Buster Olney says Reds looking for outfield help!!

[redsfan4445]

per olney and mlb trade rumours.

"The Reds are looking for outfield help. Personally I'd like to see what the Laynce Nix/Jonny Gomes platoon can do over a full season. "

there is a link but im not a subscriber to ESPN insiders its linked at mlbtrade rumours
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Hmm I wonder who they are looking at??

[Tom Servo]

While I wouldn't mind adding on a more legitimate bat, I was just thinking today how I too am rather pleased so far with Nix and Gomes and like what they bring to the table.

[nate]

It could be that the Reds turn to getting their bat at 3B. I only think that because they have many OF options but not so many 3B options. Yes, Rosales is nice but he's not a big bat. EE, well, we'll see.

[edabbs44]

It could be that the Reds turn to getting their bat at 3B. I only think that because they have many OF options but not so many 3B options. Yes, Rosales is nice but he's not a big bat. EE, well, we'll see.

have to agree. But who? Hopefully not Atkins.

[Homer Bailey]

have to agree. But who? Hopefully not Atkins.

Beltre? DeRosa?

Not saying they are great options, but they are options.

[nate]

have to agree. But who? Hopefully not Atkins.

Obviously, David Wright!

:cool:

I dunno either, it just seems like that's where any open "spot" would be.

[schroomytunes]

In a perfect scenerio I would love this trade with the Nationals:

Reds trade- EE, Josh Roenicke, and Sam Lecure(AAA)

Nats trade-Ryan Zimmerman

We then get our RH power bat in the middle of the order, allowing us to maintain the Nix/Gomes platoon in LF. But I think this is what we end up doing instead:

Reds trade-Sam Lecure(AAA) and Matt Maloney(AAA)

Nats trade-Josh Willingham and low A prospect.

Willingham then platoons with Nix while Gomes becomes #5 OF with Dickerson being sent to Louisville.

thoughts?

[membengal]

Nats need pitching. So send them pitching. Bailey/Maloney/Roenicke/ and perhaps Wood or Stewart along with EE

for

Zimmerman.

That's the kind of offer it would probably take. But the Reds have the horses to try.

[Joseph]

In a perfect scenerio I would love this trade with the Nationals:

Reds trade- EE, Josh Roenicke, and Sam Lecure(AAA)

Nats trade-Ryan Zimmerman

We then get our RH power bat in the middle of the order, allowing us to maintain the Nix/Gomes platoon in LF. But I think this is what we end up doing instead:

Reds trade-Sam Lecure(AAA) and Matt Maloney(AAA)

Nats trade-Josh Willingham and low A prospect.

Willingham then platoons with Nix while Gomes becomes #5 OF with Dickerson being sent to Louisville.

thoughts?

The first one has no chance of getting the conversation to continue. The second one could have some option to it though.

If we go asking for Zimmerman, they are gonna throw back names like Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, Votto....not all of them obviously but SOME of them.

[Tom Servo]

Are you guys forgetting the five year, $45 million contract the Nationals gave Zimmerman last month? I don't see him being traded now.

[membengal]

Are you guys forgetting the five year, $45 million contract the Nationals gave Zimmerman last month? I don't see him being traded now.

I haven't. It would take a huge offer to get to him (IF he were gettable), but the Reds may have enough pitching depth below the ones in the rotation already to make a legit run at it, because they can "replace" Zimmerman (kinda) with EE as well.

[WrongVerb]

Nats need pitching. So send them pitching. Bailey/Maloney/Roenicke/ and perhaps Wood or Stewart along with EE

for

Zimmerman.

That's the kind of offer it would probably take. But the Reds have the horses to try.

Actually the line is that the Nats are rather pleased with their young pitching. They're also in love with Zimmerman who's one of the few bright spots this season for them.

That said, the story that broke yesterday about a steroid supplier linked to the Nats (and Capitols hockey team) may put an interesting twist on things for a bit of time.

[membengal]

The Nats can say that all they want, but they have no bullpen, and maybe two legit arms in the starting rotation. If someone came at them with four or five legit arms for the bullpen and starting rotation along with a young 3b, I think they would have to at least listen.

Perhaps not. But it would be cool if Walt were thinking big about 3b. Zimmerman is thinking big. Can't hurt to think big.

[Degenerate39]

If the Reds can't get Zimmerman there's an outfielder they have I wouldn't mind getting back ;).

[LvJ]

I would like Mark Reynolds.

[TheNext44]

Here is my list of players who may become available by the trading deadline, who might help the Reds. I've tried to make it as inclusive as possible, so there might be a few who are questionable.

Matt Holliday
Mark DeRosa
Jermaine Dye
Josh Willingham
Jeremy Hermida
Ben Francisco
Jose Guillen
Adrien Beltre
Keven Kouzmanoff
Scott Hairston
Carlos Lee
Aubrey Huff


Feel free to add names that I might have left off.

I think that Jocketty should be able to get someone off that list, especially since the Reds now have some depth in their minor league system.

[buckeyenut]

How about something along the lines of this?
Zimmerman and Johnson (we'd move Votto to LF) for EE, Alonso, Bailey and Maloney.

Or we look to do something adding Guzman and AGonz to the mix as well? Obviously we'd need to come up with the salary differences or get WAS to pitch in some $$. But I think Zimmerman, Johnson and Guzman all would add value to our team and be guys worth targeting. If I was getting 2 of those guys, I'd be willing to give up Alonso in the deal.

[traderumor]

Folks, the Nats aren't trading Zimmerman. What it would take to get the Nats to bite would not be the type of deal that would help the other team. They have to give their fans some reason to come to the ballpark to watch what is sizing up to be a historically bad team.

[TheNext44]

Folks, the Nats aren't trading Zimmerman. What it would take to get the Nats to bite would not be the type of deal that would help the other team. They have to give their fans some reason to come to the ballpark to watch what is sizing up to be a historically bad team.

Agreed. I can't think of a player that is more loved by his team's fans than Zimmerman. Trading him would destroy their fan base.

[Patrick Bateman]

Guys, guys, guys.

You want Zimmerman? Be preapred to give up one of the following: Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Votto.

If we had Zimmerman, would you guys be coming out looking to deal him for a bucket of suspects?

[red-in-la]

I wouldn't mess with this team right now. Maybe by the end of June things will be different.

[schroomytunes]

Well looking at the list of guys to help us, I'm pretty sure Walt is still going to go with a RH bat to fill the LF spot. Guys that I like are gonna be guys that don't cost us the farm, but could be solid additions to the LF spot. They are:

1)Scott Hairston
2)Mark DeRosa
3)Josh Willingham
4)Michael Cuddyer--is my choice, his contract is 7.5 million per season, but I would like his RH bat in LF. I think the Twins would be willing to trade him for the right Offensive prospects, but if I'm Walt I make no trade unless they are going to accept Mike Lincoln's contract to close the salary disparity. So I offer this:

Reds trade-Mike Lincoln, Drew Stubbs, and Juan Francisco

Twins trade-Michael Cuddyer

thoughts?

[membengal]

WAY too much for Cuddyer.

[Vada Pinson Fan]

The Reds dynamic team chemistry is a wonderful thing to behold!!! But I temper my enthusiasm right now fully aware that the month of May's prosperity is matched 180 degrees by April's month long dismal beginnings. This Reds team can be THIS (May) GOOD and THAT (April) BAD. Jermaine Dye would look very nice in Red and leftfield in Cincinnati and not for the White Sox during their interleague games here.

Just think where the Reds would be had we signed Raul Ibanez and his great start happened here instead of the Phillies being the beneficiaries.

Gomes has been a player that eats, drinks and sleeps baseball and a type of player that we have sorely needed. Votto fits that mold too. Nix has made some nice catches after Dickerson made what should have been 3 errors in LF about 3 or 4 weeks ago during one game. Nix has had some timely hits too. Ultimately though, it will be proven that Gomes and Nix are role/off-the-bench players and not full-time stars like we need. As Homer fails in chance after chance with the Reds and Dye continues to do well, year after year, White Sox GM Kenny Williams will want considerably more than what was rumored over last winter- Jermaine Dye for Homer Bailey: 1 for 1. Jocketty should strike while this Reds team looks good to other GMs. I think Jocketty will do something between now and the all-star game in addressing either LF or 3rd base & maybe both. Stay tuned Reds fans!!!

[Reds1]

I even like Dickerson a few starts out there. He can hit and he has nice speed. I'm not so sure we need another big bat OF. Heck, if anything maybe another bullpen arm - I worry with the age of Stormy and AR. EE comes back give you more pop of an occational starter and PH off the bench or not - I'm not sure on EE, but anyways it's fun to watch right now.

[Mario-Rijo]

WAY too much for Cuddyer.

I hope the Twins would feel that way. A reliever who is stinking it up, a 3B prospect who is likely never gonna play on a big league field and Stubbs who has plenty of question marks himself.

Count me in as an EE & something for Beltre though. Also would still love to nab Hairston on the cheap as well. Time to cash in some of these chips that continue to plummet in value, Francisco, Bailey, Maloney, Stubbs, Valaika etc. I said leading up to last offseason that then was the time to make those deals now we lose precious value by the day.

[Razor Shines]

Count me in as an EE & something for Beltre though. Also would still love to nab Hairston on the cheap as well. Time to cash in some of these chips that continue to plummet in value, Francisco, Bailey, Maloney, Stubbs, Valaika etc. I said leading up to last offseason that then was the time to make those deals now we lose precious value by the day.

I don't really understand wanting Beltre. He's currently OPSing .562, his career OPS is lower than EE's career OPS and he's older. With his salary plus whoever we'd have to send along with Edwin to get him; I'd rather take my chances with Edwin. But there's a good chance I'm missing something.

[redsmetz]

When we here at RZ are allowing prospective trade partners to back up the truck, I'm awfully glad we're not the GM. I understand we have chips to trade, but I'm not emptying the coffers as we suggest here from time to time.

[Eric_the_Red]

I'd give the Nix/Gomes platoon more time. Doesn't seem broke yet, so I'm not fixing it.

[Redhook]

The Reds need a SS more than OF help.

[Sea Ray]

RZ loves to talk trades but the Nats are no more willing to trade Zimmerman than other targets discussed in past years like the Dodgers trading Matt Kemp, the Giants trading Lincecum...

These teams know what they have. You can't steal these young major league talents by offering up minor leaguers. It just doesn't work that way.

[jojo]

Guys, guys, guys.

You want Zimmerman? Be preapred to give up one of the following: Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Votto.

If we had Zimmerman, would you guys be coming out looking to deal him for a bucket of suspects?

What if the Reds got Longoria and then offered him to the Nats for Zimmerman? :cool:

[redsfan4445]

i would love to see Houston contunie to slide and they put Berkman on the market..A Edwin,Bailey, Dickerson/Stubbs and another pitching prospect fom the minors for Berkman.. YES he makes alot of money, but he is a gamer, hustles, and would put this team over the top. And he would bat 4th between Votto and Bruce moving Brandon to #2 spot.. WOW.. thats a over the top offense. if they want a younger slugger, then rios from Toronto.. by offering the same deal..

[HotCorner]

Brad Hawpe is another name to consider.

[edabbs44]

Brad Hawpe is another name to consider.

Good thought. Hawpe in LF would make sense, but (IMO) only after 3rd base is written off as un-upgradeable.

I think Zimmerman isn't obtainable unless they get a Godfather offer. They need to add to their hitting.

[Will M]

Good thought. Hawpe in LF would make sense, but (IMO) only after 3rd base is written off as un-upgradeable.

I think Zimmerman isn't obtainable unless they get a Godfather offer. They need to add to their hitting.

I agree that adding a bat in LF should not be the #1 plan. I would love to find an upgrade at 3B somehow & go with the 5 headed monster in LF.

[Kc61]

The three unsettled positions for the Reds are 3b, ss, lf.

I agree that LF is not the optimal place to add a bat via trade. The Reds have some good righty/lefty platoon guys there now. Also -- as Reds hitting prospects come up, LF is a perfect place to put them if they don't have a natural or vacant position. Like a Frazier, or Dorn, or Francisco, or Soto, or Heisey, depending on who "graduates" from AAA eventually. Or Votto if Alonso is the one who "graduates." Or Stubbs if CF is occupied by WT. Also keep in mind that if the infield is healthy, LF may be the spot for Hairston if he continues to hit.

I would much rather see the new bat play 3B or SS.

[Razor Shines]

What if the Reds got Longoria and then offered him to the Nats for Zimmerman? :cool:

Now you're being ridiculous. We should get more than just Zimmerman for Longoria.

[jojo]

Brad Hawpe would be more like buying a treadmill than gaining ground in a marathon IMHO. He's that bad defensively.

[REDREAD]

I can't see the Nats willing to even talk about trading Zimmerman unless Volquez or Ceuto is on the table.

He's basically their Jay Bruce that they want to build around.

[redsfan4445]

here is another name: Russell Branyan!! he has done well this season

BAVG .311
HR 11
RBI 23
OPS 1.006
OBP .398

Salary for 2009 1.4 million!!

[Sea Ray]

here is another name: Russell Branyan!! he has done well this season

BAVG .311
HR 11
RBI 23
OPS 1.006
OBP .398

Salary for 2009 1.4 million!!

Branyan does have his power stroke down but we have a 1B. We're not going to move Joey Votto mid season. Branyan is still worthless vs LH pitching

[CaiGuy]

Branyan does have his power stroke down but we have a 1B. We're not going to move Joey Votto mid season. Branyan is still worthless vs LH pitching

Third base

Left Field

Platoon

[VR]

Is Brandon Larson still available?

[Razor Shines]

Is Brandon Larson still available?

This has nothing to do with the thread but his name reminded me of something.

Did anyone see Barry Larkin on MLB Network talking about Brandon Larson last week? After Larson got his first big league hit, off of Randy Johnson, Brandon seriously asked Barry if he thought it would be ok to send the ball over and ask Johnson to autograph it. Barry said "I just looked at him and said; 'I suggest you don't'".

Then Mitch Williams said "Randy would one: Light the ball on fire and send it back or two: hit him next time up and send that ball to Larson and ask him to autograph it."

[*BaseClogger*]

I'd give the Nix/Gomes platoon more time. Doesn't seem broke yet, so I'm not fixing it.

Yeah, a lot of the names I'm reading are not really impact players. I don't see a significant impact made by a Hairston/DeRosa over the platoon guys we already have in-house. If I were to add somebody at the trade deadline I would make sure that player is getting me over the hump. That's why I was willing to trade the farm for Berkman.

The bolded players really won't give us anything we don't already have:


Matt Holliday
Mark DeRosa
Jermaine Dye
Josh Willingham
Jeremy Hermida
Ben Francisco
Jose Guillen
Adrien Beltre
Keven Kouzmanoff
Scott Hairston
Carlos Lee
Aubrey Huff


Feel free to add names that I might have left off.

Holliday isn't hitting, Lee's contract is too massive, and Huff can't play defense for us. I like Dye and Beltre as rentals. But I'll nominate two more players who we could use at 3B: Tejada and Peralta...

[jojo]

Holliday isn't hitting

That's so last month. :cool:

He's in vogue again.

[reds44]

The Reds aren't going to trade for Zimmerman, and the Nationals aren't going to trade him. That's a pipe dream.

I have no problem with upgrading from Nix/Gomes and having both of them on the bench. Nothing wrong with a strong bench.

[osuceltic]

Holliday, Dye, Carlos Lee, maybe Huff, definitely Berkman (if he were made available -- doubtful). Those are the kinds of guys who make sense. If we're talking about some of these marginal guys, just stick with the platoon.

I'm REALLY hoping the St. Louis Walt swings for the fences with one of those big-time bats.

[Jpup]

The Reds aren't going to add salary. Keep that in mind too.

[reds44]

Even if it's only for 2 month for a guy like Dye?

I could see it.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Also put me down as a guy that likes the Nix/Gomes platoon in left. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Like others have mentioned, I wonder if the Reds will look for some help at 3B though. Even when EE comes back, will that solve anything? I don't think so. I'm not convinced at all that EE is a better overall player than Rosales at this point of their careers. Both of them are average at best IMO. Maybe it's time to find a new 3B but no one on this board would probably be happy with the names that would be available. Atkins would certainly be one, maybe DeRosa or Beltre. I don't think the D-Backs want to get rid of a young Mark Reynolds that is on pace for 45 HRs and 35 steals right now. (Yes, I know he won't get there and strikes out a ton, but I'm just giving you the facts.)

[Blitz Dorsey]

Even if it's only for 2 month for a guy like Dye?

I could see it.

I like the idea of trading with the Pale Hose. I mean, they gave us Nick Masset for a washed-up Ken Griffey Jr.

Course, problem is, this deal fell through during the offseason and there might still be some hard feelings. I think the deal was basically Bailey-for-Dye, but the Reds also wanted the Sox to pay most of Dye's contract. Apparently the Sox didn't want to pay it, or pay enough of it, so the deal fell through. Maybe Chicago's asking price would be considerably lower now. Have to think it would. Or maybe they would rather have the draft pick(s) they would get from losing Dye as a free agent after this season instead of getting Homer Bailey. (If the Reds would even be interested in trading Bailey for a two-or-three-month rental, which I don't think they would be.)

[Mario-Rijo]

I don't really understand wanting Beltre. He's currently OPSing .562, his career OPS is lower than EE's career OPS and he's older. With his salary plus whoever we'd have to send along with Edwin to get him; I'd rather take my chances with Edwin. But there's a good chance I'm missing something.

I think buying a bit low on Beltre is ideal for more than one reason. Get him while he is struggling and when he does do the catching up to the back of his baseball card he'll be doing it in Red. And of course there is the added motivation he will probably find sometime soon realizing the hourglass is running out to make this season look really good for his impending FA. Also buying now may get us a slight discount, perhaps. As far as his career OPS is concerned Beltre is .010 less and has played his home games in big parks. For further proof of his playing in those parks hurting his #'s just have a look at his splits and you can see a sizable differential.

Career Home/Away Beltre:

Home: 805 Games, 3176 PA's, .249/.309/.414/.723 (LA/Seattle) .266 BABIP
Away: 812 Games, 3424 PA's, .287/.338/.492/.831 (103 Total XBH's more in just 250 more PA's) .309 BABIP

As you can see here he's a different player when not in a mammoth park. Edwin is a better player at home also, he slugs about 40 points higher at home. In a nutshell at worst they are comparable but Beltre holds a fair edge. I understand EE is younger and has potential however the issue is two fold. #1 We would like to compete right now and #2 Edwins defense has never really improved to a dependable level, which is where Beltre sets himself apart right now. I guess what I'm saying is I am willing to give up a bat who profiles in the future as a 25-30 HR left fielder or 1st baseman who also isn't all that likely to remain a Red (due to the fact he can't stick at 3rd) for the opportunity to start the winning right now. Also we are in the perfect position to offer Beltre arbitration and be prepared to accept him accepting it next year or him not accepting it and we then get an extra 1st rounder.

Sounds like a no brainer too me unless of course Edwin miraculously finds his defensive chops (who wants to bet on that happening?) and then there is no gaurantee he would have as a Red. But that is a risk I'm willing to take for a shot to get the playoffs started in '09 than to wait yet another year.

[Mario-Rijo]

When we here at RZ are allowing prospective trade partners to back up the truck, I'm awfully glad we're not the GM. I understand we have chips to trade, but I'm not emptying the coffers as we suggest here from time to time.

Problem is RM there are times when those prospects have value and yet we know (with very close certainty) they have little to no future, those are times we must allow for the backing up of trucks. The concept should be to maximize every player you have in your organization to the fullest and most times that means trading them away at just the right time. Let's not forget we are not trading them for nothing if we target the right people at the right time as well, we are bringing talent back in as well. Wait too long and they will neither play for you or be of use to obtain another critical piece. At that point what value do they still hold?

The problem comes in when we don't believe in ourselves to know with a high degree of certainty which prospects are which. Frankly I personally feel it's not at all hard to figure out who has a future and who doesn't. We just have to quit kidding ourselves. Certainly we as fans don't have all the information neccessary to make those decisions (Votto comes to mind), but the front office does and should know for the most part. And if for the most part they do then it shouldn't be tough to part with many of the no brainers and keep the obvious guys. Especially now at a time when money is such a critical point of emphasis in negotiations. Unless we trade for a star or are willing to take on a few bucks then we really should not have to part with anyone critical to the future of this organization.

[Hoosier Red]

Holliday isn't hitting, Lee's contract is too massive, and Huff can't play defense for us. I like Dye and Beltre as rentals. But I'll nominate two more players who we could use at 3B: Tejada and Peralta...

Has Tejada played 3B except for the WBC?

[BRM]

Has Tejada played 3B except for the WBC?

He has never played 3B in his major league career. According to BR, he played one game at 3B in the minors at high-A.

[jojo]

I think buying a bit low on Beltre is ideal for more than one reason. Get him while he is struggling and when he does do the catching up to the back of his baseball card he'll be doing it in Red. And of course there is the added motivation he will probably find sometime soon realizing the hourglass is running out to make this season look really good for his impending FA. Also buying now may get us a slight discount, perhaps. As far as his career OPS is concerned Beltre is .010 less and has played his home games in big parks. For further proof of his playing in those parks hurting his #'s just have a look at his splits and you can see a sizable differential.

Career Home/Away Beltre:

Home: 805 Games, 3176 PA's, .249/.309/.414/.723 (LA/Seattle) .266 BABIP
Away: 812 Games, 3424 PA's, .287/.338/.492/.831 (103 Total XBH's more in just 250 more PA's) .309 BABIP

As you can see here he's a different player when not in a mammoth park. Edwin is a better player at home also, he slugs about 40 points higher at home. In a nutshell at worst they are comparable but Beltre holds a fair edge. I understand EE is younger and has potential however the issue is two fold. #1 We would like to compete right now and #2 Edwins defense has never really improved to a dependable level, which is where Beltre sets himself apart right now. I guess what I'm saying is I am willing to give up a bat who profiles in the future as a 25-30 HR left fielder or 1st baseman who also isn't all that likely to remain a Red (due to the fact he can't stick at 3rd) for the opportunity to start the winning right now. Also we are in the perfect position to offer Beltre arbitration and be prepared to accept him accepting it next year or him not accepting it and we then get an extra 1st rounder.

Sounds like a no brainer too me unless of course Edwin miraculously finds his defensive chops (who wants to bet on that happening?) and then there is no gaurantee he would have as a Red. But that is a risk I'm willing to take for a shot to get the playoffs started in '09 than to wait yet another year.

Yes. Beltre is pretty much a victim of hanging with the wrong crowd.

[Will M]

From mlb trade rumors:

Which teams are most likely to become sellers in the next few months leading up to the July 31st trade deadline? To help determine that, let's take a look at Baseball Prospectus' Playoff Odds report. The report gives the following eleven teams less than a 10% chance of making the playoffs:

Pirates - 9.46%
Giants - 8.78%
Mariners - 6.14%
Rockies: 4.84%
Athletics: 4.36%
White Sox: 4.33%
Marlins: 3.20%
Orioles: 2.77%
Diamondbacks: 2.58%
Astros: 2.25%
Nationals: 0.52%
The report likes the 20-28 Indians more than the 21-25 White Sox, because Cleveland has a better run differential. The report gives the Tribe a 14.4% playoff chance. The Padres have pushed themselves up to 11.94%.

As far as pure offensive production this year, your trade candidate leaders from these eleven are Adam Dunn, Russell Branyan, Brad Hawpe, and Nick Johnson. This year's top pitchers from these non-contenders include Mark Buehrle, Matt Cain, Wandy Rodriguez, Erik Bedard, Jarrod Washburn, and Doug Davis. I'm not sure whether Buehrle, Cain, and Rodriguez will actually hit the market.

[Highlifeman21]

here is another name: Russell Branyan!! he has done well this season

BAVG .311
HR 11
RBI 23
OPS 1.006
OBP .398

Salary for 2009 1.4 million!!

Don't toy with me...

We had Branyan before, IIRC he struggled with some injuries, and we turned over the 3B job to Brandon Larson and Aaron Boone.

Now if we ended up getting Branyan back...

... nah, that would never work, his strikeouts would piss off far too many people

[Rojo]

If GoNix has left nailed down, the only immediate problem is the defense on the left side of the infield.

A cheaper alternative to Beltre is Joe Crede. Then maybe you could move EdE to the Giants (who could play him at first) for Burriss and more.

Yes, the Reds would be loosing the best bat, but Burris/Crede would probably beat Gonzalez/Rosales at the plate and would definitely best them in the field.

[redsfan4445]

Don't toy with me...

We had Branyan before, IIRC he struggled with some injuries, and we turned over the 3B job to Brandon Larson and Aaron Boone.

Now if we ended up getting Branyan back...

... nah, that would never work, his strikeouts would piss off far too many people

Branyan would not be the starting 3rd baseman..Olney said they are looking for an outfielder.. True that he can play 3rd/1st/RF/LF. and be a huge bat off the bench.. just an idea i was throwing out there.. I always liked him and it seems he is getting it together with the average which he never did before and he has a 1.4 mil contract (only 700,000 if we got him at the trading deadline).. just an idea..

and per another idea Joe Crede is hurt again.. he is a huge risk i dont want!!

[Eric_the_Red]

As far as pure offensive production this year, your trade candidate leaders from these eleven are Adam Dunn, Russell Branyan, Brad Hawpe, and Nick Johnson. This year's top pitchers from these non-contenders include Mark Buehrle, Matt Cain, Wandy Rodriguez, Erik Bedard, Jarrod Washburn, and Doug Davis. I'm not sure whether Buehrle, Cain, and Rodriguez will actually hit the market.

I would give Bailey and Alonso for Cain. A victim of atrocious run support in his career, IMO he could step in as the 2nd or 3rd best starter on the team.

[Rojo]

I would give Bailey and Alonso for Cain. A victim of atrocious run support in his career, IMO he could step in as the 2nd or 3rd best starter on the team.

Brian Sabean almost never re-stocks his minor league system. He'll be looking for big league contributors.

[Eric_the_Red]

Brian Sabean almost never re-stocks his minor league system. He'll be looking for big league contributors.

It's the Giants. Alonso is a big league contributor there. ;)

Wonder if Bailey, JHJ and PTBNL would get it done? Whatever the case, if I'm Walt, I'm on the phone working a deal today. Imagine Cueto, Cain & Volquez for the next decade or so. :luvu:

[HokieRed]

Here are Yonder Alonso's numbers for May: .349/.432/.554/.986. I'd urge a moratorium (a permanent one, IMHO) on suggested trades involving Alonso.

[osuceltic]

Here are Yonder Alonso's numbers for May: .349/.432/.554/.986. I'd urge a moratorium (a permanent one, IMHO) on suggested trades involving Alonso.

Sorry, but he has nowhere to play in Cincinnati and is the most valuable trading chip the Reds own. If Walt is shopping for an impact bat, I would assume Alonso would be part of those discussions.

And those numbers are in A-ball.

[Eric_the_Red]

Here are Yonder Alonso's numbers for May: .349/.432/.554/.986. I'd urge a moratorium (a permanent one, IMHO) on suggested trades involving Alonso.

IMO, no player in untradeable if you think your team can win this year. When Alonso comes up, who knows what shape the team will be in? The team could have a weaker bullpen, as Weathers, Rhodes, etc. age. Or the rotation could be much different if as Harang & Arroyo get older.

I'd rather go to the playoffs this year than not make a move for the sake of one prospect's potential. And in the example of this trade (Cain) the player received is also relatively young and could help the team just as much in future years.

[traderumor]

Sorry, but he has nowhere to play in Cincinnati and is the most valuable trading chip the Reds own. If Walt is shopping for an impact bat, I would assume Alonso would be part of those discussions.

And those numbers are in A-ball.Pujols played 3b and LF, poorly I might add, before they found a home for him at first because "there was nowhere for him to play" when he came up.

With the current outlook on offense, mentioning Yonder as drafted for trade bait (give a major league contract to trade bait?) just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If he can hit as projected, they will gladly find a place for him to play in Cincinnati, with Votto to LF making the most sense, all things equal as of today.

[RedsMan3203]

What if we don't need that LF Bat?

I don't think this team will be the same without JHJ in the lineup. He needs to play 5/6 days a week. If Edwin sits, Edwin sits. If Nix/Gomes sit they sit. Simple as that. Whatever we do I think we need to keep JHJ in the lineup.

[HokieRed]

I hope we don't keep Yonder out in 2010 to keep JHJ in.

[Sea Ray]

Third base

Left Field

Platoon

Walt's philosophy is very clear and it includes solid defense. He won't put Branyan in LF or 3B. That would be a downgrade defensively and Walt doesn't generally tolerate that.

[_Sir_Charles_]

IMO, no player in untradeable if you think your team can win this year. When Alonso comes up, who knows what shape the team will be in? The team could have a weaker bullpen, as Weathers, Rhodes, etc. age. Or the rotation could be much different if as Harang & Arroyo get older.

I'd rather go to the playoffs this year than not make a move for the sake of one prospect's potential. And in the example of this trade (Cain) the player received is also relatively young and could help the team just as much in future years.

Just remember to keep the BIG PICTURE in mind here. I don't think ANYBODY wants the Reds to make it to the playoffs this year and then not sniff it again the rest of the decade. In order to make it this year, I think it'll cost us too much as we've still got a few too many holes to fill. I know we fans have had to wait a long time for some postseason action, but as long as the team is improving and making strides towards the postseason...waiting another year won't be too painful. Not if it means we'll be there consistantly for several years in the near future.

While Alonso is high on the radars of Reds' fans...on the national level, he's gone pretty much unnoticed because he's still in A-ball. I think many here are overestimating his trade value as of right now. Don't get me wrong, I think he's going to be a stud...but IF we're going to deal him, now isn't the time to do it. Not yet.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Pujols played 3b and LF, poorly I might add, before they found a home for him at first because "there was nowhere for him to play" when he came up.

With the current outlook on offense, mentioning Yonder as drafted for trade bait (give a major league contract to trade bait?) just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If he can hit as projected, they will gladly find a place for him to play in Cincinnati, with Votto to LF making the most sense, all things equal as of today.

I also think that he was drafted because he was the best player available and the team would be willing to deal him if they couldn't find a spot for him. But the MLB contract...that was the ONLY way they were going to sign the guy. I don't think that will make them even think twice about trading him or not.

[HokieRed]

I'll predict we do not trade Alonso because Walt Jocketty knows a franchise player when he has one and that everybody around the league is well aware of Alonso and would love to take him off our hands.

[Scrap Irony]

I'm guessing he goes before August.

[remdog]

Just remember to keep the BIG PICTURE in mind here. I don't think ANYBODY wants the Reds to make it to the playoffs this year and then not sniff it again the rest of the decade.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think everyone here (except you possibly :-) )would be thrilled if the Reds make it to the playoffs. Your opportunity to make postseason play only comes around every so often and it's better to make it for one year than wimp out and still not make it for another 10 years---which is a very verifiable possibility.

Rem

[_Sir_Charles_]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. I DO want to make the playoffs and I'd be thrilled if we did. I just don't want to see the club mortgage the future to do it. Clearer?

I'm all for making some moves if we're right there in the thick of things...but I don't want to see us sell low on someone like Alonso this early in the season when we clearly still don't know where we'll be in August. And one move won't come close to filling all the holes on this club. It'll take more than adding Cain...and that's like one of the last moves I'd consider. I don't have a problem with adding a nice starter, but we've got more pressing problems to address than that.

[Raisor]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. I DO want to make the playoffs and I'd be thrilled if we did. I just don't want to see the club mortgage the future to do it. Clearer?

.

They'e 1.5 games out of first, and are actually on the plus side of Pythagoras. Oh, AND it's been a LONG time between playoff appearances. I think you have to go for it.

With Votto out, I think you have to roll the dice on Alonso. He needs to be up today. Dusty should bench Taveras and start Dickerson's .365 OBP in CF. And Walt has to get another stick. I know we're supposed to say that there's no way that they'd ever bring Dunn back, but the GM that signed him is gone and the Nats are going nowhere fast.

Being so close at the start of June is what makes last Oct-April so frustrating. There are 58 batters in the majors with an OPS of over .850. Having one more on the roster in place of the .208 .281 .344 line of suck that the LF by committee has given the team would mean being in first at this point.

[OnBaseMachine]

Being so close at the start of June is what makes last Oct-April so frustrating. There are 58 batters in the majors with an OPS of over .850. Having one more on the roster in place of the .208 .281 .344 line of suck that the LF by committee has given the team would mean being in first at this point.

Ain't that the truth. The Reds are 5-8 in one run games. Only five teams in the majors have lost more one run games than the Reds. Having another big bat in the lineup could be the difference in being 7-6 in one run games as opposed to 5-8.

[Falls City Beer]

This is what happens when you go el-cheapo. Ounce of prevention...

[Eric_the_Red]

Winning now vs. staying the course & building for the future brings up an interesting question as to which is more important to fans. I know nothing is guaranteed, but if I could guarantee you the Reds to make the World Series this year but no other playoff appearances in the next 9 seasons, would you take it? Or would you prefer a team that does not make the playoffs this year, but shows improvement over the next 2-3 seasons and makes the playoffs twice with no guarantee of the World Series?

Personally, I'd take the World Series guarantee.

[TheNext44]

Winning now vs. staying the course & building for the future brings up an interesting question as to which is more important to fans. I know nothing is guaranteed, but if I could guarantee you the Reds to make the World Series this year but no other playoff appearances in the next 9 seasons, would you take it? Or would you prefer a team that does not make the playoffs this year, but shows improvement over the next 2-3 seasons and makes the playoffs twice with no guarantee of the World Series?

Personally, I'd take the World Series guarantee.

With this club I would take the other option.

With its rotation and bullpen, this current Reds team would have an excellent chance of making the Series at least once if they made it into the playoffs the next three years.

Also, long term playoff success means more fans, which means more revenue, which means higher payroll, which means more playoff success. With a smart GM like Jocketty, if he can get the Reds into playoff contention two or three years in a row, I think it would be easy for him to keep it up for quite awhile. Look at what happened with Brewers and his Cards.

[Mario-Rijo]

Winning now vs. staying the course & building for the future brings up an interesting question as to which is more important to fans. I know nothing is guaranteed, but if I could guarantee you the Reds to make the World Series this year but no other playoff appearances in the next 9 seasons, would you take it? Or would you prefer a team that does not make the playoffs this year, but shows improvement over the next 2-3 seasons and makes the playoffs twice with no guarantee of the World Series?

Personally, I'd take the World Series guarantee.

I say why choose? Trading Alonso would likely gaurantee us a nice player in return that will help us win now and in the future. You don't trade that type of prospect unless you get back both IMO. BTW Walt traded only one other major prospect away (Haren) and got at the time a FOR starter (Mulder). Even though that trade didn't much help St. Louis it didn't really hurt them either, they ended up with a W/S anyhow. You don't stop acquiring good players just because you trade one away. Walt just needs to do a better job of finding a guy that doesn't look to be injured in less than 2 years after we get him.

Speaking of Mulder I'd think now is a good time to check in on him if he hasn't signed with someone already. Judging from Bailey, Owings and not having yet seen Maloney we may need another starter.

[_Sir_Charles_]

They'e 1.5 games out of first, and are actually on the plus side of Pythagoras. Oh, AND it's been a LONG time between playoff appearances. I think you have to go for it.

With Votto out, I think you have to roll the dice on Alonso. He needs to be up today. Dusty should bench Taveras and start Dickerson's .365 OBP in CF. And Walt has to get another stick. I know we're supposed to say that there's no way that they'd ever bring Dunn back, but the GM that signed him is gone and the Nats are going nowhere fast.

Being so close at the start of June is what makes last Oct-April so frustrating. There are 58 batters in the majors with an OPS of over .850. Having one more on the roster in place of the .208 .281 .344 line of suck that the LF by committee has given the team would mean being in first at this point.

And if Votto is out for the majority of the season? Or Phillips? Or Edwin?

It's too early for a "go for broke" attitude IMO. I know people are thirsty for a winner...but NOW is the time for patience. Going for broke now may, MAY, get us to the post season...but it also may set us back a few YEARS in terms of development. Changing tack midstream is exactly what's screwed us in the past. Pick a strategy...AND STICK WITH IT.

Now, if at the trade deadline, we're in the thick of things...absolutely, go for it. But again, with an eye towards the future as well as the present.


Miyagi: Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape

[Raisor]

And if Votto is out for the majority of the season? Or Phillips? Or Edwin?

It's too early for a "go for broke" attitude IMO. I know people are thirsty for a winner...but NOW is the time for patience. Going for broke now may, MAY, get us to the post season...but it also may set us back a few YEARS in terms of development. Changing tack midstream is exactly what's screwed us in the past. Pick a strategy...AND STICK WITH IT.

Now, if at the trade deadline, we're in the thick of things...absolutely, go for it. But again, with an eye towards the future as well as the present.

Sometimes you pick the year, other times the year picks you.


Reds are right in the thick of the NL Central in both RS and RA. The time to strike is NOW. Walt needs to do his magic and try to get another bat and then try to get some kind of lead in the division, then hold on for dear life.

Picard: "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far and no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!

[HokieRed]

Alonso's 2 for 2 tonight; he's already a better option than anybody we might acquire.

[Falls City Beer]

Alonso's 2 for 2 tonight; he's already a better option than anybody we might acquire.

I think we're getting a taste of the "Wait-Till-Next-Year" blues; the Reds have thrown their best at Milwaukee, and they're just flat kicking them around.

Might be time to re-think contention strategies, particularly in light of Votto's prolonged absence, the injuries, the strength of the rest of the division.

In fact, I'm certain: no reason to waste an option in what is shaping up to be a lost year.

[TheNext44]

I think we're getting a taste of the "Wait-Till-Next-Year" blues; the Reds have thrown their best at Milwaukee, and they're just flat kicking them around.

Might be time to re-think contention strategies, particularly in light of Votto's prolonged absence, the injuries, the strength of the rest of the division.

In fact, I'm certain: no reason to waste an option in what is shaping up to be a lost year.

No Votto, no EE, a catcher at 1B...

I hope that's not the Reds best.

Anyway, it's two games.

Milwaukee will falter in the fall, trust me. Not enough pitching, and not enough resources to get any more. Roughly the same team faded last year and that was with the addition of Sabathia.

They also are not a very good defensive team. Lack of solid run prevention always catches up to a team. They remind me of the 87 Reds.

As long as they keep getting solid pitching, starting and the pen, the Reds will stay in contention. They key is if they go for it and get a big bat near the trading deadline.

[Falls City Beer]

No Votto, no EE, a catcher at 1B...

I hope that's not the Reds best.

Anyway, it's two games.

Milwaukee will falter in the fall, trust me. Not enough pitching, and not enough resources to get any more. Roughly the same team faded last year and that was with the addition of Sabathia.

They also are not a very good defensive team. Lack of solid run prevention always catches up to a team. They remind me of the 87 Reds.

As long as they keep getting solid pitching, starting and the pen, the Reds will stay in contention. They key is if they go for it and get a big bat near the trading deadline.

The problem is the Reds' pitching hasn't really been all that solid the last few weeks. It's been kind of mixed bag mess. Arroyo--currently pitching his best baseball all season--has a 5.00 + ERA, Harang's getting his warm-weather correction, Owings has been pretty crummy, Volquez has been so-so (but gimpy). Obviously Cueto's been excellent, but that's not enough.

The offense--with Votto--was probably slated to be a bit above NL average, but without, that's probably not going to happen.

[OnBaseMachine]

The problem is the Reds' pitching hasn't really been all that solid the last few weeks. It's been kind of mixed bag mess. Arroyo--currently pitching his best baseball all season--has a 5.00 + ERA, Harang's getting his warm-weather correction, Owings has been pretty crummy, Volquez has been so-so (but gimpy). Obviously Cueto's been excellent, but that's not enough.

The offense--with Votto--was probably slated to be a bit above NL average, but without, that's probably not going to happen.

The pitching entered tonight fifth in the majors in ERA. Pick on something else.

[Falls City Beer]

Reds will drop at least two spots after tonight, down to 7th in the NL. Slightly above NL-average. Owings goes tomorrow. Count on them falling another spot. See how it works?

[OnBaseMachine]

Reds will drop at least two spots after tonight, down to 7th in the NL. Slightly above NL-average. Owings goes tomorrow. Count on them falling another spot. See how it works?

You obviously didn't read my post correctly. The Reds are fifth in the MAJORS, NOT THE NL. Well above NL-average. See how it works?

[Falls City Beer]

You obviously didn't read my post correctly. The Reds are fifth in the MAJORS, NOT THE NL. Well above NL-average. See how it works?

5th in the majors is the same thing as 5th in the NL; all the teams in front of them are NL teams. No surprise.

[OnBaseMachine]

5th in the majors is the same thing as 5th in the NL; all the teams in front of them are NL teams. No surprise.

Fifth in the majors is fifth in the majors.

[Falls City Beer]

Fifth in the majors is fifth in the majors.

And it's also fifth in the NL.

[remdog]

Back to the OF: The Reds might have had Juan Rivera for about $3M (IIRC). He's currently .305/.346./444./789. He made a terrific catch last night to take away an HR and just missed a second.

Any thoughts or opinions about the Reds missing out on Juan?

Rem

[Falls City Beer]

Back to the OF: The Reds might have had Juan Rivera for about $3M (IIRC). He's currently .305/.346./444./789. He made a terrific catch last night to take away an HR and just missed a second.

Any thoughts or opinions about the Reds missing out on Juan?

Rem

They missed out on him. What else is there to say? IIRC, he had no designs on ever leaving LA, so who cares?

[remdog]

They missed out on him. What else is there to say? IIRC, he had no designs on ever leaving LA, so who cares?

Well, I'd assume you don't care so I guess the question is, why did you bother to reply?

While I appreciate your contribution I'm looking for input from multiple people.

Rivera every day or did the Reds do better with a platoon of Nix/Gomes? Olney says the Reds are looking for OF help but ......(famous shrug).

Rem

[Falls City Beer]

Well, I'd assume you don't care so I guess the question is, why did you bother to reply?



Rem

Because it's like asking: "What do you think about the Reds missing out on Catfish Hunter?"

Rivera's not going anywhere and the Reds never had a chance anyway.

[remdog]

Rivera's not going anywhere and the Reds never had a chance anyway.

I don't particularly agree with that. There was a lot of talk here in the OC that he was unhappy with the playing time he was getting with Angels stocked OF. Many people speculated that he would leave for some place that he could play full-time. Also, players have been known to change their loyality for a little extra money. Whitness our own esteemed Coco Cordero.

Besides, I'm really asking would the Reds be happy with Rivera in LF full time vs. Gomes/Nix? If you'd like to reply to that question then I'd seriously like to hear your opinion.

Rem

[jojo]

Fifth in the majors is fifth in the majors.

Fifth in the majors is a bit misleading because the AL is a higher run environment but ya, the Reds rotation is a strength for them.

[jojo]

I don't particularly agree with that. There was a lot of talk here in the OC that he was unhappy with the playing time he was getting with Angels stocked OF. Many people speculated that he would leave for some place that he could play full-time. Also, players have been known to change their loyality for a little extra money. Whitness our own esteemed Coco Cordero.

Besides, I'm really asking would the Reds be happy with Rivera in LF full time vs. Gomes/Nix? If you'd like to reply to that question then I'd seriously like to hear your opinion.

Rem

I think the Reds would love his defense. That said, while Rivera has annihilated lefties, he has been emasculated against righties so there would probably be gnashing of teeth with him (though he's better against righties than his numbers reflect this season).

I think he would've been an upgrade.

[TheNext44]

Roughly adjusting all teams ERA's to equalize the extra offense that is in the AL, the Reds came into tonight 9th in the majors in ERA. Not sure where they will be after tonight, but the lowest they can be is 10th, I believe. They will be somewhere in the top 3rd.

As for Rivera, he signed a 3 year 13.75M contract. Rumors were that the Reds were close, but he chose the Angels because they were his first choice.

To get him to come here, who knows what it would cost? Maybe there was no hope, but judging from what he took, it would have taken at least, either a 3 year $17M contract or a 4 year $22M contract.

He definitely would have been an upgrade, but do you really want to overpay for a Juan Rivera?

[Jpup]

The Reds need to pry Mark Reynolds away from Arizona. It might be a little tougher with Tracy hurt, but they have Whitesell too. I'd send them Drew Stubbs and some kind of useful arm for him.

[Crosley68]

Mark Reynolds would drive the natives insane. Especially Marty.

[Sea Ray]

You obviously didn't read my post correctly. The Reds are fifth in the MAJORS, NOT THE NL. Well above NL-average. See how it works?


Not 5th in the NL?

[Falls City Beer]

They're sixth in the NL, eighth in the majors today. Like a fat person rolling down the stairs in slow-motion.

This staff is just poor enough. Better, but clearly not ready for prime time.

[Highlifeman21]

They're sixth in the NL, eighth in the majors today. Like a fat person rolling down the stairs in slow-motion.

This staff is just poor enough. Better, but clearly not ready for prime time.

And the problem seems to be that there's nothing waiting in the wings to make them ready for prime time.

I thought Harang could and would be our true staff ace, but unfortunately he's not.

I still haven't made up my mind about Cueto and Volquez, since they're the only other in-house options we have that have a remote chance to be a true staff ace.

[OnBaseMachine]

They're sixth in the NL, eighth in the majors today. Like a fat person rolling down the stairs in slow-motion.

This staff is just poor enough. Better, but clearly not ready for prime time.

One bad game and now the pitching staff is bad. Where were these posts after Arroyo held the Astros to one run? Or after Cueto held the Brewers to three runs? Even the best pitching staffs in the game have their share of bad games throughout the season.

[OnBaseMachine]

I thought Harang could and would be our true staff ace, but unfortunately he's not.


Harang entered last night with a 3.36 ERA, which was good enough for 13th in the NL. He had a bad night, it happens. He's back to his normal self, which is 200+ innings of above average baseball and being one of the more underrated pitchers in baseball, especially in the eyes of his own fanbase.

[LoganBuck]

Josh Willingham has posted a 1.018 OPS for May, while earning more playing time. It is going to take more than Matt Maloney to get him now.

[CTA513]

The Reds need to pry Mark Reynolds away from Arizona. It might be a little tougher with Tracy hurt, but they have Whitesell too. I'd send them Drew Stubbs and some kind of useful arm for him.


Reynolds is an error machine and is on his way to another 200 K season.

I would rather see what Stubbs can do before trading him for someone like Reynolds.

[RollyInRaleigh]

One bad game and now the pitching staff is bad. Where were these posts after Arroyo held the Astros to one run? Or after Cueto held the Brewers to three runs? Even the best pitching staffs in the game have their share of bad games throughout the season.

Best starting pitching that the Reds have had in years and some people continue to rail against the staff. Amazing. I'm with you, OBM.

[KoryMac5]

Harang entered last night with a 3.36 ERA, which was good enough for 13th in the NL. He had a bad night, it happens. He's back to his normal self, which is 200+ innings of above average baseball and being one of the more underrated pitchers in baseball, especially in the eyes of his own fanbase.

Harang's stuff looked pretty average tonight and for the most part he has looked pretty average all year. I would imagine that 3.36 ERA will be rising pretty steadily for the rest of the year especially with the league batting .290off of him.

[KoryMac5]

Best starting pitching that the Reds have had in years and some people continue to rail against the staff. Amazing. I'm with you, OBM.

That says more about how bad the staff has been over the last few years than it does the posters.

[OnBaseMachine]

Harang's stuff looked pretty average tonight and for the most part he has looked pretty average all year. I would imagine that 3.36 ERA will be rising pretty steadily for the rest of the year especially with the league batting .290off of him.

I disagree with that. I think Harang's stuff has looked just fine. It looks the same to me as it did two years ago. He currently has a 15 BB/61 K ratio, so he's obviously doing something right.

[Falls City Beer]

That says more about how bad the staff has been over the last few years than it does the posters.

Yep.

[deltachi8]

That says more about how bad the staff has been over the last few years than it does the posters.

Yes. Improved is one thing, good is another, and "ready for prime time" is a third. I would say the Reds staff is between choices 1 and 2 now...

[Degenerate39]

They're sixth in the NL, eighth in the majors today. Like a fat person rolling down the stairs in slow-motion.

This staff is just poor enough. Better, but clearly not ready for prime time.

Man I'm glad I wasn't around here in 2001. When the pitching staff was actually bad. I can't imagine what was said about that staff

[Kc61]

I disagree with that. I think Harang's stuff has looked just fine. It looks the same to me as it did two years ago. He currently has a 15 BB/61 K ratio, so he's obviously doing something right.



Of eleven starts this year, Harang has had good results six times, bad results, four times, marginal results once. Two of his bad outings and his marginal outing were all against Houston. His other two bad ones were at SD and at Milwaukee.

His home ERA is 2.84 his road ERA is 5.87.

Harang did better in April than in May.

Strikes me that he's pitched well, just that certain matchups have caused him more trouble than others, particularly on the road. Pretty good, not dominant.

His last two outings have been marginal and bad. Hopefully it's not a trend and he comes back strong next time.

[Highlifeman21]

Harang entered last night with a 3.36 ERA, which was good enough for 13th in the NL. He had a bad night, it happens. He's back to his normal self, which is 200+ innings of above average baseball and being one of the more underrated pitchers in baseball, especially in the eyes of his own fanbase.

I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher or not valuable to the Reds.

What I am saying is that he's not a true staff ace. Since every team in baseball has a #1 pitcher, Harang is by default our #1 pitcher.

But in reality, there's not 30 true staff aces out there. There's probably only 1/2 that number, maybe even less.

IMO, for the Reds to finally turn the corner and leave the lost decade as a memory of the past, they need a true staff ace. As I previously said, maybe that could be Cueto or Volquez, but we just don't know yet.

I think we know about Harang that he's a good pitcher, but he's not a true staff ace, but he still has plenty of value to the Reds.

[Highlifeman21]

That says more about how bad the staff has been over the last few years than it does the posters.

Bingo

Harang has been great for us, but he hasn't been enough, and that's not his fault.

We just need more and better pitching to compliment Harang, Cueto and Volquez.

[RollyInRaleigh]

That says more about how bad the staff has been over the last few years than it does the posters.

That's funny! To each his own. The Reds could run Sandy Koufax out every night and some of the posters would find something wrong.

[Big Klu]

That's funny! To each his own. The Reds could run Sandy Koufax out every night and some of the posters would find something wrong.

Of course! Don't you know that Dusty is overworking Sandy? :D

[Highlifeman21]

That's funny! To each his own. The Reds could run Sandy Koufax out every night and some of the posters would find something wrong.

If the Reds ran Koufax out there every night, I'd complain that they pitched him on no rest...

The Reds could run Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn out there as a 5 man rotation and I'm sure I'd continue to gripe about not giving those 5 guys enough run support.

We knew the offense was going to be pathetic this year, which meant the pitching had to be that much better.

[klw]

If the Reds ran Koufax out there every night, I'd complain that they pitched him on no rest...

The Reds could run Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn out there as a 5 man rotation and I'm sure I'd continue to gripe about not giving those 5 guys enough run support.

.

I would gripe that the members of your 5 man rotation are more used to being in a 4 man rotation.

[Falls City Beer]

If the Reds ran Koufax out there every night, I'd complain that they pitched him on no rest...

The Reds could run Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn out there as a 5 man rotation and I'm sure I'd continue to gripe about not giving those 5 guys enough run support.

We knew the offense was going to be pathetic this year, which meant the pitching had to be that much better.

The Reds are 9th in the NL in runs scored; 6th in the NL in ERA. Neither one is bringing home any trophies anytime soon.

[traderumor]

I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher or not valuable to the Reds.

What I am saying is that he's not a true staff ace. Since every team in baseball has a #1 pitcher, Harang is by default our #1 pitcher.

But in reality, there's not 30 true staff aces out there. There's probably only 1/2 that number, maybe even less.

IMO, for the Reds to finally turn the corner and leave the lost decade as a memory of the past, they need a true staff ace. As I previously said, maybe that could be Cueto or Volquez, but we just don't know yet.

I think we know about Harang that he's a good pitcher, but he's not a true staff ace, but he still has plenty of value to the Reds.Funny, I saw him referred to as just that after his gem against Philadelphia. It seems, as strange as that may sound, that fans may be fickle :confused:

[GAC]

Our pitching, while much improved, is simply not enough to offset this middle-tier offense that has it's holes. It hasn't helped this offense that Votto has been in and out, Bruce has shown such inconsistency, and EE is DL'd.

Personally, from what I've seen so far, we are a better ball club, but we'll fall short in the long run. But it certainly is better then what we've ran out there in this decade. It's definitely something for Walt to build on (tweek).

[Falls City Beer]

Our pitching, while much improved, is simply not enough to offset this middle-tier offense that has it's holes. It hasn't helped this offense that Votto has been in and out, Bruce has shown such inconsistency, and EE is DL'd.

Personally, from what I've seen so far, we are a better ball club, but we'll fall short in the long run. But it certainly is better then what we've ran out there in this decade. It's definitely something for Walt to build on (tweek).

Well said. Good summary.

[Ron Madden]

Man I'm glad I wasn't around here in 2001. When the pitching staff was actually bad. I can't imagine what was said about that staff

We'd most likely see the same members complaining about the pitching and the same members defending the pitching staff.



;)

[kaldaniels]

The Reds are 9th in the NL in runs scored; 6th in the NL in ERA. Neither one is bringing home any trophies anytime soon.

9+6=15 (How many clubs are better?)

Look, I'll be the 1st to say that at the above rankings, the Reds aren't bringing home any World Series trophies..but that is the recipe for an above .500 club, which I'd say at seasons start was an optimistic yet realistic goal. No gripes from me at this point in the year at 9th in runs and 6th in ERA. How many teams sum up to less than 15 is my question (The Reds are probably top 1/3 of the NL is my guess) . I think all things considered, this team, if anything, has outperformed expectations. What is wrong with acknowleging that without the addition of a snide jab.

[BCubb2003]

Of course! Don't you know that Dusty is overworking Sandy? :D

We'd spend the first six years of Koufax's career complaining about his losing record, his wildness and how he seems to be regressing. Why can't we trade him for a proven 15-game winner like Milt Pappas?

[SMcGavin]

The Reds are 9th in the NL in runs scored; 6th in the NL in ERA. Neither one is bringing home any trophies anytime soon.

The ballpark has something to do with that too: ERA+ 112, OPS+ 92. The pitching has been significantly better than the hitting so far.

I really feel like the hitting was due to slip too even before Votto went out, with Votto, Phillips, Hairston, Nix, Hanigan all performing above expectations (and just EdE and Gonzalez due for improvements).

It's not that I think the pitching is anything amazing, IMO it will end the year as an average to slightly above average bunch, but I think that will be enough to make the Reds significantly better at preventing runs than scoring them.

[TheNext44]

The Reds really are just one big bat in LF away from being a serious contender. That bat is needed even more now that Votto is out.

Jocketty has already said as much, and he usually accomplishes what he desires. The Reds will get a big bat this year, it just is a matter of who and when.

[jojo]

The Reds really are just one big bat in LF away from being a serious contender. That bat is needed even more now that Votto is out.

Jocketty has already said as much, and he usually accomplishes what he desires. The Reds will get a big bat this year, it just is a matter of who and when.

I think its a long shot at best that the Reds will increase payroll significantly and it's likely they'll try to ride out the storm by relying on their rotation.

[TheNext44]

I think its a long shot at best that the Reds will increase payroll significantly and it's likely they'll try to ride out the storm by relying on their rotation.

I agree with the first part, and kinda the second. If the Reds start to falter, even a bit, Cast will tell Jocketty to pull the trigger.

There are decent upgrades available for not much salary addition. And even guys like Holiday, would only be for a few months. This close to a winner, I can't see Cast letting the team fade away. But I've been wrong before.

[Mario-Rijo]

The ballpark has something to do with that too: ERA+ 112, OPS+ 92. The pitching has been significantly better than the hitting so far.

I really feel like the hitting was due to slip too even before Votto went out, with Votto, Phillips, Hairston, Nix, Hanigan all performing above expectations (and just EdE and Gonzalez due for improvements).

It's not that I think the pitching is anything amazing, IMO it will end the year as an average to slightly above average bunch, but I think that will be enough to make the Reds significantly better at preventing runs than scoring them.

We might not yet be where we'd like to be. However when I look at our staff the next thing I look at is the opposition. And frankly that makes us one of the better (starting) staffs in the NL. If we don't finish in the top 3rd I'll be shocked and that too me is better than slightly above average.

[Razor Shines]

I agree with the first part, and kinda the second. If the Reds start to falter, even a bit, Cast will tell Jocketty to pull the trigger.

There are decent upgrades available for not much salary addition. And even guys like Holiday, would only be for a few months. This close to a winner, I can't see Cast letting the team fade away. But I've been wrong before.

I don't know. I haven't really seen any evidence of Cast wanting to spend the kind of money it's going to take. If he was willing to spend the kind of money to get a big bat why didn't he do it before the season? He went with the cheap cop-out and signed Willy T. So instead of spending more money and getting value he wasted six million so he could say "hey, we tried."

[nate]

The Reds really are just one big bat in LF away from being a serious contender. That bat is needed even more now that Votto is out.

Jocketty has already said as much, and he usually accomplishes what he desires. The Reds will get a big bat this year, it just is a matter of who and when.

I dunno. I'm thinking the Reds are more like two big bats (and that's if Votto comes back), one rotation arm and a bullpen arm away from being SERIOUS contenders.

To be "if everything goes right" contenders, maybe the one bat will be enough.

[deltachi8]

I dunno. I'm thinking the Reds are more like two big bats (and that's if Votto comes back), one rotation arm and a bullpen arm away from being SERIOUS contenders.

To be "if everything goes right" contenders, maybe the one bat will be enough.

Thats a pretty good assessment, IMHO.

[HokieRed]

I dunno. I'm thinking the Reds are more like two big bats (and that's if Votto comes back), one rotation arm and a bullpen arm away from being SERIOUS contenders.

To be "if everything goes right" contenders, maybe the one bat will be enough.

Good assessment. I think one bat could be enough if Votto comes back, Phillips maintains a decent level of OPS against righties, and EE can get back in a couple of weeks and put up something like 2008 numbers the rest of the way. Since I think it's unlikely all these will happen, I think it's more like 2 additional bats. I'm not sure we need another rotation arm as much as we need more experience across much of the rotation (3/5 of it to be precise) and we're going to need more bullpen depth. Also, the division is pretty strong and I just don't see the wildcard coming from the Central this year--or, to put that otherwise, I don't see how both Phil. and NYM don't make it, particularly with all those games against Wash.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

If Holliday does come here via trade in the next month or two, what are the chances he signs here long-term ala Mark McGwire in St. Louis in the '90s? Similar situations: both big right-handed sluggers, both with the A's, both traded to a Midwest team that wears red :)

[_Sir_Charles_]

I dunno. I'm thinking the Reds are more like two big bats (and that's if Votto comes back), one rotation arm and a bullpen arm away from being SERIOUS contenders.

To be "if everything goes right" contenders, maybe the one bat will be enough.

Bingo. We're much closer than we've been in the past, but not there yet. I prefer if we just hold down the fort for the majority of this year and let the young players develop. The only transactions I want to see are minor leaguers getting the occasional shot. If we're really in the thick of things come the trade deadline, I wouldn't mind us going for a bat...but only if it's not too expensive in terms of young talent.

[Chip R]

If Holliday does come here via trade in the next month or two, what are the chances he signs here long-term ala Mark McGwire in St. Louis in the '90s? Similar situations: both big right-handed sluggers, both with the A's, both traded to a Midwest team that wears red :)


Who is his agent again?

[jojo]

Who is his agent again?

Satan (Scott Boras).

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Who is his agent again?

Touche.

But then again, the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs/Dodgers can't sign everybody.

[Scrap Irony]

And the Mets. Don't forget the Mets.

[HokieRed]

Bingo. We're much closer than we've been in the past, but not there yet. I prefer if we just hold down the fort for the majority of this year and let the young players develop. The only transactions I want to see are minor leaguers getting the occasional shot. If we're really in the thick of things come the trade deadline, I wouldn't mind us going for a bat...but only if it's not too expensive in terms of young talent.


My position exactly.

[TheNext44]

I dunno. I'm thinking the Reds are more like two big bats (and that's if Votto comes back), one rotation arm and a bullpen arm away from being SERIOUS contenders.

To be "if everything goes right" contenders, maybe the one bat will be enough.

I understand where you're coming from however....

The Reds are definitely very much in contention, if not not serious contention right now, and not only has not everything gone right, but at the very least has had as much go wrong than any other team they are competing against.

Reds Bad Luck:

Losing Votto for two weeks worth of games. That's like the Cards losing Pujols or the Brewers losing Braun. The Cards did lose Ankiel, the Brewers Weeks, and the Cubs Ramirez. Only the Cubs are close in comparison, and they have other bats to fill his void.

Losing EE for pretty much the whole season so far. He was a key RH power bat in that lineup.

Losing Volquez, the Ace of the staff for two weeks. Granted he has not been the Ace this year, but he was pitching like a solid #2-3 pitcher.

Major slumps by EE, Gonzo, Dickerson, Phillips to start the season.

These are not issues that other teams don't also deal with, nor are they catastrophic. But I think this shows that the Reds can and have overcome adversity, and do not need "everything to go right" for them to compete.

The Reds are in contention, without a RH power bat, and not everything has gone right so far. Give them a RH bat, with the same luck and they move up to serious contention. Just my opinion.

[Chip R]

Touche.

But then again, the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs/Dodgers can't sign everybody.


Can't they?

[redsfan4445]

Per another post about Harang or Arroyo possibly in the future on the block. Michael Taylor would be my choice to be dealt for. Philly wants a starting pitcher.. Offer Harang or Arroyo in a package for Michael Taylor.. He will fit in alot better for the long term than a short term fix as a Dye would be.. Taylor batting between Votto and Bruce would look real good.. for the next 5-6 years..!!:)