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Will M
05-28-2009, 12:34 AM
In the game last night either Welsh or Brantley talked about Owings tiring after ~75 pitches. They had stats to back it up (they were ugly) and showed what his arm angle/motion was doing in the 4th & 5th innings that it wasn't doing in the first 3 innings.

My question for those who know more than me: is this due to his shoulder injury and he needs time to rebuild arm strength or is this a sign that he needs to be in the bullpen?

TheNext44
05-28-2009, 01:03 AM
Maybe he gets tired from hitting so many extra base hits? :cool:

bucksfan2
05-28-2009, 10:14 AM
In the game last night either Welsh or Brantley talked about Owings tiring after ~75 pitches. They had stats to back it up (they were ugly) and showed what his arm angle/motion was doing in the 4th & 5th innings that it wasn't doing in the first 3 innings.

My question for those who know more than me: is this due to his shoulder injury and he needs time to rebuild arm strength or is this a sign that he needs to be in the bullpen?

Heat? Humidity? Max Effort? I wouldn't underestimate how the humidity can effect you when you aren't ready for it and you are struggling.

Will M
05-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Heat? Humidity? Max Effort? I wouldn't underestimate how the humidity can effect you when you aren't ready for it and you are struggling.

it wasn't just the game tuesday. all season his ERA/WHIP rises dramatically after ~75 pitches.

nate
05-28-2009, 11:34 AM
Is the difference more pronounced than other pitchers? What's typical?

flyer85
05-28-2009, 11:52 AM
or maybe the hitters have seen all he has the first two times through the lineup. Owings has no out pitch and once the hitters have adjusted he is in serious trouble unless his command is spot on.

RichRed
05-28-2009, 11:57 AM
or maybe the hitters have seen all he has the first two times through the lineup. Owings has no out pitch and once the hitters have adjusted he is in serious trouble unless his command is spot on.

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe he's just got an old-fashioned case of #5pitcheritis.

Redmachine2003
05-28-2009, 08:16 PM
hasn't he been hurt on and off the last couple of years cutting down his innings.

wheels
05-28-2009, 08:27 PM
I would like him a lot as a long man. In a perfect world Bailey or Maloney put it together, bumping Owings to the pen.

BCubb2003
05-28-2009, 08:35 PM
hasn't he been hurt on and off the last couple of years cutting down his innings.

That was my thought, too. He's being stretched this season more than ever.

VR
05-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Had a long break to start the year w/o pitching as well....didn't he?

redsfan4445
05-28-2009, 09:23 PM
he went from starter to reliever in the extra innings game back to starter on short rest.. with the way the rest are pitching.. he doesnt hurt.. plus his bat in a game or pinch hitting is a huge plus too

Jpup
05-29-2009, 06:38 PM
I would like him a lot as a long man. In a perfect world Bailey or Maloney put it together, bumping Owings to the pen.

I'm not sure how much more Maloney could get it together. He deserved a chance a long time ago.

backbencher
05-29-2009, 07:22 PM
Putting Owings in the pen wastes his bat. In other words, no thanks.

As a starter, he gets the regular ABs of his starts and he is available as a PH on his off-days. As a reliever, he'll get one AB, at most, on the days that he pitches and rarely bat at all on the days that he doesn't (as he won't be in the dugout and won't be used as a PH if he still might be a RP).

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2009, 08:36 PM
Putting Owings in the pen wastes his bat. In other words, no thanks.

I disagree with this assessment, and I've heard it numerous times. Why is it wasted if he's in the pen? It just means he needs to be used more creatively. Instead of plugging in the relief pitcher in a spot to AVOID his bat, you do it the other way around. And whether he's pitched 2 or 3 days in a row doesn't stop you from still using him as a PH'er. As a long reliever, he's even MORE versatile than most. Because you're not forced to pull him to bring in a pinch hitter. It just takes a different train of thought from how we've grown accustomed to seeing relievers used.

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 02:41 PM
I've been disappointed in Owings this season. His stuff is worse than I thought, and his control is subpar too. Below average stuff + below average control = bad results. I'd like to see Owings sent to the bullpen and let someone like Matt Maloney get a chance. Maloney pitched a complete game 3 hit shutout today with 0 BB/10 K. He's now got a 2.00 ERA and 9 BB/58 K in 67.1 innings at Louisville. He's not a guarantee to come up and out pitch Owings, but it's worth a shot.

Chip R
06-01-2009, 02:48 PM
I've been disappointed in Owings this season. His stuff is worse than I thought, and his control is subpar too. Below average stuff + below average control = bad results. I'd like to see Owings sent to the bullpen and let someone like Matt Maloney get a chance. Maloney pitched a complete game 3 hit shutout today with 0 BB/10 K. He's now got a 2.00 ERA and 9 BB/58 K in 67.1 innings at Louisville. He's not a guarantee to come up and out pitch Owings, but it's worth a shot.


Would you like Josh Fogg back?

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 02:50 PM
Would you like Josh Fogg back?

I'd settle for Todd Wellemeyer.

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Would you like Josh Fogg back?

No, I would like to see Matt Maloney get a chance.

Owings stuff doesn't appear to be as good as it was pre-shoulder injury. His K/9 has dropped off and his walks are increasing. He's better than Fogg, but that's not saying much.

remdog
06-01-2009, 02:55 PM
Remember Phil Dumatrait? Might have been, as you like to say, the best minor league lefty you've ever seen in the Reds system. Didn't turn out so well.

Owings has been a lot better than what the Reds had in the fifth spot last year and his performance, even though the Reds lost the game, in San Diego was excellent. He stepped up and took one for the team. Plus he brings a bat that is something that the Reds need badly. He's had a couple of rough outings that have wacked his numbers but he's had some excellent outings as well. Overall, I'm happy with his performance---much moreso than Josh Fogg, for instance.

I'd like to see Maloney get a shot, as well. But it should have been the start that Homer got. I'm also not believeing that Maloney is going to be the key to the Reds making the playoffs. He's been in AAA for three years for a reason.

Rem

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 02:55 PM
Todd Wellemeyer - 5.02 ERA, 5.49 K/9, .823 OPS against

Micah Owings - 5.10 ERA, 5.76 K/9, .797 OPS against

Add in the fact that Owings can hit, and I would rather have Owings.

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 02:55 PM
No, I would like to see Matt Maloney get a chance.

Owings stuff doesn't appear to be as good as it was pre-shoulder injury. His K/9 has dropped off and his walks are increasing. He's better than Fogg, but that's not saying much.

ERA: 5.10
FIP: 5.10

He's gotten what was coming to him. Low innings-pitched, too. The definition of fungible.

Chip R
06-01-2009, 02:56 PM
I'd settle for Todd Wellemeyer.


Unfortunately he pitches for the Cards.

Owings is a #5 starter. Expecting to do better than he has is just fooling yourself. I'd certainly rather have him pitch than the train wreck that is Homer Bailey. Can Owings do better? Sure, but he's putting up decent stats for a #5 starter.

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Todd Wellemeyer - 5.02 ERA, 5.49 K/9, .823 OPS against

Micah Owings - 5.10 ERA, 5.76 K/9, .797 OPS against

I would rather have Owings.

Wellemeyer FIP: 4.39

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Unfortunately he pitches for the Cards.

Owings is a #5 starter. Expecting to do better than he has is just fooling yourself. I'd certainly rather have him pitch than the train wreck that is Homer Bailey. Can Owings do better? Sure, but he's putting up decent stats for a #5 starter.

That the Reds likely don't have a better option isn't a surprise, true.

jojo
06-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Owings is a #5 starter. Expecting to do better than he has is just fooling yourself.

But Owings hits like a #2 starter.... :cool:

remdog
06-01-2009, 03:05 PM
Owings is a #5 starter. Expecting to do better than he has is just fooling yourself. I'd certainly rather have him pitch than the train wreck that is Homer Bailey. Can Owings do better? Sure, but he's putting up decent stats for a #5 starter.

And that's really the question here: would Maloney be a better #5 starter than Owings? (shrug) I don't know but, right now at least, I'm OK with Micah's overall performance.

My guess is that Walt and the Dusty are also.

Rem

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 03:10 PM
The problem is Owings, but it's also Arroyo and Volquez; both have FIP over 5.00. If the Reds want to get better those three have to stop walking people like there's no tomorrow. I'll stop short of saying "it's as simple as that" because it does involve more than that, but boy, that would make a HUGE difference in this team's fortunes.

fearofpopvol1
06-01-2009, 03:14 PM
That the Reds likely don't have a better option isn't a surprise, true.

Sure they do. Maloney at this point is a much better option. I even think Ramon Ramirez would be better.

jojo
06-01-2009, 03:17 PM
Volquez had serious control issues during his first 4 starts but his last four were really closer to what you'd expect from him. Assuming he's not hurt seriously, he should be fine regarding the BBs (low fours per game).

Bronson's problem isn't walks. It's been a shocking inability to miss bats.

Owings, well, he just has no stuff.

Chip R
06-01-2009, 03:18 PM
Sure they do. Maloney at this point is a much better option. I even think Ramon Ramirez would be better.


So, if Maloney comes up, who goes? Certainly not Owings since he's useful in the bullpen and as a pinch hitter. Certainly not Lincoln of the two-year contract. Burton or Fisher are going to AAA when Volquez comes back and if Burton does go to AAA, why would a known quantity like Fisher go down to bring up an unknown quantity like Maloney?

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 03:24 PM
Owings, well, he just has no stuff.

To be fair, neither does Joel Piniero. But he throws it in the zone.

fearofpopvol1
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
So, if Maloney comes up, who goes? Certainly not Owings since he's useful in the bullpen and as a pinch hitter. Certainly not Lincoln of the two-year contract. Burton or Fisher are going to AAA when Volquez comes back and if Burton does go to AAA, why would a known quantity like Fisher go down to bring up an unknown quantity like Maloney?

I know the Reds won't, but I'd send Burton down and DFA Lincoln. I'd bring Maloney up and send Fisher down. I wouldn't say a few innings in relief make him a "known quantity." I like Fisher better than Lincoln, but the Reds could use a starter more than a bullpen arm at this juncture.

jojo
06-01-2009, 03:29 PM
To be fair, neither does Joel Piniero. But he throws it in the zone.

True but Piniero is sitting at +1 on the sine wave with a nasty view of -1....

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 03:31 PM
True but Piniero is sitting at +1 on the sine wave with a nasty view of -1....

I'm guessing this metaphor refers to him seeing a correction? If so, I agree; in no way shape or fashion is Pineiro a 3.33 FIP pitcher.

RedsManRick
06-01-2009, 03:35 PM
Owings has an ERA around 5.00. He's a 5th starter and he's pitching like one. Actually, he's one the better 5th starters in baseball. You certainly don't get rid of your #5 starter because your #3 and #4 guys have struggled.

If Maloney can outproduce Owings, all told, then fine, bring him up. But if you expected something more than a 5.00 ERA from Owings to begin with, your expectations were too high. I'd be absolutely fine with Owings as a long man and pinch hitter, but unless you're cutting Lincoln (not going to hapen) or demoting Burton (shouldn't happen), I don't see where the roster spot is coming from.

TheNext44
06-01-2009, 03:40 PM
The difference between Piniero and Owings is that Piniero has learned to sink his fastball, the big Duncan trick which he teaches all his pitchers.
This year his GB/FB is 2.55. Career it's 1.46. That's a huge jump. If he continues with success with that pitch, he should be pretty good all year. Maybe not as good as he has been, but better than Owings.

The problem with Owing's stuff it's just that he throws mostly one speed with little movement. That leads to a GB/FB of .87. That's really bad unless you are striking out everyone. If he could just get some movement on his fastball, he could be so much better. Not sure if that is possible, though.

Falls City Beer
06-01-2009, 03:48 PM
Owings has an ERA around 5.00. He's a 5th starter and he's pitching like one. Actually, he's one the better 5th starters in baseball. You certainly don't get rid of your #5 starter because your #3 and #4 guys have struggled.

If Maloney can outproduce Owings, all told, then fine, bring him up. But if you expected something more than a 5.00 ERA from Owings to begin with, your expectations were too high. I'd be absolutely fine with Owings as a long man and pinch hitter, but unless you're cutting Lincoln (not going to hapen) or demoting Burton (shouldn't happen), I don't see where the roster spot is coming from.


Why wouldn't it be better for Burton to work on his stuff at AAA instead of getting scorched in the bigs? He's got options.

REDREAD
06-01-2009, 04:53 PM
I really don't think Malony is going to be any better than Ownings.

However, if you really want to audition Maloney, send Burton down for Volquez, and then send Herrara or Fisher down for Maloney..

I still see the Reds as a rebuilding team this year. Part of the mission this year is to figure out if Ownings is worth keeping beyond this year. He's one of the better 5th starters in the league, and relatively young.. I say the Reds should continue to run him out there.

An injury will probably give Malony a chance to pitch at the majors this year, but my guess is that the Reds are not very enamored in him. You'd think if the Reds had any faith in him, he would've been called up before Homer (It's not as if the Reds are enamored with Homer).

remdog
06-01-2009, 04:55 PM
Sure they do. Maloney at this point is a much better option. I even think Ramon Ramirez would be better.

That statement strikes me as similar to trying to walk on water with cement shoes. Theoretically, it could work but it's a stretch.

As I've said before, I'd like to see what Maloney can do but the time to 'give him a tryout' was the game that Homer pitched.

I don't wish an injury on any of the Reds starters but, should it happen, I'd like to see Maloney up. It also might send a message to Homer.

Rem

TRF
06-01-2009, 05:15 PM
So, if Maloney comes up, who goes? Certainly not Owings since he's useful in the bullpen and as a pinch hitter. Certainly not Lincoln of the two-year contract. Burton or Fisher are going to AAA when Volquez comes back and if Burton does go to AAA, why would a known quantity like Fisher go down to bring up an unknown quantity like Maloney?

3 IP is not a known quantity. it's 3 IP.

DFA Lincoln, demote Burton so he can figure out what's wrong, because something is.

Move Micah to the pen for one start. Run Maloney out there and see what you have. You have Micah ready to step in should Maloney falter.

VR
06-01-2009, 05:17 PM
Why wouldn't it be better for Burton to work on his stuff at AAA instead of getting scorched in the bigs? He's got options.

It looks like his (and Lincoln's) 'stuff' is fine. Control is the problem....and either way he needs to be finding it in AAA.

RedsManRick
06-01-2009, 08:00 PM
Why wouldn't it be better for Burton to work on his stuff at AAA instead of getting scorched in the bigs? He's got options.

I don't think he's that far off, but you're probably right. His command is gone and he's lost 2 mph of his cutter. Those sound like either an injury or just rusty mechanics. Hopefully he'll get it worked out and be back soon.