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Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 12:11 PM
Per Fay

Willy Taveras cf
Jerry Hairston 2b
Chris Dickerson lf
Jonny Gomes rf
Ramon Hernandez c
Alex Gonzalez ss
Adam Rosales 1b
Paul Janish 3b
Aaron Harang p

vs. LHP Wandy Rodriguez.

Joey Votto is still dealing with the after-effects of the inner ear infections. Brandon Phillips is dealing with the hairline fracture of his right thumb. Jay Bruce, hitless in his last 13 at-bats, is getting a day off. "Other than Votto, Dickerson hits lefties the best of our left-handed hitters," Dusty Baker said.

And now here is the Astros lineup:
M. Bourn cf
M. Tejada ss
L. Berkman 1b
C. Lee lf
H. Pence rf
I. Rodriguez c
K. Matsui 2b
J. Keppinger 3b
W. Rodriguez p

Caveat Emperor
05-25-2009, 01:37 PM
It'll defy logic completely, but somehow this lineup will score 10 runs off Wandy Rodriguez.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 01:44 PM
That lineup is multiple types of ugly.

toledodan
05-25-2009, 01:45 PM
all i can say is yuck. if i was at the game i would ask for a refund. is this louisville?:D

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 01:47 PM
I wonder if Harang is considering calling in sick.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 01:58 PM
I don't know how well Keppinger will do but Geoff Blum is 10 for 17 against Harang and isn't starting.

VR
05-25-2009, 02:04 PM
Aaron would have preferred a swift kick to the crotch and the day off.

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Three runs win this game.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:13 PM
Bourn lines a single to center.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Bourn steals 2nd.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:15 PM
Tejada lines out to Rosales. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:16 PM
Berkman continues to kill the Reds with a homer to right. 2-0 Astros.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:16 PM
Three runs win this game.

You can still change your mind.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 02:16 PM
that pitch was RIGHT down the MIDDLE of the plate to berkman

CTA513
05-25-2009, 02:16 PM
Hitting .225 and of course he kills the Reds

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:16 PM
That didn't take long.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:17 PM
The Astros are killing Harang right now. Lee triples to left center.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:18 PM
This is ugly. Harang does not cover first on a groundball to Rosales and everyone is safe.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 02:18 PM
Can't give teams extra outs

VR
05-25-2009, 02:19 PM
Harang still has his mind on the lineup card.

edabbs44
05-25-2009, 02:19 PM
Someone must have told this team that Memorial Day is a day off.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:20 PM
Rodriguez strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:20 PM
An out here and its still a game.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:21 PM
Matsui grounds out to Harang. 2-0 Astros mid 1st.

VR
05-25-2009, 02:21 PM
Cowboy advocating Harang needing to deal some chin music so the 'stros quit punking him.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 02:21 PM
mercifully, the inning ended with the astros only scoring two runs...

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:22 PM
OK. The stuff after the homer looked bad but did no damage. Somehow this group needs to score some runs.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 02:22 PM
Cowboy advocating Harang needing to deal some chin music so the 'stros quit punking him.

That would be better then continuing to throw pitches right down the middle.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:24 PM
Anyone else think that ugly play at 1B was the result of Rosales ranging too far instead of letting the 2B take it and covering first? Harang should have covered, but Rosales strayed too far IMO.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 02:24 PM
i didn't like the way that taveras was backing up the cabrera hit off the wall...on top of that, the poor throw allowed him to get all the way to third...granted the run didn't score, but with a better play, i think he should have only been on second...

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:24 PM
And here comes future first ballot HOFer, Wandy Rodriguez.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:25 PM
Taveras reaches on an error by Tejada

4256 Hits
05-25-2009, 02:25 PM
Umm the date is wrong; with the way the line-up looks like this it has to be sometime in September.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Perfect bunt for a hit by Hairston. 1st and 2nd

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:26 PM
i didn't like the way that taveras was backing up the cabrera hit off the wall...on top of that, the poor throw allowed him to get all the way to third...granted the run didn't score, but with a better play, i think he should have only been on second...

Agree. This team is improved in RF and sometimes at SS, but most of last years defensive problems remain. Nice Bunt hit for Hairston.

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Small ball.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Good idea to have Dickerson bunting IMO.

Dom Heffner
05-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Why does a guy who is slugging .600 plus against lefties bunt?

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:28 PM
4 pitch walk to Dickerson. Bases loaded no outs for Gomes.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Loaded for Gomes.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Good idea to have Dickerson bunting IMO.

IMO it's a better idea to let him walk. :D

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 02:28 PM
bases juiced...no outs...we've got to score at least 3 runs this inning...get to him early and often

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:29 PM
Gomes lines a single to center. 2-1 Astros. Bases still loaded.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:29 PM
Why does a guy who is slugging .600 plus against lefties bunt?

Any slugging in this line-up outside of Gomes and maybe Hernandez is purely accidental.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 02:30 PM
Gomes has already done more for the Reds in 4 games than McDonald did in 40

Chip R
05-25-2009, 02:30 PM
Anyone else think that ugly play at 1B was the result of Rosales ranging too far instead of letting the 2B take it and covering first? Harang should have covered, but Rosales strayed too far IMO.


Maybe. But he's not a natural 1st baseman and he's such a high energy guy he's going to go after anything in his area.

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:30 PM
Gomes says more than three runs will win this game. You never know with this team.

Chip R
05-25-2009, 02:31 PM
Gomes has already done more for the Reds in 4 games than McDonald did in 40


McDonald gave us more unintentional comedy than Gomes has.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:32 PM
Maybe. But he's not a natural 1st baseman and he's such a high energy guy he's going to go after anything in his area.

That doesn't make it right. It makes him Freel.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 02:32 PM
Crap. Ramon hurting. We cannot afford to lose our fourth best hitter after already losing the top 3

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:33 PM
Hernandez pops out to 3rd. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:35 PM
Gonzalez grounds into a 3-6 FC. Tie game 2-2. Runners on 1st and 3rd.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:36 PM
Rosales lines a single to left. 3-2 Reds! 1st and 2nd.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:36 PM
Big hit Rosales.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Big hit Janish.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Janish singles to left. 4-2 Reds! 1st and 2nd.

Hoosier Red
05-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Boom boom boom go the big red bats!

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Janish rips a single. Crazy performance by the offense so far.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Anybody think this line-up scores 4 in the first inning? I didn't think they'd score 4 in a week. Make it 5. Harang with a big knock.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Harang singles to center. Rosales beats the throw home. 5-2 Reds!!

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
HAHA

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Wow. Thats all I cant say. Thats more runs so far in this first inning than I thought we would score in this whole series

VR
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Boom boom boom go the big red bats!

I think we all knew this was coming after seeing today's lineup card....

NC Reds
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Harangatuan gets a knock too. Wild stuff.

Hoosier Red
05-25-2009, 02:38 PM
When you give up back to back hits to Paul Janish and Aaron Harang, you're officially not having a good day.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 02:39 PM
Better not break up this awesome lineup.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 02:39 PM
Agree. This team is improved in RF and sometimes at SS, but most of last years defensive problems remain.

The Reds DER is ranked 5th in the majors at .713, which equates to a .287 BABIP allowed.

Considering we were last or near last most of the last few years, that's a huge improvemnt.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:39 PM
Wow, they gave Willy a hit earlier?

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:40 PM
They scored the ball Taveras hit as a single so the Reds have 6 hits this inning.

Chip R
05-25-2009, 02:40 PM
That doesn't make it right. It makes him Freel.


Would have it been better if he let that ball go by him into the OF? There's no guarantee Hairston fields that ball and keeps Lee at 3rd. That's why they have PFP during ST. Harang has to break for 1st automatically when a ball is hit to 1st.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:40 PM
Rodriguez acting like he's injured to save face?;)

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:41 PM
Taveras flies out to center. 5-2 Reds after 1.

Chip R
05-25-2009, 02:42 PM
Rodrigiez acting like he's injured to save face?;)


"Oh, my arm! I think it's broken!"

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 02:42 PM
When you give up back to back hits to Paul Janish and Aaron Harang, you're officially not having a good day.

Paul Janish, the over .300 hitter this season? (SSS)

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 02:43 PM
At this rate the score will be 45-18.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 02:43 PM
I think they might had done more in that 1 inning then they have done against Rodriguez in his 2 other starts against the Reds.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:45 PM
Keppinger lines a single to left center.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:46 PM
Rodriguez attempts a bunt and fouls out to Hernandez. 1 out.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 02:46 PM
I think Wandy dropped the F-bomb about sixteen times in 15 seconds.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:46 PM
Would have it been better if he let that ball go by him into the OF? There's no guarantee Hairston fields that ball and keeps Lee at 3rd. That's why they have PFP during ST. Harang has to break for 1st automatically when a ball is hit to 1st.

No arguing that Harang screwed up. I'd like to see it again, but that seemed like it was Hairston's ball to field.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 02:46 PM
Just noticed that. Reds with 4 SS's in the infield.

toledodan
05-25-2009, 02:47 PM
line out to left 2 down.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:47 PM
Bourn lines out to left. 2 outs.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:48 PM
Just noticed that. Reds with 4 SS's in the infield.

At this point only one really - and he's playing 3B.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:50 PM
Tejada flies out to center. 5-2 Reds mid 2nd.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 02:52 PM
Just noticed that. Reds with 4 SS's in the infield.


Even Tony Larussa would be envious.....

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:52 PM
Hairston flies out to right on the first pitch. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:53 PM
Ivan Rodriguez has left the game. Possibly hurt on that play at the plate.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:53 PM
Dickerson strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:54 PM
Gomes pops out to 2nd. 5-2 Reds after 2.

VR
05-25-2009, 02:55 PM
With Wandy's pitch count rising, 5 consecutive batters swing at the 1st pitch.

VR
05-25-2009, 02:56 PM
With Wandy's pitch count rising, 5 consecutive batters swing at the 1st pitch.

Make it 6.

Supposed to get more patient when you've got him on the ropes....not let him off the hook.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 02:57 PM
Berkman doubles to center on a ball totally misplayed by Taveras.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 02:58 PM
Make it 6.

Supposed to get more patient when you've got him on the ropes....not let him off the hook.


The first two of those swings knocked in runs.

And nobody complained.

mth123
05-25-2009, 02:59 PM
Berkman doubles to center on a ball totally misplayed by Taveras.

Taveras athleticism makes up for poor technique. That was a pretty tough play though.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 02:59 PM
Berkman doubles to center on a ball totally misplayed by Taveras.

agreed...should have been caught

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Lee grounds out to 3rd. 1 out.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Taveras athleticism makes up for poor technique. That was a pretty tough play though.

:thumbup:

VR
05-25-2009, 03:01 PM
The first two of those swings knocked in runs.

And nobody complained.

No kidding, that's why I didn't post it until the 4th and 5th guys did it.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:02 PM
Pence with another infield hit as Harang can't get to the base in time. 1st and 3rd.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:02 PM
agreed...should have been caught

Catchable for sure.....but that ball was hit as hard as a ball can be hit on a line.

Chip R
05-25-2009, 03:03 PM
Why does Berkman even get pitched to?

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:03 PM
Quintero singles to left. 5-3 Reds. 1st and 2nd.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Harang getting squeezed a bit against Matsui

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Strike 'em out, throw 'em out. Nice.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Quintero singles to left. 5-3 Reds. 1st and 2nd.

The Berkman double past Taveras comes back to bite them.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:06 PM
Nice.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:06 PM
Double play! Matsui strikes out swinging and the runner is thrown out attempting to steal 3rd. 5-3 Reds mid 3rd.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 03:06 PM
strike em out throw em out...thing of beauty to get out of the inning...

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:08 PM
Taveras' hit in 1st changed to an error.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Razor Ramon with a leadoff double.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:09 PM
8 hits through 3 for Houston, with a CS and three hard liners for outs. Could be much, much worse....hopefully AH can overcome and get on track. His velocity is down quite a bit.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Hernandez doubles to the wall in left.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:11 PM
Gonzalez grounds out to short. 1 out.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 03:11 PM
Taveras' hit in 1st changed to an error.

All runs are unearned.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:12 PM
Roseales didn't stand a chance in that at-bat.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:12 PM
Rosales strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:13 PM
Intentional walk to Janish

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Harang singles and Ramon runs through the stop sign and is easily tagged out.


Sigh.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Harang singles to center. Hernandez runs through the stop sign at 3rd and is thrown out at the plate. 5-3 Reds after 3.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Why did he run through that stop sign?

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Harang is en fuego.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
ramon forgetting he doesn't have wheels gets thrown out at home...harang looking good at plate...can't even believe i'm typing that:p:

CTA513
05-25-2009, 03:16 PM
If you plan to ignore the stop sign then at least try to run the catcher over.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 03:17 PM
All runs are unearned.

Our second run should be earned.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Keppinger doubles to left.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Country Kepp doubles.


Gawd this is going to be a long game.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Harang's got nothing. Nothing at all.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Razor Ramon guns down Kepp!

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Our second run should be earned.

They're all unearned.

Red in Chicago
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
RAMON!!!!!!!!! catches kepp napping at second

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Perfect throw by Hernandez picks Keppinger off 2nd. 1 out.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Our second run should be earned.

Unfortunately, all unearned.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Keppinger bringing his Reds baserunning lessons with him to Houston.

MrCinatit
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Wow. Seems the Astros are idiots on the basepaths as well, as Kepp gets picked off as he picks daisies between second and third.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:20 PM
Rodriguez flies out to right. 2 outs.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
Kepp says "We never had that play!"

Hoosier Red
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
Unfortunately, all unearned.

They still count though :)

If you assume Taveras was out, that's one. Than Hernandez pop out. Then Gonzalez ground ball that drove in the second run would have been the third out.

So all are unearned.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
4 pitch walk from Harang to Bourne.


Harang is pretty brutal today.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
4 pitch walk to Bourn

VR
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
Walks Bourn with Tejada and Berkman coming up.

CTA513
05-25-2009, 03:21 PM
4 pitch walk to the great Michael Bourne.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:22 PM
They still count though :)

If you assume Taveras was out, that's one. Than Hernandez pop out. Then Gonzalez ground ball that drove in the second run would have been the third out.

So all are unearned.

Yep.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Berkman doubles to center on a ball totally misplayed by Taveras.

Disagree with this. That ball started out going to left center and sliced to right center and it was a laser shot. It "could" have been caught, but it would've taken an unbelievable catch to do it. Hard to fault Willy too much on that one.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Phew.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Tejada grounds out to 3rd. 5-3 Reds mid 4th.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Why did he run through that stop sign?

Not only was that a dumb move on Ramon's part, but then he doesn't even TRY to score. Run over the catcher or slide or something. Sheesh.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Hoping for just one more inning for Harang. Can the Reds afford to take his bat out of the line-up?;)

Any chance rain ends this before 9 today?

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Taveras strikes out swinging.

Light rain at the park right now.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Not only was that a dumb move on Ramon's part, but then he doesn't even TRY to score. Run over the catcher or slide or something. Sheesh.

Yeah, like the 'Stros announcers said; he should have Mike Cameroned Quintero.

MrCinatit
05-25-2009, 03:29 PM
"It's not really raining, it's just...drops from the sky." Words of wisdom, Cowboy. Words of wisdom.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:30 PM
Hoping for just one more inning for Harang. Can the Reds afford to take his bat out of the line-up?;)

Any chance rain ends this before 9 today?
Looking at the radar it doesn't look like it. There is some scattered rain in the area but most of it to the north.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:30 PM
Hairston with a sharp single past 3rd.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:30 PM
Hairston singles to left.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Dickerson flies out to center. 2 outs.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:34 PM
Pickoff attempts goes into the Reds dugout so Hairston will go to 3rd. The ball hit Hairston's foot and went into the dugout.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:34 PM
Throw to Berkman on pickoff gets away...Hairston advances to third.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Pickoff attempts goes into the Reds dugout so Hairston will go to 3rd. The ball hit Hairston's foot and went into the dugout.

Surprised Hairston isn't out for obstruction.;);)

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Jonny needs an "h"! Come on, Ribbie!

YES!

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Big hit.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Gomes delivers! RBI single.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Gomes singles to left. 6-3 Reds!

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:36 PM
Surprised Hairston isn't out for obstruction.;);)

LOL. Classic. :O)

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:36 PM
Hernandez singles to right. 1st and 2nd.

membengal
05-25-2009, 03:37 PM
Dear goodness I am glad they finally ended the charade and got Gomes up. They were stubborn about not admitting their mistake, but at least they alleviated it. Finally. About time.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:37 PM
Let's see, with that throwing error, is the 6th run ALSO unearned? Good grief. How lucky can Wandy's ERA get? 6 runs all unearned?

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:38 PM
10 hits and 6 unearned runs for Wandy.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:38 PM
Let's see, with that throwing error, is the 6th run ALSO unearned? Good grief. How lucky can Wandy's ERA get? 6 runs all unearned?

With Hernandez hit, its probably earned now.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:39 PM
Gonzalez grouds out to the pitcher. 6-3 Reds after 4.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:39 PM
Gonzo drives one DEEEEEEEEP to about 2 yards in front of the pitchers mound. 3 down.

But we add another one on. 6-3 Redlegs.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:40 PM
With Hernandez hit, its probably earned now.

Ahh, yeah you're right I think it is.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:40 PM
With Hernandez hit, its probably earned now.

Yep, forgot about that. You're right I believe. Still though...his ERA should've taken a BIG hit.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 03:40 PM
There should be such a thing as undeserved unearned runs.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:40 PM
With Hernandez hit, its probably earned now.

Nope, needed 1 more hit, as the runner at second isn't assumed to score on a single.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:41 PM
With Hernandez hit, its probably earned now.No it is still unearned because they don't assume a player would advance two bases on a single.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:41 PM
Rain getting harder apparently.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:42 PM
Raining harder now. Have to get this half inning in for this to be an official game.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:42 PM
Just lob one up there underhanded to Berkman.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:43 PM
Berkman strikes out. 1 out.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 03:43 PM
They're all unearned.


I know that, but the second run should be listed as earned. If the inning is recontructed with Taveras making an out, we still score one.

I forgot about Hernandez's foul out. Gonzalez's run scoring groundball would have been the third out, making all 5 runs unearned.

But the last run was earned, as the error on the throw didn't make a difference as Hairston would have scored on Hernandez's single anyway.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:43 PM
I know that, but the second run should be listed as earned. If the inning is recontructed with Taveras making an out, we still score one.

Unfortunately, no.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:44 PM
HURRY UP!!!!

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Lee grounds out in front of the plate. 2 outs.

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:44 PM
1 out away from an official game the game is stopped.

Tom Servo
05-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Rain Delay about to start.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 03:45 PM
No it is still unearned because they don't assume a player would advance two bases on a single.

If the official scorer believes the runner would have scored on that single, it would be earned.

_Sir_Charles_
05-25-2009, 03:45 PM
Crud. One more out and Aaron would qualify for a win.

Lets hope its a quick one.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:46 PM
1 out away from an official game the game is stopped.

Harang probably won't come back out now and won't qualify for a win. Carlos Fisher 2 wins in 2 days?

Reds Fanatic
05-25-2009, 03:46 PM
I know that, but the second run should be listed as earned. If the inning is recontructed with Taveras making an out, we still score one.There is no earned run in the first because if Taveras made an out that was followed by a single, walk, single then 2 more outs that would have completed the inning.

Razor Shines
05-25-2009, 03:46 PM
That's horrible umpiring there. You get that game official no matter what you have to do.

mth123
05-25-2009, 03:47 PM
If the official scorer believes the runner would have scored on that single, it would be earned.

That is how I understand it as well, but I'm no expert.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:49 PM
If the official scorer believes the runner would have scored on that single, it would be earned.

They don't get that opportunity when calculating earned runs. The pitcher always gets the benefit of the doubt when determing how many bases would be reached.

11larkin11
05-25-2009, 03:49 PM
If the official scorer believes the runner would have scored on that single, it would be earned.

OK. Taveras gets out. Hairston bunt single. Goes to second on walk. He was on second when Gomes hit that ball that Taveras scored on, and Hairston didn't score. So if Taveras wasn't on third, he still wouldn't have. Then Ramon pop out doesn't score him, then FC by Gonzo ends it. 0 earned.

VR
05-25-2009, 03:52 PM
10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed
An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 03:54 PM
OK. Taveras gets out. Hairston bunt single. Goes to second on walk. He was on second when Gomes hit that ball that Taveras scored on, and Hairston didn't score. So if Taveras wasn't on third, he still wouldn't have. Then Ramon pop out doesn't score him, then FC by Gonzo ends it. 0 earned.


I'm talking about our last run. I agree all the first inning rubns should be unearned, as I forgot about the first out pop out.

The last run would be earned, becuase if you construct the inning without the errro we still score. The official scorer makes a discision if the runner would have scored from second. He has that choice.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 03:55 PM
They don't get that opportunity when calculating earned runs. The pitcher always gets the benefit of the doubt when determing how many bases would be reached.

But sometimes there is no doubt.

I note Yahoo has 1 earned run listed, while MLB and ESPn has zero. I guess there is some doubt.

RFS62
05-25-2009, 03:57 PM
10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed
An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.




Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/python2.gif

VR
05-25-2009, 03:58 PM
But sometimes there is no doubt.

Doesn't matter with earned runs. Not even a teeny bit.

traderumor
05-25-2009, 03:58 PM
OK. Taveras gets out. Hairston bunt single. Goes to second on walk. He was on second when Gomes hit that ball that Taveras scored on, and Hairston didn't score. So if Taveras wasn't on third, he still wouldn't have. Then Ramon pop out doesn't score him, then FC by Gonzo ends it. 0 earned.I am usually a proponent of the ER concept, but that inning is a good example of why it doesn't always really separate what the pitcher is responsible for.

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:00 PM
OK, like mth I'm thinking that Harang won't be coming back when the rain delay is over.

So, who do you roll out there that could possibly do 4 innings?

Weathers? Maybe. He might be able to do a stretch like that but he'd be toast for a few days.

Owings? Has only had a couple of days from his last start and with Massett scheduled back you could have Micah finish this one and give his start to Nick. Or, you could call Homer , Ramierez or Malhonny up and give them a start. :)

Committee? Throw 4 guys from the bully for an inning each.

Rem

VR
05-25-2009, 04:02 PM
OK, like mth I'm thinking that Harang won't be coming back when the rain delay is over.

So, who do you roll out there that could possibly do 4 innings?

Weathers? Maybe. He might be able to do a stretch like that but he'd be toast for a few days.

Owings? Has only had a couple of days from his last start and with Massett scheduled back you could have Micah finish this one and give his start to Nick. Or, you could call Homer , Ramierez or Malhonny up and give them a start. :)

Committee? Throw 4 guys from the bully for an inning each.

Rem


I'd give it til about 12:30 for Aaron to return.

After that....I think your 4 for 4 idea is as good as it gets.

RFS62
05-25-2009, 04:03 PM
Johnny Allstaff

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 04:03 PM
Doesn't matter with earned runs. Not even a teeny bit.

It says you give the "benefit of the doubt" to the pitcher. The official scorer doesn't always simply assume that the batter would only advance 1 base on a single if he believes without a doubt a runner would have advance two bases.

mth123
05-25-2009, 04:04 PM
OK, like mth I'm thinking that Harang won't be coming back when the rain delay is over.

So, who do you roll out there that could possibly do 4 innings?

Weathers? Maybe. He might be able to do a stretch like that but he'd be toast for a few days.

Owings? Has only had a couple of days from his last start and with Massett scheduled back you could have Micah finish this one and give his start to Nick. Or, you could call Homer , Ramierez or Malhonny up and give them a start. :)

Committee? Throw 4 guys from the bully for an inning each.

Rem

Can't see it being one guy. Probably Herrera or Fisher to start out. Weathers will get an inning and Cordero the 9th if the Reds are up.

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:06 PM
I'd give it til about 12:30 for Aaron to return.

After that....I think your 4 for 4 idea is as good as it gets.

I think we're both on Left Coast time. Those 'eastener's' might find that comment confuseing. ;)

Rem

VR
05-25-2009, 04:06 PM
They are saying 4PM EST best case for resuming play.

Kc61
05-25-2009, 04:06 PM
The guys who went yesterday were Fisher, Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero.

So the likely guy to pitch after the rain delay is one of Burton, Lincoln, Herrera.

VR
05-25-2009, 04:08 PM
I think we're both on Left Coast time. Those 'eastener's' might find that comment confuseing. ;)

Rem

I'm jealous....they're closer to happy hour :beerme:

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:09 PM
Might be a good time to run Lincoln out there for a couple of innings. He's pitched better of late and if he could go 2.1 without any damage you're set for Burton and Cordero. Or, maybe Herrera and Burton if you've got a good lead on the scoreboard.

Rem

GoReds33
05-25-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm jealous....they're closer to happy hour :beerme:
It's five o'clock somewhere.:)

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm jealous....they're closer to happy hour :beerme:

I've solved that problem. I keep one clock in the house set to eastern time. ;)

Rem

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 04:11 PM
They are saying 4PM EST best case for resuming play.

yikes...that must be some kind of bad storm. i hope they can get this in. it would be such a killer for this game not to count given the lineup the reds trotted out there.

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:13 PM
That was one good thing about Riverfront. With the synthetic turf there was an amazingly low number of games that got rained out.

Some times you would have to wait a long time and Zamboni the field but a game like this would almost always finish.

Rem

VR
05-25-2009, 04:14 PM
The guys who went yesterday were Fisher, Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero.



All had pretty non stressful innings yesterday, although Weathers and Rhodes went Saturday as well.

17
16
11
14

Hoosier Red
05-25-2009, 04:14 PM
yikes...that must be some kind of bad storm. i hope they can get this in. it would be such a killer for this game not to count given the lineup the reds trotted out there.

I blame all the pessimists who were praying for rain before the bottom of the first.

mth123
05-25-2009, 04:15 PM
The guys who went yesterday were Fisher, Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero.

So the likely guy to pitch after the rain delay is one of Burton, Lincoln, Herrera.

I'd use the same guys again. Might try Herrera. Lincoln is purely mop-up IMO. Burton needs to go down to get straightened out when Masset comes back (Tomorrow?).

VR
05-25-2009, 04:17 PM
I've solved that problem. I keep one clock in the house set to eastern time. ;)

Rem

http://www.whiteysfoxandhounds.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Fox/GuinnessBrilliant.jpg

TheNext44
05-25-2009, 04:21 PM
I am usually a proponent of the ER concept, but that inning is a good example of why it doesn't always really separate what the pitcher is responsible for.

Changes I would like to see made to the "earned" run rules. In innings like the Reds first, any batter who reaches base, after the assumed third out was made, and who then scores, is an earned run.

Basically, Rosales, who got a hit after Gonzo's "third" out, and then scored later on, would be an earned run. Basically assume that a new inning has started and all runs in that new inning are earned, if they would be earned normally. I think it is ridiculous to have a line of 1IP 8R 0ER. At some point the pitcher has to be held responsible for continuing to give up hits and runs, even if the inning should have been over.

I also think that any home run given up is an earned run, no matter what. Even if the guy should not have batted, the pitcher gave up a run that would have scored in any and all situations.

remdog
05-25-2009, 04:22 PM
Well, since we're in this rain delay, I think I'll pop out to the grocery store and pick up some steaks and corn for the grill.

I'll try to be back by 4:00. :)

Rem

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 04:25 PM
Changes I would like to see made to the "earned" run rules. In innings like the Reds first, any batter who reaches base, after the assumed third out was made, and who then scores, is an earned run.

Basically, Rosales, who got a hit after Gonzo's "third" out, and then scored later on, would be an earned run. Basically assume that a new inning has started and all runs in that new inning are earned, if they would be earned normally. I think it is ridiculous to have a line of 1IP 8R 0ER. At some point the pitcher has to be held responsible for continuing to give up hits and runs, even if the inning should have been over.

I also think that any home run given up is an earned run, no matter what. Even if the guy should not have batted, the pitcher gave up a run that would have scored in any and all situations.

I think that's a good idea.

gm
05-25-2009, 04:25 PM
Changes I would like to see made to the "earned" run rules. In innings like the Reds first, any batter who reaches base, after the assumed third out was made, and who then scores, is an earned run.

Basically, Rosales, who got a hit after Gonzo's "third" out, and then scored later on, would be an earned run. Basically assume that a new inning has started and all runs in that new inning are earned, if they would be earned normally. I think it is ridiculous to have a line of 1IP 8R 0ER. At some point the pitcher has to be held responsible for continuing to give up hits and runs, even if the inning should have been over.

I also think that any home run given up is an earned run, no matter what. Even if the guy should not have batted, the pitcher gave up a run that would have scored in any and all situations.

Especially if the pitcher commited the fielding/throwing error. I know "he's just another infielder" but how can any subsequent runs allowed after his gaffe be considered "unearned"?

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 04:29 PM
Especially if the pitcher commited the fielding/throwing error. I know "he's just another infielder" but how can any subsequent runs allowed after his gaffe be considered "unearned"?

I suppose in that case it's not just the pitcher who's not earning the runs, but the offense isn't earning them either. In the first example, the offense is doing its job.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 04:30 PM
Changes I would like to see made to the "earned" run rules. In innings like the Reds first, any batter who reaches base, after the assumed third out was made, and who then scores, is an earned run.

Basically, Rosales, who got a hit after Gonzo's "third" out, and then scored later on, would be an earned run. Basically assume that a new inning has started and all runs in that new inning are earned, if they would be earned normally. I think it is ridiculous to have a line of 1IP 8R 0ER. At some point the pitcher has to be held responsible for continuing to give up hits and runs, even if the inning should have been over.

I also think that any home run given up is an earned run, no matter what. Even if the guy should not have batted, the pitcher gave up a run that would have scored in any and all situations.

All execellent ideas.

I do note that a pitcher cannot take advantage of errors that occured while he wasn't pitching. For example, after an error occurs that would have been the third out, if a new pitcher comes in and gives up a HR, he is charged with an earned run (while the team ERA still reflects an unearned run).

OldRightHander
05-25-2009, 04:31 PM
Great baseball weather here in Montgomery, NY today. Sunny and 75.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 04:33 PM
All execellent ideas.

I do note that a pitcher cannot take advantage of errors that occured while he wasn't pitching. For example, after an error occurs that would have been the third out, if a new pitcher comes in and gives up a HR, he is charged with an earned run (while the team ERA still reflects an unearned run).

That sounds like a strong argument for a more stituational definition of unearned run, as proposed above.

Falls City Beer
05-25-2009, 04:34 PM
I would make all runs earned. Sounds unfair, right? However, when you consider that if you're being intellectually honest, you'd probably put roughly 50% of a starter's unearned runs back in the "earned" column, it seems less "unfair" than it does "streamlined." IMO.

Consider too how unillustrative "errors" are in determining the skills of a defender. Unearned/earned is really a bunch of garbage and abstruse wonkery.

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 04:45 PM
I would make all runs earned. Sounds unfair, right? However, when you consider that if you're being intellectually honest, you'd probably put roughly 50% of a starter's unearned runs back in the "earned" column, it seems less "unfair" than it does "streamlined." IMO.

Consider too how unillustrative "errors" are in determining the skills of a defender. Unearned/earned is really a bunch of garbage and abstruse wonkery.


I agree.

If you are not going to penalize a pitcher when a fielder makes an error, why would you penalize him when a slow fielder doesn't even reach a ball an average fielder would?

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 04:48 PM
Slightly O/T...

This Brewers/Cards game is featuring a pretty stellar pitcher's game.

Carpenter went perfect through six before finally surrendering a base hit in the 7th. I think he's had 9 strikeouts. Gallardo has only given up 1 hit too. 0-0 in the top of the 8th inning.

So who do you root for here? Both teams are tied record wise. So from the Reds vantage point, you don't want either team to sweep...preferably 1 team win 1 game and the other win the other 2. Who do you prefer and why?

VR
05-25-2009, 04:56 PM
Slightly O/T...

This Brewers/Cards game is featuring a pretty stellar pitcher's game.

Carpenter went perfect through six before finally surrendering a base hit in the 7th. I think he's had 9 strikeouts. Gallardo has only given up 1 hit too. 0-0 in the top of the 8th inning.

So who do you root for here? Both teams are tied record wise. So from the Reds vantage point, you don't want either team to sweep...preferably 1 team win 1 game and the other win the other 2. Who do you prefer and why?

I'm suspecting Carpenter made a deal w/ the devil for 2009.

TheNext44
05-25-2009, 04:56 PM
Slightly O/T...

This Brewers/Cards game is featuring a pretty stellar pitcher's game.

Carpenter went perfect through six before finally surrendering a base hit in the 7th. I think he's had 9 strikeouts. Gallardo has only given up 1 hit too. 0-0 in the top of the 8th inning.

So who do you root for here? Both teams are tied record wise. So from the Reds vantage point, you don't want either team to sweep...preferably 1 team win 1 game and the other win the other 2. Who do you prefer and why?

I'm rooting for the Brewers, because I see them folding down the stretch more than the Cards. They simply don't have the starting pitching, or the defense. That will catch up to them.
The Cards need a closer, Franklin is not the answer, but I think by the time he starts to fade, Motte or Perez might be ready.

Also think LaRussa is a much better manager than Macha.

to be honest, neither looks that much better than the Reds right now, which is something I never thought I'd say this year.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 04:57 PM
There's a school of thought that says the more teams between you and the top, the harder it is to gain ground. That would mean one team should knock out the other, then you chase down the remaining team, even if it's farther away now. I'm not sure the school of thought really works in this kind of case. It's reasonable to want the two teams to beat up on each other, stay close to you, and hope the team you can beat more easily gets the upper hand for now.

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 04:58 PM
I'm suspecting Carpenter made a deal w/ the devil for 2009.

No doubt negotiated by Scott Boras.

fisch11
05-25-2009, 04:58 PM
Slightly O/T...

This Brewers/Cards game is featuring a pretty stellar pitcher's game.

Carpenter went perfect through six before finally surrendering a base hit in the 7th. I think he's had 9 strikeouts. Gallardo has only given up 1 hit too. 0-0 in the top of the 8th inning.

So who do you root for here? Both teams are tied record wise. So from the Reds vantage point, you don't want either team to sweep...preferably 1 team win 1 game and the other win the other 2. Who do you prefer and why?

I root for the Brewers. I believe that the Brewers, who were hot until the last week, will eventually fizzle out and settle to around 500 ball. I think their starting pitching is a weakness that will eventually catch up with them. The Cardinals are dealing with injuries right now, but somehow Tony seems to keep getting W's no matter who is playing.

fisch11
05-25-2009, 05:00 PM
Also, does anybody not worry about Carpenter like I do? He seems to be like Ben Sheets was in Milwaukee.....dominant when healthy, but mostly on the DL. I don't see Carpenter having a tremendous impact on the Cardinals season. Just can't imagine him pitching more than 12 games.

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 05:02 PM
What's the latest on the weather report? Anyone know? It's 4PM EST now. Extra innings (thankfully) still shows "rain delay" instead of "PPD," but I'm starting to get nervous.

cincyinco
05-25-2009, 05:04 PM
No doubt negotiated by Scott Boras.

Therefore, what you're saying is..

That the devil negotiated the deal himself?

Because I thought we all knew boras was the devil!?!?

remdog
05-25-2009, 05:06 PM
OK, I'm back. They can re-start the game now. :)

Rem

BCubb2003
05-25-2009, 05:13 PM
Therefore, what you're saying is..

That the devil negotiated the deal himself?

Because I thought we all knew boras was the devil!?!?

Definitely not one of the lesser imps and demons. But he has the empty eyes and the big hollow voice. Not sure about the bifurcated tail.

Scrap Irony
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Asked why he sold his soul, Carpenter stated, "Well, I wasn't using it."

Gallen5862
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
How bad was the rain when they delayed it with 1 out to go?

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 05:21 PM
How bad was the rain when they delayed it with 1 out to go?

it was definitely bad enough to delay the game. if berkman hadn't fouled off so many pitches, i think they would've finished out the inning.

i'm still trying to figure out what the situation is with the game. It looks like it's only raining lightly right now so I can't figure out what the status is.

fisch11
05-25-2009, 05:21 PM
If you could pick any ACTIVE pitcher to start Game 7 of the World Series, who would you send to the hill?

And for old time's sake, which INACTIVE pitcher would you pick?

gm
05-25-2009, 05:23 PM
Great baseball weather here in Montgomery, NY today. Sunny and 75.

Almost as good as Portland, OR

http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=97132

Memorial day weekend, Rose festival and it's not raining? Maybe those "climate change" proponents are onto something?

(you notice they don't call it "global warming" anymore?)

PuffyPig
05-25-2009, 05:24 PM
If you could pick any ACTIVE pitcher to start Game 7 of the World Series, who would you send to the hill?

And for old time's sake, which INACTIVE pitcher would you pick?

Santana

Koufax

fearofpopvol1
05-25-2009, 05:25 PM
If you could pick any ACTIVE pitcher to start Game 7 of the World Series, who would you send to the hill?

And for old time's sake, which INACTIVE pitcher would you pick?

I'd go Beckett and Koufax.

HokieRed
05-25-2009, 05:25 PM
Answer to number 2 is Gibson, not sure about 1.

Hoosier Red
05-25-2009, 05:25 PM
it was definitely bad enough to delay the game. if berkman hadn't fouled off so many pitches, i think they would've finished out the inning.

i'm still trying to figure out what the situation is with the game. It looks like it's only raining lightly right now so I can't figure out what the status is.

Apparantly the umpire said that if it was even drizzling just a little bit, they weren't going to take the tarp off.

Falls City Beer
05-25-2009, 05:26 PM
I consider Smoltz both active and inactive, so he's my answer to both. :cool:

fisch11
05-25-2009, 05:27 PM
Wow, Puffy and fear you both picked my two options. I would probably go with Santana for present, but Beckett is the best "Big Game" pitcher. Definitely went with Koufax, but also kicked around Nolan Ryan just because there was a legitimate chance he could throw a no hitter.

gm
05-25-2009, 05:27 PM
Apparantly the umpire said that if it was even drizzling just a little bit, they weren't going to take the tarp off.

If they used that criteria in the Pacific NW, we'd never get a full season in