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View Full Version : Edwin to the DL; Rosales Up



919191
04-28-2009, 05:20 PM
Per Fay's blog. Chip fracture in wrist. Rosales up.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a9ff5dfe3-f38c-4d1e-bc11-366e1470eead&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 05:22 PM
Maybe that explains some of his struggles.

Homer Bailey
04-28-2009, 05:23 PM
From Fay:

Breaking news: Encarnacion to DL
Posted by TomGroeschen at 4/28/2009 5:16 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

John Fay is down on the field and I am up in the pressbox -- John just called me with this info:

The Reds just placed 3B Edwin Encarnacion on the disabled list. An MRI today showed a chip fracture in Encarnacion's left wrist.

Adam Rosales has been called up from Louisville and is expected here in time for tonight's 7:10 p.m. game vs. Houston at Great American Ball Park.

We'll add more details as we get them.

SMcGavin
04-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Wow, that was unexpected. Let's hope Rosales stays hot.

Reds Fanatic
04-28-2009, 05:24 PM
For tonight's game they are going to move Hairston to 3rd and McDonald will start in left.

Homer Bailey
04-28-2009, 05:25 PM
Fay's Twitter says Rosales is expected to be at the park in time for the game.

RichRed
04-28-2009, 05:28 PM
Is Edwin about to be Pipped?

lollipopcurve
04-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Not surprised by this at all. Edwin was having "hand" problems this winter, then again the wrist bothered him in ST. He just hasn't had the same nasty snap in his swing -- more of a little uppercut that he guides through the zone. Hope they get this fixed in time for him to have most of a season.

Hairston at 3B better be very short-lived. Rosales deserves to be out there. Baker stiffed him last September, and if he sticks him on the bench again I am going to whine like a wet cat on this site, night after night.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Agreed, lollipop. Rosales should be the everyday third baseman until EdE comes back. By the way, Rosales was hitting .431/.479/.754 - 1.233 OPS in 65 atbats with Louisville.

Next, I'd send McDonald to Triple-A and callup Wes Bankston.

Sea Ray
04-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Whatever the reason, I support this move. I think this is a better team than it was yesterday

gm
04-28-2009, 05:46 PM
And I was just going to say "wouldn't it be nice if there was a 'convenient' injury to an infielder so Rosales can be called up?" the other day

but I decided to stay classy, didn't want to wish bad juju on anyone

The new "Adam era" has begun

reds44
04-28-2009, 05:47 PM
That's not good.

Benihana
04-28-2009, 05:50 PM
Hope Edwin's ok. This is the perfect tryout period for Rosales. We'll see if he's really up to task or if he's just Brandon Larson redux. If he is, I hope Edwin starts taking some flyballs in LF. If he's not, hopefully Edwin can come back as soon as possible.

Does anybody else wonder if EdE's wrist is really chipped or if this is a Dontrelle Willis DL-move?

lollipopcurve
04-28-2009, 05:57 PM
Does anybody else wonder if EdE's wrist is really chipped or if this is a Dontrelle Willis DL-move?

I think it's real. If he's back in 2 weeks, I may have doubts -- but his swing has looked a little odd to me. Think back to how he used to absolutely scorch balls down the leftfield line. It's been a while since we've seen that.

gm
04-28-2009, 06:01 PM
Does anybody else wonder if EdE's wrist is really chipped or if this is a Dontrelle Willis DL-move?

Saw this quote over on the 3b/LF thread


CINCINNATI -- Only three Reds players -- Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips and Edwin Encarnacion -- have played every inning of every game to this point.

As far as manager Dusty Baker was concerned on Monday, it would remain the case in the foreseeable future.

Both Encarnacion and Phillips have struggled to get going since the season began.

"Edwin came out early and hit today. His timing is off. He's not tired," Baker said. "It's April. It hasn't been hot yet. Phillips might need more of a mental off-day coming up here soon. We'll determine when that is. He's so valuable defensively. That's what makes it tough giving him [a day] off."

Although he leads the club in walks with 13, Encarnacion is batting .127 and is 1-for-his-past-28 after an 0-for-4 game that included leaving the bases loaded in the sixth inning of a 4-1 loss on Monday.

Baker tried to get Encarnacion extra at-bats in Spring Training, but wrist and shoulder injuries limited those chances.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=cin

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 06:09 PM
Update on Encarnacion
Posted by JohnFay at 4/28/2009 5:46 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Edwin Encarnacion hurt the wrist on his last at-bat of last night's game. But it's been bothering him since spring traininng.

"We knew something was wrong when they were throwing fastballs by him," Dusty Baker said. "Sometimes things don't show up on the x-rays."

An MRI revealed the small chip. Encarnacion will be in a cast for a week. Baker suspects he'll miss at least three weeks.

So will Adam Rosales play third in Encarnacion's absence?

"We'll see," Baker said. "He'll play. Everybody plays."

Rosales was hitting .431 at Triple-A Louisville with four home runs and 15 RBI.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a0b8bd03e-3d48-4f2b-b7ac-c6f91a8a0333&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

We'll see? Are you serious? Who is going to play over him, Jerry freaking Hairston?

HokieRed
04-28-2009, 06:13 PM
I hope EE's injury is real and also the reason he's been struggling. As much as I think Rosales deserves a chance, a recovered EE can be a real force on this club. I can't help but think this really is the explanation for EE's struggles.

dabvu2498
04-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Don't freak out just yet. Rosales did play in Louisville today. That would be a hard double header to pull off.

gm
04-28-2009, 06:15 PM
So will Adam Rosales play third in Encarnacion's absence?

"We'll see," Baker said. "He'll play. Everybody plays"

Start making those ballpark bedsheet posters, right now


"DUSTY: START 'PETE' ROSALES NOW!"


"FREE ADAM ROSALES!"


"ADAM ROSALES FOREVER
HAIRSTON JR. NEVER!"

Cyclone792
04-28-2009, 06:16 PM
It makes sense for Rosales not to start tonight considering the travel. But after tonight he needs to be starting five times a week while Encarnacion is out.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 06:16 PM
Don't freak out just yet. Rosales did play in Louisville today. That would be a hard double header to pull off.

I'm talking about tomorrow and beyond. Rosales should be the everyday third baseman until EdE returns. There is no one else on the roster more deserving than Rosales.

nate
04-28-2009, 06:17 PM
I wonder when the injury (if there is one) happened.

CrackerJack
04-28-2009, 06:30 PM
I wonder when the injury (if there is one) happened.

"Supposably" in Edwin's last AB last night.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 06:36 PM
I wonder when the injury (if there is one) happened.

Baker says it's been bothering him since spring training.

edabbs44
04-28-2009, 06:39 PM
I'm talking about tomorrow and beyond. Rosales should be the everyday third baseman until EdE returns. There is no one else on the roster more deserving than Rosales.

And if Rosales pulls a 1-25 stretch to kick off his major league stint? Should he still be trotting out there every game?

nate
04-28-2009, 06:39 PM
And if Rosales pulls a 1-25 stretch to kick off his major league stint? Should he still be trotting out there every game?

No.

He should be running!

:cool:

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 06:41 PM
And if Rosales pulls a 1-25 stretch to kick off his major league stint? Should he still be trotting out there every game?

Yeah, because he's still the best option. Who else is going to play there? Jerry Hairston Jr. has returned to being Jerry Hairston Jr. just like many expected.

membengal
04-28-2009, 06:51 PM
That explains some stuff.

And, edbabbs, they need to know what Rosales can handle. Here's a chance to find out. JHJ has a track record.

Ltlabner
04-28-2009, 06:51 PM
That explains some stuff.

And, edbabbs, they need to know what Rosales can handle. Here's a chance to find out. JHJ has a track record.

Stop it with all the logic and stuff.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 07:03 PM
It looks like Rosales will wear #23.

lollipopcurve
04-28-2009, 07:10 PM
And, edbabbs, they need to know what Rosales can handle. Here's a chance to find out. JHJ has a track record.

And that track record includes almost no time at 3B. Rosales is very likely the much better defender over there. This really is a no-brainer.

edabbs44
04-28-2009, 07:22 PM
Agree that it is a no brainer to start. But if he is brutal over, say, a 2 week period, are we still willing to blindly pencil him in to the detriment of the team?

Team Clark
04-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Maybe that explains some of his struggles.

I think it is more of an excuse than a reason. JMO.

GAC
04-28-2009, 07:40 PM
Shades of a few years ago when EE suffered an injury (hamstring?), and the rumors were flying that they fabricated it in order to send him down to AAA?

If he has a chip fracture in his wrist, then is a 15 day stint on the DL going to address it?

Blitz Dorsey
04-28-2009, 08:21 PM
I don't care the reason, just glad he's out of the lineup.

Very interested to see what Rosales will do with this opportunity.

Root Down
04-28-2009, 09:10 PM
If he has a chip fracture in his wrist, then is a 15 day stint on the DL going to address it?

I would think that it would take longer than 15 days to fix a chip fracture. I hope he gets healed up and getting healthy pulls him out of the slump.

AmarilloRed
04-28-2009, 09:16 PM
Dusty expects him to miss 3 weeks. I would think that be long enough to fix a chip fracture.

Ltlabner
04-28-2009, 09:44 PM
Agree that it is a no brainer to start. But if he is brutal over, say, a 2 week period, are we still willing to blindly pencil him in to the detriment of the team?

This team is going nowhere.

I'd rather they use this year to find out what they have in the youngsters than pretending to field a "competitive team".

I'm not suggesting Rosales should be penciled in until the end of time, however, if the choice is putting JHJ out there because you think he "helps us win ballgames" and Rosales to give him playing time, experience and to see what he can do, I'd error towards Rosales.

Jpup
04-29-2009, 08:16 AM
I'm not sure what the big sudden love for Rosales is, but whatever. I don't think he is anywhere close to a big league regular, but I hope I'm wrong. I got a feeling he is going to be a judy hitter and less than stellar defense.

The Reds need to send down McDonald and call up Gomes. Gomes should be in the lineup anytime a left hander is starting. Last night would have been the perfect time to call him up. McDonald has no business on a big league roster. He's really the only guy that makes me cringe every time I see him on my TV. Get him off of it ASAP.

Laynce Nix looks to be quite the comeback story thus far. I could see him have a good few months if he gets some time and I see that time coming soon unless Dickerson really picks it up.

919191
04-29-2009, 08:35 AM
If he has a chip fracture in his wrist, then is a 15 day stint on the DL going to address it?


If I understand the rules, EE can be on the 15 day the rest of the season.

bucksfan2
04-29-2009, 09:24 AM
If I understand the rules, EE can be on the 15 day the rest of the season.

Yea but if he were to miss the rest of the season it would be stupid to keep him on the 15 day DL. You would move him to the 60 day to free up a 40 man roster spot.

Jpup
04-29-2009, 09:38 AM
Yea but if he were to miss the rest of the season it would be stupid to keep him on the 15 day DL. You would move him to the 60 day to free up a 40 man roster spot.

you're right, but the Reds like to play short handed.

3k for you bucks.

traderumor
04-29-2009, 09:48 AM
I think EE's injury is very similar to Rodney Dangerfield's in Caddyshack. Hopefully, Adam Rosales will be our Danny :p:

Homer Bailey
04-29-2009, 11:02 AM
I think EE's injury is very similar to Rodney Dangerfield's in Caddyshack. Hopefully, Adam Rosales will be our Danny :p:

"Oh my arm! I think it's broken!"

BuckeyeRedleg
04-29-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure what the big sudden love for Rosales is, but whatever. I don't think he is anywhere close to a big league regular, but I hope I'm wrong. I got a feeling he is going to be a judy hitter and less than stellar defense.

The guy does have a minor league career OPS of .859 (1618 AB's).

A similar utility player, Jeff Keppinger, who had the reputation of being a "hitter" wherever he played sported a .797 career minor league OPS (in 2183 AB's).

Joey Votto? .861 (2553 AB's).

In fact, the only other guy in AAA or the Reds, with a better minor league OPS, is Jay Bruce (.921).

Sure, he hasn't proved anything yet at the major league level, but he hasn't turned 26 yet, and if he can put up respectable numbers (.750 -.800), I think he'll be a valuable and cheap addition to this club for the next few years. With the current struggles of this offense and the success he's achieved so far with the bat at the lower levels, I can understand the "love" given to Rosales.

durl
04-29-2009, 01:10 PM
Let's see what the kid can do. He may not be ready for the big leagues, but EE hasn't exactly been hitting like he's ready for them either. Hopefully getting his wrist fixed will help EE get his swing back. Until then, I'll be pulling for Rosales to make the most of the opportunity.

Falls City Beer
04-29-2009, 01:11 PM
Let's see what the kid can do. He may not be ready for the big leagues, but EE hasn't exactly been hitting like he's ready for them either. Hopefully getting his wrist fixed will help EE get his swing back. Until then, I'll be pulling for Rosales to make the most of the opportunity.

If Rosales is replacement level, he'll look like Willie Mays by comparison.

Blitz Dorsey
04-29-2009, 03:26 PM
The guy does have a minor league career OPS of .859 (1618 AB's).

A similar utility player, Jeff Keppinger, who had the reputation of being a "hitter" wherever he played sported a .797 career minor league OPS (in 2183 AB's).

Joey Votto? .861 (2553 AB's).

In fact, the only other guy in AAA or the Reds, with a better minor league OPS, is Jay Bruce (.921).

Sure, he hasn't proved anything yet at the major league level, but he hasn't turned 26 yet, and if he can put up respectable numbers (.750 -.800), I think he'll be a valuable and cheap addition to this club for the next few years. With the current struggles of this offense and the success he's achieved so far with the bat at the lower levels, I can understand the "love" given to Rosales.

Interesting stat comparisons. I'm anxious to see what Rosales can do (and just happy EE is out of there for now).

OnBaseMachine
04-29-2009, 05:39 PM
Encarnacion: It got worse and worse
Posted by JohnFay at 4/29/2009 5:26 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Edwin Encarnacion said that the problems with his wrist did go all the way back to spring training.

"It got worse and worse the last couple of days," he said. "That's why I went to the trainer."

Encarnacion was surprised to learn that there was a chipped bone in his wrist.

"I was surprised it was broken," he said. "But I knew something was wrong. It started hurting on every swing. I couldn't do extra work."

Encarnacion has been able to handle the fastball, but the wrist kept him from catching up with pitches even in the high 80s.

"I always hit the fastball perfect," he said. "When I can't hit the fastball, I know something is wrong."

Encarnacion went 1-for-his-last-28 before being put on the disabled list. He's in a cast. He's hoping to be able to swing the bat in two weeks.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a7530fdc5-258f-4ad1-811e-ccc31e98dea7&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Blitz Dorsey
04-29-2009, 06:14 PM
EE, how about telling somebody a little earlier next time? If it in fact goes back to spring training (which the skeptic in me says is a good way to excuse his awful performance up to this point) then a trainer should have been notified weeks ago, not days ago.

Will M
04-29-2009, 11:30 PM
A hard hit deep drive.
A run scoring single.
A walk.
A sac fly.
A couple of nice defensive plays.

Me likey!

WVPacman
04-29-2009, 11:38 PM
Its one game but I love what I see from Rosales so far... He plays the game how its supposed to be played with heart and hustle.In just one game he did more than EE did all season thus far.Don't get me wrong I like EE but if Rosales keeps playing like this then he should be our starting 3rd baseman.

How old is he?

Ron Madden
04-30-2009, 04:08 AM
Rosales had a good game. :thumbup: Let's hope he can keep it up, I wish him well.

reds44
04-30-2009, 05:05 AM
Its one game but I love what I see from Rosales so far... He plays the game how its supposed to be played with heart and hustle.In just one game he did more than EE did all season thus far.Don't get me wrong I like EE but if Rosales keeps playing like this then he should be our starting 3rd baseman.

How old is he?
No.

buckeyenut
04-30-2009, 05:32 AM
Its one game but I love what I see from Rosales so far... He plays the game how its supposed to be played with heart and hustle.In just one game he did more than EE did all season thus far.Don't get me wrong I like EE but if Rosales keeps playing like this then he should be our starting 3rd baseman.

How old is he?
Forgetting Edwin's grand slam, aren't we?

Jpup
04-30-2009, 06:58 AM
good night for Rosales, but I'll take Edwin every time. I was excited for him and the Reds, but just because he runs everywhere he goes, doesn't make him a better player. He's a little hyper, huh? ;)

I wish him the best, but I will be glad to see Edwin back in there healthy. I expect big things when he comes back. I find it strange how he has a bad month and everyone is ready to send him to AAA. Some were even wanting to send Edinson Volquez to AAA after his last start. Well, that was a little off considering his brilliant start last night. It looks like someone finally got in his ear and told him to use his fastball and change up and quit messing with that silly curve so much.

deltachi8
04-30-2009, 07:17 AM
Edwin Encarnacion, Redszone's new Adam Dunn. It had to be someone.


Adam Rosales, Redszones next hope for a reincarnation of Pete Rose....it had to be someone...

cincrazy
04-30-2009, 07:22 AM
I like Rosales is catching a little bit of unfair heat. I don't think the guy should be frowned upon because he runs hard to first base. Some in the fan base love him for that, but what's wrong with that? Look, the guy isn't Pete Rose. There will never be another Pete Rose. But Rosales can hit. And he can field. And that's all I care about.

Jpup
04-30-2009, 07:22 AM
Edwin Encarnacion, Redszone's new Adam Dunn. It had to be someone.

That's not even fair. No one is saying Edwin is the player Adam Dunn is.

Jpup
04-30-2009, 07:23 AM
I like Rosales is catching a little bit of unfair heat. I don't think the guy should be frowned upon because he runs hard to first base. Some in the fan base love him for that, but what's wrong with that? Look, the guy isn't Pete Rose. There will never be another Pete Rose. But Rosales can hit. And he can field. And that's all I care about.

small sample?

deltachi8
04-30-2009, 07:30 AM
That's not even fair. No one is saying Edwin is the player Adam Dunn is.

Nope, but he will beat up just like the former LF was.

membengal
04-30-2009, 07:32 AM
EE needs to hit. He does, people will relax. He doesn't, and the heat is fair. Same for JHJ. Dickerson, Phillips, anyone.

Redhook
04-30-2009, 07:50 AM
EE needs to hit. He does, people will relax. He doesn't, and the heat is fair.

Exactly. Every year it's the same thing with him. Cold start, takes a break, then heats up. Is he ever going to be the consistent hitter he should/could be? I'm seriously doubting it. I'm not giving up on him by any means, but I don't see him taking that next step for whatever reason.

Falls City Beer
04-30-2009, 07:53 AM
EdE has Aaron Boone syndrome with the stick. Cold for months at a time. He'd be great if he could shuttle between AA and the majors based on his hot and cold streaks; unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, so we have to suffer with his cold months (not weeks or days).

cincrazy
04-30-2009, 07:57 AM
small sample?

I'm going by his minor league numbers. I'm not reaching any ridiculous conclusions after one game in the majors. I just like what the guy brings to the table. He's earned his chance, and he deserves a chance.

Razor Shines
04-30-2009, 07:59 AM
EdE has Aaron Boone syndrome with the stick. Cold for months at a time. He'd be great if he could shuttle between AA and the majors based on his hot and cold streaks; unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, so we have to suffer with his cold months (not weeks or days).

There's a whole thread that says you're wrong about that.

Ltlabner
04-30-2009, 08:08 AM
But Rosales can hit minor league pitching, and one night worth of MLB pitching.

I revised your quote to be more accurate.

Falls City Beer
04-30-2009, 08:52 AM
There's a whole thread that says you're wrong about that.

Well, no. I think what was "proven" was that "slump" needed to be defined.

durl
04-30-2009, 09:05 AM
Welcome to the bigs, Mr. Rosales. You're off to a good start. Here's hoping it continues.

It's great to see another player having fun playing the game. I know it probably has nothing to do with how a player performs, but EE always looks like he's bored. Rosales looked thrilled to be on the field and played like it.

traderumor
04-30-2009, 09:32 AM
One thing I noticed about Rosales last night came on the single up the middle to drive in the first run. He really attacked the ball with his stroke, a nice short, aggressive stroke.

As for "Edwin needs to start hitting," of course he does, but I am convinced now more than ever that there is really not a whole lot he can do about it, short of what he has--be patient enough to take the walk when you don't get a pitch you can handle. I know there are a lot of folks who would say "make adjustments" or "take extra BP" or "act like he cares," but I'm guessing that he'll come back, get a few hits, hit a few HRs (see Jay Bruce) and everyone will be loving on him again...well until he throws the ball away on a routine grounder, that is.

cincrazy
04-30-2009, 10:23 AM
I revised your quote to be more accurate.

You don't know that as a fact. At least he can hit ONE nights worth of major league pitching, which can't be said about Edwin nowadays. He deserves a chance. Edwin has done absolutely nothing to deserve the 3B job without any competition.

Sea Ray
04-30-2009, 10:28 AM
good night for Rosales, but I'll take Edwin every time. I was excited for him and the Reds, but just because he runs everywhere he goes, doesn't make him a better player. He's a little hyper, huh? ;)

I wish him the best, but I will be glad to see Edwin back in there healthy.

I don't know. Last night in the 8th inning Rosales comes up with no outs and the bases loaded. He has the patience to take three straight balls. Do you think EE would have that sort of patience in such a situation? My guess is he's so anxious to drive in those runs, he would have swung at one of those. Rosales gave us some real impressive ABs.

I'm not sure that Adam is going to be stellar as a starting 3B but I don't understand the love for EE. The best thing he ever had going for him was "he is young". Well that only works if you show improvement. I don't think he'll ever be an avg starting 3B package if you combine hitting and defense. With that in mind I'd just as soon start looking elsewhere. If at the end of the day we're stuck with sub standard production, I'll take Rosales energy over EE's sulking anytime.

GAC
04-30-2009, 10:37 AM
I just hope A-Ros (thats pronounced "arrows". We like it in chat) gets the opportunity to play consistently (over JHJ), and makes the most of it. He's definitely excitable. Bet he had goosebumps all last night.

But what happens if this kid plays exceptionally well while EE is out (for however long that may be)? What happens when EE returns to the lineup? Do they find a way to keep A-Ros in the lineup longer by sending EE on a rehab assignment?

Going to be a sticky situation for this management if A-Ros lives up to, or exceeds, expectations.

Chip R
04-30-2009, 10:42 AM
I just hope A-Ros (thats pronounced "arrows". We like it in chat) gets the opportunity to play consistently (over JHJ), and makes the most of it. He's definitely excitable. Bet he had goosebumps all last night.

But what happens if this kid plays exceptionally well while EE is out (for however long that may be)? What happens when EE returns to the lineup? Do they find a way to keep A-Ros in the lineup longer by sending EE on a rehab assignment?

Going to be a sticky situation for this management if A-Ros lives up to, or exceeds, expectations.


Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Janish had a couple of hits - including the game winner - in his debut last year. This may be the high point of Rosales' career.

OnBaseMachine
04-30-2009, 11:27 AM
If Rosales plays well while EdE is out, I'd have EdE start working out in left field while on his rehab. I'm a huge Edwin fan, but I like Rosales and I think he's capable of holding down 3B at the big league level. In the minors, Rosales hit .291/.365/.494 - .859. I think he's capable of posting an .800ish OPS and playing good defense at third.

Reds fans are going to fall in love with Rosales. I met him at Redsfest, he's a super nice guy. He makes Sean Casey look shy.

TRF
04-30-2009, 11:30 AM
I think all that has been proven, in both threads is that EE has a broken wrist.

It wasn't a slump it was an injury. Now he should have mentioned it sooner, and that's on him. But I'm not worried about EE's ability to hit a ball.

bucksfan2
04-30-2009, 11:42 AM
I don't know. Last night in the 8th inning Rosales comes up with no outs and the bases loaded. He has the patience to take three straight balls. Do you think EE would have that sort of patience in such a situation? My guess is he's so anxious to drive in those runs, he would have swung at one of those. Rosales gave us some real impressive ABs.

I only saw two of his at bats. I saw his drive to the warning track and his 8th inning at bat. What impressed me on his long fly ball out was the power he has in his short compact stroke. (Did anyone notice Carlos Lee trying to chase that ball down, his defense is horrid!) On his RBI sac fly what I liked about the at bat is that he knew exactly what situation he was in. He knew a deep fly ball would score a much needed insurance run. He worked the count, didn't get a pitch he could drive, but got a pitch he could lift to the outfield.

Rosales reminds me of a game. Don't get me wrong he has enough skills to play professional baseball, but he seems like a guy who not only brings energy, but brings a firm fundamental knowledge of the game.

bucksfan2
04-30-2009, 11:56 AM
I think all that has been proven, in both threads is that EE has a broken wrist.

It wasn't a slump it was an injury. Now he should have mentioned it sooner, and that's on him. But I'm not worried about EE's ability to hit a ball.

Apparently he hurt his wrist on a swing the day before he went on the DL. Don't know how truthful that is but its what I heard the Reds say.

nate
04-30-2009, 01:06 PM
I just hope A-Ros (thats pronounced "arrows". We like it in chat) gets the opportunity to play consistently (over JHJ), and makes the most of it. He's definitely excitable. Bet he had goosebumps all last night.


I hope A-Ros makes the other team quiver.

:cool:

TRF
04-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Apparently he hurt his wrist on a swing the day before he went on the DL. Don't know how truthful that is but its what I heard the Reds say.

I read today where he said it's been hurting since ST. That's what EE said, not the Reds.

TRF
04-30-2009, 01:25 PM
I don't know. Last night in the 8th inning Rosales comes up with no outs and the bases loaded. He has the patience to take three straight balls. Do you think EE would have that sort of patience in such a situation? My guess is he's so anxious to drive in those runs, he would have swung at one of those. Rosales gave us some real impressive ABs.

A healthy EE might have hit a HR too.

I like Rosales, always have. I was hoping he had the range to stick at SS. Rosales can hope he has at least a good a year the Edwin had at the plate last year.

bucksfan2
04-30-2009, 01:32 PM
I read today where he said it's been hurting since ST. That's what EE said, not the Reds.

Yea I just read that in today's paper.

TRF
04-30-2009, 01:38 PM
BoxingRed on the SunDeck wanted me to point out EE's line with the bases loaded in his career: 386/457/702

That's not too shabby.

reds44
04-30-2009, 01:43 PM
BoxingRed on the SunDeck wanted me to point out EE's line with the bases loaded in his career: 386/457/702

That's not too shabby.
Nope he would have been too anxious to take pitches last night.

TRF
04-30-2009, 01:45 PM
Nope he would have been too anxious to take pitches last night.

That's sarcasm right?

reds44
04-30-2009, 01:49 PM
Of course.

Sea Ray
04-30-2009, 02:58 PM
A healthy EE might have hit a HR too.

I like Rosales, always have. I was hoping he had the range to stick at SS. Rosales can hope he has at least a good a year the Edwin had at the plate last year.

I suppose a healthy Juan Castro might have hit a HR. What's your point in making that statement?

Ltlabner
04-30-2009, 04:28 PM
You don't know that as a fact.

Huh?

It's absolute a fact. ARO has hit minor league pitching and MLB pitching last night. That's what we know about the guy at this time. How is that not a fact? It's all we know thus far.

You claimed "he can hit". Let's give him several hundred MLB AB's before we declare "he can hit" shall we?

This city has a penchant for pinning it's collective hopes on the "next big thing" at AAA. He might turn out to be a good player. But one good night at the ballpark doesn't mean "he can hit".

bucksfan2
04-30-2009, 04:34 PM
It's absolute a fact. ARO has hit minor league pitching and MLB pitching last night. That's what we know about the guy at this time. How is that not a fact? It's all we know thus far.


Actually it isn't a fact. Rosales was called up to the majors in 2008 and saw action in 18 games. It isn't much to go off of, and it was highly unsuccessful, but there is more to go off of than his minor league career and his one game last night.

Sea Ray
04-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Huh?

It's absolute a fact. ARO has hit minor league pitching and MLB pitching last night. That's what we know about the guy at this time. How is that not a fact? It's all we know thus far.

You claimed "he can hit". Let's give him several hundred MLB AB's before we declare "he can hit" shall we?

This city has a penchant for pinning it's collective hopes on the "next big thing" at AAA. He might turn out to be a good player. But one good night at the ballpark doesn't mean "he can hit".

I don't think that's what Cincrazy is saying. He said this:


I'm going by his minor league numbers. I'm not reaching any ridiculous conclusions after one game in the majors. I just like what the guy brings to the table. He's earned his chance, and he deserves a chance.

Now is that really an unreasonable statement? Does that sound like he's "pinning our collective hopes" on Rosales?

Ltlabner
04-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Actually it isn't a fact. Rosales was called up to the majors in 2008 and saw action in 18 games. It isn't much to go off of, and it was highly unsuccessful, but there is more to go off of than his minor league career and his one game last night.

The original post definitively stated that the kid can hit as if it were a given fact, and ARO had a lengthy track record of success.

All I did was point out that the kid has hit at AAA and one night in the bigs (forgetting about his 18 game "campaign" from 2008).

He may very well "be able to hit" but it's beyond premature to state that he can do so at this time.

cincrazy
04-30-2009, 05:59 PM
The original post definitively stated that the kid can hit as if it were a given fact, and ARO had a lengthy track record of success.

All I did was point out that the kid has hit at AAA and one night in the bigs (forgetting about his 18 game "campaign" from 2008).

He may very well "be able to hit" but it's beyond premature to state that he can do so at this time.

Really this is just a silly war of words with both of us misunderstanding each other. Re-reading your comment, I can see I probably misinterpreted it. My initial thought in reading it was that you were saying the guy can't hit MLB pitching. That's why I said "not a fact."

And I'm not pinning false hopes on anyone, but don't you think it's reasonable to expect these guys to get up here and WIN, which is what they're paid to do?

Ron Madden
05-01-2009, 03:32 AM
I don't know. Last night in the 8th inning Rosales comes up with no outs and the bases loaded. He has the patience to take three straight balls. Do you think EE would have that sort of patience in such a situation? My guess is he's so anxious to drive in those runs, he would have swung at one of those. Rosales gave us some real impressive ABs.

I'm not sure that Adam is going to be stellar as a starting 3B but I don't understand the love for EE. The best thing he ever had going for him was "he is young". Well that only works if you show improvement. I don't think he'll ever be an avg starting 3B package if you combine hitting and defense. With that in mind I'd just as soon start looking elsewhere. If at the end of the day we're stuck with sub standard production, I'll take Rosales energy over EE's sulking anytime.


Sulking?

:confused:

reds44
05-01-2009, 03:45 AM
Sulking?

:confused:
It's so hard for me to root for guys like Rosales because of the love they get for acting like spazs on the baseball field. Adam Rosales running to first base on a walk does not make him a better baseball player than Edwin Encarnacion.

mth123
05-01-2009, 04:00 AM
I really like Adam Rosales. I recognized him as a sleeper in the Reds organization a couple of years ago and thought he had a chance to contribute at the major league level. Small market teams like the Reds need to have a farm system that can churn out guys like Rosales every year. Having lower cost, useful players coming up from the farm and producing in part-time and bench roles for the minimum is a huge factor for a small market team's survival. It beats having to sign or acquire aging vets of the Hairston/Conine/Aurilia variety every year. Two or three kids like Rosales on the bench can save a small market team $5 to $10 Million per year in payroll cost that can be allocated to the higher production guys. The Reds went years without producing many guys like him and its nice to see a system loaded with players who can come up and fit in major league roles. I hope we see the end of the Reds paying $2 or $3 Million per year to declining vets whose only advantage is in name recognition.

OTOH, we need to also prevent ourselves from getting carried away and placing too many expectations on these guys. I think Rosales will be a fine Reds contributer for a few years while his cost is under control. I hope he develops into more than that, but it is not a given by ay means. Kids coming up usually have a projected ceiling for a reason. I have my doubts that Rosales will ever put up a season that is as good as the one EdE produced in 2008. EdE has not produced this year (he has a broken wrist after all) but he is still the most likely guy not named Bruce or Votto (or maybe Alonso) to be an .800 OPS bat year in and year out. This team needs EdE to produce. As much as I like Dickerson, Rosales, Hanigan, etc. these are players who project to be more role player than load bearer. The guys that the next wave of minor leaguers should be pushing off the roster are limited producers who have little or no ceiling left and cost more than is necessary (Hairston and Lincoln are the best examples on the current roster) not the higher ceiling young veterans like EdE.

Jpup
05-01-2009, 05:37 AM
It's so hard for me to root for guys like Rosales because of the love they get for acting like spazs on the baseball field. Adam Rosales running to first base on a walk does not make him a better baseball player than Edwin Encarnacion.

exactly. I like the dude, but he's a little out there IMO. It's kinda entertaining though...for a minute.

edabbs44
05-01-2009, 07:43 AM
It's so hard for me to root for guys like Rosales because of the love they get for acting like spazs on the baseball field. Adam Rosales running to first base on a walk does not make him a better baseball player than Edwin Encarnacion.

So he gets a negative mark for hustling and running down the line?

Ltlabner
05-01-2009, 07:58 AM
It's so hard for me to root for guys like Rosales because of the love they get for acting like spazs on the baseball field. Adam Rosales running to first base on a walk does not make him a better baseball player than Edwin Encarnacion.

It's the age old argument regarding "hustle".

Some people really put stock in pointless things like running to your position, or running to first on a walk. Somehow it identifies players with "character" which apparently is a very critical component of scoring runs.

Other of us don't care a bit if you walk, sprint, crawl or skip down the line on your BB, as long as you are avoiding outs and acquiring bases.

edabbs44
05-01-2009, 08:03 AM
It's the age old argument regarding "hustle".

Some people really put stock in pointless things like running to your position, or running to first on a walk.

Other of us don't care a bit if you walk, sprint, crawl or skip down the line on your BB, as long as you are avoiding outs and acquiring bases.

I think that this is isn't a very fair statement. Even though some people probably do, no one should get all giddy about the sole act of running to first base after ball 4. However, that action is typically indicative of a ballplayer who hustles throughout every part of a game which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather have a guy who runs down the line on every ground ball, pop-up or strike 3 that gets by the catcher than someone who doesn't.

"Walking" to first after a walk isn't a bad thing. But no one should get a black mark for running to first after walking just because he looks like a "spaz".

osuceltic
05-01-2009, 08:48 AM
It's so hard for me to root for guys like Rosales because of the love they get for acting like spazs on the baseball field. Adam Rosales running to first base on a walk does not make him a better baseball player than Edwin Encarnacion.

This sentiment (echoed already by others) leaves me speechless.

Only at RedsZone.

bucksfan2
05-01-2009, 08:52 AM
It's the age old argument regarding "hustle".

Some people really put stock in pointless things like running to your position, or running to first on a walk. Somehow it identifies players with "character" which apparently is a very critical component of scoring runs.

Other of us don't care a bit if you walk, sprint, crawl or skip down the line on your BB, as long as you are avoiding outs and acquiring bases.

I find this notion of "hustle" interesting. The group of people you described in bolded part have turned "hustle" into a negative connotation. I just don't understand how "hustle" is a bad thing. If Rosales can hack it. If it turns out that his skill level is that of an every day regular then his hustle will only enhance his game. It will only make his game better.

I think this city needs to get over the Pete Rose Syndrome. We need to stop looking at players like Ryan Freel and Chris Stynes as building block players because they run and play hard like Rose did. Hustle can't over come a lack of talent. But its to early to say whether Rosales has or doesn't have big league talent. All I know is that I enjoyed watching him play in his first game. He brought energy to the team. He may become a fan favorite but that will soon pass if he doesn't have the talent to hack it.

deltachi8
05-01-2009, 08:55 AM
I find this notion of "hustle" interesting. The group of people you described in bolded part have turned "hustle" into a negative connotation. I just don't understand how "hustle" is a bad thing. If Rosales can hack it. If it turns out that his skill level is that of an every day regular then his hustle will only enhance his game. It will only make his game better.

I think this city needs to get over the Pete Rose Syndrome. We need to stop looking at players like Ryan Freel and Chris Stynes as building block players because they run and play hard like Rose did. Hustle can't over come a lack of talent. But its to early to say whether Rosales has or doesn't have big league talent. All I know is that I enjoyed watching him play in his first game. He brought energy to the team. He may become a fan favorite but that will soon pass if he doesn't have the talent to hack it.

Well said.

If AR produces, I'll like him and want him on the team I root for. If he can't, I'll wish him well in Louisville. It has nothing to do with his "hustle", it has everything to do with his talent and production....that's what matters.

Ltlabner
05-01-2009, 09:15 AM
I just don't understand how "hustle" is a bad thing.

Mostly because there are a group of fans who mistake running around the field like a crackhead spaz for talent. They can't decipher the difference between "energy" and an actual, discernible skill that creates/prevents runs on the baseball diamond. Apparently utterly pointless things like looking intense on the field actual have a tinkers damn to do with acquiring bases and avoiding outs.

In Cincinnati this wrongheaded notion is exacerbated by the #14 syndrome. The guy actually had some talents in addition to his hustle. It wasn't like he was a cross-eyed goof who couldn't hit a beach-ball with an ironing board to begin with. But because the Charlie Hustle saga started here, for some reason, any kid who sprints to his position is automatically attributed some mystical ability to rise and overcome.

Some people apparently think that energy, hustle and spirit are what leads to production. If a player produces on the field, and just so happens to be an exciting, energetic and engaging game so much the better in my book. But it's a rare, rare, rare, rare, rare, rare, rare player who's spirit, enthusiasm, and determination make up for a lack of real talent.

I had a sales manager once who subscribed to the go-gettem attitude. He actually felt if you looked someone in the eye, gave them a firm hardy handshake and dropped your best trial close on them you'd get the order. If the inside of your car was really clean, that helped too. In 9 years I never figured out what the hell any of that had to do with selling.

nate
05-01-2009, 09:26 AM
I think the point being made is that tools > hustle. Hustle isn't bad but hustle at the exclusion of real baseball skill is no way to build a winning team.

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 09:28 AM
I think the point being made is that tools > hustle. Hustle isn't bad but hustle at the exclusion of real baseball skill is no way to build a winning team.

Good way of putting it. I think it's really, really unfair that some people get grilled around here for complimenting someone's hustle. It's really ridiculous. Nobody is saying Adam Rosales is Pete Rose. But the guy LOVES the game. And when you see that, it's easy to root for someone like that.

TRF
05-01-2009, 09:31 AM
I suppose a healthy Juan Castro might have hit a HR. What's your point in making that statement?

no, a healthy Castro isn't likely to.

A healthy EE, with the bases loaded is a dangerous thing to a pitcher.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 09:41 AM
Nothing wrong with hustle at all.

Even better when it's complimented with talent.

Rosales has both.

nate
05-01-2009, 09:52 AM
Good way of putting it. I think it's really, really unfair that some people get grilled around here for complimenting someone's hustle. It's really ridiculous. Nobody is saying Adam Rosales is Pete Rose. But the guy LOVES the game. And when you see that, it's easy to root for someone like that.

I think it's unfair that some get grilled for complimenting a player's skills because others perceive that player doesn't hustle.

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 09:54 AM
I think it's unfair that some get grilled for complimenting a player's skills because others perceive that player doesn't hustle.

And I agree with that. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. I agree that tools obviously matter more than hustle. All I'm saying is when you have tools AND hustle like Rosales, it's a good thing.

osuceltic
05-01-2009, 10:36 AM
I think it's unfair that some get grilled for complimenting a player's skills because others perceive that player doesn't hustle.

The frustrating thing about a lack of hustle is it undermines great skill. Whether a player is a marginal grinder or a superstar, he can be better if he hustles. A failure to hustle is an insult to every player who busts his tail trying to reach the majors and succeed there.

Lack of hustle also is a team-killer. Teammates see it and resent it. It becomes contagious and fractures clubhouses. There is no stat for that, but it eventually affects performance beyond that of the lollygagger. Conversely, hustle is contagious. Energy players can energize teammates. It's not the act of running to first after a walk. It's the share philosophy that for these nine innings, we're going to run as hard and play as hard and work as hard as we can to win this game.

edabbs44
05-01-2009, 10:47 AM
The frustrating thing about a lack of hustle is it undermines great skill. Whether a player is a marginal grinder or a superstar, he can be better if he hustles. A failure to hustle is an insult to every player who busts his tail trying to reach the majors and succeed there.

Lack of hustle also is a team-killer. Teammates see it and resent it. It becomes contagious and fractures clubhouses. There is no stat for that, but it eventually affects performance beyond that of the lollygagger. Conversely, hustle is contagious. Energy players can energize teammates. It's not the act of running to first after a walk. It's the share philosophy that for these nine innings, we're going to run as hard and play as hard and work as hard as we can to win this game.

Extremely accurate.

MississippiRed
05-01-2009, 10:53 AM
The frustrating thing about a lack of hustle is it undermines great skill. Whether a player is a marginal grinder or a superstar, he can be better if he hustles. A failure to hustle is an insult to every player who busts his tail trying to reach the majors and succeed there.

Lack of hustle also is a team-killer. Teammates see it and resent it. It becomes contagious and fractures clubhouses. There is no stat for that, but it eventually affects performance beyond that of the lollygagger. Conversely, hustle is contagious. Energy players can energize teammates. It's not the act of running to first after a walk. It's the share philosophy that for these nine innings, we're going to run as hard and play as hard and work as hard as we can to win this game.

I agree with this. I believe it was Earl Weaver who said the game is hard, but anyone can play a little better by hustling (obviously paraphrased).

TRF
05-01-2009, 10:55 AM
I think people apply the term "lack of hustle" too much. EE doesn't get all fiery like Tejada so he has a lack of hustle. How exactly is hustle defined? Does Votto have more or less than Bruce? Does Taveras have a lot of hustle? does it make up for his anemic bat?

EE doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He's a cool customer. And when he's healthy, he can flat out rake. Once his wrist is healed and he's done his rehab assignment, I'll have no problem watching Rosales go to the bench or AAA.

Sea Ray
05-01-2009, 10:57 AM
EE doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He's a cool customer. And when he's healthy, he can flat out rake. Once his wrist is healed and he's done his rehab assignment, I'll have no problem watching Rosales go to the bench or AAA.

If Rosales is hitting .300 6 weeks from now do you sit him when EE comes back?

forfreelin04
05-01-2009, 11:14 AM
I think people apply the term "lack of hustle" too much. EE doesn't get all fiery like Tejada so he has a lack of hustle. How exactly is hustle defined? Does Votto have more or less than Bruce? Does Taveras have a lot of hustle? does it make up for his anemic bat?

EE doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He's a cool customer. And when he's healthy, he can flat out rake. Once his wrist is healed and he's done his rehab assignment, I'll have no problem watching Rosales go to the bench or AAA.


Hustle isn't defined. It is observed. Plus, it is only truly observed when their is a lack of; or more of (Rosales). It's hard to find answer to the amount of "hustle" of the other players because they do not do more or less than the status quo.

In regards to Taveras, he does have alot of hustle. Don't you see him run down those fly balls when he takes those terrible routes? ;)

IMO, the argument over who is better Rosales or EdE is obvious. Right now, at this moment, there is no better at the 3rd base postion for the Reds than Adam Rosales. Not just because Ede is on the DL, but because he wasn't hitting and his fielding was still average at best. You play the hot hand for the team. If Rosales never quits hitting, there is no reason to give EdE his job back. I, for one, hope he does. I do because I want my players hitting and I don't care who that player happens to be. (Even if the hot hitter doesn't hustle!)

I think some here have a preference for a player over what's better for the team and winning.

bucksfan2
05-01-2009, 11:20 AM
I think people apply the term "lack of hustle" too much. EE doesn't get all fiery like Tejada so he has a lack of hustle. How exactly is hustle defined? Does Votto have more or less than Bruce? Does Taveras have a lot of hustle? does it make up for his anemic bat?

EE doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He's a cool customer. And when he's healthy, he can flat out rake. Once his wrist is healed and he's done his rehab assignment, I'll have no problem watching Rosales go to the bench or AAA.

I think you hit on something. There is an issue between perception and reality. I don't think anyone would bash EE for apparent lack of hustle.

I would be lying if I said that I didn't think lack of hustle was a problem last year. Jr is the player that stands out in my mind because people just accepted the fact that he wasn't going to bust his tail down to first base on a routine ground ball in order to save his body. For the most part I was ok with it because a healthy Jr was more important than a close out. But there was a play this season that really got me thinking. I was listening on the radio and with 2 outs Jay Bruce hit a tapper down towards the 1b area. He beat the throw out and the announcers said if he didn't bust his tail right out of the box it would have been an out. I can't remember if Bruce scored but I know he ended up on third base and IIRC two more batters stepped to the plate that inning. Even if Bruce doesn't score how many more pitches does the starter have to throw? That hustle play may be the difference between the starting pitcher going 7 or getting chased earlier in the game. It may not make an immediate impact but its impact will be felt as the game progresses.

Will M
05-01-2009, 11:22 AM
If Rosales is hitting .300 6 weeks from now do you sit him when EE comes back?

no.

Rosales has about six weeks to audition for a major league starting job. if he just does ok he will be a bench player going forward. however if he plays well then EE moves to 1B, LF or another team.

imo EE is not a major league third baseman & never will be.

TRF
05-01-2009, 11:24 AM
If Rosales is hitting .300 6 weeks from now do you sit him when EE comes back?

If Bruce is hitting .250 6 weeks from now and Bankston, Dorn or even Stubbs is tearing up AAA do you option Bruce and bring up the hot hand?

Yes, you turn 3B over to EE the starter.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 11:25 AM
If Bruce is hitting .250 6 weeks from now and Bankston, Dorn or even Stubbs is tearing up AAA do you option Bruce and bring up the hot hand?

Yes, you turn 3B over to EE the starter.

Not quite the same thing.

Will M
05-01-2009, 11:27 AM
when he's healthy, he can flat out rake.


uh, no.

in 5 seasons EE has an OPS+ of 100. last years was 106. he is an average offensive major league player. this would be fine if he could play 3B defensively. if he can't then he is a bench player or RH part of a 1B or LF platoon.

osuceltic
05-01-2009, 11:32 AM
Not quite the same thing.

Or even close.

If that scenario plays out and Rosales is performing well and they bench him in favor of EE, you might have a riot on your hands in that clubhouse.

If Rosales is playing well when EE comes back, EE better start shagging balls in LF. And that's not a bad thing. It might free his mind a little and potentially fill the gaping maw at that position.

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 11:32 AM
If Bruce is hitting .250 6 weeks from now and Bankston, Dorn or even Stubbs is tearing up AAA do you option Bruce and bring up the hot hand?

Yes, you turn 3B over to EE the starter.

I disagree with that my friend. I don't think EE has earned the right to be the starter without question.

Ltlabner
05-01-2009, 11:44 AM
The obvious problem with hustle, which has been discussed time and time again, is that it's utterly unquantifiable and nearly everybody's definition of what hustle means is different. Then you must consider that we see 3 hours of a players work day per night. Who knows what he's doing before and after the games to improve himself.

I'd much rather have the guy who spends hours reviewing tape, working with the coaching staff, going into the cage, spending time conditioning and shagging balls (but looks like a sour-puss on the field) over the guy who runs around like a schizo.

But in the final analysis, "hustle" is an amorphous quality at best and utterly useless at worst. You judge a player on what he does not how he looks doing it.

Ltlabner
05-01-2009, 11:59 AM
By the way, hustle isn't contagious, it's annoying. It's the new guy in the company that tries to hard to impress, goes out of his way to get noticed and shows up early where there's really no reason to.

Hard work, on the other hand, combined with talent? That's what I want on my team.

TRF
05-01-2009, 11:59 AM
uh, no.

in 5 seasons EE has an OPS+ of 100. last years was 106. he is an average offensive major league player. this would be fine if he could play 3B defensively. if he can't then he is a bench player or RH part of a 1B or LF platoon.

1st, he's still very young, just a year older than Votto.

2nd, over the last three years, not counting 2009 he has a .793 OPS against RH pitching, .847 vs LH pitching. in 2008 it was .765 vs RH, .908 vs LH.

he can hit. some guys take longer. and by longer i mean 26-27, not 30.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:01 PM
There's not an either/or in this hustle/talent discussion. Talent is necessary and almost always sufficient; hustle is neither necessary nor sufficient. Though I do know that certain organizations get hustle out of their players at all times where other organizations settle for minimal effort.

reds44
05-01-2009, 12:02 PM
So he gets a negative mark for hustling and running down the line?
No, it has absolutely nothing to do with Rosales and everything to do with meathead Reds fans.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2009, 12:06 PM
Nothing wrong with hustle at all.

Even better when it's complimented with talent.

Rosales has both.

Yep.

I'm not one to get fascinated with hustle, but it's fun to watch when a guy actually has some talent like Rosales does.

TRF
05-01-2009, 12:07 PM
I disagree with that my friend. I don't think EE has earned the right to be the starter without question.

Bruce has? how? I'm not saying he shouldn't be the starter in RF, buy how did he earn it. Did he have a better year than EE in 2008? Did Jay Bruce magically turn into a can't miss prospect ala Griffey, ARod et al? Bruce had a pretty interesting year in the field in 2008. he didn't out hit EE. Why is he annointed as owning RF while EE is now being referred to as a RH platoon/bench player.

really not getting that.

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 12:08 PM
No, it has absolutely nothing to do with Rosales and everything to do with meathead Reds fans.

Yeah, because other fan bases aren't the same way. I mean, right? Just Reds fans. Of course. The ignorant ones, of course.

reds44
05-01-2009, 12:11 PM
Yeah, because other fan bases aren't the same way. I mean, right? Just Reds fans. Of course. The ignorant ones, of course.
Did I say that?

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 12:15 PM
Did I say that?

Maybe I overreacted, and if so I apologize. I just didn't appreciate the meathead comment. I'm sure it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but it's demeaning and unnecessary.

There isn't a mathematical formula to determine what hustle is, so to some it doesn't exist and doesn't matter. I just disagree with that. I don't think anyone is stupid. I don't think anyone is less knowledgable about the game for thinking that. I just disagree with it.

reds44
05-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Hustle doesn't make a good player, talent does. Nobody has ever made an all-star game off of hustle alone.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:18 PM
Hustle doesn't make a good player, talent does. Nobody has ever made an all-star game off of hustle alone.

Barry Larkin was talented, but he was fiercely disciplined too. And self-discipline is a kissing cousin of hustle.

cincrazy
05-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Hustle doesn't make a good player, talent does. Nobody has ever made an all-star game off of hustle alone.

I COMPLETELY agree with that. There's no question about it. But I think what myself and others are trying to say is that hustle can help. Hustle can make the difference in a close game. To me, hustle is hard work. If you're busting your tail down the line on a grounder into the hole, you're working hard. A roster full of hustlers isn't going to win you a championship. Most would say Manny doesn't hustle, yet he's one of the greatest hitters of our generation. But it can make a difference in crucial situations.

bucksfan2
05-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Hustle doesn't make a good player, talent does. Nobody has ever made an all-star game off of hustle alone.

No one has ever made the big leagues without talent.

I just don't get the idea that if someone plays with energy and "hustles" somehow he becomes less talented and a smoke and mirrors type player.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:25 PM
I just don't get the idea that if someone plays with energy and "hustles" somehow he becomes less talented and a smoke and mirrors type player.


And don't kid yourself: this IS the argument being made. If a player hustles, he must be overcompensating for something.

Pretty blunt-edged argument, IMO.

Ltlabner
05-01-2009, 01:17 PM
And don't kid yourself: this IS the argument being made. If a player hustles, he must be overcompensating for something.


Actually no, that's not the argument being made. Thanks for playing.

The argument being made, at least by myself, is that hustle is dandy but too many fans, especially in Cincinnati (1) hyper fixate on hustle and (2) ascribe goofy things as hustle such as running to your position (3) equate hustle with production.

westofyou
05-01-2009, 01:20 PM
No one has ever made the big leagues without talent.


http://static.baseballtoaster.com/blogs/cardboardgods/images/2007/HerbWashington75.jpg

nate
05-01-2009, 02:34 PM
The frustrating thing about a lack of hustle is it undermines great skill. Whether a player is a marginal grinder or a superstar, he can be better if he hustles. A failure to hustle is an insult to every player who busts his tail trying to reach the majors and succeed there.

Lack of hustle also is a team-killer. Teammates see it and resent it. It becomes contagious and fractures clubhouses. There is no stat for that, but it eventually affects performance beyond that of the lollygagger. Conversely, hustle is contagious. Energy players can energize teammates. It's not the act of running to first after a walk. It's the share philosophy that for these nine innings, we're going to run as hard and play as hard and work as hard as we can to win this game.

Totally awesome!

It's really not what I was talking about.

RedlegJake
05-01-2009, 03:56 PM
Hustle in guys is a personality quality that has nothing- NOTHING - to do with their innate physical talent. Take that hustle away - the "goofy" little things like running to their position, running out walks etc and I think that player's game gets hurt. Rosales types, or Freels, or Sabos, or Roses don't do that stuff to impress people, they do it because it's in their nature - they are the hyper physical types. They'd be the irritating guy in the beer softball league who hoots and hollers constantly and does jumping jacks in the outfield between pitches. If you could peek at them as kids they were probably the tykes who never quit moving until they dropped to sleep. Fans do seem to love these guys because it seems they are trying harder. They aren't really - they're just doing that stuff because it's who they are. For some reason it's looked on as a sign that they care more or something. These guys use that energy output to drive themselves, not anyone else. I do believe there are guys who slack off but that is not lack of hustle - that's another character flaw altogether. Most guys are busting their butts whether they make it look effortless and or "hustled" and hard. Hustle as such is fun to watch but the talent in the guy who is "hustling" in that Sabo/Rose/Rosales/Freel (to give a wide range of abilities) mold stands on its own. I suspect that if you tried to make those players stop the "goofiness" and running everywhere you'd diminish their production. Because you'd alter who they are as a person and athlete. And trying to inject artificial "hustle" into guys who are just aren't that way will fail just as miserably. You'd either NOT change their stats one iota or you'd hurt their production making them think about "hustling" instead of just playing their game.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 04:36 PM
Actually no, that's not the argument being made. Thanks for playing.

The argument being made, at least by myself, is that hustle is dandy but too many fans, especially in Cincinnati (1) hyper fixate on hustle and (2) ascribe goofy things as hustle such as running to your position (3) equate hustle with production.

Absolutely it is. I don't like the argument that says hustle alone should win you a spot, but it's a red herring of the first order to conflate "some Cincinnati fans" with fans here.

Hustle and talent aren't mutually exclusive, but some folks here keep insisting that they are, all the way setting up a bunch of bogus false dichotomies. Give it a rest.

No one here believes that hustle trumps talent.

Jpup
05-01-2009, 04:57 PM
If Rosales is hitting .300 6 weeks from now do you sit him when EE comes back?

See, that is the thing. I just can't see that happening. If it does, then we can decide our opinion.

MississippiRed
05-01-2009, 05:17 PM
Hustle in guys is a personality quality that has nothing- NOTHING - to do with their innate physical talent. Take that hustle away - the "goofy" little things like running to their position, running out walks etc and I think that player's game gets hurt. Rosales types, or Freels, or Sabos, or Roses don't do that stuff to impress people, they do it because it's in their nature - they are the hyper physical types. They'd be the irritating guy in the beer softball league who hoots and hollers constantly and does jumping jacks in the outfield between pitches. If you could peek at them as kids they were probably the tykes who never quit moving until they dropped to sleep. Fans do seem to love these guys because it seems they are trying harder. They aren't really - they're just doing that stuff because it's who they are. For some reason it's looked on as a sign that they care more or something. These guys use that energy output to drive themselves, not anyone else. I do believe there are guys who slack off but that is not lack of hustle - that's another character flaw altogether. Most guys are busting their butts whether they make it look effortless and or "hustled" and hard. Hustle as such is fun to watch but the talent in the guy who is "hustling" in that Sabo/Rose/Rosales/Freel (to give a wide range of abilities) mold stands on its own. I suspect that if you tried to make those players stop the "goofiness" and running everywhere you'd diminish their production. Because you'd alter who they are as a person and athlete. And trying to inject artificial "hustle" into guys who are just aren't that way will fail just as miserably. You'd either NOT change their stats one iota or you'd hurt their production making them think about "hustling" instead of just playing their game.

To me, running out a walk or running on/off the field is a pretty narrow part of hustling, in my opinion. I agree that this type of hustling is useless. However here are some things I categorize as hustle that I like quite a bit:
- Running after you hit the ball until you are sure you are out or it is a home run. This leads to more doubles and triples, and also more baserunners when ground balls and/or throws are bobbled.
- Taking a secondary lead and being ready to run if the catcher mishandles the ball.
- Backing up your teammates so errors aren't magnified.

I consider these hustling and am very much in favor of them. As a bonus, you don't have to be an all-star to do them.

Degenerate39
05-01-2009, 05:24 PM
I don't care if he runs on a base on balls or not. If Rosales is hitting pretty well when Edwin comes back then he deserves to play until he goes cold. Edwin hasn't earned the starting 3rd baseman with no questions asked IMO. Every year we hear about his potential and how when he reaches it he'll be a good player yada, yada, yada. How much longer are we going to have to hear that song and dance? Maybe he'll never reach his "potential" he won't be the first and he won't be the last. Until he starts hitting and fielding better than he has he doesn't deserve to start over someone who is hitting.

Blitz Dorsey
05-01-2009, 08:04 PM
I love Adam "Pete" Rosales. His energy and enthusiasm is one of the things this team was missing. It helps that he's a heck of a hitter. Everyone talked about Keppinger being a good hitter last year -- Rosales' minor league numbers are better. Plus, he's younger than Kepp was last year and is better defensively. I think we have something here.

Sorry EE, the better player is going to play and that's not you.

Sea Ray
05-01-2009, 10:02 PM
See, that is the thing. I just can't see that happening. If it does, then we can decide our opinion.


Exactly my point. Let's give him a chance and see how he does. But EE should not be the starter regardless

Scrap Irony
05-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Then you must consider that we see 3 hours of a players work day per night. Who knows what he's doing before and after the games to improve himself.

I'd much rather have the guy who spends hours reviewing tape, working with the coaching staff, going into the cage, spending time conditioning and shagging balls (but looks like a sour-puss on the field) over the guy who runs around like a schizo.

But in the final analysis, "hustle" is an amorphous quality at best and utterly useless at worst. You judge a player on what he does not how he looks doing it.

By the way, hustle isn't contagious, it's annoying. It's the new guy in the company that tries to hard to impress, goes out of his way to get noticed and shows up early where there's really no reason to.

Hard work, on the other hand, combined with talent? That's what I want on my team.



Hasn't Rosales been praised not only as a hard worker on the field, but off as well? Two springs in a row, Baker has said as much. This year, Jocketty chimed in, too. So he's not just showing off. That's who he is.

And yeah, hustle really is contagious for some. Some are leaders. Some follow. Bruce said he learned a lot of his work ethic from Votto (another "hustler", BTW). Rosales is one of those that's always got to be first. He competes at everything and I'm guessing being the hardest worker is hard-wired into his brain.

And, as a side note, I've noticed, in my chosen profession, those that show up early even if they don't have to and try hard to impress are almost without exception the best employees. It's the guys that make fun of those people who tend to struggle.

Team Clark
05-01-2009, 10:41 PM
Hasn't Rosales been praised not only as a hard worker on the field, but off as well? Two springs in a row, Baker has said as much. This year, Jocketty chimed in, too. So he's not just showing off. That's who he is.

And yeah, hustle really is contagious for some. Some are leaders. Some follow. Bruce said he learned a lot of his work ethic from Votto (another "hustler", BTW). Rosales is one of those that's always got to be first. He competes at everything and I'm guessing being the hardest worker is hard-wired into his brain.

And, as a side note, I've noticed, in my chosen profession, those that show up early even if they don't have to and try hard to impress are almost without exception the best employees. It's the guys that make fun of those people who tend to struggle.

Hands down I want guys on my team that hustle. Everyone may have a different definition of "Hustle" which is fine too. My experience, almost universally, has been the guys who made fun of those who hustled were lacking in a lot of areas and used their comments to deflect/distract.

membengal
05-01-2009, 10:45 PM
I just want guys who have a good professional approach at the plate, get on base a lot, and hit the ball with some authority. Rosales looks like an interesting guy who might fit that profile. I am curious to find out. Whether and how he "hustles" while we find out doesn't matter a ton to me.

I am just excited to see the actual results from him getting regular playing time. I like data.

OUReds
05-01-2009, 10:45 PM
Wait wait wait wait....

Back to the Herb Washington baseball card.

They actually printed Pinch Runner as his position?!

Ouch

westofyou
05-01-2009, 10:51 PM
Wait wait wait wait....

Back to the Herb Washington baseball card.

They actually printed Pinch Runner as his position?!

Ouch

Yep it's a joke, an anomaly...here's his fielding record


HERB WASHINGTON



YEAR TEAM AGE G PO A E DP PCT RANGE
TOTALS

Batting Record

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1974 A's 22 92 0 29 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 29 16
1975 A's 23 13 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1
TOTALS 105 0 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 31 17
LG AVERAGE 21 3 6 1 0 0 2.08 2 2 3 0 0 .258 .372 .323 .695



One of the most unique players in the history of the game, Herb Washington was the first and only designated runner. Washington was a world class sprinter, who had won a NCAA Championship while at Michigan State University and broken several indoor track records. Charles Finley decided his A's--coming off two straight World Series victories--needed a speedy pinch-runner for those times when the A's really needed a steal. As Finley's ideas go this one had more in common with his suggestion that Major League Baseball switch to orange balls or his "Three-Ball Walk, Two-Strike Strikeout" rule change than his decision to change the A's to their current green-and-gold uniforms.

Washington was fast, even outdoors and in a baseball uniform. The problem was that Washington wasn't an especially good base runner. He wasn't Jorge Posada bad or anything (Posada runs the bases in a manner suggesting the Yankees might consider a Second Base Coach to go along with those at the corners) but he simply wasn't a baseball player. Obviously his speed could make up for some of these mistakes, but Washington's final 1974 line features an impressive twenty-nine steals (and an equal number of runs) but also sixteen times caught stealing. None of those CS was worse than during Game Two of the World Series. With the A's down one run and rallying in the ninth, Washington came on as the tying run, running for Joe Rudi. However, in a disastrously embarrassing moment, Washington was picked off by Dodgers' reliever Mike Marshall and after Angel Mangual struck out, the A's lost the game, their only loss in the 1974 World Series.

Washington returned to the A's in 1975, but only briefly, going 2-for-3 in steal attempts before Charlie Finley decided he'd had enough of his own novelty and Washington was released in early May. He would--unsurprisingly--never play in the Majors again, although he retires with the unusual distinction of being the man with the most steals (31) and runs (33) without ever having come to the plate, and of course, he has a World Series ring. He ran on the pro track circuit until 1976 and today is a businessman in Rochester, NY where he owns several McDonald's


http://thisdaybaseball.blogspot.com/2005_11_13_archive.html

OUReds
05-01-2009, 10:53 PM
I......

Did not know that. Danke.

TRF
05-01-2009, 10:54 PM
Hogwash

It's really not. He had a decent game tonight though, and I am happy for that.

Blitz Dorsey
05-01-2009, 11:01 PM
Learn something new every day. And I'm not that young (33).

A freakin' pinch runner... and it even says so on his baseball card. I can't believe I didn't know about this. I usually know about a lot of the good stuff even before my time. I've been slacking, obviously.

Blitz Dorsey
05-01-2009, 11:03 PM
http://static.baseballtoaster.com/blogs/cardboardgods/images/2007/HerbWashington75.jpg

You are the man for posting the baseball card. Good stuff there.

Jpup
05-02-2009, 09:58 AM
Exactly my point. Let's give him a chance and see how he does. But EE should not be the starter regardless

Edwin will be and should be the starter when he is healthy. That will be the case no matter how well Rosales plays. I think Dusty would tell you the same thing. Edwin has a bad month so he loses his job? That is silly.

westofyou
05-02-2009, 10:06 AM
It's really not. He had a decent game tonight though, and I am happy for that.

No, it is hogwash.

He has talent, sure it's not top shelf, but to say he's talentless is intellectually incorrect and represents nothing more than what I call a "poke the bear" moment, just made to incite.

Sea Ray
05-02-2009, 10:13 AM
Edwin will be and should be the starter when he is healthy. That will be the case no matter how well Rosales plays. I think Dusty would tell you the same thing. Edwin has a bad month so he loses his job? That is silly.

In my opinion very few ballplayers should have locks on starting jobs. With very few exceptions, they should know that they only continue to start as long as they continue to produce. On the current Reds I would say only Phillips, Votto and Bruce would have "locks" on their starting positions.

I have no problem giving Edwin ABs when he returns but he ought to know his job is up for grabs and Adam will get his share of ABs as well. If I'm the manager the best player will play the most.

I agree with you, Dusty will give EE his job back regardless of whether he's the better 3B for this team.

Blitz Dorsey
05-02-2009, 10:57 AM
Rosales needs to play until he proves he shouldn't. I would just leave him in there every day and see what happens.

remdog
05-02-2009, 11:52 AM
After two games Adam Rosales is being annointed as an everyday starter by some. I say let's give it the timeline that is in place and see what happens before we do that.

This is just a guess but I'm thinking EdE is out 2-4 weeks and then does 10-15 days rehab at L'ville. That gives AR 3-6 weeks of playing time and we'll see how he does. Jay Bruce got off to a torid start when brought up last year and then 'flat-lined'.

The more likely scenario I see is AR plays OK, EdE gets his job back when he's physically ready to go and AR stays with the team and McDonald heads for AAA. AR gets 2-4 starts per week giving guys a rest or filling in for the injuries the inevitably happen.

EdE has a higher potential than AR but AR can do a lot of things and the Reds need an additional IF rather than 6 OF'ers.

Rem

remdog
05-02-2009, 12:21 PM
BTW, a couple of other things about this situation. I'm happy to see Adam Rosales get the opportunity to show his stuff. He could be the JHJ of the future for the Reds or maybe an everyday player if someone gets moved or injured so it's good to find out what he can do.

Secondly, considering that EdE says his hand has been bothering him since ST (or maybe even before) and the Dusty said he couldn't get him extra hitting in ST because of his hand, I'm pretty ticked off at Edwin, the Reds coaching staff and the Reds medical staff. EdE, why didn't you say something early on? Dusty, if you know he's hurting why didn't you check it out? Reds medical staff, you wait through 6 weeks of ST and a month of the season before you check this out? Is this a MLB organization or a beer league softball team?

Hands are one of a hitters best friends. When they are consistently grumpy they need to be checked. They need to be taken care of and they need to be treated with respect. Why ignore a problem like that for at least 10 weeks? Maybe it's just an inept organization.

Rem

Will M
05-02-2009, 12:47 PM
After two games Adam Rosales is being annointed as an everyday starter by some. I say let's give it the timeline that is in place and see what happens before we do that.

This is just a guess but I'm thinking EdE is out 2-4 weeks and then does 10-15 days rehab at L'ville. That gives AR 3-6 weeks of playing time and we'll see how he does. Jay Bruce got off to a torid start when brought up last year and then 'flat-lined'.

The more likely scenario I see is AR plays OK, EdE gets his job back when he's physically ready to go and AR stays with the team and McDonald heads for AAA. AR gets 2-4 starts per week giving guys a rest or filling in for the injuries the inevitably happen.

EdE has a higher potential than AR but AR can do a lot of things and the Reds need an additional IF rather than 6 OF'ers.

Rem

I am guessing EE will be out closer to 6 weeks than 3 weeks.

You are absolutely correct that Rosales has this chance to show if he can be a big league starter at 3B.

I actually really really hope he plays well. That way we will have seen the last of EE at 3B. Try as he might he just is not a major league caliber third baseman. If Rosales plays well maybe EE can play 1B or LF during his AAA rehab stint.

As for EE's 'potential' this is just B.S. at this point. He is 26 years old in his 5th big league season. He is what he is. A major league average hitter who is a DH/1B/LF defensively.

remdog
05-02-2009, 12:58 PM
^^^

Will, you could be correct on the timeframe for healing the injury. I'm just going by what I've seen in the news.

As for the 'potential' I spoke of, it's EdE vs. AR related. I think most people think that EdE has more 'potential' than AR (read it as 'higher ceiling', if you like). Plus, I was around when Pete Rose and Tommy Helms came up. Tommy, innitally, was rated as 'potentially' the better player and we all know how that turned out so.....I'm not saying that EdE is lock, I'm just saying that the general perception is that EdE can be a solid/good player with a both a bat and a glove at 3rd base (if he's healthy, and, of course that's the subject of my second rant....). At this point in time I think most people see AR as a utility player. But, going back to Pete's early games, I think most people felt something similar. He only turned out to be the 'Hit King'.

Rem

remdog
05-02-2009, 01:03 PM
As for EE's 'potential' this is just B.S. at this point. He is 26 years old in his 5th big league season. He is what he is. A major league average hitter who is a DH/1B/LF defensively.

Since you brought this up, let me ask you this: how old is Adam Rosales? (answer at the bottom of the page)

AR has played in 20 ML games. He has a .242/.316/273 line despite a hot start in the two games he has played in this year.


















































(Answer) Adam Rosales is 26 years old.

Just maybe AR is what he is. (famous shrug)

Rem

Will M
05-02-2009, 01:20 PM
Rem:

i know Rosales & EE are the same age.

Rosales has proven nothing in the bigs. he is somewhere between AAAA player & late bloomer who can be a starter in the bigs for a few years. we shall see.




As for the 'potential' I spoke of, it's EdE vs. AR related. I think most people think that EdE has more 'potential' than AR (read it as 'higher ceiling', if you like). .....I'm not saying that EdE is lock, I'm just saying that the general perception is that EdE can be a solid/good player with a both a bat and a glove at 3rd base (if he's healthy, and, of course that's the subject of my second rant....). At this point in time I think most people see AR as a utility player.

EE has shown that he is an average big league hitter (career OPS+ 100).
if the conventional wisdom here is that EE will improve with the bat I'd say he might improve a little (as he is just entering what should be his prime years).

if the conventional wisdom here is that EE will improve with the glove and play at decent 3B I would have to DISAGREE. the Reds tried to take a guy with a 1B/LF skill set and potential with the bat & make him a third baseman. fine. lots of teams try this kind of stuff. however its time to wake up & face facts. EE has shown that he cannot field at 3B. IMO EE will never be able to play 3B in the bigs. he just doesn't have that skill set.

TRF
05-02-2009, 01:29 PM
No, it is hogwash.

He has talent, sure it's not top shelf, but to say he's talentless is intellectually incorrect and represents nothing more than what I call a "poke the bear" moment, just made to incite.

Fine, I equate his talent level with that of Michael Bourn.

I don't like his game either.

But it was me unnecessarily bashing a player and taking the thread off topic. so i apologize for that.

remdog
05-02-2009, 01:42 PM
if the conventional wisdom here is that EE will improve with the glove and play at decent 3B I would have to DISAGREE. the Reds tried to take a guy with a 1B/LF skill set and potential with the bat & make him a third baseman. fine. lots of teams try this kind of stuff. however its time to wake up & face facts. EE has shown that he cannot field at 3B. IMO EE will never be able to play 3B in the bigs. he just doesn't have that skill set.

Frankly, vis a vie EdE's glove I, too, am becoming sceptical. (He reminds me too much of me when I played. :lol: ) EdE came up originally as a SS though and was switched to third base. Management must have seen some sort of ability there to play 3rd. (shrug). I'm willing to see how it goes this year but.... EdE is reportedly a hard worker. That's good but, I will admit, sometimes things just don't click.

Right now, with EdE being one of the two RH power bats in the lineup and for what the Reds are paying him, I see him as being the best choice at 3rd. If he gets more expensive and/or his price rises, I'd have to look at that at that time.

Rem

Redhook
05-02-2009, 07:22 PM
I am guessing EE will be out closer to 6 weeks than 3 weeks.

You are absolutely correct that Rosales has this chance to show if he can be a big league starter at 3B.

I actually really really hope he plays well. That way we will have seen the last of EE at 3B. Try as he might he just is not a major league caliber third baseman. If Rosales plays well maybe EE can play 1B or LF during his AAA rehab stint.

As for EE's 'potential' this is just B.S. at this point. He is 26 years old in his 5th big league season. He is what he is. A major league average hitter who is a DH/1B/LF defensively.

I agree.

I've given up hope that EE will be solid 3rd baseman someday. I don't think he'll ever be average. He has the range, but he just lacks the consistency to ever be above average.

And the same goes for his bat. He has the potential, but he disappears for months, not weeks, at a time. He's not someone you build a championship baseball with. I'm sorry to everyone who supports, but he isn't the answer. I had hope as well, but I'm done believing in him.

I have no idea if Rosales is the answer. I'm guessing no, but you never know. Could he be the future 2B when Phillips gets traded? Or will 2B be Valaika's spot? Still missing a SS there.

Jpup
05-03-2009, 05:31 AM
Rosales' glove cost the Reds the game last night. That's, at least, the 2nd time he has had a hard time getting the ball out of his glove in his short stint with the Reds this year.

forfreelin04
05-03-2009, 09:59 AM
Rosales' glove cost the Reds the game last night. That's, at least, the 2nd time he has had a hard time getting the ball out of his glove in his short stint with the Reds this year.

He did not cost the Reds the game last night. Nobody did individually.

-Rosales did cost the Reds a DP, but even the official scorer never assumes 2. Rosales didn't even make an error, Phillips did. Phillips could have easily stepped through the bag instead of still trying to turn that ball into a DP. If he would have done this, the Reds get the force. Granted a run scores, but not two. Phillips also botched a play in the first inning that led to a big inning.

-Even if you assume Rosales fields the ball cleanly and BP turns the DP, then Hernandez allows Morgan to move up two bags on the wild pitch the next inning and the Reds still lose by one.

- (Also (same inning), don't forget Votto's throw to home on the forceout was high. He didn't set his feet and he had plenty of time to get to the bag and make it a DP.

-Owings gave up nine hits and didn't strike out a single batter. That's a recipe for a loss if I've ever seen one.

-The Reds offense collectively had more hits than the Pirates, at 14 > 13, but left 13 on base to the Pirates 7. The Reds offense had plenty of chances to take the lead before it ever got to the ninth.

Sorry for the long explanation, but its bothers me when a player is accused of losing the game by themselves. Baseball is game of a chances. The Reds had plenty of chances to win that game. Rosales had a chance and he botched half of it, but the other players had chances too.

That being said, a loss is a loss, and let's hope for a series win this afternoon! :beerme:

Blitz Dorsey
05-03-2009, 10:58 AM
I'm tired about hearing about EE's "potential." Sorry, but I've watched him play a lot of games the last few years and I can tell you exactly what his potential is: He has the potential to continue being an average hitter with overrated power and a defensive liability. He is not going to magically turn into a good player.

Rosales at least gives me some hope because he is a guy that continues to get better and has been hitting the cover off the ball since spring training. Hit well last year too at Louisville. Maybe he's just a late-bloomer.

And he's still 25... turns 26 pretty soon, but Rosales is still 25. For a guy that played college baseball, 25 is still pretty young.

lollipopcurve
05-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Sorry for the long explanation, but its bothers me when a player is accused of losing the game by themselves. Baseball is game of a chances. The Reds had plenty of chances to win that game. Rosales had a chance and he botched half of it, but the other players had chances too.

Don't apologize -- point is well made. Nice post.

boognish
05-03-2009, 11:37 AM
When EE returns, why not incorporate Rosales by giving him Hairston's at-bats as well as some of EE's? This team has had a ton of unproductive plate appearances thus far, and if Rosales produces there are ample opportunities to give him playing time.

EE and Rosales are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. There is a lot more time to see how things play out while EE recovers.

westofyou
05-03-2009, 11:47 AM
Sorry, but I've watched him play a lot of games the last few years

Ain't technology great. I bet we've all seen a few games eh? Probably why we come here to vent about them.

I like Adam, he's a cheap gamer who OPS'd in the low .800's in AAA ball, he's just the latest scrappy, hustler who gets a lot of press when he succeeds because of that feature. OTOH EE is a quiet guy who gets a lot bad press for that when he doesn't succeed, but he has an OPS in the low .800's in MLB.

I'm liking Rosales, but I'm giving him a key to the executive washroom as soon as some of the others would like to.

OnBaseMachine
05-03-2009, 11:56 AM
Rosales' glove cost the Reds the game last night. That's, at least, the 2nd time he has had a hard time getting the ball out of his glove in his short stint with the Reds this year.

He also had three hits and has a .615 OBP in three games. If not for his bat, the Reds may not have even been that close. He still recovered in time to get a force out but Brandon Phillips dropped the ball. He's also made a couple nice plays at third. I'm a big EdE fan, but I like Rosales' glove a lot better at third base.

Blitz Dorsey
05-03-2009, 12:18 PM
Ain't technology great. I bet we've all seen a few games eh? Probably why we come here to vent about them.

I like Adam, he's a cheap gamer who OPS'd in the low .800's in AAA ball, he's just the latest scrappy, hustler who gets a lot of press when he succeeds because of that feature. OTOH EE is a quiet guy who gets a lot bad press for that when he doesn't succeed, but he has an OPS in the low .800's in MLB.

I'm liking Rosales, but I'm giving him a key to the executive washroom as soon as some of the others would like to.

I think you mean you're not going to give him a key just yet... but point well made.

nate
05-03-2009, 12:22 PM
He also had three hits and has a .615 OBP in three games. If not for his bat, the Reds may not have even been that close. He still recovered in time to get a force out but Brandon Phillips dropped the ball. He's also made a couple nice plays at third. I'm a big EdE fan, but I like Rosales' glove a lot better at third base.

Yeah, I think the official scorer got it right last night: FC and error on BP. If a guy throws the ball into your glove, you should hold on to it.

nate
05-03-2009, 12:23 PM
Ain't technology great. I bet we've all seen a few games eh? Probably why we come here to vent about them.

I like Adam, he's a cheap gamer who OPS'd in the low .800's in AAA ball, he's just the latest scrappy, hustler who gets a lot of press when he succeeds because of that feature. OTOH EE is a quiet guy who gets a lot bad press for that when he doesn't succeed, but he has an OPS in the low .800's in MLB.

I'm liking Rosales, but I'm giving him a key to the executive washroom as soon as some of the others would like to.

Yep.

westofyou
05-03-2009, 12:29 PM
I think you mean you're not going to give him a key just yet... but point well made.

Right, the key is really dangling in front of both players, it's the proverbial baseball carrot. Who is hungrier is a big question, but that's masked by who has the best goal down the road. Which most scouts will say is EE, he has a greater tool box. The issue is can he learn them all before he gets too expensive?

The other issue is energy, teams LOVE energy, EE shows little of it, that's not Rosales, so therefore that aspect will be played up more, but we all know that energy is an intangible, something that you can't put a finger on as being a real measurable feature of the game. But anyone who has ever played any game will tell you that morale is often cared and coddled for on the bench and the best way to do that is enthusiasm.

The way I see it the best Rosales gets in this season is becoming a super utility guy, the Chris Stynes player (but liked by teammates!!) EE will get his job back but his hand injury is more much a boost to Rosales chances to become a Keppinger/Stynes like player on the Reds than it is for EE being shown the door.

Until he pushes himself out of it, and he'll need both hands to do that.

mth123
05-03-2009, 01:47 PM
He did not cost the Reds the game last night. Nobody did individually.

-Rosales did cost the Reds a DP, but even the official scorer never assumes 2. Rosales didn't even make an error, Phillips did. Phillips could have easily stepped through the bag instead of still trying to turn that ball into a DP. If he would have done this, the Reds get the force. Granted a run scores, but not two. Phillips also botched a play in the first inning that led to a big inning.

-Even if you assume Rosales fields the ball cleanly and BP turns the DP, then Hernandez allows Morgan to move up two bags on the wild pitch the next inning and the Reds still lose by one.

- (Also (same inning), don't forget Votto's throw to home on the forceout was high. He didn't set his feet and he had plenty of time to get to the bag and make it a DP.

-Owings gave up nine hits and didn't strike out a single batter. That's a recipe for a loss if I've ever seen one.

-The Reds offense collectively had more hits than the Pirates, at 14 > 13, but left 13 on base to the Pirates 7. The Reds offense had plenty of chances to take the lead before it ever got to the ninth.

Sorry for the long explanation, but its bothers me when a player is accused of losing the game by themselves. Baseball is game of a chances. The Reds had plenty of chances to win that game. Rosales had a chance and he botched half of it, but the other players had chances too.

That being said, a loss is a loss, and let's hope for a series win this afternoon! :beerme:

Nice post. I agree, it was a team loss. It usually is.

Blitz Dorsey
05-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Right, the key is really dangling in front of both players, it's the proverbial baseball carrot. Who is hungrier is a big question, but that's masked by who has the best goal down the road. Which most scouts will say is EE, he has a greater tool box. The issue is can he learn them all before he gets too expensive?

The other issue is energy, teams LOVE energy, EE shows little of it, that's not Rosales, so therefore that aspect will be played up more, but we all know that energy is an intangible, something that you can't put a finger on as being a real measurable feature of the game. But anyone who has ever played any game will tell you that morale is often cared and coddled for on the bench and the best way to do that is enthusiasm.

The way I see it the best Rosales gets in this season is becoming a super utility guy, the Chris Stynes player (but liked by teammates!!) EE will get his job back but his hand injury is more much a boost to Rosales chances to become a Keppinger/Stynes like player on the Reds than it is for EE being shown the door.

Until he pushes himself out of it, and he'll need both hands to do that.

And that could be just the thing it takes to light a fire in EE. He's had a free ride here for too long with no real competition for his job. I'm still skeptical he will ever be anything more than average/below average, but competition has a way of bringing out the best or worst in players. If Rosales keeps it up, it will be interesting to see how EE plays when he knows his job is on the line. Up until now, he could lead MLB third basemen in errors and hit like crap and his job was still safe.

RedsManRick
05-03-2009, 02:38 PM
What I don't understand about the Rosales/EE talk is that EE's struggles have never been attributed to laziness or a lack of "fire". If anything, his troubles have been pinned on EE putting too much pressure on himself and losing concentration. I'm not saying that having Rosales as competition is a bad thing, but let's not pretend like all EE needs is a fire lit under him.

It wasn't the reason his AAA demotion worked last time and it's not the solution now.

HokieRed
05-03-2009, 02:51 PM
We may be looking at the return of EE to 3b and the installation of Rosales at 2b if BP doesn't find it soon.

remdog
05-03-2009, 02:54 PM
What I don't understand about the Rosales/EE talk is that EE's struggles have never been attributed to laziness or a lack of "fire". If anything, his troubles have been pinned on EE putting too much pressure on himself and losing concentration. I'm not saying that having Rosales as competition is a bad thing, but let's not pretend like all EE needs is a fire lit under him.

It wasn't the reason his AAA demotion worked last time and it's not the solution now.

I agree with that completely. Sometimes people think that the myth called 'body language' is accurate. It is not. It's that big lie that is told so often that people think it is true.

Edwin simply has an 'appearance' that he's unhappy or tired or sad, depending on how some people want to read it. However, by all accounts he is one of the hardest working guys on the team, his fire to play well/win is intense and just because he doesn't sprint back to the dougout when he makes an out people dump on him.

Geez....

Rem

RedsManRick
05-03-2009, 03:00 PM
We may be looking at the return of EE to 3b and the installation of Rosales at 2b if BP doesn't find it soon.

Luckily, BP's glove justifies his presence in the lineup almost regardless of how well he's hitting. I just wish Dusty would come to terms with the fact that Phillips is heavily platoon dependent and doesn't belong in higher than 6th against righties. I've said it 100 times, but Phillips is basically Jacque Jones offensively. That's a handy complimentary guy but not somebody who build an offense around. Bat Votto and Bruce back to back against righties and let that late inning LOOGY pitch with a 3 run deficit.