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View Full Version : Roenicke and Maloney, MLB ready?



SMcGavin
05-02-2009, 07:57 PM
Both guys have been at AAA for a while now and had a lot of success:

Roenicke: 47.1 IP, 2.66 ERA, 10.4 K/9, 2.6 BB/9

Maloney: 32 GS, 181.1 IP, 4.26 ERA, 8.6 K/9, 2.2 BB/9

There is really nothing to criticize about Roenicke's work. Strikes out a ton, good control. He gets a lot of ground balls too. Maloney's ERA is pretty pedestrian, but a K/BB rate of almost 4 is obviously great. He's been hurt by a lot of HRs and he does have slight fly ball tendencies, but not high enough to suggest his HR rate is going to stay sky high going forward.

Regardless of how you project their future success, I don't think either guy has a lot left to learn at AAA. Roenicke is 27, Maloney 25, so neither is all that young. So the question is, what happens to them? Will the Reds just let them sit in AAA? If I had to guess here's what I think will go down:

-Eventually someone in the pen (probably Lincoln) will get DFA'd and Roenicke will get the call. Or someone will go on the DL, Roenicke will come up, and pitch well enough that they don't want to send him back down. Either way, he'll finish 2009 as part of the Reds bullpen.

-Maloney gets traded before Opening Day 2010 (and goes on to have a solid career with his new team). I'm not sure how high the Reds are on him, and I think Bailey would be next in line anyways if Owings struggles or someone gets hurt. IMO the longer Maloney sits in AAA without making his major league debut, the lower his value goes. If the Reds are hanging around in July and decide they want to pretend they are contenders, I think they use Maloney as part of a package. If not, they deal him in the winter. Either way I don't think he's in the long-term plans.

Thoughts? Is Maloney a goner? Will the Reds wait til Roenicke is 30 to call him up?

redhawk61
05-02-2009, 08:12 PM
Maloney will be an Athletic by August 1st......If you catch my drift.....:cool:

GIDP
05-02-2009, 08:51 PM
I think Maloney is trade bait at this point. He isnt really a better option than any of our in house because of age and just general stuff but hes still a good piece of a trade if you can get him. I dont think Maloney is losing any trade value or really gaining any. He's going to be a toss in on some deal someday. He's probably 5th or 6th on the depth chart when it comes to options in the minors for a spot start.

Roenicke, I doubt they do anything other than just let him pitch in AAA until they feel hes completely ready and will get innings at the major league level. The Reds at this point really are getting late into game from their starters so the bullpen innings are already limited.

GOYA
05-02-2009, 11:08 PM
I think Roenicke got barely beat out of making the opening day roster by Herrera. If there's a move to be made to bring up a reliever, it would be him. UNLESS, Fisher jumps ahead of him. Right now, I'd give the nod to Fisher as being most MLB ready at Louisville.

But for some reason, the Reds FO and I don't agree about things sometimes.

camisadelgolf
05-03-2009, 01:38 AM
Roenicke has worse control thank Francisco Cordero, and like Cordero, I expect his walks to go up when he goes against more selective hitters at the Major League level. I love Roenicke's potential, but at the moment, he's too erratic for my liking--especially if a game is on the line. I definitely prefer Carlos Fisher at this point.

Will M
05-03-2009, 08:07 AM
Maloney needs to stay a Red.

The jury is still out on Owings & Bailey. Arroyo could/should go at the deadline of the Reds aren't really in contention.

The Reds are a small market team who haven't had a winning record in years.
We need to keep the cheap young players. If Maloney can be a cheap MOR or BOR startes for a few years that is a plus for the Reds.

mth123
05-03-2009, 08:21 AM
Maloney needs to stay a Red.

The jury is still out on Owings & Bailey. Arroyo could/should go at the deadline of the Reds aren't really in contention.

The Reds are a small market team who haven't had a winning record in years.
We need to keep the cheap young players. If Maloney can be a cheap MOR or BOR startes for a few years that is a plus for the Reds.

I'd deal Maloney. The Reds are going to need to deal for a bat and some combination of players will need to include a near ready starter. IMO, Maloney is the choice. I don't deal Bailey for a rental, Thompson should be part of the plan in the pen and its doubtful anyone else would be acceptable to a trade partner (maybe Ramirez but he's off to a poor start so probably not). By the time the Reds cycle through Bailey, Masset and maybe Thompson if the team needs an arm later this year, its probable that at least one (maybe more) of the guys like Wood, Buck or Smith will be ready for a try. I think Maloney's combination of being close to ready and his limited long term value make him the logical guy to include in a package.

Degenerate39
05-03-2009, 08:33 AM
Does Burton have any options? It may be wise to send him down for about two weeks and give Roenicke or Fisher a shot.

Kc61
05-03-2009, 09:09 AM
I think we will soon see a number of these major league ready prospects get packaged in a trade. The suggestion in this thread that the Reds may go for Holliday or another A's player is an astute observation IMO.

Homer Bailey is a high level talent and if he's getting it together I expect he's a keeper. You just don't trade a potential top level starting pitcher of age 22-23.

But everyone else is fair game, Maloney, Roenicke, etc. The Reds may be one or two players away from a good major league team and they have the assets to trade for those players.

lidspinner
05-03-2009, 09:16 AM
Honestly, I would package either Maloney or Roenicke to go along with a Bronson and push for Matt Holliday....I know it might sound like alot but Oakland is gonna ask for at least that and draft picks.....You pick up MH with hopes that he pushes this team over the top and brings attendance up....If atendance goes up then managment will be more apt to keep some of our younger stars around..(i.e., Votto, Bruce, JC, EV,)....

Tony Cloninger
05-03-2009, 12:06 PM
12 hits in 8 innings for JR? Are these bleeders...bloops...rollers? That seems like a lot for a good fastball pitcher....especially one with so-so control.

SMcGavin
05-03-2009, 01:04 PM
Maloney needs to stay a Red.

The jury is still out on Owings & Bailey. Arroyo could/should go at the deadline of the Reds aren't really in contention.

The Reds are a small market team who haven't had a winning record in years.
We need to keep the cheap young players. If Maloney can be a cheap MOR or BOR startes for a few years that is a plus for the Reds.

I'm in full agreement. I think he'll be very useful throughout his cheap years, and since he is 25 and not in the bigs yet the Reds will control him into his early 30s. He's a guy where I think the production you could get from him is much higher than what he'd return in a trade. I may be alone on this but I think he's better than Micah Owings right now.

About Roenicke v. Fisher - I almost included Fisher in my post, but he hasn't been at AAA as long as the other two. He's also shown solid improvement from last season, so I didn't include him in the "nothing left to learn at AAA" category. I do agree though that he's pretty close to the bigs and could be up by season's end (though I'd guess Roenicke and Bray are both ahead of him on the depth chart).

Mario-Rijo
05-03-2009, 11:44 PM
I think Maloney is as ready as he will ever be no doubt about it. Roenicke I believe still has some things he can improve. I personally would use either or both for trade bait or I could go along with keeping Roenicke. But Maloney IMO is better off to us in a trade situation now before he steps foot on Major League soil because he will get hit farely hard at GABP. He's a guy I'd look to deal to a team like S.D. or L.A. they could use the arm and he's better suited for that mostly big park division.

RED VAN HOT
05-04-2009, 08:57 AM
I think Maloney is as ready as he will ever be no doubt about it. Roenicke I believe still has some things he can improve. I personally would use either or both for trade bait or I could go along with keeping Roenicke. But Maloney IMO is better off to us in a trade situation now before he steps foot on Major League soil because he will get hit farely hard at GABP. He's a guy I'd look to deal to a team like S.D. or L.A. they could use the arm and he's better suited for that mostly big park division.

I read this post to the end only to find that you had beaten me to the punch regarding Maloney. He will be an effective ML pitcher, but not in Cincinnati. Cultivating pitchers with ground ball tendencies seems to be an important part of the Reds plan. Moreover, the Reds organization has suddenly become deep in starting pitching. Taken together, these circumstances make Maloney an excellent candidate for a trade, especially if he has a good first half. If I had to guess, I would say that a Maloney for "Holliday rental" at the inter-league trade deadline is likely if the Reds are still in contention.

I favor keeping both Roenicke and Fisher. I think they are more valuable as bull pen depth than as trade bait. I would be surprised if both did not see time in Cincinnati this year.

HokieRed
05-04-2009, 09:43 AM
I've more doubts at the moment about Matt Holliday than about the wisdom of dealing Maloney. To date, and the at-bats are at 90 and thus approaching meaningfulness, his line is .233/.281/.367/.648. Not a lot of help there.

SMcGavin
05-04-2009, 10:44 AM
I read this post to the end only to find that you had beaten me to the punch regarding Maloney. He will be an effective ML pitcher, but not in Cincinnati. Cultivating pitchers with ground ball tendencies seems to be an important part of the Reds plan. Moreover, the Reds organization has suddenly become deep in starting pitching. Taken together, these circumstances make Maloney an excellent candidate for a trade, especially if he has a good first half. If I had to guess, I would say that a Maloney for "Holliday rental" at the inter-league trade deadline is likely if the Reds are still in contention.


I do agree that the Reds should favor ground ball guys as a general rule. However, on the Reds current rotation, only Volquez is more of a ground ball guy than Maloney is. Over their careers Harang, Arroyo, and Cueto have been around where I expect Maloney to be, and Owings is a more extreme fly ball pitcher than all of them. So it is definitely possible to succeed in GABP without ground ball tendencies.

Homer Bailey
05-04-2009, 10:54 AM
I've more doubts at the moment about Matt Holliday than about the wisdom of dealing Maloney. To date, and the at-bats are at 90 and thus approaching meaningfulness, his line is .233/.281/.367/.648. Not a lot of help there.

He's hitting in a huge ballpark. He could do some big things in GABP. On the road might be a bit of a different story, but I would still love him in our lineup.

HokieRed
05-04-2009, 11:15 AM
He's hitting in a huge ballpark. He could do some big things in GABP. On the road might be a bit of a different story, but I would still love him in our lineup.

I think there's real danger in letting GABP always be a compensating factor when we evaluate players. That way, we'll tend not to get the better players we should have if we had held those who play for us to higher standards. We'll have players with reasonably good looking stats but we won't have the much better players we could have if we factored out the GABP inflation, particularly in home runs. So unless Holliday shows a lot more in Oakland, I'm not much excited about giving up anything to bring him to GABP on the grounds that he'll produce here. Better to bring up a Bankston or Gomes and let GABP work for them at much less cost to us.

camisadelgolf
05-04-2009, 12:39 PM
Well, I'm fine with trading for Holliday. It's the home games the Reds can't win anyway. :D

RED VAN HOT
05-04-2009, 02:47 PM
I've more doubts at the moment about Matt Holliday than about the wisdom of dealing Maloney. To date, and the at-bats are at 90 and thus approaching meaningfulness, his line is .233/.281/.367/.648. Not a lot of help there.

I agree. I recall some earlier discussions in which the pro-Holliday posters argued that a switch to GABP from Coors would be a push. In his defense, he has moved to different league and a tougher hitter's park. Still, his minor league numbers were very ordinary. His career outside of Denver is unremarkable. I used him as a trade possibility because 1) WJ was rumored to be interested in him during the off season, and 2) Oakland is likely to want to dump salary and get a decent return.

Sadly, even with his current numbers, he could play LF and hit cleanup and be an improvement.

Mario-Rijo
05-04-2009, 03:52 PM
I'd be all for Holliday, I have no concerns about him doing just fine here in GABP and the NL. As RVH rightly pointed out he moved to not only a pitchers park but to a league where he must now get acclimated to the differences. We all know he has to learn new pitchers but more than that a new approach the AL has a more aggressive approach what with the DH and all.

Kingspoint
05-06-2009, 03:56 PM
Maloney should get the first call up whenever that happens to be, though it may not be for at least another month, if no one gets injured. He earned it last year, and is earning it this year.

gedred69
05-06-2009, 09:10 PM
Maloney is a AAAA pitcher. If someone would bite on him + ? for a hitter I'd jump.

HokieRed
05-06-2009, 10:53 PM
Maloney is a AAAA pitcher. If someone would bite on him + ? for a hitter I'd jump.

Agree. I'd be trying to sell the idea to Washington with Willingham as the target.

ChatterRed
05-10-2009, 03:02 AM
Maloney will be an Athletic by August 1st......If you catch my drift.....:cool:

You really think the Reds trade for Matt Holiday? They will never sign the guy.

fearofpopvol1
05-10-2009, 03:21 AM
For the record, Roenicke isn't exactly putting up stellar numbers in Louisville. Maloney isn't exactly killing it either.

kpresidente
05-10-2009, 01:43 PM
For the record, Roenicke isn't exactly putting up stellar numbers in Louisville. Maloney isn't exactly killing it either.

Don't let the ERA fool you.

Roenicke's got a 0.65 FIP, 14 K vs. 0 BB in 10 innings, 1 XBP allowed, and a 50/20 GB%. Problem is his BABiP against is a cool .500. He's pretty much dominating.

SMcGavin
05-10-2009, 02:23 PM
Don't let the ERA fool you.

Roenicke's got a 0.65 FIP, 14 K vs. 0 BB in 10 innings, 1 XBP allowed, and a 50/20 GB%. Problem is his BABiP against is a cool .500. He's pretty much dominating.

Yeah. Roenicke 14 K and 0 BB, Maloney 23 K and 4 BB (FIP = 3.37). Those two have been pretty awesome to start 2009.

Tony Cloninger
05-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Matt is starting to hit homers again. Maybe ..like it was said...he needed to learn the pitchers a little more.

Kc61
05-10-2009, 04:58 PM
Don't let the ERA fool you.

Roenicke's got a 0.65 FIP, 14 K vs. 0 BB in 10 innings, 1 XBP allowed, and a 50/20 GB%. Problem is his BABiP against is a cool .500. He's pretty much dominating.

Roenicke at 15 Ks and 0 walks after winning today's game. He gave up nothing so his ERA and FIP both improved.

Viola fanned four guys in 1.1 innings too.

kpresidente
05-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Roenicke at 15 Ks and 0 walks after winning today's game. He gave up nothing so his ERA and FIP both improved.

Viola fanned four guys in 1.1 innings too.

When I look in my crystal ball at the Reds future bullpen, this is what I see...

CL - Roenicke
SU - Fisher
SU - Viola
MR - Burton
MR - Bray
LOOGY - Herrera
ROOGY - Manuel

Nice. Lot of talent, plus the makeup is an excellent mix with 4 RH, 3 LH. Plus Stewart has to fit in there at some point down the road. Massett might stick around and there'll be options like Ramirez or Thompson who don't make it as starters

thatcoolguy_22
05-11-2009, 04:43 AM
You really think the Reds trade for Matt Holiday? They will never sign the guy.

I wouldn't be too sure of that statement. WJ has a penchant for trading for sluggers and signing them longterm. If he was making a move like picking up holiday in July we would have to be at least in WC contention and Castellini's pockets are deep. I could see him splurge and actually put his money where his mouth is to put the Reds in the post season.

Bob C is a business man at heart and understands that if you improve the product it sells at a greater rate. I could definitely see Holiday getting signed to a LTC here if we get to July with a record 7-10 games over .500.

The only real question at that point would be how we handle Votto and Alonso. I could easily see Votto becoming Youkillis in the sense that since he is such a hard worker he could easily pick up 3B when Yonder is ready.


Not to get the thread off track or anything :)


Onto the actual thread topic....


Roenicke is a stud when he has control. He is ready to take over Mike Lincoln's role as of right now. ML's mechanics are obviously out of sync atm and he could probably use a couple weeks down in Louisville (or just a DFA and be done with... not sure about his contract status either 1 or 2 year though)


I have been on the Maloney bandwagon since last July. Research my post history and it will prove it. He could easily be the 5th starter on this squad right now if it wasn't for Micah's outrageous bat. in 2008 8.5 k/9 vs a 2.5 BB/9 in triple a. in 2009 so far 6.8/1.2 K/bb per 9. for his career he is 9.00/3.01 KK/BB

Maloney's biggest downfall is his stuff isn't "sexy" in terms of minor league prospects and as a result he is now 25 and hasn't had a cup of Joe to date.

Kingspoint
05-11-2009, 08:23 PM
Maloney is a AAAA pitcher. If someone would bite on him + ? for a hitter I'd jump.

I hear that a lot from people....saying someone is AAAA. There's really no such thing.

A Major League career is a Major League career, whether it's 100 AB's or 10,000 AB's.

A person can have a career like Joe Thurston (look him up on your own through www.thebaseballcube.com if you aren't VERY familiar with him, as I noticed George Grande made a fool of himself by calling him a rookie Saturday Night). Thurston has been serviceable in the Majors for the last 7 years, always being that 25th guy, but he's put up some good numbers, better than most players do during their 1st 600 AB's in the Majors.

You don't have to be an everyday player to contribute positively to a team, and you don't know which year a player who's not destined to remain in the Majors for a long time will deliver you a season or half of a season of serviceable major-league caliber play.

There are the rare circumstances where you can say someone's upside is dominating AAA pitching, but they can't hit Major League pitching. 100% of the time, this is because they can dominate a fastball at the AAA level, but they can't hit the changeup at the Major League level.

I suppose the same could be said about a Pitcher, who could get most of the AAA pitchers out because he has one good pitch that he gets consistently over the plate for a strike, but at the Major League level, it won't work because ML'er's can sit on the pitch and force him to get another one over the plate. If he can't do that, then he's a dominant AAA pitcher who can't pitch in the Majors, but he's not a AAAA pitcher.

In the case of Maloney, he's not that guy.

For 90% of the pitchers, it takes two, three or four years to pitch in the Majors before they see any kind of success. Don't judge Maloney on the small cup of coffee he's had in Spring Training. It's not indicative to what he'll do this year.

If there is a need, he deserves to be brought up 1st more than any other player for the REDS.

He's dominating again tonight. 8K's, 0 BB's, 0 Runs through 5.

What's cool about being a REDS' fan the past couple of years, especially now, is I don't have to worry about this stuff anymore. We actually have a complete organization that will choose the right time for the right player when it comes to moves upwards and downwards. We have such a great AAA Manager, and our scouting and player development is top-notch at the moment. I know Rick Sweet isn't the "Pitching Coach" down, there, but he brings a lot of good advice to his minor league pitchers whereever he's been. I know that he's got to be a positive for Maloney, and I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't said something or done something with Maloney that has had a positive effect on him this season.

Mario-Rijo
05-12-2009, 02:48 AM
I hear that a lot from people....saying someone is AAAA. There's really no such thing.

A Major League career is a Major League career, whether it's 100 AB's or 10,000 AB's.

Brandon Larson AAAA player. Killed AAA couldn't hit a lick in the bigs.

That said I think Maloney has a future as a #5, LR or Loogy.

Kingspoint
05-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Brandon Larson AAAA player. Killed AAA couldn't hit a lick in the bigs.



I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm guessing he couldn't hit a Major League changeup.

Mario-Rijo
05-12-2009, 04:19 PM
I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm guessing he couldn't hit a Major League changeup.

Actually I always though his bat was slow. Easier to hit a FB when you are sitting on one because the guy has very few solid offerings he can throw for strikes in AAA, the bigs everything is a strike practically. But I am not positive as to his actual problem. Seems to me if you can hit a FB you can hit a changeup just need some good instruction and practice.

kpresidente
05-13-2009, 04:38 PM
Actually I always though his bat was slow. Easier to hit a FB when you are sitting on one because the guy has very few solid offerings he can throw for strikes in AAA, the bigs everything is a strike practically. But I am not positive as to his actual problem. Seems to me if you can hit a FB you can hit a changeup just need some good instruction and practice.

Hmmm....I'm not sure about that. If you have a big, loopy swing you can knock the cover off a fastball. It's just a matter of timing. You'll never touch an off-speed pitch if you don't shorten up, though.

Kingspoint
05-13-2009, 06:08 PM
Players signed by Bob Filotei:

Player Name Position High Level Signed Year Signing Team Region
Brent Carter P A+ 2005 San Diego Padres Alabama
Nathan Culp P A+ 2006 San Diego Padres Missouri
Drew Cumberland SS A 2007 San Diego Padres Florida
Brooks Dunn P A+ 2006 San Diego Padres Mississippi
David Freese 3B AAA 2006 San Diego Padres Alabama
Brandon Gomes P A+ 2007 San Diego Padres Louisiana
Tommy King 2B AAA 2006 San Diego Padres South Carolina
Brandon Larson 3B MLB 1997 Cincinnati Reds Louisiana
John Madden P AAA 2005 San Diego Padres Alabama
Brad Salmon P MLB 1999 Cincinnati Reds Alabama

Kingspoint
05-13-2009, 06:25 PM
Thought this was interesting. This scout only signed 4 players, but not a bad collection:

Players signed by Alex Smith

Player Name Position High Level Signed Year Signing Team Region

Bill Bray P MLB 2004 Montreal Expos Virginia
Brett Sellers OF Rookie 2008 Washington Nationals Virginia
Daryl Thompson P MLB 2003 Montreal Expos Maryland
Ryan Zimmerman IF MLB 2005 Washington Nationals Virginia

mace
05-14-2009, 02:20 PM
Brandon Larson AAAA player. Killed AAA couldn't hit a lick in the bigs.



Not sure what this had to do with anything, but a few years ago I was down at spring training and the Reds were playing pepper. It was one of Bob Boone's gimmicks. Now, pepper isn't hard. I was never a great hitter, but in a game of pepper I could slap the ball straight to anybody I cared to. Brandon Larson couldn't do that. He couldn't chop the ball into the ground. Often, he couldn't even make contact. I was astonished. Like I said, I don't know how that translates into major-league hitting, but it certainly seemed like there was some sort of significant shortcoming there.