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lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 09:04 AM
OK, little rant here.

Why is Owings going today and not Ramirez? We already know -- though the Reds are acting like they're keeping it secret -- that Ramirez will take Volquez's turn on Saturday. So, let's dispense with the amateurish attempt at guarding information for the purposes of keeping the opposition off-balance -- it's embarrassing, really.

Ramirez is already on long rest. Get him in there.

Owings is on regular rest, after throwing 85 pitches on short rest. He should get an extra day and pitch on Friday.

That would allow Arroyo to get the extra day Baker claims he wants him to have and pitch on Saturday. Cueto, as scheduled, on Sunday.

The best move, for the short term and long term, is to disable Volquez and promote a reliever, so you've got a full BP backing up Ramirez (today, as I'd have it) and Owings tomorrow (as I'd have it).

Instead, we get a short bullpen and less rest for Owings and Arroyo -- while the team diddles around with yet another injured player who they refuse to put on the disabled list.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 10:10 AM
Why is Owings going today and not Ramirez?

Because Owings has a chance to actually win the game.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 10:15 AM
Because Owings has a chance to actually win the game.

Don't kid yourself -- Ramirez is in the rotation right now. He's going to start Saturday.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Don't kid yourself -- Ramirez is in the rotation right now. He's going to start Saturday.

Better Saturday than against the Phils. The Reds' offense can easily keep up with Cleveland's dogcrap pitching.

Kc61
05-21-2009, 10:20 AM
Don't kid yourself -- Ramirez is in the rotation right now. He's going to start Saturday.


Owings is on full four days rest. He is a regular starter in the rotation. Why not pitch him?

The Reds need to start winning home series. They are in a rubber game against the world champs. Why pitch a rookie right up from AAA today? Why not pitch the regular rotation guy with regular rest?

If Volquez can't go Saturday, there will be no available starter with four days rest. So Ramirez will have to pitch. But why advance him when a regular guy is ready?

joshnky
05-21-2009, 10:21 AM
It seems to make perfect sense to me.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 10:27 AM
Owings is on full four days rest. He is a regular starter in the rotation. Why not pitch him?

The Reds need to start winning home series. They are in a rubber game against the world champs. Why pitch a rookie right up from AAA today? Why not pitch the regular rotation guy with regular rest?

If Volquez can't go Saturday, there will be no available starter with four days rest. So Ramirez will have to pitch. But why advance him when a regular guy is ready?

1. Owings is coming off an outing in which he was on short rest. He's coming off a season in which he couldn't pitch because of shoulder problems. Give him an extra day.

2. Ramirez is already on extra rest, and he'd been pitching well in AAA. Why ice him more?

3. Baker wanted an extra day for Arroyo. You get that by going Ramirez-Owings-Arroyo instead of Owings-Arroyo-Ramirez.

It's about managing a staff to keep guys fresh. Not cherrypicking matchups or winning the series you're presently in. Long view here, people, long season. Matter of philosophy, I guess.

Team Clark
05-21-2009, 10:30 AM
Why is Owings going today and not Ramirez?

'Cause he's scrappy?

traderumor
05-21-2009, 10:32 AM
If Dusty is so concerned about Arroyo getting an extra day, all he has to do is flip flop Arroyo and Ramirez. Owings is now on regular rest. I think the benefit of an extra day is being greatly overstated as the premise for the rant.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 10:37 AM
If Dusty is so concerned about Arroyo getting an extra day, all he has to do is flip flop Arroyo and Ramirez. Owings is now on regular rest. I think the benefit of an extra day is being greatly overstated as the premise for the rant.

That's why I say it's a matter of philosophy. I'll err on the side of extra rest every time.

Kc61
05-21-2009, 10:43 AM
1. Owings is coming off an outing in which he was on short rest. He's coming off a season in which he couldn't pitch because of shoulder problems. Give him an extra day.

2. Ramirez is already on extra rest, and he'd been pitching well in AAA. Why ice him more?

3. Baker wanted an extra day for Arroyo. You get that by going Ramirez-Owings-Arroyo instead of Owings-Arroyo-Ramirez.

It's about managing a staff to keep guys fresh. Not cherrypicking matchups or winning the series you're presently in. Long view here, people, long season. Matter of philosophy, I guess.


I just don't know enough about Owings' shoulder condition to comment on that. But normally, I would pitch the guy on four days rest. That goes for Arroyo Friday too. Sometimes extra rest can throw a pitcher off just as much as short rest.

The bullpen should be pretty well rested, so if Owings goes six good innings, I wouldn't hesitate to give Burton a couple of innings today. He looked very good in the 16 inning game, not sure he has pitched at all since.

My quibble with Dusty today isn't the pitching. It's that Dickerson isn't in the lineup. Reds should use three lefty bats against Blanton, Dickerson has looked better lately, this was a game to use him. Nix could play first, Dickerson left.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 10:48 AM
My quibble with Dusty today isn't the pitching. It's that Dickerson isn't in the lineup. Reds should use three lefty bats against Blanton, Dickerson has looked better lately, this was a game to use him. Nix could play first, Dickerson left.

Agree that Dickerson needs a start. I'd give Bruce or Taveras the day off -- they both need it.

Danny Serafini
05-21-2009, 11:02 AM
That goes for Arroyo Friday too. Sometimes extra rest can throw a pitcher off just as much as short rest.

Agree. Arroyo's said before he'd rather go on short rest. Giving him an extra day off might just result in him being less sharp. No reason to throw him out of his routine.

HeatherC1212
05-21-2009, 11:18 AM
I would have had a problem with the pitching if Micah had gone yesterday but since he's on normal rest pitching today, I have no problem with how the starting rotation has gone this week. The fact that they're erring on the side of caution with Volquez right now doesn't bother me either because I'd rather them do that and him miss the start than watch him try to make the start on Saturday and have to leave again. I'm going to that game and I'd rather not watch the starting pitcher have to come out of the game early. :eek:

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2009, 11:25 AM
My quibble with Dusty today isn't the pitching. It's that Dickerson isn't in the lineup. Reds should use three lefty bats against Blanton, Dickerson has looked better lately, this was a game to use him. Nix could play first, Dickerson left.

I agree. I would've started Dickerson in CF today. Or in LF with Nix playing first base.

Eric_the_Red
05-21-2009, 11:26 AM
Perhaps Dusty figures that with Votto out, they need the offense against the Phils?

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 11:31 AM
Agree. Arroyo's said before he'd rather go on short rest. Giving him an extra day off might just result in him being less sharp. No reason to throw him out of his routine.

In his career, Arroyo has thrown 630 innings on 4 days rest. 370 on 5 days. The results are nearly identical (check out www.baseball-reference.com). He's been sharper on 3 days, and less sharp on 6 days. Conclusion: It has made no difference whether Arroyo is on 4 days or 5 days rest.

We all know Arroyo likes to get his 200 innings, so he's always going to lobby for more starts instead of less. My stance is that over time, and as these expensive assets (starting pitchers) get older, the extra rest is going to help preserve them. Manageable pitch counts, extra rest on occasion, using the full 5-man rotation when you've got a decent 5th starter, no huge jumps in IP from year to year. I buy into all that stuff.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 11:33 AM
I'm not bending over backwards to accommodate Arroyo if I'm Dusty.

REDREAD
05-21-2009, 11:35 AM
I have no problem with Dusty's rotation. Ramerez is the 5th starter for now.

Conventional wisdom says that you put off giving a weak link (like Ramerez) a start as long as possible. You want to minimize the number of starts Ramerez makes, because he's not as good as the other pitchers. If you pitch Ramerez now, his next start (if he gets one) arrives two days sooner. With Dusty's plan, Volquez gets an extra two days to get better, and possibly avoid having Ramerez start again.

bucksfan2
05-21-2009, 11:36 AM
I agree. I would've started Dickerson in CF today. Or in LF with Nix playing first base.

Your grasping at straws here trying to get Dickerson in the lineup. Laynce Nix has played a total of 0 games at first in his major or minor league career. It seems like the only options to play 1b with Votto out are Hernandez and Rosales. With Hannigan starting last nights game I think Hernandez will be behind the plate with Rosales at 1b. For a team that has diverted its focus to pitching and defense you can possibly insert a player at 1b who has never professionally played that position.

BRM
05-21-2009, 11:38 AM
Your grasping at straws here trying to get Dickerson in the lineup. Laynce Nix has played a total of 0 games at first in his major or minor league career. It seems like the only options to play 1b with Votto out are Hernandez and Rosales. With Hannigan starting last nights game I think Hernandez will be behind the plate with Rosales at 1b. For a team that has diverted its focus to pitching and defense you can possibly insert a player at 1b who has never professionally played that position.

Which is why his first choice was to play Dickerson in CF.

Hanigan is catching again today, by the way. Hernandez back at 1B with Rosales getting the start at 3B.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 11:42 AM
With Dusty's plan, Volquez gets an extra two days to get better, and possibly avoid having Ramerez start again.

I agree that this may be the plan. To me, it's wildly uncertain and virtually guarantees that Volquez will push to get himself back out there, because Dusty's plan is predicated on his getting back soon enough that Ramirez doesn't have to start again.

Managing like you've got a weak link can be a self-fulfilling prophecy -- you think you're managing risk and you end up taking stupid chances.

Kc61
05-21-2009, 01:20 PM
I agree that this may be the plan. To me, it's wildly uncertain and virtually guarantees that Volquez will push to get himself back out there, because Dusty's plan is predicated on his getting back soon enough that Ramirez doesn't have to start again.

Managing like you've got a weak link can be a self-fulfilling prophecy -- you think you're managing risk and you end up taking stupid chances.

Mr. Owings has proven you to be correct. Maybe it was just that the opposition was too tough today, unlike Saturday night.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 01:24 PM
Mr. Owings has proven you to be correct. Maybe it was just that the opposition was too tough today, unlike Saturday night.

I think Dusty's thinking was simple and correct: give your team the best chance to win today. It hasn't worked out, but the thinking was right; Dusty can't force Owings to throw strikes to the pitcher.

tripleaaaron
05-21-2009, 01:56 PM
Well now he's really messed things up putting in Ramirez. Now who's making volquez start on saturday?

TheNext44
05-21-2009, 02:04 PM
Well now he's really messed things up putting in Ramirez. Now who's making volquez start on saturday?

IF Volquez can't start on Sat., he goes on the DL and Bailey is called up to start in his place.

Volquez would be eligible to come off next Sunday, which means he would only miss one more start, and Bailey is scheduled to pitch this Sat.

princeton
05-21-2009, 02:07 PM
Well now he's really messed things up putting in Ramirez. Now who's making volquez start on saturday?

Matt Maloney

SMcGavin
05-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Matt Maloney

Unless I'm missing something, today should have been his day to pitch for Louisville. His last four starts were the 16th, 11th, 6th, and 1st. And he did not pitch today, Adam Pettyjohn made the start. Maybe someone more in touch with the Louisville rotation can help me out, was Maloney originally scheduled to go today?

Edit: they had an off day yesterday, maybe that explains it?

REDREAD
05-21-2009, 03:04 PM
Matt Maloney

I doubt Maloney is called up all year, unless there's a big rash of injuries.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 03:05 PM
Unless I'm missing something, today should have been his day to pitch for Louisville. His last four starts were the 16th, 11th, 6th, and 1st. And he did not pitch today, Adam Pettyjohn made the start. Maybe someone more in touch with the Louisville rotation can help me out, was Maloney originally scheduled to go today?

Edit: they had an off day yesterday, maybe that explains it?

Maloney is due to pitch tomorrow. Bailey and Lecure, who both pitched in a doubleheader Monday, could pitch on regular rest on Saturday. My guess is Bailey gets the start.

Kc61
05-21-2009, 03:13 PM
I can understand the excuse for Owings who pitched on short rest last time.

What's the excuse for Ramirez, Herrera, and Burton? Don't say it, I know the answer.

CTA513
05-21-2009, 03:16 PM
I can understand the excuse for Owings who pitched on short rest last time.

What's the excuse for Ramirez, Herrera, and Burton? Don't say it, I know the answer.

Then why ask?

HokieRed
05-21-2009, 03:17 PM
He was hoping somebody would explain that their suckitude is just an illusion, that they're actually better than we all know them to be.

traderumor
05-21-2009, 03:22 PM
He was hoping somebody would explain that their suckitude is just an illusion, that they're actually better than we all know them to be.They are middle relievers. They are the weak part of any bullpen and every game each team is trying to get them in the game. Today, the Phillies succeeded, and their hitters are beating them up accordingly.

SMcGavin
05-21-2009, 03:30 PM
Maloney is due to pitch tomorrow. Bailey and Lecure, who both pitched in a doubleheader Monday, could pitch on regular rest on Saturday. My guess is Bailey gets the start.

Gotcha. I figured Bailey would get the call before Maloney did.

HokieRed
05-21-2009, 04:56 PM
They are middle relievers. They are the weak part of any bullpen and every game each team is trying to get them in the game. Today, the Phillies succeeded, and their hitters are beating them up accordingly.

Seems an odd defense. Do good teams carry pitchers they know cannot apparently get enough people out to win games?

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2009, 05:25 PM
LOL. The extent of the rants in this thread are hilarious. And as usual, they're all based on assumptions. Nowhere did Dusty (or anybody) ever say that Ramon Ramirez was being called up to START. He was called up as Masset was put on the DL. In my mind, Ramirez is replacing Masset. Long relief. And that's the role he provided today. The gripes about Owings going today were also overblown. He had a solid 4 days rest, coming on the heals of a light relief outting (well...less than a start we'll say...not really "light").

Nix at first? Really? I think he did it a little bit in ST, but that's about it. Against the Phils is not the right time to a first-time defender experiment IMO.

So, when does everybody step up and say "I'm sorry...Dusty did it perfectly right". Because they did. Homer up and Edinson DL'ed (backdated of course). Rotation managed perfectly. Just not early enough to fight off the conjecture-vultures. :O)

Kc61
05-21-2009, 05:46 PM
LOL. The extent of the rants in this thread are hilarious. And as usual, they're all based on assumptions. Nowhere did Dusty (or anybody) ever say that Ramon Ramirez was being called up to START. He was called up as Masset was put on the DL. In my mind, Ramirez is replacing Masset. Long relief. And that's the role he provided today. The gripes about Owings going today were also overblown. He had a solid 4 days rest, coming on the heals of a light relief outting (well...less than a start we'll say...not really "light").

Nix at first? Really? I think he did it a little bit in ST, but that's about it. Against the Phils is not the right time to a first-time defender experiment IMO.

So, when does everybody step up and say "I'm sorry...Dusty did it perfectly right". Because they did. Homer up and Edinson DL'ed (backdated of course). Rotation managed perfectly. Just not early enough to fight off the conjecture-vultures. :O)

Yeah, everything was just rosey at the ball yard today.

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2009, 05:50 PM
I never said that. Owings had a bad start against a good offensive team. The middle relief got beat around too. None of that has ANYTHING to do with "mismanagement". Take a step back from being a Reds fan and look at this game. Is anybody surprised that the Phillies offense broke out a bit against our #5 starter and our middle relievers? Not me. And despite the bad game, our bullpen is still quite good (although I think Burton may still be slightly injured and Lincoln probably should be replaced).

TheNext44
05-21-2009, 06:00 PM
I can understand the excuse for Owings who pitched on short rest last time.

What's the excuse for Ramirez, Herrera, and Burton? Don't say it, I know the answer.

They ran into, after today, one of the top 5 offensive teams in the majors and 2nd in the NL... in GABP... on a sunny day... when the ball was carrying... after they had been held to 5 runs in their last two games. Sometimes it's not all about you, it's about the other guy as well.

traderumor
05-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Seems an odd defense. Do good teams carry pitchers they know cannot apparently get enough people out to win games?It is not a defense, it is an explanation of a basic aspect of the game. Middle relievers are stop gaps and cannot be relied upond to "get enough people out to win games." Middle relievers and back of the rotation starters are a product of basic economics, whereby there are a limited number of "good" pitchers, so teams are forced to try to put the best available arms out there and hope that some combination is able to get 27 outs and give up fewer runs than the offense scores. In other words, there are Lincoln's, Burton's, Herrera's, Ramirez', et al. on every single team in the majors, and those guys have been much better pitchers than they were today. They have even pitched in games that the Reds had a lead and ended up winning. Imagine that. But still, the Phils were licking their chops to see our worst relievers in there, just like any major league team.

Yes, good teams "carry pitchers they know cannot apparently get enough people out to win games." That is why it is called a "staff"

cincrazy
05-21-2009, 09:34 PM
Owings struggling today had nothing to do with his relief appearance. He's not the first, and he won't be the last, to pitch on 3 days rest. His stuff against the Phillies is a horrible match. They're a great hitting team, loaded with lefties, in our ballpark. You could have given Owings 7 days of rest and the outcome would have been the same.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 09:54 PM
Owings struggling today had nothing to do with his relief appearance. He's not the first, and he won't be the last, to pitch on 3 days rest. His stuff against the Phillies is a horrible match. They're a great hitting team, loaded with lefties, in our ballpark. You could have given Owings 7 days of rest and the outcome would have been the same.

Yep. Soft-tossing righty with poor control. Doomed.

Will M
05-21-2009, 10:10 PM
Harang age 26:
161 IP 4.86 ERA 1.43 WHIP

Owings age 26 (so far):
44 IP 4.70 ERA 1.50 WHIP
Plus he can hit.

Owings had a bad game today but overall has been giving us decent starts out of the #5 spot in the rotation.

HokieRed
05-21-2009, 10:50 PM
It is not a defense, it is an explanation of a basic aspect of the game. Middle relievers are stop gaps and cannot be relied upond to "get enough people out to win games." Middle relievers and back of the rotation starters are a product of basic economics, whereby there are a limited number of "good" pitchers, so teams are forced to try to put the best available arms out there and hope that some combination is able to get 27 outs and give up fewer runs than the offense scores. In other words, there are Lincoln's, Burton's, Herrera's, Ramirez', et al. on every single team in the majors, and those guys have been much better pitchers than they were today. They have even pitched in games that the Reds had a lead and ended up winning. Imagine that. But still, the Phils were licking their chops to see our worst relievers in there, just like any major league team.

Yes, good teams "carry pitchers they know cannot apparently get enough people out to win games." That is why it is called a "staff"


I would suggest really good teams have no one on the "staff" who is thought to be generally incapable of getting enough people out to win games.

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2009, 11:13 PM
Harang age 26:
161 IP 4.86 ERA 1.43 WHIP

Owings age 26 (so far):
44 IP 4.70 ERA 1.50 WHIP
Plus he can hit.

Owings had a bad game today but overall has been giving us decent starts out of the #5 spot in the rotation.

I wish all soft-tossers morphed into Aaron Harang too...

membengal
05-22-2009, 08:20 AM
Micah Owings isn't a "soft-tosser".

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 08:41 AM
Micah Owings isn't a "soft-tosser".

This season he has been. Don't think I've seen the guy top 90. His FBs hover around 87-88 most of the time. He's a poor-man's late-career Andy Benes.

cincrazy
05-22-2009, 08:52 AM
This season he has been. Don't think I've seen the guy top 90. His FBs hover around 87-88 most of the time. He's a poor-man's late-career Andy Benes.

Yeah, at the game yesterday he was mainly 87 mph. I've seen him around 90-91 a few times, and he's a completely different pitcher when he's throwing that hard. But so far for us he's mainly been mid to upper 80's.

bucksfan2
05-22-2009, 08:55 AM
Owings main problem was with the lineup he faced. He has a tough time with lefties and Philly loaded the lineup with MVP caliber lefties one after another. Off the top of my head there are two teams that I wouldn't want Owings to pitch against, the Mets and the Phillies.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:09 AM
I would suggest really good teams have no one on the "staff" who is thought to be generally incapable of getting enough people out to win games.Boy, I must admit I now have no idea what you are getting at here.

membengal
05-22-2009, 09:20 AM
Yeah, at the game yesterday he was mainly 87 mph. I've seen him around 90-91 a few times, and he's a completely different pitcher when he's throwing that hard. But so far for us he's mainly been mid to upper 80's.

At the game today, which was the point of this thread, he was likely nowhere near full strength in terms of arm strength. I am not the least bit surprised he was topping out at 87. Gently, that is perhaps the point of lollipop in starting this thread. That he should have been pushed back a few days.

He isn't a "soft-tosser".

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:23 AM
As I said, I've never seen Owings top 90 in the three starts I've watched him in this season. By my definition (and I realize it's all subjective), a guy who doesn't top 90 is a soft-tosser.

membengal
05-22-2009, 09:25 AM
And I've seen him sitting at 91/92 in some of his starts. So, there you go. By my definition, a guy who is in the low 90s is not a soft-tosser.

That he wasn't there yesterday is not remotely a surprise to me, given the bullet he took on Saturday.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:28 AM
Owings' biggest problem isn't his velocity (lots of guys can make a living at 88-90), it's his control. Combine poor control with unelectric velocity and you're probably not going to be very successful.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:31 AM
At the game today, which was the point of this thread, he was likely nowhere near full strength in terms of arm strength. I am not the least bit surprised he was topping out at 87. Gently, that is perhaps the point of lollipop in starting this thread. That he should have been pushed back a few days.

He isn't a "soft-tosser".Pitchers radar gun speeds vary all the time. There are an awful lot of variables to deal with in explaining that before one starts making those kinds of conclusions.

membengal
05-22-2009, 09:52 AM
yes. heaven forbid the reds err on the side of caution with a SP asset. It's not like they have a precedent to look back on and draw lessons from. Oh. Wait.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:57 AM
yes. heaven forbid the reds err on the side of caution with a SP asset. It's not like they have a precedent to look back on and draw lessons from. Oh. Wait.What does that have to do with jumping to conclusions from anecdotal radar reading evidence?

BTW, they just put Volquez on the DL. They seem to be taking appropriate precautions there. I am sure it is because of RZ pressure, though.

membengal
05-22-2009, 10:12 AM
What does Volquez have to do with Owings? And bumping Owings back in light of the SD thing? I still don't get why the notion of caution for a SP asset is such anethema to so many fans.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 10:31 AM
What does Volquez have to do with Owings? And bumping Owings back in light of the SD thing? I still don't get why the notion of caution for a SP asset is such anethema to so many fans.You are arguing that the Reds threw caution to the wind by starting Owings yesterday, yet on the same day, Volquez was put on the DL for back spasms.

And I didn't realize that the notion of caution was set forth by lollipop's thesis that started this thread. A new standard has been set which we all will be judged. Does that make me a Ryanite?

membengal
05-22-2009, 10:39 AM
I'm not arguing anything. I am saying the reds mis-handled Owings. History of shoulder issues? Check. High stress unusual outing on Saturday? Check. Late night Saturday (really into Sunda am following by a Thursday noon start? Check. Not enough time. He should have been pushed back. Simply out of discretion.

I am gad they bowed to the reality of Volquez's back spasms. At the least they did not compound the problem.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm not arguing anything. I am saying the reds mis-handled Owings. He should have been pushed back. I am gad they bowed to the reality of Volquez's back spasms. At the least they did not compound the problem.Arguing, as in presenting your case. This level of dogmatism considering the issue is really what I take exception to, and I think you are going to have trouble consistently applying this principle to a major league rotation with a 5th starter/swingman.

cincrazy
05-22-2009, 12:09 PM
And I've seen him sitting at 91/92 in some of his starts. So, there you go. By my definition, a guy who is in the low 90s is not a soft-tosser.

That he wasn't there yesterday is not remotely a surprise to me, given the bullet he took on Saturday.

I wouldn't categorize him as soft tosser. But I don't think his velocity is good enough to make up for his lack of a good breaking ball to put hitters away. When Owings is hitting his spots, he does well. When he doesn't, he gets mashed. Maybe he was 87 all day yesterday because of the relief stint, but generally speaking, from what I've seen even when he's on regular rest, he doesn't sit at 92. He can touch 92, but it's not a consistent 91-92 mph.

membengal
05-22-2009, 01:51 PM
Arguing, as in presenting your case. This level of dogmatism considering the issue is really what I take exception to, and I think you are going to have trouble consistently applying this principle to a major league rotation with a 5th starter/swingman.

It would be cool if you would stop projecting. It is my view they are taking (and took) an unncessary risk with an asset. He is not disposable, no matter how much you want him treated that way.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 02:58 PM
It would be cool if you would stop projecting. It is my view they are taking (and took) an unncessary risk with an asset. He is not disposable, no matter how much you want him treated that way.Speaking of projecting, my disagreement with your viewpoint does not require me to hold the "eh, he's disposable" view, and I don't. I disagree with the "overwork" premise of the view.

WebScorpion
05-23-2009, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure what all the hubbub is about. Isn't this what 5th starters have always done? They pitch on odd rest schedules because sometimes we don't need a 5th (day off) which makes them available for long relief. That's baseball. Sure Owings didn't perform well, but that's part of the game too...sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. It's not like he's 20 or 21 and it's going to damage his arm. He's the 5th starter...this is his role. If he can't handle it, there are a bunch of pitchers in Louisville who'd like a shot. :D

traderumor
05-23-2009, 10:33 AM
I think this is hulabaloo, not hubbub ;)

WebScorpion
05-24-2009, 12:58 AM
I think this is hulabaloo, not hubbub ;) Pure poppycock, that's what it is! ;)