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View Full Version : The Ramon Hernandez Appreciation Thread



Eric_the_Red
06-02-2009, 11:50 AM
I can't believe there isn't more love in RZ for Ramon Hernandez. I think he has been a great acquisition for the Reds, especially in light of his willingness to play first with Votto out.

Before this season he had played a total of 20 innings at 1B. This year he has played 110.2. He also was willing to play 3B for an inning in a time of need. And he has thrown out 37% of runners attempting to steal while catching.

After a poor April at the plate, .246/.303/.344, he rebounded nicely in May, .312/.383/.419.

Just imagine where the team would be with the Bako or Valentin instead.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:51 AM
Up to this point, he's the best catcher in the National League. He should get an All Star bid IMO. Once you take his defense into account, it's not really even close I think.

RANDY IN INDY
06-02-2009, 11:53 AM
Much more versatile than anyone knew. Plays a very good 1b. Has been a definite plus for the 09 Reds. Good move by Jocketty.

dfs
06-02-2009, 11:56 AM
I believe broadcasters have been pointing out that Hernandez regularly plays first base in winter ball to save his legs.

I was initially unimpressed with his range at first, but he's made some nice plays there lately so I may have just jumped the gun.

Getting this guy for the remnants of Ryan Freel was a steal.

oneupper
06-02-2009, 12:02 PM
I do believe that Ramon ENJOYS playing 1B. He has played there quite a bit in the winter seasons in Venezuela.

And this website's name suggests that Ramon isn't that fond of catching!

http://www.ramonhernandezputdownthegun.com/

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 12:14 PM
Tremendous upgrade for the Reds. Hernandez is a much more highly skilled player than I realized. Professional hitter. Superb trade by Jocketty and Co.

I think Baker's going to have to be careful to get him days off here and there. I know it's tough now with Votto gone, but Hernandez is not young and his body will wear down in the heat as the season progresses.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 12:23 PM
How about some love for his partner in crime Ryan Hanigan too? Take a look at what the Reds are getting from the catcher position:

2009 Reds: .309/.379/.410
2009 NL Average: .262/.343/.404

And compare that to what happened last year for the Reds at catcher: .234/.330/.351

Hernandez and Hanigan are doing an awesome job.

osuceltic
06-02-2009, 02:45 PM
Love Hernandez. I think he might lead the team in Batting Average in Low Leverage Situations. Reminds me of Bo Diaz in his knack for coming up with clutch two-out hits.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 03:27 PM
I believe broadcasters have been pointing out that Hernandez regularly plays first base in winter ball to save his legs.

I was initially unimpressed with his range at first, but he's made some nice plays there lately so I may have just jumped the gun.

Getting this guy for the remnants of Ryan Freel was a steal.

Don't forget, we also had to part with Brandon Waring and Justin Turner too. And they're both playing very well. So I won't go so far as saying it was a steal. A good trade though.

TRF
06-02-2009, 03:27 PM
How about some love for his partner in crime Ryan Hanigan too? Take a look at what the Reds are getting from the catcher position:

2009 Reds: .309/.379/.410
2009 NL Average: .262/.343/.404

And compare that to what happened last year for the Reds at catcher: .234/.330/.351

Hernandez and Hanigan are doing an awesome job.

Only Atlanta and Philadelphia have had more production at C in the NL this year. Great addition in Hernandez, major upgrade in Hanigan as the backup.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 03:34 PM
I get the feeling that Hernandez is a leader on this team and one of the players who may help get them through this tough injury period. No basis for this except my observation at a couple of games and watching the team on TV.

Will M
06-02-2009, 03:41 PM
Don't forget, we also had to part with Brandon Waring and Justin Turner too. And they're both playing very well. So I won't go so far as saying it was a steal. A good trade though.

imo it was an absolute steal. remember - we were going to pay Freel millions of dollars to stink.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 03:51 PM
imo it was an absolute steal. remember - we were going to pay Freel millions of dollars to stink.

Don't get me wrong, I was happy to see Freel go along with his ridiculous contract, but Hernandez's wasn't a very good contract either. Money-wise it was close to a wash. Basically I look at it as the improvement of Ramon's production over Freel's production traded for those 2 prospects. We won the trade IMO without a doubt, but depending upon how Waring and Turner fair...I wouldn't call it a steal quite yet. If they bomb...and Ramon keeps it up, big time theft. :O)

Strikes Out Looking
06-02-2009, 03:59 PM
imo it was an absolute steal. remember - we were going to pay Freel millions of dollars to stink.

I believe Farney stayed and has assisted Ramon with his playing of multiple positions.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 04:00 PM
Brandon Waring at high A this season.....(.291 avg/.368 obp/.520 slg/.887 ops) 21 bb / 45 k's (his walk/k ratio was his biggest downside when he was with us)

Justin Turner in AAA this season..... (.296 / .355 / .375 / .730)

Like I said, they're both doing QUITE well. Too early to call this trade either way yet.

traderumor
06-02-2009, 04:05 PM
The prospects given up are nebulous in evaluating this deal, regardless of how they turn out. They were middling prospects. The real win is that we have a producing player at our weakest position and a position where our lack of depth was exposed by Votto's illnesses for a player that has totally bombed in Baltimore and is now on the DL, which is where he was spending most of his time in Cincy, as well.

remdog
06-02-2009, 04:06 PM
I think the OP is wrong. There has been a lot of love for Hernandez on this board. Just read the game threads or visit chat.

Personally, I've been big on this trade since it was made and I've said that before. I've only been disappointed that the more agressive moves didn't follow this one.

Right now, RH and RH (RH2) represent the biggest upgrade of any position on the team this year. And, as I said in thread last year, the quickest way to improve your team is to improve your weakest position----which is what Catcher was last year for the Reds.

Rem

remdog
06-02-2009, 04:11 PM
Too early to call this trade either way yet.


Totally disagree with this. I believe that trades should be judged upon the circumstances when they were made.

Rem

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 04:15 PM
Totally disagree with this. I believe that trades should be judged upon the circumstances when they were made.

Rem

I meant in terms of the trade being a "steal" or not. It was a good trade for us at the time and it filled a major need for us. I don't think anybody questions that. But if those 2 kids turn out to be studs, I don't think you can call this deal a "steal". That's all. Both Waring & Turner have/had solid upsides. I just don't think you can look at this deal as strictly Freel for Ramon.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 04:22 PM
I meant in terms of the trade being a "steal" or not. It was a good trade for us at the time and it filled a major need for us. I don't think anybody questions that. But if those 2 kids turn out to be studs, I don't think you can call this deal a "steal". That's all. Both Waring & Turner have/had solid upsides. I just don't think you can look at this deal as strictly Freel for Ramon.

The problem is that those 2 kids are unlikely to turn out to be studs. I know you won't take my word for it but just wait and see. I won't go so far as to insinuate they can't be productive major leaguers (at least in Turner's case) but studs is awfully far fetched.

traderumor
06-02-2009, 04:27 PM
I meant in terms of the trade being a "steal" or not. It was a good trade for us at the time and it filled a major need for us. I don't think anybody questions that. But if those 2 kids turn out to be studs, I don't think you can call this deal a "steal". That's all. Both Waring & Turner have/had solid upsides. I just don't think you can look at this deal as strictly Freel for Ramon.What I am saying is that the prospects were not figured to be contributors in the near future, if ever for the Reds. Based on that evaluation, the Orioles identified a few "B" prospects to balance the cash given for Ramon in the deal. Whatever they become, their value in this trade was "Freel and two prospects."

I would add that while there is often the testimonial of the afterthought prospect turning into an All-Star, this is a rare exception. A team can find a gem here and there in knowing what middling or low-level prospect to ask for (EE, for example), but more often than not they are long forgotten as part of some deal.

Eric_the_Red
06-02-2009, 04:42 PM
I think the OP is wrong. There has been a lot of love for Hernandez on this board. Just read the game threads or visit chat.



Sorry, I don't make the chats often and rarely read the game threads. Seems to me like there wasn't a lot of love for RH here in the ORG and in my days in the Sun Deck.

Seems from this thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72895)a lot of ORG members were against the deal from the beginning.

My point was that his performance has been good, but his ability to fill in at first and his defense have both been huge plusses. I wonder where the team would be now if the deal wasn't made.

jojo
06-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Sorry, I don't make the chats often and rarely read the game threads. Seems to me like there wasn't a lot of love for RH here in the ORG and in my days in the Sun Deck.

Seems from this thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72895)a lot of ORG members were against the deal from the beginning.

My point was that his performance has been good, but his ability to fill in at first and his defense have both been huge plusses. I wonder where the team would be now if the deal wasn't made.

I don't remember a ton of people in that thread arguing that the deal shouldn't have been done.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 04:57 PM
The problem is that those 2 kids are unlikely to turn out to be studs. I know you won't take my word for it but just wait and see. I won't go so far as to insinuate they can't be productive major leaguers (at least in Turner's case) but studs is awfully far fetched.

I don't think they will either. But I've seen quite a few "middling" prospects, as someone put it, turn out to be superstars.

Wow, I didn't mean to start a whole debate about it. It's a great trade and Ramon is doing fantastic. I was only pointing out that we shouldn't overlook the addition of the 2 kids in that trade.

TRF
06-02-2009, 04:59 PM
Sorry, I don't make the chats often and rarely read the game threads. Seems to me like there wasn't a lot of love for RH here in the ORG and in my days in the Sun Deck.

Seems from this thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72895)a lot of ORG members were against the deal from the beginning.

My point was that his performance has been good, but his ability to fill in at first and his defense have both been huge plusses. I wonder where the team would be now if the deal wasn't made.

I wasn't against the trade (I just looked) but I did say I was going to miss Freel. When he was healthy, he was an outstanding leadoff hitter, and fun to watch defensively. He's made two of the best catches I have ever seen any Red make, The one against Pujols and the one in Chicago at 3B.

icehole3
06-02-2009, 05:14 PM
good trade or not, I love what Hernandez is doing with the staff particularly with Volquez and Cueto, but mainly Volquez. I think Volquez loses concentration more than Cueto and Volquez is looking for the K more than Cueto and it makes him much more wilder than Cueto. I've seen times where Hernandez will go out and talk to Volquez only to have Volquez continuing to throw the ball all over the place, then Hernandez being exhausted with Volquez will begin to throw the ball back to him just as wild as if to say, "son get your act together or Im going to make you look foolish chasing the ball." Just my opinion.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 05:51 PM
Sorry, I don't make the chats often and rarely read the game threads. Seems to me like there wasn't a lot of love for RH here in the ORG and in my days in the Sun Deck.

Seems from this thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72895)a lot of ORG members were against the deal from the beginning.

My point was that his performance has been good, but his ability to fill in at first and his defense have both been huge plusses. I wonder where the team would be now if the deal wasn't made.

That thread is a good read, some things to be learned from it. I was for the trade then and so far have been more than pleased with every aspect of Ramons game. Had I known he was such a good fielder at 1st to boot I'd have called it an absolute drubbing dished out by Walt.

GAC
06-02-2009, 05:58 PM
Here's the original trade thread.....http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72962&highlight=Ramon+Hernandez

I'm sure there are some (not that many) who are now having to eat their words. ;)

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 05:58 PM
I don't think they will either. But I've seen quite a few "middling" prospects, as someone put it, turn out to be superstars.

Wow, I didn't mean to start a whole debate about it. It's a great trade and Ramon is doing fantastic. I was only pointing out that we shouldn't overlook the addition of the 2 kids in that trade.

I am not trying to argue with you about it just pointing out that trading those prospects are no big loss in the grand scheme of things. Every prospect we have worthy of being traded for a productive major leaguer could help us in some way eventually but we can't field that many players at one time anyway. Guys have to be dealt that's just a fact and if they have to be dealt then deal the guys who represent marginal to no future value. Personally I think we should have done a bit more trading of prospects than we did last offseason. Just don't go trading away the cream of the crop for less than a better return.

HeatherC1212
06-02-2009, 06:00 PM
A change of scenery did him a world of good and I'm happy to see him playing so well. It's really cool to see him being such a great team player after having a rough time in Baltimore the last few years.

TRF
06-02-2009, 06:08 PM
Brandon Waring is progressing quite nicely. He's hitting for power in a league that suppresses power, and his OBP is up.

I love the trade, I'd make it 10 times out of 10, but Waring could be something for the O's in 1-2 years. I'll bet they move him to AA soon. an .887 OPS in the FSL ain't bad.

GAC
06-02-2009, 06:09 PM
EVERYBODY LOVES RAMON

http://www.lasvegasroomsandshows.com/Headliners/images/brad_garrett.jpg

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 06:18 PM
Here's the original trade thread.....http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72962&highlight=Ramon+Hernandez

I'm sure there are some (not that many) who are now having to eat their words. ;)

No question. I heard he was a terrible hitter & a terrible defender at different parts in that thread. More than a little disappointed that people made those as statements of fact, quite misleading to those who didn't know for sure. Although it's early yet maybe they turn out to be true but I haven't seen anything from Ramon to indicate he'd be poor at any one thing.

jojo
06-02-2009, 06:49 PM
No question. I heard he was a terrible hitter & a terrible defender at different parts in that thread. More than a little disappointed that people made those as statements of fact, quite misleading to those who didn't know for sure. Although it's early yet maybe they turn out to be true but I haven't seen anything from Ramon to indicate he'd be poor at any one thing.

So far he has been better than expected defensively in the sense that his passed balls are down and his caught stealing is higher. That said, his Baltimore tenure was a poor defensive showing that a third of a season as a Red shouldn't expunge from the record. Offensively, he looks to be about what he was projected to be-a league average bat. Really the projections for Hernandez have seemed to have captured him perfectly.

I don't know if he's a leader or not but if his attitude needed a change of scenery, I'd suggest not.

I'm assuming some of the statements in this thread about him being the best catcher in the NL are hyperbole. The reality is that a Ross/Hanigan pairing would've been at least as valuable given their productions to this point in the season (and assuming Ross was a minus defender).

As a first baseman, Hernandez is a liability long term but it's nice that he can play there once in a while.

Redszone tends to overcompensate when players do well and when they hit a rough patch. Taking nothing away from those who have enjoyed RH as a Red, this might be another example regarding the true impact he's had upon the Reds playoff chances.

Just IMHO.....

traderumor
06-02-2009, 07:12 PM
I don't know if he's a leader or not but if his attitude needed a change of scenery, I'd suggest not.
I think Baltimore is about as dysfunctional an organization as there is right now, so that may not all be on him, esp. since it isn't like employment at will, where he would leave a dysfunctional organization as a demonstration of leadership.

remdog
06-02-2009, 07:36 PM
Here's what I wrote at the time that Hernandez was obtained:

"Nice job, Walt.

Now, go get us a SS, a big bat in LF and a right-handed hitting OF to team with Dickerson in CF and the Red might actually be in the running for a playoff spot."

Any disappointment I had was that the Reds didn't do the followup work.

Rem

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 08:34 PM
So far he has been better than expected defensively in the sense that his passed balls are down and his caught stealing is higher. That said, his Baltimore tenure was a poor defensive showing that a third of a season as a Red shouldn't expunge from the record. Offensively, he looks to be about what he was projected to be-a league average bat. Really the projections for Hernandez have seemed to have captured him perfectly.

I don't know if he's a leader or not but if his attitude needed a change of scenery, I'd suggest not.

I'm assuming some of the statements in this thread about him being the best catcher in the NL are hyperbole. The reality is that a Ross/Hanigan pairing would've been at least as valuable given their productions to this point in the season (and assuming Ross was a minus defender).

As a first baseman, Hernandez is a liability long term but it's nice that he can play there once in a while.

Redszone tends to overcompensate when players do well and when they hit a rough patch. Taking nothing away from those who have enjoyed RH as a Red, this might be another example regarding the true impact he's had upon the Reds playoff chances.

Just IMHO.....

I'd argue that many people felt it was plausible that a lot of his poor defensive #'s could have been attributed in large part to a pretty bad pitching staff. Others stated he was pretty much garbage as a defender, no explanation to back it up really. From what I have seen the former holds a lot more water than the latter. Basically people read those CS and PB #'s and made the assumption that largely Ramon was to blame, at least that is how it looked. I wouldn't suggest he's Brian McCann or Yadier Molina but he's a pretty doggone good overall catcher and more than just "eh" which seemed to be some peoples feeling on him.

RedsManRick
06-02-2009, 09:38 PM
I was pretty 'meh' about the trade when it happened. I'll reserve final judgment until the end of the season, but I certainly won't complain about what we've gotten from him so far. My biggest gripe was that it was solving a problem for which we already had a solution. When you figure that Hanigan (.333/.420/.406) could have been playing every day and Gomes could have been filling in at 1B, I'm not sure we've actually netted all that much production. You have to consider the opportunity costs involved too. Considering that we went out and resigned Hairston to fill Freel's role, we did add salary in the move.

traderumor
06-02-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm still not sold that Hanigan is an everyday catcher. I think he is in the perfect role to excel. I would imagine his slugging is just a few points above his OBP.

remdog
06-02-2009, 09:55 PM
I was pretty 'meh' about the trade when it happened. I'll reserve final judgment until the end of the season, but I certainly won't complain about what we've gotten from him so far. My biggest gripe was that it was solving a problem for which we already had a solution. When you figure that Hanigan (.333/.420/.406) could have been playing every day and Gomes could have been filling in at 1B, I'm not sure we've actually netted all that much production. You have to consider the opportunity costs involved too. Considering that we went out and resigned Hairston to fill Freel's role, we did add salary in the move.

If Hernandez continues to have to play first base everyday we'll find out if Hannigan is an everyday catcher. I'm not sure if he is or isn't right now.

However, it's great to have that kind of depth at Catcher and give Hannigan get a chance to grow with this staff. Also, Hernandez seems to work well with Cueto and Volquez so, if that helps them improve, that's a big plus.

Rem

VR
06-02-2009, 10:50 PM
His plate presence has been just amazing. Very patient....doesn't swing at too many balls out of the zone....and take the outside pitch to right with great joy.
If nothing else....he sets a great example for EE, JB, BP, and AG.

I only wish they were watching. (Actually, I think BP started to in May)

VR
06-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Oh, and he's got wheels too. :cool:

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 10:58 PM
I was pretty 'meh' about the trade when it happened. I'll reserve final judgment until the end of the season, but I certainly won't complain about what we've gotten from him so far. My biggest gripe was that it was solving a problem for which we already had a solution. When you figure that Hanigan (.333/.420/.406) could have been playing every day and Gomes could have been filling in at 1B, I'm not sure we've actually netted all that much production. You have to consider the opportunity costs involved too. Considering that we went out and resigned Hairston to fill Freel's role, we did add salary in the move.

Planning to play Hanigan everyday, whose career best year was a .811 OPS as a 27 year old in AAA, would have been a really risky move. He didn't have nearly the track record to merit being handed the job in the offseason. If he stays close to his current production, then you think about giving him the job going into 2010. IMO Hanigan has been handled extremely well by the Reds.

remdog
06-02-2009, 11:06 PM
IMO Hanigan has been handled extremely well by the Reds.

I agree. And over the next two weeks I think we'll get a better idea of where Hanigan is in terms of his hitting. Personally, I think his defense is good; it's just a question of where his bat can be.

As an aside, I wish Jay Bruce was as patient as Ryan Hanigan.

Rem