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View Full Version : If Lance Berkman becomes available....



klw
05-26-2009, 01:06 PM
What would you be willing to give up for the Reds to pick him up? Assume he would waive his no trade clause. He is 33 and signed through 2010 with a club option for 2011. Option is for $15million or $2 million buyout. I am not sure of the numbers for next year. He is making 14.5 this year and each of the past 3 or 4 years.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2008/12/27/702866/lance-berkman-and-carlos-l

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2009, 01:08 PM
Can we arrange it so that he only hits off our pitching too?

Falls City Beer
05-26-2009, 01:10 PM
Would he be able to play left? I don't really know his status on that--except that I know he once played OF a while back.

medford
05-26-2009, 01:16 PM
Same question as FCB, can he still play the OF? I still can't believe he ever played CF, in fact I never thought he was a good fit in CF when he played it, but perhaps good enough to get his bat into that version of the Killer B's offense.

anyhoo, assuming he can play LF, and assuming that part of the deal would require the Reds to pick up his 2011 option, that pretty much makes Yonder Alonso available. Throw in Homer and I'd think about it.

Berkman has been down pretty much this season, save his usual dominance on the Reds Pitching staff. Is this a case of a player on the decline or a player just in an early season slump that will be hitting near his career norms by season's end.

I think something similar to the combination of Yonder & Homer would be the starting point for the Stros and if I'm the Reds I'm thinking I'm going to hold tight and look for a better fit. In an ideal world, Yonder is ready to man 1st next year, w/ Votto taking over LF. I'd be more in the market for a 1 year Right Handed power bat to play LF or a long term SS option.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2009, 01:19 PM
Berkman's a "put-you-over-the-top" bat. Zero question about it.

Homer Bailey
05-26-2009, 01:22 PM
I doubt that Berkman would be made available to a team within the central division.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2009, 01:23 PM
I doubt that Berkman would be made available to a team within the central division.

Teams do strange stuff when you offer to take big contracts off their hands. Which means the Reds will not be in the hunt.

bucksfan2
05-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Heck I would throw in a decent prospect just to get him out of the NL Central. Think of how much better that would make the Reds? Trade Homer to the Astros and make them trade Oswalt and Berkman to an AL team.

deltachi8
05-26-2009, 01:42 PM
Talk here in Houston is that Berkman and Oswalt are in the Biggio/Bagwell class of players- 99.9% chance they won't be moved.

klw
05-26-2009, 01:43 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/berkmla01.shtml
It looks like he last played the OF in 07- 31 games in LF. His range has diminshed. I was surprised to see he has played more in LF than CF as I always think of him as a misplaced CF when thinking of him in the OF.

wheels
05-26-2009, 02:31 PM
He's a switch hitter. Walt and Dusty want a righty bat. They have no use for him.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2009, 02:36 PM
He's a switch hitter. Walt and Dusty want a righty bat. They have no use for him.

He's got jokes....

wheels
05-26-2009, 04:06 PM
He's got jokes....


:p:

Seriously, though.

In my fictional world, I'd offer Alonso and Bailey for him, just to see where it it would lead.

How cool would it be to have Lance Berkman playing Left Field for the Reds?

Oh, and (I forget who said it) don't worry about his "decline". He tore the cover off the ball last year, so I doubt he's fallen off a cliff or something.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2009, 04:09 PM
They can have any four players not on the major league roster for him... seriously...

Homer Bailey
05-26-2009, 04:11 PM
They can have any four players not on the major league roster for him... seriously...

Stubbs/Alonso/Bailey/Soto? I'd have a hard time parting with all of those prospects with the chance of facing them within our division for the next 8-10 years for one guy who is somewhat of an injury/age risk.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2009, 04:14 PM
Stubbs/Alonso/Bailey/Soto? I'd have a hard time parting with all of those prospects with the chance of facing them within our division for the next 8-10 years for one guy who is somewhat of an injury/age risk.

That sounds like a great deal. I'm not all that high on any of those players except for Alonso, and he would have to be a PTBNL, correct? So I would put a condition on the PTBNL: if the Reds make the playoffs they can have Alonso. If at the end of the year the Reds miss the playoffs they get somebody else...

Homer Bailey
05-26-2009, 04:18 PM
That sounds like a great deal. I'm not all that high on any of those players except for Alonso, and he would have to be a PTBNL, correct? So I would put a condition on the PTBNL: if the Reds make the playoffs they can have Alonso. If at the end of the year the Reds miss the playoffs they get somebody else...

I'm not a huge risk taker, and I would hate to give up the small amount of potential MLB prospects that we have.

That being said, I love Berkman, and he would be a huge impact bat. I just don't see the trade ever happening.

wheels
05-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Stubbs/Alonso/Bailey/Soto? I'd have a hard time parting with all of those prospects with the chance of facing them within our division for the next 8-10 years for one guy who is somewhat of an injury/age risk.

I wouldn't go THAT great guns.

I'd do Alonso, Bailey, and a choice of Roenicke or Stubbs.

bucksfan2
05-26-2009, 04:21 PM
That sounds like a great deal. I'm not all that high on any of those players except for Alonso, and he would have to be a PTBNL, correct? So I would put a condition on the PTBNL: if the Reds make the playoffs they can have Alonso. If at the end of the year the Reds miss the playoffs they get somebody else...

Actually the Stubbs/Soto/Alonso/Bailey for Berkman deal I like. Especially if you make Alonso a conditional PTBNL. Here is the way I look at it. Heisey looks like he could be a very similar player to Stubbs. Bailey, while I don't necessarily agree, may need a change of scenery. Alonso may have been drafted for this exact purpose. Soto would be the toughest one to swallow because he has a ceiling that has star written all over it.

IMO a Berkman in LF makes the Reds a serious contender for the Central and WC but also a WC contender.

harangatang
05-26-2009, 04:42 PM
I would absolutely love to have Berkman. If it happened, Phillips could drop out of the cleanup spot and the Reds wouldn't have to face him 17 times a year. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Scrap Irony
05-26-2009, 04:44 PM
THose four are overpaying if you're assuming the contract. It won't take more than two of those, plus some AAA arms (starter or reliever). I'm guessing Bailey, Frazier, Maloney, Roenicke gets it done, assuming Houston is not on the hook for his salary.

Of course, I'd probably go for broke and try a Stubbs, Frazier, Maloney, Bailey, Roenicke, Lincoln, Francisco, Thompson, Viola deal for both Oswalt and Berkman. Then, flip Arroyo for a SS prospect.

That'll mean Heisey becomes the heir apparent in CF (should be ready as Taveras' contract goes belly up), Soto at the hot corner (a combination of Encarnacion and Rosales makes it fairly easy to find a league average bat and Soto could come quickly), and Alonso at 1B (with Votto moving to LF or Dorn in LF and Alonso as more trade bait).

That would require some serious influx of cash and guts to pull off. But another #2 starter (as Oswalt is now) and a legitimate cleanup bat are what separates Cincinnati from the playoffs. Doubt it'll happen, but fun to dream.

schroomytunes
05-26-2009, 06:29 PM
Yeah if we could land Berkman I would be all for trying to acquire him, but not at the expense of giving up the farm for him. I would offer them: Bailey, Soto, and Roenicke for him as we are assuming a very large contract. He would then play LF and bat 4th, dropping Phillips to 5-6 in the order.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2009, 07:46 PM
If I were GM I would never operate under the assumption of counting on guys like Soto years down the line. I would cash those chips in...

johngalt
05-26-2009, 09:38 PM
If you need a big bat to fortify your lineup for a playoff run and you can get a guy who's an MVP candidate year after year for a young arm who still needs plenty of polish, a singles-hitting center fielder with speed, a guy who can only play first base and is in A ball and another guy who's a raw toolsy kid in A ball, you do it every day of the week.

RFS62
05-26-2009, 09:43 PM
If you need a big bat to fortify your lineup for a playoff run and you can get a guy who's an MVP candidate year after year for a young arm who still needs plenty of polish, a singles-hitting center fielder with speed, a guy who can only play first base and is in A ball and another guy who's a raw toolsy kid in A ball, you do it every day of the week.



Boy, howdy.

All day, every day.

thatcoolguy_22
05-26-2009, 10:19 PM
If I were GM I would never operate under the assumption of counting on guys like Soto years down the line. I would cash those chips in...

I agree whole heartedly and WJ appears to be of that midset judging from his tenure as Cardinals GM.

tommycash
05-26-2009, 10:56 PM
As in the cases of Bagwell and Biggio, I don't see Houston ever trading Berkman or Oswalt.

I think they like to keep long term Astros that mean a lot to the fans. Now, Oswalt could eventually leave to free agency, but Berkman will stay just like Bagwell did. That is just my opinion.

Now, I would do the deal, but I wouldn't give Alonso for him. I would give up Bailey/Stubbs and a couple of A players. I would never give up too much in a mid season (rent-a-player) trade.

Tom Servo
05-26-2009, 10:58 PM
Put me in the camp that would give up almost any prospects for Berkman. It would be 1000x different kinds of awesome to have him on the Reds.

thatcoolguy_22
05-26-2009, 11:03 PM
Now, I would do the deal, but I wouldn't give Alonso for him. I would give up Bailey/Stubbs and a couple of A players. I would never give up too much in a mid season (rent-a-player) trade.

Not exactly a rent-a-player with Berkman. With his option he would be under the Reds control until the end of the 2011 season. If he could play LF I would be all over a trade centered around Bailey and Alonso. Those 2 would be the main deal and any other players would be for salary relief or to get a low level prospect type player back. Hopefully WJ can figure something out that works. I want WJ to make a Rolen-esque trade for the Reds :D

Just think of this lineup

CF Taveras
SS Hairston
1B Votto
LF Berkman
RF Bruce
2B Philips
3B Encarnacion
C Hernandez
P Owings ;)

Murderous!

RedlegJake
05-27-2009, 10:57 AM
If Houston was thinking right they'd be all over a 4 player for Berkman deal like the one suggested regardless of it coming from a division rival. They need an infusion of talent to set up for a future that right now looks darn bleak. I'm not so sure they are all that astute, though. In today's baseball world it's just silly to keep "fan favorites" too long. Traded now, while he still has value and offers a team a couple years of top production would net the Stros a lode of strong prospects. Trading Oswalt and Berkman now could put the Stros in pretty good shape looking forward at the cost of poor 2009/2010 seasons. Keeping them means the same thing - poor 2009/2010 seasons because the supporting cast isn't there. Seems a no-brainer to me.

Unassisted
05-27-2009, 11:10 AM
How can the Reds afford to add a player whose salary is the size of Berkman's? 6 months ago, this club was "at budget." Unless the budget goalposts have been moved, he can't be added until a big salary is subtracted.

tommycash
05-27-2009, 11:12 AM
If Houston was thinking right they'd be all over a 4 player for Berkman deal like the one suggested regardless of it coming from a division rival. They need an infusion of talent to set up for a future that right now looks darn bleak. I'm not so sure they are all that astute, though. In today's baseball world it's just silly to keep "fan favorites" too long. Traded now, while he still has value and offers a team a couple years of top production would net the Stros a lode of strong prospects. Trading Oswalt and Berkman now could put the Stros in pretty good shape looking forward at the cost of poor 2009/2010 seasons. Keeping them means the same thing - poor 2009/2010 seasons because the supporting cast isn't there. Seems a no-brainer to me.

I think it is only silly to keep "fan favorites" too long if they can no longer produce or it costs too much to keep them. That being said, unless Houston doesn't want to be on the hook for a lot of money in the future, why not keep Berkman and Oswalt and try to build around them. If, as you say, they have a couple of good years of production in them, then why get rid of them. The Stros have some trade bait that can get moderate return (Tejada won't get you a lot, but some might give up a prospect or two for him). I don't think the Stros are ready for a total overhaul. Berkman and Oswalt still bring people to the stands and sell merchandise.

REDREAD
05-27-2009, 11:16 AM
If you need a big bat to fortify your lineup for a playoff run and you can get a guy who's an MVP candidate year after year for a young arm who still needs plenty of polish, a singles-hitting center fielder with speed, a guy who can only play first base and is in A ball and another guy who's a raw toolsy kid in A ball, you do it every day of the week.


I agree. Basically, you are giving up Alonso (great prospect, but can only play 1b) and three maybes for Berkman.. If Stubbs or Soto end up being good ML players, you just shrug it off and live with it. Not really sure either is a superstar.

Homer.. well, this is his last option year. Some team is going to have to be patient and let him learn at the ML level. Apparently, he's not suited for the bullpen either. I don't see a whole lot of value in Homer. Cash him in.

Dan
05-27-2009, 11:22 AM
Why is it I read this headline and my mouth started to water? lol

_Sir_Charles_
05-27-2009, 11:28 AM
From what you hear here in Houston, I'd say that there's about 0% chance of either Oswalt or Berkman being dangled. Just like Bruce/Votto/Cueto/Volquez are untouchables...same goes for Berkman/Oswalt in Houston.

That being said, this team is STILL due for a major shakeup. Don't be surprised if Cooper is the next manager canned...and soon.

PuffyPig
05-27-2009, 11:32 AM
I don't see a whole lot of value in Homer. Cash him in.


If he has little value we may as well keep him.

_Sir_Charles_
05-27-2009, 11:37 AM
If he has little value we may as well keep him.

Exactly. His value may not be high, but his potential still is. It still cracks me up when people are so eager to be rid of a 22 year old kid with his stuff. 22! Give Homer a little time people.

Oops, forgot, he just turned 23. But still...

Chip R
05-27-2009, 11:54 AM
That being said, this team is STILL due for a major shakeup. Don't be surprised if Cooper is the next manager canned...and soon.


Not saying you're wrong but they did sign him to an extention through next season in April.

_Sir_Charles_
05-27-2009, 12:02 PM
Not saying you're wrong but they did sign him to an extention through next season in April.

Yep, but that was when they had high hopes for the season (however misguided they were). Several players have been quoted in the media as complaining about his lack of communication with players/coaches. If it was just one or even two...FO's will chalk it up to a disgruntled player, but this is like half a dozen.

Also, considering the shambles the farm system is for Houston, I wouldn't be shocked to see the GM go soon too. They need a MAJOR shakeup from top to bottom of their whole system.

SMcGavin
05-27-2009, 12:12 PM
Exactly. His value may not be high, but his potential still is. It still cracks me up when people are so eager to be rid of a 22 year old kid with his stuff. 22! Give Homer a little time people.

Oops, forgot, he just turned 23. But still...

It's his last option year. If the Reds handled him properly we could give him time, instead he's got four months. He will not be in Louisville to start the 2010 season, he'll either be on the Reds or with another organization.

_Sir_Charles_
05-27-2009, 12:43 PM
It's his last option year. If the Reds handled him properly we could give him time, instead he's got four months. He will not be in Louisville to start the 2010 season, he'll either be on the Reds or with another organization.

Yeah, I know. He'll be with us I think. Heck, I thought he should've made the team out of spring this year.

SMcGavin
05-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Yeah, I know. He'll be with us I think. Heck, I thought he should've made the team out of spring this year.

I hope he earns a spot on the 2010 Reds too. But didn't his last start suggest he has a long way to go? Six runs in 4+ innings, twice as many walks as strikeouts. It's too early to wonder if Homer will ever figure it out - but it's not too early to wonder if he'll figure it out in time for the Reds to use him.

RBA
05-27-2009, 01:18 PM
Why would Berkman want to play in Cincinnati?

REDREAD
05-27-2009, 01:22 PM
If he has little value we may as well keep him.

Homer has more value to a team that has a hole in the #5 slot in the rotation. A team like the Astros might be willing to suffer through a couple of bad seasons from him in the rotation in the hope that he might put it together.

Let me put it this way. At the end of the season, Homer is going to be worth even less. Right now, a team that trades for Homer can option him down to AAA and try to fix him. After this season, he has to learn at the ML level.

So, the thought is that the Reds would be better served to trade Homer sooner rather than later

Unassisted
05-27-2009, 01:25 PM
Why would Berkman want to play in Cincinnati?I find it hard to imagine that he would. He's a native Texan from New Braunfels, which is about 40 miles north of San Antonio.

15fan
05-27-2009, 01:30 PM
Can Berkman play SS?

jojo
05-27-2009, 03:51 PM
While I'd love to see Berkman's bat in the Reds lineup, I don't think he can play the OF any longer (spasms, knee etc) and I don't think the Reds could raise payroll $15M.

Trading within the division is the least of Houstan's problems....why would you even go watch them without Berkman?

redsfan4445
05-27-2009, 04:00 PM
Just speculation.. what if the Reds offered Bailey, Stubbs, Edwin,, Dickerson and a pitching prospect for him? is that to much? The Reds still have Frazier/Alfonso on the wayas well as Francisco at 3rd..

I think Berkman would handle Lf just fine and batting after Votto would make this team even more dangerous with Brandon moved to the 2nd hole and Bruce to follow Berkman!! i know it will not happen, but Berkman is a gamer.. hits a ton at our ball park and love to see him put this team over the top at the trading deadline.. then you have gomes and Nix off the bench and when Joey needs a day off, move Berkman to 1st and Gomes/Nix in LF..

anyway its nice to dream..

_Sir_Charles_
05-27-2009, 04:05 PM
I hope he earns a spot on the 2010 Reds too. But didn't his last start suggest he has a long way to go? Six runs in 4+ innings, twice as many walks as strikeouts. It's too early to wonder if Homer will ever figure it out - but it's not too early to wonder if he'll figure it out in time for the Reds to use him.

It was one start. Kind of hard to judge him on one start (I know he's had others in previous years...but he seems to be a different pitcher this year). And all young pitchers will have games like that, no matter HOW good they are. With the options gone, I'd like to see them give Homer a full season shot in the 5th spot. That'll give us a more accurate depiction of what he'll become. Plus we get that done BEFORE Arroyo & Harang's contracts end.

TRF
05-27-2009, 04:11 PM
It was one start. Kind of hard to judge him on one start (I know he's had others in previous years...but he seems to be a different pitcher this year). And all young pitchers will have games like that, no matter HOW good they are. With the options gone, I'd like to see them give Homer a full season shot in the 5th spot. That'll give us a more accurate depiction of what he'll become. Plus we get that done BEFORE Arroyo & Harang's contracts end.


How does he seem different? smiles more? self deprecating humor? modesty? seems to me he's the same as he ever was, a guy rushed by management with an over-inflated sense of self and clearly not even ready at this point for AAA.

RedlegJake
05-27-2009, 06:06 PM
I think it is only silly to keep "fan favorites" too long if they can no longer produce or it costs too much to keep them. That being said, unless Houston doesn't want to be on the hook for a lot of money in the future, why not keep Berkman and Oswalt and try to build around them. If, as you say, they have a couple of good years of production in them, then why get rid of them. The Stros have some trade bait that can get moderate return (Tejada won't get you a lot, but some might give up a prospect or two for him). I don't think the Stros are ready for a total overhaul. Berkman and Oswalt still bring people to the stands and sell merchandise.

We're probably disagreeing on quibbles but there is a famous Branch Rickey quote that you always try to trade a guy one year too soon rather than one year too late. Once a decline becomes obvious it's too late to get a really top return on a guy. As for packing the stands by keeping fan favorites - I'd argue an easier way is build a winning club - the fans will always find new favorites if you win. I guess my main thrust was that Houston's farm is ugly looking and there is precious little to build around Oswalt and Berkman before they are no longer big producers or go the FA route. Trading them could bring a lot of fresh talent both "ready now" and future talent. Unlike you, I see the Astros needing a complete overhaul because their main talent is aging fast, there is not a lot of depth, and nobody knocking on the door.

Ltlabner
05-27-2009, 06:08 PM
How does he seem different? smiles more? self deprecating humor? modesty? seems to me he's the same as he ever was, a guy rushed by management with an over-inflated sense of self and clearly not even ready at this point for AAA.

His issues with walks certainly isn't any different.