PDA

View Full Version : Find the RH bat



osuceltic
05-14-2009, 01:49 PM
We talk about this in other threads, so I thought I'd create a specific thread for it. If the Reds are in the race in June/July, we all expect them to be on the hunt for one thing: A big RH bat for the middle of the lineup. Let's throw out some names.

The obvious one is Matt Holliday. I think this is tough because Billy Beane isn't going to give him up for anything less than a king's ransom, even though Holliday has struggled. He is one of the few GMs who will let Holliday walk and consider the draft picks adequate compensation. So that's a tough deal to make, although Holliday would be a great fit.

Other names suggested:

Jermaine Dye
Miguel Tejada
Andruw Jones
Jayson Werth

Let's try to get creative, but not too creative. For example, this player probably will be either a corner outfielder or a third baseman. So let's avoid scenarios where we add this guy and move Votto to LF or add that guy and move Phillips to SS. Those things aren't going to happen mid-season. Also, let's stick to RH bats. No debates about the LH-RH thing. Regardless of your personal opinion on this subject, it's pretty clear the Reds favor the RH bat unless there are no realistic options (hence the late pursuit of Abreu).

If they're picking up a butcher in the field, the bat better be exceptional. It's clear they are placing a premium on defense, and it's working.

So what do we think? Any names out there we haven't considered?

lollipopcurve
05-14-2009, 01:56 PM
So what do we think? Any names out there we haven't considered?

Ordonez. Big bucks.

Situation Washington. (Kearns, Willingham, maybe Dukes? Milledge) All have warts, Dukes has big upside.

Derosa. Would be nice.

Ben Francisco. Unexciting.

GoReds
05-14-2009, 02:01 PM
Corey Hart, Brewers.

Don't think it would take a bounty to grab him and he's nearing his peak age. Stole 23 bases each of the last two seasons. OPS is 766 this year, but had an 894 OPS a couple of years ago.

OnBaseMachine
05-14-2009, 02:03 PM
I'd look towards the Washington Nationals. I prefer Dukes, but Kearns and Willingham are solid options as well. I like Lastings Milledge too, but he probably wouldn't help too much this season. Kearns and Willingham probably wouldn't cost a whole lot to acquire.

CTA513
05-14-2009, 02:18 PM
I'd look towards the Washington Nationals. I prefer Dukes, but Kearns and Willingham are solid options as well. I like Lastings Milledge too, but he probably wouldn't help too much this season. Kearns and Willingham probably wouldn't cost a whole lot to acquire.

Dukes is the only one I would want out of those 3.
All 3 have had injury problems in the past, but Dukes has the most upside.

thatcoolguy_22
05-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Ryan Spilborghs- crushes LHP to the tune of a .916 OPS over the last 3 years
Nelson Cruz- if the Rangers believe in Andruw Jones or if someone is offered who can throw from the mound...
Ryan Garko- .894 OPS over the last 3 years vs LHP (.767 vs RHP) Been a 1B but the Tribe is starting toi give him OF innings.
Cody Ross- .969 OPS vs LHP from 06-08
Chris Denorfia- well he is right handed and he would be instantly loved by redszoners everywhere again :)
Ben Zobrist- Killling the ball in limited action this year. I just like his last name.


None of these names are very sexy but all could be had very cheaply and provide a solid RH platoon in LF. Dye, Tejada and, Holliday would all be the everyday fielder but a platoon can give quality numbers over a season

BRM
05-14-2009, 02:34 PM
I can't imagine the Rockies would have any interest at all in trading Spilborghs.

Kc61
05-14-2009, 02:59 PM
Dukes is the guy I would target for pitching prospects.

Then I would try to get a lefty or switch hitting shortstop or third baseman to balance out the team, which has too few lefty hitters.

The other alternative is to get a platoon guy, like a Cody Ross, for left field. I thought that was a good suggestion by somebody.

One other alternative is to keep the platoon Nix/Hairston/Dickerson, whatever, in left and pick up Beltre for EE at third. Beltre off slowly this year but can play the position and hit well in the NL. Or wait and see how EE does when he gets back before adding anyone. He's certainly due.

nate
05-14-2009, 03:11 PM
Hypothetical. Where does BP hit if we get this RH bat?

Homer Bailey
05-14-2009, 03:11 PM
Jayson Werth is and has always been my answer. Problem is I don't see a reason for the Phils to give him up, other than he will make $7M next year.

The_jbh
05-14-2009, 03:16 PM
We are probably going to tough it out until atleast mid to late June... then teams will start selling and I'd think there will be better pickings.

I think Dye is an option. CWS will probably be selling
Indians will be selling, maybe derosa
Oakland will be selling Holliday
Rockies may sell murton?
Diamondbacks maybe will sell Byrnes?

BRM
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Hypothetical. Where does BP hit if we get this RH bat?

Depends on which bat is acquired. If it's a true power guy like Dye or Holliday, I would think BP drops to 5th or 6th. Unless Dusty moves him up to 2nd. If they get someone like Werth, I think BP stays in the cleanup slot.

Kc61
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Hypothetical. Where does BP hit if we get this RH bat?

That's the easy question. Middle of the order becomes Votto, RHBat, Bruce, Phillips. Assuming the RHB is a power guy.

Taveras stays at lead off. But then the questions start.

The remaining guys are SS, C and 3B.

If it were me, I'd have Hairston at SS most games and hitting second.

Then EE and Hernandez hit seventh and eighth.

Some might switch EE to second spot and hit Hairston seventh. I could live with that.

If Gonzalez is the shortstop, then presumably EE hits second and plays third, and Hernandez and Gonzalez seventh and eighth. No Hairston.

All these lineups have only two lefty hitters.

Think the Reds could get Stephen Drew for SS? Lefty bat?
Then you might have Taveras, Drew, RHB, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, EE, Hernandez, with Hairston in reserve. Not too shabby.

TRF
05-14-2009, 03:19 PM
The Rangers are not going to give Cruz away. he's cheap and home grown. Jones on the other hand was dumpster diving at it's finest. I was really wanting the Reds to get him.

You won't find that RH bat in Pittsburgh, KC or TB. He's not in Florida. He's not in AZ, SD or SF.

Cleveland, Wash, LA maybe. Detroit is a possibility.

nate
05-14-2009, 03:31 PM
That's the easy question. Middle of the order becomes Votto, RHBat, Bruce, Phillips. Assuming the RHB is a power guy.

Taveras stays at lead off. But then the questions start.

See, I kind of think BP should hit 2nd. So:

WT
BP
Votto
Big RH
Bruce
EE
Ramon
Janish
Pitcher

Even if BP gets into that "GB to SS" funk, he might be able to work the count enough to Willy is on second, thus preventing the DP. If he keeps going like he has been...well, who cares? He'll get batted in by Votto, et al.


Think the Reds could get Stephen Drew for SS? Lefty bat?
Then you might have Taveras, Drew, RHB, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, EE, Hernandez, with Hairston in reserve. Not too shabby.Not too shabby. I don't know what the price would be. Drew seems like the kind of dude you'd want to hold on to.

Reds1
05-14-2009, 03:38 PM
I'm not so sure EE gets the start everyday and I certainly would never bat him 2nd. Also, whoever has Hariston not playing is wrong. Our record over 2 years with him in there is great. He needs to be somewhere. I I see a platoon type of RH hitter with some pop, but not a full time stud.

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 03:45 PM
The obvious one is Matt Holliday. I think this is tough because Billy Beane isn't going to give him up for anything less than a king's ransom, even though Holliday has struggled. He is one of the few GMs who will let Holliday walk and consider the draft picks adequate compensation. So that's a tough deal to make, although Holliday would be a great fit.

Other names suggested:

Jermaine Dye
Miguel Tejada
Andruw Jones
Jayson Werth

These are the types of bats I would want. If the Reds are going to make a move I want an impact bat. I want a bat that is going to be a substantial upgrade over what the Reds currently have. If the Reds are going to go out and get a RH bat, the RH bat needs to take over a position. I don't want to see the Reds give up anything of substance in order to acquirer a player who is going to play solely when a LHP is pitching.

Dye, Tejada (trading within division), Jones, and Holliday are potential impact bats. With Votto's emergence if the Reds add a RH hitter to go in between Votto and Bruce this lineup could be very dangerous.

pahster
05-14-2009, 03:45 PM
Corey Hart, Brewers.

Don't think it would take a bounty to grab him and he's nearing his peak age. Stole 23 bases each of the last two seasons. OPS is 766 this year, but had an 894 OPS a couple of years ago.

Good power, lousy on base ability. No thanks.

osuceltic
05-14-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm not so sure EE gets the start everyday and I certainly would never bat him 2nd. Also, whoever has Hariston not playing is wrong. Our record over 2 years with him in there is great. He needs to be somewhere. I I see a platoon type of RH hitter with some pop, but not a full time stud.

Jocketty's history is he'll go for the stud if that guy is available. Let's hope he is.

I'm with you on Hairston. Stick him at SS and keep him in the lineup until he breaks down. But Dusty isn't going to do that. My ideal lineup the second half of the season:

WT
JHJ
JV
Big RH bat
JB
BP
RH
AR
Pitcher

That's a deep lineup.

LvJ
05-14-2009, 03:52 PM
Bring Kearns back! :D

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 03:53 PM
I mentioned this in another thread but I would pursue Felipe Lopez. IMO he is a better player than Hariston Jr., is younger, and would be ideal to hit in the 2 hole. Once he got out of Washington he has seemed to get his career back on track. He would be ideal to have on the roster as the season progresses and injuries begin to happen. He probably would come cheap and would be a huge asset to this Reds team, especially if he performs like he did in 05 with the Reds.

CaiGuy
05-14-2009, 03:55 PM
I mentioned this in another thread but I would pursue Felipe Lopez. IMO he is a better player than Hariston Jr., is younger, and would be ideal to hit in the 2 hole. Once he got out of Washington he has seemed to get his career back on track. He would be ideal to have on the roster as the season progresses and injuries begin to happen. He probably would come cheap and would be a huge asset to this Reds team, especially if he performs like he did in 05 with the Reds.

Where would you play him? He is terrible with the glove.

CTA513
05-14-2009, 03:56 PM
I mentioned this in another thread but I would pursue Felipe Lopez. IMO he is a better player than Hariston Jr., is younger, and would be ideal to hit in the 2 hole. Once he got out of Washington he has seemed to get his career back on track. He would be ideal to have on the roster as the season progresses and injuries begin to happen. He probably would come cheap and would be a huge asset to this Reds team, especially if he performs like he did in 05 with the Reds.

Lopez lazy play doesn't fit what the Reds are trying to do.

*BaseClogger*
05-14-2009, 03:56 PM
My ideal lineup the second half of the season:

WT
JHJ
JV
Big RH bat
JB
BP
RH
AR
Pitcher

That's a deep lineup.

That is your ideal lineup? As in, ideally you wouldn't want EE to become that RH bat?

LoganBuck
05-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Holliday currently has a BABip of .269 for his career he has sat in the .330-.370 range

Holliday is not a shoe in for Type A status if he doesn't pick it up. His 2008 while good can't carry a bad 2009 to Type A. Beane would be better off to take what he can get, if Holliday doesn't get going. I don't know if I would want him even at a discount. His struggle dates back to last year.

Andrew Jones has a babip of .369 Yikes!

BuckeyeRedleg
05-14-2009, 04:14 PM
Scott Hairston, San Diego.

How about EE, Bailey, and Alonso for Peavy and Hairston?

San Diego will be selling.

LoganBuck
05-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Scott Hairston, San Diego.

How about EE, Bailey, and Alonso for Peavy and Hairston?

San Diego will be selling.

You probably need to add Owings at least to even be in the conversation.

Chip R
05-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Scott Hairston, San Diego.

How about EE, Bailey, and Alonso for Peavy and Hairston?

San Diego will be selling.


Why in the world would SD want Alonso when they already have Gonzalez?

membengal
05-14-2009, 04:21 PM
Money? Is Gonzalez about to get expensive?

LINEDRIVER
05-14-2009, 04:28 PM
I watch a lot of baseball on TV and have watched many Nationals games over the last few weeks because I enjoy watching good hitters like Ryan Zimmerman, Christian Guzman, and Nick Johnson. As far as Dukes is concerned, I'd say that Dukes looks to be lazy and his OF play leaves much to be desired. I've watched guys go to second base on balls hits up the middle because Dukes is also lazy at charging balls and throwing the ball back to the infield ASAP. First time I saw it was when Diaz of the Braves hit a ten-hopper up the middle and Dukes was snoozing and waited for the ball to come to him. Diaz saw this happening and kicked it into gear and coasted into 2B. Even the Braves announcers were critical of Dukes for snoozing that bad. (That reminds me of when I watched Chipper Jones hit a ball down the RF line that Dunn jogged after before he lobbed the ball back to the infield. Jones took advantage of the lob toss and went to third for a triple)

Anyway, I'm all for keeping the Reds' mental and physical energy level UP.

You can see what happens with energizers like Taveras, Hairston, and Rosales in the lineup and causing havoc for the opposition.

UP, UP, UP....so, IMO, that should exclude low energy guys like Dukes or Kearns from joining this ballclub.

.

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Where would you play him? He is terrible with the glove.

I would play him at 3b, LF, RF, spell BP at 2b. Use him the same way LaRussa used him in St. Louis last season. He is a poor SS but I think he could help the Reds being a utility player.

TRF
05-14-2009, 04:34 PM
I would play him at 3b, LF, RF, spell BP at 2b. Use him the same way LaRussa used him in St. Louis last season. He is a poor SS but I think he could help the Reds being a utility player.

Hairston and Rosales are utility players. How many do the Reds need? And I am actually a fan of Lopez.

Now if BP were to move to SS, Lopez at 2B makes sense.

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 04:47 PM
Hairston and Rosales are utility players. How many do the Reds need? And I am actually a fan of Lopez.

Now if BP were to move to SS, Lopez at 2B makes sense.

IMO Lopez is better than both Rosales and Hariston. The issue becomes is the Reds are currently wasting a roster spot on McDonald. There is no reason that McDonald should be taking up another roster spot. I would be interested in Lopez for insurance as the season goes along. Odds are against Hariston staying healthy for the entire season. You could use Hariston as your 4th outfielder and back up SS while using Lopez to play 3b while also spelling BP at second and getting a spot start at 1b if Votto needs a rest. His bat intrigues me, especially a guy who has gone .291/.352/.486 before in Cincinnati. IMO he could be had for very little and he would make much more sense to the Reds than Darnell McDonald.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-14-2009, 04:53 PM
Why in the world would SD want Alonso when they already have Gonzalez?

I thought that too, but then I thought they could stick Alonso in LF and when Gonzalez gets expensive (which he will) in 2011, they have the flexibilty to move him to 1B.

As mentioned in another thread, A. Gonzo's contract:

'07: 500k
'08: 750k
'09: 3M
'10: 4.75M
'11: club option 5.5M

Dude will be looking to break the bank (to make up for playing for pennies the past few years) and San Diego's little window is pretty much offiically closed. Their next run (whenever that is) will be without A. Gonzo.

osuceltic
05-14-2009, 04:55 PM
That is your ideal lineup? As in, ideally you wouldn't want EE to become that RH bat?

Sure, and I'd like a pony, too. I just see no signs of EE being that kind of guy. None. I wanted Willie Green to be a stud, too. We can't always get what we want.

bucksfan2
05-14-2009, 05:48 PM
I thought that too, but then I thought they could stick Alonso in LF and when Gonzalez gets expensive (which he will) in 2011, they have the flexibilty to move him to 1B.

If you could stick Alonso in LF then the Reds won't get rid of him. IMO the problem is that Alonso is a 1B or DH and right now the Reds have a rising star at 1b.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-14-2009, 06:29 PM
If you could stick Alonso in LF then the Reds won't get rid of him. IMO the problem is that Alonso is a 1B or DH and right now the Reds have a rising star at 1b.

That was the point. To trade him for Peavy. Sure, he's not a LFer but there was worse places for him to play. Point being, he could eventually take over for Adrian Gonzalez.

M2
05-14-2009, 06:45 PM
A lot of the names listed so far play for teams that are more likely to be buyers than sellers.

Here's a list of clubs that probably will be selling:

Nationals
Astros
Pirates
Rockies
Padres
Diamondbacks
Orioles
Indians
Mariners
A's

The Indians came into the season with high hopes, so they might wait until July before making a decision. The A's have a +4 run differential so Billy Beane may also wait to if his crew can find its legs. On top of that the AL Central and AL West don't have any worldbeaters at the top of the division, which means the clubs at the bottom don't need to panic.

Anyway, if the Reds are buying, those are the teams likely to be selling.

Reds1
05-14-2009, 08:00 PM
That is your ideal lineup? As in, ideally you wouldn't want EE to become that RH bat?

I think he's agreeing with me that EE is not a starter. I don't miss him one bit. I'd love to see him in a trade.

Raisor
05-14-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm still stumpafied why it HAS to be a "RHB".

Ltlabner
05-14-2009, 08:50 PM
I'm still stumpafied why it HAS to be a "RHB".

It's on Page 17 of "The Big Book of Baseball Knowledge".

Duh.

LvJ
05-14-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm still stumpafied why it HAS to be a "RHB". It doesn't have to be, but you know it will be.

What does everyone think of Melvin Mora in LF? He's off to a slow start and may be able to be had cheaply. However, would he be an upgrade?

Mario-Rijo
05-14-2009, 09:41 PM
I have been badieng hi sname around so I might as well add it to this list. Scott Hairston and as someone else mentioned in this thread I also like Matt Murton who is rotting away on the Rockies bench. Conor Jackson is another one, although right now don't know what his issues are. None of them overwhelming however all would improve us just to slightly different extents. Adrian Beltre is also one I'd be interested in attaining as I'm sure many would be but he will cost us more/better prospects and more money obviosuly. However he is one of few who could really give us a significant upgrade all the way around. Add EE to that deal for all I care at this point and it helps balance out the $$$'s and prospects sent.

Will M
05-14-2009, 09:50 PM
The Reds have one stud bat (Votto).
Bruce crushes RHP & struggles vs LHP.
Phillips crushes LHP & struggles vs RHP.
The Reds currently have a lot of guys hitting well who are not middle of the order hitters. The suspicion is that we need one more big bat to really make some noise circa playoff time.

Matt Murton?
Scott Hairston??
Felipe Lopez???

If the Reds are in contention come July I want Walt to make the BIG trade. Find a team who is selling who has a guy in his prime they want to move (usually for salary relief). If the Reds have to give up a lot it can't be a rental. Walt traded for McGwire, Edmonds & Mulder (who then got hurt) as the Cards GM. This is the kind of deal I want to see.

Will M
05-14-2009, 09:53 PM
One more thing: the current reds are playing well, having fun & hustling. the last thing we need is some kind of clubhouse cancer. I don't want to see any Manny Ramirez types. I don't care what his OPS is.

reds44
05-14-2009, 09:55 PM
Lopez lazy play doesn't fit what the Reds are trying to do.
Lopez vs. LHP:
.302/.388/.465/.853
Lopez vs. RHP:
.326/.376/.500/.876

He can fill in at 2B, SS, 3B, and LF. Is he great at any position? No, but he's certainly no worse than the current 3rd baseman we have. With that being said, I think EE will step right back and produce at 3B, but Lopez could still fill in at any position.

A guy I would target would be somebody like Chris Young of the Diamondbacks. Huge upside, but he has fallen out of favor a bit in Arizona. Kind of reminds me of Brandon Phillips.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-14-2009, 10:04 PM
Scott Hairston has a Ryan Ludwick late-bloomer bust out look about him.

His numbers have been solid every step of the way.

Mario-Rijo
05-14-2009, 10:10 PM
The Reds have one stud bat (Votto).
Bruce crushes RHP & struggles vs LHP.
Phillips crushes LHP & struggles vs RHP.
The Reds currently have a lot of guys hitting well who are not middle of the order hitters. The suspicion is that we need one more big bat to really make some noise circa playoff time.

Matt Murton?
Scott Hairston??
Felipe Lopez???

If the Reds are in contention come July I want Walt to make the BIG trade. Find a team who is selling who has a guy in his prime they want to move (usually for salary relief). If the Reds have to give up a lot it can't be a rental. Walt traded for McGwire, Edmonds & Mulder (who then got hurt) as the Cards GM. This is the kind of deal I want to see.

I just doubt it happens, take a whack at one of many obvious reasons if you like but a BIG bat is unlikely. Doesn't mean I don't want one but my post just reflects my stance of hey if we aren't gonna get that big bat let's get players who fit us well and will give us some degree of improvement and not cost us a ton in return.

But I wouldn't sell Scott Hairston short he isn't his brother he has quite a bit more power. He's had 34 EXBH (17 HR's) in his last 235 PA's in Petco park alone, that's over last year and this year. On the road over that same span 23 EXBH's (10 HR's) in 216 PA's. For a grand total of 57 EXBH's (27 HR's) in 451 PA's. Vs. LHP's he had an .896 OPS (152 PA's) in '08 and in '09 so far a 1.209 OPS (42 PA's). And he will fit right into this clubhouse if he is anything like his brother and I think he probably is quite a bit like him.

Will M
05-14-2009, 10:43 PM
I just doubt it happens, take a whack at one of many obvious reasons if you like but a BIG bat is unlikely. Doesn't mean I don't want one but my post just reflects my stance of hey if we aren't gonna get that big bat let's get players who fit us well and will give us some degree of improvement and not cost us a ton in return.



I understand.

One thing I don't want the Reds to do is to pay a lot for some 'impact bat' that really isn't that much better than we have in house.

P.S. #1 remember EE will be back at some point. I highly doubt he is moved to LF mid season. If Rosales is still playing well we will have some competition at 3b. Rosales's versatility could come into play.

P.S. #2 get Gomes up here to play LF vs RHP. why McDonald is still on the team is a bit of a head scratcher. Lets see what Gomes can do with the bat & what he can & can't do with the glove.

P.S. #3 - someone mentioned JJ Hardy. I think shortstop is the one position the Reds could really improve the team. EE or Rosales can play 3B. We can cobble together a decent LF platoon with Nix-Dickerson/Hairston-Gomes.
If the Reds could somehow add a SS who can hit that would be huge!

Homer Bailey
05-14-2009, 11:29 PM
A guy I would target would be somebody like Chris Young of the Diamondbacks. Huge upside, but he has fallen out of favor a bit in Arizona. Kind of reminds me of Brandon Phillips.

For this do you want him?

09:$1.75M,
10:$3.25M,
11:$5M,
12:$7M,
13:$8.5M,
14:$11M club option

Blitz Dorsey
05-15-2009, 02:29 AM
I'd look towards the Washington Nationals. I prefer Dukes, but Kearns and Willingham are solid options as well. I like Lastings Milledge too, but he probably wouldn't help too much this season. Kearns and Willingham probably wouldn't cost a whole lot to acquire.

Not picking on you and I like almost all your posts, but why would Kearns be a solid option? He has proven to be pretty terrible in Washington.

Blitz Dorsey
05-15-2009, 02:36 AM
BTW, I'm sure there's others on here who caught this, but Jocketty was in the booth for 2 innings during one of the games against the Cardinals last weekend and he was asked if the Reds would look to acquire a right-handed bat via trade if they were still in the race near the trading deadline.

His response?

"Absolutely."

Not "maybe" or "probably" but "absolutely." I am pretty confident Walt will be able to get something done here. He's the guy that got Ramon Hernandez for Ryan Freel.

*BaseClogger*
05-15-2009, 03:45 AM
Sure, and I'd like a pony, too. I just see no signs of EE being that kind of guy. None. I wanted Willie Green to be a stud, too. We can't always get what we want.

Stop dancing around semantics. Ideally you would get a 900 OPS out of EE AND your pony...

OnBaseMachine
05-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Not picking on you and I like almost all your posts, but why would Kearns be a solid option? He has proven to be pretty terrible in Washington.

Because he has an .818 OPS despite having a low BABIP and playing half his games in Washington. He's also a solid defender. He wouldn't be the best option but if he can be had cheaply, he's an upgrade over what we have platooning vs LHP. I'd much rather go after a guy like Dukes but I'm not sure if the Nats would trade him.

Kc61
05-15-2009, 12:12 PM
Because he has an .818 OPS despite having a low BABIP and playing half his games in Washington. He's also a solid defender. He wouldn't be the best option but if he can be had cheaply, he's an upgrade over what we have platooning vs LHP. I'd much rather go after a guy like Dukes but I'm not sure if the Nats would trade him.


I don't see Walt wanting Kearns except as a righty platoon, and he makes way too much money to be a platoon player. And while Kearns may be a solid defender, he isn't fast and Walt seems to want speedier outfielders when possible. Kearns just doesn't seem to be a fit IMO.

There are a number of considerations concerning current Reds and the LF situation. How will Nix do, or Dickerson, as the lefty platoon? If they do well, then maybe a platoon guy is needed.

Will there be an infield spot for Hairston? I know about his baseball card but as a Red he has been a positive player. If there's no infield spot, then maybe less chance Walt brings in a LF from the outside.

Will EE hit when he returns? If he hits and Phillips hits, then maybe there will be enough righty power for this year.

The other question is the trade status of the two most obvious candidates -- Holliday and Dye. Will they be on the market and at what price?

These would seem to be the considerations.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 12:15 PM
We've been conditioned for years to think small with the Reds and hope to get lucky (Phillips, Hamilton, Harang, Arroyo). So when we talk about adding a big RH cleanup hitter, we get names like Willingham, Hairston, Lopez and Kearns. I hope Walt hasn't been converted to that way of thinking.

If you're in contention, you're trying to win a World Series. None of those guys are going to bump Phillips from the 4-hole. They're not going to push this team over the top. If we're going to go for it, let's go for it.

nate
05-15-2009, 01:12 PM
If you're in contention, you're trying to win a World Series. None of those guys are going to bump Phillips from the 4-hole. They're not going to push this team over the top. If we're going to go for it, let's go for it.

We may have found something we agree on!

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 01:35 PM
We may have found something we agree on!

:beerme:

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 01:42 PM
If we're going to go for it, let's go for it.

Easier said than done. Who's the target? IMO, that's the biggest question. Everybody wants that big bat and the one that gets mentioned the most is Holliday (and Dye). I like Holliday, but his numbers got quite the lift from Coors IIRC. But either one of them will require quite a bit and neither look to be sure things. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of dealing off a bunch of prospects for the 35 year old Dye. Considering the fact that I just don't see a clear cut option...I'll leave my hope with Walt making the right choice.

redsfan4445
05-15-2009, 01:45 PM
how about either Cantu or Cody Ross from the Marlins??? im still blown away why the Reds released Cantu!! but he has proven he can play big time with the Marlins!!

Edwin and half his contract and a prospect for Cody or Cantu??

BRM
05-15-2009, 01:46 PM
Cantu's defense at 3B would have people longing to have Edwin back.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 01:49 PM
I think Nick Swisher is still one of the most intriguing names thrown out there.

BRM
05-15-2009, 02:11 PM
I think Nick Swisher is still one of the most intriguing names thrown out there.

And I would think there is almost no chance the Yankees would trade him. He's not all that expensive IIRC.

bucksfan2
05-15-2009, 02:50 PM
Easier said than done. Who's the target? IMO, that's the biggest question. Everybody wants that big bat and the one that gets mentioned the most is Holliday (and Dye). I like Holliday, but his numbers got quite the lift from Coors IIRC. But either one of them will require quite a bit and neither look to be sure things. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of dealing off a bunch of prospects for the 35 year old Dye. Considering the fact that I just don't see a clear cut option...I'll leave my hope with Walt making the right choice.

Actually it is a little easier than you may think it is. If you looking for a platoon player, he likely isn't the answer. If you looking at a marginal upgrade guy, he likely isn't the answer. Getting a guy like Hariston, Kearns, Willingham, etc. who have been mentioned in this thread, may be nice, but aren't going to put this team over the top. They will cost more money, provide a marginal upgrade over a RH bat already in the system, and play solely against LHP.

If the Reds are serious about adding a bat then they need to add a bat. I have no idea where this trade market will start or where it will go come July. Some big names will be moved for salary relief for non contending clubs. If the Reds only moves are to add a platoon RH bat for left field I will be very disappointed. I would rather them stand pat then give up anything of value, and add money, for a platoon player.

M2
05-15-2009, 02:51 PM
And I would think there is almost no chance the Yankees would trade him. He's not all that expensive IIRC.

And teams with an eye on contending tend not to trade away their most productive hitters.

BRM
05-15-2009, 02:53 PM
And teams with an eye on contending tend not to trade away their most productive hitters.

I can't see them dealing him even if they fall completely out of the race.

nate
05-15-2009, 03:19 PM
Actually it is a little easier than you may think it is. If you looking for a platoon player, he likely isn't the answer. If you looking at a marginal upgrade guy, he likely isn't the answer. Getting a guy like Hariston, Kearns, Willingham, etc. who have been mentioned in this thread, may be nice, but aren't going to put this team over the top. They will cost more money, provide a marginal upgrade over a RH bat already in the system, and play solely against LHP.

If the Reds are serious about adding a bat then they need to add a bat. I have no idea where this trade market will start or where it will go come July. Some big names will be moved for salary relief for non contending clubs. If the Reds only moves are to add a platoon RH bat for left field I will be very disappointed. I would rather them stand pat then give up anything of value, and add money, for a platoon player.

Yeah, we already have platoon players. We need an un-platoon player.

LoganBuck
05-15-2009, 03:41 PM
Yeah, we already have platoon players. We need an un-platoon player.

I heard this guy can catch. He had problems with his teammates, when he wore the green though.
http://mytimetoshine45.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/10102604atom-berenger-platoon-posters2.jpg

CaiGuy
05-15-2009, 04:11 PM
I completely agree that it would be great to get a add legitimate bat to start but who fits all of your criteria (right handed, good in the clubhouse, attainable, decent defense)?

Remember that a completing team isn't going to trade a superstar (especially to a team competing in the same division) and if a team does they are probably going to demand some cheap quality players from the major league roster (ie. Cueto, Volquez, Bruce, ect). A team isn't going trade for a mix of the Reds least favorite prospects and overpaid veterans.

All OF's in MLB with .900 ops or more:


Name Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Manny Ramírez LAD 27 92 22 32 9 0 6 20 26 17 0 0 .348 .492 .641 1.133
Adam Jones BAL 32 127 35 47 12 1 8 26 10 25 3 2 .370 .426 .669 1.095
Jason Bay BOS 35 122 30 38 9 1 10 38 28 33 4 0 .311 .444 .648 1.092
Adam Dunn WAS 33 116 19 36 5 0 11 28 28 33 0 1 .310 .444 .638 1.082
Brad Hawpe COL 29 98 17 35 11 1 5 28 14 18 0 1 .357 .435 .643 1.078
Raúl Ibañez PHI 32 122 26 41 9 1 10 26 13 21 3 0 .336 .403 .672 1.075
Carlos Beltrán NYM 34 132 23 49 8 1 6 25 22 23 5 1 .371 .465 .583 1.048
Kosuke Fukudome CHC 30 106 22 36 9 1 4 17 24 21 4 4 .340 .462 .557 1.019
Ryan Braun MIL 33 121 22 39 7 0 8 28 20 29 3 3 .322 .438 .579 1.017
Torii Hunter LAA 33 122 27 39 8 1 9 27 13 17 5 2 .320 .384 .623 1.007
Johnny Damon NYY 32 132 27 42 9 2 9 26 14 22 3 0 .318 .385 .621 1.006
Nick Markakis BAL 35 136 34 47 13 0 6 33 17 16 1 1 .346 .420 .574 .994
Mike Cameron MIL 32 115 19 35 11 0 7 19 20 23 2 0 .304 .404 .583 .987
Justin Upton ARI 32 108 21 33 7 1 7 18 14 31 3 1 .306 .390 .583 .974
Nick Swisher NYY 33 109 22 27 9 1 8 22 22 35 0 0 .248 .381 .569 .949
Jason Kubel MIN 32 114 19 38 11 1 5 20 7 18 0 0 .333 .369 .579 .948
Adam Lind TOR 35 137 21 44 12 0 6 31 19 27 0 0 .321 .404 .540 .944
Jayson Werth PHI 31 111 27 32 8 1 6 21 17 27 7 1 .288 .394 .541 .934
Carlos Lee HOU 35 131 18 43 10 0 7 28 10 13 1 1 .328 .368 .565 .933
Hunter Pence HOU 35 126 20 42 8 1 4 15 17 17 5 2 .333 .407 .508 .915
Alfonso Soriano CHC 33 140 30 38 9 0 11 23 13 35 4 2 .271 .340 .571 .911

Ltlabner
05-15-2009, 04:17 PM
http://mytimetoshine45.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/10102604atom-berenger-platoon-posters2.jpg

Bad team chemistry there.

Guacarock
05-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Some say do or die, but my battle cry is Dunn or Dye. Doesn't matter to me if one's LH and the other RH. We just need another bopper to join Votto and Phillips in the heart of the order.

Dye probably makes the most sense for a variety of reasons, but if the CWS are wanting an arm and a leg in trade for the 35-year-old, then we should turn to the Nationals as a dance partner. They are clearly overstocked with outfielders, and Dunn's signed to a reasonable $8 million this season and $12 million for 2010. We shouldn't have let him go in the first place.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 04:45 PM
Some say do or die, but my battle cry is Dunn or Dye. Doesn't matter to me if one's LH and the other RH. We just need another bopper to join Votto and Phillips in the heart of the order.

Dye probably makes the most sense for a variety of reasons, but if the CWS are wanting an arm and a leg in trade for the 35-year-old, then we should turn to the Nationals as a dance partner. They are clearly overstocked with outfielders, and Dunn's signed to a reasonable $8 million this season and $12 million for 2010. We shouldn't have let him go in the first place.

Dunn will not be returning. Whether you agree or not, Walt believed this team needed a culture change and part of that was shipping out Dunn. He isn't bringing him back. No way, no how.

Dye makes a ton of sense. We know both teams had interest in the offseason. I could see that heating up again.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 05:17 PM
Dunn will not be returning. Whether you agree or not, Walt believed this team needed a culture change and part of that was shipping out Dunn. He isn't bringing him back. No way, no how.

Dye makes a ton of sense. We know both teams had interest in the offseason. I could see that heating up again.

I agree with this...I'm just a bit leary of what we'd have to part with to get an aging Dye.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 05:24 PM
I agree with this...I'm just a bit leary of what we'd have to part with to get an aging Dye.

A full season of him would have taken a devalued Homer Bailey. A half-season isn't going to net a spit-shined Homer. I'm thinking something involving one or more of Maloney/Thompson/Roenicke/Francisco -- that group. I'd be willing to do something like that.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 05:46 PM
Well, we're simply not going to agree on this one I'd say osuceltic. Because I think Homer has found it and he'll be a VERY valuable pitcher in the very near future. And worth a HECK of a lot more than a year (or two) of Dye.

Maloney & Roenicke...I think Roenicke is our future closer and Maloney is one of the few left-handed starters with some solid upside that we've got. I'd be hesitant to deal either of those two. Thompson & Francisco...and some ML chafe....I'd go for that. But the White Sox won't. It'll take more. Considerably more I'm afraid.

jojo
05-15-2009, 06:04 PM
Well, we're simply not going to agree on this one I'd say osuceltic. Because I think Homer has found it and he'll be a VERY valuable pitcher in the very near future. And worth a HECK of a lot more than a year (or two) of Dye.

Maloney & Roenicke...I think Roenicke is our future closer and Maloney is one of the few left-handed starters with some solid upside that we've got. I'd be hesitant to deal either of those two. Thompson & Francisco...and some ML chafe....I'd go for that. But the White Sox won't. It'll take more. Considerably more I'm afraid.

Homer is posting a FIP=5.45 in his THIRD stint at Louisville (He's posted 217 innings at Louisville during his career). Homer is still an interesting arm but we're getting to the point where very valuable is turning into problematic because his option issue is going to limit, well, the Reds options.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 06:14 PM
Those first two outings this year with the Bats strike me as emotional pouting (and no, I'm not pleased with that if that's what it was). Since then, he's been pretty damned good. And regardless of his stats, he's still quite young. He just turned 23 for crying out loud. Even if he turned out to be a middle of the rotation type of starter, I still think that's more valuable than one year of Dye. Just my opinion of course. I probably put a higher value on pitching & defense than others here do.

~edit~ Okay, I just looked up "FIP" to see exactly what that stat was (I'd heard of it...but didn't know the formula).

FIP=(HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP

Okay, is it just me, or is this a stupid stat? It doesn't take singles, doubles or triples into account? That's idiotic IMO. I see that they're trying to take fielding out of the equation, but a large majority of singles, doubles & triples aren't even affected by fielding at all. Sometimes I think they make up these stats just so they've got something to do. This one baffles me. And where do they get the "13", "3" and "2" for that formula? LOL. It's just weird.

RedsManRick
05-15-2009, 06:25 PM
Those first two outings this year with the Bats strike me as emotional pouting (and no, I'm not pleased with that if that's what it was). Since then, he's been pretty damned good. And regardless of his stats, he's still quite young. He just turned 23 for crying out loud. Even if he turned out to be a middle of the rotation type of starter, I still think that's more valuable than one year of Dye. Just my opinion of course. I probably put a higher value on pitching & defense than others here do.

~edit~ Okay, I just looked up "FIP" to see exactly what that stat was (I'd heard of it...but didn't know the formula).

FIP=(HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP

Okay, is it just me, or is this a stupid stat? It doesn't take singles, doubles or triples into account? That's idiotic IMO. I see that they're trying to take fielding out of the equation, but a large majority of singles, doubles & triples aren't even affected by fielding at all. Sometimes I think they make up these stats just so they've got something to do. This one baffles me.

Setting aside the particulars, you should know that FIP is a better predictor of future ERA than is current ERA.

But the reality of pitching is that what differentiates one pitcher from next are the rates at which they allow HR, give up walks, and strike guys out. Once the ball gets put in play (and stays in the yard) pitchers tend to be pretty similar. Over time, pitchers tend to allow the more or less the same rates of singles, doubles, and triples as a portion of those balls in play. There certainly is variation -- some pitchers allow more/fewer grounders for some -- it tends to come out in the wash.

At the end of the day, looking at HR, BB, and K gives you a pretty darn good estimate for what a guy's ERA is likely to regress towards moving forward.

Kc61
05-15-2009, 06:34 PM
Setting aside the particulars, you should know that FIP is a better predictor of future ERA than is current ERA.

But the reality of pitching is that what differentiates one pitcher from next are the rates at which they allow HR, give up walks, and strike guys out. Once the ball gets put in play (and stays in the yard) pitchers tend to be pretty similar. Over time, pitchers tend to allow the more or less the same rates of singles, doubles, and triples as a portion of those balls in play. There certainly is variation -- some pitchers allow more/fewer grounders for some -- it tends to come out in the wash.

At the end of the day, looking at HR, BB, and K gives you a pretty darn good estimate for what a guy's ERA is likely to regress towards moving forward.


I tend to agree, except that there is a "make up" element to pitching that also counts for something. Sometimes two pitchers with the same K, HR, and BB rate may differ in results - because one knows how to limit damage with men on base and the other doesn't. I guess it's a timeliness point, perhaps a "clutch" point.

Without checking stats, IMO, the Reds have had a few pitchers over the years who got into trouble a fair amount but were very good at minimizing damage. Arroyo is like that. Pete Harnisch was another.

Other pitchers would get into trouble and more often allow the floodgates to open.

osuceltic
05-15-2009, 06:39 PM
Well, we're simply not going to agree on this one I'd say osuceltic. Because I think Homer has found it and he'll be a VERY valuable pitcher in the very near future. And worth a HECK of a lot more than a year (or two) of Dye.

Maloney & Roenicke...I think Roenicke is our future closer and Maloney is one of the few left-handed starters with some solid upside that we've got. I'd be hesitant to deal either of those two. Thompson & Francisco...and some ML chafe....I'd go for that. But the White Sox won't. It'll take more. Considerably more I'm afraid.

My point was that I don't think Homer for Dye is fair anymore. In the offseason, yes. Now? No. Homer is more valuable and Dye is less valuable (because you only get a half-season of him this season). So I think we do agree -- Homer for Dye is too much.

The guys I mentioned I see as pretty solid value for the White Sox in exchange for a half season of Dye. But they aren't franchise guys by any stretch. Maloney seems like an back-end starter at best and Roenicke may or may not be closer material. Thompson and Francisco have their own warts, but they have talent.

Sure, we might get burned, but that's the nature of trading. We're not just trading for the three months of production we'd get. We're also trading for a better shot at a World Series championship, and if you win a championship then whatever price you paid is worth it.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 06:39 PM
Setting aside the particulars, you should know that FIP is a better predictor of future ERA than is current ERA.

But the reality of pitching is that what differentiates one pitcher from next are the rates at which they allow HR, give up walks, and strike guys out. Once the ball gets put in play (and stays in the yard) pitchers tend to be pretty similar. Over time, pitchers tend to allow the more or less the same rates of singles, doubles, and triples as a portion of those balls in play. There certainly is variation -- some pitchers allow more/fewer grounders for some -- it tends to come out in the wash.

At the end of the day, looking at HR, BB, and K gives you a pretty darn good estimate for what a guy's ERA is likely to regress towards moving forward.

Okay. I'll take your word for it. I still think it's a dumb stat. There are lots of things it doesn't take into account and it really doesn't tell us much that several other stats don't already do...and in a less confusing manner.

If the goal is to create one stat that quantifies a pitcher, I can understand the thought behind the stat. But it still doesn't quantify a pitcher well enough if that's the purpose. You need a LOT more data...and we've already got it in the other numerous stats out there. I'd rather just look at more than one number I guess.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2009, 06:43 PM
My point was that I don't think Homer for Dye is fair anymore. In the offseason, yes. Now? No. Homer is more valuable and Dye is less valuable (because you only get a half-season of him this season). So I think we do agree -- Homer for Dye is too much.

The guys I mentioned I see as pretty solid value for the White Sox in exchange for a half season of Dye. But they aren't franchise guys by any stretch. Maloney seems like an back-end starter at best and Roenicke may or may not be closer material. Thompson and Francisco have their own warts, but they have talent.

Sure, we might get burned, but that's the nature of trading. We're not just trading for the three months of production we'd get. We're also trading for a better shot at a World Series championship, and if you win a championship then whatever price you paid is worth it.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I guess we do agree. I think I forsee more out of Maloney & Roenicke than you then. There are plenty of others we could use though. I'm just not sure what the palehose would demand. I'm thinking it'll be quite a bit.

thatcoolguy_22
05-15-2009, 07:57 PM
July 29, 2002

3B Scott Rolen and minor league pitcher Doug Nickle traded to the Cardinals for 3B Placido Polanco, P Mike Timlin and, P Bud Smith.

"Rolen had been the subject of trade rumors since rejecting a 10-year contract extension last November that could've been worth up to $140 million. He signed an $8.6 million, one-year deal in January, but made it clear he wanted to become a free agent after this season."
from here (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/07/29/rolen_trade_ap/)


Rolen later signed an eight-year, $90 million contract on September 27, 2002 with the St Louis Cardinals.


We all know WJ was the GM at this time and this story is similar to Mark McGwire and Jim Edmonds going to St. Louis.


What does that have to do with anything???


Matt Holliday

Holiday is a free agent at the end of this year and is a legitimate .900 OPS bat. The problem is dealing with once Vunderkid Billy Beane. He knows the value of the 2 supplemental draft picks awarded when Holliday declines arbitration. So not only will the Reds be trading for 2-3 months of Hollidays service but also out pay for the supp picks. At this point Castellini will have to overwhelm the 29 year old Holliday to sign a LTC and stay with in the Reds control.


What would you offer Beane for 2 months and a chance to negotiate with Matt Holliday?





Sidenote: I'm tired of talking about upgrading our "platoon" in LF when we have Gomes in AAA. The amount of AB's that the RH portion of the platoon will pick up for the rest of the season is minimal. Gomes is the answer. He is free and Mcdonald is garbage. Lets talk REAL improvement!