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improbus
05-03-2009, 07:37 PM
When? I would say 1990. The 1999 team had a slightly lower ERA but they didn't have the dominant arms that the Reds have right now.

bigredbunter
05-03-2009, 07:51 PM
When? I would say 1990. The 1999 team had a slightly lower ERA but they didn't have the dominant arms that the Reds have right now.

The 5th starter spot could be a real problem unless Owings figures things out...One thing about the '90 team was they had SOLID numbers out of the 5 spot, led by none other than (drum roll please) Rick Mahler (Charlton also had a handful of starts that year too).

Ghosts of 1990
05-03-2009, 07:53 PM
The 5th starter spot could be a real problem unless Owings figures things out...One thing about the '90 team was they had SOLID numbers out of the 5 spot, led by none other than (drum roll please) Rick Mahler (Charlton also had a handful of starts that year too).

Agree about Owings. I think its a real shame we're missing out on what Bailey could give us because I think as a #5 he'd give us a shot in the arm and be another young gun and we could be one of the most envied rotations in all of baseball. How many teams would love to have a trio of young guns like Cueto, Bailey and Volquez?

I truly think if Bailey was up here he'd be getting a lot of K's with a 3.00 ERA and some wins and basically just being tough to hit.

improbus
05-03-2009, 08:01 PM
The 5th starter spot could be a real problem unless Owings figures things out...One thing about the '90 team was they had SOLID numbers out of the 5 spot, led by none other than (drum roll please) Rick Mahler (Charlton also had a handful of starts that year too).

Owings has thrown four starts. Give him some time. Arroyo has been just as up and down.

schmidty622
05-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Agree about Owings. I think its a real shame we're missing out on what Bailey could give us because I think as a #5 he'd give us a shot in the arm and be another young gun and we could be one of the most envied rotations in all of baseball. How many teams would love to have a trio of young guns like Cueto, Bailey and Volquez?

I truly think if Bailey was up here he'd be getting a lot of K's with a 3.00 ERA and some wins and basically just being tough to hit.

You'd be thinking wrong. There is no chance that Bailey would come up and best his career minor league ERA of 3.79, AND his career AAA ERA of 4.13 by a full point. He hasn't even been "tough to hit" in Louisville until his last few starts. What makes you think that he would come up and be dominant?

Could he match Owings 4.84 ERA? Sure. Could he also get shelled as he has in the past when he has been called up? Yup. Homer is no sure thing and needs more time in AAA as evidenced by his rather pedestrian career numbers down there.

improbus
05-03-2009, 08:21 PM
You'd be thinking wrong. There is no chance that Bailey would come up and best his career minor league ERA of 3.79, AND his career AAA ERA of 4.13 by a full point. He hasn't even been "tough to hit" in Louisville until his last few starts. What makes you think that he would come up and be dominant?

Could he match Owings 4.84 ERA? Sure. Could he also get shelled as he has in the past when he has been called up? Yup. Homer is no sure thing and needs more time in AAA as evidenced by his rather pedestrian career numbers down there.
Agreed 100%

Caveman Techie
05-03-2009, 08:33 PM
Agree about Owings. I think its a real shame we're missing out on what Bailey could give us because I think as a #5 he'd give us a shot in the arm and be another young gun and we could be one of the most envied rotations in all of baseball. How many teams would love to have a trio of young guns like Cueto, Bailey and Volquez?

I truly think if Bailey was up here he'd be getting a lot of K's with a 3.00 ERA and some wins and basically just being tough to hit.

While I agree that Owings is still a question mark, he is less of one than Homer is, and as someone else already pointed out what makes you think Homer could come up to the Majors and put up better numbers than he has EVER put up in the minors?

NJRed
05-03-2009, 08:50 PM
1975 team was'nt too bad

Gary Nolan 15-9
Fred Norman 12-4
Don Gullett 15-4
Jack Billingham 15-10
Pat Darcy 11-4
Clay Kirby 10-6

Reliever

Pedro Borbon 5-3
Clay Carroll 7-5
Will McEnaney 5-2
Tom Carroll 4-1
Rawley Eastwick 5-3

This pitching for what might have been the Best Team of All-Time

ChatterRed
05-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Bailey

2007 9 starts 5.76 e.r.a. with Reds major league team
2008 8 starts 7.96 e.r.a. with Reds major league team
2008 19 starts 4.77 at triple A
2009 5 starts 4.61 at triple A

Current Louisville Starters by e.r.a.:
Matt Maloney 2.59------4 starts
Ben Jukich 3.93---------2 starts
Homer Bailey 4.61 ------5 starts
Sam LeCure 4.98--------5 starts

He's not even the best starting pitcher on his triple A team right now.

Make the guy earn it. He hasn't had to do that ever yet. I think Owings e.r.a. is like 4.84 right now. Geez, Bailey's e.r.a.'s have never been better than that in the majors and are just barely better in the minors.

NeilHamburger
05-03-2009, 10:36 PM
Those numbers are really misleading though. Bailey had two really rough outings to start the year, and has since been great in his last 3. Owings has been bad in every start but one, and really hasn't shown me anything in terms of stuff that makes me believe he'll ever be anything more then another Fogg.

If the 5th spot is gonna struggle, I'd rather it'd be with Bailey, as sooner or later he's gonna need extended time up here. It won't always be pretty, no young pitcher is, but his upside is about 100x greater.

schmidty622
05-03-2009, 10:56 PM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-good-is-your-4-starter/



After going through that procedure for all thirty MLB teams, we can make some generalizations. To start with, here are the averages for each rotation position:

Lg #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
MLB 3.60 4.14 4.58 5.10 6.24
AL 3.70 4.24 4.58 5.09 6.22
NL 3.51 4.04 4.57 5.11 6.26

What immediately jumps out at me is how high the #4 and #5 ERAs are. If there's one thing most people agree on when they talk about rotation spots, it's that a guy with an ERA over 5.00 ought to be your #5 starter. As it turns out, fewer than half of major league teams could claim an ERA under 5.00 from their #4 spot.

In fact, only three teams in baseball got an ERA under 5.00 from their #5 spot: the Tigers (4.48), the White Sox (4.99), and the Padres (4.91). And if we adjusted for park, the Padres would sneak over 5.00. Only two other teams--the Giants (5.18) and the A's (5.16) are under 5.50 from that position. Given the enormous difference between the best teams and the league averages, it's all the more apparent just how valuable rotation depth can be.

To address the issue I raised at the outset, we can use these averages to come up with rough dividing lines between rotation spots. Armed with this data, you can take any pitcher's ERA and eyeball where they would fit in to the average team's starting corps. For instance, in the table below, if a pitcher is between 3.87 and 4.36, he is, on average, a #2 starter.

Spot MLB AL NL
#1/#2 3.87 3.97 3.78
#2/#3 4.36 4.41 4.31
#3/#4 4.84 4.84 4.84
#4/#5 5.67 5.66 5.68

After going through that procedure for all thirty MLB teams, we can make some generalizations. To start with, here are the averages for each rotation position:

Lg #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
MLB 3.60 4.14 4.58 5.10 6.24
AL 3.70 4.24 4.58 5.09 6.22
NL 3.51 4.04 4.57 5.11 6.26

What immediately jumps out at me is how high the #4 and #5 ERAs are. If there's one thing most people agree on when they talk about rotation spots, it's that a guy with an ERA over 5.00 ought to be your #5 starter. As it turns out, fewer than half of major league teams could claim an ERA under 5.00 from their #4 spot.

In fact, only three teams in baseball got an ERA under 5.00 from their #5 spot: the Tigers (4.48), the White Sox (4.99), and the Padres (4.91). And if we adjusted for park, the Padres would sneak over 5.00. Only two other teams--the Giants (5.18) and the A's (5.16) are under 5.50 from that position. Given the enormous difference between the best teams and the league averages, it's all the more apparent just how valuable rotation depth can be.

To address the issue I raised at the outset, we can use these averages to come up with rough dividing lines between rotation spots. Armed with this data, you can take any pitcher's ERA and eyeball where they would fit in to the average team's starting corps. For instance, in the table below, if a pitcher is between 3.87 and 4.36, he is, on average, a #2 starter.

Spot MLB AL NL
#1/#2 3.87 3.97 3.78
#2/#3 4.36 4.41 4.31
#3/#4 4.84 4.84 4.84
#4/#5 5.67 5.66 5.68.

Those are numbers from 2006 but numbers for rotation spots should stay relatively stable throughout baseball from year to year.

Owings has a 4.84 Era in the Reds #5 spot. If the average #5 starter has a Era at or around 6 and some change, how exactly has Owings been bad?

No he's not a dominating force. No he's not sexy. What do you expect out of a number 5? What has he done to lose his spot?

Roush's socks
05-03-2009, 11:28 PM
Agree with last post. Anything under 5.00 ERA is good for a 5th starter,and he had one really dominant game. If he mixes one of those in every 3-4 starts combined with his hitting he will be effective.

Shawn_RedsFan
05-03-2009, 11:49 PM
Those numbers are really misleading though. Bailey had two really rough outings to start the year, and has since been great in his last 3. Owings has been bad in every start but one, and really hasn't shown me anything in terms of stuff that makes me believe he'll ever be anything more then another Fogg.

If the 5th spot is gonna struggle, I'd rather it'd be with Bailey, as sooner or later he's gonna need extended time up here. It won't always be pretty, no young pitcher is, but his upside is about 100x greater.

Amen brother. :clap:

ChatterRed
05-04-2009, 12:55 AM
Those numbers are really misleading though. Bailey had two really rough outings to start the year, and has since been great in his last 3. Owings has been bad in every start but one, and really hasn't shown me anything in terms of stuff that makes me believe he'll ever be anything more then another Fogg.

If the 5th spot is gonna struggle, I'd rather it'd be with Bailey, as sooner or later he's gonna need extended time up here. It won't always be pretty, no young pitcher is, but his upside is about 100x greater.

Or maybe he gets shelled like the last 2 years and lowers his value.

Maybe letting him rack up a good year in triple A will increase his trade value and by the trade deadline, we get our RH power bat we've been looking for.

We've seen this song and dance from Bailey before. I've never fallen for it, but many continue to.

He needs to earn it. Meanwhile, Owings hasn't been bad. He's probably one of the best #5 starters in the league in terms of e.r.a.

Captain Hook
05-04-2009, 01:29 AM
......1990

I think our current staff has a chance to be the best ever that I can actually remember making them better then our guys in 1990.Its looking good so far but we still have a long ways to go.For now I'll go with the Champs.


SP Jose Rijo
SP Tom Browning
SP Jack Armstrong
SP Danny Jackson
SP Rick Mahler
SP/RP Norm Charlton

RP Tim Birtsas
RP Rob Dibble
RP Tim Layana
CL Randy Myers

bigredbunter
05-04-2009, 09:34 AM
Meanwhile, Owings hasn't been bad. He's probably one of the best #5 starters in the league in terms of e.r.a.


Well, I guess if you're just using ERA as the metric, then Owings doesn't look too bad. If you look at his peripherals, they paint an interesting picture:

WHIP: 1.62
H/9: 10.1 (ouch)
BB/9: 4.4
K/ 9: 4.4

So Owings, who gives up 14.5 baserunners per game via hits or walks, is due for an upward correction in his ERA. His BB/9 and K/9 are all at career LOWS for him. I'm not suggesting he's not useful. Though, I will say that his ERA belies a smoke and mirrors game that has benefitted from luck and defense. I hope that when his peripherals catch up to his ERA, Bailey is ready to step into the number 5.

I don't mind riding the Owings train...I just think that if this team is gonna contend they're going to need to get off the train before the AS break if not sooner.

ChatterRed
05-04-2009, 11:02 AM
Well, I guess if you're just using ERA as the metric, then Owings doesn't look too bad. If you look at his peripherals, they paint an interesting picture:

WHIP: 1.62
H/9: 10.1 (ouch)
BB/9: 4.4
K/ 9: 4.4

So Owings, who gives up 14.5 baserunners per game via hits or walks, is due for an upward correction in his ERA. His BB/9 and K/9 are all at career LOWS for him. I'm not suggesting he's not useful. Though, I will say that his ERA belies a smoke and mirrors game that has benefitted from luck and defense. I hope that when his peripherals catch up to his ERA, Bailey is ready to step into the number 5.

I don't mind riding the Owings train...I just think that if this team is gonna contend they're going to need to get off the train before the AS break if not sooner.

Wow. I hear the argument all the time about how many of the great pitchers didn't start out too well early in their careers.

Greg Maddux had a 5.52 and 5.61 e.r.a. in his first two seasons. And he was not a fastball pitcher, but relied on position and off speed stuff.

Tom Glavine was a combined 9-21 in his first two seasons with e.r.a.'s of 5.54 and 4.56.

Micah Owings was just drafted in 2005. He debuted in 2007 for Arizona.
Homer Bailey was drafted in 2004. He debuted in 2007 for the Reds.

Side by side stats:
Owings 2007 - 4.30 e.r.a., 1.28 WHIP
Bailey 2007 -- 5.77 e.r.a., 1.57 WHIP

Owings 2008 (injured) - 5.93 e.r.a., 1.39 WHIP
Bailey 2008 ----------- 7.93 e.r.a., 2.09 WHIP

Owings 2009 (REDS) -- 4.84 e.r.a., 1.61 WHIP
Bailey 2009 (Triple A) - 4.61 e.r.a., 1.39 WHIP

Here's an example of Owings minor league stats:
2005 (single A) -------2.45 e.r.a. in 16 games out of the bullpen
2006 (double A)-------2.88 e.r.a., 6-2, in 12 starts
2006 (triple A) -------3.75 e.r.a., 10-0, in 15 starts

Which player earned a promotion to the big leagues?

Latiger12
05-04-2009, 11:11 AM
Some guys just get off to a slow start.

The Tiger...
http://secsportschat.com/sport-chats/img/3760/q09j0504ewht/reds.gif

Kingspoint
05-04-2009, 04:10 PM
Before the season started, I already said this is the REDS' best pitching staff since before I was born, and that was in 1959.

My quote from March 19th:

"Yeah, I know....not really trying to show the best way to figure it out....just having fun with the strength of the team. I'm really impressed at how good it is. I'm turning 50 in June and this is the best starting pitching I've seen on a REDS team for the 40 years that I've followed them closely. We've never been able to develop our own pitching, and I still don't know if we can, but the trades that brought Thompson, Volquez, Arroyo, and Harang here, combined with the two home-grown players in Cueto and Bailey, have made it pretty cool to be a REDS' fan again. I'm OK with Jockety, but I sure wish we still had Krivsky."

WildcatFan
05-04-2009, 04:29 PM
Not to keep the Owings conversation going too much, but The Hardball Times did an interesting piece in 2006 on fifth starters and ERAs. The best teams in baseball (they did it by playoff teams) had an average 5.80 ERA from their fifth slot. The league average for all teams at every slot was:

#1: 3.60 #2: 4.14 #3: 4.58 #4: 5.10 #5: 6.24

By that measuring stick, the Reds (and I'm doing this by ERA, not our perceived rotation slots), are at

Cueto: 1.65 Harang: 3.09 Volquez: 4.45 Owings: 4.84 Arroyo: 4.91

That's better than league average (in 2005, at least) at every slot. According to The Hardball Times, even if you get sub-5.50 ERAs from your worst two pitchers, you are in good shape. I think Owings is a perfect fit for the Reds' fifth hole because you know what you're going to get from him every night. Homer will hopefully step up in time to take Arroyo's place whenever he gets dealt or runs out of contract.

WildcatFan
05-04-2009, 04:41 PM
Also, the ERAs of the 1-5 slots of the 1990 team:

Rijo: 2.70 Armstrong: 3.42 Jackson: 3.61 Mahler/Charlton/Scudder: 3.77 Browning: 3.80

I think we can determine that was a better pitching team than this year's

Captain Hook
05-04-2009, 06:27 PM
Also, the ERAs of the 1-5 slots of the 1990 team:

Rijo: 2.70 Armstrong: 3.42 Jackson: 3.61 Mahler/Charlton/Scudder: 3.77 Browning: 3.80

I think we can determine that was a better pitching team than this year's

I was going to put the ERAs for the 1990 staff.I decided not to just because it was a different era and a different ballpark(not to mention all the other teams that have new offensive friendly ball parks).I think that while wins are a somewhat overrated stat for pitchers Ws will say a lot for how our current guys did this season.The 1990 starters had nice ERAs but a lot of ND.I'm sure that the bullpen carried a lot of weight for the starters that season.

Still, I agree the edge goes to the 1990 team.

ChatterRed
05-04-2009, 07:07 PM
Also, the ERAs of the 1-5 slots of the 1990 team:

Rijo: 2.70 Armstrong: 3.42 Jackson: 3.61 Mahler/Charlton/Scudder: 3.77 Browning: 3.80

I think we can determine that was a better pitching team than this year's

Rijo and Soto are my all-time favorite Reds pitchers.

It will be hard to match up to Rijo.

But still, I think Cueto-Volquez-Harang can be every bit as good as the top 3 1990 starters. Arroyo = Browning in my book.

Handofdeath
05-04-2009, 07:22 PM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-good-is-your-4-starter/




Those are numbers from 2006 but numbers for rotation spots should stay relatively stable throughout baseball from year to year.

Owings has a 4.84 Era in the Reds #5 spot. If the average #5 starter has a Era at or around 6 and some change, how exactly has Owings been bad?

No he's not a dominating force. No he's not sexy. What do you expect out of a number 5? What has he done to lose his spot?

Very good post.

improbus
05-04-2009, 07:29 PM
I was going to put the ERAs for the 1990 staff.I decided not to just because it was a different era and a different ballpark(not to mention all the other teams that have new offensive friendly ball parks).I think that while wins are a somewhat overrated stat for pitchers Ws will say a lot for how our current guys did this season.The 1990 starters had nice ERAs but a lot of ND.I'm sure that the bullpen carried a lot of weight for the starters that season.

Still, I agree the edge goes to the 1990 team.
The fact that we are comparing the current Reds to the 1990 WS champs is a real sign of how good this staff is. If we had a slightly above average offense, we would be extremely dangerous.

bigredbunter
05-04-2009, 08:45 PM
Wow. I hear the argument all the time about how many of the great pitchers didn't start out too well early in their careers.

Greg Maddux had a 5.52 and 5.61 e.r.a. in his first two seasons. And he was not a fastball pitcher, but relied on position and off speed stuff.

Tom Glavine was a combined 9-21 in his first two seasons with e.r.a.'s of 5.54 and 4.56.

Micah Owings was just drafted in 2005. He debuted in 2007 for Arizona.
Homer Bailey was drafted in 2004. He debuted in 2007 for the Reds.

Side by side stats:
Owings 2007 - 4.30 e.r.a., 1.28 WHIP
Bailey 2007 -- 5.77 e.r.a., 1.57 WHIP

Owings 2008 (injured) - 5.93 e.r.a., 1.39 WHIP
Bailey 2008 ----------- 7.93 e.r.a., 2.09 WHIP

Owings 2009 (REDS) -- 4.84 e.r.a., 1.61 WHIP
Bailey 2009 (Triple A) - 4.61 e.r.a., 1.39 WHIP

Here's an example of Owings minor league stats:
2005 (single A) -------2.45 e.r.a. in 16 games out of the bullpen
2006 (double A)-------2.88 e.r.a., 6-2, in 12 starts
2006 (triple A) -------3.75 e.r.a., 10-0, in 15 starts

Which player earned a promotion to the big leagues?

Owings: 26 years old
Bailey: 22 years old

What we've seen so far from Owings this year is what we're likely to keep seeing. His ERA will rise because his peripherals are nasty. If you like what he brings--then fine. I just hope you stay on the Owings train when his ERA is hanging out in the 5.50-6.00 range.

schmidty622
05-04-2009, 09:33 PM
Owings: 26 years old
Bailey: 22 years old

What we've seen so far from Owings this year is what we're likely to keep seeing. His ERA will rise because his peripherals are nasty. If you like what he brings--then fine. I just hope you stay on the Owings train when his ERA is hanging out in the 5.50-6.00 range.

I love this idea that because we are for Owings, or any player for that matter, at this point in time, that it means that we have to be on the "Owings Train" forever and ever.

If Owings puts up numbers in the 5.50 - 6.00 ERA range, guess what? I'll be posting on here saying the Reds need a replacement.

The fact is, he hasn't put up those kinds of numbers yet so there is really no reason for him to lose his spot in the rotation. No matter how youthful and exciting Bailey may be.

WildcatFan
05-04-2009, 11:04 PM
By the way, I just realized that I talked about the same Hardball Times article that Schmidty did, whoops. Didn't read the thread closely enough.

bigredbunter
05-04-2009, 11:54 PM
I love this idea that because we are for Owings, or any player for that matter, at this point in time, that it means that we have to be on the "Owings Train" forever and ever.

If Owings puts up numbers in the 5.50 - 6.00 ERA range, guess what? I'll be posting on here saying the Reds need a replacement.

The fact is, he hasn't put up those kinds of numbers yet so there is really no reason for him to lose his spot in the rotation. No matter how youthful and exciting Bailey may be.

If you liked Matt Belisle's 2007 numbers, I have a feeling that the 2009 version of Micah Owings will really whet your appetite. That's what Owings is, basically. He's 2007 Belisle (albeit with a markedly worse k/9).

If you want to get on that train and get off when his numbers inevitably implode--That's fine I suppose---

One alternative would be calling Owings what he is (a bad number 5 starter or a mop up long-reliever of limited pitching utility who has managed to hang around by virtue of his hitting) and avoid getting on that train to begin with. I think the Reds should count their lucky stars that the 14 baserunners he's been putting on per nine haven't fully caught up with him yet, and start fully lining up plan B (whether that be Bailey or someone else).

ChatterRed
05-05-2009, 12:59 AM
I love this idea that because we are for Owings, or any player for that matter, at this point in time, that it means that we have to be on the "Owings Train" forever and ever.

If Owings puts up numbers in the 5.50 - 6.00 ERA range, guess what? I'll be posting on here saying the Reds need a replacement.

The fact is, he hasn't put up those kinds of numbers yet so there is really no reason for him to lose his spot in the rotation. No matter how youthful and exciting Bailey may be.

Bingo!

I love a voice of reason in the wilderness.

Griffey012
05-05-2009, 01:08 AM
I love this idea that because we are for Owings, or any player for that matter, at this point in time, that it means that we have to be on the "Owings Train" forever and ever.

If Owings puts up numbers in the 5.50 - 6.00 ERA range, guess what? I'll be posting on here saying the Reds need a replacement.

The fact is, he hasn't put up those kinds of numbers yet so there is really no reason for him to lose his spot in the rotation. No matter how youthful and exciting Bailey may be.

Exactly, even though he has dominated once and not been very pretty the other times, the moral is we have been in I believe every game he has pitched. That is all we really need out of a 5th starter until someone loses their spot (Owings) or someone takes this spot (Bailey, Maloney, etc.) I want nothing more than Owings to succeed, but also want nothing more than Bailey to mow down hitters in triple A and create more of these debates. I am all for whoever is pitching in the reds uni regardless of potential, age, or whatever, I just want W's. Hell, if Chris Michalek can throw 82 and consistently get hitters out then pencil him in over someone who throws 95 if they can't get hitters out (hypothetical).

schmidty622
05-05-2009, 11:01 PM
6th shutout of the year! only 6 shutouts all of last year!

Shawn_RedsFan
05-05-2009, 11:05 PM
nice to see nice to see, what is our pitching rated after tonight??

GIDP
05-05-2009, 11:17 PM
Our pitching staff is a WS winner. Too bad our offense is a last place finisher

Shawn_RedsFan
05-05-2009, 11:41 PM
Our pitching staff is a WS winner. Too bad our offense is a last place finisher

last place?? i wouldn't go that far buddy

GOYA
05-05-2009, 11:50 PM
last place?? i wouldn't go that far buddy

Is it worth arguing 26th out of 30?

Pitching is currently 2nd in the majors in ERA behind the Pirates.

WildcatFan
05-05-2009, 11:54 PM
Pitching is currently 2nd in the majors in ERA behind the Pirates.

Well in that case enjoy what's left of the season because the end of the world is near.

GOYA
05-06-2009, 01:05 AM
last place?? i wouldn't go that far buddy

Is it worth arguing 27th out of 30?

Pitching is currently 2nd in the majors in ERA behind the Pirates.

bigredbunter
05-06-2009, 01:18 AM
Our pitching staff is a WS winner. Too bad our offense is a last place finisher

They really need to go after a big bat.....First time in nearly 20 years I've seen Reds pitching this good....It would be a shame to waste it.

ciesaro
05-06-2009, 01:44 AM
It would be interesting if either Volquez or Cueto will eventually turn into the next Mario Soto. BTW, I go back to 1970 following "The Big Red Machine."

RedLegsToday
05-06-2009, 09:14 AM
Best Reds pitching staff since.... 1940. :)

flash
05-06-2009, 02:47 PM
Just checked. The Reds' pitching staff curently has the best ERA in the majors.

flash
05-06-2009, 10:18 PM
Best Reds pitching staff since.... 1940. :)

You're right. Avccording to the Elias Sports bureau the last time the Reds led the league in ERA was 1940. the last time they had 4 shutouts in six games was 1970. That had to be early in that year

gedred69
05-06-2009, 10:54 PM
This staff is good. Real good. Even considering Owings, (not bad for a 5th), and Arroyo's every 5th game, ala tonight. Historically, ---and I'm dating myself,---- the '61 staff was tough. 3 SPs that won 16, 19, 21 games, knuckler Purkey, Browningesque O'Toole, and dominating Jay. Henry to set-up, and Brosnan to close. That staff also included in the relief role then, a young Jim Maloney. (I'm thinking he threw a no hitter or two in his career).

ChatterRed
05-06-2009, 11:08 PM
They dropped to 10th with tonight's performance.

Just kidding.

brachial pleXUs
05-07-2009, 03:08 AM
If everybody else holds thier ground, a team ERA of 3.99 (according to Reds.com) puts the Reds at 9th. If teams above also got the snot knocked out of them, the Reds will be higher. If teams below the Reds, especially the Tigers, pitched well tonight, we could be 10th or worse. Just when we were getting some respect.

REDblooded
05-07-2009, 05:34 AM
I would love to flip Arroyo for any decent RH bat and bring up Homer... He's going to be inconsistent too, but he'll be every bit as effective as Arroyo, and a fraction of the cost, and whatever Arroyo could bring in trade would be worth it.