PDA

View Full Version : Hernandez and Hanigan



WVPacman
05-14-2009, 11:32 PM
Its early but what I have seen from these two guys so far is simply amazing.They're hitting the ball really good coming up with clutch hits during this hot streak and both are playing great defense so far.LOL Ramon looks like a gold glove winner at first when he has to play there.Hanigan I feel is making a name for himself atleast with the Reds with the playing time that he is getting.He is going out there every chance he gets and plays his butt off along with Hernandez.

Right now the reds front office looks smart for trading for Hernandez and bringing Haningan up to be the back up.These two guys have done everything that they have been asked to do so far and I think we could'nt ask for anything better than these two guys.Hernandez plays like the vet he is and Hanigan shows alot of promise.The way they handle the Reds pitchers and keep them calm is the most important and are one of the main reasons why the pitching has been so good so far.

Keep it up guys!!!!!!!!:beerme:

Big Klu
05-15-2009, 03:59 AM
I agree 100%. I thought at the end of last season that Hanigan could handle himself behind the plate, but a team needs two good catchers, and if the Reds could go out and find someone who could make Hanigan the #2 catcher, then it would solidify the position for the first time in years. Hernandez has done just that. The catching position is now a strength on this club.

Ltlabner
05-15-2009, 07:17 AM
I've been thinking the same thing, and was toying with doing a thread about it myself. I was looking at the numbers to confirm my impressions. I was surprised by the results. Unless I am interpreting these numbers totally incorrectly, in the first 6 weeks of the season Hernandez/Hannigan aren't really producing at the plate at rates that different than their predecessors


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2009 Ryan Hanigan 48 .245 .362 .333 0.0833 0.27083 0.64583 0.041
2009 Ramon Hernandez 117 .239 .339 .346 0.0769 0.24786 0.66667 -0.015


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2008 David Ross 173 .267 .381 .366 0.1850 0.17919 0.62428 0.114
2008 Ryan Hanigan 98 .260 .367 .365 0.1020 0.23469 0.60204 0.119
2008 Paul Bako 338 .217 .299 .328 0.1006 0.19231 0.68935 -0.092


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2007 Javier Valentin 265 .242 .328 .387 0.0717 0.25283 0.66792 0.095
2007 David Ross 348 .223 .271 .399 0.0862 0.18103 0.72414 -0.036
2007 Chad Moeller 49 .101 .167 .250 0.0000 0.16327 0.79592 -0.455.

Since we're comparing 6 weeks to 162 games I used rate stats as a comparison. I was really surprised, I thought they would be heads and shoulders above the dreck that has been back there in recent years. Their hit rates are better, so maybe that is part of why they appear to be doing better?

Now that said, I have no doubt Hernandez is going to continue to warm up and end up the season somewhere closer to these numbers:


Year NAME PA EqA OBP SLG OUTR VORP RAR RAP
2008 Ramon Hernandez 507 .252 .308 .406 0.68047 8.2 11.2 -0.9
2007 Ramon Hernandez 409 .244 .333 .382 0.66259 7.4 5.8 -0.1

I've posted a different set of numbers here, but trust me, they are better than anything David Ross, Javy V (sorry Chip), Paul Bako or Chad Moeller ever did in comparable numbers. Plus he's playing in the NL now, should get a boost from being new to the league and plays in GABP for 1/2 his games.

Hernandez seems to work well with our Latin pitchers which is a plus, but Ross seemed to get along with some of the pitchers also. I don't remember anything being said about Bako but nobody seemed particularly in love with Javy. I won't get into defense since it's such a gray area, but in general Hernandez does *seem* more solid behind the dish. His work filling in at 1B has been admirable.

Hannigan appears to be poised to give us a couple years of passable backup backstop duty. That's got value in itself.

I can't put my finger on why I feel they are an improvement over previous regimes. So far it isn't the offense. Working with the pitchers gives mixed results and defense is such a "feel" thing it's not really clear cut either.

Maybe it's that we have one legitimately decent catcher with a suitable backup instead of trying to juggle a three headed monster of meh for the first time in a while? Maybe it's the *reasonable* hope that by the end of the year they will outperform the other guys who needed divine intervention? Perhaps it's just a classic example of how a couple of good weeks can skew your impressions and make you forget the slow prior weeks?

PuffyPig
05-15-2009, 08:14 AM
People forget that Ross and Valentin could actually hit to a certain degree.

It was their defence that made most cringe.

jojo
05-15-2009, 09:12 AM
I've been thinking the same thing, and was toying with doing a thread about it myself. I was looking at the numbers to confirm my impressions. I was surprised by the results. Unless I am interpreting these numbers totally incorrectly, in the first 6 weeks of the season Hernandez/Hannigan aren't really producing at the plate at rates that different than their predecessors

They aren't. To this point Ramon has been a below average bat (wOBA=.312). Over 600 PA's that would translate into being -10 runs below average with the bat. It was his bat that was supposed to be the stimulus for the Reds RS.

It's early. We'll see. But his wOBA thus far is almost exactly what he has done the last two seasons in Baltimore.


I can't put my finger on why I feel they are an improvement over previous regimes.

Six shutouts makes everything look improved. Also Hanigan is a true defensive upgrade.

Chip R
05-15-2009, 09:19 AM
Trade Votto!

Just kidding. ;)

Vada Pinson Fan
05-15-2009, 09:32 AM
Winning will cause that deception, lol. :) Hernandez seems to me to be doing his part offensively when needed most- in rallies and 2 out hits and what the above numbers point out is (from a career observation) he will get better and I look forward to that.

In Joey Votto's absence, Ramon and Hannigan have done a fine job defensively! Really fun to see this collection of Reds players making the plays, getting timely hits and terrific productions from Taveras (never thought I would say that :) ) and Hairston at the igniting,top of the order. And as Brandon Phillips so accurately put it: "The Reds have their swag" [working].

This month of May has been exciting. Yep, winning changes the perception of what we see into what we think we see and I see Hernandez and Hannigan doing just fine!

Jerry/Vada Pinson Fan

IslandRed
05-15-2009, 01:57 PM
Since we're comparing 6 weeks to 162 games I used rate stats as a comparison. I was really surprised, I thought they would be heads and shoulders above the dreck that has been back there in recent years. Their hit rates are better, so maybe that is part of why they appear to be doing better?

I think that's it. Last year, Bako was awful, Valentin wasn't much better and rarely caught anyway, Hanigan came up late and Ross... well, you look at it, Ross didn't really hit much last year. He had a nice OBP with a much-higher-than-career-normal walk rate, and if you asked me, it probably occurred to him that walks were there for the taking batting #8 in front of our execrable-hitting pitchers, as he usually did. That didn't lead to much except propping up the team LOB number, though. But Hernandez and Hanigan are usually hitting #7 or higher and are delivering their fair share of key hits.

TheNext44
05-15-2009, 03:23 PM
I've been thinking the same thing, and was toying with doing a thread about it myself. I was looking at the numbers to confirm my impressions. I was surprised by the results. Unless I am interpreting these numbers totally incorrectly, in the first 6 weeks of the season Hernandez/Hannigan aren't really producing at the plate at rates that different than their predecessors


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2009 Ryan Hanigan 48 .245 .362 .333 0.0833 0.27083 0.64583 0.041
2009 Ramon Hernandez 117 .239 .339 .346 0.0769 0.24786 0.66667 -0.015


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2008 David Ross 173 .267 .381 .366 0.1850 0.17919 0.62428 0.114
2008 Ryan Hanigan 98 .260 .367 .365 0.1020 0.23469 0.60204 0.119
2008 Paul Bako 338 .217 .299 .328 0.1006 0.19231 0.68935 -0.092


YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr
2007 Javier Valentin 265 .242 .328 .387 0.0717 0.25283 0.66792 0.095
2007 David Ross 348 .223 .271 .399 0.0862 0.18103 0.72414 -0.036
2007 Chad Moeller 49 .101 .167 .250 0.0000 0.16327 0.79592 -0.455.

Since we're comparing 6 weeks to 162 games I used rate stats as a comparison. I was really surprised, I thought they would be heads and shoulders above the dreck that has been back there in recent years. Their hit rates are better, so maybe that is part of why they appear to be doing better?

Now that said, I have no doubt Hernandez is going to continue to warm up and end up the season somewhere closer to these numbers:


Year NAME PA EqA OBP SLG OUTR VORP RAR RAP
2008 Ramon Hernandez 507 .252 .308 .406 0.68047 8.2 11.2 -0.9
2007 Ramon Hernandez 409 .244 .333 .382 0.66259 7.4 5.8 -0.1

I've posted a different set of numbers here, but trust me, they are better than anything David Ross, Javy V (sorry Chip), Paul Bako or Chad Moeller ever did in comparable numbers. Plus he's playing in the NL now, should get a boost from being new to the league and plays in GABP for 1/2 his games.

Hernandez seems to work well with our Latin pitchers which is a plus, but Ross seemed to get along with some of the pitchers also. I don't remember anything being said about Bako but nobody seemed particularly in love with Javy. I won't get into defense since it's such a gray area, but in general Hernandez does *seem* more solid behind the dish. His work filling in at 1B has been admirable.

Hannigan appears to be poised to give us a couple years of passable backup backstop duty. That's got value in itself.

I can't put my finger on why I feel they are an improvement over previous regimes. So far it isn't the offense. Working with the pitchers gives mixed results and defense is such a "feel" thing it's not really clear cut either.

Maybe it's that we have one legitimately decent catcher with a suitable backup instead of trying to juggle a three headed monster of meh for the first time in a while? Maybe it's the *reasonable* hope that by the end of the year they will outperform the other guys who needed divine intervention? Perhaps it's just a classic example of how a couple of good weeks can skew your impressions and make you forget the slow prior weeks?


First, these numbers only tell half the story, and since catching is the most important defensive position, even if the Reds catcher's offense stayed the same, but their defense improved, that would make it a huge upgrade over last year.

Defense might be a "feel" thing, but just because one can't put a number on it does not mean that one can not make a rational judgment about it. Hanigan is definitely a big upgrade over last year, very obvious, he throws out runners, he blocks the plate, he handles pitchers well. There may not be numbers that back it up, but it would be very difficlut not to notice the difference between Hanigan and anyone else the Reds have had behind the plate the last few years.

And I think Hernandez is too, but to a lesser degree. What I notice with him is that the catcher is back to being the captain of the infield. That has a big effect on the defense as a whole, and the pitching staff. This definitely is a "feel" thing, but I think most people can feel it. Hernandez has been a strong, stabilizing force for the defense this year.

Second, these numbers are really just more proof that you can't make solid judgments based on just six weeks of stats. Here is why Reds fans feel better about their catching situation offensively.

Hernandez:

Last 28 days - .309 .374 .395 .769
Men on Base - .333 .420 .405 .825
Late & Close - .412 .474 .588 1.062
High Leverage - .333 .348 .476 .824

Hernandez is hitting better lately, and that's what fans remember. Also, it looks like he has settled in and this past month is more reflective of his true skill than the first few weeks. I think it is the opposite of "it's just a classic example of how a couple of good weeks can skew your impressions and make you forget the slow prior weeks." It's more like an example of how a bad 12 day start: .205 .255 .295 .551, can drag down overall numbers when the season is only 6 weeks old. (He's .333 .397 .383 .780 from the 12th game on.)

I expect him to have numbers very close to his career numbers at the end of the season.

He also has been doing well in clutch situations. Whether you believe that clutch exists or not, those numbers will definitely give a fan the impression that the player is producing. I know I tend to forget the hits with two outs and no one on in the 7th inning of a blowout, but I sure have no problem remembering hits that drive in runs in close games.

Hanigan:

Has hit safely in 9 of his 11 starts.
He is hitting .285 and has a .388 OBP. It really is just his slugging that is low. For a back up catcher, that is more than acceptable.

Ltlabner
05-15-2009, 03:40 PM
Defense might be a "feel" thing, but just because one can't put a number on it does not mean that one can not make a rational judgment about it.

I didn't say you can't make a judgment about it and in fact, made a judgment when I said Hernandez *seems* more solid back there. I just didn't want to spend a bunch of time on it since it's such an interpretive thing. Without a real reliable way to measure defense you run into "yes he is/no he isn't" arguments with no end.


What I notice with him is that the catcher is back to being the captain of the infield.

That may very well be and is an interesting point. Do you care to elaborate with some examples?

In addition to your observation, there's something to be said for having pseudo-defined roles of primary and backup catcher instead of "catching by committee". The committee didn't work in Narron's bullpens and didn't seem to work during the three headed monster catching days either.

How much that helps is a whole different ball of wax. It's partly an intangible thing of knowing your role. But also, I think it avoids the manager trying to be clever and make the decision on who plays based on small sample sizes, hunches and other general nonsense.


Second, these numbers are really just more proof that you can't make solid judgments based on just six weeks of stats.

Which is why I used rate stats and noted that we're comparing 6 weeks to 162 games.


I expect him to have numbers very close to his career numbers at the end of the season.

I agree and stated so. The league change and GABP boost can't hurt.

TheNext44
05-15-2009, 05:08 PM
I didn't say you can't make a judgment about it and in fact, made a judgment when I said Hernandez *seems* more solid back there. I just didn't want to spend a bunch of time on it since it's such an interpretive thing. Without a real reliable way to measure defense you run into "yes he is/no he isn't" arguments with no end.



That may very well be and is an interesting point. Do you care to elaborate with some examples?

In addition to your observation, there's something to be said for having pseudo-defined roles of primary and backup catcher instead of "catching by committee". The committee didn't work in Narron's bullpens and didn't seem to work during the three headed monster catching days either.

How much that helps is a whole different ball of wax. It's partly an intangible thing of knowing your role. But also, I think it avoids the manager trying to be clever and make the decision on who plays based on small sample sizes, hunches and other general nonsense.



Which is why I used rate stats and noted that we're comparing 6 weeks to 162 games.



I agree and stated so. The league change and GABP boost can't hurt.

I actually agree with you on this, sorry if my post came across any other way.

You did a nice job showing that the actual production from the catching crew this year is around the same as last year. You wondered why many fans felt like there was an upgrade.

I was just trying to show why fans who just watched the games would conclude that the production from the catching squad improved this year over last year. Mainly, it was because the defense was better, and Hernandez was hitting better lately, and had many memorable hits.

The only thing I disagreed with you about, was the notion that this was an example of a few good stats making overall bad stats look better than they were. I thought it was the opposite, a few bad stats making good stats look bad overall. Pretty much semantics, and not much to argue about.

Otherwise, nice post! :thumbup:

Ltlabner
05-15-2009, 05:27 PM
I actually agree with you on this, sorry if my post came across any other way.

The only way it came across was as a conversation, I didn't take your reply as an argument.

I was interested most in your comment that the catchers position had resumed being the field general. Do you have examples of this or is it more of a vibe thing? Because I tend to agree with you but haven't seen as many games as I'd like to be able to give examples.

nate
05-15-2009, 06:04 PM
The only way it came across was as a conversation, I didn't take your reply as an argument.

I was interested most in your comment that the catchers position had resumed being the field general. Do you have examples of this or is it more of a vibe thing? Because I tend to agree with you but haven't seen as many games as I'd like to be able to give examples.

I agree with the field general thing.

But only because I saw Ramon smoking a pipe between innings.

:cool:

Mario-Rijo
05-15-2009, 06:21 PM
The only way it came across was as a conversation, I didn't take your reply as an argument.

I was interested most in your comment that the catchers position had resumed being the field general. Do you have examples of this or is it more of a vibe thing? Because I tend to agree with you but haven't seen as many games as I'd like to be able to give examples.

I tend to think of it as a vibe thing. When you watch him Ramon he is so intense you just get the feeling like he is in charge of the entire IF. I think that dynamic changes a bit with certain but few pitchers Arroyo and Rhodes mostly.

At any rate I think you hit the nail on the head somewhat with the hit rate (also sample size issue as well). The fact that they haven't gone into long streaks of unproductivity helps paint a good picture. Although Ramon has had such a streak people tend to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the circumstances right now. My guess is at the end of the season (and probably right now really) people will be ok with what he gave us and would be willing to re-sign him to a cheaper price if it were not for his option. People will thank him for doing a solid job and be ready to move on to Hanigan and preferably a LH platoon mate. The money is better spent elsewhere next season I think.

Miguel Montero still sits at the top of my list of platoon mates, despite his pitchers not helping him much he had a decent enough arm and his hitting is better than what he showed in that series. I still cannot figure out why the D-Backs didn't use Montero in the Arroyo game, must have been a battery based decision.

TheNext44
05-16-2009, 02:45 PM
The only way it came across was as a conversation, I didn't take your reply as an argument.

I was interested most in your comment that the catchers position had resumed being the field general. Do you have examples of this or is it more of a vibe thing? Because I tend to agree with you but haven't seen as many games as I'd like to be able to give examples.

The most tangible effect that I have seen of Hernandez being the field general, has been the difference between Volquez and Cueto in their first few starts and now. Obviously they are more effective, but it seems that one reason why is that they are pitching at a much quicker pace. They seem to have more confidence in their stuff, and rarely shake off Hernandez.

Just speculating here, but I think that comes from Hernandez letting them know that he is in charge, and that they need to follow his lead. It probably took him a few games to get that through to them.

Last year, I felt like I was watching the Keystone Kops, whenever there was a bunt, or some sort of infield play involving guys moving around a lot, or even in just guys getting into position to field a throw from the outfield.

That has been a huge improvement this year. In fact, I can't recall any play where players were not where they were supposed to be, or not knowing where to go. Probalbly has been a few, but not enough to remember. That's the result of a catcher ruling the infield with an iron fist.

Those are just my observations, I could wrong. But I do like what I see.

Raisor
05-16-2009, 02:52 PM
The most tangible effect that I have seen of Hernandez being the field general, has been the difference between Volquez and Cueto in their first few starts and now. Obviously they are more effective, but it seems that one reason why is that they are pitching at a much quicker pace. They seem to have more confidence in their stuff, and rarely shake off Hernandez.



Except Hernandez isn't calling the game, Dick Pole and Dusty are.

TheNext44
05-16-2009, 03:03 PM
Except Hernandez isn't calling the game, Dick Pole and Dusty are.

I'm not referring to the pitch selection, I'm referring to the relationship between Hernandez and his pitchers. He seems to have them believing in their stuff, which makes them want to get the ball, pitch and not think too much. It has less to do with whether they agree or disagree with the pitch selection and more to do with the confidence they have to throw every pitch with authority.

Again, this is just speculation, I have no idea what is going inside their minds, but I do see them changing their approach.

remdog
05-16-2009, 03:07 PM
I posted an observation in a thread last year where I said, if you take a casual fan to a Reds game, by the 5th or 6th inning, they will tell you that the Reds weakest position was catcher. It was that easy to see.

I also posited that one of the best and fastest ways to improve your team was to improve your weakest position. IMO, that's what the Reds have done and it's a major factor in the Reds improved record.

Will RHsquared hold up? I don't know. (famous shrug) But, to this point, they've provided better defense and better hitting than the trio of '08. A major step forward for the Reds, so far, in '09.

Rem

Ron Madden
05-18-2009, 03:23 AM
As of today Ramon Hernandez' OBP is just two points lower than Willie Taveras'.

:)

WVPacman
05-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Wow the production that the reds is getting from the catchers as of today is absolutly amazing.Hernandez is knocking the cover off the ball and playing solid defense throwing out runners like its nothing.Hanigan when called on he to goes in there and produces and I still am excited about our catching duo.

Ron Madden
05-26-2009, 12:06 AM
I like the way Hernandez continues to get on base. :thumbup:

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2009, 12:12 AM
So far this season, Reds catchers have combined to hit .299/.366/.403 - .768 in 154 atbats. The .366 OBP is the fifth best in the major leagues at the catcher position and the .768 OPS is the 11th best in the majors. Last season Reds catchers combined for a .681 OPS. Not to mention the defense behind the plate is better this year too.

fearofpopvol1
05-26-2009, 12:16 AM
And Ramon does fantastic at 1B when he's had to fill in for Votto too. The catching situation is no longer the issue for the Reds. At least this year.

WVPacman
05-26-2009, 12:36 AM
I knew he was going to help us win games by making the pitchers better but the hitting and the defense has surprised me alot.I think we all can agree that trading for Hernandez was a no brainer and im glad they pulled the trigger to get this guy b/c he is a good catcher.:thumbup:

tripleaaaron
05-26-2009, 01:38 AM
I knew he was going to help us win games by making the pitchers better but the hitting and the defense has surprised me alot.I think we all can agree that trading for Hernandez was a no brainer and im glad they pulled the trigger to get this guy b/c he is a good catcher.:thumbup:

I agree completely. We have several Freels that are cheaper and more productive. To be able to swap him for a big upgrade at our weakest link is probably the main reason that we are still hanging around. Hernandez has played tremendously defensively both behind the plate and filling in at 1B and his bat has been a tremendous upgrade over the previous regime of Catchers.

Ltlabner
06-04-2009, 06:00 PM
NAME PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr RAP
Ryan Hanigan 90 .285 .416 .408 0.1333 0.27778 0.57778 0.283 2.5
Ryan Hanigan 48 .245 .362 .333 0.0833 0.27083 0.64583 0.041

PA EqA OBP SLG BB Rate HITR OUTR VORPr RAP
Ramon Hernandez 189 .254 .348 .377 0.0900 0.24868 0.65608 0.062 -2.8
Ramon Hernandez 117 .239 .339 .346 0.0769 0.24786 0.66667 -0.015

A quick update on Hanigan and Hernandez. Their rate numbers are dramatically improved over their slow starts. The numbers on the bottom are from the earlier post.

They have been doing very well and it's good to see the improvement behind the plate over previous years.