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CTA513
05-21-2009, 04:48 PM
From Cincinnati.com:


Volquez to DL; Bailey called up

Posted by TomGroeschen at 5/21/2009 4:38 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com
Quick postgame hits:

-Edinson Volquez (back spasms) has been placed on the 15-day DL retroactive to Sunday. Homer Bailey will be called up to start in Volquez' place Saturday vs. Cleveland.

-Joey Votto spoke for the first time about his good-news diagnosis, in postgame:
"It was a pretty scary few days ... the results give me peace of mind...I was champing at the bit to get in there today."

-Brandon Phillips on facing his old team, the Indians, this weekend: "I don't really care about them. I don't like them."

-Dusty Baker on the 12-5 loss to Philly today: "They beat us up pretty good. Sooner or later they're gonna erupt, and they did today."


http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aa9d8fdba-d89e-43a1-a182-990d9dcb1b45&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Team Clark
05-21-2009, 05:16 PM
Guess we will see what's what... Go Homer.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 05:28 PM
Volquez christens the DL. Wonder if he'll be ostracized.

Looking forward to seeing Homer -- still remember well his major league debut, also v. Cleveland at Great American.

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2009, 05:28 PM
If Homer is lights out, does it push Micah to the pen? With Masset out, it's certainly something I'd consider.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 05:30 PM
If Homer is lights out, does it push Micah to the pen? With Masset out, it's certainly something I'd consider.

When Masset gets back, he immediately moves into the rotation. Owings to the pen. If I'm the GM, of course.

LvJ
05-21-2009, 05:31 PM
LOL at that Phillips quote.

LincolnparkRed
05-21-2009, 05:32 PM
Now Walt needs to decide the Gonzalez, Mcdonald issue. They seem to need Gomes or are they going to wait until inter-league?

icehole3
05-21-2009, 05:33 PM
LOL at that Phillips quote.

I agree, tell us how you really feel Brandon, geez

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Good decision by the Reds to disable Volquez. It looks like he'll only miss two starts. There's no sense in sending him out there at less than 100% when you can skip a start or two and get him back fully healthy.

Orenda
05-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Does anybody know how many options Homer has left?

jojo
05-21-2009, 05:40 PM
Wonder if he'll be ostracized.

Why would the Reds do that?!?

Hoosier Red
05-21-2009, 05:42 PM
Does anybody know how many options Homer has left?

This is his last Option YEAR but he can be sent back down and than back up as many times as the Reds want this year.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2009, 05:42 PM
Volquez underwent an MRI exam on Thursday morning, one day after persistent back soreness stopped his side bullpen session after a couple of pitches.

"It's muscular. Nothing in his vertebrae or anything like that," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "That's positive news. We just decided that instead of sending him out there 75-80 percent, we'll get him well and skip one start and get him back to 100 percent."

Volquez's DL stint is retroactive to Sunday. That means he could return as soon as June 1 when the Reds play the Cardinals.

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/

Will M
05-21-2009, 06:09 PM
Good decision by the Reds to disable Volquez. It looks like he'll only miss two starts. There's no sense in sending him out there at less than 100% when you can skip a start or two and get him back fully healthy.

yep. the 2009 Reds are better but look like a .500 team. No reason to get one of our young players hurt.

RedsManRick
05-21-2009, 06:10 PM
Can we trade Maloney already? He's got no role and he's only getting older. Surely somebody has to be interested in him. Even it's just for a low A arm with some upside, let's clear away some of the chaff.

Ltlabner
05-21-2009, 06:13 PM
Can we trade Maloney already? He's got no role and he's only getting older. Surely somebody has to be interested in him. Even it's just for a low A arm with some upside, let's clear away some of the chaff.

He's the guy we got for trading Kyle Loshe right?

Wasn't he a vaguely interesting arm at one point? What happened...he just never put it all together/didn't have enough talent?

LvJ
05-21-2009, 06:15 PM
What happens if [when!] Bailey comes up and pitches two gems?

Votto to 3rd, Owings to 1st? :D

Rojo
05-21-2009, 06:16 PM
He's the guy we got for trading Kyle Loshe right?

Wasn't he a vaguely interesting arm at one point? What happened...he just never put it all together/didn't have enough talent?

May not have enough talent but its hard to accuse of him of "not putting it together".

Rojo
05-21-2009, 06:19 PM
Can we trade Maloney already? He's got no role and he's only getting older. Surely somebody has to be interested in him. Even it's just for a low A arm with some upside, let's clear away some of the chaff.

They've got to get off the pot on a few pitchers -- Bailey (because of options, not age), Maloney, Roenicke, Viola, Manuel, Ramirez.

LvJ
05-21-2009, 06:24 PM
Maloney has 38 K and 6 BB in 44 innings and a 2.64 ERA.

I did not realize this.

SMcGavin
05-21-2009, 06:37 PM
Maloney has 38 K and 6 BB in 44 innings and a 2.64 ERA.


Out with the chaff!

redsfan4445
05-21-2009, 06:51 PM
NOW if we can see a Gomes for McDonald move before tomorrow nights game, that would make me even happier!!!

camisadelgolf
05-21-2009, 06:52 PM
Can we trade Maloney already? He's got no role and he's only getting older. Surely somebody has to be interested in him. Even it's just for a low A arm with some upside, let's clear away some of the chaff.
I'm not convinced he doesn't have a role with the team at some point. His K/BB rate continues to improve with his command, and although he's not as good of a prospect as his numbers indicate, he could possibly fill Arroyo's role and save the team a lot of money.

dougdirt
05-21-2009, 06:55 PM
Maloney has 38 K and 6 BB in 44 innings and a 2.64 ERA.

I did not realize this.
Unfortunately he is 25 and can barely throw 90 MPH. He has control and some decent offspeed pitches but in small samples of spring training against major leaguers has had his brains beat in. Just not sure he has the stuff to succeed outside of a large ballpark.

jojo
05-21-2009, 06:55 PM
Paging Matt Maloney, paging Matt Maloney. You have a phone call from John Stephens. :cool:

RedsManRick
05-21-2009, 07:03 PM
Out with the chaff!

If he's not going to pitch for us at the major league level, but somebody else would value him for his ability to do so, hanging on to him is a waste of assets. Perhaps chaff was the wrong word, but he'd do us more good by being converted in to something we can use. Hopefully he's part of a trade for an impact LF.

Frankly, I think he can be a solid back of the rotation guy in the majors. But I don't see that opportunity opening up for him in Cincinnati. They sure could use him in Oakland, New York, Anaheim, or San Diego though.

Patrick Bateman
05-21-2009, 08:05 PM
Pitchers get injured... a lot. Maloney would probably be next in line. He's likely not any more valuable in trade than he is as depth waiting in AAA.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2009, 08:13 PM
Pitchers get injured... a lot. Maloney would probably be next in line. He's likely not any more valuable in trade than he is as depth waiting in AAA.

This is my take. This pitching staff is not as great as their early ERA would suggest either. Tons more innings to log, non-contending year. Yeah, I'd keep him around.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2009, 08:19 PM
Why would the Reds do that?!?

They wouldn't -- just joshing.

SMcGavin
05-21-2009, 08:21 PM
Unfortunately he is 25 and can barely throw 90 MPH. He has control and some decent offspeed pitches but in small samples of spring training against major leaguers has had his brains beat in. Just not sure he has the stuff to succeed outside of a large ballpark.

Please tell me you did not just reference THREE INNINGS OF SPRING TRAINING STATISTICS as evidence a player won't succeed at the MLB level.

Rick, I do agree, if the Reds aren't going to use him they should trade him. And I think it's clear he's not going to get a chance here.

At any rate I am looking forward to seeing Bailey - I hope all the glowing reports about him from spring were true, and this stint in the majors is nothing like his previous ones.

mbgrayson
05-21-2009, 09:13 PM
Unfortunately he is 25 and can barely throw 90 MPH. He has control and some decent offspeed pitches but in small samples of spring training against major leaguers has had his brains beat in. Just not sure he has the stuff to succeed outside of a large ballpark.

Maloney does have one unqiue quality that none of our existing starters have: He throws with his left arm. That can be worth something even to soft-tossers; just ask leftie Jamie Moyer, age 103 and still in MLB. Seriously, the improving K/9 rate and only 6 BBs in 44 innings is real improvement.

dougdirt
05-21-2009, 09:24 PM
Maloney does have one unqiue quality that none of our existing starters have: He throws with his left arm. That can be worth something even to soft-tossers; just ask leftie Jamie Moyer, age 103 and still in MLB. Seriously, the improving K/9 rate and only 6 BBs in 44 innings is real improvement.

Which arm you throw with doesn't matter. What matters are results and ability to get results. Maloney has some serious questions about his ability to get major league hitters out.

thatcoolguy_22
05-21-2009, 09:24 PM
Please tell me you did not just reference THREE INNINGS OF SPRING TRAINING STATISTICS as evidence a player WILL succeed at the MLB level.



Is all I need to see from one, Optimus Prime. Anything more is wasting our scouting and sabr resources in unnecessary work. Opportunity cost being high and in this economy and all... :)

I hope Bailey comes up and is lights out. Back problems whether described as light or severe always leave me leery of that player. Its just one of those injuries that will pop up from time to time with absolute 0 warning and in the worst possible time. Hopefully Homer's first start he is channeling his inner 15k performance.

traderumor
05-21-2009, 09:41 PM
Matt Maloney is AAA fodder, nice to have around for a spot start, but not in the plans for the future. That should be evident by now, since he has pitched some good ball at Louisville for the last two years. My guess is that he is not being screwed, but just doesn't have major league stuff to be even a below average major league starter.

Will M
05-21-2009, 10:00 PM
Maloney gets little or no respect due to his not having awesome raw tools.
Similar situation with Rosales.

Bailey has awesome stuff & fans everywhere want him in Cincinnati blowing away hitters.

Problem is stuff does not equal results.

When a guy without awesome raw talent gets great results in AAA it is time for him to get a shot in the bigs. Some fail & become AAAA players. Others suceed. You don't know about guys like Maloney, Herrara & Rosales until you give them a shot.

Now, guys without awesome talent don't get to be TOR starters, closers or all star position players. they can however have long careers as MOR/BOR starters, middle relievers, bench guys or support players.
They also come cheap!

I personally think Maloney will get his shot here in Cincinnati.
I feel the 2009 Reds will hover around .500 because we have talent but just too many holes & question marks. Arroyo is a prime candidate to be moved in July. Maloney/Bailey/Owings could fight it out for the #4 & #5 rotation spots once Arroyo is gone.

jojo
05-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Maloney gets little or no respect due to his not having awesome raw tools.
Similar situation with Rosales.

There's a reason the fat, short, slow kid is picked last.


Problem is stuff does not equal results.


The problem with a lack of tools is that it almost never equals results.

It's not really all that mysterious. Scouts have a little history backing them up on this one.

RED VAN HOT
05-21-2009, 10:21 PM
I did not see this one coming. My hunch is that they wouldn't bring Bailey up for one start and waste an option year. I think they want to find out if he can stick in the rotation. They have probably received good reports on not only his stuff, but also his maturity.

If they were going to bring up Maloney, this would be the time for it. That they didn't indicates to me that their intent is to let him continue to build up good AAA stats and trade him. The fact that he was given only three spring training innings over two years tells me that the Reds do not value him highly.

Will M
05-21-2009, 10:23 PM
There's a reason the fat, short, slow kid is picked last.



The problem with a lack of tools is that it almost never equals results.

It's not really all that mysterious. Scouts have a little history backing them up on this one.


i am not saying guys like Maloney or Rosales are sure to be productive big league players. what i am saying is that they can be & that when they have really good AAA success (like an OPS of 1.2 or a whip of 1.1) then its time to see what they can or can't do in the bigs.

I am also saying that raw athletic ability does not equal big league success.
how many first round draft picks or Jim Bowden's infamous five tool players never did squat in the bigs? tons.

jojo
05-21-2009, 10:26 PM
I did not see this one coming. My hunch is that they wouldn't bring Bailey up for one start and waste an option year. I think they want to find out if he can stick in the rotation. They have probably received good reports on not only his stuff, but also his maturity.

If they were going to bring up Maloney, this would be the time for it. That they didn't indicates to me that their intent is to let him continue to build up good AAA stats and trade him. The fact that he was given only three spring training innings over two years tells me that the Reds do not value him highly.

His last option was already spent.

M2
05-21-2009, 10:38 PM
My hunch is that they wouldn't bring Bailey up for one start and waste an option year.

His option's already been used this year. It lasts for the whole year and the Reds can yo-yo him all season if they like.

As for Maloney, Aaron Harang didn't have stuff either. Then he did. Maloney's not going to be anybody's first choice, but if you're left-handed and keep tooling on AAA hitters you're going to get your shots over the years.

RED VAN HOT
05-22-2009, 12:00 AM
His option's already been used this year. It lasts for the whole year and the Reds can yo-yo him all season if they like.

As for Maloney, Aaron Harang didn't have stuff either. Then he did. Maloney's not going to be anybody's first choice, but if you're left-handed and keep tooling on AAA hitters you're going to get your shots over the years.

I may not understand the rule. If they had not called him up and didn't do so until after 1 September, would he still have an option year left? I assumed that he would. My understanding is that they can now yoyo him as often this year as they like. If he is put on the 25 next year, however, he must stay there, or, they risk losing him.

My point is that they would have carefully considered burning that last option year on a high ceiling talent that appears, at least to me, short of stepping into a ML rotation. They would not have done so if the intent was to have him make one start and go back to Louisville. If that were the case, it would have been smarter to call up someone else and let Bailey continue to develop this year.

As for Maloney, I am a fan. I have consistently taken the position that he will win after he adjusts to MLB. His best shot is in a big park with a team that can afford the learning curve. I believe the Reds are not willing to do that. I think they feel some urgency about at least contending this year.

HokieRed
05-22-2009, 12:09 AM
I doubt they've even been thinking about the option issue for Bailey. I'm sure they've known they would need him sometime during the season. If he's not ready to be kept on the 25 man at the end of the season, his future with the Reds is likely not going to be very productive anyway. I predict we'll need Maloney too at some point.

TheNext44
05-22-2009, 02:42 AM
I may not understand the rule. If they had not called him up and didn't do so until after 1 September, would he still have an option year left? I assumed that he would. My understanding is that they can now yoyo him as often this year as they like. If he is put on the 25 next year, however, he must stay there, or, they risk losing him.



The answer to the question in bold is no. The Reds already burned his last option when they optioned him at the end of spring training this season. Putting him on and off the 25 man roster this season has no effect on his options, since he doesn't have any left.

You are correct that next season, he must make the 25 man roster (or be DL'ed) when they break spring training, or else he will have to go through waivers.

Ron Madden
05-22-2009, 04:36 AM
I hope and pray Homer spins a gem Saturday, It'll do wonders for his confidence.

:thumbup:

fearofpopvol1
05-22-2009, 04:54 AM
I don't like this move. If they wanted to bring Homer up this year, that's fine. But it's too early. I'd bring up Maloney and give him a start.

cumberlandreds
05-22-2009, 07:44 AM
I hope and pray Homer spins a gem Saturday, It'll do wonders for his confidence.

:thumbup:

For his confidence and for the team as a whole. It's time for him to shine with the Reds. Is this his last chance with the Reds if he fails this go around?

flyer85
05-22-2009, 08:59 AM
IMO, Homer was chosen because he can stay on schedule. He just turned 23, sometimes it seems like he should be older.

If he is ever going to help the Reds his time is now.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:09 AM
If Homer comes up and kills, I hope the Reds do the right thing and demote either Arroyo or Owings to the pen. I don't care which one, but I'd hate to see a better pitcher kept out of the rotation because of money/"keeping people happy" concerns.

lollipopcurve
05-22-2009, 09:11 AM
If he is ever going to help the Reds his time is now.

Why? He can go back to AAA after this start, pitch there all year and make a run at the rotation next year. If he's not ready for a rotation spot at the beginning of next year, they can make him a long man/spot starter and have him spend his age 24 season, and first full year in the majors, in that way. Then, at age 25 in 2011, he could join the rotation full-time for the first time.

No way is it now or never.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:17 AM
If Homer comes up and kills, I hope the Reds do the right thing and demote either Arroyo or Owings to the pen. I don't care which one, but I'd hate to see a better pitcher kept out of the rotation because of money/"keeping people happy" concerns.Yes, those are the primary things keeping Homer and others out of the rotation, money and "keeping people happy." There is quite the history of that with managing the pitching staff.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:19 AM
Yes, those are the primary things keeping Homer and others out of the rotation, money and "keeping people happy." There is quite the history of that with managing the pitching staff.

It happens all the time all over MLB. Are you seriously suggesting that seniority, money, or options don't play a role in MLB roster construction?

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:27 AM
It happens all the time all over MLB. Are you seriously suggesting that seniority, money, or options don't play a role in MLB roster construction?Oh, you were making a broad, sweeping generalization. I don't find those helpful.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:29 AM
Oh, you were making a broad, sweeping generalization. I don't find those helpful.

Because it happens a lot and it's stupid a lot doesn't make it any less a problem.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:35 AM
Because it happens a lot and it's stupid a lot doesn't make it any less a problem....says the career minor leaguer, who is convinced he never got his chance because of the great inefficiencies that everyone but the people making the decisions clearly recognize.

M2
05-22-2009, 09:36 AM
I may not understand the rule. If they had not called him up and didn't do so until after 1 September, would he still have an option year left? I assumed that he would. My understanding is that they can now yoyo him as often this year as they like. If he is put on the 25 next year, however, he must stay there, or, they risk losing him.

That's not how it works. The option year gets used when a player is on the 40-man roster, but not the 25-man roster. For instance, Maloney is on the 40-man roster (otherwise he'd be exposed to waivers), but not in the majors - thus he is burning an option year.

So Bailey's option year in 2009 got triggered when he didn't make the 25-man roster out of spring training. If he stays with the Reds beyond this year, he has to stay on the 25-man roster or be exposed to irrevocable waivers.

And because the option was already triggered, his current callup has nothing to do with his option situation.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2009, 09:37 AM
...says the career minor leaguer, who is convinced he never got his chance because of the great inefficiencies that everyone but the people making the decisions clearly recognize.

I'm not saying Bailey's earned a darn thing, but I'm also not so naive to think that teams don't get blinded by money or seniority when making highly important roster decisions.

Right now we've got two guys working very hard at ripping a hole in the hull of the ship (Arroyo/Owings) and two guys doing everything humanly possible to bail water (Cueto/Harang) and a guy lying on the deck with sunstroke (Volquez). The ship's on its way down unless someone can step up.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm not saying Bailey's earned a darn thing, but I'm also not so naive to think that teams don't get blindsided by money or seniority when making highly important roster decisions.Sure this happens. I just haven't seen the post-Bowden Reds being guilty of this much at all. They have been holding open tryouts for many positions for most of the decade. The Reds, because of a lack of talent and depth, have been the land of opportunity for years.

M2
05-22-2009, 10:06 AM
If he's not ready for a rotation spot at the beginning of next year, they can make him a long man/spot starter and have him spend his age 24 season, and first full year in the majors, in that way.

I don't think the Reds think that's an option.

We'll see if Bailey gets any relief work this season. Masset's injury was a golden opportunity to give Bailey a crack at long relief. It didn't happen. Whatever the billion reasons for that may be, it didn't happen. More to the point, it never happens with Bailey. He's been used exclusively as a starter since 2005 when it was widely reported the organization deemed him particularly ill-suited for relief.

So my guess is, rather than carry Bailey in a relief role the Reds will trade Bailey if he can't make the 2010 rotation. I agree this start doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but this year does. Bailey needs to finish 2009 in a position to be handed a rotation slot in 2010.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 10:10 AM
I don't think the Reds think that's an option.

We'll see if Bailey gets any relief work this season. Masset's injury was a golden opportunity to give Bailey a crack at long relief. It didn't happen. Whatever the billion reasons for that may be, it didn't happen. More to the point, it never happens with Bailey. He's been used exclusively as a starter since 2005 when it was widely reported the organization deemed him particularly ill-suited for relief.

So my guess is, rather than carry Bailey in a relief role the Reds will trade Bailey if he can't make the 2010 rotation. I agree this start doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but this year does. Bailey needs to finish 2009 in a position to be handed a rotation slot in 2010.As much as I've been hoping this will happen, the probability seems to be shrinking with each passing year in the organization. Hope I'm wrong.

REDREAD
05-22-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't think the Reds think that's an option.

We'll see if Bailey gets any relief work this season. Masset's injury was a golden opportunity to give Bailey a crack at long relief. It didn't happen. Whatever the billion reasons for that may be, it didn't happen. More to the point, it never happens with Bailey. He's been used exclusively as a starter since 2005 when it was widely reported the organization deemed him particularly ill-suited for relief.

So my guess is, rather than carry Bailey in a relief role the Reds will trade Bailey if he can't make the 2010 rotation. I agree this start doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but this year does. Bailey needs to finish 2009 in a position to be handed a rotation slot in 2010.


That's my take too. My guess is that Walt willl know by the end of the season whether he wants to trade Homer or not. I really think the decision will be made before spring training 2010. If they feel Homer can tread water next season in the rotation, perhaps another starter gets traded instead.

I guess I don't see Walt waiting until the end of spring training 2010 and then trying to trade the optionless Homer at a time when most teams do not have room to add another project.

But yeah, the Reds clearly don't even want to try Homer in relief, for whatever reason.

BCubb2003
05-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Didn't see this elsewhere, but according to C. Trent, Gomes is up, McDonald is DFA'd.

Kc61
05-22-2009, 11:42 AM
I don't like this move. If they wanted to bring Homer up this year, that's fine. But it's too early. I'd bring up Maloney and give him a start.


Based upon my layman's knowledge I would agree that Homer should be given more AAA time this year, let him polish up the product, keep working on his command, and come up later in the season. This may happen anyway, they may just keep him for a start or two and send him back.

But it's really impossible to say what's right unless you are very knowledgeable about Homer's development and his current performance. He has a great arm and when the pros think he is ready he should be given a chance promptly. His strikeout rate is good this year, his walks are down. The glaring stat is that he's allowed 9 AAA home runs so far. Maybe he's trying to cut the walks down resulting in some more long balls against him.

The key piece of paper is the scouting report on HB. If anyone has watched him extensively, I'd like to know what they think about bringing him up at this point.

HeatherC1212
05-22-2009, 11:53 AM
They're probably only bringing him up to help cover for Volquez's injury and then when Edinson is healthy again, Homer will be back in Louisville. I don't think they wanted to bring him up this soon but felt it was necessary to get Volquez healthy again. I'm interested to see Homer pitch tomorrow night because I haven't seen him pitch live at GABP yet. :)

fearofpopvol1
05-22-2009, 02:29 PM
Based upon my layman's knowledge I would agree that Homer should be given more AAA time this year, let him polish up the product, keep working on his command, and come up later in the season. This may happen anyway, they may just keep him for a start or two and send him back.

But it's really impossible to say what's right unless you are very knowledgeable about Homer's development and his current performance. He has a great arm and when the pros think he is ready he should be given a chance promptly. His strikeout rate is good this year, his walks are down. The glaring stat is that he's allowed 9 AAA home runs so far. Maybe he's trying to cut the walks down resulting in some more long balls against him.

The key piece of paper is the scouting report on HB. If anyone has watched him extensively, I'd like to know what they think about bringing him up at this point.

I'm certainly no expert, but I've looked at his stats and continue to do so with each start and by my judgment, he's still not ready. He has improved this year...no doubt about that. But he has some numbers that are red flags (HR allowed, WHIP, Hits allowed etc). I think if he spends a few more months down there, then he should be called up (provided it's not a disaster).

The 2 real questions that should be asked are a.) are the reds going to give a serious shot at competing this year and b.) is Homer right now a better option than Matt Maloney is? I don't know the answer to "a." It's probably soon to fairly say, but the answer to "B," based on numbers is "no." And no, I'm not suggesting Maloney has better "stuff" than Homer does. Homer clearly has the higher ceiling. But I'll take the guy succeeding now, particularly while we're still in the thick of things.

mth123
05-22-2009, 06:13 PM
I'm in the Homer needs more AAA camp. I still point to his IP seasonal lines. He's not ever really thrown a starter's workload. I hope he does well but hope this is temporary for now.

Scrap Irony
05-22-2009, 07:13 PM
In seeing Bailey this year, he certainly passes the look test much better than does anyone else in Louisville, no matter who they may be. But he still finds ways to get himself into trouble. I don't know how many times he's allowed a seeing eye single or a bloop double or some other bad luck hit then a home run.

Bailey hasn't yet learned the art of damage control.

Whether he needs to learn that in order to be brought to the bigs, I don't know. But I'm certain he needs to learn it before he's successful in the bigs.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 10:22 PM
An acid test with Homer is if he continues to trust his stuff and throw strikes as he has in AAA. He has come up here before, showing good control in the minors, then getting up here and pitching scared, nibble, nibble, fall behind, groove, BOOM! If he has grown and is near major league ready, I expect to see some strike zone pounding and missing bats like he has done at AAA.

TRF
05-22-2009, 10:29 PM
An acid test with Homer is if he continues to trust his stuff and throw strikes as he has in AAA. He has come up here before, showing good control in the minors, then getting up here and pitching scared, nibble, nibble, fall behind, groove, BOOM! If he has grown and is near major league ready, I expect to see some strike zone pounding and missing bats like he has done at AAA.

Continue? he had a fantastic start a few weeks ago and has been average to below since.

All Matt Maloney does is thrive and get passed over. Dude needs pics of Jocketty in a hotel room with a Kodiak Bear. Maybe he can get copies from Homer.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 10:32 PM
Continue? he had a fantastic start a few weeks ago and has been average to below since.

All Matt Maloney does is thrive and get passed over. Dude needs pics of Jocketty in a hotel room with a Kodiak Bear. Maybe he can get copies from Homer.One vote for Free Matt Maloney

LvJ
05-22-2009, 10:34 PM
Continue? he had a fantastic start a few weeks ago and has been average to below since.

All Matt Maloney does is thrive and get passed over. Dude needs pics of Jocketty in a hotel room with a Kodiak Bear. Maybe he can get copies from Homer.:bowrofl:

TRF
05-22-2009, 10:40 PM
One vote for Free Matt Maloney


Maloney tonight. 7IP 6H 1R 0ER 1BB 3K's

ERA stands at 2.28

Bailey can't sniff a 2.28 ERA unless he's standing next to Johnny Cueto.

LvJ
05-22-2009, 10:42 PM
Maloney tonight. 7IP 6H 1R 0ER 1BB 3K's

ERA stands at 2.28

Bailey can't sniff a 2.28 ERA unless he's standing next to Johnny Cueto. I'm in the Maloney club. :beerme:

TRF
05-22-2009, 10:42 PM
BTW, I really, REALLY want Bailey to blow away the Indians tomorrow. But had he not been a 1st round pick, he'd still be in AA. completely mismanaged by WK and Jocketty.

traderumor
05-22-2009, 11:19 PM
I wish Maloney would get a call up. Then, he could get knocked around and all this silliness could end before the September callups.

Eric_the_Red
05-23-2009, 12:06 AM
I wish Maloney would get a call up. Then, he could get knocked around and all this silliness could end before the September callups.

Seems like a peculiar wish for a Reds fan. You'd rather a player fail for the Reds to quiet his supporters than succeed and be wrong on your analysis of said player?

traderumor
05-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Seems like a peculiar wish for a Reds fan. You'd rather a player fail for the Reds to quiet his supporters than succeed and be wrong on your analysis of said player?You win! It took longer than I thought for that response. It is a matter of having surgery and getting it over with than continuing to feel the pain all summer from wishful thinking about some AAA fodder that is not a positive answer to any question the Reds might have. Plus, it isn't that I'd rather have a player fail, it is a matter of that being the highest probability for a Matt Maloney type talent. I would love to live in a world where every player the Reds had succeeded. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way, whether I'm a fan of the team or not.

SMcGavin
05-23-2009, 11:53 AM
I wish Maloney would get a call up. Then, he could get knocked around and all this silliness could end before the September callups.

Generally when people on this board accuse others of wanting Reds players to fail, it's a misunderstanding. But I don't know how else to interpret this one. If you think Maloney sucks you should pray he stays in AAA so the Reds can win more... but I guess that's less important than proving those other guys wrong?

westofyou
05-23-2009, 12:04 PM
Generally when people on this board accuse others of wanting Reds players to fail, it's a misunderstanding. But I don't know how else to interpret this one. If you think Maloney sucks you should pray he stays in AAA so the Reds can win more... but I guess that's less important than proving those other guys wrong?

I think the point TR is making is being missed.

Every year the call for a AAA player over and over is heard.. he can do it etc... the other guys sucks, Blank is wasting away while Blank sucks here in Cincinnati.

Well the good AAA blanks have been fewer in numbers over the past season then the calls for them to save the franchise. All TR is saying is that he wishes MM would come up and quantify the calls for his savior status. He doesn't think he'll succeed and wishes that if he's not going to succeed (like Brian Shackleford or any other guy that gets numerous calls from posters) then he'd prefer it happen sooner than later.

It's not that he doesn't want MM to succeed, it's just that he has little faith that it's a slam dunk.

traderumor
05-23-2009, 12:18 PM
I think the point TR is making is being missed.

Every year the call for a AAA player over and over is heard.. he can do it etc... the other guys sucks, Blank is wasting away while Blank sucks here in Cincinnati.

Well the good AAA blanks have been fewer in numbers over the past season then the calls for them to save the franchise. All TR is saying is that he wishes MM would come up and quantify the calls for his savior status. He doesn't think he'll succeed and wishes that if he's not going to succeed (like Brian Shackleford or any other guy that gets numerous calls from posters) then he'd prefer it happen sooner than later.

It's not that he doesn't want MM to succeed, it's just that he has little faith that it's a slam dunk.Yep. Of course, when he is brought up, shows everyone why the Reds were reluctant to bring him up, then the cry becomes "the FO stinks, can't they find any good players?" Oh, and the sun will come up in the East tomorrow.

SMcGavin
05-23-2009, 12:25 PM
I think the point TR is making is being missed.

Every year the call for a AAA player over and over is heard.. he can do it etc... the other guys sucks, Blank is wasting away while Blank sucks here in Cincinnati.

Well the good AAA blanks have been fewer in numbers over the past season then the calls for them to save the franchise. All TR is saying is that he wishes MM would come up and quantify the calls for his savior status. He doesn't think he'll succeed and wishes that if he's not going to succeed (like Brian Shackleford or any other guy that gets numerous calls from posters) then he'd prefer it happen sooner than later.

It's not that he doesn't want MM to succeed, it's just that he has little faith that it's a slam dunk.

I might be the biggest Maloney supporter here and not even I think it's a slam dunk. The whole "savior" thing gets so overblown... I have not seen a single poster on Redszone who's called Maloney more than a potential league average starter. I don't think anyone wanted him in the rotation out of Spring Training either. People are calling for him to get a couple of starts while Volquez is hurt.

I know what you are saying about people latching on to AAA guys, but when I think one of those guys is no good, I don't root for him to get called up. I root for him to stay in the minors where he won't hurt the Reds.

The two positions taken were:
1. I think Maloney is not very good and likely to get hit hard in the bigs
2. I hope Maloney gets called up

I don't see how it's possible to root for the Reds to win and also hold both of those positions.

HokieRed
05-23-2009, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=SMcGavin;1874843

The two positions taken were:
1. I think Maloney is not very good and likely to get hit hard in the bigs
2. I hope Maloney gets called up

I don't see how it's possible to root for the Reds to win and also hold both of those positions.[/QUOTE]

I'm actually a moderate Maloney supporter. I think he will get called up later in the season, either from necessity or because Homer is able to hold down a rotation spot, Arroyo is moved, and the competition is on between Owings and Maloney (and possibly Masset) for #5. So I think we'll see Maloney and if he just keeps doing what he's doing now, he's going to have a major league career.

That's said, just as a matter of logic, I do think you could conceivably hold both the positions above and still root for the Reds. You could hold #2 because you think he deserves the shot and it's best for any organization to promote people when they've earned it, and you could hold #1 if you also thought it possible your estimation of Maloney was wrong and you hoped that you would be proven wrong.

Will M
05-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Generally when people on this board accuse others of wanting Reds players to fail, it's a misunderstanding. But I don't know how else to interpret this one. If you think Maloney sucks you should pray he stays in AAA so the Reds can win more... but I guess that's less important than proving those other guys wrong?

yep. I think there are about a dozen posters here who hold the following position: if i think player A stinks & post than then i want them to fail. i would rather be right than have the Reds win.

Scooter, this is why the "ignore poster" button is so good.

traderumor
05-23-2009, 11:25 PM
I hope Matt Maloney comes up, pitches a double no-hitter, wins three Cy Young's, and you can all rub it in my face daily. Does that make everyone feel better? Does that qualify me for being a Reds fan? Really, I am sorry a few of you don't understand, but WOY couldn't make it much clearer what my sarcastic comment was trying to communicate. I'm going out and buy a big Reds #1 foam finger tomorrow as penance.

jojo
05-23-2009, 11:32 PM
C'mon guys. The notion that people are rooting against the Reds in order to win an argument (on a board they frequent because they are first and foremost a Reds fan!!!!) is just not likely on the face of it.

Also debating a person's motives when a simple question via PM could settle the issue at best significantly decreases the quality of conversation and at worst can lead to a thread being poisoned.

OnBaseMachine
05-24-2009, 01:50 AM
I was impressed with Bailey's stuff tonight. He had very good velocity and movement on his fastball, but of course none of that matters when you can't locate it. I think he clearly needs some more time in the minors. He shouldn't have been called up in the first place, IMO. The Reds just can't resist rushing him. I'd keep him in Louisville for the rest of the season unless he totally dominates the competition and forces his way back up. I still think he's got a bright future ahead of him but he needs some more seasoning in the minors.

Razor Shines
05-24-2009, 06:19 AM
I was impressed with Bailey's stuff tonight. He had very good velocity and movement on his fastball, but of course none of that matters when you can't locate it. I think he clearly needs some more time in the minors. He shouldn't have been called up in the first place, IMO. The Reds just can't resist rushing him. I'd keep him in Louisville for the rest of the season unless he totally dominates the competition and forces his way back up. I still think he's got a bright future ahead of him but he needs some more seasoning in the minors.

Yeah, I don't think that last night's start should have changed anyone's mind on him one way or the other. If you thought he was a bust before last night, obviously nothing to change your mind. If you thought he has a bright future before last night, I really didn't see anything that would change your mind about that either.

_Sir_Charles_
05-24-2009, 10:26 AM
I'm not convinced that even the Reds wanted to bring him up. I think it was about the timing. It was too close to Maloney's time to pitch, Ramon was already used in relief a few days ago, the last viable option was Homer (unless I've figured the Louisville rotation incorrectly...and that wouldn't surprise me if I did). Bringing him up now doesn't seem like "rushing him" to me seeing as how he's already had multiple cups of coffee. He's at an age now where he SHOULD be able to handle the bigs. I still would've preferred that he stayed down at Louisville...simply for the consistancy of a full season in one place.

Chip R
05-24-2009, 10:32 AM
I'm afraid Homer hasn't really improved over last year. Perhaps the best you can say is that he's giving up fewer home runs but that's about it. This Indians team he faced last night wasn't exactly the hardest hitting team out there. I shudder to think what he would have done against the Phillies. I certainly thought he turned the corner in ST and he should have made the team over Massett. I couldn't have been more wrong. Massett has been a pleasant surprise and Homer has not progressed.

Kc61
05-24-2009, 10:44 AM
If you review Homer's minor league stats you see a guy who is improving but not ready. His walks have been a problem but now that's improving. His K rate is solid. Other hand, his homers allowed spiked up at AAA this year, he's allowed nine. His AAA ERA this year is 4.57.

Just speculating but I think they chose to bring up Homer because he has major league experience, Maloney doesn't. Can't agree with this decision. As many have said consistently, just leave Homer at AAA and leave him alone for this year. Let him develop. Stop with the yo-yo thing already.

Maloney, on the other hand, is clearly ready to graduate from AAA. He is having a tremendous year with an ERA of 2.28, 7.19 Ks per nine innings, only 1.23 per nine. Despite fly ball tendencies, he's allowed only 3 home runs.

Maloney may have a lower ceiling than Bailey, but the Reds should have brought Maloney up this time. Maloney is readier. If not this time, then next time, he is the guy. If they are going to trade him, this is the time because somebody out there will use him in the major leagues this year.

TRF
05-24-2009, 11:32 AM
I was impressed with Bailey's stuff tonight. He had very good velocity and movement on his fastball, but of course none of that matters when you can't locate it. I think he clearly needs some more time in the minors. He shouldn't have been called up in the first place, IMO. The Reds just can't resist rushing him. I'd keep him in Louisville for the rest of the season unless he totally dominates the competition and forces his way back up. I still think he's got a bright future ahead of him but he needs some more seasoning in the minors.

ding, ding, ding.

I don't think Maloney, or Alonso, or Soto or any other player in the minors is a savior.

I do think the LH starter at AAA with good K/9 numbers and good CONTROL can be an asset. He at least deserves a look.

LoganBuck
05-24-2009, 11:41 AM
Homer is just so maddening. If he didn't have the stuff, it wouldn't be so bad. I doubt there are reams of Cleveland Indian fans yelling about Jeremy Sowers not panning out, because Sowers doesn't have TOR talent stuffwise. Homer is so infuriating because he obviously has the talent. He just can't harness it, and when he is behind in the count, the hitters know he is going to throw a fastball, because he can't throw a breaking ball for a strike.

Bob C, Wayne Krivsky, Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker, Jerry Narron, Dick Pole, Reds fans, and whoever else you want to point out have failed him, and Homer has failed all of us. The blame can get thrown around, the problem is that because the Reds rushed him, he may never develop, or if he does it will be for some guy like Dave Duncan several years down the road. I was a big defender of Homer, and have rooted for him in every start. He just doesn't get it yet. I am afraid that as Reds fans, we won't ever see it from him.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2009, 01:06 PM
From Lance's blog:

Thoughts on Bailey
I know Homer Bailey is frustrating.
I know he gets behind too many hitters and walks too many hitters.
I know we've questioned his maturity at times.
But I get the biggest kick out of people that believe it is time to give up on him.
That's a fantasy baseball way of thinking...just trade him....and move on.
How and why would you give up on a just turned 23-year old and former 1st round draft pick?
He has made 18 ML starts and pitched a grand total of 86 innings in the big leagues.
Give the kid a break....or at least give him some patience.
What is the rush? Why does he have to "get it" on your time?
As Baseball America's JJ Cooper related to me last week..."A scout told me that RH HS pitchers taken in the first round tend to make their first team look bad and their second team look good. Translation: Teams give up on guys too early. I asked JJ what we might be saying about Homer in five years. He said, "that he's a pretty good #3 starter...and on this team, behind Cueto and Volquez, that's not bad."
Had Homer gone to college he would have graduated last May.
He would now be pitching in his first professional season.
David Price of Tampa (Aug. 26, 1985) is about nine months older than Bailey (May 3, 1986).
Bailey is about two months older than Philips Hughes of the Yankees (June 24, 1986).
Heck, I don't know...maybe Homer will be a bust. I just don't know how anyone can call him a bust right now.
Former Reds Asst GM/host of Extra Innings, Doc Rogers, said Homer would still be a first round pick if he were coming out this season.
The Reds have a 2.3 million dollar investment in him.
If he were a stock when the Reds drafted him why would you sell that stock now?
Why give up on him after 18 ML starts? What is the hurry?

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

BRM
05-26-2009, 01:08 PM
What is the hurry? I'd say it's the fact that this is his last option year.

Team Clark
05-26-2009, 01:16 PM
What is the hurry? I'd say it's the fact that this is his last option year.

That would be a big issue for me if I were the Reds brass. What I still can not get my head wrapped around is this.... The ONLY pitching coach that Homer has had ANY success with in the Reds farm system was let go over...wait for it...Money. The Reds have 2.3 Million invested in Homer and they couldn't give Tom Brown (Not Browning) an extra 10k? I would say that is amazing but it's not. Tom did a very nice job with Homer and really smoothed him out at extended ST in Sarasota. Not to mention he had him pitching with confidence. That has all but disappeared.