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View Full Version : What if Dunn and Griffey were out and we won 2



kfm
05-08-2009, 10:51 PM
I really like this team. One of the things I am enjoying is that there seems to be a lack of consensus on the player Reds' fans love to hate. I was just thinking what would things sound like on the radio and on Redszone if the reds who were struggling to score runs suddenly started to score and win at home while Dunn and Griffey were hurt. I like Votto and Phillips, but if this were Dunn and Griffey we all know that talk radio would be a buzz with how two games is proof positive that they are the reason that we are losing, as opposed to something like horrible pitching. Just wondering if any of you think things would be much different if it were Dunn and Griffey or if people just really disliked Phillips and Votto.

Ghosts of 1990
05-08-2009, 10:57 PM
Phillips needs to watch it though, or he could replace Dunn and Griffey. I see your point. The hatred of Dunn was unecessary. I don't care what anyone says, they're wrong about Dunn unless they agree that he was a big time commodity. The guy is on his way to a career year in Washington, and he's going to be a Hall of Famer. Was he perfect, no. But the people who 'hated' Dunn simply didn't recognize his strengths and pointed the finger at him because he was the only one left through the long years of losing. He was a bright spot on HORRIBLE HORRIBLE teams, he outlasted several GM's, players, roster after roster, managers, and ownership. He was the only one remaining so people automatically and unfairly blamed him. He was a stud offensively.

Roush's socks
05-09-2009, 12:59 AM
The Reds weren't terrible all those years because of Dunn. But you could argue that they WERE bad because of Griffey. His Giganto-enormous contract ate up a lot of space, and he never produced on the scale he was being paid. That type of situation will kill any franchise. Dunn was always paid on a scale of what he produced, and for many years was a great value.

bgwilly31
05-09-2009, 10:07 AM
Well were still above .500 before we came into these last two games. So its not like we were playing bad without them.


Votto doesnt fit your point at all.

BP i guess is debatable, but he has been hot his last few games. So i dont think it fits either.

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 10:15 AM
There are intangibles that go beyond the statistics.

Enthusiasm, desire, energy, chemistry, etc..........can all play a role in winning games.

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 10:21 AM
The fact that Dunn ended up with the Nationals speaks volumes about what baseball GM's across the board think of Dunn's skills.

jimbo
05-09-2009, 11:24 AM
The fact that Dunn ended up with the Nationals speaks volumes about what baseball GM's across the board think of Dunn's skills.

:rolleyes: He's in the top 10 in the NL in HRs, RBIs, OBP, and OPS. I'd love to have those numbers coming from the Reds left field position.

Fon Duc Tow
05-09-2009, 01:08 PM
The fact that Dunn ended up with the Nationals speaks volumes about what baseball GM's across the board think of Dunn's skills.

Compared to who, Dickerson? :D

Griffey012
05-09-2009, 01:32 PM
The fact that Dunn ended up with the Nationals speaks volumes about what baseball GM's across the board think of Dunn's skills.

These same GM's sign Carlos Silva for 12 million a year, give Zito a boatload, Mike Hampton, etc. You can't really blame someone skills on where they sign as a free agent and for how much money. He is what he is, I'd rather pay for that then pay for what someone might be able to do if they are healthy and not suspended, ALA Milton Bradley and the cubs, I still think that was a poor signing for the same type of money.

kfm
05-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Well were still above .500 before we came into these last two games. So its not like we were playing bad without them.


Votto doesnt fit your point at all.

BP i guess is debatable, but he has been hot his last few games. So i dont think it fits either.

They all fit my point. My point is this. When fans turn on a player logic goes out the window. Production doesn't matter, stats don't matter, just fans seeing what they want. If there are fans who hate BP and Votto the way they hate Griffey and Dunn nothing matters other than they won two in a row without them. Not bad pitching, not who they played against just they they were gone and we won without them. If you are a blind Griffey or Dunn basher, this point is lost on you.

GOYA
05-09-2009, 04:05 PM
What if Dunn and Griffey went O-fer and we won two?

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 05:18 PM
:rolleyes: He's in the top 10 in the NL in HRs, RBIs, OBP, and OPS. I'd love to have those numbers coming from the Reds left field position.

Gee, where were those numbers when we needed him?

Always easy to hit when there's not pressure on him. He should flourish in Washington.

I'm sure he'll come up with a mysterious injury about August 1st when the Nats are 30 games out, and then he'll hit the golf course.

jimbo
05-09-2009, 09:32 PM
Gee, where were those numbers when we needed him?

They were right there. He finished in the top 10 in HRs, OBP, and OPS last season, while finishing tied for 13th in RBIs. He's been a model of consistency.


Always easy to hit when there's not pressure on him. He should flourish in Washington.

He had no more pressure in Cincinnati than he does in Washington.


I'm sure he'll come up with a mysterious injury about August 1st when the Nats are 30 games out, and then he'll hit the golf course.

What?

ChatterRed
05-10-2009, 02:13 AM
The Reds never did anything with Dunn. They never did anything with Griffey.

Sometimes stats are just filler and other times they mean something. They meant nothing in terms of Dunn. He was and is still overrated. When the chips are down he'll strike out everytime.

jimbo
05-10-2009, 10:41 AM
The Reds never did anything with Dunn. They never did anything with Griffey.

Because they never built a good team around them. Baseball is a TEAM game.


Sometimes stats are just filler and other times they mean something. They meant nothing in terms of Dunn. He was and is still overrated. When the chips are down he'll strike out everytime.

Ridiculous. I'm tempted to go count how many game winning homers he had in Cincinnati, but I doubt it make much difference as you would just make something else up.

sabometrics
05-10-2009, 11:22 AM
Because they never built a good team around them.
Ridiculous. I'm tempted to go count how many game winning homers he had in Cincinnati, but I doubt it make much difference as you would just make something else up.
He's a career .225 hitter with RISP, and an even worse .216 hitter with RISP and 2 outs. You can defend Dunner in any other aspect, but he is most definitely not clutch.

BIGGIN
05-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Well it makes me happy to know we can win games without Phillips and Votto in the lineup. However, I am alot happier with those two guys in the lineup. BP started out slow but he is coming around, him being in that four hole has his swing big and looping. He has shortened up a bit and is now hitting the ball well. And, nobody can knock on Votto, I know that no one is but I just wanted to get that out there.

Anyway, Dunn is playing some pretty good baseball right now, it might not stay that way for the rest of the season but he is doing well. And for Griffey, everyone knows he is pretty much on his way out, he has had some bad luck keeping him out of lineups for the past few years and it has hurt his numbers somewhat. Can't really say much bad about Griff, he has great career numbers and he is one of my favorite all time players. To answer the question, if Dunn and Griffey were out of games and we won 2 then whenever they got healthy they would have been right back in the lineup, thats just how things usually work.

kfm
05-10-2009, 06:45 PM
The Reds never did anything with Dunn. They never did anything with Griffey.

Sometimes stats are just filler and other times they mean something. They meant nothing in terms of Dunn. He was and is still overrated. When the chips are down he'll strike out everytime.

What have the Reds done with Harang, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, Cordero, Freel, Stynes, Casey pick the player. This team has lost with all of them, because their pitching staffs have been complete and total jokes. On the teams that those two guys played on for the time they were here wouldn't Homer, Matt Moloney, Josh Roneicke, Carlos Fisher, Ramon Ramirez just to name a few be on the staff. This teams pitching is so good that they can't get a sniff. Do I need to start naming some of the lousy pitchers we have been forced to watch? The Reds teams have had problems, but how any baseball fan with an ounce of sense cannot look at the Reds over the course of the last 10 years and not come to the conclusion that the major reason for their losing has been lousy pitching is beyond me. Fans like to talk about things being a team game, until they find players they don't like and then their common sense goes out the window and they say forget the team, the reason they are not winning is because of that player or this player, and don't tell me about stats or facts.

Ghosts of 1990
05-11-2009, 12:28 AM
What have the Reds done with Harang, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, Cordero, Freel, Stynes, Casey pick the player. This team has lost with all of them, because their pitching staffs have been complete and total jokes. On the teams that those two guys played on for the time they were here wouldn't Homer, Matt Moloney, Josh Roneicke, Carlos Fisher, Ramon Ramirez just to name a few be on the staff. This teams pitching is so good that they can't get a sniff. Do I need to start naming some of the lousy pitchers we have been forced to watch? The Reds teams have had problems, but how any baseball fan with an ounce of sense cannot look at the Reds over the course of the last 10 years and not come to the conclusion that the major reason for their losing has been lousy pitching is beyond me. Fans like to talk about things being a team game, until they find players they don't like and then their common sense goes out the window and they say forget the team, the reason they are not winning is because of that player or this player, and don't tell me about stats or facts.



Above is one of the finest posts I've read on here in a long time. Excellent points.

ian_madden
05-11-2009, 12:39 AM
I'm happy the big dumb animal that is Dunn is gone. He brought a culture that was detrimental to the team. Lets swing for the fences, and nothing else. How many sac flies did he have for this team? look it up not many. He didn't do the small things. Numbers are numbers. His will not be written in the HOF any time soon because his big body will give out. But we can say one good thing about both Griffey and Dunn, they did not juice.

By the way Griffey was great and i love him. I cherished every moment at the ball park that I got to watch the greatest baseball player of all time, even at the end of his career. We did him right by moving him to a contender. Dunn could have gone to the Oakland Raiders for all I cared.

bounty37h
05-11-2009, 11:23 AM
Phillips needs to watch it though, or he could replace Dunn and Griffey. I see your point. The hatred of Dunn was unecessary. I don't care what anyone says, they're wrong about Dunn unless they agree that he was a big time commodity. The guy is on his way to a career year in Washington, and he's going to be a Hall of Famer. Was he perfect, no. But the people who 'hated' Dunn simply didn't recognize his strengths and pointed the finger at him because he was the only one left through the long years of losing. He was a bright spot on HORRIBLE HORRIBLE teams, he outlasted several GM's, players, roster after roster, managers, and ownership. He was the only one remaining so people automatically and unfairly blamed him. He was a stud offensively.

That raises a good trivia queston, has there ever been a HOF'er that never even made an All Star team?

BigJohn
05-11-2009, 11:54 AM
http://umpbump.com/press/2008/07/29/adam-dunn-most-misunderstood-player-of-his-time/

Dunn was on the 2002 All Star team. I am not sure he "MADE" it though!

DaytonFlyer
05-11-2009, 11:58 AM
The guy is on his way to a career year in Washington, and he's going to be a Hall of Famer.

:eek:

I don't mind hyperbole in sports arguments, but in what planet is Dunn on his way to being a hall of famer? Maybe if he hits 70 homers for a couple of years. But not at his current pace. No chance.

GIDP
05-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Dunns greatest problem was that he hit homers. Because of that no one had the stones to bat him 2nd. He wasnt a very good RBI guy in terms of others in the league but his OBP was outstanding. The fact that he hit homers pretty much took away from what his biggest strength was and that was scoring runs.

Ghosts of 1990
05-11-2009, 02:05 PM
:eek:

I don't mind hyperbole in sports arguments, but in what planet is Dunn on his way to being a hall of famer? Maybe if he hits 70 homers for a couple of years. But not at his current pace. No chance.

Oh without a doubt he's a lock if he continues what he's been doing. He's on pace to surpass 500 home runs in about 6 years. In the steroid era, a guy who is clean that hits 500 home runs? He's in.