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buckeyenut
05-17-2009, 08:05 AM
OK, once again, we go to San Diego and have an extra inning game where Dusty is forced to use one of his starting pitchers as a reliever for an extended stint. The question is, did Dusty learn anything from last year when he did it with Harang and ruined him for rest of year?

As the rotation currently falls, we'd see Arroyo today, Owings Tuesday in PHI and Cueto Wednesday. Do you think we'll see Owings on Tuesday? Do we skip over him for a turn and run Cueto out there, moving everyone up a day (not too bad with off day in there Monday)? Do we simply swap Cueto and Owings giving Micah another day's rest, but leave everyone else on the same schedule? Do we do something else entirely, like bring Homer up to start a game in his place?

What would you do if you were Dusty?

Degenerate39
05-17-2009, 08:19 AM
I guess they'll have to put Masset on the DL and bring Homer up. I wish San Diego would just go to the AL or something so the Reds wouldn't play them anymore. Nothing good comes from playing them.

redsmetz
05-17-2009, 08:26 AM
This has been mentioned elsewhere, but Dusty had made clear that Owings would be available in a relief role since his spot was being skipped.

lollipopcurve
05-17-2009, 08:35 AM
1. Not a fan of skipping the #5 when he's pitching well. Give everybody an extra day.

2. Carry a long man in the pen. If it's Masset, use him as one. If it's someone else, get him on the roster.

3. Owings shouldn't be throwing another full game on 3 days' rest. He's coming off a year with a bad shoulder.

4. Why hasn't Masset been disabled? What is with this team's aversion to using the disabled list? By my count, that makes at least 2 games in which the manager's hands were tied by having a short roster.

Kc61
05-17-2009, 09:22 AM
Dusty did exactly the right thing last night.

This was very different from last year with Harang.

He took a pitcher on three days' rest and gave him, essentially, a starting game during the relief innings.

He didn't use any starter on two days rest like last year.

Now, Dusty needs to pitch Owings only after a full four days rest. He has an off-day Monday, he can do this. Last year the Harang thing would have been OK if Dusty adjusted the rotation to give him more rest after the SD outing.

I don't like keeping a designated long man because he seldom pitches and most nights you have only an 11 man staff. I do believe in relievers who can throw 3 innings if necessary. Massett can do that.

I don't agree with waiting before DL'ing Massett. The Reds should have had another reliever last night, but likely would have had to use Owings anyway.

Now the Reds definitely need to bring in some reinforcements from AAA.

My one criticism isn't about Dusty. It's that the Rhodes/Weathers eighth inning tandem hasn't been effective lately. Particularly Weathers. But last night I saw Weathers' inning and he was squeezed to the point where it was justs about impossible for him to pitch effectively.

PuffyPig
05-17-2009, 09:22 AM
We can skip Owings, and everyone will get 4 days rest before their next start. Not a big deal.

kbrake
05-17-2009, 09:27 AM
My issue is not that he brought Owings in it is that he stuck with him long after it was obvious to everyone that he was running out of gas. I'd rather watch Cordero blow it in one inning of a non save situation than watch Owings arm fall off. After Cordero you could have always gone to Janish if need be.

jojo
05-17-2009, 09:30 AM
I'd rather watch Cordero save Weathers' bacon in the 8th.... This one should've belonged the the Reds long before Owings.

Kc61
05-17-2009, 09:35 AM
My issue is not that he brought Owings in it is that he stuck with him long after it was obvious to everyone that he was running out of gas. I'd rather watch Cordero blow it in one inning of a non save situation than watch Owings arm fall off. After Cordero you could have always gone to Janish if need be.

I see that folks said this on the game thread. I disagree, I would have handled it as Dusty did.

What if you pull Owings, then Cordero pitches two good innings? Then you start parading position players. First Janish. If still tied, do you throw Ryan Hanigan at that point? Maybe Hairston gets an inning. That's not the way to manage a competitive baseball game.

It's not a joke asking regular players to pitch during competitive games. It's an invitation to injury and also comes very near forfeit. The Reds players would not be happy with the team throwing position players in a competitive game. These guys played a bunch of competitive innings, you don't basically forfeit the game by pitching position players in that spot.

Dusty handled it correctly. Owings didn't throw 120 pitches, it was a normal starting outing on three days rest. Why is that a problem?

Only thing they need to do is have the rotation set up now as Arroyo, day off, Cueto, Harang. Then, either Volquez or Owings on Thursday depending on Volquez health. Either would have four days off. Neither Volquez nor Owings should pitch before Thursday.

paulrichjr
05-17-2009, 10:03 AM
If you watched the game last night you would know that number 1 Weathers threw pretty well. The ump was HORRIBLE. I counted at least 3 times Weathers put someone away only to get the pitch called a ball. His pitches had some really good late movement on them that the ump just wasn't seeing. Also, I have no idea how Dusty could have done this any different. He had already stated that Micah would be used out of the bullpen in the long roll. If he brings him back to pitch on 2 or 3 days rest we have a problem but right now I would say YES Dusty learned something.

marcshoe
05-17-2009, 10:04 AM
Or what's worse, instead of sending out position players they could have ended up with a situation like Volquez was put into last year.

No problem with the way Owings was used last night/this morning.

lollipopcurve
05-17-2009, 10:46 AM
In my opinion, Owings should be pitching on normal/extra rest, like the rest of the rotation, and there should have been a long man in the pen for the disabled Masset. That's roster management and some of that falls on Jocketty.

The night before, Baker said he needed to find a way to get Cordero and Weathers more work. Yet, no Cordero last night.

Starting with the San Diego game last year, I have been suspicious of Baker's (and Pole's) ability to manage a staff. I think this shows up quickly when they hit irregularities -- long games, injuries. I don't like the lack of a long man, the predilection for skipping Owings, the sequestering of save chances for 1 pitcher and 1 pitcher only, and the lock-step usage of Rhodes-Weathers-Cordero in games in which the Reds are ahead. Roles are good -- very good -- but they needn't be adhered to 100% of the time over a 162 game schedule, because teams run hot and cold and end up playing ahead a lot for stretches at a time, and behind in stretches. There needs to be a bit more flexibility and foresight. It seems to me Baker locks into a strategy for managing his staff and then stops thinking about it.

I know all this sounds like whining given the huge leap forward this staff has made as a whole. But I still wonder how well they're going to hold up over the course of the long season. 126 games to go.

Team Clark
05-17-2009, 10:49 AM
There is no way that I can blame Dusty for last night's loss. He used the bullpen just as he should have. I hear people complain but rarely, if ever, do I hear a solution. Your long guy is hurt and Owings is your best option. He pitched well until he got tired. Ok, well he's human after all. If you're going to blame anyone, blame the offense for not doing their job to win the game. In case anyone hasn't noticed...baseball is not an exact science and losses do occur despite your best effort.

VR
05-17-2009, 10:58 AM
I was thrilled to see Owings was used as he was last night.

I went to be after 9.....apparently 3 innings later than the Reds bats did. How do you go 10 scoreless innings against that bullpen with 2 hits?

lollipopcurve
05-17-2009, 11:02 AM
How do you go 10 scoreless innings against that bullpen with 2 hits?

I think some guys are dragging. Baker talks about interchangeable parts, but he doesn't really manage that way.

_Sir_Charles_
05-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Even bad bullpens have good nights guys. And good bullpens, like ours, have rough nights. That was the first blown save all year for the reds. Hard to complain about that too much. We were the only team in baseball without one before last night. That's a stat I haven't heard much mention of here surprisingly enough.

Kc61
05-17-2009, 11:07 AM
With all the focus on Dusty's use of pitchers, the plain fact is that in Miami and now in SD the Reds went through a 14 inning game and a 16 inning game and were unable to score a run in extras. The team was impatient offensively last night with a very small strike zone. In the eighth inning, SD batters were extremely patient and drew all those walks, leading to runs.

I know they got five runs, but the Reds seemed to have no chance to score in the extra innings I watched. I agree with those who felt the game was over as soon as it went to extras because the Reds would not score.

They have to be more than a one man offense. Votto isn't quite right yet, others need to step up.

mth123
05-17-2009, 11:07 AM
Nothing wrong with Owings being used last night. I would have probably brought in Cordero for a couple innings first, but Owings going 80+ pitches is no problem as long as he gets proper rest before his next outing.

Speaking of his next outing, he and Volquez now have the same cycle since they pitched on the same day. Maybe since Volquez left with an injury, he'll be skipped or pushed back and Owings will take Volquez next turn. It would seem pretty logical to me. Arroyo, Off day, Harang, Cueto, Owings on 4 days rest, Arroyo and then Volquez if he's ready.

lollipopcurve
05-17-2009, 11:10 AM
and then Volquez if he's ready.

And there's the rub. What if he isn't ready?

mth123
05-17-2009, 11:11 AM
And there's the rub. What if he isn't ready?

Then DL him and bring up a kid. Homer, Maloney or Ramirez who is pitching well right now.

Team Clark
05-17-2009, 11:19 AM
I think some guys are dragging. Baker talks about interchangeable parts, but he doesn't really manage that way.

That I agree with. This team is capable of hitting as long as Dusty let's it. :)

RedsManRick
05-17-2009, 11:19 AM
Last night wasn't bad, but jojo raised the biggest issue in my book. The game was on the line in the eighth. Use Cordero to shut the door there instead of saving him for a save situation that never materialized and the rest of this conversation is moot.

LvJ
05-17-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm sorry but I'm no fan of Dusty Baker, but he did nothing wrong last night.

Simply put, the bats went to sleep. The offense lost this game. If you let THAT bullpenv shut you out for 10 innings, then you aren't going to win the game. Period. The only person who was having good at bats late in the game was Nix. It seemed like everyone else just wanted to get it over with.

Volquez gets hurt in the 6th. Not Dusty's fault.

Rhodes gives up his first run of the year. Not Dusty's fault.

Weathers wasn't great and I was LISTENING to the game, so I don't know how close those pitches were, but none the less, he's been money all year - Not Dusty's fault.

I agree with skipping Micah in the rotation because he is the #5 and we have two days off out here. What is wrong with that? Nothing. Owings did a great job, and deserves a lot of credit.

I don't believe you can blame Dusty at all for that game.

LvJ
05-17-2009, 11:28 AM
Last night wasn't bad, but jojo raised the biggest issue in my book. The game was on the line in the eighth. Use Cordero to shut the door there instead of saving him for a save situation that never materialized and the rest of this conversation is moot. He is your closer, but he is not lights out. Is bringing Cordero in the game with runners on base really the smart thing to do? If Dusty did as much, and Cordero gives up his walk and hit like he does everytime he pitches, everyone on this board would be complaining that he was brought in.

Kc61
05-17-2009, 11:36 AM
Last night wasn't bad, but jojo raised the biggest issue in my book. The game was on the line in the eighth. Use Cordero to shut the door there instead of saving him for a save situation that never materialized and the rest of this conversation is moot.

Well, Rhodes was pitching to Adrian Gonzalez because of lefty-lefty. He walked Gonzalez. You could have gone to Cordero then, but if so who throws the ninth? Cordero could go two innings but then you'd better win because Coco might be gassed for today's game.

I really don't think the loss was Dusty's fault at all. You can blame Weathers for not adjusting to the strike zone of the umpire, I guess, but some of those calls were just hard to understand.

I'd like to see Burton get some chances in the eighth inning. He seems to be throwing better now and Weathers hasn't been too effective in the last few outings. Weathers is a good reliever, but he can be hittable in stretches of games.

The key stats to look at for last night are Taveras and Hairston, the tablesetters. I believe they reached base once between them, a Hairston double which led to a run. I think that their inability to get on base last night made it harder for the Reds to put the Padres away.

Big Klu
05-17-2009, 11:47 AM
Dusty did exactly the right thing last night.

This was very different from last year with Harang.

He took a pitcher on three days' rest and gave him, essentially, a starting game during the relief innings.

He didn't use any starter on two days rest like last year.

Now, Dusty needs to pitch Owings only after a full four days rest. He has an off-day Monday, he can do this. Last year the Harang thing would have been OK if Dusty adjusted the rotation to give him more rest after the SD outing.

I don't like keeping a designated long man because he seldom pitches and most nights you have only an 11 man staff. I do believe in relievers who can throw 3 innings if necessary. Massett can do that.

I don't agree with waiting before DL'ing Massett. The Reds should have had another reliever last night, but likely would have had to use Owings anyway.

Now the Reds definitely need to bring in some reinforcements from AAA.

My one criticism isn't about Dusty. It's that the Rhodes/Weathers eighth inning tandem hasn't been effective lately. Particularly Weathers. But last night I saw Weathers' inning and he was squeezed to the point where it was justs about impossible for him to pitch effectively.

I agree with just about everything you have said here. The only thing I would like to comment on is that even if the Reds had put Masset on the DL, they still would have likely been a man short in the bullpen, because of the logistics of trying to get a man from Louisville to San Diego on short notice. Even if the player makes it on time, he probably would be ineffective due to the long flight. They also have to make sure that his uniforms and equipment get there, too.

Oh, one other thing...I would prefer an 11-man pitching staff to begin with, but I know that isn't going to happen.

jojo
05-17-2009, 12:40 PM
He is your closer, but he is not lights out. Is bringing Cordero in the game with runners on base really the smart thing to do? If Dusty did as much, and Cordero gives up his walk and hit like he does everytime he pitches, everyone on this board would be complaining that he was brought in.

After the double to Hairston, it's a 5 to 3 ball game with runners on second and third and no outs. Gerut comes to the plate. He's basically a platoon guy whose forte is making hay against righties. He's followed by some righties so Dusty wants a righty on the mound. In theory two balls in play could tie the game despite being outs. Ideally, a strikeout would be huge. Also you know that Headley is on the bench and prefers hitting as a lefty.

Here's Dusty's choices: Cordero (K/9: 9.6; BB: 4.2), Weathers (k/9: 5.97; BB/9=3.9) and Burton (K/9: 6.75; BB/9: 5.2).

Which guy is most likely to prevent contact that could tie the game? It's pretty clear to me. Which guy is least likely to walk a batter? I'd suggest that Weathers certainly doesn't have a significant edge in that department.

Kc61
05-17-2009, 01:36 PM
After the double to Hairston, it's a 5 to 3 ball game with runners on second and third and no outs. Gerut comes to the plate. He's basically a platoon guy whose forte is making hay against righties. He's followed by some righties so Dusty wants a righty on the mound. In theory two balls in play could tie the game despite being outs. Ideally, a strikeout would be huge. Also you know that Headley is on the bench and prefers hitting as a lefty.

Here's Dusty's choices: Cordero (K/9: 9.6; BB: 4.2), Weathers (k/9: 5.97; BB/9=3.9) and Burton (K/9: 6.75; BB/9: 5.2).

Which guy is most likely to prevent contact that could tie the game? It's pretty clear to me. Which guy is least likely to walk a batter? I'd suggest that Weathers certainly doesn't have a significant edge in that department.

I just don't think you can keep changing relief pitchers batter to batter by the situation. Rhodes started the inning, man on first. Weathers came in, second and third. You apparently would have gone for Burton or Cordero right then.

That's three relievers in an inning before anyone is out. That style of managing wears out a bullpen and Dusty resisted it.

I think it's a fair point that Weathers has been having some trouble lately and perhaps, in hindsight, Burton rather than Weathers should have pitched the eighth after Rhodes. But Burton has had his lumps too.

Cordero in the eighth? Then he has to pitch multiple innings with a day game today, that's questionable as well.

Sometimes the problem is with the execution by the players -- or the umpiring -- and not the managing.

Caveat Emperor
05-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Last night wasn't bad, but jojo raised the biggest issue in my book. The game was on the line in the eighth. Use Cordero to shut the door there instead of saving him for a save situation that never materialized and the rest of this conversation is moot.

My biggest issue was, if you're going to bring Owings in to pitch anyway, why not have him pinch hit with 2 on and 2 out instead of Darnell McDonald, a vastly inferior hitter?

jojo
05-17-2009, 01:50 PM
I just don't think you can keep changing relief pitchers batter to batter by the situation. Rhodes started the inning, man on first. Weathers came in, second and third. You apparently would have gone for Burton or Cordero right then.

That's three relievers in an inning before anyone is out. That style of managing wears out a bullpen and Dusty resisted it.

I think it's a fair point that Weathers has been having some trouble lately and perhaps, in hindsight, Burton rather than Weathers should have pitched the eighth after Rhodes. But Burton has had his lumps too.

Cordero in the eighth? Then he has to pitch multiple innings with a day game today, that's questionable as well.

Sometimes the problem is with the execution by the players -- or the umpiring -- and not the managing.

The 8th wasn't on Joyce.

Once the stuff hits the fan, it's time to use your arm with the best stuff. If Dusty was worrying about wearing out the pen, then end the game in regulation. As it stands, the only rested arm is Cordero's.

RedsManRick
05-17-2009, 02:09 PM
My biggest issue was, if you're going to bring Owings in to pitch anyway, why not have him pinch hit with 2 on and 2 out instead of Darnell McDonald, a vastly inferior hitter?

I was wondering the same thing. If he doesn't get a hit, you're going to bring him in anyways. If he does drive in the go ahead run, just leave him in and let him close it out. One of the things we've seen with Dusty is that is appears he factors in player's established "roles" a bit more than perhaps he should... I'm sure he didn't want to risk the chance of Owings getting the hit and then "having to" remove him for Cordero, leaving him with no long man should Cordero blow it.

remdog
05-17-2009, 02:35 PM
I agree with just about everything you have said here. The only thing I would like to comment on is that even if the Reds had put Masset on the DL, they still would have likely been a man short in the bullpen, because of the logistics of trying to get a man from Louisville to San Diego on short notice. Even if the player makes it on time, he probably would be ineffective due to the long flight. They also have to make sure that his uniforms and equipment get there, too.

The Bats were actually in Durham and Norfolk this weekend so it was an even longer trip than from simply L'ville.

I thought Dusty did a good job with what he had. Had Micah not pitched yesterday there was a decent chance that he could have gone into his next start on 7-8 days 'rest'. I don't think that 81 pitches is a big strain and it should keep him in line with pretty much regular starting dates.

I thought Owings did a great job. Too bad he got the loss but, to a large degree, the offense didn't come anywhere near to helping the Reds win this game after the 8th inning.

Rem

TheNext44
05-17-2009, 02:43 PM
Concerning the ump, Joyce last night, I was at the game, sitting behind home plate, seven rows up.

The problem with Joyce was not that he was "tight", but that he was very inconsistent. Throughout the whole game, Padres fans in my section were screaming at him for not being consistent. I kept hearing things like "that was a strike two pitches ago." I was thinking the same thing, and this was way before the 8th. That has to be frustrating to a pitcher in a tight situation, to not know where the ump's strike zone is.

Regardless, JoJo and RedsManRick are 100% about Cordero. That was the highest leverage situation the Reds would be in all game, that is when you use your best pitcher, especially when he is a high K guy. This obsession with saving your closer for the 9th is ruining the game.

WVPacman
05-18-2009, 12:49 AM
I don't blame Dusty at all but do wish that he would do one thing different.When he brings in a left handed pitcher to face a left handed batter and vise versa with the righties I think he should leave the pitcher in longer than just one batter.Don't get me wrong those moves would work in a nine inning game but I feel he should keep in mind every game that the game could go into 16-18 innings and we might need those pitchers down the road in a extra inning game.

I could see matching leftie vs leftie or rightie vs rightie if the batter is a power hitter or if he has a hight batting averege...but other than that I think matching leftie vs leftie or vise versa is way over blown.Send out there the pitcher that you think would cause the hitter more trouble and hope he gets him out then leave him in there.

GAC
05-18-2009, 07:36 AM
Hey! I'm the anti-Dusty; but overall I don't think the guy has done a bad job this year.

The only thing that pees me off about the guy is his heavy-handed emphasis on taking the bat out of some guy's hands, when we get a guy on base, by having them bunt so much to get the runner into scoring position. It's like he's always playing for that one run regardless of how many outs he has to give up to get it.

Jpup
05-18-2009, 07:39 AM
I did not see anything wrong with the umpiring. He was tight, but the pitches Weathers was complaining about were all balls. Joyce called a good game IMO.

The only thing things that I would have done different was bring in Cordero in the 8th. If he can't pitch 2 innings, he needs to be traded. Dusty was saving him for a save that means nothing. If he was going to bring Owings in, he should let him hit instead of McDonald. Both are likely outs, but you are wasting another player by using McDonald. He's a waste or roster space anyway. I'm also not sure why Janish was used instead. He can, at least, make contact. McDonald can't hit period.

The answer is no, Dusty hasn't learned anything. Jocketty should have to explain why he doesn't want to put players on the DL. We hear about all these great young players in Louisville and Carolina, but they sure don't want them on the Reds for some reason.

bucksfan2
05-18-2009, 09:27 AM
I did not see anything wrong with the umpiring. He was tight, but the pitches Weathers was complaining about were all balls. Joyce called a good game IMO.

The only thing things that I would have done different was bring in Cordero in the 8th. If he can't pitch 2 innings, he needs to be traded. Dusty was saving him for a save that means nothing. If he was going to bring Owings in, he should let him hit instead of McDonald. Both are likely outs, but you are wasting another player by using McDonald. He's a waste or roster space anyway. I'm also not sure why Janish was used instead. He can, at least, make contact. McDonald can't hit period.

The answer is no, Dusty hasn't learned anything. Jocketty should have to explain why he doesn't want to put players on the DL. We hear about all these great young players in Louisville and Carolina, but they sure don't want them on the Reds for some reason.

Early in the game Thom and Brantley were talking about how Joyce was not a pitchers ump. He said both the hitters and pitchers knew that. There really isn't anything to complain about except his style.

I think its rather simple as to why Jocketty hasn't made a move yet. Masset is going on the DL but calling up a player while on the west coast is a little more unpractical. Would he had been able to pitch in a game? Would one game against the Padres require a diferent player than facing the Phillies and the Indians. From what I understand the Reds wanted a lefty reliever to come up and face the Indians and Phillies. That really wouldn't have served the Reds well out in San Diego. Hence the reason for not making the move.

Nasty_Boy
05-18-2009, 09:51 AM
Last night wasn't bad, but jojo raised the biggest issue in my book. The game was on the line in the eighth. Use Cordero to shut the door there instead of saving him for a save situation that never materialized and the rest of this conversation is moot.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beerme::beerme:

paulrichjr
05-18-2009, 11:18 AM
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beerme::beerme:

The quote about the 8th and Cordero is a very good point and one that needs to be addressed by MLB. Why shouldn't the save be given to someone who actually "saves" the game. Why not change the rule and make it more arbitrary but mean something? It would be hard to do I know but why does the save only come into play during the 9th inning?

Chip R
05-18-2009, 11:35 AM
The quote about the 8th and Cordero is a very good point and one that needs to be addressed by MLB. Why shouldn't the save be given to someone who actually "saves" the game. Why not change the rule and make it more arbitrary but mean something? It would be hard to do I know but why does the save only come into play during the 9th inning?


It doesn't.

westofyou
05-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Saves:
Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states:
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
- (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
- (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or
- (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game