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View Full Version : at what point do we cut Mike Lincoln?



Will M
05-01-2009, 11:33 AM
8.1 IP
14 hits
2 homers allowed
10 walks
3 KOs
whip 2.9
ERA 15.1

UGLY. this isn't just some bad luck. he can't find the plate and when he does the pitch gets crushed.

i suspect he can't be sent to AAA without his permission. why not pull him aside and say 'lets get you down to AAA & work on whatever the problem might be'. right now nobody is going to give you a major league spot. we have to pay you whether you pitch in Cincinnati or in Louisville. lets see if we can get you pitching better then we'll call you back up.

HotCorner
05-01-2009, 11:47 AM
He's been horrid since the All-Star break last year. It's time to move on.

WMR
05-01-2009, 11:48 AM
Awesome decision giving him a 2 year contract.

Really, just stellar.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2009, 11:59 AM
Mike Lincoln has an ERA of 15.12. The other 11 pitchers on the Reds roster has a combined 3.61 ERA.

I'd cut Lincoln and bring up Carlos Fisher.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm all for cutting Lincoln, but I'd like to replace him with an arm from outside this organization if at all possible.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm all for cutting Lincoln, but I'd like to replace him with an arm from outside this organization if at all possible.

I wouldn't, because there are some nice options available in Louisville, most notably Carlos Fisher.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 12:12 PM
Lincoln since August of 2008:

26.2 IP
40 H
20 BB
15 K
5 HR
2.25 WHIP
10.12 ERA

That's half a season (3 months) of some pretty bad numbers.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 12:19 PM
Josh Roenicke is blowing people away right now in Louisville (7.1 IP, 12 K, 0 BB), after doing the same last year. He'll be 27 in three months. His time is soon, if not now.

Same with Carlos Fisher (10 IP, 12 K, 1 BB) and Robert Manuel (11.2 IP, 14 K, 1 BB). Both are 26.

Lincoln is a sunk cost. Time to move on and see what these guys can do. I know one thing, they can't do any worse.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:20 PM
I know one thing, they can't do any worse.

I'll disagree here. And agree to disagree.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 12:28 PM
I'll disagree here. And agree to disagree.

We'll never know unless they get a shot. Mike Lincoln has had his shot.

redsfandan
05-01-2009, 12:31 PM
Cut a player that is struggling when he's only one month into a 2 year contract? Even if a player in that scenario doesn't have any options I'd expect a dl stint first whether something is 'technically' wrong with him health-wise or not (been done before).

Falls City Beer
05-01-2009, 12:32 PM
We'll never know unless they get a shot. Mike Lincoln has had his shot.

True enough. I'd rather replace failure with guaranteed production, but absent that, I'll settle for hitting on 19.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Cut a player that is struggling when he's only one month into a 2 year contract? Even if a player in that scenario doesn't have any options I'd expect a dl stint first whether something is 'technically' wrong with him health-wise or not (been done before).

Send him somewhere.

Anywhere but back on the mound, pitching for the Reds.

camisadelgolf
05-01-2009, 12:40 PM
Maybe Lincoln can figure things out again while in a mop-up role. The Reds would have to pay him close to $4 million to not play for the Reds anymore. If he can put together a solid few weeks, maybe the Reds can send his contract to a team that needs relief help (and there are always lots of teams looking for relievers). If he doesn't figure things out by the All-Star break, I think it's time to let him go.

Danny Serafini
05-01-2009, 12:42 PM
It's 8 1/3 innings. Sure they're 8 1/3 ugly innings, but it's too soon to panic. I don't care about his rough last month last year, because it's completely unsurprising that a guy who had been out of the game for a few years would hit a wall late in the season. It's not relevant to 2009. Everyone goes through rough stretches, give him a chance to work out of his. He's likely to be pitching in blowout situations for now anyway, so it's not going to hurt the team to let him work through his problems in those spots.

HokieRed
05-01-2009, 12:47 PM
What is his situation on options? Can he be sent to L'ville to work while we bring Fisher or Roenicke? I don't see any reason to cut him but I don't think we're so deep in the bullpen that we can have even one guy we're afraid to use when it matters--not if this team is to be even the remotest of contenders.

camisadelgolf
05-01-2009, 12:52 PM
His three option years were 1999, 2000, and 2002, so optioning him is not an option.

HokieRed
05-01-2009, 12:55 PM
Thanks, Cam, the lack of options makes it a lot tougher.

flyer85
05-01-2009, 12:58 PM
It's 8 1/3 innings. Sure they're 8 1/3 ugly innings, but it's too soon to panic. no panic ... there just isn't much evidence to suggest that Lincoln will be a good pitcher going forward.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 01:03 PM
Awesome decision giving him a 2 year contract.

Really, just stellar.

What's the point of this?

Is it your money? Are you shelling out for his contract? No...


This ownership has shown a willingness to eat bad contracts when it becomes obvious that a player is NOT going to perform/turn it around.

Therefore, sure, in theory, the contract was a bad decision, but it's not like it's ensuring his tenure now is it?

REDREAD
05-01-2009, 01:04 PM
Way too early to panic.

Right now Harrera and Masset are pitching well. If that continues, there's no problem carrying Lincoln and using him in situations where he won't cost us the game.

This reminds me exactly of when Weathers got off to a rough start a couple years ago.

I'd give Lincoln at least until the allstar break.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 01:06 PM
I'm all for cutting Lincoln, but I'd like to replace him with an arm from outside this organization if at all possible.

I don't understand this logic. Would you care to elaborate and break that down for me/us a little?

I mean, going outside the organization just to do so seems a bit...flawed, don't you think?

Last I checked, there are a couple of fellas down on the farm that are tearing it up, pitching-wise (hello Mr. Fisher and Roenicke).

So if there is someone that you'd target outside the organization, great, I'd like to hear who and who you'd give up for said player. But I sure like the idea of bringing up an arm that doesn't cost this team players in return when they wouldn't nec. be any better than what we have.

Color me confused....:confused:

Mario-Rijo
05-01-2009, 01:09 PM
no panic ... there just isn't much evidence to suggest that Lincoln will be a good pitcher going forward.

Likewise not enough evidence to say the opposite either, of course your definition of good and mine could be 2 different things. Alot of people gripe if we have a guy with a mid-high 3 era in the pen for very long (see Weathers). I see nothing to suggest Lincoln can't at least do as well as Weathers has these many years. I agree with Danny it's too soon to make something of this right now and last year has nothing to do with this year neccessarily.

flyer85
05-01-2009, 01:17 PM
Likewise not enough evidence to say the opposite either, of course your definition of good and mine could be 2 different things. actually his career MLB ERA(5.26) in 340+ IP is quite a bit of evidence that he just isn't very good.

cumberlandreds
05-01-2009, 01:27 PM
Thanks, Cam, the lack of options makes it a lot tougher.

He could go to the DL with a "tired" arm. Then go to AAA for rehab. He could stay in rehab for 30 days. It wouldn't surprise me to see this happen pretty soon.

membengal
05-01-2009, 01:33 PM
Way too early to panic.

Right now Harrera and Masset are pitching well. If that continues, there's no problem carrying Lincoln and using him in situations where he won't cost us the game.

This reminds me exactly of when Weathers got off to a rough start a couple years ago.

I'd give Lincoln at least until the allstar break.

I'd rather they have a guy they didn't "have to carry". Lincoln at his best isn't worth that effort. Lincoln now certainly isn't.

Homer Bailey
05-01-2009, 01:58 PM
What's the point of this?

Is it your money? Are you shelling out for his contract? No...


This ownership has shown a willingness to eat bad contracts when it becomes obvious that a player is NOT going to perform/turn it around.

Therefore, sure, in theory, the contract was a bad decision, but it's not like it's ensuring his tenure now is it?

No it's not his money, or my money, but it is a waste of money by the Reds, which may (will) help prevent them from making any moves that involve adding payroll.A one year deal would have saved the Reds a solid stack of cash that could be used in a more useful manner.

redsfandan
05-01-2009, 02:11 PM
It's only a waste of money if he's never useful for the Reds again. Since he was very effective at times last year and he's still a member of the team I think it's a little premature to make that call just yet.

Degenerate39
05-01-2009, 02:18 PM
I've never been high on Lincoln. I wish the Reds wouldn't have signed him and just went with Roenicke or one of the other options in Louisville.

flyer85
05-01-2009, 04:17 PM
I've never been high on Lincoln. I wish the Reds wouldn't have signed him and just went with Roenicke or one of the other options in Louisville.middle relief is fungible

Jpup
05-01-2009, 04:53 PM
actually his career MLB ERA(5.26) in 340+ IP is quite a bit of evidence that he just isn't very good.

ERA is a terrible way to judge a reliever, but you know that.:)

WMR
05-01-2009, 04:56 PM
What's the point of this?

Is it your money? Are you shelling out for his contract? No...


This ownership has shown a willingness to eat bad contracts when it becomes obvious that a player is NOT going to perform/turn it around.

Therefore, sure, in theory, the contract was a bad decision, but it's not like it's ensuring his tenure now is it?

Yep, I'm personally paying for Mike Lincoln's contract.

The point is that wasting resources on unproven players via multi-year contracts is a bad decision and one that I would expect Jocketty to avoid considering his vast experience as a GM.

The fact that we have ownership willing to eat bad contracts doesn't make handing out bad contracts--especially multi-year ones--any less disastrous and asinine.

Homer Bailey
05-01-2009, 05:09 PM
Yep, I'm personally paying for Mike Lincoln's contract.

The point is that wasting resources on unproven players via multi-year contracts is a bad decision and one that I would expect Jocketty to avoid considering his vast experience as a GM.

The fact that we have ownership willing to eat bad contracts doesn't make handing out bad contracts--especially multi-year ones--any less disastrous and asinine.

:KoolAid:


Spot on WMR. (I've never gotten to use that smiley and wanted to try it.)

fearofpopvol1
05-29-2010, 12:40 AM
Not to be Debbie Downer as the Reds have played well, but seriously, there are at least 2 (if not more) pitchers in Louisville that would be better options than Lincoln.

Here are his stats: http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=150221

Add to that a dazzling 1.2 innings tonight of 5 hits, 4 ER and a ERA of 7.5 for the season and you have a lot of suck. The guy is just flat out not very good.

TheNext44
05-29-2010, 12:59 AM
I posted this in another thread, but it fits better here.

He had a 2.77 ERA and was on a 11/12 scoreless inning run two seeks ago. Take away the times that he has gone an extra inning and gotten hammered in that extra inning, and he's been one of the Reds best relievers.

Honestly, I know it sounds crazy, but I would like to see him replace Masset as the setup guy. His stuff is nasty, especially when its only for a hitter or two. That killer curve of his is as good a strikeout pitch as any Reds reliever's. Just stop making him go that extra inning.

traderumor
05-29-2010, 08:26 AM
I posted this in another thread, but it fits better here.

He had a 2.77 ERA and was on a 11/12 scoreless inning run two seeks ago. Take away the times that he has gone an extra inning and gotten hammered in that extra inning, and he's been one of the Reds best relievers.

Honestly, I know it sounds crazy, but I would like to see him replace Masset as the setup guy. His stuff is nasty, especially when its only for a hitter or two. That killer curve of his is as good a strikeout pitch as any Reds reliever's. Just stop making him go that extra inning.I disagree. Lincoln answered a question last night. How big a lead do you have to have for it to be safe to bring him into the game? 12 or more is the answer. I was thinking more like Owings should move up in the pecking order, perhaps the righty to match with Herrera in the 6th or 7th when needed. Bring Del Rosario back up and pair him with Fisher for the long and mop up roles. The only place Lincoln needs to go is DFA.

BTW, the problem with isolating good stretches from bad stretches is that you have no ability to know if good Lincoln or bad Lincoln is what you get. And is good Lincoln good enough or are the Reds desperate enough to have to take the chance? I say the answer to both of those is NO!!!!!!!!

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2010, 10:52 AM
I would like to think that Jocketty is currently on the phones trying to rustle us up a new arm for the pen. It just seems blatantly obvious that we've got to add some depth and stability out there if we want to STAY in first place. Lincoln, Herrera, Masset, Cordero have ALL struggled this year from time to time. The only consistent out there is old man winter Rhodes. And while I love our farm system...I don't see the answer down there right now. Lots of bullpen arms stuggling there too. We need to look OUTSIDE the organization for an arm or two.

Matt700wlw
05-29-2010, 10:55 AM
Lincoln goes when Chapman gets called up.

Sure, why not? :D

Benihana
05-29-2010, 10:57 AM
I disagree. Lincoln answered a question last night. How big a lead do you have to have for it to be safe to bring him into the game? 12 or more is the answer. I was thinking more like Owings should move up in the pecking order, perhaps the righty to match with Herrera in the 6th or 7th when needed. Bring Del Rosario back up and pair him with Fisher for the long and mop up roles. The only place Lincoln needs to go is DFA.

BTW, the problem with isolating good stretches from bad stretches is that you have no ability to know if good Lincoln or bad Lincoln is what you get. And is good Lincoln good enough or are the Reds desperate enough to have to take the chance? I say the answer to both of those is NO!!!!!!!!

This. Lincoln should be DFA'd immediately.

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2010, 10:58 AM
I hope and pray that they don't move Chapman to the pen. Even short term. His stuff is NOT suited for the pen. Slow to warm up, velocity starts out slow and gets higher the deeper he goes in games, has control issues especially early, young pitcher learning the system and the country and doesn't need the added pressure this early...add that all together and you get a bad reliever and a gut shot to his confidence. I know he's got a nasty FB and that would look great in the pen and in a Reds uni...but look at the rest of the stuff and it has trouble written all over it. Just my opinion of course.

Cyclone792
05-29-2010, 11:03 AM
I could care less whether Lincoln's healthy or injured, he's done nothing but pitch like Gary Majewski since the Reds extended him. His curveball is solid ... when it's working. Of course, it isn't working half the time he's on the mound, and he's been a batting tee when it isn't working.

There were several culprits who deserve blame for the Braves debacle, but the single largest contributor to that debacle was Lincoln. On Thursday night, he can't even pitch a scoreless inning in a blow out win. And last night he simply gets rocked again in a blow out win. At this point he shouldn't even sniff the mound unless the Reds have about an eight run lead, and I'd say that's past the point of DFA land.

Scrap Irony
05-29-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd be okay with a Lincoln DFA as long as it brings up a better option. Chapman would be one, IMO. Perhaps a deal for KC's Cruz would work?

How about:

Cruz and Gordon for Valaika, LeCure, and Lincoln? Valaika might make KC's Top Five prospect list and could be starting for them in a couple weeks. Gordon's fallen out of favor and needs a new start. He could play both corner IF spots in the majors or be AAA insurance, allowing Frazier to concentrate on other positions (2B primarily, assuming Reds' brass think he can play there). LeCure would be a fine sixth starter in KC and a Top Ten prospect. Lincoln would be salary ballast and might be a decent one inning guy.

nate
05-29-2010, 11:09 AM
I could care less whether Lincoln's healthy or injured, he's done nothing but pitch like Gary Majewski since the Reds extended him. His curveball is solid ... when it's working. Of course, it isn't working half the time he's on the mound, and he's been a batting tee when it isn't working.

There were several culprits who deserve blame for the Braves debacle, but the single largest contributor to that debacle was Lincoln. On Thursday night, he can't even pitch a scoreless inning in a blow out win. And last night he simply gets rocked again in a blow out win. At this point he shouldn't even sniff the mound unless the Reds have about an eight run lead, and I'd say that's past the point of DFA land.

Hey it's not like he was facing one of the worst offenses in the league!

Err...wait...

:cool:

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2010, 11:12 AM
I could care less whether Lincoln's healthy or injured, he's done nothing but pitch like Gary Majewski since the Reds extended him. His curveball is solid ... when it's working. Of course, it isn't working half the time he's on the mound, and he's been a batting tee when it isn't working.

There were several culprits who deserve blame for the Braves debacle, but the single largest contributor to that debacle was Lincoln. On Thursday night, he can't even pitch a scoreless inning in a blow out win. And last night he simply gets rocked again in a blow out win. At this point he shouldn't even sniff the mound unless the Reds have about an eight run lead, and I'd say that's past the point of DFA land.

Agreed. Last night should be Lincoln's final appearance as a Red.

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2010, 11:12 AM
I'd be okay with a Lincoln DFA as long as it brings up a better option. Chapman would be one, IMO. Perhaps a deal for KC's Cruz would work?

How about:

Cruz and Gordon for Valaika, LeCure, and Lincoln? Valaika might make KC's Top Five prospect list and could be starting for them in a couple weeks. Gordon's fallen out of favor and needs a new start. He could play both corner IF spots in the majors or be AAA insurance, allowing Frazier to concentrate on other positions (2B primarily, assuming Reds' brass think he can play there). LeCure would be a fine sixth starter in KC and a Top Ten prospect. Lincoln would be salary ballast and might be a decent one inning guy.

Juan Cruz? He recently underwent season-ending shoulder surgery.

nate
05-29-2010, 11:18 AM
Juan Cruz? He recently underwent season-ending shoulder surgery.

He'd still be better than Lincoln!

:cool:

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2010, 11:20 AM
He'd still be better than Lincoln!

:cool:

True.

Kc61
05-29-2010, 02:49 PM
When Bailey comes back, Sam Lecure can become the long man out of the pen. Owings can then take Lincoln's spot, if Lincoln departs.

Lincoln was pitching well when limited to about an inning. I think he is not well suited to multiple innings.

Owings is throwing the ball very well and should get a more prominent role.

I've always liked Lecure who is a very steady pitcher and is well suited to a long relief role, if not a fifth starter's role.

dougdirt
05-29-2010, 02:56 PM
When Bailey comes back, Sam Lecure can become the long man out of the pen. Owings can then take Lincoln's spot, if Lincoln departs.

Lincoln was pitching well when limited to about an inning. I think he is not well suited to multiple innings.

Owings is throwing the ball very well and should get a more prominent role.

I've always liked Lecure who is a very steady pitcher and is well suited to a long relief role, if not a fifth starter's role.

I approve of this plan.:thumbup:

RedsMan3203
05-29-2010, 03:05 PM
Join me on Twitter... #FreeMikeLincoln !!!

mth123
05-29-2010, 03:05 PM
When Bailey comes back, Sam Lecure can become the long man out of the pen. Owings can then take Lincoln's spot, if Lincoln departs.

Lincoln was pitching well when limited to about an inning. I think he is not well suited to multiple innings.

Owings is throwing the ball very well and should get a more prominent role.

I've always liked Lecure who is a very steady pitcher and is well suited to a long relief role, if not a fifth starter's role.

Agree with this. My only tweek would be Owings taking Masset's spot and Masset taking Lincoln's lesser role until he gets going again.

corkedbat
05-29-2010, 04:28 PM
Agree with this. My only tweek would be Owings taking Masset's spot and Masset taking Lincoln's lesser role until he gets going again.

I would agree with this and I'd stiil like to see them DFA Lincoln and replace him with a steady BP arm from outside the organization.

TheNext44
05-29-2010, 04:29 PM
Lincoln was pitching well when limited to about an inning. I think he is not well suited to multiple innings.
.

Then why not limit him to one inning? Make him the 8th inning guy. After his first two appearances of this season, he had a 12 game stretch where he only allowed one run and 4 hits in 10 innings.

He's pitched poorly in his last four outings, but in one of them, he pitched two scoreless innings, only to fall apart when he went out for his third inning. He really seems to have most of his problems when he is asked to got an inning longer than he should.

Masset's big problem seems to be that he tries to throw the ball through the catcher every pitch. Make him the long man, where he has to conserve his energy and actually pitch instead of throw. Make Lincoln the short set up man, where he can concentrate on just getting a few batters out, which is where he strives.

I know it sounds crazy, but I think it just might work.

RED VAN HOT
05-29-2010, 06:53 PM
It is frustrating to watch Lincoln. He can break off a sharp curve at the knees and follow it up with a room service fastball that dissects the plate precisely at the waist. It does not seem to be his stuff so much as his command. His ability and past performance are as much reasons for the Reds' patience as his contract. I think last night the Reds simply gave him an opportunity to work on spotting his pitches.

Tony Cloninger
05-29-2010, 07:28 PM
If they wanted to eat his contract they would have already done so.
I keep hoping it would have been done, and if it's not done after last night, then it just is not going to be done anytime soon.

RED VAN HOT
05-29-2010, 08:29 PM
It is frustrating to watch Lincoln. He can break off a sharp curve at the knees and follow it up with a room service fastball that dissects the plate precisely at the waist. It does not seem to be his stuff so much as his command. His ability and past performance are as much reasons for the Reds' patience as his contract. I think last night the Reds simply gave him an opportunity to work on spotting his pitches.

I think I meant to say bisects the plate. If it dissected the plate, it would be very ugly indeed.

Reds1
05-29-2010, 09:32 PM
This is one of the best moves reds can make right now.