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Red in Chicago
06-02-2009, 08:50 PM
Cincinnati
W. Taveras cf
J. Bruce rf
B. Phillips 2b
R. Hernandez 1b
L. Nix lf
A. Gonzalez ss
A. Rosales 3b
R. Hanigan c
B. Arroyo p

St. Louis
S. Schumaker 2b
C. Rasmus cf
A. Pujols 1b
R. Ludwick rf
R. Ankiel lf
Y. Molina c
J. Thurston 3b
B. Thompson p
B. Ryan ss

klw
06-02-2009, 08:58 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9639970/Reds-place-Volquez-on-DL-with-elbow-tendinitis


Baker moved slumping Jay Bruce, 1 for 16 with one RBI in the first five games of a seven-game trip, to second in the batting order for Tuesday's game against the Cardinals. Baker said Bruce needs to work on his pitch selection and believes that spot could be helpful.

"You can tell he's getting frustrated," the manager said. "Just because they're supposed to throw you strikes doesn't mean they're going to throw you strikes. They're teasing him out of the zone."

Utilityman Jerry Hairston Jr. missed his second straight start with flu-like symptoms but Baker said Hairston was feeling better and would probably play Wednesday. Center fielder Willy Taveras was back in the leadoff slot after missing three starts with tightness in his right hamstring.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:16 PM
Taveras grounds out to third on the first pitch.

alloverjr
06-02-2009, 09:16 PM
Taveras grounds out to third on the first pitch.

leadoff hitter

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:17 PM
Bruce lines out to right

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:17 PM
Bruce hits it hard but Ludwick gets to it out in rightfield for the second out.

Homer Bailey
06-02-2009, 09:19 PM
Whattya know. Another shot by Bruce that gets tracked down. Seriously. How long can this go on?

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:19 PM
Phillips grounds out to 3rd. 0-0 mid 1st.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:19 PM
Did BP hurt himself there? Looked like he was in pain and the camera angle I saw didn't show him anywhere near first base, indicating he didn't run.

Homer Bailey
06-02-2009, 09:21 PM
Phillips in pain after the ground out. Hmmm... where have we seen this before? A Reds player comes back too early from injury just to go on the DL.... or back to the DL.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Not a good way to start a 4 pitch walk to Schumaker

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Four pitch walk to Schumaker.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:24 PM
Rasmus lines a double over Nix's head. 2nd and 3rd.

Degenerate39
06-02-2009, 09:27 PM
I'm sick of hearing about how great Pujols is. We all know he is great and all his accomplishments

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:27 PM
Nice stop by Gonzalez. Run scores on the groundout. 1-0 Cards.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:28 PM
Nobody able to track down a pop-up in foul territory.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:29 PM
Jay's GOT to take charge of that. He just stopped and gave way to the infielders. WRONG! I hope Dusty let's him hear it on that one.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:31 PM
Ludwick flies out to the track in right. Runner goes to 3rd. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Thankfully only one run this inning for St. Louis.

remdog
06-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Jay's GOT to take charge of that. He just stopped and gave way to the infielders. WRONG! I hope Dusty let's him hear it on that one.


Agreed. He's got the ball in sight the whole way and, if he catches it, he's got the best opportunity to keep the runner from advancing to 3rd.

Rem

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Ankiel flies out to right. 1-0 Cards after 1.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Good job by Bronson to limit the damage. Hopefully that's his first innning jitters out of the way and he settles down from here. HOPEfully. :O)

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm all for keeping the dugout/clubhouse light-hearted and easy going and fun...but with young players, they need to be slapped down from time to time. This is one of those times in regards to Jay. Chastise him FIRMLY in front of everyone. Get that point across.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:35 PM
Hernandez fouls out to the catcher.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Nix seems to be heating up again.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Nix singles to left.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Gonzalez flies out to left on the first pitch. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:37 PM
I just realized, why on earth is Hanigan batting 8th? He's one of the only guys who's been consistently good of late.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:39 PM
Rosales grounds into a 5-4 FC. 1-0 Cards mid 2nd.

remdog
06-02-2009, 09:39 PM
I'm all for keeping the dugout/clubhouse light-hearted and easy going and fun...but with young players, they need to be slapped down from time to time. This is one of those times in regards to Jay. Chastise him FIRMLY in front of everyone. Get that point across.

I'd have Billy Hatcher get Bruce, Phillips and Hernandez together in the far corner of the dugout and explain to all three of them how that play should have worked.

Rem

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:39 PM
I just realized, why on earth is Hanigan batting 8th? He's one of the only guys who's been consistently good of late.

Who knows. Maybe that's where he's most comfortable. Could be as simple as that.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 09:41 PM
Brad Thompson looks like a girl that has had a sex change. Sorry couldn't help myself.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:41 PM
I'd have Billy Hatcher get Bruce, Phillips and Hernandez together in the far corner of the dugout and explain to all three of them how that play should have worked.

Rem

That would certainly get the point across to those 3 guys, but I'd prefer it to be in front of the others so the young guys know that even the best players are going to be held up to the highest standards and if you screw up...you're going to hear about it. But that's just me. If they blow it off though... *grrrrrrr*

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:42 PM
Molina flies out to center. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:43 PM
Thurston grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:43 PM
Good inning for Bronson there.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:44 PM
Thompson strikes out swinging. 1-0 Cards after 2.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 09:44 PM
Brad Thompson looks like a girl that has had a sex change. Sorry couldn't help myself.

Swings like one 2. :D

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:45 PM
Marty & Co. are talking about Bruce's struggles. Personally I think it's somewhat overblown. He's been pretty consistantly hitting the ball VERY hard and on the nose...just right at people. His strikeouts have looked bad, but he's really not striking out that much (compared to what was expected for him)...they just look horrible when he does.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:46 PM
Swings like one 2. :D

*waiting for Heather to show up and kick some Mario-Rijo tail* :D

remdog
06-02-2009, 09:46 PM
That would certainly get the point across to those 3 guys, but I'd prefer it to be in front of the others so the young guys know that even the best players are going to be held up to the highest standards and if you screw up...you're going to hear about it. But that's just me. If they blow it off though... *grrrrrrr*

I agree that it should be addressed in someway.

Rem

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:47 PM
Hanigan pops out to 2nd. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Bronson doubles to the left field corner.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Bronson with a linedrive double in the corner.

Degenerate39
06-02-2009, 09:48 PM
I love watching Bronson's hair bounce in the wind as he runs the bases

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Taveras flies out to left. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Willy T still struggling.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Willy flies out. time for some pushups willy! :O)

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 09:50 PM
*waiting for Heather to show up and kick some Mario-Rijo tail* :D

She might have a girlish charm but I suspect she's all woman. Speaking of which where in the world has VP and KittyDuran been?

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:50 PM
I love watching Bronson's hair bounce in the wind as he runs the bases

LOL. No, that's not a disturbing post at ALL. Hehe.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:50 PM
Bruce grounds out to 2nd. 1-0 Cards mid 3rd.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 09:51 PM
LOL. No, that's not a disturbing post at ALL. Hehe.

May be disturbing but it's damn funny!

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 09:54 PM
Ryan singles to left.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Schumaker with a really solid AB...making Bronson really work.

Big Klu
06-02-2009, 10:01 PM
I love watching Bronson's hair bounce in the wind as he runs the bases


LOL. No, that's not a disturbing post at ALL. Hehe.


May be disturbing but it's damn funny!

Please don't tell us that you hear Ravel's Bolero in the background!

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:03 PM
Ryan steals 2nd as this marathon at bat continues

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Schumaker strikes out. I think that was 15 pitches. He was batting for 10 minutes.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:04 PM
14th pitch finally K's Schumaker...and that includes like 5-6 picks to first.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Rasmus flies out to center. 2 outs.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:05 PM
And then Rasmus is out on the FIRST pitch. :O)

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:06 PM
On a 1-1 count they decide to intentionally walk Pujols.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:07 PM
1-1 count to Pujols and then they decide to IBB him. Odd.

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:08 PM
Marty & Co. are talking about Bruce's struggles. Personally I think it's somewhat overblown. He's been pretty consistantly hitting the ball VERY hard and on the nose...just right at people. His strikeouts have looked bad, but he's really not striking out that much (compared to what was expected for him)...they just look horrible when he does.

He's definitely had some bad luck. However, he's hit nearly four percent below the major league average for line drive percentage. He's had a lot of softy, lazy flies to the outfield also. His swing selection has a lot to do with it, IMHO.

Personally, I think he's been closer to deserving of his current stats than unlucky. I concede it's in between, but he's got to be more patient and more selective.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:09 PM
He's definitely had some bad luck. However, he's hit nearly four percent below the major league average for line drive percentage. He's had a lot of softy, lazy flies to the outfield also. His swing selection has a lot to do with it, IMHO.

Personally, I think he's been closer to deserving of his current stats than unlucky. I concede it's in between, but he's got to be more patient and more selective.

If you look at the entire season, yeah. But I was referring to more recently...since that short break Dusty gave him a while back in Houston.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 10:10 PM
He's definitely had some bad luck. However, he's hit nearly four percent below the major league average for line drive percentage. He's had a lot of softy, lazy flies to the outfield also. His swing selection has a lot to do with it, IMHO.

Personally, I think he's been closer to deserving of his current stats than unlucky. I concede it's in between, but he's got to be more patient and more selective.

True dat, truuuudat!

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:10 PM
Ludwick strikes out swinging. A 30 pitch inning. 1-0 Cards after 3.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:12 PM
31 pitch inning from Bronson there. It sure seemed like more. But regardless...another solid inning from Arroyo. He seems to have settled in nicely.

~or 30...I may have miscounted.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:13 PM
Phillips doubles down the left field line.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:13 PM
Phillips with a leadoff 2 bagger. This is the inning we break thru!

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Hernandez singles to center. 1st and 3rd.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Ramon with a nice single up the middle. First and third with no outs, got to get some runs here.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Single up the middle. 1st & 3rd with no outs

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Nix with a sac fly to center to score BP!

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Sac fly to center for Nix. Tie game 1-1.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Ramon gets lucky as Skip missed the tag.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Hernandez steals 2nd. He would have been out on a busted hit and run but Schumaker missed the tag.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Ummm...did Ramon Hernandez just steal a base?!? *faints dead away*

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:17 PM
8th career SB for Ramon - From Marty

hebroncougar
06-02-2009, 10:17 PM
I have to say, that was a great call by that umpire. Schumaker missed the tag, but the ball beat Hernandez by 7 feet.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:17 PM
Really would like for A-Gon to deliver here.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:18 PM
8 career steals for Hernandez. His first steal in 2 years.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:19 PM
Bloop single to center for Gonzalez. 1st and 3rd.

BCubb2003
06-02-2009, 10:19 PM
8th career SB for Ramon - From Marty

He has a 62 percent success rate.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:19 PM
Bloop single to center for Gonzo. Ramon advances to third for Adam Rosales.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:19 PM
He has a 62 percent success rate.

Ramon or Marty? :D

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:20 PM
Rosales delivers off the glove of Thurston! 2-1 Reds.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:20 PM
Rosales hits a ball off Thurston's glove. 2nd and 3rd. 2-1 Reds!

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Flubbed play at third! 2nd & 3rd...Hernandez scores to make it 2-1 Redlegs.

They scored it a double. ~edit~ they switched it to an error. That's better.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Intentional walk to Hanigan. Bases loaded.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Hanigan intentionally walked to pack the bags.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:22 PM
I'm calling it. Arroyo grand slam. *grin*

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:22 PM
Argh. Double Play.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Bronson grounds into a 1-2-3 DP. 2-1 Reds mid 4th.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Ummm....Was I saying something?....*sheepish grin*

Arroyo grounds into a DP to end the inning. Oh well, we're still up. 2-1 Redlegs.

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:25 PM
Disappointing that it could have been much bigger an inning, but can't complain about two runs and turning the batting order over. Well, I guess one could complain, but it's not a real strong complaint lol

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:26 PM
Ankiel strikes out looking. 1 out.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:27 PM
KKKK

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:28 PM
Molina fouls out to right. 2 outs.

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:29 PM
For those not following at home: The fish are spanking the Brew Crew 10-1. That game is in the 6th inning.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:31 PM
Thurston singles to center.

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:33 PM
And another one bites the dust. Reds 2-1 after four.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:33 PM
Thompson strikes out swinging. 5 Ks. 2-1 Reds after 4.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Taveras grounds out to short. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Bruce flies out the warning track in left. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Again Bruce hits it deep but it's just a long flyout.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:40 PM
Phillips is hit by the pitch

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:42 PM
Hernandez grounds out to 3rd. 2-1 Reds mid 5th.

reds44
06-02-2009, 10:45 PM
Kevin Gregg just blew the save for the Cubs.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Ryan fouls out to 1st. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:47 PM
Schumaker singles to left.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:49 PM
Rasmus pops out to short. 2 outs.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 10:50 PM
Pujols ties it up with a double. I hate him.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:51 PM
Pujols doubles into the left field corner. Tie game 2-2.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:51 PM
Ludwick flies out to left. 2-2 after 5.

HotCorner
06-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Why pitch to Pujols in that situation?

redsfaninbsg
06-02-2009, 10:52 PM
I'm not sure I would pitch to Pujols the rest of the series. At this point is there really any reason to?

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Gotta put Albert on in that situation, let Ludwick beat you.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:53 PM
Shouldn't that have been an error on Nix?

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:54 PM
It's a tough situation. Problem is, if you put Pujols on and then Ludwick hits a home run, you're down 4-2 instead of tied 2-2. In that situation, I'm not sure I would have done much differently. If you're Bronson Arroyo, you simply can't let yourself make that mistake.

HotCorner
06-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Shouldn't that have been an error on Nix?

Yep but that would take an RBI away from Pujols ... so that won't happen.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 10:54 PM
It's a tough situation. Problem is, if you put Pujols on and then Ludwick hits a home run, you're down 4-2 instead of tied 2-2. In that situation, I'm not sure I would have done much differently. If you're Bronson Arroyo, you simply can't let yourself make that mistake.


Still, if ball is fielding cleanly in left, probably run doesn't score.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:56 PM
Miller in to pitch.

Nix walks.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:56 PM
Nix draws a walk to start the inning.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Top of 10th: Cubs 5 / Braves 5
Top of 8th: Brewers 1 / Marlins 10
Bottom of 6th: Rockies 2 / Astros 1
Final: Pirates 3 / Mets 1

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Jason Motte in to pitch. Nick Stavinoha in Left. Ankiel moves to Right. Ludwick out.

Brutus
06-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Still, if ball is fielding cleanly in left, probably run doesn't score.

Yes, that is true. I was more in disagreement with the thought Pujols more or less should have been walked. Even despite Pujols getting that hit, as you said, the Reds might have escaped if not for the error.

PuffyPig
06-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Gotta put Albert on in that situation, let Ludwick beat you.


Two outs, runner on first, no one walks Pujols.

Ludwick has got a much better chance of hitting a single than Pujols getting an XBH.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 10:59 PM
Double switch. Stavoniha in to play left. Ankiel moves to right. Motte in to pitch. Gonzalez grounds into a 6-4-3 DP.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 10:59 PM
Gonzo hits into the quick DP. 2 down, nobody on.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:00 PM
White? I've got Motte. Is Gameday wrong?

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 11:01 PM
Two outs, runner on first, no one walks Pujols.

Ludwick has got a much better chance of hitting a single than Pujols getting an XBH.

Beg to differ and I am sure as the season wears on most teams will put Pujols on in that situation. Right now he is their offense.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:01 PM
Welsh: "With rain expected do you play this inning differently, maybe play for one run and try to stay out of the double play... (trailing off)"

While he's in the middle of that sentence, Gonzalez grounds into the DP.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:03 PM
Rosales flies out to center. 2-2 mid 6th.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:03 PM
White? I've got Motte. Is Gameday wrong?No I misread the name off the jersey.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:04 PM
Beg to differ and I am sure as the season wears on most teams will put Pujols on in that situation. Right now he is their offense.

Really, there is no dispute here. Nobody is going to just intentionally walk Pujois there. Everybody is going to pitch him carefully -- and if he walks, he walks.

Arroyo simply made the pitch too good. You can't throw Pujois pitches in the middle of the plate or he will get a hit more often than not.

fearofpopvol1
06-02-2009, 11:05 PM
I apologize if it's been asked (and questioned) here, but can someone explain to me why Gonzo is batting 6th when he is clearly the worst hitter (next to the pitcher)?

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:05 PM
Ankiel grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:06 PM
Dang. Just lost the WLW feed. Anybody else lose it?

Brutus
06-02-2009, 11:06 PM
Arroyo simply made the pitch too good. You can't throw Pujois pitches in the middle of the plate or he will get a hit more often than not.

In my opinion, this is the key point. It comes down to simple execution, not so much an error in strategy or philosophy. I don't think the Reds did anything wrong there. Arroyo simply didn't locate the pitch very well.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:07 PM
Molina is hit in the back and slams his bat to the ground.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Molina is hit in the back and slams his bat to the ground.

Wouldn't be surprised if BA plunked him as a payback.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Thurston singles to right. A good throw had Molina at 3rd but the throw was way off. Thurston goes to 2nd. 2nd and 3rd.

Tom Servo
06-02-2009, 11:10 PM
Well, that was bad.

redsfaninbsg
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Some of the things this team does amaze me. I've said since week one that he plays to shallow, inexcusable.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Crud. 4-2 Cards. Taveras moves IN and then it goes over his head to the warning track. Arroyo's done I'd think.

CrackerJack
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Way to blow the game Taveras, that was pathetic. Already tiring of him.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Stavinoha doubles to center. Taveras was playing shallow and does not get back to the ball. Welsh is right you have to catch that ball. 4-2 Cards.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
What in the world was Taveras coming in on that ball for?

He's reallllly trying to play himself to the bench.

Matt700wlw
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
The Bad News Reds...

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Willy T ... the gift that keeps on giving. He is the jam of the month club

Cyclone792
06-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Taveras just put up one of the worst outfield reads I've ever seen. That's about as bad, if not worse, than what I saw with Wily Mo Pena.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Arroyo should flip off his center fielder for that pathetic of a play. Goodness.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:12 PM
I hear Chris Dickerson is pretty good at defense in CF...

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Taveras is just brutal.

PuffyPig
06-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Beg to differ and I am sure as the season wears on most teams will put Pujols on in that situation. Right now he is their offense.


I watch about 200 games a year, and I don't specifically recall any hitter being intentionally walked in that situation. Though I'm guessing it does ocurr.

It is substantially against the odds. If you start doing it, you will be burned way more than you will pitching to him. Pujols is hitting .152 based on XBH. Ludwick is hitting .254. Ludwick has a 67% better chance of scoring the runner. Plus Ludwick is hitting with another guy on base, better chance for a big inning.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Carlos Fisher getting some work.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:13 PM
I hear Chris Dickerson is pretty good at defense in CF...
Willy is fast, very fast

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:15 PM
Fisher in to pitch.

Runner goes to 3rd on a wild pitch.

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 11:15 PM
Not good execution by some of these players tonight

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:15 PM
So, everybody piles on Taveras, but nobody mentions the missed cutoff man by Bruce?

Don't get me wrong, it was a HORRIBLE play by Willy and he's been in a pitiful funk, but prior to the San Diego series...he was flat out solid IMO. Sometimes it seems like people have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on him....eagerly.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:15 PM
Taveras misplayed it, but one run was scoring anyway. Misplay cost the Reds a run.

Problem with this game is that the Reds lineup is so weak that they couldn't dispense with this Thompson guy and only have two runs. Unfortunate double play by Arroyo with bags full hurt. I don't know how many games they can win with Gonzo, Rosales, Hanigan, and pitcher at the bottom of the lineup, followed by Taveras who isn't hitting at all.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:16 PM
Ryan strikes out swinging. 2 outs.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
*sigh* Wild pitch #2 from Carlos. 5-2 Cards.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
A wild pitch that bounces off Hanigan scores another run. 5-2 Cards. What a nightmare inning.

Matt700wlw
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
This team tonight is looking like the crap of the past 8 years.

remdog
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
Tavaras has always been over rated as an OF and that play was a good example of his true value in CF.

Terrible.

Rem

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
Single for Schumaker.

PuffyPig
06-02-2009, 11:18 PM
Gift Double+WP+WP=Gift Run

VR
06-02-2009, 11:18 PM
Taveras misplayed it, but one run was scoring anyway. Misplay cost the Reds a run.

Problem with this game is that the Reds lineup is so weak that they couldn't dispense with this Thompson guy and only have two runs. Unfortunate double play by Arroyo with bags full hurt. I don't know how many games they can win with Gonzo, Rosales, Hanigan, and pitcher at the bottom of the lineup, followed by Taveras who isn't hitting at all.

Unfortunately, 2 extra runs scored as a result of that miscue.

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 11:19 PM
No error on the Taveras play and Bronson takes the hit.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:19 PM
Welsh is being pretty critical. I like it though, it's a nice contrast to Mr. Sunshine in the booth next to him.

CrackerJack
06-02-2009, 11:19 PM
So, everybody piles on Taveras, but nobody mentions the missed cutoff man by Bruce?

Don't get me wrong, it was a HORRIBLE play by Willy and he's been in a pitiful funk, but prior to the San Diego series...he was flat out solid IMO. Sometimes it seems like people have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on him....eagerly.

The replay seemed to show the ball skipped sideways (so to speak) off the wet grass - it was on time, just off target. George and Chris were mentioning it as well.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:20 PM
Schumaker is caught stealing. 5-2 Cards after 6.

Matt700wlw
06-02-2009, 11:21 PM
Welsh is being pretty critical. I like it though, it's a nice contrast to Mr. Sunshine in the booth next to him.

Mr. Sunshine is probably glad to see his Cardinals winning.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:21 PM
So, everybody piles on Taveras, but nobody mentions the missed cutoff man by Bruce?

Don't get me wrong, it was a HORRIBLE play by Willy and he's been in a pitiful funk, but prior to the San Diego series...he was flat out solid IMO. Sometimes it seems like people have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on him....eagerly.
Why would Bruce hit the cutoff man when he had a legit shot at Molina at 3rd?

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 11:22 PM
So, everybody piles on Taveras, but nobody mentions the missed cutoff man by Bruce?

Don't get me wrong, it was a HORRIBLE play by Willy and he's been in a pitiful funk, but prior to the San Diego series...he was flat out solid IMO. Sometimes it seems like people have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on him....eagerly.

I think Willy T having done absolutely nothing since Arizona has a lot to do with people jumping on him. It's all about what have you done for me lately, and frankly he hasn't been very good for awhile.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Mr. Sunshine in the booth next to him.well the Reds are playing in St. Louis, it doesn't get any better than that. Where is Jim Edmonds?

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:23 PM
Unfortunately, 2 extra runs scored as a result of that miscue.

No. One extra run scored as a result of the miscue. The next run scored because the pitcher threw two wild pitches.

Bruce's bad throw -- no problem.
Fisher's two wild pitches -- no problem.
Taveras' misplay in center -- different reaction.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:23 PM
frankly he hasn't been very good which defines his career

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:24 PM
Hanigan grounds out to short.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:24 PM
Multiple changes for St. Louis
Barden in to play 3rd, Thurston to 2nd, Schumaker to left.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:24 PM
No. One extra run scored as a result of the miscue. The next run scored because the pitcher threw two wild pitches.

Bruce's bad throw -- no problem.
Fisher's two wild pitches -- no problem.
Taveras' misplay in center -- different reaction.
There's a gigantic difference between 200 feet throw being offline and misjudging a flyball. A big, big difference.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:25 PM
well the Reds are playing in St. Louis, it doesn't get any better than that. Where is Jim Edmonds?

Thankfully he's gone but George's BFF "Albert" is doing pretty well tonight.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:27 PM
Dickerson pinch hits and walks.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:28 PM
Why would Bruce hit the cutoff man when he had a legit shot at Molina at 3rd?

I didn't think he had a legit shot. If I was wrong, fine. But I still stand by the fact that people have been waiting for the chance to pile on Taveras since day 1. I don't think he's a great player (not by a longshot), but I still think he was a good addition to the team...he's just struggling right now.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:29 PM
Dickerson always gives quality ABs.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:29 PM
Welsh, as they replay Taveras misplaying the fly ball: "Don't make me watch that again"

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:30 PM
There's a gigantic difference between 200 feet throw being offline and misjudging a flyball. A big, big difference.


If you want to describe it that way. Or, objectively, you could say that Bruce made an unnecessary throw to third, threw it badly off line, and the runners wound up at second and third and both scored.

We all get used to it, but if you are a young Red from the farm system you can do no wrong around here. But a veteran from another club has a hard time getting any credit.

Taveras has been in a deep slump but he has played great defense this year. If a fly ball got over his head, it's a mistake, but it wasn't the only one that inning.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:30 PM
Taveras pops out to 2nd. There is no reason for Taveras to be starting over Dickerson.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:30 PM
Taveras with yet another pop up. Why does a guy that can't hit homers pound the ball into the air so much?

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:31 PM
I didn't think he had a legit shot. If I was wrong, fine. But I still stand by the fact that people have been waiting for the chance to pile on Taveras since day 1. I don't think he's a great player (not by a longshot), but I still think he was a good addition to the team...he's just struggling right now.He actually had a good shot if that throw was online Molina was out because he had stumbled coming around 2nd.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:31 PM
There's a gigantic difference between 200 feet throw being offline and misjudging a flyball. A big, big difference.

Of course there is...but there's also a big, big difference between any other player making a mistake and Willy Taveras making a mistake. At least on Redszone.

alloverjr
06-02-2009, 11:32 PM
Taveras with yet another pop up. Why does a guy that can't hit homers pound the ball into the air so much?

Not very good? It pains me to know that he's around next year too.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:32 PM
If you want to describe it that way. Or, objectively, you could say that Bruce made an unnecessary throw to third, threw it badly off line, and the runners wound up at second and third and both scored.

We all get used to it, but if you are a young Red from the farm system you can do no wrong around here. But a veteran from another club has a hard time getting any credit.

Taveras has been in a deep slump but he has played great defense this year. If a fly ball got over his head, it's a mistake, but it wasn't the only one that inning.
Except for the fact the throw wasn't unnecessary, and if it was on line Molina would have been out.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
I think Taveras pops out more than EE.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
Reyes coming in to pitch.

Cyclone792
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
I didn't think he had a legit shot. If I was wrong, fine. But I still stand by the fact that people have been waiting for the chance to pile on Taveras since day 1. I don't think he's a great player (not by a longshot), but I still think he was a good addition to the team...he's just struggling right now.

Willy T's OPS is now under .650, which is pretty close to being in line with his career OPS of .667. He's a bad player, always was and likely always will be. That April we all enjoyed was a mirage, just as most people figured it'd be.

As I said a month ago when people were salivating over his decent April, wait until August. Unfortunately, it was only wait until June.

SMcGavin
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
Of course there is...but there's also a big, big difference between any other player making a mistake and Willy Taveras making a mistake. At least on Redszone.

I don't know, if Dickerson made that same play I think he'd have gotten bashed pretty hard too. There may be some cases where Willy gets undeserved flak for small mistakes, but he earned the criticism this time because that was an awful play.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
No. One extra run scored as a result of the miscue. The next run scored because the pitcher threw two wild pitches.

Bruce's bad throw -- no problem.
Fisher's two wild pitches -- no problem.
Taveras' misplay in center -- different reaction.

Yes. :)
If he would have caught the ball...it would have been the 2nd out. The next batter struck out.....meaning they would have only scored 1 run. The wild pitches occurred after the inning should have been over.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:33 PM
He actually had a good shot if that throw was online Molina was out because he had stumbled coming around 2nd.

Ah...didn't catch the stumble. Thanks for clearing it up.

jojo
06-02-2009, 11:34 PM
So, everybody piles on Taveras, but nobody mentions the missed cutoff man by Bruce?

Don't get me wrong, it was a HORRIBLE play by Willy and he's been in a pitiful funk, but prior to the San Diego series...he was flat out solid IMO. Sometimes it seems like people have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on him....eagerly.

If you're talking about the play on Molina, Bruce has the arm to gun him down.

KoryMac5
06-02-2009, 11:34 PM
Taveras with yet another pop up. Why does a guy that can't hit homers pound the ball into the air so much?

He has slowly reverted back to his old form that he displayed in Colorado. Earlier in the year with the Reds when he was having some success he was on top of the ball and spraying some line drives. Now it seems he is under everything.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:35 PM
Wild pitch moves Dickerson to 2nd.

vaticanplum
06-02-2009, 11:35 PM
Taveras with yet another pop up. Why does a guy that can't hit homers pound the ball into the air so much?

Unfortunately, as it turns out, he's not very good at baseball.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:36 PM
Bruce pops out to 2nd. 5-2 Cards mid 7th.

VR
06-02-2009, 11:36 PM
Unfortunately, as it turns out, he's not very good at baseball.

why are you just now revealing this!!!

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:37 PM
I don't know, if Dickerson made that same play I think he'd have gotten bashed pretty hard too. There may be some cases where Willy gets undeserved flak for small mistakes, but he earned the criticism this time because that was an awful play.

Fair outlook. It was a horrible play...just irritates me when Reds fans jump on thier own players. And when that player does well, it's just dumb luck and he'll crash and burn soon enough. One of my pet peeves I guess. Constructive criticism...fine....bashing just for the sake of bashing...that rubs me the wrong way.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:38 PM
Dickerson is in center an inning too late.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:39 PM
Yes. :)
If he would have caught the ball...it would have been the 2nd out. The next batter struck out.....meaning they would have only scored 1 run. The wild pitches occurred after the inning should have been over.

And if Bruce throws out Molina, then there are three outs.
And if Arroyo retired Molina or Thurston, then there would have been three outs.
Etc. A lot of things happened to prolong the inning. But nobody but Fisher made the wild pitches.

Jay Bruce pops up to end the inning. Not his fault, tough pitch.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:39 PM
Burton in to pitch.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:40 PM
Rasmus strikes out swinging. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Pujols grounds out to short. 2 outs.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Burton looking sharp. Maybe he's trying to make Dusty & crew think twice about sending him down. Better late than never I guess.

2 k's and a Pujols groundout. 1-2-3. Nice.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Willy T gets more grief here than any other starter. Mainly because it was no surprise that he isn't very good in the field or at the plate. Some guys like Bruce get a pass because of his potential but his inability to control the strike zone is going to limit his upside. He looks likes Dunn Lite ... lower OBP, less HRs and less Ks.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:42 PM
Willy T gets more grief here than any other starter. Mainly because it was no surprise that he isn't very good in the field or at the plate. Some guys like Bruce get a pass because of his potential but his inability to control the strike zone is going to limit his upside. He looks likes Dunn Lite ... lower OBP, less HRs and less Ks.
Probably because he's the worst starter on the team....

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:42 PM
Wellemeyer strikes out swinging. A 1-2-3 inning for Burton. 5-2 Cards after 7.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:43 PM
Probably because he's the worst starter on the team....I'd say worst player on the roster

jojo
06-02-2009, 11:44 PM
Fair outlook. It was a horrible play...just irritates me when Reds fans jump on thier own players. And when that player does well, it's just dumb luck and he'll crash and burn soon enough. One of my pet peeves I guess. Constructive criticism...fine....bashing just for the sake of bashing...that rubs me the wrong way.

That is one of the dangers in assuming knowledge of the motives of others.... great gnashing of teeth over something that might not be true at all (i.e. the unobjective criticism of players)

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:45 PM
Kyle McClellan in to pitch

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:45 PM
Phillips grounds out to 3rd. 1 out.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:46 PM
Kyle McClellan in to pitch
typical larussa night, he starts playing the matchups earlier than any other manager in the game, I guess that is why they need 13 pitchers

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:47 PM
Hernandez grounds out to 3rd. 2 outs.

PuffyPig
06-02-2009, 11:47 PM
He looks likes Dunn Lite ... lower OBP, less HRs and less Ks.


Bruce is hitting HR's at a Dunn like pace.

And Bruce is doing it at an age when Dunn wasn't hitting 40 HR's.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:47 PM
That is one of the dangers in assuming knowledge of the motives of others.... great gnashing of teeth over something that might not be true at all (i.e. the unobjective criticism of players)

Something I'm probably very guilty of...but without face to face...hard to know everyones true intent. I try not to point fingers...just point out what it appears to be to me. I bite my tongue more often than not though.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:48 PM
Nix flies out to left. An 8 pitch inning. 5-2 Cards mid 8th.

Kc61
06-02-2009, 11:49 PM
I'd say worst player on the roster

How about the league? The world?

Taveras isn't a superstar but mostly he's been in a slump. It's a long season. He'll produce again like he did earlier in the season.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:50 PM
Ankiel doubles to left center.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:51 PM
Bruce is hitting HR's at a Dunn like pace.

And Bruce is doing it at an age when Dunn wasn't hitting 40 HR's.on a pace early in the season is not anything close to actually doing it.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:52 PM
Molina sacrifices the runner to 3rd.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:53 PM
Intentional walk to Thurston.

reds44
06-02-2009, 11:53 PM
How about the league? The world?

Taveras isn't a superstar but mostly he's been in a slump. It's a long season. He'll produce again like he did earlier in the season.
No he won't. Right now he's only slighty worse than he has been for his career.

flyer85
06-02-2009, 11:54 PM
Taveras isn't a superstar but mostly he's been in a slump. if by slump you mean putting up career average numbers then you can call it a slump. Willy has been his offensive stinky self that the back of baseball card said he was, not my definition of a slump. Regression to the mean has a powerful draw.

alloverjr
06-02-2009, 11:54 PM
How about the league? The world?

Taveras isn't a superstar but mostly he's been in a slump. It's a long season. He'll produce again like he did earlier in the season.

Maybe not the world...maybe. But to suggest that he'll produce any better than he has throughout his career is wishful thinking imo.

As a aprtial aside I've no idea why Baker didn't ride Dickerson's current OBA over Taveras coming back from some sort of leg injury.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:56 PM
Barden strikes out looking. 2 outs.

_Sir_Charles_
06-02-2009, 11:57 PM
No he won't. Right now he's only slighty worse than he has been for his career.

And you know he won't for a fact? Sounds like it.

He's in a slump. Plain and simple. Will he revert to the great form he had earlier? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't see him continuing to struggle like this for the remainder of the season. Despite what many here think...he's not a talentless lump of garbage. The kid does have some skills.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:58 PM
Nice play on the short hop by Rosales. 5-2 Cards after 8.

Reds Fanatic
06-02-2009, 11:58 PM
Gonzalez, Rosales and Hanigan due up

Reds Fanatic
06-03-2009, 12:00 AM
Ryan Franklin in to pitch

Reds Fanatic
06-03-2009, 12:02 AM
Gonzalez strikes out swinging. 1 out.

Reds Fanatic
06-03-2009, 12:02 AM
Rosales grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs.

Kc61
06-03-2009, 12:04 AM
if by slump you mean putting up career average numbers then you can call it a slump. Willy has been his offensive stinky self that the back of baseball card said he was, not my definition of a slump. Regression to the mean has a powerful draw.

So, in other words, every player puts up his career average numbers every season. Nobody ever gets better. Or worse. Jerry Hairston's season last year didn't happen.

It's a longer discussion, but I don't buy it.

Reds lose.

Reds Fanatic
06-03-2009, 12:05 AM
Hanigan lines out to center. Reds lose 5-2.

traderumor
06-03-2009, 12:08 AM
If I never saw "regression to the mean" used in a sentence again, it wouldn't be soon enough. It's become an explanation for everything.

jojo
06-03-2009, 12:08 AM
A consensus of projections systems thought Taveras would have a wOBA of roughly .300 (league average is .330) in '09 and be something like a neutral defender (+3 runs/150). He's almost exactly on track to do that (currently wOBA of .310).

In other words, an OPS= .660 is a very reasonable expectation for Taveras.

flyer85
06-03-2009, 12:10 AM
So, in other words, every player puts up his career average numbers every season. Nobody ever gets better. Or worse. Jerry Hairston's season last year didn't happen.

It's a longer discussion, but I don't buy it.

Reds lose.nice straw man. It is about mitigating risk and building your team based on what is MOST LIKELY to occur, not what could occur.

Taking a guy that couldn't hit in Colorado and hoping he will make a big leap forward in Cincinnati is a very low percentage play. Could it happen, sure it could but nobody is going to get rich by betting on it as a likely occurrence.

Players will likely throw in a career year a few times in their career but you sure don't want to count on it. And for Willy T to have any positive impact he has to put up a career type season.

jojo
06-03-2009, 12:10 AM
If I never saw "regression to the mean" used in a sentence again, it wouldn't be soon enough. It's become an explanation for everything.

I don't know if it explains why the sky is blue or where a zebra's stripes come from but it certainly explains why a player cant sustain production that is dramatically different than his true skill level barring injury.

Brutus
06-03-2009, 12:13 AM
A consensus of projections systems thought Taveras would have a wOBA of roughly .300 (league average is .330) in '09 and be something like a neutral defender (+3 runs/150). He's almost exactly on track to do that (currently wOBA of .310).

In other words, an OPS= .660 is a very reasonable expectation for Taveras.

Though I tend to agree Taveras is what he is, I do occasionally remind myself that projections are just that - projections. When push comes to shove, players still have to play the games. And while I do believe everyone has their own general skill level that they're likely to perform within, it would not be prudent to rule out the possibility that they can exceed those projections and expectations. Players do both incline and decline.

Now, again, I tend to think Taveras and other players will in fact regress to their normal performances. I just hate to deal in a world of absolutes.

flyer85
06-03-2009, 12:16 AM
Now, again, I tend to think Taveras and other players will in fact regress to their normal performances. I just hate to deal in a world of absolutes.it is not about absolutes but team buidling has to be about projecting likely outcomes. The Reds have seemed to subscribe to the Robert Falcon Scott(just read Last Place on Earth) school of forecasting.

VR
06-03-2009, 12:16 AM
And if Bruce throws out Molina, then there are three outs.
And if Arroyo retired Molina or Thurston, then there would have been three outs.
Etc. A lot of things happened to prolong the inning. But nobody but Fisher made the wild pitches.

Jay Bruce pops up to end the inning. Not his fault, tough pitch.


Right...but the only direct correlation was Tavaras...the others are all subjective.

alloverjr
06-03-2009, 12:18 AM
The Reds have seemed to subscribe to the Robert Falcon Scott(just read Last Place on Earth) school of forecasting.

and also that a fast guy has to lead off regardless off his OBP.