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ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 03:55 AM
I yelled when he took Rhodes out after pitching to one batter.

Dusty has never heard the expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Ridiculous. And everyone around me watching agreed. It was pitiful.

BigJohn
05-09-2009, 07:20 AM
AMEN. Why won't he just let Rhodes get people out?

jmac
05-09-2009, 08:50 AM
It surprised me because Dusty has used Rhodes all season primarily for an inning at a time regardless of righty or lefty.

Redlegs82
05-09-2009, 08:56 AM
We still have two more games with the cards in the series, i think Dusty wanted to preserve as much of Rhodes as he could in what became a close game.

jfar23
05-09-2009, 09:13 AM
If Rhodes would have stayed in and faced the right handers and gave up a hit and then a bomb to Pujols there would be a thread on here stating the exact opposite. You can micro analyze any baseball move.

I generally agree with your assessment of the play though, far to often managers use the righty/lefty thing without thought of how well a pitcher is doing. Dusty has rarely done that this season.

corwinator3407
05-09-2009, 10:42 AM
We still have two more games with the cards in the series, i think Dusty wanted to preserve as much of Rhodes as he could in what became a close game.

Pretty much my thought, since he pitched Thurs too

fugowitribe
05-09-2009, 10:51 AM
Look at it from Dusty's position....
-Rhodes has faced who you wanted him to face.
-With one out in the 8th he has a righty-lefty matchup that he can avoid with the simple replacement of Rhodes with Weathers.
-If anyone has been as good or better than Rhodes this year it has been Weathers.
-Statistics say that the situation is better for a RH pitcher.
IMO he made the right call, after the fact it is a little harder to say that, but it would take more than just a little "Gut Instinct" to leave Rhodes out there. He played it by the book....which is something he rarely does, just look at his lineups. I guess I don't see the big deal with this move.

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Look at it from Dusty's position....
-Rhodes has faced who you wanted him to face.
-With one out in the 8th he has a righty-lefty matchup that he can avoid with the simple replacement of Rhodes with Weathers.
-If anyone has been as good or better than Rhodes this year it has been Weathers.
-Statistics say that the situation is better for a RH pitcher.
IMO he made the right call, after the fact it is a little harder to say that, but it would take more than just a little "Gut Instinct" to leave Rhodes out there. He played it by the book....which is something he rarely does, just look at his lineups. I guess I don't see the big deal with this move.

If Rhodes can't pitch a full inning, and hopefully that means 3 batters, Dusty shouldn't have put him out there to begin with.

It was the wrong move, and the results bear that out. My feelings didn't come after Weathers gave up all the runs. I felt that way immediately when Dusty went to the mound to take him out.

Anyone who knows Weathers knows he was due to get pounded. You don't take the guy throwing 93-94 mph and replace him with a guy who can't hit 90 mph on his fastball. Or in other words, Rhodes was pitching well and we had no clue what we were going to get from Weathers. I guess Dusty was curious (sarcasm).

If we had lost that game last night, it would have squarely been on the micromanager's shoulders.

We won despite Dusty.

mroby85
05-09-2009, 11:08 AM
I wish everyone would shutup about Dusty, I've never seen a manager want to win more than he does, get off the guys back! It's absolutely ridiculous the way he's constantly ripped around here.

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Also, as for righty lefty thing.

Opponents righthanders are batting .222 against Rhodes. Of Rhodes 9 K's, all have been against RHers.

Rhodes splits against LHers and RHers are good.

Leave him in to face the next 2 batters. If Pujols jacks him or gets a hit, then take him out.

It's so sensible, that's why Dusty doesn't do it. If it doesn't make sense, it must be the right move (sarcasm).

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 11:13 AM
I wish everyone would shutup about Dusty, I've never seen a manager want to win more than he does, get off the guys back! It's absolutely ridiculous the way he's constantly ripped around here.

Oh? So now we're not allowed to criticize the manager's decision-making? :rolleyes:

mroby85
05-09-2009, 11:25 AM
Oh? So now we're not allowed to criticize the manager's decision-making? :rolleyes:

I would feel different if it wasn't every little thing that didn't even end up mattering. Where are his props from 2 nights ago when he left Rhodes in to face the righties and he got them out? Where are his props for this team overachieving with a great atmosphere in the dugout and around the team right now? There are never threads about Dusty doing a good job, just tons and tons and tons of threads about every questionable move he ever makes. There aren't Adam Rosales threads about him not being able to get the ball out of his glove on routine double play balls, because everyone likes him around here. It's just like Dusty can do nothing right in my opinion, because the first time a player fails, it's all his fault.

NorrisHopper30
05-09-2009, 12:15 PM
Reading this thread you'd think the Reds lost last night.

jimbo
05-09-2009, 12:16 PM
I would feel different if it wasn't every little thing that didn't even end up mattering. Where are his props from 2 nights ago when he left Rhodes in to face the righties and he got them out? Where are his props for this team overachieving with a great atmosphere in the dugout and around the team right now? There are never threads about Dusty doing a good job, just tons and tons and tons of threads about every questionable move he ever makes. There aren't Adam Rosales threads about him not being able to get the ball out of his glove on routine double play balls, because everyone likes him around here. It's just like Dusty can do nothing right in my opinion, because the first time a player fails, it's all his fault.

Pretty much the way I feel also. I wasn't crazy about some of things Dusty did last season, but this season I think he's done a pretty good job, especially handling the bullpen. If it was a closer game at the time last night, he probably would have kept Rhodes in, but with the lead they had he wanted to save his arm for the rest of the weekend and Weathers has been great so far. Smart decision, IMO. Besides, it worked out in the end........the REDS WON.

The haters will criticize Dusty for anything that doesn't work and will never give props for the decisions that do work out. Might as well just accept it.

GIDP
05-09-2009, 12:19 PM
Guys Dusty has to leave his mark on every game. Havent you figured this out yet?

TheBigLebowski
05-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Seriously - leave the freaking guy ALONE. I don't think he's the next coming of Casey Stengel but he's done a fine job this year. EVERY single move he makes is torn to shreds by Redszone and largely ignored when it works. How about giving him credit for putting Ramon at first and batting him cleanup these past 2 games? That's worked well. How about crediting him with his handling of our young staff? How about the fact that we're 3 games over .500 right now? That's all in spite of Dusty, right? Besides, it's obvious Dusty does not see Rhodes as a loogy. He's used him against righties several times this season in crucial situations. Furthermore, someone else in the thread already said it but it bears repeating - this place would have melted down last night had Dusty left Rhodes in to face some righties and he gave up some hits. Absolute freaking meltdown. He can't win.

Look, I've been critical of the guy in the past and fans being critical of their team's manager is just a baseball tradition. But the constant harrassment of Dusty Baker is just beyond the pale. Dusty is not a micromanager but he is being micromanaged by the fans here.

FlyerFanatic
05-09-2009, 01:12 PM
Seriously - leave the freaking guy ALONE. I don't think he's the next coming of Casey Stengel but he's done a fine job this year. EVERY single move he makes is torn to shreds by Redszone and largely ignored when it works. How about giving him credit for putting Ramon at first and batting him cleanup these past 2 games? That's worked well. How about crediting him with his handling of our young staff? How about the fact that we're 3 games over .500 right now? That's all in spite of Dusty, right? Besides, it's obvious Dusty does not see Rhodes as a loogy. He's used him against righties several times this season in crucial situations. Furthermore, someone else in the thread already said it but it bears repeating - this place would have melted down last night had Dusty left Rhodes in to face some righties and he gave up some hits. Absolute freaking meltdown. He can't win.

Look, I've been critical of the guy in the past and fans being critical of their team's manager is just a baseball tradition. But the constant harrassment of Dusty Baker is just beyond the pale. Dusty is not a micromanager but he is being micromanaged by the fans here.

dusty played corey patterson for an entire season last year. and 99% of the time at lead off...he deserves all of the criticism he gets. his handling of the pitching staff has more to do with dick pohl and soto working with them in the off season than him. he finally put lance nix in the starting lineup. you can credit him for some of the lineups...but thats almost pure luck than him knowing what hes doing. he tinkers with the lineup each day like its a jigsaw puzzle.

jimbo
05-09-2009, 01:30 PM
dusty played corey patterson for an entire season last year. and 99% of the time at lead off...he deserves all of the criticism he gets.

Patterson started 82 games last season, with only 35 of those starts as the leadoff hitter. So your accusation is way off.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=patteco01&year=2008&t=b

jimbo
05-09-2009, 01:31 PM
his handling of the pitching staff has more to do with dick pohl and soto working with them in the off season than him.

When people mention how well he is handling the pitching staff, they are referring to how he game manages them, and overall I think he has done a very good job of it.

jimbo
05-09-2009, 01:34 PM
he tinkers with the lineup each day like its a jigsaw puzzle.

Actually, I think he does the exact opposite. He only tinkers with the lineup when there are injuries. He has shown that he will stick with players and their lineup positions, even when they are struggling. His lineups when everyone is healthy has stayed pretty consistent.

FlyerFanatic
05-09-2009, 01:37 PM
Actually, I think he does the exact opposite. He only tinkers with the lineup when there are injuries. He has shown that he will stick with players and their lineup positions, even when they are struggling. His lineups when everyone is healthy has stayed pretty consistent.

he might keep the same players...but he does move them up and down the order

FlyerFanatic
05-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Patterson started 82 games last season, with only 35 of those starts as the leadoff hitter. So your accusation is way off.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=patteco01&year=2008&t=b

oh my bad...i guess that makes up for it since patterson hit so well :rolleyes:

jimbo
05-09-2009, 01:38 PM
he might keep the same players...but he does move them up and down the order

Examples? When everyone is healthy.

FlyerFanatic
05-09-2009, 01:39 PM
When people mention how well he is handling the pitching staff, they are referring to how he game manages them, and overall I think he has done a very good job of it.

yea...clearly dick pohl is no where to be seen on the bench...i'm sure dusty isnt getting advice from him at all

mroby85
05-09-2009, 01:50 PM
yea...clearly dick pohl is no where to be seen on the bench...i'm sure dusty isnt getting advice from him at all

I'd just like to congratulate Dusty on a good job of finding this great pitching coach, Dick Pole, who was also his pitching coach in San Francisco, and brought with Dusty to Cincinnati. Good thing Dusty makes good friends to have as bench coaches since he can't do anything well on his own :D (sarcasm)

jimbo
05-09-2009, 02:01 PM
yea...clearly dick pohl is no where to be seen on the bench...i'm sure dusty isnt getting advice from him at all

Advice yes, but Dusty ultimately makes the decisions and should get the credit, or criticism, for them.

tbball10
05-09-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't think Rhodes should have been used at all last night. We were up 5 runs in the 8th, and if Burton or Hererra can't close it out with that lead, they shouldn't be on the team. We can't use Rhodes and Weathers every game; that's how a bullpen gets tired and over used.

TheBigLebowski
05-09-2009, 05:29 PM
I don't think Rhodes should have been used at all last night. We were up 5 runs in the 8th, and if Burton or Hererra can't close it out with that lead, they shouldn't be on the team. We can't use Rhodes and Weathers every game; that's how a bullpen gets tired and over used.

That's a fine argument, but I still have no issue with him pulling Rhodes in lieu of Stormy to face the righties.

Jack Burton
05-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Patterson started 82 games last season, with only 35 of those starts as the leadoff hitter. So your accusation is way off.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=patteco01&year=2008&t=b
You're saying that was acceptable?

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 06:02 PM
If Rhodes would have stayed in and faced the right handers and gave up a hit and then a bomb to Pujols there would be a thread on here stating the exact opposite. You can micro analyze any baseball move.



Baloney.

At that point, it's on Rhodes to get people out. He got the first batter out and then gets yanked for "load-em up Weathers". Brilliant!!!!

ChatterRed
05-09-2009, 06:03 PM
I don't think Rhodes should have been used at all last night. We were up 5 runs in the 8th, and if Burton or Hererra can't close it out with that lead, they shouldn't be on the team. We can't use Rhodes and Weathers every game; that's how a bullpen gets tired and over used.

Actually, that was my initial thought while watching the game. But since Rhodes came out, I went with it. Then the change and that made 2 questionable decisions at that point. I let the first one slide.

cbowen2112
05-09-2009, 06:14 PM
Weathers just gave up the first runs so far this season. How about talking about how well he has pitched so far this year, rather than starting to bash him too. Baker is doing a fine job this year. No big names or egos, just kids who love playing the game.:thumbup:

Lockdwn11
05-10-2009, 02:07 PM
You're saying that was acceptable?

Thats not what he was saying at all, he was just correcting the poster who said Patterson started almost every game last year.

BurgervilleBuck
05-10-2009, 02:23 PM
oh my bad...i guess that makes up for it since patterson hit so well :rolleyes:
You pulled a stat straight out of your backside. You were proved wrong. Deal.

BurgervilleBuck
05-10-2009, 02:29 PM
That's a fine argument, but I still have no issue with him pulling Rhodes in lieu of Stormy to face the righties.

I did at the time because I thought you should ride the hot hand. It didn't help that Weathers got only one out and gave up three runs. But, in the end, the Reds won so it all evens out.

I think one of the fun parts about baseball is how we fans like to out-manage the manager. Why did he do that? Why is he pinch hitting the pitcher? Why this? and all of that. In the end, though, we're just folks in the stands or on the message board. If our opinions meant anything, we'd be in the dugout.

So... chill on Dusty, y'all.

FlyerFanatic
05-10-2009, 02:40 PM
You pulled a stat straight out of your backside. You were proved wrong. Deal.

corey patterson..is that you?

clearly saying he started every game was an exaggeration...get off your high horse buddy.

Slyder
05-11-2009, 10:22 AM
Patterson started 82 games last season, with only 35 of those starts as the leadoff hitter. So your accusation is way off.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=patteco01&year=2008&t=b

He played Patterson for the first month and a half (For most part) of the season as leadoff and BURIED the team in the process.

You can't win division titles in April but you can surely lose em.

BurgervilleBuck
05-11-2009, 11:15 PM
corey patterson..is that you?
Naah. I'm just a guy who is watching his Hockey team in the playoffs.

How did them Flyers do, by the way?

FlyerFanatic
05-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Naah. I'm just a guy who is watching his Hockey team in the playoffs.

How did them Flyers do, by the way?

the flyers did great, made the ncaa tournament and beat west virgina for their first ncaa tourney win in 19 yrs. :thumbup:

BurgervilleBuck
05-12-2009, 03:29 AM
the flyers did great, made the ncaa tournament and beat west virgina for their first ncaa tourney win in 19 yrs. :thumbup:
Ah, ya got me.

Still... first playoff win in 19 years. That's better than the Bengals.

This Corey Patterson thing is in the past. If you asked most folks, the Reds were not going to win with the lineup they had. The team is much stronger this season and they will be better.

DaytonFlyer
05-12-2009, 09:19 AM
the flyers did great, made the ncaa tournament and beat west virgina for their first ncaa tourney win in 19 yrs. :thumbup:

Woooooooooooo!!!!!

Sorry, back to the Reds. Dusty's lineup is hitting the last few days. Although Arroyo didn't need to pitch 7 innings last night. Get Lincoln out there to eat some innings in these blowouts.