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View Full Version : Is Pujols on deck???



icehole3
05-08-2009, 06:30 AM
Albert has to be on deck to get busted

http://i3.iofferphoto.com/img/item/285/711/32/o_2PUJOLS.jpg

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c61ab53ef011279749eb628a4-120wi


http://www.stlouiscardinalwallpaper.com/images/wallpaper_pujols_800x600.jpg


http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Happy/HappyWave.gif

membengal
05-08-2009, 06:33 AM
Uncool.

Redsfaithful
05-08-2009, 07:34 AM
I have no idea, but it's not like he wasn't ripped in those top pictures. You've got him in a jersey and younger vs form fitting clothes and older and more filled out in the bottom pics.

Some guys actually can carry muscle without steroids, crazy I know.

RedFanAlways1966
05-08-2009, 07:35 AM
Some might blame icehole for posting this, but I don't. I blame the Union and the MLB-powers (Bud and crew) for causing people to think like this. Going to be a long time before this mindset is eliminated.

Now... I do notice a receding hairline. I also notice a far from perfect complexion on that face. Wonder why I say this? Google-up "steroids side effects" and see what ya get. Of course many men have the same two things going on and do not take PEDs. But when you look that big, play MLB for a living and have those things (hello Bud and Union), then you will be mentioned.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2009, 08:00 AM
I just want to know why he's wearing a wooden mask in that one picture. :confused:

HotCorner
05-08-2009, 08:36 AM
I just want to know why he's wearing a wooden mask in that one picture. :confused:

It's not a mask. It's the roid rage. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
05-08-2009, 08:39 AM
They should just release the list and get it over with.

BCubb2003
05-08-2009, 08:58 AM
I have to admit I was a little surprised to hear Brantley put Pujols in the never-shadowed-by-questions category, the one we always put Griffey in. I can't accuse anyone, but a lot of these players have long relationships with questionable personal trainers and seem unmotivated to take any sort of stand to clean up their sport.

redsfandan
05-08-2009, 09:09 AM
Some might blame icehole for posting this, but I don't. I blame the Union and the MLB-powers (Bud and crew) for causing people to think like this. Going to be a long time before this mindset is eliminated.
I agree. Unfortunately noone is beyond suspicion anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if Pujols did have some help just like I wasn't surprised when Manny was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. What surprised me were the singles hitters that never had any real power and were named. We want to believe that these guys, our favorite players, couldn't be guilty. It's just a little harder these days when we've been shown that all types of players used.

RBA
05-08-2009, 09:14 AM
He plays for the Cardinals. Anyone on that team in the last 15 years is suspect.

bucksfan2
05-08-2009, 09:22 AM
I hope Pujols isn't guilty. Even though he plays for the Cards I have always enjoyed watching him because he is the best player in baseball right now. The thing about Pujols is he was always a "big boned" person. He never was rail thin and had the frame to add muscle if done the proper way. It isn't unheard of a player that puts on muscle once he gets into proper weight training. Hopefully Pujols did it the clean way.

westofyou
05-08-2009, 09:54 AM
Ooooooo I love a good Witch Hunt

What happens when it's a Red... funny thread then too!!

Can't wait!!

Degenerate39
05-08-2009, 10:19 AM
If Pujols can get suspended for 50 games that would help the Reds out a lot

medford
05-08-2009, 10:23 AM
I think we did have our little "witch hung" with keymastur. I believe he was named in the list of offenders at some point as well. Perhaps the most entertaining couple of hours in redszone minor league forum history, but he came off as a bit of a jackass initially, so its not like he had many friends then. Strangely enough, once he was outed on RZ, and prior to his call up, his attitued changed a bit and he was quite informative and insightful.

icehole3
05-08-2009, 10:34 AM
I think we did have our little "witch hung" with keymastur. I believe he was named in the list of offenders at some point as well. Perhaps the most entertaining couple of hours in redszone minor league forum history, but he came off as a bit of a jackass initially, so its not like he had many friends then. Strangely enough, once he was outed on RZ, and prior to his call up, his attitued changed a bit and he was quite informative and insightful.

guess who outed keymastur

medford
05-08-2009, 10:46 AM
You? I don't really remember it all, or heck even the name of the catcher involved at this point, but I do remember the thread, viewing his myspace page as well as posts on some steriod users website all w/ the same screen name and several coming to the conclusion that it had to be him. Then I think 1 or 2 took it a bit too far by screen saving all his posts from the steriod board and pledging to forward thema long to NY for Bud's review (or whomever would actually review that).

At any rate it was entertaining, but that guy was pretty stupid about it, flounting his use on the steriod board, as well as his connection to baseball, then using the same screen name on redszone as well as mentions on his myspace page. Ironic that he claimed you'd have to be pretty stupid to actually get caught, then low & behold he was suspended from baseball for PEDs a year or 2 later.

At any rate it was entertaining, but I don't think it would be nearly as enjoyable if it had been about Votto, Bruce, Voltron or Cueto. In fact if any of them were about to miss 50 games I think it would pretty much suck.

membengal
05-08-2009, 10:46 AM
The gatekeeper?

Degenerate39
05-08-2009, 10:48 AM
guess who outed keymastur

That was an entertaining thread

westofyou
05-08-2009, 10:48 AM
guess who outed keymastur

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/shooting-fish-in-a-barrel.jpeg

membengal
05-08-2009, 11:03 AM
Was it Gozer the Gozerian?

membengal
05-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Dr. Egon Spengler: Vinz, you said before you were waiting for a sign. What sign are you waiting for?

Louis: Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

membengal
05-08-2009, 11:08 AM
Dr Ray Stantz: Gozer the Gozerian... good evening. As a duly designated representative of the City, County and State of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension.

Dr. Peter Venkman: [Sarcastically] That oughta do it. Thanks very much, Ray.

icehole3
05-08-2009, 11:21 AM
You? I don't really remember it all, or heck even the name of the catcher involved at this point, but I do remember the thread, viewing his myspace page as well as posts on some steriod users website all w/ the same screen name and several coming to the conclusion that it had to be him. Then I think 1 or 2 took it a bit too far by screen saving all his posts from the steriod board and pledging to forward thema long to NY for Bud's review (or whomever would actually review that).

At any rate it was entertaining, but that guy was pretty stupid about it, flounting his use on the steriod board, as well as his connection to baseball, then using the same screen name on redszone as well as mentions on his myspace page. Ironic that he claimed you'd have to be pretty stupid to actually get caught, then low & behold he was suspended from baseball for PEDs a year or 2 later.

At any rate it was entertaining, but I don't think it would be nearly as enjoyable if it had been about Votto, Bruce, Voltron or Cueto. In fact if any of them were about to miss 50 games I think it would pretty much suck.

yep, I blew that thing wide open

RedlegJake
05-08-2009, 02:51 PM
Nope. I don't believe Pujols is involved. He's never been named or suspected and until there is something - even smoke involving his name I just give him the benefit. And I hope like heck he is clean because baseball needs "clean" heroes to carry the game away from the 'roid era. Another I don't believe he's involved? Testing is better now, guys have quit and seen their numbers decline and yet Pujols numbers show no decline whatever. If anything he just keeps getting better. There are enough guys with dirt on them. Threads like this serve no purpose except to vilify guys that haven't been named in anything.

Chip R
05-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Nope. I don't believe Pujols is involved. He's never been named or suspected and until there is something - even smoke involving his name I just give him the benefit. And I hope like heck he is clean because baseball needs "clean" heroes to carry the game away from the 'roid era. Another I don't believe he's involved? Testing is better now, guys have quit and seen their numbers decline and yet Pujols numbers show no decline whatever. If anything he just keeps getting better. There are enough guys with dirt on them. Threads like this serve no purpose except to vilify guys that haven't been named in anything.


How is testing better when the only way Manny gets busted is for something that replenishes the testosterone he lost while juicing?

I doubt Pujols is a juicer but I wouldn't be surprised if anyone is found out.

VR
05-08-2009, 02:58 PM
I still don't understand how Bud Selig hasn't been banished.

deltachi8
05-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Ooooooo I love a good Witch Hunt

What happens when it's a Red... funny thread then too!!

Can't wait!!

+1

Do they sell pitchforks with a Redszone logo on them?

Falls City Beer
05-08-2009, 03:14 PM
You? I don't really remember it all, or heck even the name of the catcher involved at this point, but I do remember the thread, viewing his myspace page as well as posts on some steriod users website all w/ the same screen name and several coming to the conclusion that it had to be him. Then I think 1 or 2 took it a bit too far by screen saving all his posts from the steriod board and pledging to forward thema long to NY for Bud's review (or whomever would actually review that).

At any rate it was entertaining, but that guy was pretty stupid about it, flounting his use on the steriod board, as well as his connection to baseball, then using the same screen name on redszone as well as mentions on his myspace page. Ironic that he claimed you'd have to be pretty stupid to actually get caught, then low & behold he was suspended from baseball for PEDs a year or 2 later.

At any rate it was entertaining, but I don't think it would be nearly as enjoyable if it had been about Votto, Bruce, Voltron or Cueto. In fact if any of them were about to miss 50 games I think it would pretty much suck.

:cool::starwars:

Chip R
05-08-2009, 03:18 PM
Ooooooo I love a good Witch Hunt

What happens when it's a Red... funny thread then too!!

Can't wait!!


We should see if Pujols floats.

deltachi8
05-08-2009, 03:32 PM
We should see if Pujols floats.

Is he made of wood?

redsbuckeye
05-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Is he made of wood?

So...if he weighs as much as a duck.....he's....made of wood??

Johnny Footstool
05-08-2009, 03:50 PM
Controversy has followed Pujols since he was very young. There have been questions about his actual age along with questions about PEDs.

medford
05-08-2009, 04:08 PM
IIRC there were rumurs that Pujols was on the original investigation list when it was about to be released. His name never actually did appear and it raised quite a beef from the Cards camp.

I think there were a couple of other names that were allegedly leaked to be on the list, then never found on the actual report.

RedEye
05-08-2009, 04:09 PM
Ooooooo I love a good Witch Hunt

What happens when it's a Red... funny thread then too!!

Can't wait!!

WOY, assuming you are being sarcastic here, I am totally of the same mind.

RedFanAlways1966
05-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Don't see it as a witch-hunt. I do feel bad for innocent individuals. Here is who made the bed in which people like Albert (if innocent) now lie:

(1) Player's Union
> Supported/Financed by innocents and non-innocents. If you are innocent, then you have backed/financed the policies demanded by the union that allowed an era of PEDs to hit the game we love. One individual can only do so much, but they can also bust the crap wide open if they so desire. However, the union makes them all rich. Priorities, innocence or bad judgement?

(2) Bud and his crew
> Innocent, clueless or full of it. I go with the latter. The 1994 strike hurt MLB. The performance of PED users helped bring the game back in their opinion. And lots of people (players, owners, etc, etc) got rich b/c of it.

I do not blame icehole3 and others who question individuals. Might take a long time for it to stop if the league does not test blood and test for anything that can be a PED. If you played in the "steroid era", then you probably got rich and will be questioned. Blame the player's union and the MLB FO... not the questioners.

Jpup
05-08-2009, 04:34 PM
Controversy has followed Pujols since he was very young. There have been questions about his actual age along with questions about PEDs.

:beerme:

Chip R
05-08-2009, 04:34 PM
So...if he weighs as much as a duck.....he's....made of wood??


We could build a bridge out of him.

durl
05-08-2009, 04:39 PM
I still don't understand how Bud Selig hasn't been banished.

I'm with you, but the owners like him so he's not going anywhere. With the laughable drug policies and the ensuing embarrassment, Selig should have been gone some time ago.



So...if he weighs as much as a duck.....he's....made of wood??

"And therefore..."


But seriously, I'm not going to assume that Pujols took steroids simply because he bulked up over 7-8 years.

Jpup
05-08-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm with you, but the owners like him so he's not going anywhere. With the laughable drug policies and the ensuing embarrassment, Selig should have been gone some time ago.




"And therefore..."


But seriously, I'm not going to assume that Pujols took steroids simply because he bulked up over 7-8 years.

or had facial acne like a 14 year old.

MrCinatit
05-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Albert Pujols turned me into a newt.

Chip R
05-08-2009, 05:03 PM
Albert Pujols turned me into a newt.

A newt?!

paintmered
05-08-2009, 05:07 PM
A newt?!

He got better.

marcshoe
05-08-2009, 05:09 PM
He plays for the Cardinals. Anyone on that team in the last 15 years is suspect.

Anyone?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yG6okqaH09g/SSoH3nnK1TI/AAAAAAAABUw/NMFKsVHnsc0/s320/brantley98ultra.jpg

kpresidente
05-08-2009, 07:06 PM
Some guys actually can carry muscle without steroids, crazy I know.

Yeah, maybe, but if it quacks like a duck...

westofyou
05-08-2009, 07:30 PM
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/frankenstein_villagers488.jpg

GAC
05-08-2009, 07:31 PM
Ooooooo I love a good Witch Hunt

What happens when it's a Red... funny thread then too!!

Can't wait!!

Exactly.

How about HGH Hairtson :p:

nate
05-08-2009, 07:31 PM
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/frankenstein_villagers488.jpg

I think I see Bud Selig!

RFS62
05-08-2009, 07:31 PM
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/frankenstein_villagers488.jpg



Game thread field trip?

Falls City Beer
05-08-2009, 07:48 PM
Chris Duncan is patient zero if there's a true roid investigation. That guy might as well have a syringe hanging out of his buttcheek.

MartyFan
05-08-2009, 09:15 PM
has anyone in the game or on the tv or any other news source ever insinuated that Pujols may be juiced?

I have never heard it and I hold him in the same esteem as I do Junior...who I would never believe would have, has or ever will JUICE.

I get that people are human and do whacky things to succeed...but, I just can't wrap my head around this.

dougdirt
05-08-2009, 09:29 PM
Pujols has been linked to trainer Chris Mihlfeld, who has been linked to multiple HGH/Steroid users in the past. Doesn't mean Pujols did anything, but I can't pretend there isn't something in the back of my mind that says he may have. Still, innocent until something stronger than that comes out.

Chip R
05-08-2009, 11:13 PM
has anyone in the game or on the tv or any other news source ever insinuated that Pujols may be juiced?

I have never heard it and I hold him in the same esteem as I do Junior...who I would never believe would have, has or ever will JUICE.

I get that people are human and do whacky things to succeed...but, I just can't wrap my head around this.


Nobody thought A-Rod juiced. Nobody thought Manny juiced.

While I don't necessarily suspect anyone, I can't be surprised when someone is outed. Even if it were someone like Jr.

WVPacman
05-08-2009, 11:25 PM
I really hope Pujols isn't on roids but I have to admit that I have my doubts with the guy.He just hits that ball to good imo and I will say if he is not cheating then he will be one of the best hitters that I have ever seen.

One question is it me or does George Grande get to excited about Pujols and the Cards?Its every other inning that he is prasing them or talking about Pujols like he is some god or something.In the ninth inning I believe he was dying for Pujols to get a chance to bat.LOL I was watching the post game show and Welch was talking and everytime he said the word Pujols Grande would smile.:rolleyes:

Homer Bailey
05-08-2009, 11:43 PM
Nobody thought A-Rod juiced. Nobody thought Manny juiced.

While I don't necessarily suspect anyone, I can't be surprised when someone is outed. Even if it were someone like Jr.

WHAT???? That is just simply not true. I said this sentence a few years back (not necessarily on this board.)

"I would not waste one moment of suprise on the any of the big sluggers of the game except Griffey. That includes McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, Berkman, Thome, Teixiera, Howard, etc.

How could you think these guys didn't juice? Everyone knows that there was massive juice going on, so how could anyone say "Oh, Manny didn't juice." Griffey was the only one from that period that didn't get exponentially huge, or increase his homers as he aged.

Blitz Dorsey
05-09-2009, 12:07 AM
There is absolutely no question in my mind that Pujols is juicing. The question is whether it will ever be proven. He seems to be at least smarter than Manny (which I know isn't saying much) and knows how to not get busted.

WVPacman
05-09-2009, 12:13 AM
WHAT???? That is just simply not true. I said this sentence a few years back (not necessarily on this board.)

"I would not waste one moment of suprise on the any of the big sluggers of the game except Griffey. That includes McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, Berkman, Thome, Teixiera, Howard, etc.

How could you think these guys didn't juice? Everyone knows that there was massive juice going on, so how could anyone say "Oh, Manny didn't juice." Griffey was the only one from that period that didn't get exponentially huge, or increase his homers as he aged.

I honestly don't see Berkman,using steroids atleast not yet.He is way to chubby and his arms and body look nothing like Pujols,McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod.I could be wrong thow..

Blitz Dorsey
05-09-2009, 12:13 AM
WHAT???? That is just simply not true. I said this sentence a few years back (not necessarily on this board.)

"I would not waste one moment of suprise on the any of the big sluggers of the game except Griffey. That includes McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, Berkman, Thome, Teixiera, Howard, etc.

How could you think these guys didn't juice? Everyone knows that there was massive juice going on, so how could anyone say "Oh, Manny didn't juice." Griffey was the only one from that period that didn't get exponentially huge, or increase his homers as he aged.

Exactly. I don't know how anyone can say "no one thought A-Rod and Manny were juicing." I sure thought both of them were. I agree with every player listed above by Homer Bailey and we could sit here for hours adding even more players that are highly suspected of juicing (Edmonds, Giles, Bret Boone, Carlos Lee, Dan Uggla) and there are a lot more pitchers using than people think. Well, the Clemens situation brought that to light more, but there are a lot of pitchers taking the stuff to try and keep up with the hitters.

I still think there are a bunch of guys doing HGH since there is no way to test for it.

GAC
05-09-2009, 05:38 AM
I really hope Pujols isn't on roids but I have to admit that I have my doubts with the guy.He just hits that ball to good imo and I will say if he is not cheating then he will be one of the best hitters that I have ever seen.

And the latter could be a very, very strong possibility. Why is it somehow inconceivable that the guy works hard, and is simply one of today's best hitters? If simply being a great hitter is a possibly sign of steroid usage, then we have quite an extensive list.... Ichiro? Pedroia? Chipper?

Has it been scientifically proven that usage will make one a better hitter? That it improves something like hand-eye coordination?

And with all the rumors that have flown around about Albert over these last few years, how do we know that MLB hasn't tested him?

As far as I'm concerned, MLB and the player's union are the one's responsible for this questioning and witch-hunt mentality for their refusal and "look the other way" mentality a decade ago when they knew this was going on.

And then you got a guy like Fehr who wants to keep the list secretive. Why? This secretiveness has promoted this attitude of conspiracy among the fans.

RFS62
05-09-2009, 06:55 AM
There is absolutely no question in my mind that Pujols is juicing. The question is whether it will ever be proven. He seems to be at least smarter than Manny (which I know isn't saying much) and knows how to not get busted.


That's like saying you're the smartest Hilton sister.


* I owe royalties to Cincinnati Chili for that line, which I use often.

RedsBaron
05-09-2009, 08:10 AM
Nope. I don't believe Pujols is involved. He's never been named or suspected and until there is something - even smoke involving his name I just give him the benefit. And I hope like heck he is clean because baseball needs "clean" heroes to carry the game away from the 'roid era. Another I don't believe he's involved? Testing is better now, guys have quit and seen their numbers decline and yet Pujols numbers show no decline whatever. If anything he just keeps getting better. There are enough guys with dirt on them. Threads like this serve no purpose except to vilify guys that haven't been named in anything.

There are very few players in the steroids era whom I would be shocked to learn used steroids (Jr., Maddux, Smoltz), so I sure won't claim that I am certain that Pujols has not juiced. I am not aware of any evidence that he has done so, and, as Redleg Jake noted, his numbers have stayed remarkably consistent ever since his rookie year in 2001 at age 21 (at least that was the reported age). He hasn't been a player who somehow had an unusual power surge as he aged.

GAC
05-09-2009, 10:28 AM
There is absolutely no question in my mind that Pujols is juicing.

Based on what though? I've been trying to do some research on my own to see why this perception is so persistent.....

1) He's awful muscular. So? He's an athlete. He is known to have a daily regime where he works out. Being muscular is not a sign of steroids. And aren't there legal supplements, non-steroid, that one can take, in conjunction with such a routine, to get such a physique, which I don't think is anything out of the ordinary when looking at him? I don't know.

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c61ab53ef011279749eb628a4-pi

It's not like he looks like this.....

http://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/photo/1-13.jpg

2) His amazingly unreal stats.

The Babe put up amazingly unreal stats in the prime of his career. Jr was the dominating player of the 90s. Yet if Pujols is likewise in this decade it's obviously because the guy is juicing?

3) The last guy to play 1B for the Cardinals was a juicer, so it's logical to assume......

I've actually read where this has been put forth.

4) Trainer Chris Mihlfeld.

Now this has been presented as the most "damning" evidence that Pujols is juicing.

It all circles around Grimsley, and when he came forward and admitted to federal investigators that hed used amphetamines, steroids and human growth hormone. In the confession, Grimsley identifies a personal fitness trainer, whose name is blacked out in the document, as someone who once referred him to a source for speed.

The blog Deadspin were the ones who claimed it had a source who knew a trainer listed in the report. Deadspin editor Will Leitch claimed he was "80 percent" sure it was Mihlfeld......http://deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

And they also included a pic of Pujols in that blog.

Then the sleaze ball Keith Olbermann runs with the unsubstantiated story, and the resultant shockwaves not only ruined the reputation of Mihlfeld, it also thrust Pujols into the spotlight, forcing him to publicly defend himself time and time again despite not being named or accused by anyone.

But was it Mihlfeld? Because it appears his name has been cleared.

That same year, the Los Angeles Times reported that a nonredacted version of the Grimsley affidavit did not contain Chris Mihlfeld's name, but did list former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee.

And Deadspin has since published a correction titled "A Deeply Regrettable Wrong" that apologized to Mihlfeld and admitted that the Web site was "wrong" to publish the claims. But yet Leitch tells the Pitch that his claim was justified because he did not say that his theory was conclusive.

http://www.pitch.com/2006-10-12/news/mihlfeld-s-clean/

No, but you have impugned two guy's reputations, and brought upon them unnecessary accusations and grief.


The question is whether it will ever be proven. He seems to be at least smarter than Manny (which I know isn't saying much) and knows how to not get busted.

How does one "know how to not get busted" when the evidence is there in your internal system? Even one's level of intelligence can't give them any edge in that sense. It may though prevent them from using them to begin with. ;)

cincrazy
05-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Based on what though? I've been trying to do some research on my own to see why this perception is so persistent.....

1) He's awful muscular. So? He's an athlete. He is known to have a daily regime where he works out. Being muscular is not a sign of steroids. And aren't there legal supplements, non-steroid, that one can take, in conjunction with such a routine, to get such a physique, which I don't think is anything out of the ordinary when looking at him? I don't know.

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c61ab53ef011279749eb628a4-pi

It's not like he looks like this.....

http://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/photo/1-13.jpg

2) His amazingly unreal stats.

The Babe put up amazingly unreal stats in the prime of his career. Jr was the dominating player of the 90s. Yet if Pujols is likewise in this decade it's obviously because the guy is juicing?

3) The last guy to play 1B for the Cardinals was a juicer, so it's logical to assume......

I've actually read where this has been put forth.

4) Trainer Chris Mihlfeld.

Now this has been presented as the most "damning" evidence that Pujols is juicing.

It all circles around Grimsley, and when he came forward and admitted to federal investigators that hed used amphetamines, steroids and human growth hormone. In the confession, Grimsley identifies a personal fitness trainer, whose name is blacked out in the document, as someone who once referred him to a source for speed.

The blog Deadspin were the ones who claimed it had a source who knew a trainer listed in the report. Deadspin editor Will Leitch claimed he was "80 percent" sure it was Mihlfeld......http://deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

And they also included a pic of Pujols in that blog.

Then the sleaze ball Keith Olbermann runs with the unsubstantiated story, and the resultant shockwaves not only ruined the reputation of Mihlfeld, it also thrust Pujols into the spotlight, forcing him to publicly defend himself time and time again despite not being named or accused by anyone.

But was it Mihlfeld? Because it appears his name has been cleared.

That same year, the Los Angeles Times reported that a nonredacted version of the Grimsley affidavit did not contain Chris Mihlfeld's name, but did list former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee.

And Deadspin has since published a correction titled "A Deeply Regrettable Wrong" that apologized to Mihlfeld and admitted that the Web site was "wrong" to publish the claims. But yet Leitch tells the Pitch that his claim was justified because he did not say that his theory was conclusive.

http://www.pitch.com/2006-10-12/news/mihlfeld-s-clean/

No, but you have impugned two guy's reputations, and brought upon them unnecessary accusations and grief.



How does one "know how to not get busted" when the evidence is there in your internal system? Even one's level of intelligence can't give them any edge in that sense. It may though prevent them from using them to begin with. ;)

It's unfair to Pujols that we're even having this conversation, but he can blame the MLBPA for that. He fits the profile of a juicer. Unreal stats, massive head, massive muscles, flips a ball to right center with almost no effort. I hope that he's not on steroid. But if I had to take a guess, I'd say yes.

marcshoe
05-09-2009, 08:48 PM
I hadn't kept up with this enough to know that Mihlfeld had been cleared. That makes a difference in my perception of the situation. Thanks.

It does seem we're deep into witch hunt territory.

wolfboy
05-09-2009, 08:58 PM
Has it been scientifically proven that usage will make one a better hitter? That it improves something like hand-eye coordination?

It really makes it hard to respect what you're saying when I read this. I cringe every time I see this argument.

RedlegJake
05-09-2009, 10:18 PM
It really makes it hard to respect what you're saying when I read this. I cringe every time I see this argument.

Why? He's right in a way. Steroids doesn't make you a better hitter in the sense of making contact or hand-eye coordination. It makes you stronger, you don't tire over the course of a long a season and recover quicker game to game but you can't take steriods, step into a batting cage and whoompf - you're hitting fastballs you couldn't hit before.

Being a great hitter in itself is no indictment that a player uses. That's all GAC was saying. And Pujols is far from the Sosa type or even Bonds, whippet like builds that suddenly bulked out.

guttle11
05-09-2009, 10:39 PM
Why? He's right in a way. Steroids doesn't make you a better hitter in the sense of making contact or hand-eye coordination. It makes you stronger, you don't tire over the course of a long a season and recover quicker game to game but you can't take steriods, step into a batting cage and whoompf - you're hitting fastballs you couldn't hit before.

Being a great hitter in itself is no indictment that a player uses. That's all GAC was saying. And Pujols is far from the Sosa type or even Bonds, whippet like builds that suddenly bulked out.


Yep. Tony Gwinn was a great hitter. Give him PEDs and maybe he's Pujols. Isn't any better at "see ball, hit ball", but much better at "see ball, hit ball far".

I don't know whether I think Pujols ever gassed or not, don't really care about that anymore to be honest. I just know that using PEDs help make you stronger and quicker.

TheNext44
05-09-2009, 11:04 PM
PED's give you greater bat speed, which allows you to wait longer before deciding to swing on each pitch. That is a huge advantage, since that is the hardest part of hitting in the majors, knowing what to swing at. Even if you are getting a 1/10 of a second advantage, that could lead to a huge jump in your numbers, and not just power.

Dom Heffner
05-09-2009, 11:27 PM
If steroids didn't work, they wouldn't take them.

And GAC- No major leaguer has ever looked like the dude in your picture.

Even Barry Bonds doesn't look like the muscle man in your picture, and in fact, Pujols looks more muscular than Bonds.

There goes your point.

Unassisted
05-09-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm with you, but the owners like him so he's not going anywhere. With the laughable drug policies and the ensuing embarrassment, Selig should have been gone some time ago.
The owners have over 6 billion reasons a year to like Bud. The sport brings in more dollars annually than there are people on the planet.

Cedric
05-09-2009, 11:58 PM
The body change that Pujols went through is absurd. Was it legit? I guess it's possible he's part of that .0001% of society that can morph without illegal drugs.

I'm more inclined to believe he's cheating like Manny and all the others. If the player has Dominican ties he doesn't get any benefit of the doubt from me.

wolfboy
05-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Why? He's right in a way. Steroids doesn't make you a better hitter in the sense of making contact or hand-eye coordination. It makes you stronger, you don't tire over the course of a long a season and recover quicker game to game but you can't take steriods, step into a batting cage and whoompf - you're hitting fastballs you couldn't hit before.

Being a great hitter in itself is no indictment that a player uses. That's all GAC was saying. And Pujols is far from the Sosa type or even Bonds, whippet like builds that suddenly bulked out.

I don't want to try to speak for GAC here, but I disagree with your interpretation. This isn't about whether it gives you the ability to hit a ball. No one on this side of the argument has ever claimed that.

Can you or I begin a cycle and suddenly become Pujols? No. Not a chance. However, can a young Barry Bonds (probably a HOF player if the body holds up) suddenly become Maris, Ruth, Aaron, and Williams all combined into one? It sure seems like it to me.

Keep on telling that's impossible because I don't have the scientific grounds to prove it, but it won't sway my mind a bit. There was a time when I was younger that 50 home runs in a season seemed like a once in a lifetime feat to witness. Then, after a few seasons in the 90s, it became as common as a spring thunderstorm. Then, two guys pass Maris. Then one guy passes them all. And you still want to argue that steroids are no big deal? It's your right to say it over and over, but I don't have to take it seriously for even a second.

WebScorpion
05-10-2009, 02:14 AM
PED's give you greater bat speed, which allows you to wait longer before deciding to swing on each pitch. That is a huge advantage, since that is the hardest part of hitting in the majors, knowing what to swing at. Even if you are getting a 1/10 of a second advantage, that could lead to a huge jump in your numbers, and not just power.
They also make you more aggressive, so your natural tendency to want to bail out on a 90mph+ fastball is curbed. Your ability to recover after minor injuries is enhanced, so you're not bothered by all the little injuries experienced over playing 162 games and you recover from major injuries quicker. Couple that with increased bat speed, more power and you get Barry Bonds ver 2.0. The only player I've ever seen hit anything like Bonds is Albert Pujols...hmmm...

IMO he's a suspect. Just because other people want to put him in the Ken Griffey, Jr. category doesn't sway me.

Razor Shines
05-10-2009, 03:11 AM
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/shooting-fish-in-a-barrel.jpeg
I get what you're trying to say with this: Shooting fish in barrel: Easy. Shooting fish in a large crate: Extremely difficult. Therefore Pujols is guilty.

icehole3
05-10-2009, 06:40 AM
pictorial representation doesnt really bother me, I guess if I wanted to play along I could throw this out there

http://wtcampaigns.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/head-in-the-sand.jpg

Blitz Dorsey
05-10-2009, 11:36 AM
Based on what though? I've been trying to do some research on my own to see why this perception is so persistent.....

1) He's awful muscular. So? He's an athlete. He is known to have a daily regime where he works out. Being muscular is not a sign of steroids. And aren't there legal supplements, non-steroid, that one can take, in conjunction with such a routine, to get such a physique, which I don't think is anything out of the ordinary when looking at him? I don't know.

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c61ab53ef011279749eb628a4-pi

It's not like he looks like this.....

http://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/photo/1-13.jpg

2) His amazingly unreal stats.

The Babe put up amazingly unreal stats in the prime of his career. Jr was the dominating player of the 90s. Yet if Pujols is likewise in this decade it's obviously because the guy is juicing?

3) The last guy to play 1B for the Cardinals was a juicer, so it's logical to assume......

I've actually read where this has been put forth.

4) Trainer Chris Mihlfeld.

Now this has been presented as the most "damning" evidence that Pujols is juicing.

It all circles around Grimsley, and when he came forward and admitted to federal investigators that he’d used amphetamines, steroids and human growth hormone. In the confession, Grimsley identifies a personal fitness trainer, whose name is blacked out in the document, as someone who once referred him to a source for speed.

The blog Deadspin were the ones who claimed it had a source who knew a trainer listed in the report. Deadspin editor Will Leitch claimed he was "80 percent" sure it was Mihlfeld......http://deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

And they also included a pic of Pujols in that blog.

Then the sleaze ball Keith Olbermann runs with the unsubstantiated story, and the resultant shockwaves not only ruined the reputation of Mihlfeld, it also thrust Pujols into the spotlight, forcing him to publicly defend himself time and time again despite not being named or accused by anyone.

But was it Mihlfeld? Because it appears his name has been cleared.

That same year, the Los Angeles Times reported that a nonredacted version of the Grimsley affidavit did not contain Chris Mihlfeld's name, but did list former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee.

And Deadspin has since published a correction titled "A Deeply Regrettable Wrong" that apologized to Mihlfeld and admitted that the Web site was "wrong" to publish the claims. But yet Leitch tells the Pitch that his claim was justified because he did not say that his theory was conclusive.

http://www.pitch.com/2006-10-12/news/mihlfeld-s-clean/

No, but you have impugned two guy's reputations, and brought upon them unnecessary accusations and grief.



How does one "know how to not get busted" when the evidence is there in your internal system? Even one's level of intelligence can't give them any edge in that sense. It may though prevent them from using them to begin with. ;)

Based on the fact that he went from a JUCO player drafted in the 13th round (with a normal sized head) to the best player in baseball with a head the size of my house. And that is just one of many reasons he looks like an obvious user to me. Everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to them. And until Pujols is proven to be dirty, that's all they will be, opinions. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind he is juicing. There are so many reasons I could point to, but it's pointless to list them all. Some people will agree on this issue, some will disagree and some aren't sure.

I just hope no one is "surprised" when it comes out that Pujols is dirty as they come. Heck, he can just go down to the HGH lab that Tony LaRussa has in the basement of his house. (I keed, I keed.)

Blitz Dorsey
05-10-2009, 11:44 AM
And GAC, you're not serious when you ask, "How does one know how to not get busted?" are you?

Masking agents are extremely prevalent in sports. Lance Armstrong could tell you a lot more about this topic. (Yeah, I just went there.) But seriously, you think everyone who passes a test is clean? Sorry, that's not close to realistic. There is a huge underground industry of chemists/scientists coming up with masking agents so athletes can pass drug tests. Barry Bonds did this for years. Marion Jones. They eventually got caught though. The point is that certain guys are smart enough to use, but not get caught. Pujols is in that category right now IMO. And with HGH being untestable at the current time, there is nothing stopping these guys from loading up on the stuff. Pretty soon Pujols is going to have to get a permit for his head though. That thing just keeps getting bigger -- he can barely fit his batting helmet on it. Check it out next time he's up. Compare it to the head size of his rookie card (or his minor league baseball card).

cincinnati chili
05-11-2009, 02:45 AM
That's like saying you're the smartest Hilton sister.


* I owe royalties to Cincinnati Chili for that line, which I use often.

I definitely didn't come up with it, but thanks. Bad artists imitate. Great artists steal. I stole it, and from who I have no idea.

I've heard rumors about Manny and steroids a few years, including from people who work in baseball and in the media. I didn't necessarily believe the rumors, because he's not everyone's favorite kind of player, and seemed like a logical target for a vicious attack. Despite the rumors, I was still surprised to learn of the positive test. I figure that someone juicing a few years ago would have either been wise enough to stop by now or had switched to some crazy designer performance-enhancer that the tests can't detect.

For the record, I don't like the witch hunt stuff either. Some of the guys who are victimized by the steroid rumors weren't even in the union when the union did all the enabling things that led to this. So to me a guy like Laynce Nix (I saw him in the Southern league all-star game in 2002 - he was a B+ prospect at the time and was Glen Braggs ripped...) and even Albert Pujols is innocent until proven guilty.

Of all the crazy conspiracy theories out there, the one that's most palatable to me is the Albert Pujols oblique injury a few years back. Remember, the one where he popped an oblique catching a foul ball? This injury was supposed to take 2-3 months to recover, but he was back on all cylinders in about a month.

I know it's a reach, but it wouldn't totally shock me to find out some day that MLB worked out a silent suspension with him, in which both he and the game were spared embarrassment in exchange for him taking himself out of play for a little while (a redux of the Michael Jordan compulsive gambling tacit suspension).

TheNext44
05-11-2009, 04:37 AM
I definitely didn't come up with it, but thanks. Bad artists imitate. Great artists steal. I stole it, and from who I have no idea.

I've heard rumors about Manny and steroids a few years, including from people who work in baseball and in the media. I didn't necessarily believe the rumors, because he's not everyone's favorite kind of player, and seemed like a logical target for a vicious attack. Despite the rumors, I was still surprised to learn of the positive test. I figure that someone juicing a few years ago would have either been wise enough to stop by now or had switched to some crazy designer performance-enhancer that the tests can't detect.

For the record, I don't like the witch hunt stuff either. Some of the guys who are victimized by the steroid rumors weren't even in the union when the union did all the enabling things that led to this. So to me a guy like Laynce Nix (I saw him in the Southern league all-star game in 2002 - he was a B+ prospect at the time and was Glen Braggs ripped...) and even Albert Pujols is innocent until proven guilty.

Of all the crazy conspiracy theories out there, the one that's most palatable to me is the Albert Pujols oblique injury a few years back. Remember, the one where he popped an oblique catching a foul ball? This injury was supposed to take 2-3 months to recover, but he was back on all cylinders in about a month.

I know it's a reach, but it wouldn't totally shock me to find out some day that MLB worked out a silent suspension with him, in which both he and the game were spared embarrassment in exchange for him taking himself out of play for a little while (a redux of the Michael Jordan compulsive gambling tacit suspension).

Mmmmmm, kinda like A-Rod's injury that was supposed to take 3 months to heal and took around a month? Or Bonds injury right when testing started? Nothing conclusive, but definitely something to think about, especially since MLB has a history of these "silent suspensions."

GAC
05-11-2009, 08:15 PM
If steroids didn't work, they wouldn't take them.

And no where did I say, or try to allude, that steroids don't work. Of course they work. What I am saying is that they aren't going to work for everyone. One must first possess the natural talent/ability.

Steroids promote muscle growth. It's why they have always been popularly abused by weightlifters, bodybuilders, long-distance runners, and cyclists. It helps athletes get bigger and stronger. That's about it. And for guys who were already home run hitters (Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Canseco), it helped them hit mammoth shots.

I don't see where steroids would make a player like a Juan Castro a better ballplayer, who didn't really possess the "facilities" to begin with.


And GAC- No major leaguer has ever looked like the dude in your picture.

It was posted as exaggerated humor Dom. Sorry you, and others, may have missed that.


There goes your point.

My point was in exposing the very circumstantial and misleading evidence that has been presented against Pujols. And it appears a lot of it (not all) is coming from fans who simply don't like the guy.

The crux of this whole witch hunt on Pujols has been centered around mis-facts and mis-truths about trainer Chris Mihlfeld whose name was wrongly implicated by a blog. Various elements in the media then ran with this unsubstantiated report. That blog later came back and posted an apology and retraction; but the damage done and innuendos are now already out there.

So what have you got to prove that Albert is juicing?

He's got a big head! That makes some people on this forum suspect then! :D

Consistently outstanding stats? Could be a sign; but certainly not a sure one.

I like this essay by Robert Nishihara "Might Doesn't Matter"....

http://www.thediamondangle.com/archive/june02/steroids.html

However, there seems to be something missing in this public debate on the issue of steroid use in baseball. The one question not being asked, and, frankly, the one that would appear to be at the heart of the issue is this: How exactly does taking anabolic steroids help a major league player hit a home run that he ordinarily would not be able to hit?

No less a source than Ted Williams, considered by many the greatest pure hitter of all time, cites three key elements to hitting a baseball effectively in his book, "The Science of Hitting". A good hitter must identify a pitch to hit, know enough about the pitcher and the game situation to give himself the best chance to succeed, and put hands and hips into motion to drive the pitch. Nowhere does Williams mention that muscle mass aides in any of those critical elements. Williams, himself, of course, was rail-thin, and yet, he managed to crank out 521 career homers.

Barry Bonds, he of the all-time single season home run record and now being unfairly scrutinized for that landmark achievement, has publicly echoed Williams' sentiments. He has said in many press conferences since the Canseco story first broke that hitting a baseball is primarily a function of hand-eye coordination. When you watch Bonds hit, the first thing you notice is the quickness of his hands.

Sure, added muscle mass may increase the distance a player is able to hit a baseball, but what negative effect does that added mass have in altering the fluidity of the player's swing and, thus, his ability to hit the ball in the first place? A popular baseball refrain cautions fast players who have deficiencies in the batter's box that one cannot steal first base. Similarly, a power hitter cannot hit a home run if he cannot hit the ball. And hitting a baseball is a unique skill in the world of sports. It is a powerful act that does not require extraordinary muscle strength. Instead, it is primarily dependent on technique, reflexes, and hand-eye coordination, not brute strength. It is a correlation that so many people are failing to make these days.

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe the last player to hit .400 in the majors and the single season home run record holder when they talk about what is required to hit a baseball effectively. The fact that most sports media people seem unable or unwilling to do the same is troubling. Further, the very idea that they can dismiss observations from the likes of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds in favor of publicity-laced gossip from Jose Canseco and double-backed statements from a troubled guy like Ken Caminiti says more about the current state of sports reporting than I care to know.

I don't doubt that some major league players are taking steroids, but I do doubt the perceived pervasiveness and the relative value of such usage. Without question, I believe that steroid use is wrong and dangerous. However, the primary focus of this issue by the media has been to emphasize what effect steroid use has on the statistical results of the game, and the idea that the major leagues are rampant with superhuman players who can master the game's most difficult tasks with ease. The media would be better served emphasizing the inherent health risks taken by players who use steroids for what would seem to be marginal performance advantages.

This connection between extraordinary muscle strength and home run hitting ability seems a fallacy to me, and I am disheartened that so much of the sports world seems to take it as gospel. If, in fact, excessive bulk were the key factor to driving pitches out of the ballpark, I would have thought that it would have been Frank Thomas (who, indeed, is built like a linebacker) who would reign as home run king. Similarly, Bo Jackson should have been a Hall of Famer given his incredible muscularity. And how would the home run hitting exploits of Luis Gonzalez be explained? Gonzalez, who is built more like a safety pin than a strong safety, cranked out 57 homers in 2001. And what of Hank Aaron, the man who sits atop the all-time homer list with a mark that only a handful of active players have even an outside chance of catching? During his playing days, Aaron stood six feet tall and weighed 180 pounds, hardly a gargantuan individual.

The sooner all of this talk about tying steroids to home runs fades the better. Major league baseball has much more serious problems afoot. Focusing the media spotlight on some of those issues would be a much more constructive exercise than the one currently being played out.

That way, we could all put the image of Jose Canseco as sage away, and let the man do his shameless pandering for his yet unwritten book in anonymity. And we can get back to the critical business at hand in baseball: figuring out a way to expel Bud Selig from the Commissioner's office before he damages the game of baseball any more than he already has.

GAC
05-11-2009, 08:53 PM
Barry Bonds did this for years. They eventually got caught though.

Yes, he did it for years. And when he, and others, were doing it, they weren't being caught because they were masking it. They were caught because either someone blew the whistle on them, or test results gave the evidence.

They were getting away with it for years because MLB and the players union refused to initiate a sound testing policy, and yes, they haven't developed sound testing to catch certain types of steroids. The "system" is/was certainly behind the times, and needs to play catchup in that aspect.

Marion Jones got caught when tested.


Pretty soon Pujols is going to have to get a permit for his head though. That thing just keeps getting bigger -- he can barely fit his batting helmet on it. Check it out next time he's up. Compare it to the head size of his rookie card (or his minor league baseball card).

Kinda of an extreme exaggeration IMO. I don't see a great disparity there, and I've looked at his rookie card and recent pics. Most player's minor league and rookie cards look quite different physically because of their youth.

Still not sound evidence IMO.

wolfboy
05-11-2009, 11:02 PM
GAC, essays by Robert Nishihara aside, can you tell me that Brady Anderson is a 50 home run hitter with a straight face?

westofyou
05-11-2009, 11:37 PM
GAC, essays by Robert Nishihara aside, can you tell me that Brady Anderson is a 50 home run hitter with a straight face?

Cy Williams hit 41 once

flyer85
05-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Marion Jones got caught when tested.
she never failed a test ... she got caught up in perjury in the BALCO case and a check fraud investigation

wolfboy
05-12-2009, 12:12 AM
Cy Williams hit 41 once

Well, Cy Williams also hit 30, 26, 24 and 18 peppered across a career. The 41 was improbable, but not impossible. How many times did Brady Anderson hit even half of those 50 home runs in a season? Never.

Still feel good about the Cy Williams comparison? Well, how many times did Cy Williams finish in the top 10 in HR during his 19 year career? 12. How many times did Brady Anderson? 1.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

westofyou
05-12-2009, 12:31 AM
Well, Cy Williams also hit 30, 26, 24 and 18 peppered across a career. The 41 was improbable, but not impossible. How many times did Brady Anderson hit even half of those 50 home runs in a season? Never.

Still feel good about the Cy Williams comparison? Well, how many times did Cy Williams finish in the top 10 in HR during his 19 year career? 12. How many times did Brady Anderson? 1.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

It's a stretch.

For his career Brady had 6500 ab's and 210 Hr's to the leagues 195

Cy Williams had 6800 ab's and had 251 HR's to the leagues 64

Nevertheless he also had the Baker Bowl and was an extreme pull hitter, but an outlier nonetheless.

Anderson's out of the game, I have no idea what he did.

But I know he was an anomaly, I'm just uncertain of what kind, especially considering guys like Hairiston take steroids an don't hit 50 Hr's in a season.

wolfboy
05-12-2009, 12:39 AM
It's a stretch.

For his career Brady had 6500 ab's and 210 Hr's to the leagues 195

Cy Williams had 6800 ab's and had 251 HR's to the leagues 64

Nevertheless he also had the Baker Bowl and was an extreme pull hitter, but an outlier nonetheless.

Anderson's out of the game, I have no idea what he did.

But I know he was an anomaly, I'm just uncertain of what kind, especially considering guys like Hairiston take steroids an don't hit 50 Hr's in a season.

I'm not trying to shoot down your example. I know what you're saying...there are outliers. This game is full of strange results. Let's just say that an outlier like Anderson looks much more suspect when he's the snowball that precedes an avalanche. When you talk about Cy Williams, that wasn't the case.

VR
05-12-2009, 12:56 AM
Frankly, I'm inclined to believe the last player to hit .400 in the majors and the single season home run record holder when they talk about what is required to hit a baseball effectively. The fact that most sports media people seem unable or unwilling to do the same is troubling. Further, the very idea that they can dismiss observations from the likes of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds in favor of publicity-laced gossip from Jose Canseco and double-backed statements from a troubled guy like Ken Caminiti says more about the current state of sports reporting than I care to know.



I appreciate Ted's comments....but the facts of physics state there is a bit more to it.
When two players have the same great technique that Williams speaks of....the stronger of the two will hit more long balls. It just can not be defensed.

cincinnati chili
05-12-2009, 01:40 AM
Maybe Brady Anderson juiced, maybe not. Don't know. Don't really care. But identify the significance of these numbers:

61 50
39 24
33 21
28 19
26 18


On the left are Roger Maris' top 5 home run seasons. On the right are Brady Anderson's.

I don't hear many people accusing Maris of juicing, but there's a striking similarity here.

RedsBaron
05-12-2009, 07:44 AM
Maybe Brady Anderson juiced, maybe not. Don't know. Don't really care. But identify the significance of these numbers:

61 50
39 24
33 21
28 19
26 18


On the left are Roger Maris' top 5 home run seasons. On the right are Brady Anderson's.

I don't hear many people accusing Maris of juicing, but there's a striking similarity here.

56
39
31
30
23
Those are Hack Wilson's top 5 home run seasons.
Of course, there is no doubt: Hack Wilson was "juicing." His "juice" of choice was alcohol.
P.S.
It should be noted that Maris consumed a lot of cigarettes during his pursuit of Ruth in '61.

GAC
05-12-2009, 05:47 PM
GAC, essays by Robert Nishihara aside, can you tell me that Brady Anderson is a 50 home run hitter with a straight face?

No I can't. I really don't see what this has anything to do with Pujols either.

I have never staked out the position that steroids are not utilized, players haven't/aren't using, nor that it hasn't hurt the game of baseball. Only that I don't see sound evidence that Albert is using.

Again - how do we not know that he hasn't been tested? I'm not that keen on the MLB policy, but isn't the testing kept private, as per agreement with the player's union, and the only way it is made public is when a person obviously fails a test and is suspended?

One can't say that Pujols is being "protected" because of his name and stature, because we've just seen two of the biggest names in baseball get exposed.

And if it came out tomorrow that Albert is using it's not like my jaw would drop to the ground in utter disbelief.

wolfboy
05-12-2009, 08:05 PM
Maybe Brady Anderson juiced, maybe not. Don't know. Don't really care. But identify the significance of these numbers:

61 50
39 24
33 21
28 19
26 18


On the left are Roger Maris' top 5 home run seasons. On the right are Brady Anderson's.

I don't hear many people accusing Maris of juicing, but there's a striking similarity here.

I guess no one accuses Maris of juicing because he's not really relevant to the argument here. George Foster's season of 52 looks equally out of place with the rest of his career. Just because there's been smoke in the past doesn't mean there's no fire today. Like I said, Anderson looks like any other outlier until you place him in context.

Of course, I still feel like the Maris comparison is a weak one. I will agree that truly exceptional and inexplicable seasons do happen, but they don't stretch too far beyond the believable. Both Foster and Maris were power hitters outside of their exceptional seasons. Each hit 39 and 40, respectively, in different seasons. Brady Anderson was never a true power hitter. As I pointed out before, he never hit even half of his 50 in any other season.

GAC
05-12-2009, 08:20 PM
It's interesting that this conversation about steroids is primarily focused on Hrs. I don't think any of us would deny the fact that since steroids builds muscle mass, makes one stronger, it would help one to hit more Hrs.

One person who quickly comes to mind is Brett Boone. His 2001 thru 2003 seasons were quite out of the ordinary for him. Especially in the RBI category.

But does steroids improve those mental facilities, needed in conjunction with the physical, to hit the ball?

RedFanAlways1966
05-12-2009, 11:08 PM
But does steroids improve those mental facilities, needed in conjunction with the physical, to hit the ball?

-Healing is a lot faster.
-Swings are going to be a lot stronger IF training is increased.
-Higher amounts of testesterone generally leads to stronger coordination and focus, and general better sense of well being. (hence be able to hit more home runs)

You make the show by having the mental facilities to hit the ball. If you don't have it, then no show (usually... Juan Castro, etc). The PEDs push that ability to a different level with the physical side and healing. This is the reason that many athletes (in many sports) have risked their reputation by doing them (a very important point that PEDs do something!). The freakish numbers in the steroid era in MLB prove it. Sure some other factors may have helped (thin pitching, smaller parks), but people who refuse to acknowledge the PEDs and the numbers of that era are in denial. I will mention the above points, but will not argue with those who are in denial. If the obvious (physical size, the gaudy numbers, the number of people caught, the drug testing for it that all of sudden is mandatory, etc, etc) is not enough to convince them, then I sure as hell will not waste my time trying to do it.

Cedric
05-13-2009, 04:54 PM
-Healing is a lot faster.
-Swings are going to be a lot stronger IF training is increased.
-Higher amounts of testesterone generally leads to stronger coordination and focus, and general better sense of well being. (hence be able to hit more home runs)

You make the show by having the mental facilities to hit the ball. If you don't have it, then no show (usually... Juan Castro, etc). The PEDs push that ability to a different level with the physical side and healing. This is the reason that many athletes (in many sports) have risked their reputation by doing them (a very important point that PEDs do something!). The freakish numbers in the steroid era in MLB prove it. Sure some other factors may have helped (thin pitching, smaller parks), but people who refuse to acknowledge the PEDs and the numbers of that era are in denial. I will mention the above points, but will not argue with those who are in denial. If the obvious (physical size, the gaudy numbers, the number of people caught, the drug testing for it that all of sudden is mandatory, etc, etc) is not enough to convince them, then I sure as hell will not waste my time trying to do it.

Confidence is paramount in baseball. Guys like Bonds and Manny probably were helped by juicing. But really the key to hitting is timing and I believe that PED's help a player by allowing him that extra split second to drive a pitch. My two cents.

RANDY IN INDY
05-13-2009, 05:52 PM
that extra split second to drive a pitch................is huge.

westofyou
05-13-2009, 05:53 PM
Confidence is paramount in baseball. Guys like Bonds and Manny probably were helped by juicing

Then cocaine and greenies must have been even more morale building... let's ask Willie, Hank and Pops.

GAC
05-13-2009, 08:18 PM
-Healing is a lot faster.

A couple years ago, when we had a similar discussion, this was talked about. It's no doubt that steroids increase the healing rate. My sister has an autoimmune disorder where she has every allergy under the sun, and has a very hard time fighting off infections. And when needed, she has been put on steroids to help her fight off infection and vastly improve healing. And it does greatly aid her (work).

And that was the reasoning as to why Ankiel was prescribed them.

There are beneficial purposes to steroids. It's just that the negatives outweigh the positives.

When my sister was on them she puffed up like a balloon.

But I wonder if MLB should take a deeper look into this to aid athletes who are injured? Could a viable program be implemented that strictly monitor this?