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View Full Version : Masset activated; Castillo back to Louisville



Strikes Out Looking
05-26-2009, 04:12 PM
From a tweet from Fay, Masset is back and Castillo is going to Louisville--he also says McDonald will go to Louisville.

Reds Fanatic
05-26-2009, 04:16 PM
Castillo going back to Louisville must mean they are pretty confident Phillips will be back soon.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2009, 04:17 PM
Good move. I was afraid they would send Fisher back down.

traderumor
05-26-2009, 04:21 PM
McDonald to Louisville, like a bad penny...

BRM
05-26-2009, 04:25 PM
Good move. I was afraid they would send Fisher back down.

He'll probably go back down when Volquez is ready.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2009, 04:33 PM
As was evidenced yesterday, Reds desperately need Masset back. I still wish he'd take Owings' spot in the rotation, but this will do.

LoganBuck
05-26-2009, 04:44 PM
McDonald to Louisville, even after they had to expose him to waivers? No other teams claimed him? Count this as a fortuitous day. :rolleyes:

bucksfan2
05-26-2009, 04:51 PM
As was evidenced yesterday, Reds desperately need Masset back. I still wish he'd take Owings' spot in the rotation, but this will do.

I don't. I think Masset has closer stuff. I think he will become the closer of the future. Right now the difference between Masset and Owings starting is probably small but the difference between Masset and Owings in the pen is starting to look like it is widening.

Reds1
05-26-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't. I think Masset has closer stuff. I think he will become the closer of the future. Right now the difference between Masset and Owings starting is probably small but the difference between Masset and Owings in the pen is starting to look like it is widening.

Also, moving Owings takes away his ABs as you don't really need to bat much if you only pitch an inning or two. He might get 1 ab vs. 3 if he is starting.

Team Clark
05-26-2009, 05:31 PM
I don't. I think Masset has closer stuff. I think he will become the closer of the future. Right now the difference between Masset and Owings starting is probably small but the difference between Masset and Owings in the pen is starting to look like it is widening.

I remember in ST when the board was overwhelmingly negative on Masset. I guess ST stats don't mean much after all. McDonald and Masset as examples.

Sea Ray
05-26-2009, 05:34 PM
What do they need with McDonald in Louisville? I don't see the benefit to keeping him in the organization at all

Eric_the_Red
05-26-2009, 08:53 PM
Also, moving Owings takes away his ABs as you don't really need to bat much if you only pitch an inning or two. He might get 1 ab vs. 3 if he is starting.

If Owings is in the bullpen he could be used in more games. Wouldn't the ABs even out? Instead of 3 every fifth day, he may get 1 every other day.

BUT...I don't think offense should be a consideration when deciding which player should be the 5th starter. I want the best arm out there.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2009, 08:55 PM
BUT...I don't think offense should be a consideration when deciding which player should be the 5th starter. I want the best arm out there.

If the gap is marginal, the offense can make up for the difference...

fearofpopvol1
05-26-2009, 08:58 PM
I don't. I think Masset has closer stuff. I think he will become the closer of the future. Right now the difference between Masset and Owings starting is probably small but the difference between Masset and Owings in the pen is starting to look like it is widening.

I agree. I could see the Reds very soon moving Weathers and Masset taking his spot in the pen and that's a very important spot. To have a guy that can come in and shut it down is noteworthy. The Cubs having Marmol for that spot is huge for them (even if he is having a bit of a down year so far). I'm not claiming Masset is as good as Marmol, but he can contribute similarly.

Eric_the_Red
05-26-2009, 09:06 PM
If the gap is marginal, the offense can make up for the difference...

True, if it is truly a pick 'em situation. But if 1 guy shows a higher aptitude for getting batters out, I'll take him. The offense would only show up once every 9 at bats while pitching is involved in every at bat while in the field.

So, it would have to truly be a situation in which 2 pitchers are basically mirrors of each other on the mound for me to take batting into serious consideration.

schroomytunes
05-26-2009, 09:31 PM
yea I could see the Reds trading Weathers at the deadline this year considering the bullpen arms we have available in Louisville(Roenicke,Viola,and Carlos Fisher) I think someone like the Yankees would be willing to upgrade their pen with a late inning guy like Weathers. Some prospects I like from them are, again being realistic:

1)Brad Suttle-(SAL) 3rd baseman had a very decent year as a rookie, may be converted to a LF as he progresses through minors.

2)Zach McAllister-(AA) lefty starter may be hard to acquire but I ask for at least a mid-teen prospect.

3)Austin Romine-(A+) 2nd rated catcher in their system at 21, was a former pitcher, would provide insurance in case Mesoraco dosn't pan out.

SMcGavin
05-26-2009, 09:32 PM
I'm not as high on Masset as some. His career numbers are very pedestrian (5.8 K/9, 4.5 BB/9. He's been better though since coming to Cincinnati, here are the numbers:

32 IP, 23 K, 13 BB

Not bad, but definitely nothing special. He does get a good amount of ground balls which is a plus. I feel like he's earned his spot in the bullpen, but I wouldn't move him to a bigger role like late-inning relief or the rotation.

Danny Serafini
05-27-2009, 12:33 AM
What do they need with McDonald in Louisville? I don't see the benefit to keeping him in the organization at all

Minor league teams like to win games too, and at that level he can be a contributor.

KoryMac5
05-27-2009, 12:39 AM
yea I could see the Reds trading Weathers at the deadline this year considering the bullpen arms we have available in Louisville(Roenicke,Viola,and Carlos Fisher) I think someone like the Yankees would be willing to upgrade their pen with a late inning guy like Weathers. Some prospects I like from them are, again being realistic:

1)Brad Suttle-(SAL) 3rd baseman had a very decent year as a rookie, may be converted to a LF as he progresses through minors.

2)Zach McAllister-(AA) lefty starter may be hard to acquire but I ask for at least a mid-teen prospect.

3)Austin Romine-(A+) 2nd rated catcher in their system at 21, was a former pitcher, would provide insurance in case Mesoraco dosn't pan out.


I may be wrong but doesn't Weathers have 10/5 rights this year. If he does he may not want to go elsewhere.

RedEye
05-27-2009, 12:57 AM
This discussion of Owings and Masset is reminding me how much I didn't like the Dunn and Griffey trades last year--and how much Walt actually ended up helping the team out in the end. I guess that's why he's the GM and I'm not. :-)

VR
05-27-2009, 12:57 AM
If Masset can come in and dial in that cut fastball....he'll do just fine as a setup man. That pitch is nasty.

Ron Madden
05-27-2009, 04:54 AM
What do they need with McDonald in Louisville? I don't see the benefit to keeping him in the organization at all

He's filler.

The Minor League teams need bodies to fill out their rosters, and in the long run it's best not to rush the prospects you do have. Gives them time to learn and develop their skills.

LoganBuck
05-27-2009, 08:07 AM
He's filler.

The Minor League teams need bodies to fill out their rosters, and in the long run it's best not to rush the prospects you do have. Gives them time to learn and develop their skills.

I understand that, but imo, McDonald is the worst kind of filler, he can't help in a pinch at the major league level, he has never hit at the minor league level, and he is on the wrong side of 30. He should not be in the organization.

lollipopcurve
05-27-2009, 10:09 AM
McDonald is the worst kind of filler, he can't help in a pinch at the major league level, he has never hit at the minor league level, and he is on the wrong side of 30. He should not be in the organization.

With guys like McDonald at AAA, it's all about attitude. If he goes to Louisville and sulks or big leagues the young guys, he won't hang around. If he stays positive, plays hard and is a good teammate, he has value.

PuffyPig
05-27-2009, 10:10 AM
This discussion of Owings and Masset is reminding me how much I didn't like the Dunn and Griffey trades last year--and how much Walt actually ended up helping the team out in the end. I guess that's why he's the GM and I'm not. :-)

You can argue about the return, but how can you argue about the trades themselves?

As pending FA's, it was better to get some return than nothing,

Danny Serafini
05-27-2009, 11:41 AM
I may be wrong but doesn't Weathers have 10/5 rights this year. If he does he may not want to go elsewhere.

This is his 5th year here, so he won't get 10/5 status until after the season.

REDREAD
05-27-2009, 12:22 PM
What do they need with McDonald in Louisville? I don't see the benefit to keeping him in the organization at all

In case Gomes or some other OF gets hurt. We still don't have a lot of depth in the OF.

Actually, if Tavares were to get hurt, it would be nice to bring up someone that can backup CF (without rushing Stubbs).

Hopefully,he stays in Louisville all season though.

REDREAD
05-27-2009, 12:26 PM
Also, I would not trade Weathers unless the Reds decide to throw in the towel this season. He's just too valuable.

With Lincoln and Burton kind of shaky (and throw in Herrera as kind of shaky too), it's unwise to trade bullpen depth like Weathers.

Let's face it, if you trade Weathers, you aren't going to get a great prospect in return.
Unless freeing up Weather's salary slot allows you to make a better move, I don't see the need to move him.

Fisher still has an opportunity to stick. All he has to do is outperform Herrera or Burton. If he does that, he stays and they get optioned down.

RedEye
05-27-2009, 01:22 PM
You can argue about the return, but how can you argue about the trades themselves?

As pending FA's, it was better to get some return than nothing,

I'm not arguing about the trades themselves. At the time, I didn't like the return, but now I'm much more impressed with what the players (Owings, Masset) are giving to the team.

bucksfan2
05-27-2009, 01:34 PM
I'm not arguing about the trades themselves. At the time, I didn't like the return, but now I'm much more impressed with what the players (Owings, Masset) are giving to the team.

I was surprised with the return. I like the Dunn trade and was glad to move Griffey and get anything in return. Even after spring I thought the Reds got a spare pen piece in Masset and a AAAA player in Richar. Masset has proven almost everyone wrong and he has lights out stuff. His problem is consistence but if he gets a hold of that you are looking at a future closer.

Owings had a rocky outing last night that included taking a bullet on the leg. But if you look at it after the fact, on paper, he gave the Reds 5 innings of 3 run ball. Add to the fact that he was 1-2, and was robbed of a double. This is coming from a #5 starter facing the opposing teams ace. While Owings is no world beater, when you put it into perspective he is one heck of a valuable piece.

lollipopcurve
05-27-2009, 02:39 PM
Owings had a rocky outing last night that included taking a bullet on the leg. But if you look at it after the fact, on paper, he gave the Reds 5 innings of 3 run ball. Add to the fact that he was 1-2, and was robbed of a double. This is coming from a #5 starter facing the opposing teams ace. While Owings is no world beater, when you put it into perspective he is one heck of a valuable piece.

Yep. He also beat Haren in Arizona.

fearofpopvol1
05-27-2009, 03:12 PM
While Owings is no world beater, when you put it into perspective he is one heck of a valuable piece.

Not to mention, his offensive value shouldn't be overlooked either.

IslandRed
05-27-2009, 03:39 PM
Owings had a rocky outing last night that included taking a bullet on the leg. But if you look at it after the fact, on paper, he gave the Reds 5 innings of 3 run ball. Add to the fact that he was 1-2, and was robbed of a double. This is coming from a #5 starter facing the opposing teams ace. While Owings is no world beater, when you put it into perspective he is one heck of a valuable piece.

Agreed. He's no ace, but he's doing something we haven't had from our #5 starter (not to mention some 3s and 4s) in quite some time, and that's giving us a decent chance to win his starts. Even against Oswalt last night, I didn't see the resigned flood of "we're going to lose today" pregame posts that have been a RedsZone staple this decade whenever any number of starting pitchers took the ball.

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 03:59 PM
Even against Oswalt last night, I didn't see the resigned flood of "we're going to lose today" pregame posts that have been a RedsZone staple this decade whenever any number of starting pitchers took the ball.

Speaking for myself, I was somewhat surprised that Owings recovered enough not to get pasted. I chalked it up to Houston's doldrums, not anything Owings was doing. He looked shaky to me. Lots of deep counts and first-pitch Houston outs.

Chip R
05-27-2009, 04:02 PM
Speaking for myself, I was somewhat surprised that Owings recovered enough not to get pasted. I chalked it up to Houston's doldrums, not anything Owings was doing. He looked shaky to me. Lots of deep counts and first-pitch Houston outs.


He's no world-beater but he's a fine #5 starter.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:06 PM
He's no world-beater but he's a fine #5 starter.

Wouldn't Davis as a 4/5 with Owings or Arroyo going to the pen be better?

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:07 PM
He's no world-beater but he's a fine #5 starter.

I get that, but what some forget is that we currently have one #5 and a borderline mop-up guy (Arroyo). It would be nice to tighten this collective.

medford
05-27-2009, 04:11 PM
How is Arroyo a borderline mop-up guy? Yeah I know he's no Cy Young, and he can throw up some real stinkers of a game, but at the end of the season he's pretty much around league-average, and if you can get that out of your 4th starter, you're doing alright.

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:13 PM
I look at it this way (pardon the absolutism): the first team among the Cards, Brewers, or the Reds who acquires an average or above starter ices the division. I really believe it's that close and I really believe that a starter of that caliber drives the wedge necessary to separate the teams. (And that's before things like injuries are considered).

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:13 PM
How is Arroyo a borderline mop-up guy? Yeah I know he's no Cy Young, and he can throw up some real stinkers of a game, but at the end of the season he's pretty much around league-average, and if you can get that out of your 4th starter, you're doing alright.

6.26 FIP

AmarilloRed
05-27-2009, 04:15 PM
Why wouldn't you rather have Helsey at AAA ahead of McDonald. Granted, you need players like McDonald to fill out rosters, but I still don't think McDonald should be blocking Helsey.

Chip R
05-27-2009, 04:17 PM
Wouldn't Davis as a 4/5 with Owings or Arroyo going to the pen be better?


Sure. You can never have enough pitching. But all I'm saying is that some people have greater expectations for the Reds starting rotation than they should.

OnBaseMachine
05-27-2009, 04:18 PM
I get that, but what some forget is that we currently have one #5 and a borderline mop-up guy (Arroyo). It would be nice to tighten this collective.

Borderline mop-up guy? You talking about the guy that averages 200 IP a season and has a 110 ERA+ in his career with the Reds? Yeah, his ERA is high right now but that's because of two clunkers. He's gone 7+ innings in five of his nine starts and 6+ innings in seven of his nine starts. A lot of teams would love to have a guy like Arroyo penciled in as their #4 starter.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:20 PM
Sure. You can never have enough pitching. But all I'm saying is that some people have greater expectations for the Reds starting rotation than they should.

That's probably true. But I think the point is that upgrading the rotation shouldn't be dismissed as unnecessary. An acquisition like Davis moves a lesser pitcher to the pen, which to me is a good thing. I don't know if it would ice the division as FCB says but it would sure go a long way towards doing just that.

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:21 PM
A lot of teams would love to have a guy like Arroyo penciled in as their #4 starter.

I wonder what the market would say about that.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:23 PM
A lot of teams would love to have a guy like Arroyo penciled in as their #4 starter.

Yep. Just imagine how good the Reds staff would be if they had a good enough rotation to move a guy like that to the pen? Or flip him for something else they needed, assuming Davis was acquired to replace him?

OnBaseMachine
05-27-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm in favor of acquiring Davis and moving Owings to the pen.

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:24 PM
That's probably true. But I think the point is that upgrading the rotation shouldn't be dismissed as unnecessary. An acquisition like Davis moves a lesser pitcher to the pen, which to me is a good thing. I don't know if it would ice the division as FCB says but it would sure go a long way towards doing just that.

A guy like Davis is so often overlooked by traditional baseball folk because of his tendency toward being a bit walk-happy, yet his career FIP is in the low 4.00s. So he does something right to counteract the walk. I still contend picking up Davis would be the quickest and cheapest way to make a profound improvement in the MLB team.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:26 PM
I'm in favor of acquiring Davis and moving Owings to the pen.

Whatever works. I'm just in favor of acquiring Davis for the rotation boost. Move whoever you deem as the lesser pitcher between Arroyo and Owings to the pen.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:28 PM
I still contend picking up Davis would be the quickest and cheapest way to make a profound improvement in the MLB team.

I'm on board. I'd still like to see an offensive upgrade somewhere but I like the idea of upgrading the rotation, which also upgrades the pen.

nate
05-27-2009, 04:29 PM
A guy like Davis is so often overlooked by traditional baseball folk because of his tendency toward being a bit walk-happy, yet his career FIP is in the low 4.00s. So he does something right to counteract the walk. I still contend picking up Davis would be the quickest and cheapest way to make a profound improvement in the MLB team.

That's not a bad idea. What do you reckon it would take?

Chip R
05-27-2009, 04:29 PM
Another advantage to acquiring Davis is you keep him away from the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals. If they go after Peavy, they are going to have to pay a higher price for him than for Davis.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:30 PM
That's not a bad idea. What do you reckon it would take?

Now that is a good question. Not just "what would it take" but "what would you be willing to part with"?

Falls City Beer
05-27-2009, 04:32 PM
Another advantage to acquiring Davis is you keep him away from the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals. If they go after Peavy, they are going to have to pay a higher price for him than for Davis.

The Cardinals likely don't have what it takes in the minors to acquire much of anything at the deadline. The Brewers would almost certainly have enough to get Peavy, but Peavy can still nix the deal, and he likely would.

Chip R
05-27-2009, 04:38 PM
The Cardinals likely don't have what it takes in the minors to acquire much of anything at the deadline. The Brewers would almost certainly have enough to get Peavy, but Peavy can still nix the deal, and he likely would.


Moores may sell him for pennies on the dollar, though. As I understand it he's hurting for money. He may not have much of a choice where to send Peavy since Peavy has the no trade clause.

BRM
05-27-2009, 04:40 PM
Why would Peavy decline a trade to Milwaukee?

Chip R
05-27-2009, 04:41 PM
Why would Peavy decline a trade to Milwaukee?


He's lactose intolerant?

bucksfan2
05-27-2009, 04:42 PM
Why would Peavy decline a trade to Milwaukee?

Money. With his no trade clause he apparently wants his option of $20M picked up. I don't think Milwaukee would be able to swing that.

medford
05-27-2009, 04:48 PM
Yep. Just imagine how good the Reds staff would be if they had a good enough rotation to move a guy like that to the pen? Or flip him for something else they needed, assuming Davis was acquired to replace him?

I think you're wasting a lot of Bronson's value if you move him to the Pen. As a long man, great, but in short stints, I doubt he would excel. His main value is his ability to eat up innings at a league average (perhaps slightly better) rate while having a history of staying healthy. He has his fair share of stinker games, but he makes up for them by putting up more than his fair share of quality starts. I think you'd loss a lot of that by putting him in the pen.

You can argue if his contract makes sense or not, but I think if every starting pitcher was put on the open market that was currently in the major leagues, and redistributed w/o regard to contract, or future (ie what he can give you right now) Bronson would fall w/ the first 90 selections (ie he'd be a #3 somewhere for a team this season). Plus I think Bronson's a better than average handler of the stick for a pitcher, which ups his value just a scotch for an NL club.

medford
05-27-2009, 04:50 PM
I'd also add, that I'm all for adding another starting pitcher and improving the rotation if possible, but I don't think its the biggest need at the moment.

IslandRed
05-27-2009, 05:06 PM
Why wouldn't you rather have Helsey at AAA ahead of McDonald. Granted, you need players like McDonald to fill out rosters, but I still don't think McDonald should be blocking Helsey.

Heisey's being blocked by Drew Stubbs, not McDonald. If they move him up, he'll either be sitting the bench or moving to right field, and I don't think either of those is in the best interests of his development.