PDA

View Full Version : Brandon Phillips



osuceltic
05-14-2009, 11:49 AM
.274 .348 .487 .835

6 HR, team-leading 26 RBIs

Great defense. Great baserunning. Two-out hits. Delivering with runners in scoring position.

He took a lot of crap early in the season. Deserves some credit right now.

Homer Bailey
05-14-2009, 11:54 AM
I was especially hard on him early in the season. I'm glad to see he's starting to use all fields. Gotta give him credit for what he's done the last few weeks.

Razor Shines
05-14-2009, 11:55 AM
.283 .324 .514 - .839 6 HRs through 34 games in '08.

He's been really good lately, I really hope he finishes stronger this year than last.

fearofpopvol1
05-14-2009, 11:56 AM
He was the offensive MVP for the DBacks series...by a longshot. He's playing great ball right now. I think Mark Grace had a mancrush on him the way he was praising him.

BRM
05-14-2009, 11:56 AM
.802 OPS vs RHP so far. Much better than his career numbers. Very nice to see from him.

forfreelin04
05-14-2009, 11:56 AM
.274 .348 .487 .835

6 HR, team-leading 26 RBIs

Great defense. Great baserunning. Two-out hits. Delivering with runners in scoring position.

He took a lot of crap early in the season. Deserves some credit right now.

Agreed, his swagger his back. The Dbacks will not soon forget him.

Amazing how pretty the sky looks when its not falling. It always amazes me how there are so many threads when the team is struggling compared to when it is winning. I can never figure out if Redszoners just don't know how to put winning into words or if most of us are just gluttons for punishment. After 8 years of plenty of threads, I welcome the absence.

Cyclone792
05-14-2009, 12:06 PM
Phillips' plate discipline is better, and his walk rate is up. So far he's walking once every nine plate appearances, which is much better than the 17.7 PA/BB ratio he gave the Reds from 2006-08.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Phillips could significantly spike his walk rate, he'd become a beast. His walk rate is already better this season, and he's now posting the highest on-base percentage of his career. If he maintains his current walk rate for the remainder of the season, he'll deserve to hit cleanup and that .835 OPS will just be the beginning.

But if his walk rate drops back down again ...

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 12:50 PM
Maybe the light has gone of in Phillips head. Its almost like he has changed his approach to let the game come to him instead of forcing the issue. He has quite pressing, has hit the ball where it has been pitched, and has been a force in the 4 hole. Its almost like Phillips has gotten it through his head that this team is pretty good and I don't have to carry the team. I also wonder how much Hernandez's bat has helped Phillips. He no longer has to be "the" RH bat in the lineup.

PuffyPig
05-14-2009, 12:56 PM
I also wonder how much Hernandez's bat has helped Phillips. He no longer has to be "the" RH bat in the lineup.

While I expect it to improve, Hernandez's .685 OPS doesn't exactly scream "another RH bat".

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 01:01 PM
While I expect it to improve, Hernandez's .685 OPS doesn't exactly scream "another RH bat".

He has started to hit better. The HR's and doubles will come with time but he has improved his average quite a bit since his slow start.

Kc61
05-14-2009, 01:04 PM
I maintain Phillips' biggest weakness is his tendency to beat the ball into the ground. He'll never be a big walker. He'll always have some problems with righties.

But he consisently hits the ball hard. When he hits them into the ground, we get all the double plays. When he gets some elevation we get the current hot streak.

CTA513
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
.274 .348 .487 .835

6 HR, team-leading 26 RBIs

Great defense. Great baserunning. Two-out hits. Delivering with runners in scoring position.

He took a lot of crap early in the season. Deserves some credit right now.

and deserved it, just like the other players who sucked when Votto was the only one hitting.

osuceltic
05-14-2009, 01:34 PM
and deserved it, just like the other players who sucked when Votto was the only one hitting.

Let me be clear. He took more crap than he deserved. There is a lot of anti-Phillips sentiment around here. Whether it's his plate discipline, what he says to the media, or that he's not Adam Dunn, I don't know. But he became Whipping Boy No. 1 during his slow start.

CTA513
05-14-2009, 01:42 PM
Let me be clear. He took more crap than he deserved. There is a lot of anti-Phillips sentiment around here. Whether it's his plate discipline, what he says to the media, or that he's not Adam Dunn, I don't know. But he became Whipping Boy No. 1 during his slow start.

That was Encarnacion

nate
05-14-2009, 01:42 PM
Let me be clear. He took more crap than he deserved. There is a lot of anti-Phillips sentiment around here. Whether it's his plate discipline, what he says to the media, or that he's not Adam Dunn, I don't know. But he became Whipping Boy No. 1 during his slow start.

He earned every bit of it; he was horrible to start the year. More than he deserved? I don't know what the "proper" amount of crap one should take comeasurate with their performance but I'd have to say his start was bad enough to take what he got.

Now he's turned it around and he's playing great. Let's enjoy that. Let's enjoy that his plate discipline is up, that he's hitting RHP better and, as always, his nice glove.

Edskin
05-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Agreed, his swagger his back. The Dbacks will not soon forget him.

Amazing how pretty the sky looks when its not falling. It always amazes me how there are so many threads when the team is struggling compared to when it is winning. I can never figure out if Redszoners just don't know how to put winning into words or if most of us are just gluttons for punishment. After 8 years of plenty of threads, I welcome the absence.

I'm tellin you, message boards are like group therapy---and when things are good, people are happy, content and don't have as much to say.

When things are bad, people need to vent and share their misery with others---this is a trend I notice on all message boards. Silence is golden :)

PuffyPig
05-14-2009, 02:23 PM
He has started to hit better. The HR's and doubles will come with time but he has improved his average quite a bit since his slow start.

His average is Ok, but little power and walks.

He should, as you say, improve, but based on his historics, it won't be a huge improvement.

He'll never be "another RH bat per se". He'll hit like a heathy Gonzalez would do. EE has (and will) be better.

edabbs44
05-14-2009, 02:23 PM
That was Encarnacion

Or Taveras. They were like 1a, 1b and 1c.

paulrichjr
05-14-2009, 03:06 PM
I have nothing to back up what I am about to type but I wonder how much of Phillips hitting better is due to Taveras getting on base in front of him. The one thing I like about this team more than some in the past is that it looks like a "team" not a collection of players. I noticed last year when Taveras got on base against the Reds that the pitcher just seemed to do different things when pitching to the next guys. I just think that sometimes a real team can feed off of each other and one player can be the spark that ignites everyone else...Is that spark Taveras? Just asking.

edabbs44
05-14-2009, 03:35 PM
I have nothing to back up what I am about to type but I wonder how much of Phillips hitting better is due to Taveras getting on base in front of him. The one thing I like about this team more than some in the past is that it looks like a "team" not a collection of players. I noticed last year when Taveras got on base against the Reds that the pitcher just seemed to do different things when pitching to the next guys. I just think that sometimes a real team can feed off of each other and one player can be the spark that ignites everyone else...Is that spark Taveras? Just asking.

I think the team is definitely playing with more energy and life than in recent years.

Reds1
05-14-2009, 03:40 PM
you know he's just playing "Reds baseball" :)

VR
05-14-2009, 09:38 PM
I think BP's biggest problem is being asked to be a #4 hitter against righties when he should be at 6 or below.



That said, we've seen a very distinct improvement in the last few weeks. After his ridiculous start, where we saw him pound ball after ball to the left side and lose all confidence.....he adjusted. Big time.

Over the course of several games.....he was suddenly 'forcing' himself to hit the ball to the right side. The result was a lot of really ugly outs, where he was very tentative. As he has gained more confidence and remembered how to be a hitter to all fields. Remember when he got to the Reds? He was a crazy up-the-middle hitter.

Now, we are seeing much better plate coverage. Instead of stubbornly trying to pull those outside pitches down the left field line....resulting in trench warfare to the SS and 3B....he's more comfortable again going up the middle or slapping them to right. As he shows he can cover the outside of the plate, they will start giving him more sugar on the inside. Good stuff.

He still has his moments....but I've seen a very intentional change to his approach, and his hard work has paid off. The influence of Hernandez...and his joy in hitting to right field, may have played into that.


When is the last time you've seen a Reds team content with hitting the ball the other way, shooting for line drives instead of dingers....and showing freaky station to station speed? I'm lovin it.

Razor Shines
05-15-2009, 01:17 AM
He earned every bit of it; he was horrible to start the year. More than he deserved? I don't know what the "proper" amount of crap one should take comeasurate with their performance but I'd have to say his start was bad enough to take what he got.

Now he's turned it around and he's playing great. Let's enjoy that. Let's enjoy that his plate discipline is up, that he's hitting RHP better and, as always, his nice glove.


I was just looking at that chart the other day and according to it we were well within the bounds of "proper amount of crap". Someone has to have a link to it, I can't find it.

WVPacman
05-15-2009, 01:26 AM
Let me be clear. He took more crap than he deserved. There is a lot of anti-Phillips sentiment around here. Whether it's his plate discipline, what he says to the media, or that he's not Adam Dunn, I don't know. But he became Whipping Boy No. 1 during his slow start.

Sorry but I dissagree with you on this.I was one of many who was bashing on Phillips and he deserved every single bit of it.A fan has every right to bash a player when he isn't producing and he got what he deserved.You can't just give a player a pass when he was stinking up the joint.Now he is starting to play good like he did before and you will see almost every poster on here give him major props b/c he deserves it.

Blitz Dorsey
05-15-2009, 02:46 AM
I said when he was struggling I was confident BP would turn things around but was pessimistic about EE (who was still playing at the time). It remains to be seen if EE can turn his season around, but Phillips is making a lot of people eat some crow right now. He's still a double-play machine at times, but he's the productive right-handed bat this team needed in the middle of the order.

BP will drive us crazy at times with pitch selection and always swinging from his heels, but overall you gotta love him.

Razor Shines
05-15-2009, 02:59 AM
I said when he was struggling I was confident BP would turn things around but was pessimistic about EE (who was still playing at the time). It remains to be seen if EE can turn his season around, but Phillips is making a lot of people eat some crow right now. He's still a double-play machine at times, but he's the productive right-handed bat this team needed in the middle of the order.

BP will drive us crazy at times with pitch selection and always swinging from his heels, but overall you gotta love him.

I disagree with this. He's playing extremely well right now, and as Cyclone pointed out his plate patience has been great lately. But let's wait till his October numbers mirror his current number before we declare that anyone should be eating bowls full of crow.

After 34 games last year he also looked pretty good (.283 .324 .514 - .839, 6 HRs) but we know how that turned out.

I think BP is extremely talented and I agree with everything in Cyclone's post. He could be HUGE for this team if he keeps it up.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Phillips could significantly spike his walk rate, he'd become a beast. His walk rate is already better this season, and he's now posting the highest on-base percentage of his career. If he maintains his current walk rate for the remainder of the season, he'll deserve to hit cleanup and that .835 OPS will just be the beginning.

mth123
05-15-2009, 04:25 AM
Phillips is doing well, Even when he's cold, he's a threat and his glove shows up every day. He's not the star that some make him out to be, but he's an above average player with power, speed and superior defense. I'm one who thinks that a number of the guys producing now will come crashing back to Earth, but Phillips is not a guy the team should be looking to replace.

His main problem is the team putting him in the 4 hole against RH pitching. That may make him a little miscast, but holding that against him and saying the team needs to use some one else at 2B would lead to a downgrade at that spot.

Razor Shines
05-15-2009, 05:02 AM
His main problem is the team putting him in the 4 hole against RH pitching. That may make him a little miscast, but holding that against him and saying the team needs to use some one else at 2B would lead to a downgrade at that spot.

Come on MTH, that's a myth.:D Who has argued that someone else should play 2B?

And I pretty much agree with all of this:

Phillips is doing well, Even when he's cold, he's a threat and his glove shows up every day. He's not the star that some make him out to be, but he's an above average player with power, speed and superior defense. I'm one who thinks that a number of the guys producing now will come crashing back to Earth, but Phillips is not a guy the team should be looking to replace.

mth123
05-15-2009, 05:17 AM
Come on MTH, that's a myth.:D Who has argued that someone else should play 2B?




I may be remembering wrong, but I recall a number of posts suggesting a move to Hairston, Valiaka, etc while pushing BP out the door. I don't think the Reds have anyone in the system who will man 2B as well as Phillips. I like defense up the middle and all the current "in system" options are questionable defensively IMO.

Ron Madden
05-15-2009, 06:49 AM
I may be remembering wrong, but I recall a number of posts suggesting a move to Hairston, Valiaka, etc while pushing BP out the door.

Wow, I'm glad I missed those threads. ;)

nate
05-15-2009, 10:01 AM
I don't understand the whole "crow eating" thing for calling it like it is when the guy played poorly. He stunk, he deserved it. Now he's hitting well. I would actually say he's hitting as well as he ever has. I'm hoping he can turn this two week torrid streak into a season long affair.

And I still think he should hit 2nd. When he was going bad, I thought about moving him down but also, instead of giving him that perceived snub, try moving him up a spot. Then you have two fast guys batting back to back. If BP gets a little "grounder to short" happy, have him lay off a few pitches to give Willy a chance to steal second.

CrackerJack
05-15-2009, 01:49 PM
If BP were Ryan Freel or Austin Kearns, people would want a street named after one of them by now.

Chip R
05-15-2009, 01:54 PM
If BP were Ryan Freel or Austin Kearns, people would want a street named after one of them by now.


Brandon is extremely popular.

CrackerJack
05-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Brandon is extremely popular.

How so? (not necessariliy questioning the validity of that, but am not sure what you're basing it on - at least the "extremely" part)

On Redszone he's absolutely one of the most unpopular players, for whatever reason - every post about him is tempered with criticism and mention of his shortcomings, versus looking at what he does well it seems.

Listening to a bad WLW sport talk episode one night driving home a couple of weeks ago, an entire hour was devoted to BP bashing, all because of his "lack of hustle," on one play, where he sulked.

It's as if the guy hasn't existed here for the last 2 years.

I would just like to see the same venom applied to guys like EE, Bruce, Gonzalez, whomever, when they are slumping. Because that's what it was - BP being forced into a spot in the order he's not really suited for - and until now was surrounded by a group of slumping bats outside of Votto.

The guy has always played GG defense - he's just scapegoated here and around the city by the local fuddy duddies because he's a bit of a hot dog and wears his hat crooked some times.

BRM
05-15-2009, 02:13 PM
Much more venom gets thrown EE's way than Brandon's IMO. At least on this board.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 02:23 PM
Much more venom gets thrown EE's way than Brandon's IMO. At least on this board.

That's interesting. I think it's the other way around. I think people make a lot of excuses for EE while nitpicking everything about Phillips.

BRM
05-15-2009, 02:32 PM
That's interesting. I think it's the other way around. I think people make a lot of excuses for EE while nitpicking everything about Phillips.

No doubt EE has his defenders. That doesn't change the fact that lots of "venom" gets thrown his way though. EE has become quite the lightning rod.

nate
05-15-2009, 02:33 PM
On Redszone he's absolutely one of the most unpopular players, for whatever reason - every post about him is tempered with criticism and mention of his shortcomings, versus looking at what he does well it seems.

I don't think that's true.


Listening to a bad WLW sport talk episode one night driving home a couple of weeks ago, an entire hour was devoted to BP bashing, all because of his "lack of hustle," on one play, where he sulked.Well, Sports talk focuses on the minutiae of sports. I didn't hear that glorious hour of radio but I can remember a couple of plays it might've referred to. My response? The guy has dogged it on a couple of plays this year and got called out. Welcome to the show.



I would just like to see the same venom applied to guys like EE, Bruce, Gonzalez, whomever, when they are slumping. Well, just start clicking and reading then. There's a ton of that to go around.


Because that's what it was - BP being forced into a spot in the order he's not really suited for - and until now was surrounded by a group of slumping bats outside of Votto.Now that he's doing well, is he still not suited for it?


The guy has always played GG defense - he's just scapegoated here and around the city by the local fuddy duddies because he's a bit of a hot dog and wears his hat crooked some times.I don't think that's the crux of the issue at all.

Chip R
05-15-2009, 02:35 PM
How so? (not necessariliy questioning the validity of that, but am not sure what you're basing it on - at least the "extremely" part)

On Redszone he's absolutely one of the most unpopular players, for whatever reason - every post about him is tempered with criticism and mention of his shortcomings, versus looking at what he does well it seems.

Listening to a bad WLW sport talk episode one night driving home a couple of weeks ago, an entire hour was devoted to BP bashing, all because of his "lack of hustle," on one play, where he sulked.

It's as if the guy hasn't existed here for the last 2 years.

I would just like to see the same venom applied to guys like EE, Bruce, Gonzalez, whomever, when they are slumping. Because that's what it was - BP being forced into a spot in the order he's not really suited for - and until now was surrounded by a group of slumping bats outside of Votto.

The guy has always played GG defense - he's just scapegoated here and around the city by the local fuddy duddies because he's a bit of a hot dog and wears his hat crooked some times.

The kids love him. It's cliche but it's true. One reason is that he signs a lot of autographs and is always smiling and laughing. He has also produced in the past and he's a Gold Glover. The media loves him even if they think he's a little strange at times.

He should have got bashed for his lack of hustle. Just like any player would. But I think people are quicker to forgive him for that than they are for others.

He is bashed here quite a bit but it's nothing compared to what Dunn and Jr. got. Lots of players get bashed around here. Both Boones, Sean Casey, Arroyo, Larkin, Graves, even Bruce. No player is immune from it no matter how popular they are.

For better or worse, Brandon has been anointed by the Reds as the face of the franchise.

CTA513
05-15-2009, 02:41 PM
The kids love him. It's cliche but it's true. One reason is that he signs a lot of autographs and is always smiling and laughing. He has also produced in the past and he's a Gold Glover. The media loves him even if they think he's a little strange at times.

He should have got bashed for his lack of hustle. Just like any player would. But I think people are quicker to forgive him for that than they are for others.

He is bashed here quite a bit but it's nothing compared to what Dunn and Jr. got. Lots of players get bashed around here. Both Boones, Sean Casey, Arroyo, Larkin, Graves, even Bruce. No player is immune from it no matter how popular they are.

For better or worse, Brandon has been anointed by the Reds as the face of the franchise.


:thumbup:

Will M
05-15-2009, 02:52 PM
Much more venom gets thrown EE's way than Brandon's IMO. At least on this board.

EE has a career OPS+ of 100.
Phillips has a career OPS+ of 97.

EE is a terrible defensive third baseman who needs to be moved to 1B or LF.
Phillips is a gold glove defensive second baseman.

EE has average speed on the bases.
Phillips has very good speed on the bases.

Phillips is by no means a great player but he is clearly a better player than EE.

BRM
05-15-2009, 02:56 PM
EE has a career OPS+ of 100.
Phillips has a career OPS+ of 97.

EE is a terrible defensive third baseman who needs to be moved to 1B or LF.
Phillips is a gold glove defensive second baseman.

EE has average speed on the bases.
Phillips has very good speed on the bases.

Phillips is by no means a great player but he is clearly a better player than EE.

I wasn't discussing who deserved to get ripped more. I was merely disagreeing with the poster who thought BP got hammered more than EE by Reds fans.

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2009, 03:15 PM
Does BP take more heat because of some of the comments that he makes? He seemed to be full of excuses when the Reds returned home from the seasons first road trip, and wanted to point to the media as the reason for the teams woes at home because they were writing about his struggles.

I've been a major critic of BP and most of it is due to things he can't control such as hitting 4th against RHP... But I always knew that he would heat up and get his numbers back to respectable. And as good as he's going right now, I don't think he's this good... And I don't think he's as bad as what he was in April. I think my biggest gripe with him is that he thinks he has to swing out of his shoes all the time. He almost falls down once a game because of a ginormous hack, and this normally takes place early in the count. He is so much more dangerous when he's trying to stay backside and through the middle, yet he still must swing from the heels at least once an AB. That is what frustrates me and makes me look at him as a selfish player.

traderumor
05-15-2009, 03:23 PM
I'm not sure that I agree that swinging from the heels makes one selfish any more than choking up on the bat makes one a team player.

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2009, 03:38 PM
It probably is my point of view, but I don't see how a guy almost falling down on a swing is trying to do anything but hit it 500 ft. He has enough pop to get the ball out of the park without swinging like that... Besides the moonshot he hit off Haren, I don't recall him getting any other hits when swinging out of control. I have felt like this for a while, but I agree with what Welsh had to say the other night "The first two swings belong to Brandon and the last one belongs to the team."

I'm not trying to make this into whether or not he's a ME first guy... I think most players are to a certain extent. I'm just saying that a change in his approach could make him a better player for himself and for the Cincinnati Reds.

CaiGuy
05-15-2009, 03:55 PM
The thing I like most about Phillips' start is his results against RH pitching:

vs. RHP


ave obp slg ops
2008 - .247 .293 .383 .676
2009 - .268 .351 .451 .802

LoganBuck
05-15-2009, 04:02 PM
It probably is my point of view, but I don't see how a guy almost falling down on a swing is trying to do anything but hit it 500 ft. He has enough pop to get the ball out of the park without swinging like that... Besides the moonshot he hit off Haren, I don't recall him getting any other hits when swinging out of control. I have felt like this for a while, but I agree with what Welsh had to say the other night "The first two swings belong to Brandon and the last one belongs to the team."

I'm not trying to make this into whether or not he's a ME first guy... I think most players are to a certain extent. I'm just saying that a change in his approach could make him a better player for himself and for the Cincinnati Reds.

:thumbup:

It was revealed last week by Chris Welsh that Brandon Phillips was the most fined player on the Reds last season, and that it was probably that way again this year. Dusty doesn't make those things public but Chris did share that last week.

My problem with Phillips is that he is a "me" guy, that masquerades as a "we" guy, when a camera is in front of his face. The fact that he has been going good, doesn't change the fact that he will go into another deep slump soon, and then the bellyaching will begin again. If he would shorten his swing at certain times from the beginning of the at bat, I would be happier. He is still a free swinger, and he is currently in a groove. While it is fun to watch now, be prepared for the backside of it, and I am sure he will be doing it from the cleanup spot.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 04:52 PM
The thing I like most about Phillips' start is his results against RH pitching:

vs. RHP


ave obp slg ops
2008 - .247 .293 .383 .676
2009 - .268 .351 .451 .802

Agreed. And if he can keep it up, he won't look so bad in that cleanup spot.

(Although he would look even better in the 6 hole with a true cleanup guy batting fourth.)

traderumor
05-15-2009, 04:58 PM
:thumbup:

It was revealed last week by Chris Welsh that Brandon Phillips was the most fined player on the Reds last season, and that it was probably that way again this year. Dusty doesn't make those things public but Chris did share that last week.

My problem with Phillips is that he is a "me" guy, that masquerades as a "we" guy, when a camera is in front of his face. The fact that he has been going good, doesn't change the fact that he will go into another deep slump soon, and then the bellyaching will begin again. If he would shorten his swing at certain times from the beginning of the at bat, I would be happier. He is still a free swinger, and he is currently in a groove. While it is fun to watch now, be prepared for the backside of it, and I am sure he will be doing it from the cleanup spot.I can certainly see a chance to be more selective, but I'm still not sure what is taboo about a middle of the lineup guy swinging from the heels. Have you noticed that Joey Votto does the exact same thing very frequently on strike 1? It doesn't matter the count. He has a smoother swing instead of the dramatic uppercut that Phillips has so he looks prettier doing it. He realizes he is middle of the order and takes a hearty cut on strike 1, esp. if he is trying to catch up with a heater. Where's the bellyaching for that?

BTW, I did make fun of Brandon in the game thread for actually connecting and is now 1 for 100 when swinging from the heels. Votto is currently 0fer on such hacks. They don't connect, both are guilty, but only one gets criticized.

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2009, 05:08 PM
When you're hitting .375 you get away with such things... Not to mention that during BPs month long slump he didn't tone it down later in the count. Maybe he's learning, and maybe his confidence is making a difference. BTW, I do see Bruce do the same thing. The biggest difference is Votto's ability to adjust and produce a quality AB.

traderumor
05-15-2009, 05:12 PM
When you're hitting .375 you get away with such things... Not to mention that during BPs month long slump he didn't tone it down later in the count. Maybe he's learning, and maybe his confidence is making a difference. BTW, I do see Bruce do the same thing. The biggest difference is Votto's ability to adjust and produce a quality AB.Which is exactly what BP is doing, adjusting late in the count and giving a quality AB. His slumps are awful to watch, that is not news, but his approach is same as it ever was. Really, the only problem I have with BP is the front office's problem, and that is finding a 4 hitter so BP can hit in the 6 hole where he belongs.

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2009, 05:25 PM
Which is exactly what BP is doing, adjusting late in the count and giving a quality AB. His slumps are awful to watch, that is not news, but his approach is same as it ever was. Really, the only problem I have with BP is the front office's problem, and that is finding a 4 hitter so BP can hit in the 6 hole where he belongs.


I agree with that for the most part. The problem I see is an approach that needs fixed... I've believed for a long time that Brandon has the talent to do anything on a baseball field, the problem is showing him what he does best and what makes him a dangerous hitter. I also disagree that Votto does that every AB like Brandon. Votto does it once and again, but he's approach is dictated by the situation. Brandon swings from the heels early and often, situation be damned.

Razor Shines
05-15-2009, 05:26 PM
I can certainly see a chance to be more selective, but I'm still not sure what is taboo about a middle of the lineup guy swinging from the heels. Have you noticed that Joey Votto does the exact same thing very frequently on strike 1? It doesn't matter the count. He has a smoother swing instead of the dramatic uppercut that Phillips has so he looks prettier doing it. He realizes he is middle of the order and takes a hearty cut on strike 1, esp. if he is trying to catch up with a heater. Where's the bellyaching for that?

BTW, I did make fun of Brandon in the game thread for actually connecting and is now 1 for 100 when swinging from the heels. Votto is currently 0fer on such hacks. They don't connect, both are guilty, but only one gets criticized.

That is an awesome stat, link that for me. I want to compare them to guys around the league.

traderumor
05-15-2009, 05:45 PM
That is an awesome stat, link that for me. I want to compare them to guys around the league.Sure. www.madeupbbstatsbasedonobservationbias.com

CTA513
05-15-2009, 05:56 PM
When you're hitting .375 you get away with such things... Not to mention that during BPs month long slump he didn't tone it down later in the count. Maybe he's learning, and maybe his confidence is making a difference. BTW, I do see Bruce do the same thing. The biggest difference is Votto's ability to adjust and produce a quality AB.


Votto also doesn't have a problem using the whole field.

traderumor
05-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Votto also doesn't have a problem using the whole field.Just to make myself clear, I was only comparing the swing from the heels tendency of Votto as well. Personally, I see it as a wasted swing no matter how good a hitter he is. He doesn't make contact either. Both should stop, but I imagine their mindset is "if I do ever get a hold of that pitch" and they take the whack when they have a strike to give. Both do it with men on base as well.

Razor Shines
05-15-2009, 06:06 PM
Sure. www.madeupbbstatsbasedonobservationbias.com

hmmm...It's not working. Are you sure it's not "observationalbias"?

Scrap Irony
05-15-2009, 07:44 PM
Just over the past five days, EE and Phillips are about even on negative posts. (EE leads by three.) Over the course of the season, BP leads by a landslide. (Well over 400 posts.)

I am counting the Game Threads in that analysis, however, so that skews it slightly. For example, three nights ago, there were four pages full of Phillips bashing about how poorly he has hit this season and about how his approach just wasn't working at this time.

Redszone is certainly pro-EdE, as per post number. Perhaps the EdE bashers only state their opinion once or twice rather than a constant posting. Perhaps it's because of Encarnacion's injury (though the recent thread on Encarnacion specifically boosted his "bash numbers").

mth123
05-15-2009, 08:50 PM
Crummy players seem to become darlings for doing something that makes them passable once in a while. Good players seem to be hated because they aren't perfect. Heck I'm guilty of it as well sometimes.

IMO Phillips is a good player, as is EE, Arroyo, and yes Adam Dunn.

traderumor
05-15-2009, 08:59 PM
hmmm...It's not working. Are you sure it's not "observationalbias"?No, that's the way its spelled. Works fine for me. :)

Mario-Rijo
05-15-2009, 09:16 PM
Crummy players seem to become darlings for doing something that makes them passable once in a while. Good players seem to be hated because they aren't perfect. Heck I'm guilty of it as well sometimes.

IMO Phillips is a good player, as is EE, Arroyo, and yes Adam Dunn.

The reason Rosales for example is appreciated to this point is because he is making the most of his talents. The reason certain others get bashed is because they seem ok with how good they already are and either don't want to put in the work or are afraid to screw up what is already working. Votto happens to be the poster child for both sides of the argument he has significant talent and yet doesn't rest on his laurels thus why he is loved by all and not criticized by any.

mth123
05-15-2009, 09:26 PM
The reason Rosales for example is appreciated to this point is because he is making the most of his talents. The reason certain others get bashed is because they seem ok with how good they already are and either don't want to put in the work or are afraid to screw up what is already working. Votto happens to be the poster child for both sides of the argument he has significant talent and yet doesn't rest on his laurels thus why he is loved by all and not criticized by any.

Even if all this is true, a grade A talent performing at a grade B level is still better than a grade D talent performing at a grade C level.

Mario-Rijo
05-15-2009, 10:02 PM
Even if all this is true, a grade A talent performing at a grade B level is still better than a grade D talent performing at a grade C level.

No question. But talent is god given, work ethic is a choice. It's hard to knock a guy who is doing all he can.

Team Clark
05-15-2009, 11:52 PM
Glad to see Phillips taking advantage right now. I have watched nearly every game and have most of them on TiVo. I was able to look back and see that Brandon is REALLY hammering the breaking ball. Accounting for almost 75% of his hits by my count in his last 10 games. Granted some were hangers, but YOU HAVE TO hit those mistakes. He's still late on a lot of fastballs but you wouldn't know it after the last HR in Arizona. He got his hips and hands started early and hammered that inside FB.

He's still uppercutting a bit and struggles when someone throws quality pitches down int he zone. Then again, who doesn't? It only takes one quality swing and one good game to get you in sync. I hope this up turn for Phillips lasts awhile. As always, he's fun to watch.

RedsManRick
05-16-2009, 01:21 AM
The reason Rosales for example is appreciated to this point is because he is making the most of his talents. The reason certain others get bashed is because they seem ok with how good they already are and either don't want to put in the work or are afraid to screw up what is already working. Votto happens to be the poster child for both sides of the argument he has significant talent and yet doesn't rest on his laurels thus why he is loved by all and not criticized by any.

I'm just curious what this claim is based on. By all accounts, EE is one of the hardest workers on the team. I'm not clear how Rosales sprinting to his position or around the bases on a home run has anything to do with "making the most of his talents." There seems to be an awful lot of projection about guys work ethics and attitudes when we don't really have any basis for those claims.

When it comes to EE, it seems some people are confusing a lack of success or improvement with a lack of effort. It's quite possible EE is already maxing out his abilities in the field.

Mario-Rijo
05-16-2009, 04:29 AM
I'm just curious what this claim is based on. By all accounts, EE is one of the hardest workers on the team. I'm not clear how Rosales sprinting to his position or around the bases on a home run has anything to do with "making the most of his talents." There seems to be an awful lot of projection about guys work ethics and attitudes when we don't really have any basis for those claims.

When it comes to EE, it seems some people are confusing a lack of success or improvement with a lack of effort. It's quite possible EE is already maxing out his abilities in the field.

Who said Rosales was making the most of his talents just because he runs hard?

We probably never will have much basis for those kinds of claims and even when we do they are mostly ignored, but as soon as someone says hey this guy works hard we run with it. I look at things like this, I see better than I hear and what I see after holding my tongue for 3-4 years of development and giving EE the benefit of the doubt (as I have most every major reds prospect) is little to no change in any part of his game sans a slight improvement in BB rate. But that has had no positive impact as of yet on his overall OPS and in fact it's went backwards if I'm nitpicking. Maybe I am being too hard on these guys but I expect excellence from Reds players is that such a bad thing? I guess they all aren't Votto and Harang.

Ron Madden
05-16-2009, 05:20 AM
Edwin gets bashed more often than Brandon on the Radio, TV, Newspapers, Blogs, and Message Boards.

The worst things I've seen/heard said about Brandon were.

1. He is ill suited for the clean up roll in the batting order. (not his fault)

2. He hits into his fare share of double plays.

3. Occasional cases of lack of hustle.

The list of negative comments about Edwin goes much farther than that.

With Marty and Jeff leading the charge Edwin has been accused of not hustling, being non clutch and even Dim Witted.

Most members of RedsZone see no need to stand up and defend Brandon from criticisms.

While a few members of RedsZone do a pretty good job of defending Edwin from many false criticisms.

Hope this makes sense. :)

Jpup
05-16-2009, 08:12 AM
Glad to see Phillips taking advantage right now. I have watched nearly every game and have most of them on TiVo. I was able to look back and see that Brandon is REALLY hammering the breaking ball. Accounting for almost 75% of his hits by my count in his last 10 games. Granted some were hangers, but YOU HAVE TO hit those mistakes. He's still late on a lot of fastballs but you wouldn't know it after the last HR in Arizona. He got his hips and hands started early and hammered that inside FB.

He's still uppercutting a bit and struggles when someone throws quality pitches down int he zone. Then again, who doesn't? It only takes one quality swing and one good game to get you in sync. I hope this up turn for Phillips lasts awhile. As always, he's fun to watch.

That was a backup slider he hit off Haren.

PuffyPig
05-16-2009, 10:57 AM
The worst things I've seen/heard said about Brandon were.

He hits into his fare share of double plays.



Last year he has 13.

97 majors leaguers had as many or more.

Team Clark
05-16-2009, 11:44 AM
That was a backup slider he hit off Haren.

You are correct. I went back to look at it and indeed a slider. Good catch. :D So, that makes all but two of his extra base hits in the last 11 games were hit off of breaking balls. Interesting.

Ron Madden
05-17-2009, 01:22 AM
Last year he has 13.

97 majors leaguers had as many or more.


Didn't say it's my opionion he hits into too many DPs. Just that it's one of the few criticisms I've read or heard about Brandon.

fearofpopvol1
06-21-2009, 04:18 AM
Granted we're only 1/3 of the way into the season, but Brandon Phillips has walked more than he's struck out so far this year. And further, he is approaching a .900 OPS.

I know he's not a perfect player, but he's a hustler.

mth123
06-21-2009, 04:40 AM
Brandon Phillips is a fine player and gets too much grief on this board IMO. He has flaws but all players have flaws. The Reds could use more elite defienders who can also contribute on offense. It seems that they have too many guys who are one or the other and not enough guys like Phillips IMO.

HokieRed
06-21-2009, 11:23 AM
Brandon Phillips is a fine player and gets too much grief on this board IMO. He has flaws but all players have flaws. The Reds could use more elite defienders who can also contribute on offense. It seems that they have too many guys who are one or the other and not enough guys like Phillips IMO.

Agreed. And frankly with Votto out and Bruce struggling, he's becoming what he may have wanted to be: the leader of this team. His frankness is, IMO, refreshing even though I often don't agree with him. I still think on a better team he shouldn't bat third or fourth against right-handers but Dusty hasn't really had a lot of choices.

Cedric
06-21-2009, 11:34 AM
Not a bad OPS for someone "hacktastic" and Willy Taveras light.

RedEye
06-21-2009, 10:04 PM
I've been pleasantly surprised by BP's increased plate discipline this year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a .355 OBP is pretty decent for any hitter--and a HUGE improvement for a player whose career norm used to be around .330. We'll see if it lasts, but so far '09 looks to be the year that Brandon really starts to put it all together offensively.

redsfandan
06-22-2009, 03:47 AM
Here's his bb/so ratio while a Red:

2006 0.40
2007 0.30
2008 0.42
2009 1.04

It's still a little less than half a season but that's still a dramatic improvement. I'd love it if he kept that up. That maybe asking alot but hopefully it doesn't slip too much the rest of the way. Now if only he could work on putting his foot in his mouth a little less.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2009, 03:55 AM
In past seasons, Phillips was very streaky with BBs. This year, he's taken walks at a far greater rate, sure, but he's also spread them out at a much better and more consistent rate. His K rate, meanwhile, has gone in the opposite direction. No more is he an automatic out on a low and away slider.

But he's still pretty streaky.

If past seasons are an indication of what is to come, Phillips will hit a major slump where he cannot buy a hit. He'll K in bunches. And refuse to walk.

I'm hoping he's gotten a bit smarter and a bit better. I doubt that will translate into a 1:1 K:BB rate for the season, but I'd love it if he did.

redsfandan
06-22-2009, 04:00 AM
Yeah I'm not expecting the 1.04 ratio to stick all season but in his three previous seasons as a Red he's still never put up even a half season with a ratio close to that. Even if it slides down to 0.70 for the season that would still be a nice improvement.

TheNext44
06-22-2009, 04:33 AM
He really has been a much more patient two strike hitter this year. Before this year he walked 5% of the time with two strikes. This year, over 10%. He is learning to cut down his swing, foul of pitches and work the count, even when he is behind in it.

You can see it in his PA's during the game, and his numbers show it too. That's a sign of a more mature hitter. Great to see.

paulrichjr
07-06-2009, 02:43 PM
I didn't read this thread over again before bumping it so this might have been discussed but I noticed a blurb on the scoreboard Saturday that said Brandon Phillips was the 8th hardest batter to strikeout in MLB this season. (might have said NL but I think it said MLB)

That is amazing if true. I'm not really sure what metric they are using but my son looked at me and said it was ironic considering the night before he striked out with the bases juiced.

jojo
07-06-2009, 06:11 PM
I think alot of fans think Phillips is having a great season at the plate.

However, his whole season thus far is being driven by a roughly two week stretch.

It's funny how perception can be colored.



Split PA AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Apr/Mar 82 69 0.188 0.293 0.319 0.612
May 98 88 0.352 0.392 0.682 1.074
June 114 99 0.253 0.325 0.394 0.719
July 22 20 0.25 0.318 0.3 0.618

Brutus
07-06-2009, 06:30 PM
I think alot of fans think Phillips is having a great season at the plate.

However, his whole season thus far is being driven by a roughly two week stretch.

It's funny how perception can be colored.



Split PA AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Apr/Mar 82 69 0.188 0.293 0.319 0.612
May 98 88 0.352 0.392 0.682 1.074
June 114 99 0.253 0.325 0.394 0.719
July 22 20 0.25 0.318 0.3 0.618


We're basically one half of the way into the season and Phillips, as a 2B, has an .800 OPS, 11 HR & 53 RBI, a decent .337 OBP, a 1:1 walk to strikeout rate (one of only 14 players in major league baseball to have that) and among all 20 qualified second basemen, he's 8th in the majors in OPS. That's not perception that he's having a good season. At this point, it's reality.

jojo
07-06-2009, 06:32 PM
We're basically one half of the way into the season and Phillips, as a 2B, has an .800 OPS, 11 HR & 53 RBI, a decent .337 OBP, a 1:1 walk to strikeout rate and among all 20 qualified second basemen, he's 8th in the majors in OPS. That's not perception that he's having a good season. At this point, it's reality.

You've pretty much missed the point, I think.

Mario-Rijo
07-06-2009, 08:32 PM
I think alot of fans think Phillips is having a great season at the plate.

However, his whole season thus far is being driven by a roughly two week stretch.

It's funny how perception can be colored.



Split PA AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Apr/Mar 82 69 0.188 0.293 0.319 0.612
May 98 88 0.352 0.392 0.682 1.074
June 114 99 0.253 0.325 0.394 0.719
July 22 20 0.25 0.318 0.3 0.618


Perhaps you just haven't been watching him Jojo and if so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But that statement isn't at all true. Granted it's been at times somewhat subtle, but at other times this season he has been his old self (not at all subtle) and other times someone new meshing last year and prior to a bit more disciplined fellow. And he like Bruce is off and on with this new approach. He may have produced a large part of his #'s during a specific span but that doesn't tell the story of who he has been at the plate. Sometimes he has the right approach but it doesn't neccessarily lead to better production (mostly early on). But as the season has worn he has been better (approach wise) more consistently.

jojo
07-06-2009, 10:07 PM
Perhaps you just haven't been watching him Jojo and if so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But that statement isn't at all true.

I've missed a plate appearance here or there but accept for a 2 week stretch, he's on target with his preseason projections: .269/.320/.440, wOBA=.330. New approach? He's walked more but really, he's not having a "great season".


PA's ave OBP SLG wOBA
May 3 thru 19 64 0.390 0.438 0.678 0.471
Rest of Year 244 0.235 0.320 0.401 0.322


On any given night, Reds fans should expect something like a league average bat from him....


Granted it's been at times somewhat subtle, but at other times this season he has been his old self (not at all subtle) and other times someone new meshing last year and prior to a bit more disciplined fellow. And he like Bruce is off and on with this new approach. He may have produced a large part of his #'s during a specific span but that doesn't tell the story of who he has been at the plate. Sometimes he has the right approach but it doesn't neccessarily lead to better production (mostly early on). But as the season has worn he has been better (approach wise) more consistently.

I do agree that he's been pretty consistent this season.....

TheNext44
07-07-2009, 01:20 AM
I think alot of fans think Phillips is having a great season at the plate.

However, his whole season thus far is being driven by a roughly two week stretch.

It's funny how perception can be colored.



Split PA AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Apr/Mar 82 69 0.188 0.293 0.319 0.612
May 98 88 0.352 0.392 0.682 1.074
June 114 99 0.253 0.325 0.394 0.719
July 22 20 0.25 0.318 0.3 0.618


Nice research. Interesting stuff.

My perception is colored by total numbers, not cherry picked streaks.

There simply is no way to know if Phillips will never see a two weeks again this year like he did in May, or if he will repeat in the second half what he did in the first and have one more solid two weeks surrounded by league average, or maybe he will go on two or three of those streaks, or even one long streak like he did in May.

There really is no way to know what to expect going forward, except that he most likely will have solid PA's the rest of the way, with a much improved contact rate, and walk rate from his career before this year.

Ron Madden
07-07-2009, 04:15 AM
Sometimes I think we get carried away by labeling players as streaky hitters.

When we look back at our favorite players from the past we judge them from their career totals. Career totals are the sum of that players year end totals.

I believe year end totals mean far more than hot/cold streaks.

Good year end totals add up to a good career.

(JMHO)

redsfandan
07-07-2009, 08:52 AM
I think alot of fans think Phillips is having a great season at the plate.

However, his whole season thus far is being driven by a roughly two week stretch.

It's funny how perception can be colored.



Split PA AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Apr/Mar 82 69 0.188 0.293 0.319 0.612
May 98 88 0.352 0.392 0.682 1.074
June 114 99 0.253 0.325 0.394 0.719
July 22 20 0.25 0.318 0.3 0.618

I wouldn't say Phillips is having a "great" year. And baseball players are notoriously streaky, moreso than in probably any other sport. What's different this year is the plate discipline. Even if you break it down month by month the bb/k ratio has been consistently better every month this year compared to every month last year. In that respect there has been a noticeable difference. Like night and day. The important questions are whether he can keep it up and what it would mean if he does.

2008
March/April 119 plate appearances, 8 walks, 24 k's
May 117 pa's, 8/14
June 115 pa's, 6/16
July 106 pa's, 6/18
August 113 pa's, 8/16
Sept/Oct 39 pa's, 3/5

2009
March/April 82 plate appearances, 11 walks, 10 k's
May 98 pa's, 6/7
June 114 pa's, 11/10
July 22 pa's, 2/3

* - I apologize for this not being as easy to read. I wanted to put the stats into a table but wasn't sure how.

HokieRed
07-07-2009, 09:23 AM
My amateur statistician's eye suggests to me that the numbers redsfan has put up are really too small to point to much of anything. If they do suggest something, it looks like BP is striking out less, not necessarily walking much more. One thing Jojo's OPS figures do suggest, at least to me, is that--completely apart from questions of streakiness or how a player's year is made--a good team doesn't want somebody like BP hitting much higher than about 7th.

jojo
07-07-2009, 09:29 AM
Brandon's K% is significantly down and his BB% is significantly up for the season.

For his career, BP has struckout almost 3 times more than he's walked. To this point in the current season he has roughly one walk for every time he has struck out.

redsfandan
07-07-2009, 10:29 AM
My amateur statistician's eye suggests to me that the numbers redsfan has put up are really too small to point to much of anything. If they do suggest something, it looks like BP is striking out less, not necessarily walking much more. ...
If it was just one month I'd agree but we're looking at half a season now. I broke it down by month just to show how consistent the improvement in bb/k has been this year. Comparing only the amount of walks in May of this year to how many he had each month in '08 can be misleading. Over a full season the walks add up. Over the last 3 seasons Phillips has averaged about 36 walks a season. He already has 30 at exactly the halfway mark. If he keeps up this pace that would mean 60 walks for the season which would be roughly 67% more walks than his 3-year average ('06-'08) and 59% more walks than his previous best of 39.

While the improvement in walks and k's is worth noting it hasn't been reflected in a better OB% although his BAbip is a little lower than where it was the last 3 seasons. Long-term who knows what this means, if anything, but these kind of improvements are worth keeping an eye on.

... One thing Jojo's OPS figures do suggest, at least to me, is that--completely apart from questions of streakiness or how a player's year is made--a good team doesn't want somebody like BP hitting much higher than about 7th.You want your best hitters at the top of the lineup. I just don't think we have 6 better hitters than Phillips right now.

HokieRed
07-07-2009, 10:32 AM
No question we don't have six better hitters than Phillips: I don't consider us a very good team.

redsfandan
07-07-2009, 10:56 AM
We're below average offensively and above average in pitching and defense. If EE starts to hit, Dickerson is in center, and Hanigan behind the plate the offense improves. With alot of luck (Volquez back, Arroyo pitching better, EE hits like he should, etc. etc) the Reds could still make some noise in the 2nd half. But the all-star break couldn't come at a better time.