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Mutaman
06-03-2009, 04:00 PM
It is now official: With Darnell McDonald gone, Willy Taveras has officially become the Red Zoan whipping boy and the source of every problem in the world. Willy joins a list which has included Juan Castro, Jacob Cruz and Corey Patterson. Congradulations Willy.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 04:02 PM
I felt like I read this before.

Amazingly though Red Zoan does at least pick terrible players to whip.

Mutaman
06-03-2009, 04:36 PM
Amazingly though Red Zoan does at least pick terrible players to whip.

Just curious: Willy is hitting .260 with a .318 OBP. The Bruce is hitting .220 with a .296 OBP. And neither one can hit the frigging cutoff man. If Willy is so terrible, what does that make Bruce?

GIDP
06-03-2009, 04:41 PM
Just curious: Willy is hitting .260 with a .318 OBP. The Bruce is hitting .220 with .296 OBP. And neither one can hit the frigging cutoff man. If Willy is so terrible, what does that make Bruce?
:laugh:

Well I see this thread is going places. I'll bow out.

DTCromer
06-03-2009, 04:42 PM
Bruce was already anointed as the "Golden Boy" even before he came to the majors. Criticizing him is a capital offense as a Reds fan.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Jay is worse than Willy.

Mutaman
06-03-2009, 04:52 PM
Bruce was already anointed as the "Golden Boy" even before he came to the majors. Criticizing him is a capital offense as a Reds fan.

Agreed! And as a Red's fan, I won't criticize him (although Im starting to get a little impatient).


My point is that the Reds have a few more problems than Taveras and replacing Taveras in the lineup isn't going to change much.

Jefferson24
06-03-2009, 04:56 PM
Jay has 4 times the number of RBI's that Taveras has. So there is no need to continue comparing their numbers. Apples and Oranges my friends. Two different kinds of offensive players with very different roles. Both need improvement though. The difference is there is a hope for one of the two.

DTCromer
06-03-2009, 05:00 PM
Jay has 4 times the number of RBI's that Taveras has. So there is no need to continue comparing their numbers. Apples and Oranges my friends. Two different kinds of offensive players with very different roles. Both need improvement though. The difference is there is a hope for one of the two.

True, but my concerns over Jay are his walk/K rate and his ability to hit like Dunn w/ RISP.

Jay will be good, but not great.

GIDP
06-03-2009, 05:02 PM
this thread gets better with every post.

Mutaman
06-03-2009, 05:18 PM
The difference is there is a hope for one of the two.


Which one?

Mutaman
06-03-2009, 05:21 PM
Jay will be good, but not great.

My take: Jay could be great if he would just learn to let the game come to him and take what he is given (which Votto is so good at). On the other hand, Taveras would be a lot better if he would become more agressive.

jfar23
06-03-2009, 05:30 PM
There's no need to hate on Willy. He's as good as he's ever going to be. You cannot expect any better than what he is doing now. What people really hate is the fact that the front office made this choice.

kentjett
06-03-2009, 06:10 PM
What was Votto doing when he was 22 or Jay's age. Bruce is special and everybody knows that. He is close to leading the league in put outs and he is in the top ten in HR. He also plays a damn good right field. With that being said, he needs to be more selective at the plate inorder to get the pitches he needs to get his bat on the ball. I can live w/ Jay putting up the #'s he is while learning. Taveras has riched his peak and is nowhere near Bruce right now.

Natty Redlocks
06-03-2009, 06:21 PM
Agreed! And as a Red's fan, I won't criticize him (although Im starting to get a little impatient).


My point is that the Reds have a few more problems than Taveras and replacing Taveras in the lineup isn't going to change much.

Lots of people felt that Dickerson would be a better choice for CF than throwing money (which they needed for a LF) at Taveras. They were right.

Comparing Bruce to Taveras in any way just makes you look silly.

Ghosts of 1990
06-03-2009, 06:23 PM
You got me real excited with the thread title! Thought we were going after a big bat or Votto would be back at the beginning of this road trip.

On another note, I'm Bruce's biggest fan; I'm also probably one of his toughest critics. We should just ease up and just quit expecting so much from him. Myself included. He's 22 years old. He's being asked to carry a large amount of the load in a lineup that he is offered paltry protection. For the rest of the year I'm just going to take the approach when watching him that anything we get is a bonus. He'll get better. He is learning. He hasn't been as bad as his average suggests, not by a long ways.

mound_patrol
06-03-2009, 06:51 PM
You got me real excited with the thread title! Thought we were going after a big bat or Votto would be back at the beginning of this road trip.

On another note, I'm Bruce's biggest fan; I'm also probably one of his toughest critics. We should just ease up and just quit expecting so much from him. Myself included. He's 22 years old. He's being asked to carry a large amount of the load in a lineup that he is offered paltry protection. For the rest of the year I'm just going to take the approach when watching him that anything we get is a bonus. He'll get better. He is learning. He hasn't been as bad as his average suggests, not by a long ways.

Him being 22 is key. Everyone and their mother wanted Bruce up here as soon as possible, myself included, and we all ignored the fact that while bruce had an insanely high average in the minors he was K'ing a lot and not taking many walks. This guy has so much potential and I think he'll slowly develop more patience at the plate.

CesarGeronimo
06-03-2009, 07:17 PM
Just curious: Willy is hitting .260 with a .318 OBP. The Bruce is hitting .220 with a .296 OBP. And neither one can hit the frigging cutoff man. If Willy is so terrible, what does that make Bruce?

The difference here shouldn't be too difficult to understand. It's the age and potential of the two players. Jay Bruce is already a better player than Taveras because of his power (convenient how you left home runs and slugging stats out of your comparison), but if Jay doesn't improve a lot by the time he's Willy's age, 27, then I'll be criticizing Jay Bruce, too.

Taveras has demonstrated throughout his career that he's not a starting caliber centerfield, and he's showing that again this season. Jay Bruce looks like he'll become a good starting rightfielder, even though he has some things to work on. So I'm going to keep saying the Reds should replace Taveras as soon as possible and have patience with Bruce.

To me, Taveras isn't the new "whipping boy" because that phrase implies that as a player he doesn't deserve the criticism he's receiving. He, like McDonald, just isn't a very good player and isn't likely to become one. So he's going to be criticized here as long as the Reds choose to start him in centerfield and lead off their order with him.

Roush's socks
06-03-2009, 08:49 PM
Taveras is an "average" major league CF'er. He doesn't help the Reds, but he isn't the reason they lose games. He has scored quite a few runs and that is his job as a leadoff hitter. Now, if he continues slumping and ends the yearwith an OBP below .330 then he will be in the "below average" category.

I guess if it is true that the Reds could have signed a big LF bat for the same money and put Dickerson in LF, then I guess I see how Taveras was such a mistake. But my impression was that the legit LF'rs were all quite a bit more than his salary. Who is the great hitting LF'er that they could have signed for the same money as Taveras?

CesarGeronimo
06-03-2009, 09:08 PM
Taveras is not an average major league centerfielder. He is perhaps average defensively, but he is, and has been, one of MLB's worst starting centerfielders offensively. Here's where he currently ranks in the national league: http://tinyurl.com/p93e9g

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 01:24 AM
Sublty isn't all that appreciated here, is it. Lets sum up:

1. While Tavaras has been an early disappointment, to pile on the guy and blame him for what is wrong with this team is a bit rediculous. And yet many just jump on the scapegoat bandwagon, just like they did last year with Patterson.

2. Nobodys comparing Tavaras with Bruce. Don't be rediculous. But to jump on Taveras performance and forgive Jay's .220 average (excuse me, . 216) because he's "leading the league in putouts" is a bit absurd. Sorry, 22 or 32, we expected more. Moreover, the fact that he hasn't picked up the slack with Votto out is a real dissappointment.

3. Dickerson has yet to show he is an everday ballplayer. He is showing slight improvement and more confidence , probably because Dusty has the opportunity to ease him into things. But is anyone seriously arguing that we would have a better record with Dickerson as the everyday centerfielder?

Griffey012
06-04-2009, 01:32 AM
Sublty isn't all that appreciated here, is it. Lets sum up:

1. While Tavaras has been an early disappointment, to pile on the guy and blame him for what is wrong with this team is a bit rediculous. And yet many just jump on the scapegoat bandwagon, just like they did last year with Patterson.

2. Nobodys comparing Tavaras with Bruce. Don't be rediculous. But to jump on Taveras performance and forgive Jay's .220 average (excuse me, . 216) because he's "leading the league in putouts" is a bit absurd. Sorry, 22 or 32, we expected more. Moreover, the fact that he hasn't picked up the slack with Votto out is a real dissappointment.

3. Dickerson has yet to show he is an everday ballplayer. He is showing slight improvement and more confidence , probably because Dusty has the opportunity to ease him into things. But is anyone seriously arguing that we would have a better record with Dickerson as the everyday centerfielder?

I would say Taveras was an early surprise until his recent slump. He really needs to start driving the ball the other way again.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 01:46 AM
So in this thread I have taken away these 3 items

Taveras isnt bad enough to give crap to.

Bruce is awful if you think Taveras is terrible

Dusty Baker is the reason Dickerson is better than Taveras.

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 02:13 AM
So in this thread I have taken away these 3 items

Taveras isnt bad enough to give crap to.

Bruce is awful if you think Taveras is terrible

Dusty Baker is the reason Dickerson is better than Taveras.

Wrong:

Take this:

Taveras isn't the sole problem on the Reds and should not be scapegoated.

If you're going to criticise Taveras, you've got to criticise Bruce.

Dickerson playing everday instead of Taveras won't make this team better.

Now you can disingenuiously misphrase or rewrite that any way you want, but the basic points are simple enough to understand.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 03:40 AM
Dickerson for sure would be worse than Taveras? Thats what I get from the "won't make this team better" comment. You do realize hes actually walked more than Taveras has this year and in about 90 less Plate appearances. Dickerson would have to go 0-30 with no walks to get near Willys OBP. Thats how bad Willy T is right now. a guy could with out a hit or a walk for a week. He could go 0-10 and still have a higher slugging than Willy. Thats pretty bad. Just for the record the most PA Dickerson has gone in his career with out getting on base is 6.

Bruce isnt performing that great right now but atleast there are actual excuses and reasons that some of his numbers arent where we should expect or want them to be, although I'm guessing you dont want to hear them because hes batting .220, and apparently missed a cut off man or something. Taveras on the other hand is just being himself. Yes he should be viewed as a problem and yes hes going to get bashed and talked about. Bruce for as bad as you think he is hes still actually a above average player. Something Taveras has never been.

Natty Redlocks
06-04-2009, 06:21 AM
Dickerson for sure would be worse than Taveras? Thats what I get from the "won't make this team better" comment. You do realize hes actually walked more than Taveras has this year and in about 90 less Plate appearances. Dickerson would have to go 0-30 with no walks to get near Willys OBP. Thats how bad Willy T is right now. a guy could with out a hit or a walk for a week. He could go 0-10 and still have a higher slugging than Willy. Thats pretty bad. Just for the record the most PA Dickerson has gone in his career with out getting on base is 6.

Bruce isnt performing that great right now but atleast there are actual excuses and reasons that some of his numbers arent where we should expect or want them to be, although I'm guessing you dont want to hear them because hes batting .220, and apparently missed a cut off man or something. Taveras on the other hand is just being himself. Yes he should be viewed as a problem and yes hes going to get bashed and talked about. Bruce for as bad as you think he is hes still actually a above average player. Something Taveras has never been.

Amen bro. Taveras had a good month or so and some people haven't adjusted to the reality that he's still Willy Taveras. He's not killing this team right now but there's a very good chance he will be. Meanwhile Dickerson is looking better and better all the time, and there's no reason to think Bruce isn't just experiencing the expected growing pains.

flash
06-04-2009, 08:25 AM
I remember when he was in Houston one of the biggest gripes about him was his fielding. He does not pick up the ball well coming off the bat which negates some speed.

I was somewhat surprised when the Reds picked him up because they already had Hopper, who is nearly identical. The price was high also.

I think Dickerson will be a much better centerfielder. I know he had some fielding and hitting issues earlier this year but he has played centerfield well the past few games especially when he didn't have a play. Early in the game when Nix made a catch on a pop-fly he finished the play about five feet behind Nix which is exactly where he is supposed to be to back him up. Later when Nix made the running grab Dickerson was heading over fast, but with an inside track to back up the carom at the wall. Not like Freel, who might have tried to run over Nix.

Nix had a good game defensively, but even he had trouble with the crazy St. Louis cut it/ out, whatever.

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 09:06 AM
I start a post stating that its sort of inane the way RedZoaners blame Willy Taveras for all of the Reds problems (just like it was inane to blame scapegoat Juan castro) and that if your going to criticise Willy, its equally inane to give Bruce a free pass for the year he's having.

So whats the response: all the boys jump on Willy and give Bruce more excuses. Your Honor, I rest my case. Is this a great country or what.

DTCromer
06-04-2009, 09:34 AM
I start a post stating that its sort of inane the way RedZoaners blame Willy Taveras for all of the Reds problems (just like it was inane to blame scapegoat Juan castro) and that if your going to criticise Willy, its equally inane to give Bruce a free pass for the year he's having.

So whats the response: all the boys jump on Willy and give Bruce more excuses. Your Honor, I rest my case. Is this a great country or what.

Great post. Wily is just a whipping boy because he's "dusty's boy" and Jay is untouchable here. He's quickly becoming untouchable as Adam Dunn. Although I will admit I think Jay is much better for the clubhouse and he actually plays defense. That's his saving grace.

But it drives me nuts with some of his AB's. The guy has all the tools to be great. . . he just needs a better approach to the plate sometimes.

Look, we all know a leadoff hitter was our biggest need last year, IMO. We got an average/respectable one in Wily. He's a streaky guy and hits too many fly balls at times. But when he's on, he's great. Unfortunately, he's a little hurt right now and in a slump. He'd be better served to get 100%, sit on the 15 day DL and possibly calling up Stubbs or Hopper.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 09:50 AM
The thing is we dont have an average/repsectable one at all. the 1st 25 games he was willy taveras, then he had a 7 game stretch where he was hitting .500 pushed his OBP up to .382, and hes now just coming back to willy taveras career numbers.

You guys are ignoring the amazing hot streak he was on but want to act like hes just slumping. The guy is bad, and yes hes hurting the team more than any other starter on the roster right now.

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 11:12 AM
You guys are ignoring the amazing hot streak he was on but want to act like hes just slumping. The guy is bad, and yes hes hurting the team more than any other starter on the roster right now.

Nobody's ignoring anything. This thread isn't about Willy Taveras. This thread is about the reaction of Red Zoaners to Willy Taveras (and their comparative reaction to other Reds who are playing poorly).

mound_patrol
06-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Nobody's ignoring anything. This thread isn't about Willy Taveras. This thread is about the reaction of Red Zoaners to Willy Taveras (and their comparative reaction to other Reds who are playing poorly).

To compare Taveras and Bruce isn't fair. They have different roles. Taveras was brought in to be a leadoff hitter and get on base to set the table for others. For the most part he has faired miserably. Bruce on the other hand is here to drive in runs. While he hasn't met anyones expectations, he has put up pretty good power numbers.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Nobody's ignoring anything. This thread isn't about Willy Taveras. This thread is about the reaction of Red Zoaners to Willy Taveras (and their comparative reaction to other Reds who are playing poorly).

So who do you think is a problem for the reds? What does Taveras bring to the team that is a positive?

Caveman Techie
06-04-2009, 03:05 PM
So who do you think is a problem for the reds?

Joey Votto
Edwin Encarnacion
Edinson Volquez
Alex Gonzalez
Brandon Phillips

Don't get me wrong I'm not blaming these players, I'm saying these players having been hurt and missing games has been what the "problem" has been. This is an entirely different offensive team when you have Joey Votto and Brandon Phillips.

Has Tavares been a "good" player for the Reds, no not really. But he has been an average player that has been "good" at times, and bad at other times.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Taveras isnt even on your list haha.

Caveman Techie
06-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Taveras isnt even on your list haha.

Exactly the point!

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 04:00 PM
So who do you think is a problem for the reds? What does Taveras bring to the team that is a positive?

As soon as I get a little free time I will start a post entitled "What Mutaman thinks is a problem for the Reds." And I will include Taveras's performance thus far as ONE of the problems.

GIDP
06-04-2009, 04:52 PM
As soon as I get a little free time I will start a post entitled "What Mutaman thinks is a problem for the Reds." And I will include Taveras's performance thus far as ONE of the problems.

So we shouldnt bring up Taveras for his problems and discuss that hes not the best CF option on the team, one of the worst hitters, and getting tons of playing time and ABs? Should we bring back Josh Fogg? I mean he wasnt the only problem with last years team. What do you suggest people discuss on the board?

I'm having problems understanding why you view people saying how bad a player is as being a scapegoat. Sounds like people notice that hes not good and get tired of seeing him when they think/know their are better options.

Maybe you just get tired of hearing about it so you act like the posters are the bad guys. I really dont get why saying Willy Taveras is big problem is such a big deal.

Mutaman
06-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Maybe you just get tired of hearing about it so you act like the posters are the bad guys. I really dont get why saying Willy Taveras is big problem is such a big deal.

I feel your pain. Why don't you start a thread saying why Willy is a big problem? Maybe it'll make you feel better.

mlh1981
06-04-2009, 08:10 PM
Tavares was uncharacteristically hot in early May, and is now uncharacteristically cold. The real truth lies somewhere in the middle.