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View Full Version : The Reds have NO shot with Taveras



fewfirstchoice
06-03-2009, 12:39 AM
Playing everyday in CF. Gonzo is good on D but he brings nothing to the offensive side of the game. The Reds have to find someone to stick in CF everyday and a SS if they really want to make the playoffs.

roby
06-03-2009, 01:02 AM
Playing everyday in CF. Gonzo is good on D but he brings nothing to the offensive side of the game. The Reds have to find someone to stick in CF everyday and a SS if they really want to make the playoffs.

Taveras play (or lack thereof!) in center field was pathetic tonight. He should have run down the ball that fell in for a double and two rbi's. He seemed to be running slower...like he's not really over the hamstring injury. Gonzales should never bat anywhere but 8th.

mroby85
06-03-2009, 01:06 AM
Taveras hasn't been a problem at all this season. They just need Joey Votto back in the lineup, until he is, you aren't going to see much offensive production, especially with Bruce struggling the way he has lately.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 01:28 AM
Anyone who hits with a .660 OPS is a problem. Especially if they start every game and get the most at bats possible every game.

Not good.

Griffey012
06-03-2009, 01:53 AM
Taveras is the new Dunn on this message board. We are never gonna hear the end of the argument about him. And eventually we are going to have people begin to root for him to fail.

And I thought Dunn gone was going to be a little more peaceful around here.

Captain Hook
06-03-2009, 02:03 AM
The thing about Taveras is that if his ability to run isn't 100% he doesn't have much else to bring to the table.He should sit if there is even a sight chance that he can't run at full speed.Even at 100% Taveras is quickly becoming the outfielder I least like to see in the starting lineup everyday.

I wouldn't mind seeing more Dickerson and Nix in CF.

Captain Hook
06-03-2009, 02:07 AM
Taveras is the new Dunn on this message board. We are never gonna hear the end of the argument about him. And eventually we are going to have people begin to root for him to fail.

And I thought Dunn gone was going to be a little more peaceful around here.

I think that everyone could agree that even on a bad day Dunn was much more valuable than Taveras is now.Dunn was a big topic for much different reasons.Corey Patterson is maybe a little better comparison.

CesarGeronimo
06-03-2009, 07:04 AM
Willy looking like we expected among NL centerfielders -- bad

http://tinyurl.com/p93e9g

Redsnake
06-03-2009, 09:07 AM
The Reds need to find a CF with a 800+ OPS, avg close too .300 and has just a hint more power than Taveras, yet can still play good defense and steal bases. Let's see........ found him!!

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Stubbs%20%20CF&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=453211

schmidty622
06-03-2009, 11:16 AM
I have a question. If you took away Willy's 12 stolen bases and gave him 12 doubles instead of singles how does that effect his OPS? Not saying that I am not for exploring all options in improving center field, I am just curious as to how the extra base he gets from his speed effects the stat.

I would try and figure it out myself but I don't really know how, haha.

Edd Roush
06-03-2009, 11:22 AM
Taveras is the new Dunn on this message board. We are never gonna hear the end of the argument about him. And eventually we are going to have people begin to root for him to fail.

And I thought Dunn gone was going to be a little more peaceful around here.

To put Dunn and Taveras in the same sentence is an absolute insult to Dunn. Taveras has been a complete waste of money to this point and I'm starting to believe that Stubbs would do a better job every day against lefties than Taveras.

A .397 OBP in AAA has to translate to better than a .318 OBP in the majors.

bgwilly31
06-03-2009, 12:36 PM
A lot of this should be coming back on dusty for putting an injured player into the starting Lineup.


Taveras is obviously not over his hamstring and if he doesnt have his legs taveras is completely useless to this team.

pitcher7
06-03-2009, 12:38 PM
I would love for Stubbs to get an opportunity. For all this talk about Taveras covering so much ground and being a good defensive outfielder, he takes some suspect routes to the ball many times.

Stubbs has the speed and has always been promoted as a potential gold glover winner in center, just never had a consistent bat.

The Voice of IH
06-03-2009, 01:09 PM
Really guys? i honest;y have no problem with Taveras as a player, I just think that the Reds are not using him right. I would like to see him bunt more, attempt to steal once in a while. Defensively, him and Nix seem to be going pretty good right now?

With that said, the dumb ass play he made last night cost the Reds the game, so by no means is he perfect, and I would not mind seeing Dickerson out there every 4 or 5 days. But I am sticking with Taveras as my starter.

Slyder
06-03-2009, 02:44 PM
The Reds need to find a CF with a 800+ OPS, avg close too .300 and has just a hint more power than Taveras, yet can still play good defense and steal bases. Let's see........ found him!!

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Stubbs%20%20CF&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=453211

Stubbs has power POTENTIAL I'm not sure if 2 HRs and 16 2bs at AAA really constitutes a hint more power RIGHT NOW than Tavares. He is one of the guys that I felt could do the same job as Tavares when he was signed, but you dont know how a guy is going to react in the majors for the first time he could be Jeff Francouer or he could be Jay Bruce part duex. Right now like others have said if Tavares' legs arent there thats 90% of his value put some combination of Dickerson and Nix in CF with Hairston, Gomes, and the one not in CF in LF and then try Tavares when he is "over" the hamstring problem. Im still trying to stay optimistic over Tavares that if healthy he'd be closer to how he started but if his legs are hurt then rest him until he can run full speed.

If its something longer term to fix/rest and you need to DL Taveras then you call up Stubbs, Heisey, etc and give them sometime to show if theyre ready to stick and you go from there.

schmidty622
06-03-2009, 02:46 PM
The problem is we are paying Taveras too much money over two years for him to lose his job. Sad but true. Unless we can find a trading partner, which I don't think is likely, I think we're stuck with him.

Griffey012
06-03-2009, 02:54 PM
To put Dunn and Taveras in the same sentence is an absolute insult to Dunn. Taveras has been a complete waste of money to this point and I'm starting to believe that Stubbs would do a better job every day against lefties than Taveras.

A .397 OBP in AAA has to translate to better than a .318 OBP in the majors.

I am in no way comparing the abilities of Dunn and Taveras. I was comparing the extra attention they both get on this board as to whether they are good for this team or not. Believe it or not some believed Dunn was a problem on this team, as many believe Taveras is. I was simply stating that it gets a bit repetitive to have certain players under the microscope about their same certain stats. It would be Dunn and his OBS vs. defense and with Taveras it is his lack of OPS.

As I mentioned what it eventually turns into is that it seems more people would rather player A fail to back up there argument of player A being worthless for the team, then actually see Player A succeed.

Fon Duc Tow
06-03-2009, 03:22 PM
As soon as it started to rain, Dusty should have pulled Taveras.

A slick field is the best way to injure that hamstring again and that was why Taveras was tip-toeing out there.

I agree though, if he is even slightly injured he should not play because speed is all he brings to the table.

Caveman Techie
06-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Using OPS to grade Taveras is almost useless. It is a straw man argument, I could care less what his OPS is, however if you want to start talking about his OBP then you have a category that I care about in my leadoff hitter.

Edd Roush
06-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Using OPS to grade Taveras is almost useless. It is a straw man argument, I could care less what his OPS is, however if you want to start talking about his OBP then you have a category that I care about in my leadoff hitter.

I agree. This is why I am up in arms about a leadoff hitter with a .318 OBP who plays only average centerfield defense.

nmculbreth
06-03-2009, 04:32 PM
I have a question. If you took away Willy's 12 stolen bases and gave him 12 doubles instead of singles how does that effect his OPS? Not saying that I am not for exploring all options in improving center field, I am just curious as to how the extra base he gets from his speed effects the stat.

I would try and figure it out myself but I don't really know how, haha.

Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. When a player hits a double, they end up on second base 100% of the time whereas a single and a stolen base attempt will result in ending up on second somewhere around 80% of the time and sitting in the dugout the other 20% of the time. Add in the fact that there are occasions where the player in question doesn't end up stealing second until a batter or two later in the inning and it's not hard to realize that a single and a stolen base is not quite as valuable as an outright double.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 04:38 PM
Using OPS to grade Taveras is almost useless. It is a straw man argument, I could care less what his OPS is, however if you want to start talking about his OBP then you have a category that I care about in my leadoff hitter.

His OPS does matter and the fact that its at .640 kills this team no matter what his OBP is.

schmidty622
06-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. When a player hits a double, they end up on second base 100% of the time whereas a single and a stolen base attempt will result in ending up on second somewhere around 80% of the time and sitting in the dugout the other 20% of the time. Add in the fact that there are occasions where the player in question doesn't end up stealing second until a batter or two later in the inning and it's not hard to realize that a single and a stolen base is not quite as valuable as an outright double.

Good points, didn't really think about it that way.

defender
06-03-2009, 05:46 PM
It is somewhat unfair to judge a guy who is slumping. I think he is 5 for his last 36. Before that his was hitting close to .300 and his OBP was over .350.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 05:56 PM
Hes also about at his career averages. When he was hitting .300 he was on fire hitting in 14 or something straight, and batting .407 in that span of games.

Hes balancing out and playing like we should have expected him to.

Caveman Techie
06-04-2009, 10:45 AM
His OPS does matter and the fact that its at .640 kills this team no matter what his OBP is.

He is a LEADOFF hitter, I don't care how many extra base hits he gets, especially with his speed and ability to steal. So in my opinion using OPS to judge him is almost totally worthless. Just like if I wanted to judge him using RBI's, there is a guarantee of no one being on base for him to bat in for a large percentage of his at bats, so again it is a worthless argument.

Edd Roush
06-04-2009, 11:28 AM
It is somewhat unfair to judge a guy who is slumping. I think he is 5 for his last 36. Before that his was hitting close to .300 and his OBP was over .350.

Then it also must be somewhat unfair to judge a guy who is on a hot streak. Therefore, his .318 is as relevant as the .350. Either way a .350 is about average and his career norms say he is .330. That my friend, is ugly. While I am upset now, I will be 10x more upset if Stubbs ends the year at AAA with an OBP around .400 slugging around .450 and then Taveras starts over him opening day 2010 after coming off a 2009 season of OBPing .330. I guess the here and now, Stubbs would probably produce similar (yet IMO a little more power and much better defense) stats as Taveras, but next year I will be irate if Taveras is starting over Stubbs.

Edd Roush
06-04-2009, 11:29 AM
He is a LEADOFF hitter, I don't care how many extra base hits he gets, especially with his speed and ability to steal. So in my opinion using OPS to judge him is almost totally worthless. Just like if I wanted to judge him using RBI's, there is a guarantee of no one being on base for him to bat in for a large percentage of his at bats, so again it is a worthless argument.

His speed and ability to steal would be more relevant if he used the green light every time he is on first base. Especially considering the Reds' lack of a premier #2 hitter, I would have Willy steal within the first few pitches every time that he is on first base. Willy or Dusty simply have chosen against this plan of attack.

Caveman Techie
06-04-2009, 12:00 PM
His speed and ability to steal would be more relevant if he used the green light every time he is on first base. Especially considering the Reds' lack of a premier #2 hitter, I would have Willy steal within the first few pitches every time that he is on first base. Willy or Dusty simply have chosen against this plan of attack.

I disagree with you to an extent. Thats like saying that everytime the number 3 hitter gets a hit it HAS to be a double, or a homerun and he is never allowed to get a single.

Edd Roush
06-04-2009, 02:02 PM
I disagree with you to an extent. Thats like saying that everytime the number 3 hitter gets a hit it HAS to be a double, or a homerun and he is never allowed to get a single.

I don't see that analogy. All I'm saying is for Willy to maximize his value, he must try to steal bases more frequently. With the superb stealing percentage he had last year, it is clearly one of his greatest assets. Dusty as a manager needs to utilize his players assets. Therefore, it makes sense to send Willy more frequently.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 02:48 PM
He is a LEADOFF hitter, I don't care how many extra base hits he gets, especially with his speed and ability to steal. So in my opinion using OPS to judge him is almost totally worthless. Just like if I wanted to judge him using RBI's, there is a guarantee of no one being on base for him to bat in for a large percentage of his at bats, so again it is a worthless argument.

My point is his OBP isnt going to be good if hes OPSing in mid .600s so then it just creates another problem. Nothing good can from a .640 OPS.

demas863
06-04-2009, 11:40 PM
Taveras is the new Dunn on this message board. We are never gonna hear the end of the argument about him. And eventually we are going to have people begin to root for him to fail.

And I thought Dunn gone was going to be a little more peaceful around here.

No. He's Corey Patterson - exactly.