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HotCorner
05-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Per Fay ...



1B Joey Votto today went on the 15-day disabled list with stress-related issues...his spot on the roster was filled by C/IF/OF Wilkin Castillo, who was recalled from Class AAA Louisville.

Castillo is in his second stint with the Reds this season...he was on the roster Sunday and Monday but did not play in either game.

Reds4Life
05-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Votto's problems can't just be an ear infection. Anti-biotics would have cleared that up by now.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Seriously, Wilkin Castillo? He of the .506 OPS in Triple-A? If the Reds are serious at all about staying in the race, they will find a better option than Wilkin Castillo.

Ramon Hernandez is a fine hitter for a catcher, but he doesn't have the bat to play first base for a month. I would bring up Yonder Alonso OR acquire a guy like Russell Branyan.

HotCorner
05-30-2009, 02:15 PM
"Stress-related issues"

Sea Ray
05-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Votto for Castillo is not exactly an even up trade but I am glad they're resting Votto to see where his health goes.

It seems like they're rushing Phillips back. I see no reason to make him tough out a broken thumb. It's still May. Let him heal it up and we'll see him when he's healthy. We have plenty of capable folks who can play 2B.

These injuries do make it tough while we're going through this stretch against division contenders. Seems like now we need to just hang in there 'till folks get back. A 3-4 record in this 7 game stretch is looking like a huge moral victory

Team Clark
05-30-2009, 02:17 PM
I like bringing up Castillo IF and I say IF this means that Hanigan can be used off the bench as a PH when Hernandez is behind the plate.

Kc61
05-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Wouldn't be suprised to see Gomes play some first base now. A lefty would be better but Gomes can hit and helps add back some power. Obviously, Votto can't really be replaced in this organization right now. Castillo will provide flexibility because he can play so many positions.

As for Votto, just have to hope he gets better soon.

Sea Ray
05-30-2009, 02:19 PM
Votto's problems can't just be an ear infection. Anti-biotics would have cleared that up by now.

I'm not convinced they have the right diagnosis yet and that bothers me but if it's viral, antibiotics wouldn't have it cleared up by now anyway. They need to get him in to see a good ear, nose and throat guy.

The possibility of not getting this thing correctly diagnosed was my greatest fear all along.

Kc61
05-30-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm not convinced they have the right diagnosis yet and that bothers me but if it's viral, antibiotics wouldn't have it cleared up by now anyway. They need to get him in to see a good ear, nose and throat guy.

The possibility of not getting this thing correctly diagnosed was my greatest fear all along.

It says stress-related issues.

Sea Ray
05-30-2009, 02:23 PM
It says stress-related issues.

Yeah I know. That's like saying something is auto-immune. It means they don't know, which is my point.

What does that mean to you? I doubt a sports psychologist can heal him.

Kc61
05-30-2009, 02:28 PM
Yeah I know. That's like saying something is auto-immune. It means they don't know, which is my point.

What does that mean to you? I doubt a sports psychologist can heal him.

I don't take the words to mean "we don't know." I take the words to mean what they say -- the team apparently believes the issue to be "stress" related, which is extremely broad, true, but provides a general description.

Whatever the specifics, it's really Votto's business, and I just hope it is not too serious and he gets better soon. Seems like a great young man and a fabulous ballplayer.

TheNext44
05-30-2009, 02:29 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Jocketty signed Edmonds to platoon with Gomes at 1B while Votto is out.

08 Vs. LHP

.250 .362 .521 .883

Career Vs. LHP

.296 .393 .562 .954

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2009, 02:38 PM
I'm beginning to think the Reds somehow ticked off the baseball Gods. For the first time in a decade the Reds actually have enough talent to stay in the race through the summer, and now their top players are dropping like flies. EdE, Volquez, Votto, Phillips...

mth123
05-30-2009, 02:59 PM
Before we all go jumping off a bridge, maybe we're reading too much into it. Its possible he has an inner ear infection that was aggravated by the plane flights. Its also possible that it could take a long time for that to go away and when the symptoms are under control he could still play.

Maybe Votto is stressed by the back and forth nature of it all and requested a DL stint until he's better. Maybe that is all that "stressed related issues" is referring to.

The Reds, unfortunately, lose their best player in such an important stretch of games and we all hope that Castillo is only up until some one else can be brought in, but this does not necessarily mean that Votto's situation is any different than we thought it was a couple of days ago.

Raisor
05-30-2009, 03:00 PM
Boy, the offense looks bad without Votto.

Without him, there are only two guys with more then 100 PA's that have an OBP over .337 (Dickerson .365 & Hernandez .364).

Games should be faster though.

mth123
05-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Here is a wikipedia page on inner ear infections:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_ear_infection

It mentions a lot of stuff that has been talked about on here.

RANDY IN INDY
05-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Interesting, mth123. Thanks for posting.

GADawg
05-30-2009, 03:21 PM
the dl thing is probably a good thing...the instability of Votto from day to day was really handicapping the team from a roster standpoint. The more curious thing to me was that Brandon Phillips pinch hit for Hanigan last night. I guess there's no way he goes on the DL now especially since he was several days into his 15 days already. Not only that(and I'm sure this was covered in the game thread but..)I love Phillips but I'd rather have seen Hanigan up there in that particular situation with the ab's he had last night.

alloverjr
05-30-2009, 03:23 PM
While a big proponent of DL'ing Votto to get well, this imo is not good. Pulled muscles, broken bones there is typically a definitive time period for them to heal. If this "stress issue" - not to mean frature - is emotional in nature then who knows how long this goes on.

BCubb2003
05-30-2009, 03:27 PM
I wonder if "stress-related issues" is just the nearest applicable box to be checked on the Disabled List form, and isn't really related to any real anxiety on Votto's part. By all accounts, he's been in good humor through all this.

Raisor
05-30-2009, 03:27 PM
While a big proponent of DL'ing Votto to get well, this imo is not good. Pulled muscles, broken bones there is typically a definitive time period for them to heal. If this "stress issue" - not to mean frature - is emotional in nature then who knows how long this goes on.

my stress issues kept me out of work for two months.

mth123
05-30-2009, 03:29 PM
From the Wikipedia article on inner ear infections (labryrinthitis):




Chronic anxiety is a common side effect of labyrinthitis which can produce tremors, heart palpitations, panic attacks, derealization and depression. Often a panic attack is one of the first symptoms to occur as labyrinthitis begins. While dizziness can occur from extreme anxiety, labyrinthitis itself can precipitate a panic disorder.

Makes me wonder if the upper respiritory infection he had brought on the inner ear infection and the inner ear infection brought on the stress disorder.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2009, 03:29 PM
Votto finally placed on disabled list
By Hal McCoy | Saturday, May 30, 2009, 02:52 PM

As I reported in my previous blog what would happen, the Cincinnati Reds announced today that Joey Votto is on the disabled list and the team has recalled Wilkin Castillo from Class AAA Louisville.

After 45 minutes of discussion in manager Dusty Baker’s office Friday after the team’s 3-2 loss to Milwaukee, the Reds announced the move this afternoon

The reason for Votto’s disablement was listed as stress-related issue and not the inner ear infection. Most likely, though, the stress is related to the inner ear infection that knocked Votto out of games three separate times, including after the second inning Friday night.

While suffering the inner ear infection, Votto flew from Cincinnati to Phoenix on May 10 and played on May 11. But the next night he left the game in the fifth inning with dizziness and wooziness. He didn’t play the next game and the team flew to San Diego on May 13. The next day was an off day and Votto played on May 15, then left the game on May 16 after the fourth inning with dizziness and wooziness.

He stayed over in San Diego for tests as the E.W. Scripps Clinic in LaJolla, Calif., then returned to Cincinnati for another battery of tests over the next few days and returned to the lineup a week ago Friday against Cleveland.

He had played every game since, three against Cleveland and three against Houston, then flew to Milwauke Thursday night and started Friday’s game, leaving after the second inning.

Manager Dusty Baker was visibly shaken when he met the media in his office after the 45-minute meeting with Votto, GM Walt Jocketty and trainer Mark Mann.

Castillo begins his second stint with the Reds this season and was on the roster Sunday and Monday but did not play in either game. With Votto out, catcher Ramon Heranandez most likely will handle most duties at first base, with Ryan Hanigan catching and Castillo serving as the emergency back-up catcher.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/05/30/votto_finally_placed_on_disabl.html

GADawg
05-30-2009, 03:33 PM
this is a very good time for Ryan Hanigan to make a statement...if he hasn't already that is. The guy looks great at the plate right now and keeps looking better all the time and is as good defensively as advertised.

alloverjr
05-30-2009, 03:39 PM
Votto finally placed on disabled list
By Hal McCoy | Saturday, May 30, 2009, 02:52 PM


Manager Dusty Baker was visibly shaken when he met the media in his office after the 45-minute meeting with Votto, GM Walt Jocketty and trainer Mark Mann.


http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/05/30/votto_finally_placed_on_disabl.html

I was about to type that maybe we, or at least I, was jumping to conclusions. But upon seeing this, probably not. I think the organiztion is finding out that this has the potential to drag on for a quite unknown period of time.

Good luck Joey.

top6
05-30-2009, 03:42 PM
I'll just assume there's something wrong with him they're not saying. Because if he's really missing games because he's stressed out about something, that's pretty weak.

Edit: And the comment that Dusty was "visibly shaken" suggests there is something they're not saying. Ugh, this is terrible. I'd rather he'd just be someone who can't handle pressure than have something seriously wrong. Hope he gets better.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2009, 03:44 PM
Time to operate on the assumption that he might not play again this season. Move forward accordingly. Time for a blockbuster.

The fans deserve the effort (read: money) to pick up an offensive player to fill the gap. See where the White Sox are in a month and resume negotiations for Dye.

Sea Ray
05-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I don't take the words to mean "we don't know." I take the words to mean what they say -- the team apparently believes the issue to be "stress" related, which is extremely broad, true, but provides a general description.

Whatever the specifics, it's really Votto's business, and I just hope it is not too serious and he gets better soon. Seems like a great young man and a fabulous ballplayer.

We all know it's a balance/dizziness issue. It's more that than stress although I think Mth123's assessment of it is more accurate.

I think he's stressed that they haven't come up with a diagnosis for his ailment.

I also wouldn't say it's not any of our business. He's a professional ballplayer who plays for our favorite team. We have a rooting interest in his health.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2009, 04:03 PM
The rest of the year? You are making this sound like the Lou Gehrigh story.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2009, 04:09 PM
The rest of the year? You are making this sound like the Lou Gehrigh story.

I don't think he's going to die. But I don't know, when a MLB manager seems visibly shaken up by a player's condition, that's definitely not good. I guarantee you the FO's wagons are circling as we speak.

Deepred05
05-30-2009, 04:12 PM
I don't think he's going to die. But I don't know, when a MLB manager seems visibly shaken up by a player's condition, that's definitely not good. I guarantee you the FO's wagons are circling as we speak.

This has the makings of social anxiety, panic attacks...ala Zac Grienke, Dontrelle Willis, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he is done for the year.

dfs
05-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Boy, the offense looks bad without Votto.

And Phillips and Edwin. It's getting pretty thin at the top of the order.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Khalil Greene was just put on the DL for anxiety. MLB is not fun and games.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2009, 04:34 PM
It's getting pretty thin.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Maybe he has Lyme disease?

reds44
05-30-2009, 04:40 PM
This has the makings of social anxiety, panic attacks...ala Zac Grienke, Dontrelle Willis, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he is done for the year.
I don't think it's that serious because Votto's production never took a dip, if anything he's played like a champ through all of this. Something clearly is not right with Votto, and DLing him was definatley the right move. This sounds like a scary situation, and Votto's future is too important to this organization to mess around with. Give him as much time as he needs.

I think Edwin will be back before Votto, so the Reds need to tred water until they can get Edwin back. Once they get EE back they can shift Rosales over to 1B and bring back some sort of normalcy to the lineup.

Having Nix/Gomes and Ramon Hernandez at two of your most important offensive positions just is bad though.

KYRedsFan
05-30-2009, 04:46 PM
Regardless of the etiology, this sucks for Reds fans.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2009, 04:46 PM
How is having Rosales at 1B better than having Ramon? Rosales is showing he is a decent bench player. Hernandez has shown to me he can handle the bat better than anyone other than Votto.

Mario-Rijo
05-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Manager Dusty Baker was visibly shaken when he met the media in his office after the 45-minute meeting with Votto, GM Walt Jocketty and trainer Mark Mann.

Perhaps he was shaken because he, Walt & Mann had to convince Joey to go on the DL and Joey was vehemently opposed. 45 minutes doesn't sound like everyone in the room was on the same page. My guess is there was a bit of a spirited debate about it. Joey also had nothing to say upon leaving the room, maybe he wasn't happy with the decision. Just guessing but I don't know that I would read too far into this being some medical disaster. Everything that's been said on the subject and things that I have read seem to suggest you need time, rest and antibiotics to get over and Votto probably hasn't gotten the kind of rest he needs.

Ltlabner
05-30-2009, 04:55 PM
Maybe having all your offensive eggs in once basket isn't such a good idea after all.

Hopefully Joey's issues are such they don't effect his long term quality of life and income earning abilities. Secondarily, hopefully he can contribute to the team on a regular basis well into the future.

RedsManRick
05-30-2009, 05:01 PM
I'd be shaken too if my everyday lineup contained no hitters with a career OPS north of .800.

In all seriousness, I'm sure Votto is quite concerned about his own health and generally frustrated by the situation. Not a fun scenario for anybody.

westofyou
05-30-2009, 05:02 PM
This has the makings of social anxiety, panic attacks...ala Zac Grienke, Dontrelle Willis, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he is done for the year.

Or career... It brought down Tony Horton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Horton_(baseball)


1970 was a curious season for Horton. He batted .269 with 17 home runs and 59 RBIs in a season full of ups and downs. On May 24 of that year in the second game of a doubleheader, he hit three home runs in an 8-7 loss to the New York Yankees; he reportedly was upset about not hitting a fourth. Exactly one month later against the Yankees, in the first game of another doubleheader, Horton fouled off a “folly floater” from Steve Hamilton. Horton asked for another "Folly Floater," and Hamilton again threw one, and again Horton popped it into foul territory behind home plate—this time into Thurman Munson's mitt for an out. An embarrassed Horton crawled back into the dugout.



On July 2, Horton hit for the cycle in a 10-9 victory over the Baltimore Orioles. The end of Horton's playing career came unexpectedly on August 28, after he took himself out in the fifth inning of the second game of a doubleheader against the California Angels. A batting slump and constant booing from the Indians fans led to such emotional distress that Horton had to be hospitalized for clinical depression. He would receive treatment and recover, but the stress of professional baseball forced him to leave the game prematurely; he had played his last game three months shy of his 26th birthday. His manager, Alvin Dark, in his book When in Doubt, Fire the Manager, would call Horton’s sudden exit “the most sorrowful incident I was ever involved in, in my baseball career.”
In his very short career, Horton batted .268 with 76 home runs and 297 RBIs in 636 games played. His early exit from the game has often been tied to Indian lore with the Curse of Rocky Colavito.

BrooklynRedz
05-30-2009, 05:03 PM
I doubt there is more here than has been released by the club.

I struggle with inner-ear issues and have for years, resulting in crippling motion sickness. It's hard to predict or understand when the nausea/dizziness will hit though fatigue plays a huge role and can most often trigger an episode. For example, I regularly travel for work and if a particular set of meetings are not going well, the stress combined with the fatigue of travel and time differences, can turn a routine elevator ride into a situation where I'm in a full sweat, pale and holding the rail for fear of collapsing in a heap. Now, combine a lingering inner-ear infection with the day-to-day stress of being a major league baseball player and the fatigue related to travel and you've got an unholy brew that feeds on itself.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Baker, Jocketty on the Votto situation
Posted by JohnFay at 5/30/2009 4:56 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The Reds could not say much beyond what the press release said about Joey Votto going on the disabled list.

“Not much,” Dusty Baker said. “He’s dealing with personal issue. He wants us to respect his privacy about it. And he’s dealing with it.”

Said Walt Jocketty: “There’s nothing more to add to it. Joey needs some time away to deal with something that is affecting his ability to play at the level he wants to play with.

“So we gave the time.”

The inner-ear infection has been part of ongoing problem.

“It has been part of it,” Jockey said. “I’ll leave it at that.”

The Reds had a team meeting to inform the players of the situation. They weren’t given details of what Votto is dealing with.

“We told them to stick together,” Baker said, “even more than ever, and whatever it is just support him. This is like a member of family. Right now, he needs support and love . . . Understanding something that they may not even understand.”

The Reds don’t know for certain when Votto will return.

“We’re hoping (it’s 15 days),” Baker said.

He went back to Cincinnati. Obviously, Wilkin Castillo isn’t going to replace his bat. Will the Reds look outside to add help?

“We’re always looking to improve the club,” Jocketty said. “We’re still in that mindset, whether Joey was here or not.

“Part of the reason was brought Castillo back is he’s so versatile. We’re probably going to use our catchers a lot. This gives us protection. We’ll evaluate it, as long with everything else, but we’ll go with what we’ve got.”

For now, Ramon Hernandez and Adam Rosales will play first. Jonny Gomes played there some during spring training. But he did not play there at all for Louisville.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a7bf5abab-9c38-417f-9c35-6b39a013829c&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

BTW, what good is versatility when you can barely OPS .500 in Triple-A?

nate
05-30-2009, 05:31 PM
That doesn't sound good.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Reds say Votto just needs time away
By Hal McCoy | Saturday, May 30, 2009, 05:14 PM

The mystery continues and mum’s the word on Joey Votto.

Manager Dusty Baker called a pre-game meeting Saturday and cleared the clubhouse to address the Votto issue.

Even the players were not told exactly what the stress-related issue is with Votto that placed him on the disabled list, although Baker told the writers that the inner ear infection was the start of it.

Asked what he could tell us about Votto, Baker said, “Not much. He’s just dealing with a personal issue. He wants us to respect his privacy about that. And he’s dealing with it, trying to deal with it.”

Baker said it doesn’t involve his inner ear infection, “But it started with that.” Votto went back to Cincinnati and when asked if he’ll be back after the 15 days, Baker said, “We hope so. We don’t know.”

Votto went on the bereavement list last August when his father died.

Of the team meeting, Baker said, “They weren’t informed about what’s wrong with Joey. They were just told we have to stick together more than ever. And whatever it is, we have to support him. It’s like a member of your family. Right now he needs support and love. They have to try to understand something that they may not understand.”

Said General Manager Walt Jocketty, “It’s basically something that Joey needs some time to get away and deal with and we gave him that time. It’s not a big deal, but it is something that was affecting his ability to play at the level he wants to play at. So we gave him a little time off.”

Jocketty added, “Yeah, the inner ear thing has been part of that. That’s part of it and we’ll leave it at that.”

“Our guys have been very resilient and they’ll just have to be more resiliant,” said Baker.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

alloverjr
05-30-2009, 05:39 PM
“Not much,” Dusty Baker said. “He’s dealing with personal issue. He wants us to respect his privacy about it. And he’s dealing with it.”

Said Walt Jocketty: “There’s nothing more to add to it. Joey needs some time away to deal with something that is affecting his ability to play at the level he wants to play with.

“So we gave the time.”

The inner-ear infection has been part of ongoing problem.

“It has been part of it,” Jockey said. “I’ll leave it at that.”


http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a7bf5abab-9c38-417f-9c35-6b39a013829c&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com



Should I read this as he pulled himself out of a game(s) because of personal issues? yikes.

fisch11
05-30-2009, 05:39 PM
“It has been part of it,” Jockey said. “I’ll leave it at that.”



There is obviously something more than just the inner-ear situation that is keeping him off the field. The 45 minute meeting after the ballgame was more than just talking about the inner-ear infection and if they should DL him. I respect Joey's privacy and don't wish to dig into his personal life. I just hope that whatever it is that is troubling him, along with his infection, is resolved by this time off.

nate
05-30-2009, 05:42 PM
My neighbor is a booking agent and one of his top artists has a bad problem with anxiety. The poor guy pukes his guts out just before he goes on stage. It's not drugs or booze, it's because this guy has spent his whole life trying to get "here" and now that he's "here," he's worried that one screw up, slip up, bad performance, etc could take all of the success away.

Once the guy gets on stage, no problem! It's just the moments before seriously cripple him.

If Votto has something like that and the ear thing is keeping him from performing, I can imagine how debilitating that must be.

lollipopcurve
05-30-2009, 05:43 PM
Wish him the best. Sounds like the health questions have interacted with some sort of emotional overload. Like Jocketty said, he needs some time away to decompress. May take a while, but I think he'll be OK.

Ron Madden
05-30-2009, 05:45 PM
I hope everything works out well for Joey.

RedsManRick
05-30-2009, 05:46 PM
Big league life isn't easy + loss of father + troubling medical condition + 25 years old = rough time for a guy. I hope the time away helps. We saw with Greinke that these things can take awhile.

Mario-Rijo
05-30-2009, 05:50 PM
Good luck Joey, get well soon!

dfs
05-30-2009, 05:56 PM
How is having Rosales at 1B better than having Ramon? Rosales is showing he is a decent bench player. Hernandez has shown to me he can handle the bat better than anyone other than Votto.
....Ramon could handle the throws at first, but he's a lot like a statue. Unless it was hit right at him, it was through.

He's really not playing Gomes at first? That seems odd to me.

traderumor
05-30-2009, 06:00 PM
Connor Jackson is out of favor in Arizona. Was on the DL for "flu-like symptoms" last I saw. Give the ole "change of scenery" a try.

Caveat Emperor
05-30-2009, 06:13 PM
Without Votto, this team doesn't have enough offense to compete over the long haul.

I wonder how Brandon Phillips feels -- taping up a fractured finger and trying to play through his injury and pain while Votto gets sent to the 15-day DL for what's being described as no physical ailment at all.

boognish
05-30-2009, 06:31 PM
Connor Jackson is out of favor in Arizona. Was on the DL for "flu-like symptoms" last I saw. Give the ole "change of scenery" a try.

Jackson was (eventually) diagnosed with Valley Fever; the rest of his season is in doubt. It is a fungal infection which saps physical strength.

http://www.dhpe.org/infect/valley.html

traderumor
05-30-2009, 06:37 PM
Jackson was (eventually) diagnosed with Valley Fever; the rest of his season is in doubt. It is a fungal infection which saps physical strength.

http://www.dhpe.org/infect/valley.html
Is that anything like having the Boogie Fever?

remdog
05-30-2009, 06:42 PM
BTW, what good is versatility when you can barely OPS .500 in Triple-A?


It's not about an OPS; it's about the ability to move people around if you want/need to.

I doubt that Wilken will be seeing much time AB but, for now, the Reds have a problem at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. They are obviously going to use Hernandez some at first and Hannigan at C. If they need to make late inning replacements/switches then Dusty needs to have someone to cover C in an emergency.

If you play Rosales at 1st or 3rd and JHJ at second, you need someone that can step in there in an emergency if one of them goes down. He can also play some OF and, of course, is a switch hitter.

This is all about flexibility, not about a bat. Although, Castillo OPS'ed .616 in his brief time with the Reds last year. That's not to say that he'll bring fear to any pitcher if he heads for the plate with a bat in hand but it's actually better than the numbers he's put up so far this year in L'ville.

I think Castillo is here until the Reds decide what's up with Joey and how they are going to adjust to whatever that availability is.

Rem

marcshoe
05-30-2009, 06:44 PM
Time to operate on the assumption that he might not play again this season. Move forward accordingly. Time for a blockbuster.

The fans deserve the effort (read: money) to pick up an offensive player to fill the gap. See where the White Sox are in a month and resume negotiations for Dye.

Dye's been on my mind a lot lately, and not only because I have tickets for the first game of the White Sox series. What's going on with Votto should be the impetus for Walt doing something major, though.

fearofpopvol1
05-30-2009, 06:50 PM
In the immediate future, Phillips has to get healthy and play and Bruce is going to need to step up and get "luckier" or start hitting more. Edwin's offense is needed too. Hernandez cannot carry this offense.

Raisor
05-30-2009, 06:58 PM
It is a fungal infection which saps physical strength.



eeewwwww

Deepred05
05-30-2009, 07:11 PM
Without Votto, this team doesn't have enough offense to compete over the long haul.

I wonder how Brandon Phillips feels -- taping up a fractured finger and trying to play through his injury and pain while Votto gets sent to the 15-day DL for what's being described as no physical ailment at all.

Not to mention how the rest of the team feels.

Raisor
05-30-2009, 07:15 PM
My neighbor is a booking agent and one of his top artists has a bad problem with anxiety. The poor guy pukes his guts out just before he goes on stage. It's not drugs or booze, it's because this guy has spent his whole life trying to get "here" and now that he's "here," he's worried that one screw up, slip up, bad performance, etc could take all of the success away.

.

This is exactly what is wrong with me. If Votto is suffering from this, I hope he gets help like I did.

RFS62
05-30-2009, 07:36 PM
We need to put this in perspective. I don't give a rat's ass about his on field performance compared to his health and well being.

Can you imagine how much pain he must be in to have to take these measures? Playing the greatest baseball of his life and now having to walk away from it for a while?

He seems like a fine young man. Nothing comes before helping him deal with this, with NO JUDGMENT.

HokieRed
05-30-2009, 07:51 PM
We need to put this in perspective. I don't give a rat's ass about his on field performance compared to his health and well being.

Can you imagine how much pain he must be in to have to take these measures? Playing the greatest baseball of his life and now having to walk away from it for a while?

He seems like a fine young man. Nothing comes before helping him deal with this, with NO JUDGMENT.


Agree 100%. Only thing that matters is that Joey get well. All the best, Joey, hope to see you back soon!

Big Klu
05-30-2009, 07:52 PM
BTW, what good is versatility when you can barely OPS .500 in Triple-A?

Castillo allows Baker to use Hanigan more than he normally would. He also provides added depth in the INF and OF. Castillo is the last man on the bench, but his presence lets Dusty move other versatile players (like Hairston, Hernandez, and Rosales) into more prominent roles.



Is that anything like having the Boogie Fever?

I once had the Rockin' Pneumonia. :cool:

BCubb2003
05-30-2009, 07:58 PM
I can't imagine anyone is thinking that Votto is malingering about this. I also can't judge whether the team's vague description of stress means that it really is on another level beyond an ear infection, or whether that's a product of the rules about releasing medical information.

Considering how some great careers were stopped by mysterious medical problems, we just have to wait and hope for the best for him.

remdog
05-30-2009, 08:52 PM
Also, if you recall, when Joey's father died last year he was very private about it. Threfore, I don't find his silence to be out of character.

Rem

HeatherC1212
05-30-2009, 09:00 PM
I'm so sad that Joey is going through such a hard time right now and I hope this time away helps him work through all the issues. :( He's such a good guy and I hate that he's hurting right now. He's basically been carrying this team on his back offensively for a good chunk of the season and that on top of being sick, on top of the team hanging in there in the NL Central, has to be HUGE pressure on a guy who's really only in his second full season in the big leagues. I can't imagine having that much pressure on me all the time and I imagine his emotions are all over the place right now. :eek:


Also, if you recall, when Joey's father died last year he was very private about it. Threfore, I don't find his silence to be out of character.

I don't either. He's such a private guy about things away from baseball that I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear anything more about this even after he's back from the DL stint. Something else that occured to me is the fact that Father's Day is in a couple of weeks and this will be his first one he has to experience without his dad. That on top of everything else has to be pretty tough for a young guy and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that this has something to do with it too. (((Joey))) :(

VR
05-30-2009, 09:11 PM
.

Blitz Dorsey
05-30-2009, 11:39 PM
At least the great Kremchek is on the case.

Wait... what?

Blitz Dorsey
05-30-2009, 11:40 PM
This is exactly what is wrong with me. If Votto is suffering from this, I hope he gets help like I did.

Sounds like Joey might need some Xanex? I know that works wonders for me.

TheNext44
05-30-2009, 11:59 PM
Sounds like Joey might need some Xanex? I know that works wonders for me.

I use ativan, amazing stuff. Seriously, when I don't have it, I actually get panic attacks, worrying that I might have a panic attack without access to it.

Just to give a first hand account of panic attacks, if that is what Votto is suffering from...

I had many friends who had them, and I chuckled at them when they talked about how horrible they were, until I started getting them.

The biggest problem with getting a panic attack is that you feel so helpless. Usually when I have any pain or injury, I can use mind over matter to get through it. But with a panic attack, I couldn't use my mind. I temporarily, literally lost my mind.

I couldn't focus on anything, as my mind whirled a million miles a second, completely out of control. I couldn't talk to anyone, read, watch TV, listen to music, sleep or do anything except lie in bed waiting for it to be over. I actually drove myself to and from the emergency room three times, each time I was there, convincing myself that I didn't need help, only to desperately need it once I got back home.

Anyway, from my experience, panic attacks are the most terrifying experiences that I have ever had, and I once saw Marge Schott kissing Schottzie.

I really wish Joey the best and that he gets the best treatment and time to deal with this the best he can.

LvJ
05-31-2009, 12:18 AM
I think we all forget that baseball players are human, and money doesn't = happiness.

I hope Joey is okay.

cincrazy
05-31-2009, 01:14 AM
Without Votto, this team doesn't have enough offense to compete over the long haul.

I wonder how Brandon Phillips feels -- taping up a fractured finger and trying to play through his injury and pain while Votto gets sent to the 15-day DL for what's being described as no physical ailment at all.

I don't think that's a fair thing to say. I've dealt with mental pain, and I've dealt with physical pain. Give me physical pain every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

SandyD
05-31-2009, 01:37 AM
Actually, the link mth provided to the wikipedia entry on inner ear infection shows it's possible that anxiety can be a side effect in certain cases. And the symptoms can be exacerbated by flying. We don't really know what's going on with Votto, but we really shouldn't read too much into this. Not yet anyway.

Larkin Fan
05-31-2009, 02:27 AM
Without Votto, this team doesn't have enough offense to compete over the long haul.

I wonder how Brandon Phillips feels -- taping up a fractured finger and trying to play through his injury and pain while Votto gets sent to the 15-day DL for what's being described as no physical ailment at all.

Yeah, because if it's not physical pain, it can't possibly be all that bad, right? Give me a break. That is one of the most unempathetic and judgemental things I've ever read on this board. Comments like this make it even more obvious why so many people struggling with emotional pain never seek help, simply because of the negative stigma that's cast upon those that admit that something is wrong and that they need to deal with it.

And I pretty much guarantee you that if any of you had just experienced an inner ear infection with a severe vestibular disturbance, you'd all feel pretty stressed about going back onto the field again too for fear that it may just happen again when a ball flies off a bat at 150 or so MPH and you're too disoriented to do anything to stop it from nailing you.

Matt700wlw
05-31-2009, 02:42 AM
The important thing for Votto is his health....he would add his job as a baseball player, but that's secondary.

I feel bad for the guy...all he wants to do is play ball. I can't imagine he'd rather be anywhere else than in the 3 slot on a daily basis...





A good team works through this...

Razor Shines
05-31-2009, 03:06 AM
I don't think that's a fair thing to say. I've dealt with mental pain, and I've dealt with physical pain. Give me physical pain every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


I'll send someone over.

Caveat Emperor
05-31-2009, 04:11 AM
Yeah, because if it's not physical pain, it can't possibly be all that bad, right? Give me a break. That is one of the most unempathetic and judgemental things I've ever read on this board. Comments like this make it even more obvious why so many people struggling with emotional pain never seek help, simply because of the negative stigma that's cast upon those that admit that something is wrong and that they need to deal with it.

Then come out and say what the issue is. That was mainly my point there. Even if you don't say it publicly, at least tell the team what Votto is going through. There are 24 guys in the clubhouse busting it, some playing hurt -- if Votto's condition is serious, whatever that is, make it known. Don't just say "we're giving him time."

These vagaries only lend themselves to speculation in both directions, from the "his career is over" at one extreme and the "he's a headcase" on the other. It strikes me as unfair to Joey.

reds44
05-31-2009, 04:28 AM
Then come out and say what the issue is. That was mainly my point there. Even if you don't say it publicly, at least tell the team what Votto is going through. There are 24 guys in the clubhouse busting it, some playing hurt -- if Votto's condition is serious, whatever that is, make it known. Don't just say "we're giving him time."

These vagaries only lend themselves to speculation in both directions, from the "his career is over" at one extreme and the "he's a headcase" on the other. It strikes me as unfair to Joey.
If Joey wanted his exact condition released, it would be very easy for him to do so. It's really not the "24 guys in the clubhouse," the media, or the fans business to be quite honest.

Mental and physical issues are completely different.

BCubb2003
05-31-2009, 08:27 AM
I figure the players have as good a handle as anyone on the situation. They know what he's meant to the team, they've seen him try to play anyway, he's been on the field when this has happened. It's not like Votto went home and keeps telling everybody, "I'm just not 100 percent yet." I'll bet the players are more concerned for him than anyone.

cincrazy
05-31-2009, 09:33 AM
Then come out and say what the issue is. That was mainly my point there. Even if you don't say it publicly, at least tell the team what Votto is going through. There are 24 guys in the clubhouse busting it, some playing hurt -- if Votto's condition is serious, whatever that is, make it known. Don't just say "we're giving him time."

These vagaries only lend themselves to speculation in both directions, from the "his career is over" at one extreme and the "he's a headcase" on the other. It strikes me as unfair to Joey.

I see your point, but I think Votto has enough credibility in that clubhouse to where the guys understand. A former coworker of mine, a GREAT guy and a friend, went through a similar situation. He was out of work for nine months. We were never told anything other than he was dealing with personal issues, but that's all we needed. Sometimes people just need their space. I would imagine there are several factors that play into this stress/anxiety thing, and I hope Joey can get them resolved, for his own sake, not for the team.

cincrazy
05-31-2009, 09:33 AM
I'll send someone over.

You know Tonya Harding's ex?

Sea Ray
05-31-2009, 11:21 AM
It seems like it's Redszone that's having the panic attacks.

Give him 15 days and then let's evaluate where we are before we start all this Chicken Little non sense.

westofyou
05-31-2009, 11:25 AM
Then come out and say what the issue is. That was mainly my point there. Even if you don't say it publicly, at least tell the team what Votto is going through. There are 24 guys in the clubhouse busting it, some playing hurt -- if Votto's condition is serious, whatever that is, make it known. Don't just say "we're giving him time."

These vagaries only lend themselves to speculation in both directions, from the "his career is over" at one extreme and the "he's a headcase" on the other. It strikes me as unfair to Joey.

It's non of our business, he plays baseball, he's not part of your family, you're a fan and he owes you and I nothing beyond that.

remdog
05-31-2009, 12:25 PM
It seems like it's Redszone that's having the panic attacks.

Give him 15 days and then let's evaluate where we are before we start all this Chicken Little non sense.

I agree with that. There seems to be a lot of 'doctors' on this site that are practicing medicine without ever seeing the patient.

Rem

remdog
05-31-2009, 12:26 PM
It's non of our business, he plays baseball, he's not part of your family, you're a fan and he owes you and I nothing beyond that.


And, I agree with that as well.

Rem

MWM
05-31-2009, 12:49 PM
Then come out and say what the issue is. That was mainly my point there. Even if you don't say it publicly, at least tell the team what Votto is going through. There are 24 guys in the clubhouse busting it, some playing hurt -- if Votto's condition is serious, whatever that is, make it known. Don't just say "we're giving him time."

These vagaries only lend themselves to speculation in both directions, from the "his career is over" at one extreme and the "he's a headcase" on the other. It strikes me as unfair to Joey.


You're not helping yourself here. As woy said, it's no one's business and the fact that others might be speculating really means nothing. One thing I've learned in my own life is you cannot being to understand what certain things are like until you've gone through it yourself. Like RFS62 already said, the baseball part of this really doesn't matter either. So the 24 other guys in the clubhouse can go take a flying leap if they have a problem with what's going on or not knowing. It's just baseball. That's it.

I'll echo what Larkin Fan said, it's this type of stuff that makes it way more difficult than it needs to be in dealing with non-physical ailments. And it's usually coming from people who know next to nothing about what causes it. And this is also why the better of two bad options is sometimes having people speculate rather than telling them what it wactually is. There's a good possibility that doing exactly what you say and letting it be known what it is would lead to many people belittling it and drawing all kinds of conclusions about his character and implying it's "fake" or not a "real" problem.

wheels
05-31-2009, 12:51 PM
I'll tell you, a few years ago my mother had the exact same thing happen to her.

It started with a flu type thing, then developed into an inner ear problem. She was an absolute mess, and the hardest part was the games it played with her head. To her, the entire world was collapsing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Joey's going through the same thing.

RANDY IN INDY
05-31-2009, 12:52 PM
One thing I've learned in my own life is you cannot being to understand what certain things are like until you've gone through it yourself.

Now there's a quote that a lot of "Know Everythings" could learn something from. I'm with you MWM.:thumbup::beerme:

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 12:52 PM
Personally, I think the righteous indignation against Caveat's pretty unwarranted.

I agree that anxiety is no laughing matter and isn't really anyone's business, but I think his question about how the team might feel is a legitimate one. Maybe unanswerable, but legitimate. And yeah, I think the way the team's handling it is stupid. If it's anxiety, or emotionally related, say it--don't shelter it and be all hush-hush about it, like it's something to be embarrassed about. It isn't.

nate
05-31-2009, 01:02 PM
I'd guess that the team already has a pretty good idea what's bothering him.

At least, I'd wager the team has a much better idea about it than we do.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 01:06 PM
I'd guess that the team already has a pretty good idea what's bothering him.

At least, I'd wager the team has a much better idea about it than we do.

You're probably right, but the quotes from Jocketty/Baker about "family," blah, blah--"give him space" suggest a kind of tamp-down of talk amongst folks. Well, folks talk, and the right message is usually honesty.

MWM
05-31-2009, 01:09 PM
I agree that anxiety is no laughing matter and isn't really anyone's business,

Yet, you advocate telling others about it? Seems a contradiction to me.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 01:14 PM
Yet, you advocate telling others about it? Seems a contradiction to me.

No, not really. In the same way I don't care how somebody breaks a bone (punching a wall, a cooler), but I do care that the bone is broken. I don't care about the details of Joey's anxiety or why he has anxiety (he's afraid of spiders, he didn't get enough love from his mama, he has lingering issues with his inner ear that have brought on some anxiety reaction), but why go all cryptkeeper about it--just say what the problem is and move on.

Ltlabner
05-31-2009, 01:16 PM
...but why go all cryptkeeper about it...

Because it's none of your business?

They are under no obligation to release any information to fulfill peoples pervers'e need to know everything. Not to mention Joey himself may not want the world to know his business...so the team is obliging by being vague.

lollipopcurve
05-31-2009, 01:19 PM
It doesn't take much to deduce what's generally up with Votto. Some sort of anxiety/panic turbulence associated with his inner ear problem. Could be a big problem, could be a small one -- wide range of possible outcomes, depending on his particular case. Clamoring for more details seems me to be either overly obsessive (we're all obsessive to a certain degree, or we wouldn't be on this board, probably) or gratuitous potshotting at the franchise.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 01:20 PM
Because it's none of your business?

HIPAA says so; you're right. From a legal standpoint, this is absolutely true.

But what's legal and what the team says to its fans and to the rest of the team are two different things. I think they handled it poorly and only heaped on more reason to speculate.

Mostly I think the indignation toward Caveat is bogus.

Big Klu
05-31-2009, 01:20 PM
Your right to know supercedes your right to exist.

MWM
05-31-2009, 01:25 PM
just say what the problem is and move on.

Well, what if it's something that's very highly misunderstood by the general public (or the Cincinnati fanbase)? And what if that misunderstanding led to all kinds of ignorant and very public lashings by people who think they know, but really don't? And those comments implied he was just "weak-minded" or a "basket case"? And then they bring up another player who's playing through a *real* injury and how he's letting the team down.

These are all much more realistic scenarios than simply bringing it out in the open and it being understood.

Fact is, we don't know enough what's going on to even assess whether it is something that could be brough out into the open without judgment. And "anxiety" or "stress" are such generic terms that they mean nothing, really. They're symptoms, not diagnoses; and they can be caused by scores of different things that few people have even a cursory understanding of. But do you think that would stop them from publicly pretending to know how he *should* be handling it? Not a chance. Some Cincinnati media guy would go to wikipedia, read a couple of paragraphs, and then go on air or print offering up opinions about how it *should* affect him.

The possibility that it would make things worse is much stronger than making it better. Team? Fans? Speculation? Who the hell cares! It's baseball.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 01:28 PM
Well, what if it's something that's very highly misunderstood by the general public (or the Cincinnati fanbase)? And what if that misunderstanding led to all kinds of ignorant and very public lashings by people who think they know, but really don't? And those comments implied he was just "weak-minded" or a "basket case"? And then they bring up another player who's playing through a *real* injury and how he's letting the team down.

These are all much more realistic scenarios than simply bringing it out in the open and it being understood.

Fact is, we don't know enough what's going on to even assess whether it is something that could be brough out into the open without judgment. And "anxiety" or "stress" are such generic terms that they mean nothing, really. They're symptoms, not diagnoses; and they can be caused by scores of different things that few people have even a cursory understanding of. But do you think that would stop them from publicly pretending to know how he *should* be handling it? Not a chance. Some Cincinnati media guy would go to wikipedia, read a couple of paragraphs, and then go on air or print offering up opinions about how it *should* affect him.

The possibility that it would make things worse is much stronger than making it better.

Trust me, speculation is almost always worse than reality.

MWM
05-31-2009, 01:33 PM
Trust me, speculation is almost always worse than reality.

Worse in what regard? And I completely disagree with that statement to begin with. Let them speculate. There's just as much likelihood that ignorance would be the order of the day if the Cincinnati media and fanbase were given more details of the diagnosis.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 01:36 PM
Worse in what regard? And I completely disagree with that statement to begin with. Let them speculate. There's just as much likelihood that ignorance would be the order of the day if the Cincinnati media and fanbase were given more details of the diagnosis.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. We're coming to this issue from completely different worldviews.

MWM
05-31-2009, 01:40 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. We're coming to this issue from completely different worldviews.

Maybe maybe not. Not sure our "worldviews" matter here. Ironically, 12 months ago I might have even agreed with you here.

RFS62
05-31-2009, 01:50 PM
I'd love to be able to say I'm surprised at the variety of reactions we're seeing here.

But I'm not.

Which is probably the best reason that it's none of our business. Who on earth would want to subject himself to such speculation?

The people who understand these issues are vociferous in their outrage at the folks who think he should just "suck it up" and "try harder", or "man up". Anyone who thinks that is an option is woefully ignorant on this issue.

I can't think of a single thing that would be worse to say than he should just "try harder". If you don't understand that, you'll never, ever get it.

westofyou
05-31-2009, 01:56 PM
Putting on a Reds uniform doesn't make one a member of your family, it just means they play on a team you root for. Expecting to be privy to the actual cause and effect is not a worldview issue, it's a fantasy issue. The fantasy is that you believe that you deserve more because you invest time in a baseball team.

MWM
05-31-2009, 02:02 PM
I'd love to be able to say I'm surprised at the variety of reactions we're seeing here.

But I'm not.

Which is probably the best reason that it's none of our business. Who on earth would want to subject himself to such speculation?

The people who understand these issues are vociferous in their outrage at the folks who think he should just "suck it up" and "try harder", or "man up". Anyone who thinks that is an option is woefully ignorant on this issue.

I can't think of a single thing that would be worse to say than he should just "try harder". If you don't understand that, you'll never, ever get it.

Yep, and that was my point. Full disclosure would not stop speculation. It would just change what was being speculated about.

RANDY IN INDY
05-31-2009, 02:08 PM
Yep, and that was my point. Full disclosure would not stop speculation. It would just change what was being speculated about.

Yep.

VR
05-31-2009, 02:59 PM
It's got to be tough coming to the realization that you are Canadian.

RFS62
05-31-2009, 03:01 PM
It's got to be tough coming to the realization that you are Canadian.


That would certainly explain it.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 03:30 PM
I'd love to be able to say I'm surprised at the variety of reactions we're seeing here.

But I'm not.

Which is probably the best reason that it's none of our business. Who on earth would want to subject himself to such speculation?

The people who understand these issues are vociferous in their outrage at the folks who think he should just "suck it up" and "try harder", or "man up". Anyone who thinks that is an option is woefully ignorant on this issue.

I can't think of a single thing that would be worse to say than he should just "try harder". If you don't understand that, you'll never, ever get it.

If you think my opinion is that he "should suck it up," you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

And I seriously doubt that's Caveat's take either.

My take has nothing to do with Votto's problems--as far as I'm concerned he can go on the DL if he hasn't farted in two weeks, if he'd like. My take has to do with smartly controlling the message, which the team has failed to do. Maybe I'm misreading Caveat's take on it--and maybe his take goes deeper than mine as far as that goes--but that's how I read his argument. What I *do* know is that the response aimed at Caveat was frankly more than a little self-righteous.

MWM
05-31-2009, 04:28 PM
What I think you're missing here, FCB, is that whether or not the team's, or the the organization's message should have been controlled really isn't relevant at all. Sure, maybe it would be better for the team or the Red's to have a more forthright message, but if that's not what is best for Joey and whatever is going on with him, then it doesn't matter what's best for the Reds. It's a Joey Votto question first. What's in the Reds' best interest is secondary.

And since you bring up HIPPA, even if the Reds did feel like coming forward with the full truth was in their best interest, they're probably not allowed to do so without Joey's permission.

And I think what people were responding to was the comparison being drawn between a hand injury and something like Votto's issue, and how that must make Brandon feel.

Falls City Beer
05-31-2009, 04:40 PM
And I think what people were responding to was the comparison being drawn between a hand injury and something like Votto's issue, and how that must make Brandon feel.

In a thread about not jumping to conclusions, I'm not going to insult a long-term poster and solid bro when all the facts and intentions aren't accounted for. I'm going to give the guy a wider berth than that.

MWM
05-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Either way, points are out on the table, and I think it's been debated enough at this point. Admittedly, this type of issue is a little personal to me. While I've not personally experienced what Votto is going through, my life experiences have taught me that non-physical ailments can be very misunderstood and much more impactful than a broken bone or pulled muscle. And until one has experienced something themself, it's impossible to understand the magnitude of such things. And finally, and most importantly, misconceptions are very prevalent when it comes to the type of situation Votto is going through, and assuming there's going to to empathy and understanding is expecting too much.

harangatang
05-31-2009, 06:07 PM
The first thing I thought of when I heard about this was Zack Grienke leaving the Royals in 2006 from social anxiety disorder and depression. I have no idea what is going on with Votto, but just the first thing that came to mind. I wish him the best and hope he does well in a Reds uniform whenever his problems are solved.

Deepred05
06-01-2009, 01:23 AM
And I think what people were responding to was the comparison being drawn between a hand injury and something like Votto's issue, and how that must make Brandon feel.

No, I would say that people were responding to how it made THEM feel. How does something like this make Brandon, and for that matter the rest of the team feel? How about Dusty, who played when baseball didn't even have a DL. I think it is a fair question to wonder what effect this could have on the clubhouse. I don't recall much empathy in the locker room in my playing days, (admittedly many years ago), but for a sport that still has never had an active player admit to being gay, has it changed that much?

westofyou
06-01-2009, 01:39 AM
How about Dusty, who played when baseball didn't even have a DL.


The DL is not a new addition to MLB, it was around in Dusty's era and before.

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 12:28 PM
Without Votto, Reds are stressed
By Paul Daugherty • pdaugherty@enquirer.com • May 31, 2009

The announcement Saturday that the Reds had put Joey Votto on the disabled list for stress-related issues could not have been more shocking if it had been delivered by Stephen King with a raven on his shoulder.

Publicly, Joey Votto is James Bond in the Aston Martin. Head level enough to putt on. Diplomat’s demeanor, in control of self and situations. Votto is 25 going on elder statesman.

Sunday’s game screamed for him. Most games do. The 2009 Reds are young, learning, willing and needful of everyday leadership, to say nothing of big hits.

In losing its third straight in Milwaukee Sunday, 5-2, Cincinnati left 11 runners on base and struck out three times in the 9th inning. Votto is hitting .432 with runners in scoring position. Last week, in his first full game back from what was termed an inner-ear infection, he hit two homers. Clutch punch, defined.

I’m always amazed at whatever it is beyond skill that allows a 16-year-old girl to win an Olympic gold medal in gymnastics, or a Tom Brady to deliver in the last minute of a Super Bowl. Grace, courage, poise, presence. That ill-defined, slippery trait that all of us want, whether we play games or not.

Joey Votto has it. Also, apparently, the stress that can be its closest companion.

We emphasize the apparently, because we don’t know. We are all amateur Freuds here. Dusty Baker knows. Walt Jocketty knows. Likely, so does Reds trainer Mark Mann and the Big Man. The rest of us, even those close to the situation, are striking matches in the dark.

Big stress exists in baseball, a game that gnaws at you every day for six months. Already this year, two players have been DL’ed for anxiety reasons. Detroit paid Dontrelle Willis $29 million for three years before last season. As of late March, Willis couldn’t throw strikes. The Tigers put him on the disabled list with an anxiety disorder. Since his return, Willis is 1-3, with a 5.56 ERA.

On Friday, the St. Louis Cardinals put their shortstop Khalil Greene on the DL for the same reason. Greene said then, “I’ve always taken the game pretty seriously and wanted to perform well. As far as how much I internalized the feelings (and) how deep they go to the core of a person, for me it’s pretty deep.”

Can you be too conscientious? Pressure, a college basketball coach once told me, is good. Pressure is focus and adrenaline and rising up to what is required. Where is the line, though? When does it stop pushing, and begin squeezing?

A second-year player who 13 months ago shared his position with Scott Hatteberg, a player who’s out of baseball now, suddenly has to grow Triple-X shoulders for the new load he’s carrying. Shoulders can ache. Even big ones.

The Reds are diminished without Votto. First-base is their only position without a good fallback plan. If Willy Taveras goes out, Chris Dickerson can play center. If the Reds lose Phillips, they plug in Jerry Hairston Jr. They’ve survived the losses of Edwin Encarnacion and Alex Gonzalez. It is a plucky team.

They won’t do the same without Votto, at least not for long. Ramon Hernandez has played very well at first, but he’s needed more behind the plate, handling kid pitchers. Votto’s absence hurts the Reds on many levels.

Ironically, maybe the best thing Votto’s mates can do for him is win without him. Send him a get-well card by taking three of four in St. Louis. Show him the show goes on without him, not as polished as before, but respectable nonetheless.

Jay Bruce needs to take up where his friend has left off. Brandon Phillips told me last week that Votto was the “best hitter” on the team, the inference being someone else was the best player overall. That “overall best player” needs to hit in June the way he hit in May.

With Joey Votto in the lineup, the Reds walk the wire between average and good. Without him, they walk the plank.

Votto’s well-being is most important, obviously. That his condition and the team’s fortunes are joined inextricably is not coincidental. Here’s wishing the big shoulders a bigger recovery.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090531/COL03/305310037/1007/SPT04/Without+Votto++Reds+are+stressed

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 02:22 AM
Baker on Votto: ‘I’m not worried about Joey’
Reds skipper says ‘high-pressure world’ of professional sports affects athletes in different ways.

By Hal McCoy
Staff Writer
1:27 AM Tuesday, June 2, 2009

ST. LOUIS — Dusty Baker said he has not talked to Joey Votto since he left the team with stress-related issues Friday and added, "I'm just going to leave him alone for a few days.
 "I'm not worried about Joey. He'll call," Baker added. "He is one of the most respectful players I've had, easily. He's wonderful on and off the field. He's a pro like I'd like to have my son be. A great example."

Baker laughed and said Votto is his 10-year-old son, Darren's, favorite player, "But he always likes good hitters."

Without saying any of this applied to Votto, Baker talked about the pressures of playing baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals have Khalil Greene on the disabled list with social anxiety.

"Nobody knows who it is going to affect and when it is going to affect anybody," he said. "You deal with pressure every day in this game. People throw the money issue in your face all the time. There is a lot more coverage. It's a high-pressure world.

"Sports is one of the few professionals where you reach your goal at a very young age," Baker added. "Most guys reach their goals between their 40s and 50s. Maintaining a balance in your life can be a very tough thing. The game can become all-encompassing, day and night. It wakes you up in the middle of the night. It does me and I'm not even playing."

"It's tough to explain, tough to understand, tough to deal with," he said.

Asked if he thought Votto some day would come forward and reveal his issues, Baker said, "That's something I haven't approached him with and I probably never would."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/cincinnati-reds/baker-on-votto-im-not-worried-about-joey-143290.html

RANDY IN INDY
06-02-2009, 08:49 AM
A perfect example of Dusty Baker. He is a "players manager." I respect him very much in that regard.

Degenerate39
06-02-2009, 09:00 AM
I like Baker in interviews like those. When it comes to managing games not so much.

Falls City Beer
06-02-2009, 09:44 AM
Baker's response is EXACTLY how you handle the situation--take the secretiveness out of it, defuse it, and stand up for your player. Thank you, Dusty.

LincolnparkRed
06-02-2009, 09:50 AM
I like Baker in interviews like those. When it comes to managing games not so much.

That is Dusty, his players will love him, but the average fan gets driven nuts by some of that same love when it clouds his judgement on the field.

Falls City Beer
06-02-2009, 09:52 AM
That is Dusty, his players will love him, but the average fan gets driven nuts by some of that same love when it clouds his judgement on the field.

My take is that when a fan base hates a guy as much as the Cubs' base hates Dusty, I feel comfortable in assuming he's a great man.

I'd rather hang out in a hot tub with the biggest fattest drunkest Phillies fans than I would even speak to a Cubs' fan; they are odious chancres.

RichRed
06-02-2009, 10:04 AM
My take is that when a fan base hates a guy as much as the Cubs' base hates Dusty, I feel comfortable in assuming he's a great man.

I'd rather hang out in a hot tub with the biggest fattest drunkest Phillies fans than I would even speak to a Cubs' fan; they are odious chancres.

And they're freaking everywhere. My first boss in western North Carolina was a Cubs fan. The company I work for in Va. Beach has only about 40 employees, and three of them are Cubs fans. A pox on them all.

Back on topic, that article is a prime example of the Good Dusty. I like the way he's sticking up for his player there too. I hope, and expect, that that's a comfort to Votto as he goes through a difficult time.

Chip R
06-02-2009, 11:46 AM
And they're freaking everywhere.


Just like excrement.

Strikes Out Looking
06-02-2009, 01:00 PM
I'd like to chime in here and say how much I hate the Cubs and their fans. (If you look at my posts, they are probably 1/3 about this subject).

westofyou
06-02-2009, 01:17 PM
Cubs fans and the Cubs bother me not at all, in fact I enjoy Wrigley Field immensely and all other fans are usually cut from the same template to me, especially from my POV out here in the west.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 01:34 PM
I don't think hardcore Cubs fans are any different than other team's hardcore fans. The problem is they have a way higher percentage of bandwagon fans than your average team. Living in Indiana during the Cubs 03 playoff run cemented my hatred for that franchise, you saw Cubs gear coming out of woodworks on people who have never cared about the team before or since.

Falls City Beer
06-02-2009, 01:43 PM
Wrigley attendees are gutter people (other teams' visitors excepted).

Homer Bailey
06-02-2009, 01:49 PM
Basic transcript from the last Reds/Cubs game I attended:

Guy behind me (Cub "fan")- The Reds suck! (multiple multiple times right in my ear.)

Me (7th inning or so, after I had enough) - When was the last time the Cubs won the world series?

Cub fan: When was the last time the Reds won the world series?

Me: At least I can say it was in my lifetime, 1990.

Cub fan: (silence for a while) I bet you can't name the cleanup hitter on the 1990 reds

Me: Eric Davis

(Most incredibly awkward silence ever for this guy. There are about 15 people listening to us bark back and forth, and they begin to giggle at this guy's idiocracy).

Cub fan: ummmm.... uhhhhh.... are you sure??

Me: Yes. Who is the Cubs clean up hitter TODAY??

Cub fan : Ummmm..... uhhhhh..... (looks around and scoreboards.... any fan knows that they don't display lineups at wrigley..... but he keeps looking..... then blurts out......0

SAMMY SOSA!

Chip R
06-02-2009, 01:54 PM
LOL! Typical.

RichRed
06-02-2009, 01:55 PM
It's been my experience that Cubs fans are, incredibly, some of the biggest trashtalkers. Cubs fans talking trash! It would be funny if it weren't so sad and lame.

Eric_the_Red
06-02-2009, 01:59 PM
There's our next Redzone t-shirt: "At least we're not Cubs fans." :thumbup:

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 02:00 PM
It's been my experience that Cubs fans are, incredibly, some of the biggest trashtalkers. Cubs fans talking trash! It would be funny if it weren't so sad and lame.

Yep. I've been to quite a few Reds/Cubs games at GABP and Cubs fans are always talking trash and trying to pick fights. They are the dumbest fans in baseball. I try to avoid going to Reds/Cubs games now because of their fans.

remdog
06-02-2009, 02:56 PM
Possibly the greatest tradition in MLB is that the Cubs never win the World Series. It would be a bleak day for baseball if that were to change.

Rem

Tommyjohn25
06-02-2009, 03:10 PM
Yep. I've been to quite a few Reds/Cubs games at GABP and Cubs fans are always talking trash and trying to pick fights. They are the dumbest fans in baseball. I try to avoid going to Reds/Cubs games now because of their fans.

I had one try and start a fight with me when I went to Wrigley a few years back. I was coming out of the bathroom wearing my Griffey Jersey and this extremely drunk, obnoxious Cubs fan gave me the ol' shoulder bump and told me to "Take that crap off if you're going to come to our ballpark." I shoved the guy and he slipped and fell to the floor. He was too drunk to get up, so I just went back to my seat and watched the rest of the game. The Reds won that day too so it was an all out win day for me.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 04:15 PM
Basic transcript from the last Reds/Cubs game I attended:

Guy behind me (Cub "fan")- The Reds suck! (multiple multiple times right in my ear.)

Me (7th inning or so, after I had enough) - When was the last time the Cubs won the world series?

Cub fan: When was the last time the Reds won the world series?

Me: At least I can say it was in my lifetime, 1990.

Cub fan: (silence for a while) I bet you can't name the cleanup hitter on the 1990 reds

Me: Eric Davis

(Most incredibly awkward silence ever for this guy. There are about 15 people listening to us bark back and forth, and they begin to giggle at this guy's idiocracy).

Cub fan: ummmm.... uhhhhh.... are you sure??

Me: Yes. Who is the Cubs clean up hitter TODAY??

Cub fan : Ummmm..... uhhhhh..... (looks around and scoreboards.... any fan knows that they don't display lineups at wrigley..... but he keeps looking..... then blurts out......0

SAMMY SOSA!

That pretty much sums up most of the Cub fans I have talked to over the years. I had the choice between going to the game this Friday or another game coming up and I choose the other game just because I did not want to sit with the most annoying group of fans in all sports.

fearofpopvol1
06-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Is there any good chance that Votto will be back by June 14? The Reds might be able to pull it together for another 9 days...but really, they can't afford too much longer without his bat or another move if they want any chance at the postseason.

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2009, 05:13 PM
-- Baker said he had talked again to Joey Votto, but Baker declined to provide details. We saw Votto in street clothes in the clubhouse, but reporters had already been told by Reds media relations director Rob Butcher that Votto is not yet ready to speak publicly. Votto went on the DL on May 30 because of stress and is eligible to come off the DL June 14. Baker said he does not have a timetable on Votto's return.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a57a367cc-662e-4df0-bf81-e54095e0aa08&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

icehole3
06-06-2009, 10:00 AM
my guess is with his father dying recently his mom maybe having trouble dealing with it and its effecting him as well

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-06-2009, 07:04 PM
Looks like it's time to start making long-term plans without Joey Votto :(

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/06/06/votto_wont_return_when_dl_time.html

HeatherC1212
06-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Looks like it's time to start making long-term plans without Joey Votto :(

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/06/06/votto_wont_return_when_dl_time.html

That's the exact same news OBM posted up this thread a few posts and no where does it say Joey is going to be out long term. All this article says is that he won't return a week from tomorrow and that there's no time table set for his return right now. Maybe we should all be patient and hope that Joey continues to work through whatever is bothering him before we jump the gun about his status? :confused:

And just for the record, I hate the flipping Cubs and their fans. *grumbles* :thumbdown