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View Full Version : what should be done with Alex Gonzalez?



Will M
05-18-2009, 02:13 PM
Choice A: play him at SS on a regular basis hoping his bat comes around

Choice B: play Hairston or Janish at SS. Bench Gonzalez. Give him a spot start rarely & use him as a pinch hitter.

Choice C: ask him to go to AAA. give him until Valaika comes back to start hitting. make an agreement that if he doesn't start hitting by then the Reds will release him. there is an upside here for Gonzo. i don't see a lot of big league teams deperate for a .171 hitting SS. he is a free agent after 2009. if he wants to get playing time & a deal for 2010 he has to start hitting and a stint in AAA to get his stroke back could help.

Choice D: DFA him.

Right now trying to 'band aid' the SS position with Hairston & Janish seems like the best option for the Reds. Gonzo is neither the best fielder or hitter at SS on the roster and his woefull bat is a big problem for a team that struggles to score for big stretches.

bucksfan2
05-18-2009, 02:25 PM
A+D

I give Gonzales until mid June in order to get his stroke back. He may not be the best defensive SS but he doesn't hurt the team there. If, and its a big if, he can stay healthy for a month straight I would hope he could get his swing back together.

The issue that becomes if Gonzo is DFA is JHJ will likely take most of the bats at SS. I don't think JHJ belongs in the every day lineup. I just don't think that he is reliable enough to play every day, and as this past series has shown he can be exposed by good game planning and pitching. If it is a foregone conclusion that Janish will be the every day SS and bat eighth then I am all for it. I just don't think Dusty will go that route, especially this early in the season.

wheels
05-18-2009, 02:37 PM
DFA all the way. His bat is poison and his glove isn't worth it.

jojo
05-18-2009, 02:39 PM
He should be traded to either the Cubs, Brewers or Cardinals.

Sea Ray
05-18-2009, 02:48 PM
I vote B. The Reds were winning bigtime without him. Make him win the job back. Until he does that, consider him a utility INF.

remdog
05-18-2009, 02:49 PM
He should be traded to either the Cubs, Brewers or Cardinals.

I like the thought process there. :)

Rem

Raisor
05-18-2009, 02:51 PM
DFA all the way. His bat is poison and his glove isn't worth it.

Thank you and good luck in all your future endeavers.

LvJ
05-18-2009, 02:52 PM
He had a decent 07, but his bat is not going to "come around". He's never had one.

He should be a defensive replacement only. Or, DFA all the way.

Sea Ray
05-18-2009, 02:53 PM
Thank you and good luck in all your future endeavers.

Yep, Dusty can't let loyalty cost his team wins. This situation is a test of Dusty's managerial skills

Chip R
05-18-2009, 02:54 PM
I vote B. The Reds were winning bigtime without him.

I remember they went 7-3 on that first road trip of the year with him at SS.

mbgrayson
05-18-2009, 02:56 PM
Play him 5 days a week, and let Janish play the other games. Alex needs to rest some, yet needs to play regularly to get his stroke back.

FWIW, in 2007, at 30 years of age, he posted the following line: .272/.325/.468 for an OPS of .793. He hit 16 HRs that season, over 430 plate appearances. For a shortstop that is solid defensively, those are good numbers.

Of course, the question is whether two seasons later, now at 32, can he come anywhere close to that. So far, the answer is 'no'. I would give him some time though. He was heating up right before the last injury, and then he missed eleven days. (His average went from .069 on April 19th up to .186 when he was injured.)

He did not regain his hitting in San Diego, and is currently hitting .171/.225/.280 for an OPS of .505. This is well below average even for a shortstop, and obviously it can't be allowed to continue this way much longer. I would give him a month, playing 5 days a week. Then, if his average is still below the Mendozo line (.200), I would take whatever action needed, including DFA if there was no other option.

remdog
05-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Personally, I'd sit Gonzo down at this point. However, the Reds have a conundrum; JHJ can't field, PJ can't hit (and his fielding isn't all that great) and Gonzo can't field or hit.

SS is a 'black hole' that should have been fixed in the past off-season. It wasn't and I don't want to raise a discussion about 'why'. These are the cards the Reds are playing with and they have to make the best of it.

JHJ is likely to get some playing time at other positions as injuries, slumps, days off occur. (Heck, with his personal history, JHJ has a good chance of being one of those guys with injuries! ;) ) So, you're probably going to need Janish and/or Gonzo through the season. Hope that one of these guys gets it together and plays over his head for the next 4 months.

I really don't see anyone in the minors that is ready to ride to the rescue right now.

Rem

RED VAN HOT
05-18-2009, 03:50 PM
Choice C

He can't regain his hitting without playing. Let him try to do it at AAA. Give him at least 30 games. If he does not hit, then the decision is clear. His defense does not merit retaining him unless he hits above .250. It also gives the Reds a chance to evaluate Janish offensively and/or Hairston defensively for the corresponding period. The experiment can't be less productive than continuing the current situation. The situation can be resolved by the All Star break.

TRF
05-18-2009, 03:54 PM
rem, I believe the term is actually 'black hole of suck'.

just sayin'

Will M
05-18-2009, 04:10 PM
Choice C

He can't regain his hitting without playing. Let him try to do it at AAA. Give him at least 30 games. If he does not hit, then the decision is clear. His defense does not merit retaining him unless he hits above .250. It also gives the Reds a chance to evaluate Janish offensively and/or Hairston defensively for the corresponding period. The experiment can't be less productive than continuing the current situation. The situation can be resolved by the All Star break.

that is my ideal choice as well.

Kc61
05-18-2009, 04:12 PM
Personally, I'd sit Gonzo down at this point. However, the Reds have a conundrum; JHJ can't field, PJ can't hit (and his fielding isn't all that great) and Gonzo can't field or hit.



Rem

I've watched Hairston play SS several times this season. I think he can field the position. He doesn't have a shortstop's arm, but he made several spectacular plays, has good range, and certainly is adequate for this season.

As for Gonzalez, I can't blame him for the offensive meltdown this weekend. He got a (gift) two run single on Friday, the Reds only scored three. He didn't start on Sunday.

But generally speaking, I think this is his last year with the Reds and they should try to move him when they can. The team is offensively challenged and they need to use the best bats possible. When EE comes back, I'd rather see Hairston at shortstop if he is hitting, backed up by Janish for late inning defense.

The Reds may feel they need Gonzo's professionalism as a defensive shortstop. At this point, I just wonder whether he adds that much defensively - I think I'd opt for Hairston's bat until they get a replacement at the position.

nate
05-18-2009, 04:14 PM
How could the Reds send him to AAA? I'm just going to take a wild guess that he's out of options so they'd have to send him out on a rehab assignment. I'm not saying there's not a way to do it but what are the channels they'd to go through in order to do so?

Raisor
05-18-2009, 04:18 PM
His defense does not merit retaining him unless he hits above .250. .

with his walk rate, he'd have to hit alot higher then .250.

Chip R
05-18-2009, 04:18 PM
How could the Reds send him to AAA? I'm just going to take a wild guess that he's out of options so they'd have to send him out on a rehab assignment. I'm not saying there's not a way to do it but what are the channels they'd to go through in order to do so?


He'd have to agree to be sent down there.

Raisor
05-18-2009, 04:26 PM
I think I'd opt for Hairston's bat until they get a replacement at the position.

I'd take Janish any day of the week right now. If you're really going to do a Pitching/Defense team, go with your best definsive SS, and that's Janish.

Plus, dude's got close to a 800 OPS this season so far. No way he'll keep that up, but he's probably not going to OPS .500 like A-Gon is.

SMcGavin
05-18-2009, 04:46 PM
Personally, I'd sit Gonzo down at this point. However, the Reds have a conundrum; JHJ can't field, PJ can't hit (and his fielding isn't all that great) and Gonzo can't field or hit.



I think this sums it up. I think Gonzalez is pretty bad but I'd probably keep playing him, just because I don't think the other guys are going to be any better. And if we point out Jay Bruce's unluckiness we have to do the same for Gonzalez: .188 BABIP despite a 16.9% LD%.

nate
05-18-2009, 05:16 PM
If Gonzo's not going to start, put Janish at SS, he's really the best defender the Reds have at that position. Let Hairston be our "Freel" and play around the OF and IF.

M2
05-18-2009, 05:30 PM
The Reds should go back in time and acquire a better SS during the 2008-9 offseason.

Otherwise it's play Janish more often and maybe look to pick up a Jack Wilson, Orlando Cabrera, Jhonny Peralta or Miguel Tejada in July if the club is still in the hunt. The first three on that list aren't hitting any better than Gonzalez, but maybe the Reds think one will bust out.

Another option is to snag a sleeper in the upper minors or from someone's bench.

And then there's option #3 - play the Homer Bailey card. Looks to me like the Angels need pitching and I see Brandon Wood's still punting around in AAA. Like Homer, he is also on his last option.

remdog
05-18-2009, 05:48 PM
rem, I believe the term is actually 'black hole of suck'.

just sayin'

I'm trying to be more PC these days but your point is accurate. Thanks for stepping up. :)

Rem

WMR
05-18-2009, 05:58 PM
The Reds should go back in time and acquire a better SS during the 2008-9 offseason.

Otherwise it's play Janish more often and maybe look to pick up a Jack Wilson, Orlando Cabrera, Jhonny Peralta or Miguel Tejada in July if the club is still in the hunt. The first three on that list aren't hitting any better than Gonzalez, but maybe the Reds think one will bust out.

Another option is to snag a sleeper in the upper minors or from someone's bench.

And then there's option #3 - play the Homer Bailey card. Looks to me like the Angels need pitching and I see Brandon Wood's still punting around in AAA. Like Homer, he is also on his last option.

Great post all around. Especially like the time travel part. :D

The Homer Bailey for Wood idea is particularly enticing.

TRF
05-18-2009, 06:02 PM
I'm trying to be more PC these days but your point is accurate. Thanks for stepping up. :)

Rem

I too have been trying to be a kinder and gentler TFR...

Last week I strangled him. I feel much better, but I think i'm getting divorced.

so, 6 of one...

Cooper
05-18-2009, 06:03 PM
You can't trade him so that option is out. You can't demote him cause he'd never go. Is he the kind of guy who would sit and not complain about it? Probably not- but maybe ...i guess someone should figure that out. If his BAbip went up he'd be hitting about .650 OPS. He can't really field that well though he looks like a SS (ala Jaun Castro).

I'd release him and move on.

remdog
05-18-2009, 06:07 PM
I too have been trying to be a kinder and gentler TFR...

Last week I strangled him. I feel much better, but I think i'm getting divorced.

so, 6 of one...It must be devistating to go through that. You even got your own initials wrong. ;)

Rem

OUReds
05-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Why wouldn't he accept an assignment to AAA? Is another team really going to pick him up and put him on their 40 man roster? I just can't see that happening.

Will M
05-18-2009, 08:08 PM
Why wouldn't he accept an assignment to AAA? Is another team really going to pick him up and put him on their 40 man roster? I just can't see that happening.

thats why i think it is a viable option. Gonzo needs to show he can hit to get a 2010 contract. he isn't going to do that sitting on someone's bench.

mth123
05-18-2009, 08:27 PM
Should have DLed him. Then he could get his "AAA stroke finding time" on a rehab and saved the embarrassment that would probably prevent him from ever agreeing or Dusty from ever asking. The Reds front office continues to underwhelm.

Raisor
05-18-2009, 09:55 PM
I too have been trying to be a kinder and gentler TFR...

...

Dude,

Don't you know who you are?

Raisor
05-18-2009, 09:58 PM
thats why i think it is a viable option. Gonzo needs to show he can hit to get a 2010 contract. he isn't going to do that sitting on someone's bench.

Meanwhile Juan Castro has the following line:

.450 .478 .700 1.178

He should immediatly retire just so he could say he went out "on top".

Get A-Gon healthy for more then three days, trade him for Castro, release Castro. Problem solved.

AmarilloRed
05-19-2009, 12:37 AM
I believe there is a veteran exception rule as far as options go. Players with more than 5 years of MLB experience can refuse to be sent to the minor leagues, or become a free agent. Alex is only going to AAA if he wants to, and I can't see him doing it.

WMR
05-19-2009, 01:35 AM
I believe there is a veteran exception rule as far as options go. Players with more than 5 years of MLB experience can refuse to be sent to the minor leagues, or become a free agent. Alex is only going to AAA if he wants to, and I can't see him doing it.

Then DL him.

thatcoolguy_22
05-19-2009, 02:42 AM
09
16.9% LD%
.190 BABIP
39.9 O Swing%
72.9 Z Swing%
-13.3 UZR/150

07
21.9 LD%
.301 BABIP
33.2 Oswing%
65.5 Zswing%
5.9 UZR/150



All of these stats are meaningless when you are talking about a player who is coming off a year where he did not play. Gonzo is swinging at more bad pitches than in 07 and as a result is hitting less line drives. His BABIP so far is .190 while for his career he totes a .289. His wOBA is down to .210 while in 2007 it was .272.


Is it just him slowly getting his timing back or just the beginning of the end? Thats the 4 million dollar question.

Ron Madden
05-19-2009, 03:18 AM
I never would've sined him in the first place. (Y'a can look it up)

DFA him now, gotta pay him anyway.

The way I see it there are two choices. Pay him while he takes up a roster spot and hurts the team or just pay him to go away and be done with it.

Cooper
05-19-2009, 07:02 AM
The only time he has any power what so ever is on an inside pitch where he can just drop the bat head down (essentially left field line- foul ball power). He can't get his hands up in time to hit anything up in the K zone.

These qualities are of a batter that has no strength.

RFS62
05-19-2009, 07:45 AM
rem, I believe the term is actually 'black hole of suck'.

just sayin'



Pardon me, but the RedsZone version is "black hole of suckitude".

I get royalties every time someone says "suckitude".

Right now, that's pretty much my retirement plan, living on those royalties. Raisor has his lava lamp and bobbing head bird thingie. I've got "suckitude".

GAC
05-19-2009, 08:20 AM
There is no way that JHJ is a better fielding SS then AGon. So IMO, Hairston shouldn't even be in the equation.

Gonzalez is in the last year of his contract. After this season he is history. Give Janish the majority of the playing time to see what you got, with AGon as backup..... and keep shopping to find someway to fill da hole.

Chip R
05-19-2009, 09:05 AM
Gonzalez is in the last year of his contract. After this season he is history. Give Janish the majority of the playing time to see what you got, with AGon as backup..... and keep shopping to find someway to fill da hole.


Yes, but we live in the land of Dusty where stuff like that doesn't make sense.

redsmetz
05-19-2009, 09:09 AM
Yes, but we live in the land of Dusty where stuff like that doesn't make sense.

I know this is a constant mantra on RZ, and I acknowledge that Dusty makes out the line up card each day, but I don't think this occurs completely in a vacuum. For now, I think the Reds are interested in seeing if Gonzalez can get back on track and play out the thread on his contract, or to move him somewhere else, if they can (and they may well may not be able to). I'm not suggesting that Jocketty is telling Dusty to play him, but I think the decision may well have been made with WJ and DB discussing it and acting accordingly.

I have no proof of that, but it's how I suspect these things occur. If AG doesn't get it together, I can see the club jettisoning him at some point during the season or putting him on the bench.

Chip R
05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
I know this is a constant mantra on RZ, and I acknowledge that Dusty makes out the line up card each day, but I don't think this occurs completely in a vacuum. For now, I think the Reds are interested in seeing if Gonzalez can get back on track and play out the thread on his contract, or to move him somewhere else, if they can (and they may well may not be able to). I'm not suggesting that Jocketty is telling Dusty to play him, but I think the decision may well have been made with WJ and DB discussing it and acting accordingly.



Well, I was mainly talking about having Janish get most of the playing time while Gonzo was injured. If Janish is a guy who they expect to compete for the starting SS job in 2010, it would make sense to give him starts while the incumbent is injured so they see how he does on an every day basis.

TRF
05-19-2009, 09:58 AM
It must be devistating to go through that. You even got your own initials wrong. ;)

Rem

I've had more fun admittedly.


Dude,

Don't you know who you are?

not anymore.

Jpup
05-19-2009, 03:37 PM
I think Hairston has to have the spot and let Janish play there when Hairston plays 3rd until Edwin comes back. I like Gonzalez, but I think he's done. I don't mind him as a backup, but as long as he is around, Dusty will play him.

bucksfan2
05-19-2009, 03:44 PM
I think Hairston has to have the spot and let Janish play there when Hairston plays 3rd until Edwin comes back. I like Gonzalez, but I think he's done. I don't mind him as a backup, but as long as he is around, Dusty will play him.

I don't think he is a backup at this stage in his career. It is quite obvious that he hasn't gotten his bat back up to speed. He isn't going to do that sitting on the bench. He needs at bats, reps, he needs to play. If you put him on the bench he becomes a liability. IMO he either plays every day in Cincinnati, the Reds find a way to send him to Louisville, or the DFA him.

Chip R
05-19-2009, 03:45 PM
I think Hairston has to have the spot and let Janish play there when Hairston plays 3rd until Edwin comes back. I like Gonzalez, but I think he's done. I don't mind him as a backup, but as long as he is around, Dusty will play him.


I wonder - assuming Gonzo continues not to hit - if there will be a point where they will actually bench him/release him? Considering his salary and Dusty's love of the veteran player, it doesn't appear likely but they did actually send down Patterson last year.

redsmetz
05-19-2009, 03:55 PM
I wonder - assuming Gonzo continues not to hit - if there will be a point where they will actually bench him/release him? Considering his salary and Dusty's love of the veteran player, it doesn't appear likely but they did actually send down Patterson last year.

I think he's playing him there because he and the organization have him penciled in to be the starter, hence he's starting. That probably is the wrong decision, but I think that's where it's coming from, not the ubiquitous "vet love" tagged to Dusty regularly. I think the club wants to get him back on track and hitting. Most here believe that's not going to happen and they may all be correct in that assessment. I don't think AG at SS is written in stone though. If he doesn't get it going, I think they'll play someone else. But someone mentioned early on in this thread that their guess is that the club whats to get him the AB's to get his stroke back. That's what I'm saying.

I also don't think Janish is considered the shortstop of the future, unless he puts something together that would change that view. I think they'll look to fill the need elsewhere, although I have no idea where that will be.

westofyou
05-19-2009, 04:02 PM
I wonder - assuming Gonzo continues not to hit - if there will be a point where they will actually bench him/release him? Considering his salary and Dusty's love of the veteran player, it doesn't appear likely but they did actually send down Patterson last year.

Neffi Perez and Jose Vizcaino say it could be awhile

bucksfan2
05-19-2009, 04:22 PM
I think he's playing him there because he and the organization have him penciled in to be the starter, hence he's starting. That probably is the wrong decision, but I think that's where it's coming from, not the ubiquitous "vet love" tagged to Dusty regularly. I think the club wants to get him back on track and hitting. Most here believe that's not going to happen and they may all be correct in that assessment. I don't think AG at SS is written in stone though. If he doesn't get it going, I think they'll play someone else. But someone mentioned early on in this thread that their guess is that the club whats to get him the AB's to get his stroke back. That's what I'm saying.

I also don't think Janish is considered the shortstop of the future, unless he puts something together that would change that view. I think they'll look to fill the need elsewhere, although I have no idea where that will be.

IMO what the organization sees is that a healthy 2007 version of Gonzo is their best option at SS. Quite honestly, if Gonzo could produce at that 07 level it would look pretty good in the 8th spot.

The big question is how much does Gonzo have left in the tank? How close can he come to his 07 levels? And how much longer do you give him? I don't know if the organization doesn't like Janish at SS or doesn't feel he is an every day SS. The just seem to think of him as a late inning defensive replacement. With Edwin and Gonzo on the roster that does make sense. I would like to see him get a chance to play SS every day. He will never be a world beater offensively but I do like his approach at the plate. He seems like he can handle the bat ok and would be alright in the 8th spot.

I want very little of Hariston at SS. Defensively he isn't very good and I have a feeling if he plays every day offensively he will be exposed. 4-5 days a week may be perfect for Hariston. Anything more I think he becomes nothing more than a below average player.

Jpup
05-19-2009, 04:24 PM
I wonder - assuming Gonzo continues not to hit - if there will be a point where they will actually bench him/release him? Considering his salary and Dusty's love of the veteran player, it doesn't appear likely but they did actually send down Patterson last year.

I could see them trading him, but not anything else.

BRM
05-19-2009, 04:29 PM
I could see them trading him, but not anything else.

He has negative value unless he starts hitting a little. But if he starts hitting a little, he'll stick around.

Mario-Rijo
05-19-2009, 05:06 PM
I would DFA and make a trade for a legitimate option. Mine as always is Macier Izturis, but there are others who could be available. Anyone is worth a shot but I'd prefer someone who can hit at or near the top of the lineup and play good defense. At this point with what I have seen from Gonzo going to his left his defense has slipped quite a bit and that was where his value was. As someone else pointed his pop has diminished a bit and he is mostly only pull power. Problem is the opposition doesn't even pitch him inside much anymore they just throw it outside and allow him to swing and miss or swing and just get enough to pop out or line out to RF. I hate to admit it but the best we have in house is some combination of Hairston and Janish. And frankly as high as I have been on Paul he doesn't go to his left or right real well either. I'd still play him there late in games but for now JHJ is the best overall SS we have.

Orenda
05-19-2009, 11:22 PM
IMO what the organization sees is that a healthy 2007 version of Gonzo is their best option at SS. Quite honestly, if Gonzo could produce at that 07 level it would look pretty good in the 8th spot.
.

Not to pile on the guy, but I think looking for him to repeat his 2007 version would be ignoring everything pre 2007. That could have been his career year for all I know. That year he posted his highest OPS of his professional career, including time spent in the minor leagues.

WVRedsFan
05-20-2009, 01:15 AM
I would sit his fanny on the bench, play Hairston at SS, Nix in LF, and hope for the best as we shop for a shortstop who can hit. Janish cannot hit and wouldn't hit over a 162 game schedule as a starter. As offensively challenged as this team is, we need s SS who can at least hold his own in the batter's box.

Having said that, don't look for Gonzo to do anything but start. He'll hit about .210 for the year and his reputation for fielding will get him in the lineup nearly every day.

Sad.

Ron Madden
05-20-2009, 03:01 AM
AGon isn't near the defensive SS he used to be, he is now pretty close to an automatic out whenever he steps to the plate.

The way I see it Bob has to pay AGon no matter what. AGon does very little to improve the Clubs chances of winning, defensively or offensively while taking up a valuable roster spot.

I'm not here to bash the man but in my humble opinion it would be best to pay him everything he has coming to him and say Thank You and Good Bye.


.

The Baumer
05-20-2009, 03:08 AM
How did that book Old Yeller end again?

Razor Shines
05-20-2009, 03:55 AM
AGon isn't near the defensive SS he used to be, he is now pretty close to an automatic out whenever he steps to the plate.

The way I see it Bob has to pay AGon no matter what. AGon does very little to improve the Clubs chances of winning, defensively or offensively while taking up a valuable roster spot.

I'm not here to bash the man but in my humble opinion it would be best to pay him everything he has coming to him and say Thank You and Good Bye.


.

Nah, he's on his way back. He's OPS'd .550 in the last week.

Ron Madden
05-20-2009, 04:11 AM
Nah, he's on his way back. He's OPS'd .550 in the last week.

Small sample size. He'll never keep it up.

;)

Strikes Out Looking
05-21-2009, 08:26 AM
With Reyes out, the Mets need a shortstop. Send him there for a PTBNL as long as they pay him.

kpresidente
05-22-2009, 01:14 AM
Jeff Keppinger - .321/.400/ .491/ .891

AmarilloRed
05-22-2009, 01:30 AM
Jeff Keppinger - .321/.400/ .491/ .891

Keppinger is playing a utility role in Houston, and has only played 1 game at SS there. I don't think he would be the answer, especially as he had considerable defensive difficulties as the SS last year.

nate
05-22-2009, 09:07 AM
Jeff Keppinger - .321/.400/ .491/ .891

AB: 53

jojo
05-22-2009, 09:18 AM
I think KP has argued in the past about using Keppy at short in a platoon role against lefties where in theory his bat could dwarf his defensive deficiencies.

westofyou
05-22-2009, 10:07 AM
AB: 53

And last night the Astro's announcers were running down his list of maladies, and longing for him at SS is like longing for Ryan Freel at 2b.

CTA513
05-22-2009, 12:42 PM
AB: 53

its down to .293 after going 0 for 5 and that includes .194 for this month (31 at bats).

WebScorpion
05-23-2009, 01:28 AM
AGon was 3 for 4 tonight bringing him back across the 'Mendosa line' to .209.:)

fearofpopvol1
05-24-2009, 05:40 PM
3 for 5 today with the game winning RBI. BA is now up to .225. Still not good, but it's getting to respectable territory at least, especially in the 8-hole.

And really, his defense has been very strong this year. If he can hit .250 and play the defense he has been, that will bode well for the Reds. I would like to see Janish get some more starts though.

lollipopcurve
05-24-2009, 06:01 PM
The best chance for the team to have an offense that helps the team hang around this year is to have guys like Gonzo and Hernandez regain some of the form of their best years, while Votto, Phillips and Bruce do well in the middle of the lineup. Hernandez has shown himself to be up to the task, I think. Gonzo is starting to show flashes at the plate and on defense. Remember, lotta rust for him to shake off -- this is a guy who's used to playing winter ball, and he's missed two seasons of that in addition to all of 08 in Cincy.

Not even Memorial Day yet. DFAing Gonzo would be patently ridiculous.

jojo
05-24-2009, 07:17 PM
Trade Gonzo now while his trade value is at its highest. :cool:

TheNext44
05-24-2009, 09:40 PM
If, and this is a big if, but if Gonzo plays the rest of the season healthy, provides good defense and posts offensive numbers near his career numbers, do you pick up his option for next year? $6M mutual option ($0.5M buyout)

He's only 32, so how about turning down his option and offering him a 3 year $10M extension instead?

Remember, the Reds have zero SS prospects in their system. The best is probably Cozart, and he is no guarantee to make it in the bigs, and if he does, his ceiling is probably the same as what you get with Gonzo, and is at least one and half years away (2011).

remdog
05-24-2009, 10:00 PM
If, and this is a big if, but if Gonzo plays the rest of the season healthy, provides good defense and posts offensive numbers near his career numbers, do you pick up his option for next year? $6M mutual option ($0.5M buyout)

He's only 32, so how about turning down his option and offering him a 3 year $10M extension instead?

IMO, absolutely not! I'll take my chances in the open market; make a trade, sign a free agent or go with Janish (although that last option isn't really palatable).

Rem

AmarilloRed
05-24-2009, 10:28 PM
Picking up his option and offering him an extension are 2 entirely different questions. I'd be OK with the option, but an extension would be an entirely unacceptable risk.

flyer85
05-24-2009, 10:30 PM
trade him to the Red Sox

WVPacman
05-25-2009, 12:03 AM
The reds have already made one trade with a division team which was the Astros so why not do it again with another team like the Pirates.I don't know what Jack Wilson's contract status is but I feel he will get traded sometime this year maybe in july.Trade a shortstop for another shortstop Gonzalez for Wilson?? Wilson is a amazing defender and puts up some fairly good numbers with his bat.Pittsburg,isn't going nowhere anytime soon and they always trade away their bast players while getting another average player so I would'nt mind sending Gonzalez to Pittsburg for an even better shortstop Jack Wilson.

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 12:07 AM
The reds have already made one trade with a division team which was the Astros so why not do it again with another team like the Pirates.I don't know what Jack Wilson's contract status is but I feel he will get traded sometime this year maybe in july.Trade a shortstop for another shortstop Gonzalez for Wilson?? Wilson is a amazing defender and puts up some fairly good numbers with his bat.Pittsburg,isn't going nowhere anytime soon and they always trade away their bast players while getting another average player so I would'nt mind sending Gonzalez to Pittsburg for an even better shortstop Jack Wilson.

Why would the Pirates do that? The Reds would have to throw in a prospect or two to get that deal done.

Topcat
05-25-2009, 12:11 AM
Why would the Pirates do that? The Reds would have to throw in a prospect or two to get that deal done.


Agreed and said prospect if possible should be Darryl Thompson (p) If that would seal the deal then it should be done. Also could be that 2b guy we acquired from Houston. You don't ask then um nothing will happen,

WVPacman
05-25-2009, 12:21 AM
Why would the Pirates do that? The Reds would have to throw in a prospect or two to get that deal done.

We are talking about the Pirates,they would'nt want much in return b/c they have lost for 16 straight seasons.If they want another player then trade them Norris Hopper, orDarryl Thompson they would take it.

SirFelixCat
05-25-2009, 12:29 AM
I have been one of the biggest opponents to AGon, but I will say that he had a really great series. That's all I got.

WVPacman
05-25-2009, 12:34 AM
I have been one of the biggest opponents to AGon, but I will say that he had a really great series. That's all I got.


Yeah I have been hard on the guy were he is injury phrone but I have to give the man credit b/c he had a great series.I just hope it keeps up b/c if Phillips is out for awhile then they will need his bat in the lineup.

Ron Madden
05-25-2009, 01:14 AM
If, and this is a big if, but if Gonzo plays the rest of the season healthy, provides good defense and posts offensive numbers near his career numbers, do you pick up his option for next year? $6M mutual option ($0.5M buyout)

He's only 32, so how about turning down his option and offering him a 3 year $10M extension instead?

I would like to see the Reds go a different route. I'll root for AGon as long as he's a Red but I hope this is his last season with the Club.

nate
05-25-2009, 09:20 AM
I would say, let's see what he's done by the All Star break. A handful of hot ABs is nice and I hope he continues but I'm not sure it's enough to start talking extension just yet.

wheels
05-25-2009, 11:16 AM
A hot few days at the plate does nothing to erase the fact that he's barely been on the field since he was signed.

Extending him with the expectation that he will be the team's starting shortstop throughout the life of that contract would be a major mistake.

This team needs an upgrade at short in the worst way, and even a 100% healthy Alex Gonzalez doesn't help matters one bit.

redsmetz
05-25-2009, 11:19 AM
A hot few days at the plate does nothing to erase the fact that he's barely been on the field since he was signed.

Extending him with the expectation that he will be the team's starting shortstop throughout the life of that contract would be a major mistake.

This team needs an upgrade at short in the worst way, and even a 100% healthy Alex Gonzalez doesn't help matters one bit.

I've been one to say I've fully understood the Reds not making shortstop a priority and have expected a healthy Alex Gonzalez to play out this year's contract (unless traded), but I wouldn't support extending that contract. I'm iffy on picking up the option, but only barely. I'm inclined to say "thanks" at season's end and move on another way.

wheels
05-25-2009, 11:25 AM
I've been one to say I've fully understood the Reds not making shortstop a priority and have expected a healthy Alex Gonzalez to play out this year's contract (unless traded), but I wouldn't support extending that contract. I'm iffy on picking up the option, but only barely. I'm inclined to say "thanks" at season's end and move on another way.

You're inching closer to The Darkside, my friend.:D

redsmetz
05-25-2009, 11:31 AM
You're inching closer to The Darkside, my friend.:D

Well let me think of all the ways I could clarifying "barely." My inclination would be a solid no. I really do appreciate what Gonzo has been through. Much of the bad feelings about him have been circumstances. I'd love to see the AG of the last handful of games be what we see the rest of the way, but I doubt that's going to happen, but he's hitting the ball well right now and that's a good thing. Shortstop is a big priority for next season and, as I said, it's time to say thanks to Alex and move on.

lollipopcurve
05-25-2009, 12:15 PM
Way too soon to make a call on picking up the option. Let the season play out. I'd say he'll have to play very well to get the 6 million or whatever it is. I think he's capable of it, but he could just as easily plateau at some mediocre level of production. No way do you extend him beyond next year... he's getting into his mid-30s.

TheNext44
05-25-2009, 01:51 PM
Just for clarification, my question was this:


If, and this is a big if, but if Gonzo plays the rest of the season healthy, provides good defense and posts offensive numbers near his career numbers, do you pick up his option for next year? $6M mutual option ($0.5M buyout)

I am not asking to make the decision now, that would be foolish. But what if he is healthy and productive at the end of the season?

Personally, I'm not sure I would, due to his injury history, but I would think about both the option and the extension. The extension would be getting him for well below market value for a league average SS. I lot would depend on what else was out there.

flyer85
05-25-2009, 01:54 PM
Believe the track record ... injury prone, average defense, below average offense and in his 30s. forget how he finishes the season and pass.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:04 PM
Believe the track record ... injury prone, average defense, below average offense and in his 30s. forget how he finishes the season and pass.

Amen!

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 02:10 PM
We are talking about the Pirates,they would'nt want much in return b/c they have lost for 16 straight seasons.If they want another player then trade them Norris Hopper, orDarryl Thompson they would take it.

I understand that, but the Pirates aren't THAT stupid. Not to mention, it's not like Gonzo is a cheap up and comer, for a franchise that doesn't spend a lot of money. Thompson and Gonzo could get it done. I think they'd want someone a little better, but it might have them interested.

remdog
05-25-2009, 02:13 PM
Just for clarification, my question was this:



I am not asking to make the decision now, that would be foolish.

I'm guessing that the Reds have, in fact, already made the decision. And now is a perfect time to do it because, as you discuss possible trade options, you want to be looking for a SS.

Another reason that I think the Reds have already made a decision to cut bait is because Alex isn't Walt's boy, he's Krivsky's and Wayne ain't here no more (said in my best Sparky Anderson voice :) ).

Rem

RED VAN HOT
05-25-2009, 02:33 PM
In the Nick Krall interview posted earlier, it was argued that Taveras saved a number of opponent AB's each year because of his fielding. Wouldn't such an analysis be equally applicable to the SS position?

I did some back of the envelope calculations and came up with the following:

Chances/inning played at SS. Gonzalez .444 ; Hairston .536 ; Janish .602

DP's/inning played at SS. Gonzalez .0680 ; Hairston .0714 ; Janish .1136

This means that for every 9 innings, Janish has had 1.4 more chances that Gonzalez. On the surface of it, these numbers make a very good argument for putting Janish at SS until you decide that you can't live with his bat.

westofyou
05-25-2009, 02:44 PM
Pick up his option? This is actually being discussed in May?

Way too early and one decision that need not possess any emotion when the decision needs to be made.

I'll say that Janish's season will play into any decision just as much as Gonalez's does.

traderumor
05-25-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm starting to lean on the Janish side. If we can afford his suspect bat in the lineup, I love his D.

Chip R
05-25-2009, 03:08 PM
I am not asking to make the decision now, that would be foolish. But what if he is healthy and productive at the end of the season?



If they want him back, they don't have to pick up the $6M option. They can buy him out and sign him to a 1-2 year deal for about $3M a season. If he thinks he's worth more than that, let him go out on the open market. In this economy, paying big money to a SS on the wrong side of 30 who may hit .280 in a great season who doesn't have any pop who is injured often is ridiculous.

WMR
05-25-2009, 04:00 PM
Believe the track record ... injury prone, average defense, below average offense and in his 30s. forget how he finishes the season and pass.

GAC
05-25-2009, 06:51 PM
Pick up his option? This is actually being discussed in May?

Way too early and one decision that need not possess any emotion when the decision needs to be made.

I'll say that Janish's season will play into any decision just as much as Gonalez's does.

I thoroughly agree. We don't need to be rash at this stage of the season. AGon was out all last year, and really didn't have an ST. So it's taken him longer to get back into the swing of things IMO. Now I know we're talking AGon here; but he's not as bad as he was playing in the first month.

Went down to the first two games vs the Indians, and was very impressed with AGon's range and various defensive plays he made.

The question is - what is the better option as a SS right now? We're kind of between a rock and a hard spot. I just wish Baker would give Janish more of a chance at SS then JHJ. Isn't that why Paul is on the roster?

VR
05-25-2009, 08:08 PM
Best case scenario is he performs at or above where he's at right now, and your able to trade him for a quality prospect or two to a team in the hunt.

I think Gonzo does have some value, but Janish really looks to be developing into a + defender that may hit at the .700 level or above.

UKFlounder
05-25-2009, 09:40 PM
Best case scenario is that he performs better than expected and he helps the Reds remain in the hunt. Second best is that he is traded to a different team in the hunt for some prospect(s).


Best case scenario is he performs at or above where he's at right now, and your able to trade him for a quality prospect or two to a team in the hunt.

I think Gonzo does have some value, but Janish really looks to be developing into a + defender that may hit at the .700 level or above.

thatcoolguy_22
05-25-2009, 10:25 PM
Does anyone know when a decision would have to be made for picking up the option? I'm not overly opposed to picking up another year of league average defense at SS but, the longer the FO can wait to decide the better WJ will be able to guage the market. Also as long as people are talking about Jack Wilson (who the Pirates declined a straight swap with Betancourt from the M's) what about another intradivision trade with the Cards?

I present Khalil Green.

His numbers look putrid at the moment but, I feel a lot of that is just bad luck. .208/.289/.307
08...................09
5.0%................9.0 BB%
25.7%..............14.9 K%
20.6%..............22.7 LD%
.262%..............226 BABIP

BBs are up K's are down and his LD% has shown a jump. His glove is suspect but, in 07 (only 150+ games year) he had a -3.0 UZR. With Tyler Greene playing well the Cards just may be willing to move for pennies on the dollar.


In conclusion if Gonzalez is the best option available come the day before his option year needs to be picked up I'm ok with it. However I will be in favor of jumping all over any possible improvement. Also If a true high OPS bat can be picked up I would be fine with any super glove weak bat player (Janish comes to mind) manning SS for the entire 2010 year.

Topcat
05-26-2009, 04:38 AM
I go and Get Bettancourt and offer Gonzo plus a guy like Dorn honestly. It completes the deal and easily I may add.

blumj
05-26-2009, 07:00 AM
Betancourt's awful.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2009, 11:39 AM
Betancourt's awful.

Yep. I wouldn't even trade Gonzalez straight up for Betancourt. That's how bad he is.

blumj
05-26-2009, 04:22 PM
Yep. I wouldn't even trade Gonzalez straight up for Betancourt. That's how bad he is.
Just from a baseball standpoint, if I had to play one of them at SS, I don't even think I'd trade Lugo for him, which is really saying something.