Unwatchable

[VR]

At the end of yesteday's game thread WVReds and others brought this up, and it echoed my thoughts, and fears.

As a guy that endured the early 80's, I have much of the same feeling with these guys. I signed up for Extra Innings with Dish after a couple years of hell with DirectTV, and I really thought I'd enjoy it. Truth is, the Reds are putting a vanilla brand of baseball out there, with so many glaring holes on offense it does feel like 82 again.

Back in 82/83/84, I can remember rushing to the morning paper for the boxscores, to see who had the 1 RBI in yet another 5-1 loss. It was a barren time for fans....with absolutely no hitting, only one bonified starter (Soto....Seaver was horrendous in 82), and a comedy at the management level. I remained a fan...but a very tepid interest level at best. (Playing a one man stickball game with Ron Oester as your #3 hitter just wasn't that interesting either)

The last 9 years have been pretty brutal...but for me the offense has kept it entertaining....and quite honestly, Redszone has kept me informed, in good humor, and in the company of fellow sufferers.

I do recall how life changed dramatically for me as a Reds fan, on August
16th of 1984. The news of Pete Rose returning to Cincy was nothing short of a miracle. I felt like Lazarus the Reds fan, being raised from the dead with sudden new life. Oh, I had a bit of hope with the Dave Parker arriving, and some unproven colt named Davis. But this changed everything. Suddenly my Reds were the focal point of the media. I could see them on tv again. Sport Illustrated cover. Wow! It was 1981 again as a fan, the drought was over.
We then moved into an exciting period between 1985-1989....culminated in glory in 1990.

The rest of the 90's had big ups and downs, but there was never a shortage
of competetive baseball, and star quality players. Griffey and Dunn were star value, always fun to watch.

So here we are again in 2009. The young talent is really, really exciting. The problem remains however.... an uncohsive group of defenders and bats that are skittish at best, a trainwreck at worst. Not fun to watch on a daily basis.
And yet, I watch. You just never know when you'll see a Cueto gem, Vottomatic clutch yet again, or a webgem from BP.

I think this club can either be a 1982/83 version, or a 1985 version....but I think we need an August 16th type of event to turn the fan base around.

[traderumor]

I think it should come earlier. While most of your lineup is not going to hit in the .100s all year, there is such a glaring weakness in the middle of the order. It is probably going to take a gutsy trade to get it done, but the power-hitting LFer in the middle of the order is critical for this team to even think about a contending season.

Last night, I was flipping to the game between contestants on Idol and the Reds were not even batting through the song and review---against freakin' Wandy Rodriquez, who is magical to get anyone out--who has shut them down twice now. Unwatchable for me because they were out so quick :eek:

[membengal]

We will all remember where we were the day Adam Dunn was brought back as player/manager for the 2011 Reds...

[oneupper]

It's like watching paint dry.

I know everyone wants a winner, but if the team is not going to win (and this team won't win), at least entertain me.

[nate]

Last night's game was pretty freaking dull. We chatted it up as best as we could I was still hard pressed to decide between watching the game and C-SPAN.

[Chip R]

We will all remember where we were the day Adam Dunn was brought back as player/manager for the 2011 Reds...


http://www.wayodd.com/funny-pictures2/funny-pictures-hell-freezes-over-14l.jpg

[bucksfan2]

Last night's game was pretty freaking dull. We chatted it up as best as we could I was still hard pressed to decide between watching the game and C-SPAN.

They were pretty fun to watch when they went 7-3 on a 10 game road trip weren't they?

[HokieRed]

Josh Hamilton, Adam Dunn. Did the previous regime not take these guys seriously enough, perhaps because it overvalued EE and BP?

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Not sure about EE, but I know they have overvalued BP. The time was last off-season to trade him. He did not take any strides offensively in 2008. If anything, he took a big step back.

He'll be making $18M in 2010 and 2011. A pretty steep price to pay for below-average offensive production.

[Tommyjohn25]

They were pretty fun to watch when they went 7-3 on a 10 game road trip weren't they?

Funny how that works huh? :D

[westofyou]

Hard to embrace a team full of strangers. It's not as though the team drips with charisma either. In short it's a team full of young names, low key guys who do their job and folks no one has yet had time to get acquainted with.

It tastes like an expansion team, the only thing missing is 38 year old white guy with bad knees who likes to surprise people by walking around naked in the club house.

[Phhhl]

Votto and Bruce are so much better than any of the players on those teams in the 80's it's sick. Against a lot of begging and pleading from here, and Jockety's own expressed interest in doing so, the Reds really seem to have sold themselves short by not bringing a run producer into the fold. It has many of the elements of a good ballclub and a beautiful multi-million dollar scoreboard, but not enough thunder and lightning in between the lines. I really do think one acquisition could change the complexion of the lineup completely. Move Phillips back to sixth, hit between the boy wonders and work pitchers until their arms fall off. Unfortunately, that player just doesn't seem to be available at the moment.

Personally, I would recall Alonzo tonight. The record is not desperate, but it is easy to see how this is trending. Boring baseball, low attendance... roll those bones.

[WMR]

Hard to embrace a team full of strangers. It's not as though the team drips with charisma either. In short it's a team full of young names, low key guys who do their job and folks no one has yet had time to get acquainted with.

It tastes like an expansion team, the only thing missing is 38 year old white guy with bad knees who likes to surprise people by walking around naked in the club house.

I think a few have missed that memo. ;)

[nate]

They were pretty fun to watch when they went 7-3 on a 10 game road trip weren't they?

Hmm...I know it's a leading question but I'll answer it honestly. I think Joey Votto's been fun to watch because he's becoming way better than I though he would. He's leading the league in OBI% and I just love his intensity and plate approach. I've also enjoyed watching Danny Ray because I like an underdog who wins via unorthodoxy...plus, even though I'm a tall guy, one of my favorite non-Reds growing up was Fred Patek. I also like Jay Bruce even though he started the season struggling.

I guess, for me, the reason last night was a drain was because the .500 season up until then had been fool's gold. They're allowing way more runs than they score and that is not going to be a recipe for success.

This team HAS TO start scoring runs and HAS TO do it with someone other than Joey Votto.

So was it exciting? Yes, in the same way that you get a bunch of energy after eating sugar rather than building your body up to have natural energy. I'm afraid of the inevitable results.

[nate]

Hard to embrace a team full of strangers. It's not as though the team drips with charisma either. In short it's a team full of young names, low key guys who do their job and folks no one has yet had time to get acquainted with.

It tastes like an expansion team, the only thing missing is 38 year old white guy with bad knees who likes to surprise people by walking around naked in the club house.

Bump it up to 40 year old and I'll do it for league minimum.

[durl]

I agree that the lack of offense is extremely frustrating.

However, can I just say how much I enjoy watching Joey Votto at the plate? The guy never looks flustered, an 0-2 count means nothing to him, and he just flat-out gets the job done. Give the Reds another hitter like that from the right side and things could get interesting.

I don't know if BP is overrated right now. I get the vibe that Brandon is to the plate what Zambrano is to the mound. Get him flustered and watch things fall apart. I believe he can get it together if he's willing to learn. Well, if someone will TEACH him, that is.

[Ltlabner]

I guess, for me, the reason last night was a drain was because the .500 season up until then had been fool's gold. They're allowing way more runs than they score and that is not going to be a recipe for success.

Bingo.

We're not even out of April and any illusion of hope is already gone as reality sets in. I'm sure they'll have little streaks but come mid-August we'll still be saying, "once X and Y warms up the team will take off". There will be little spots of light that keep people hoping it "all comes together" but what we're seeing now is what we should expect to continue to watch for the rest of the season.

This team is dull as hell. M2 talked about it over the off-season. Between the Epic Fail of an off-season and this paint-drying team I don't think sub 5,000 gate attendance nights are too far away.

For all the talk of "speed and defense" I've yet to see any defense or wake up long enough to note any speed.

[Ltlabner]

Give the Reds another hitter like that from the right side and things could get interesting.

Actually no, no it can't. And that's the fools gold trap.

You're still stuck with too much sub-replacement and replacement level play to have any chance of scoring enough runs to compete.

[Chip R]

Are they unwatchable because they are losing or were they just as unwatchable during that 10 day road trip?

[osuceltic]

I have enjoyed this season. I like low-scoring baseball games. The games for the most part have been close, with the outcome in doubt going to the wire. A single swing has the potential to change the outcome. That's exciting.

I have been disappointed in the defense -- especially the outfield defense. Dickerson has been a disaster and Bruce hasn't been great either. I thought that would be a strength of the team.

I'm just not that worked up about the offense. Phillips and EE aren't going to hit like this forever. Already Hernandez and Gonzo are showing signs of coming out of their slumps, and Bruce is out of his. Other than Votto and Taveras, the whole team was underachieving offensively. And yet they have managed to hang in there and remain in contention.

They need a right-handed cleanup hitter. We all knew that. Many of the people complaining about this now did not want to trade for Holliday or sign Burrell. And here we are.

Anyway, I never enjoyed the Griffey-Dunn teams. This team is far from a finished product, but I enjoy watching it much more. Being down 6-0 in the third inning made the games pretty much unwatchable. Watching good pitching is fun.

[OnBaseMachine]

The Reds are still watchable because because of four guys - Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, and Joey Votto. All four of those guys are capable of doing something special when they play. Heck, even without those four, I'd still watch the Reds because I love baseball, but those four make it more interesting.

This could be a bad year if the offense doesn't improve, but I think brighter days are ahead in 2010 and beyond.

[lollipopcurve]

Guys, it could be December 14th, 30 degrees and sleeting outside, two months till spring training.

[durl]

Actually no, no it can't. And that's the fools gold trap.

You're still stuck with too much sub-replacement and replacement level play to have any chance of scoring enough runs to compete.

A RH Joey Votto couldn't make things worse, that's for sure. Having another player with Votto's output (20 RBIs in April) would be very nice.

Hernandez's numbers are getting better. Rosales might actually make an impact. Hannigan and Janish have done well at the plate when given a chance. If Phillips could just return to last year's form, the offense (as a whole) will be in much better shape.

I'm just trying to look at the bright side. It is still early in the season and you never know what could happen.

[VR]

Votto and Bruce are so much better than any of the players on those teams in the 80's it's sick.


Yeah, right. Votto and Bruce couldn't carry the jockstraps of Paul Householder and Duane Walker :pimp:

[membengal]

Are they unwatchable because they are losing or were they just as unwatchable during that 10 day road trip?

That Astros series in Houston was borderline unwatchable. We have fond memories of it because of that bolt of lightning win late when they were down 1-0 late, but in general, they walked a tightrope that whole road trip.

I hope they can stay up on the rope, but scoring as little as they do makes it a touch and go proposition that they can keep this up.

[Edskin]

I actually disagree with the premise of this thread-- which is a bit odd considering one of my posts earlier dealt with how bored I was watching the game last night :)

I can say with a straight-face that I truly don't care about style and/or approach. A 9-7 loss is no more exciting to me than a 3-2 loss. I know some people want to at least be entertained if the Reds are going to lose, but big boppers + horrible pitchers is no more fun to me than horrible hitters + solid pitching.

In a way, I'd RATHER lose 3-2 because that makes me feel like we're "closer" to turning the corner. I think it should be easier to find guys to add a few runs than it is to find guys to delete a few runs.

I know some people dislike this style because they feel like the team has no chance to comeback if we get down early-- but I never found our awful rotations and middle relief to any more of a consolation.

What "bores" me about the Reds is the apathy surrounding the organization. It's like everyone has given up-- from the FO to the city itself. No one cares. I know the players are trying their best, but the general feeling around the team is one of complete indifference. The Cincinnati Reds are officially irrelevant, even in Cincinnati.

We aren't unwatchable because we can't score. We're unwatchable because we're the Reds.

[jmcclain19]

It tastes like an expansion team, the only thing missing is 38 year old white guy with bad knees who likes to surprise people by walking around naked in the club house.

Well at the rate he's hitting, Brian Giles is available...

[Reds4Life]

I actually disagree with the premise of this thread-- which is a bit odd considering one of my posts earlier dealt with how bored I was watching the game last night :)

I can say with a straight-face that I truly don't care about style and/or approach. A 9-7 loss is no more exciting to me than a 3-2 loss. I know some people want to at least be entertained if the Reds are going to lose, but big boppers + horrible pitchers is no more fun to me than horrible hitters + solid pitching.

In a way, I'd RATHER lose 3-2 because that makes me feel like we're "closer" to turning the corner. I think it should be easier to find guys to add a few runs than it is to find guys to delete a few runs.

I know some people dislike this style because they feel like the team has no chance to comeback if we get down early-- but I never found our awful rotations and middle relief to any more of a consolation.

What "bores" me about the Reds is the apathy surrounding the organization. It's like everyone has given up-- from the FO to the city itself. No one cares. I know the players are trying their best, but the general feeling around the team is one of complete indifference. The Cincinnati Reds are officially irrelevant, even in Cincinnati.

We aren't unwatchable because we can't score. We're unwatchable because we're the Reds.

Most of the sports fans in Cincinnati I know these days check out after college basketball ends until the NFL pre-season starts.

[Tony Cloninger]

Oh I yearn for the play of Tom Lawless...Dave Van Gorder....Mike O'Berry...German Barranca...Mike Vail.....Kelly Paris.....Tom Foley.. :bowrofl:

[dabvu2498]

I may be in the minority, but I find this squad strangely intriguing. What I find unwatchable is giving up 7 runs a game. With this staff, there will be alot of games where the pitching carries them and they have to find a way to scratch out a couple runs to win. And a team with Votto and Bruce on it can pull that off. Can make for some compelling stuff. But that is just me.

[*BaseClogger*]

I wish I could have watched tonight's game...

[Big Klu]

We will all remember where we were the day Adam Dunn was brought back as player/manager for the 2011 Reds...

Each player gets his own recliner, and they even have to take them on the field when they play defense! :D



Hard to embrace a team full of strangers. It's not as though the team drips with charisma either. In short it's a team full of young names, low key guys who do their job and folks no one has yet had time to get acquainted with.

It tastes like an expansion team, the only thing missing is 38 year old white guy with bad knees who likes to surprise people by walking around naked in the club house.


Bump it up to 40 year old and I'll do it for league minimum.

I'm only 39, so I will underbid you. :D



Votto and Bruce are so much better than any of the players on those teams in the 80's it's sick. Against a lot of begging and pleading from here, and Jockety's own expressed interest in doing so, the Reds really seem to have sold themselves short by not bringing a run producer into the fold. It has many of the elements of a good ballclub and a beautiful multi-million dollar scoreboard, but not enough thunder and lightning in between the lines. I really do think one acquisition could change the complexion of the lineup completely. Move Phillips back to sixth, hit between the boy wonders and work pitchers until their arms fall off. Unfortunately, that player just doesn't seem to be available at the moment.

Personally, I would recall Alonzo tonight. The record is not desperate, but it is easy to see how this is trending. Boring baseball, low attendance... roll those bones.

Eric Davis? Barry Larkin? Kal Daniels and Paul O'Neill were pretty good young players from the 80's, too. Maybe you meant the early 80's.

And I would definitely not bring up Alonso at this time. That smells of desperation, and could actually delay his development. (Sorry about the alliteration.)



I may be in the minority, but I find this squad strangely intriguing. What I find unwatchable is giving up 7 runs a game. With this staff, there will be alot of games where the pitching carries them and they have to find a way to scratch out a couple runs to win. And a team with Votto and Bruce on it can pull that off. Can make for some compelling stuff. But that is just me.

I also find this team fun to watch. I think most fans have gotten indoctrinated into the "slow-pitch softball" style of high-powered offensive play that has become popular in the last 10-15 years. I enjoy low-scoring games, and I think this team is, as you say, "intriguing".

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I loved watching Eddie Milner and Gary Redus. Solid, underrated players.

Dan Bilardello? Now that's another story.

[Redhook]

I enjoy watching Votto, Bruce, Nix, and Dickerson. And I enjoy watching the pitching staff. They have a good young core and good pitching. A nice change there.

On the flip side, I can't stand watching BP and EE at the plate. And it's not just this year. They're both very frustrating to watch. I think they have very low baseball IQ's and the way they approach each at bat is putrid. They go up to the plate with no clue what's going on. I'll be a happier Reds fan when both of them are on other teams (side note....if BP didn't cost so much and batted 7th I'd wouldn't mind keeping him). I won't miss them one bit.

There are more positives than negatives, but like others have said, this team desperately needs an impact bat/player in the middle of the lineup.

[Scrap Irony]

I was looking forward to smarter baseball this year.

Haven't yet seen it on the field, although Cueto's run has brought back memories of Mario Soto, the smartest pitcher in baseball during his prime. Votto has solid instincts, but outthinks himself around the first base bag occasionally. Still, it's fun to see him hit. And Taveras, for all the off-season bluster here, has shown signs of "getting it" with the bat. Nix, too, though I believe most of that (for both) is fool's gold.

I'm hoping Bruce follows Votto's lead and takes an interest in the science of hitting, rather than just hacking away. I know neither EdE nor BP will do that, though, so I'm also hoping for Hernandez to exhibit some smarts with the bat.

Lots of hope there. Not a good sign.

But a good cleanup hitter would change this offense dramatically. My biggest hope is that they somehow continue to find fool's gold until Jocketty can find that big bopper he promised in November.

Until then, they're still fun to watch. Beats everything else on TV.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

On the flip side, I can't stand watching BP and EE at the plate. And it's not just this year. They're both very frustrating to watch. I think they have very low baseball IQ's and the way they approach each at bat is putrid. They go up to the plate with no clue what's going on. I'll be a happier Reds fan when both of them are on other teams (side note....if BP didn't cost so much and batted 7th I'd wouldn't mind keeping him). I won't miss them one bit.

I agree. I feel bad saying so, but I agree.

[osuceltic]

2008: 9-15........96 runs scored....114 runs allowed
2009: 13-11......93 runs scored....100 runs allowed

[Falls City Beer]

2008: 9-15........96 runs scored....114 runs allowed
2009: 13-11......93 runs scored....100 runs allowed

Hey, what happened to all that thunderous offense from last year?

lol.

In all seriousness, though, pitching and defense. As advertised.

[medford]

I looooovvvvveeeeeee wiiiiiinnnnnniiiiiiiing!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok seriously, I find this team to be more enjoyable to watch than other recent editions. Sure I wish Edwin would display some consistancy and Brandon would learn that hitting the ball the other way with regularity is better than attempting to hit a 10 run homerun each time to the plate, but what's not to like about watching Cueto & Volquez develop into T.O.R. starters in front of our eyes, the kind of pitchers other teams envy the way we used to envy the Braves? What's not to like about watching Harangatang bounce back into form, or Votto develop into as strong of an MVP threat not named Pujols as there is in the league. What's not to like about watching Bruce turn from a wet behind the ears youngster knocking the socks off the ball during his first week in the show, into a kid capable of making the adjustments in tapping into his all-world talent we've seen since he enterred the organization. What's not fun about watching Wily circle the bases at a lightening paced speed, and heck he's even getting on base at a decent clip so far.

Above all else, seriously, what's not fun about watching a starting pitcher come off the bench to pinch hit and thinking the kid has as legit a shot at a double as most end of the bench players in the majors?

Yeah sure this team ain't perfect, and like many others have noticed a solid RH cleanup hitter could really turn this team into a contender assuming everything else continues as planned (I'm assuming BP won't hit on the interstate all season). I'd love to see the defense become (alot) more consistant, the middle relief tighten up, but I think all the other pieces are there, short of that cleanup bat to have this team in the race all season long.

Junior was fun to watch considerring his a sure fire hall of famer, but honestly, if you took the name off the back of the jersey and his not seen often enough smile in recent seasons (who could blame him w/ the injuries?) how much fun has it really been to watch Junior the last couple of seasons? I contend not very much. Dunn could hit a 500 foot homerun that you knew was gone the moment it left his bat and had you jump off the coach, but how often did he take a bad route to a baseball that gave the other team an extra base?

Winning is always fun, no matter if its down 11-10 or 1-0, its the only prescription that cures all ills. But how can you not enjoy tunning in knowing you're going to watch Harang, Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto or Micah take the mound when compared to the trash that has taken the mound in recent years. JimmyA, Milton, Graves, Paris, etc... seriously, where was the fun in that? How many long relief (or worse) caliber pitchers did we have we pinned our hopes to the last decade? Think Joey Hamilton put the fear in the opposition.

In the end, while the offense has had some thumper in recent years, kids that could lunch the ball deep into the bleachers, how productive has the offense really been? Its not like the reds have lead the league in runs scored 4 of the last 5 years. Overall, its been bad baseball from top to bottom, but it seems (at least to me) that things are turning the corner. That a plan is finally in place w/ kids developing the minors that could help both in the field, on the mound and at the plate.

Could Bailey take the reigns late the year and add to the hope that Cueto & Voltron already give us? Could Sullibran be the next big thing to come out of the minor league pitching core in 4 seasons just as Cueto,Voltron & Bailey start to get expensive and need to be moved? Is Alonso the next big thumper with huge discipline to drive in crucial runs the way Big Papi has done recently? Can Frazier come up and provide the consistant thread we always hoped EE would become?

No, these are exciting times for me as a Red fan, for should they lose or win, I always have a player or 2 to watch every night that I think is key to the future and see how they develop. Short of Santana or Oswalt coming to the mound, I rarely think they've got an unfavorable matchup on the mound compared to the kid the Reds are throwing out there. In the end, I think they'll fall short of the playoffs this season, but I think most of us will be much more satisfied heading into the future than we have at any point since Junior first stepped foot into a Reds uniform.

[jojo]

Hey, what happened to all that thunderous offense from last year?

lol.

In all seriousness, though, pitching and defense. As advertised.

2008 pythag record: 10-14;
2009 pythag record: 11-13;

The Reds may be taking a different route but the destination seems eerily similar.

[BearcatShane]

I'm not an expert on this Pythag Therom, but I think the Reds are the type of team that can outplay their projected Pythag Throem record. They might lose a game here or there 9-2 but most of the Reds games will be in the 4-2 range. They'll just conceed blowouts.

[wheels]

Hey, what happened to all that thunderous offense from last year?

lol.

In all seriousness, though, pitching and defense. As advertised.

The Reds offense we knew and loved came to an end in 2006.

Is that the first time you used "lol" in a post?

[osuceltic]

2008 pythag record: 10-14;
2009 pythag record: 11-13;

The Reds may be taking a different route but the destination seems eerily similar.

Except for the part about the actual record.

[Mario-Rijo]

I'm not an expert on this Pythag Therom, but I think the Reds are the type of team that can outplay their projected Pythag Throem record. They might lose a game here or there 9-2 but most of the Reds games will be in the 4-2 range. They'll just conceed blowouts.

I agree I have said that if we pitch well and defend well that we can win some with this offense, but we'd have to A.) work peoples starters out of the game and B.) get some timely hits in close games late. In our Division no ones BP really scares me all that much so we can steal a few wins there. That said they aren't real likely to get Votto up with guys on and be in striking range much and expect him to continually deliver. We need some help! Check that Joey needs some help!

[TRF]

At the end of yesteday's game thread WVReds and others brought this up, and it echoed my thoughts, and fears.

As a guy that endured the early 80's, I have much of the same feeling with these guys. I signed up for Extra Innings with Dish after a couple years of hell with DirectTV, and I really thought I'd enjoy it. Truth is, the Reds are putting a vanilla brand of baseball out there, with so many glaring holes on offense it does feel like 82 again.


No way you have Extra Innings with Dish Network.

[Falls City Beer]

The Reds offense we knew and loved came to an end in 2006.

Is that the first time you used "lol" in a post?

In 2006? So wait a minute--the script keeps changing. So Wayne killed the offense? I'm so confused.

And to jojo's post: the argument has so far this season been this, unequivocally: "This offense is the worst since 1982." Not only is that not true, but the offense, despite losing Dunn and Griffey, has scored nearly as many runs as last year's team through 24 games.

I see no reason that the offense won't continue to improve as well, with very few (no?) guys hitting well above their capabilities, and several hitting well below their capabilities. Plus a few x-factors like Nix, Rosales, and even Gonzalez to some extent.

I'll say it once more: this will be an average-hitting team with the possibility for great improvement in pitching and defense. I think the pitching will regress the wrong way a little bit, but actually expect the offense to make pretty solid strides. Provided the pitching doesn't slide too terribly (and right now, it's looking like there's some real life both starting and bullpen), there's no reason the Reds can't hang around until the trade deadline.

I think those who said in the offseason that Johnny Cueto's development was the team's linchpin were dead on.

[jojo]

Except for the part about the actual record.

Which could easily be 9-15 if they had to replay the first 24 again.

[jojo]

And to jojo's post: the argument has so far this season been this, unequivocally: "This offense is the worst since 1982." Not only is that not true, but the offense, despite losing Dunn and Griffey, has scored nearly as many runs as last year's team through 24 games.

I see no reason that the offense won't continue to improve as well, with very few (no?) guys hitting well above their capabilities, and several hitting well below their capabilities. Plus a few x-factors like Nix, Rosales, and even Gonzalez to some extent.

I can't speak to the arguments of others, but I've basically characterized the Reds offense thus far as one that has performed much worse than it's true skill level-e.g. it's an offense that is below average but not historically inept.

[westofyou]

This Year April - http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2009&seasonType=2&split=40&cat=avg&order=true&type=reg

Last Year April - http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=40&cat=avg&order=true&type=reg

Almost 1/2 a HR less a game and a lower BA of almost 30 points. That's the difference. Same TB rate, Same 2b rate, just less HR and hits. .74 Points of OPS

[bucksfan2]

Which could easily be 9-15 if they had to replay the first 24 again.

Yea but they don't have to go back and play those 24 games again. Right now the Reds stand at 13-11. There is no spot for description of how those wins or losses happened. You can't take away any of those wins because they "should have lost that game."

[WMR]

Yea but they don't have to go back and play those 24 games again. Right now the Reds stand at 13-11. There is no spot for description of how those wins or losses happened. You can't take away any of those wins because they "should have lost that game."

Yep. I'm highly enthused with how this season has begun but I still think it's obvious that they need to add at least one big piece--bat--to stand a chance at actual contention.

That's what I want to see.

[Falls City Beer]

Yea but they don't have to go back and play those 24 games again. Right now the Reds stand at 13-11. There is no spot for description of how those wins or losses happened. You can't take away any of those wins because they "should have lost that game."

He's simply pointing out the role of luck. Which is a fair argument.

[nate]

Yea but they don't have to go back and play those 24 games again. Right now the Reds stand at 13-11. There is no spot for description of how those wins or losses happened. You can't take away any of those wins because they "should have lost that game."

True. But a similar run dif over the next 24 games could have Lady Luck blowing on some other guy's dice.

[Roy Tucker]

A 4 page thread on how unwatchable a young 13-11 team is?

Tough crowd.

[REDREAD]

My take is that the team has a chance to hit .500 this year, which would be a huge victory. They will definitely do better than last season's 74 wins.

If they can hit .500, despite losing Dunn, that's something to be proud of.

[osuceltic]

Which could easily be 9-15 if they had to replay the first 24 again.

If we play them again, can we use Rosales instead of EE? The good-hitting Hernandez instead of the bad-hitting Hernandez? The heating-up Jay Bruce instead of the ice-cold Jay Bruce? Laynce Nix instead of Chris Dickerson?

[jojo]

Yea but they don't have to go back and play those 24 games again. Right now the Reds stand at 13-11. There is no spot for description of how those wins or losses happened. You can't take away any of those wins because they "should have lost that game."

Is there a spot in the discussion for considering if the record actually represents progress, i.e. a meaningful increase in talent compared to their rivals?

[redsmetz]

Is there a spot in the discussion for considering if the record actually represents progress, i.e. a meaningful increase in talent compared to their rivals?

I think it shows some progress, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's due to a meaningful increase in talent, as you put it. But it shows the pitchers looks to be as good as many thought it would be. I'm still looking at the view that 2009 is NOT the year, but this team can still win some games. We've discussed back and forth the moves during the off season and whether some players are ready in the minors. I think this club is built to get us through this year, have some players still on board (who aren't the newly developed guys like Bruce and Votto, for example), but to ready for either the final development of some of the minor leaguers, advancement by some of the younger vets and trading some of these chips for pieces that fit towards this club being on a regular winning track.

[durl]

A 4 page thread on how unwatchable a young 13-11 team is?

Tough crowd.

:laugh:

I have to admit that the low-scoring is not as much fun to watch, but I wonder if that's because I'm so used to the Reds pitching staff of old blow just about any lead it was handed. These recent shutouts sure have been fun to watch, though.

[kaldaniels]

Is there a spot in the discussion for considering if the record actually represents progress, i.e. a meaningful increase in talent compared to their rivals?

Every bit of statistics has its flaws...pythag included. Because Bronson Arroyo imploded in one game and gave up 9 runs, the Reds now stink??? Take away that 10-2 game and the Reds have a winning pythag. One game.

I know the argument that you can't cherry-pick statistics, so going there is not necessary. My point is that just because the Reds have a -7 run diff, doesn't mean they are a bad/losing ballclub.

Pythag doesn't account for stinking up the joint in 1 game. During Arroyo's debacle I found myself thinking...I don't care if he gives up 30 runs today, just snap back for your next start and move on. He did just that.

[WMR]

I think it shows some progress, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's due to a meaningful increase in talent, as you put it. But it shows the pitchers looks to be as good as many thought it would be. I'm still looking at the view that 2009 is NOT the year, but this team can still win some games. We've discussed back and forth the moves during the off season and whether some players are ready in the minors. I think this club is built to get us through this year, have some players still on board (who aren't the newly developed guys like Bruce and Votto, for example), but to ready for either the final development of some of the minor leaguers, advancement by some of the younger vets and trading some of these chips for pieces that fit towards this club being on a regular winning track.

The thing is, some years pick you.

If the Reds see a viable chance to make the playoffs, even if due to a somewhat fortuitous, but still well-earned, early season record then they must seize it with both hands. I hope they're actively pursuing that middle of the order bat right now.

This city has been without the playoffs for too long.

[redsmetz]

The thing is, some years pick you.

If the Reds see a viable chance to make the playoffs, even if due to a somewhat fortuitous, but still well-earned, early season record then they must seize it with both hands. I hope they're actively pursuing that middle of the order bat right now.

This city has been without the playoffs for too long.

I won't argue with that, but I'm not interested in paying too high a price.

[wheels]

In 2006? So wait a minute--the script keeps changing. So Wayne killed the offense? I'm so confused.

And to jojo's post: the argument has so far this season been this, unequivocally: "This offense is the worst since 1982." Not only is that not true, but the offense, despite losing Dunn and Griffey, has scored nearly as many runs as last year's team through 24 games.

I see no reason that the offense won't continue to improve as well, with very few (no?) guys hitting well above their capabilities, and several hitting well below their capabilities. Plus a few x-factors like Nix, Rosales, and even Gonzalez to some extent.

I'll say it once more: this will be an average-hitting team with the possibility for great improvement in pitching and defense. I think the pitching will regress the wrong way a little bit, but actually expect the offense to make pretty solid strides. Provided the pitching doesn't slide too terribly (and right now, it's looking like there's some real life both starting and bullpen), there's no reason the Reds can't hang around until the trade deadline.

I think those who said in the offseason that Johnny Cueto's development was the team's linchpin were dead on.

2005 - 820

2006 - 749

2007 - 783

2008 - 704

Those are the Runs Scored over the past four seasons.

The numbers don't lie. Except for a forty or so run burp in 07 (Josh Hamilton), the offense has been in a decline since it reached it's zenith in 05.

I never once said the offense was better last season. Not once. You can come to your own conclusions about why that is, but it's been happening.

I don't think the blame lies with one GM over another. When Krivsky made a good move I was happy, when he made a poor one, I voiced my opinion. The same goes for Walt.

I am nothing if not fair.

I also think you're correct in assuming the offense will improve this season. Progressing towards the mean, though won't be enough to win in the "now".

They're well on their way, but I'm getting jumpy. I wanna see them add a big bat in the WORST way. I've never been a small ball type of guy.

They need at least one big palooka, and I'll be happy.

Does that make me a bad guy now or something?:p:

[wheels]

The thing is, some years pick you.

If the Reds see a viable chance to make the playoffs, even if due to a somewhat fortuitous, but still well-earned, early season record then they must seize it with both hands. I hope they're actively pursuing that middle of the order bat right now.

This city has been without the playoffs for too long.


Man!

That sums it up best.

[VR]

Great pitching in 1982 as well. :)