Braves acquire McLouth for 3 minor leaguers

[boognish]

per mlb.com, for prospects Locke, Hernandez, Morton


ATLANTA -- The Braves have acquired All-Star outfielder Nate McLouth from the Pirates in exchange for three highly regarded Minor League prospects.

A Major League source confirmed that the Pirates will send McLouth to the Braves in exchange for right-handed pitcher Charlie Morton, left-handed pitcher Jeff Locke and outfielder Gorkys Hernandez.

McLouth, who is hitting .256 with nine homers and a .470 slugging percentage this year, will likely serve as the Braves' everyday center fielder. The 26-year-old outfielder hit .276 with 26 homers and 94 RBIs last year.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090603&content_id=5127470&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Big Klu]

I don't know much about the minor-leaguers the Pirates received, but assuming that they are quality prospects, then this could be a very good deal for Pittsburgh. IMO, they are selling high on McLouth, who had a career year last season. This also allows the Bucs to move Nyjer Morgan to his natural CF position.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Okay, now THAT will change my pre-season prediction. I figured McLouth to be a big part of the Pirates this season. I still say they'll finish over the Astros though.

Anybody know anything about the 3 prospects? Morton's name looks familiar...as does Gorkys.

[Chip R]

Someone's selling early. Good to see McLouth out of the division.

[Mario-Rijo]

Okay, now THAT will change my pre-season prediction. I figured McLouth to be a big part of the Pirates this season. I still say they'll finish over the Astros though.

Anybody know anything about the 3 prospects? Morton's name looks familiar...as does Gorkys.

Morton's good, Hernandez is a Nyjer Morgan type of player, Speedy CF field type. Locke's name sounds familiar but not sure on him. This is just all off the top of my head though.

[Tom Servo]

So in the span of less than a year the Pirates traded away their 2008 outfield of Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, and Nate McLouth.

[LvJ]

That was a steal. Good move, Atlanta.

[jojo]

Hernandez is an interesting prospect who is holding his own in the Southern League offensively at 21 (he's a defensive speed burner) but the Braves were trading from surplus here given Schafer.

Charlie Morton is just an arm. He misses some bats but he misses the strikezone alot and as a righty, he's nothing special and really is more likely a middle reliever than a backend starter.

Jeff Locke on the other hand is an interesting arm who could be a middle of the rotation guy but he's quite a ways away from the majors.

McLouth is a legit above average major league hitter (about 15 runs above average over 600 PAs). Defensive metrics hate his defense but coaches and scouts beg to differ. McLouth has considerable value.

This trade was as much about the Pirates clearing playing time for their "future" (McCutchen) as it was about restocking the farm.

[KoryMac5]

The Pirates have been rebuilding since Bonds left town. I would imagine this move won't sit very well with the Pirate faithful as Nate was a fan favorite. Wondering if this move will open up the gates for more.

[HeatherC1212]

Someone's selling early. Good to see McLouth out of the division.

That's what I was thinking too. He always seems to give us trouble when we play the Pirates so I'm happy to see him gone.

[RedsManRick]

Kudos to the Pirates for trading a guy while he was at max value but wasn't going to help them win. This may or may not have been a great return, but now was the time.

[mbgrayson]

Braves prospect ratings for players in McLouth deal:

1. Charlie Morton, Not in BA top 30, played 16 games last year for Atlanta, 6.14 ERA, 1.62 WHIP.
2. Jeff Locke, BA Prospct #7, Sickels B-
3. Gorkys Hernandez, BA Prospect #4, Sickels B-

Pittsburgh at some point needs to draw a line and stop being in perpetual re-building mode. There is a radio snippet I have heard on the XM MLB channels several times where a Pittsburgh fan calls in and says that Pittsburgh is always a seller not a buyer, and that they have seven #7 hitters....so true. Makes the Reds look like the Yankees...almost. ;)

[traderumor]

So much spinning wheels for that organization. They've been trading away the few above average major leaguers they have at any point in time for the "future" since at least Aramis Ramirez. Oh, and then they'll blame the lack of attendance and small market for their woes.

[fearofpopvol1]

Hernandez is an interesting prospect who is holding his own in the Southern League offensively at 21 (he's a defensive speed burner) but the Braves were trading from surplus here given Schafer.

Charlie Morton is just an arm. He misses some bats but he misses the strikezone alot and as a righty, he's nothing special and really is more likely a middle reliever than a backend starter.

Jeff Locke on the other hand is an interesting arm who could be a middle of the rotation guy but he's quite a ways away from the majors.

McLouth is a legit above average major league hitter (about 15 runs above average over 600 PAs). Defensive metrics hate his defense but coaches and scouts beg to differ. McLouth has considerable value.

This trade was as much about the Pirates clearing playing time for their "future" (McCutchen) as it was about restocking the farm.

Not to mention, shaving salary. He signed a 3 year extension last year worth a cool $15M...a luxury for a team that isn't going to compete this year.

[WVPacman]

The Pirates have been rebuilding since Bonds left town. I would imagine this move won't sit very well with the Pirate faithful as Nate was a fan favorite. Wondering if this move will open up the gates for more.

My dad is a Pirates fan and when I told him about the trade he was'nt at all surprised b/c he is used to it.He started shaking his head and said that isn't a shock at all b/c I have seen the same thing over and over for 16 years and counting.Before I told him who they got back in the trade he said"I bet you they got prospect players or minor leaguers back did'nt they?I started laughing and said yep and he said that figures.

[Strikes Out Looking]

While McClouth wasn't going to bring a championship to Pittsburgh, I fail to see the direction that team is heading. You can't continue to trade away your best players and bring in prospects (especially marginal ones) and think you are going to be competitive.

The Pirates are the new St. Louis Browns-what will be interesting this summer is a team that perpetually gives up (the Pirates) will be fighting for the cellar (I hope) with a team that has an owner that never gives up (The Astros).

[JaxRed]

Hmmmm. making some salary room for the #1 pick?

[marcshoe]

And, of course, the Braves are coming into Cincinnati in two weeks.

I don't agree that this was a good move for the Pirates. This is just one more slap in the face of their fans. Anything that gives the team legitimate hope for the future goes away, and ownership keeps teasing the fans by telling them they need to focus just past the visible horizon.

[flyer85]

nice move by the Braves as they didn't give up anything that looks to be of great value. They have a need and may well have addressed it.

[IslandRed]

Kudos to the Pirates for trading a guy while he was at max value but wasn't going to help them win. This may or may not have been a great return, but now was the time.


Pittsburgh at some point needs to draw a line and stop being in perpetual re-building mode.

That's the rub, isn't it? RMR is absolutely right about McLouth being at peak value. He's 27, producing, and signed through 2011 for very reasonable money considering. That should have a great deal of value. So this may have been the right time to deal, but I'm not sure they made a good one. None of those players strike me as a cornerstone of the next good Pirates team either.

Mostly, by punting this season and by inference the two following ones, the Pirates seem to be making a blatant admission that the only way they're ever going to win is by beaching a whole team at once. That's possible but very difficult, and I have no idea how they expect to sell tickets in the meantime.

[jojo]

That's the rub, isn't it? RMR is absolutely right about McLouth being at peak value. He's 27, producing, and signed through 2011 for very reasonable money considering. That should have a great deal of value. So this may have been the right time to deal, but I'm not sure they made a good one. None of those players strike me as a cornerstone of the next good Pirates team either.

Mostly, by punting this season and by inference the two following ones, the Pirates seem to be making a blatant admission that the only way they're ever going to win is by beaching a whole team at once. That's possible but very difficult, and I have no idea how they expect to sell tickets in the meantime.

One thing about the Pirates ORG. It was about as barren a wasteland as possible when the new guys took over. They basically are still in "infuse the org with as much talent as possible at all levels" stage.

They're in a hole that won't allow a quick exit.

[vaticanplum]

Any value and long-term plans aside, God, it must suck to be a Pirates fan.

[Chip R]

I remember a thread on here from early last year or late in 2007 about how the Pirates philosophy was so much better than the Reds.

[vaticanplum]

I remember a thread on here from early last year or late in 2007 about how the Pirates philosophy was so much better than the Reds.

Yes, it's obviously served them well. They're on track to break a very special record this year. This move fits right into that, so they're sticking to their game plan. Good for them!

[Chip R]

Yes, it's obviously served them well. They're on track to break a very special record this year. This move fits right into that, so they're sticking to their game plan. Good for them!


They are probably saying, "Thank God for the Nationals."

It's sad to see what goes on over there. It's not like McLouth was costing them that much. Maybe the economy hit them especially hard and they had to get rid of a guy like McLouth. I know it's pretty improbable but I'd kind of like to see teams stick with a guy they signed long term for a little more than a year or two.

I'd just like to see them finally trade Jack Wilson out of the league. That dude just kills us.

[vaticanplum]

I'd just like to see them finally trade Jack Wilson out of the league. That dude just kills us.

but he looks so cool in Lite Brite.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/164395608_c9582c4624.jpg

[marcshoe]

They are probably saying, "Thank God for the Nationals."

.


Either that or, "Can the Penquins come back to win the Stanley Cup, and, btw, when do the Steelers start playing?"

[westofyou]

I remember a thread on here from early last year or late in 2007 about how the Pirates philosophy was so much better than the Reds.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63177

Also the Indians were lapping the Reds.... they just ate DeLuccia's contract this week and have a mess of a problem pitching wise.


Can the Penquins come back to win the Stanley Cup

No way.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Hard to feel sorry for Pittsburgh fans at all. The hapless Pirates are more than equalized by the obnoxious Steelers and Sidney Crosby and the Penguins.

[Falls City Beer]

Great move by the Braves--their pitching is unheralded but extraordinary this season; they're going to do nothing but continue to climb in the East, and will likely bury the much weaker-pitching Mets in no time; they might not catch the Phils, but I wouldn't count them out.

McClouth will help, no doubt, but the Braves would have surged regardless; this only heaps help on a vastly improving situation for Atlanta. Great, smart GM-ing.

Lot of teams jumping ahead of the Reds in terms of talent; does Jocketty white-flag it with the grand temptation of Harang and Arroyo? I love membengal's Harang for Taylor deal. But, of course, what the Reds *really* need is pitching, no?

[15fan]

Who will it be next? Adam LaRoche? Freddie Garcia? Jack Wilson? Paul Maholm? Ian Snell?

Stay tuned for the exciting continuation of one of MLB's longest running dramas: The Next Pirate Out Of Town.

[jojo]

Who will it be next? Adam LaRoche? Freddie Garcia? Jack Wilson? Paul Maholm? Ian Snell?

Stay tuned for the exciting continuation of one of MLB's longest running dramas: The Next Pirate Out Of Town.

Lets be fair, it's not like any of these guys are superstars-McClouth included- and the Pirates believe McCutchen can give them better production over time than McClouth and they are probably right.

What's the point of not using McClouth to infuse talent into their organization which talent-wise is lacking both depth and upside from the 25-man roster downward?

[Chip R]

but he looks so cool in Lite Brite.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/164395608_c9582c4624.jpg


They must really be in financial trouble if they are doing their scoreboard in Lite Brite now. ;)

[Krusty]

In Pennsylvania, this trade by the Pirates is just an indicator that football season isn't that far away. Once the Steelers start training camp, the Pirates will be forgotten in Pittsburgh

[vaticanplum]

In Pennsylvania, this trade by the Pirates is just an indicator that football season isn't that far away. Once the Steelers start training camp, the Pirates will be forgotten in Pittsburgh

I have Pittsburgh friends who are planning to travel the country as needed when the team's breaking of the losing record is imminent. They are so excited and feel they need to be there in person. Seriously. I guess everybody needs something to cheer for.

[Tom Servo]

but he looks so cool in Lite Brite.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/164395608_c9582c4624.jpg
That's the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

[_Sir_Charles_]

They must really be in financial trouble if they are doing their scoreboard in Lite Brite now. ;)

I'm going to tell my friend about that. He actually does alot of the scoreboard artwork for PNC and several other big stadiums (including the horseshoe). :O) I'll be sure to mention "lite brite" if that one was his. Hehe.

[Scrap Irony]

Follow me through this line of thinking:

Pirates look at their roster, their future possibilities, and what they've got on tap for the international market and free agents in Latin America, not to mention the monies for the draft.

They know they're short of talent in terms of today's roster. But it's not so short that they won't compete. With McLouth, LaRoche, et al, they may finish in fifth place rather than dead last. If lucky, they may slip by another team or two and finish just over or under .500. Virtually no shot at the playoffs, despite a pitching staff that is currently overperforming its projections by a pretty wide margin.

In the minors, meanwhile, Pedro Alvarez's situation is looking tenuous at best. Jose Tabata's looks downright depressing. That's their two top prospects at the moment and really the only two guys (aside from McCutchen) that even look all that promising as better than league average ballplayers.

In the lower minors, you've got more talent, like Alvarez, but no one tearing up any league, offensively or defensively. In fact, the Pittsburgh lower minors are the very definition of tools rather than production.

But the 2009 draft is just around the corner and the International Market also looks to be a spot where they can find some serious infusion of talent.

The problem is it's not enough talent. At least enough talent to truly turn the team around.

So what to do?

Tank the season.

Deal everyone who might be decent but will certainly be expensive. LaRoche? Gone. Hinske? See you. Sanchez? Later.

Grab as many prospects as possible, paying particular attention to those guys in the lower minors. Stockpile low and high A arms, bats, and gloves. Draft young. Sign the 16-year-olds from Latin America. Spend your major league budget at the lowest levels. Blow that cash searching for the next great superstar.

Then comes the coup de grace.

All of this is preamble to the master stroke, if you will. Because the Pirates will suck next season, they'll likely have which pick next year? The top one. And who is likely to enter said draft?

Bryce Harper.

He of the Ruthian promise.

Add Harper to Sano (the Dominican SS "Hanley Ramirez clone" they're in the top spot for and you've got two extremely young guys to truly build a team around.

Is it a risky plan? Youbetcha. No way of knowing the legitimacy of the prospects in question. No way of knowing if Harper, Sano, or any other prospect will pan out.

But it is a plan.

And, if I were a team like the Pirates, I'd be tempted trying it, I think.

[traderumor]

Great move by the Braves--their pitching is unheralded but extraordinary this season; they're going to do nothing but continue to climb in the East, and will likely bury the much weaker-pitching Mets in no time; they might not catch the Phils, but I wouldn't count them out.

McClouth will help, no doubt, but the Braves would have surged regardless; this only heaps help on a vastly improving situation for Atlanta. Great, smart GM-ing.

Lot of teams jumping ahead of the Reds in terms of talent; does Jocketty white-flag it with the grand temptation of Harang and Arroyo? I love membengal's Harang for Taylor deal. But, of course, what the Reds *really* need is pitching, no?Meanwhile, the Reds are in St. Looey winning 2 of 3.

[Krusty]

Follow me through this line of thinking:

Pirates look at their roster, their future possibilities, and what they've got on tap for the international market and free agents in Latin America, not to mention the monies for the draft.

They know they're short of talent in terms of today's roster. But it's not so short that they won't compete. With McLouth, LaRoche, et al, they may finish in fifth place rather than dead last. If lucky, they may slip by another team or two and finish just over or under .500. Virtually no shot at the playoffs, despite a pitching staff that is currently overperforming its projections by a pretty wide margin.

In the minors, meanwhile, Pedro Alvarez's situation is looking tenuous at best. Jose Tabata's looks downright depressing. That's their two top prospects at the moment and really the only two guys (aside from McCutchen) that even look all that promising as better than league average ballplayers.

In the lower minors, you've got more talent, like Alvarez, but no one tearing up any league, offensively or defensively. In fact, the Pittsburgh lower minors are the very definition of tools rather than production.

But the 2009 draft is just around the corner and the International Market also looks to be a spot where they can find some serious infusion of talent.

The problem is it's not enough talent. At least enough talent to truly turn the team around.

So what to do?

Tank the season.

Deal everyone who might be decent but will certainly be expensive. LaRoche? Gone. Hinske? See you. Sanchez? Later.

Grab as many prospects as possible, paying particular attention to those guys in the lower minors. Stockpile low and high A arms, bats, and gloves. Draft young. Sign the 16-year-olds from Latin America. Spend your major league budget at the lowest levels. Blow that cash searching for the next great superstar.

Then comes the coup de grace.

All of this is preamble to the master stroke, if you will. Because the Pirates will suck next season, they'll likely have which pick next year? The top one. And who is likely to enter said draft?

Bryce Harper.

He of the Ruthian promise.

Add Harper to Sano (the Dominican SS "Hanley Ramirez clone" they're in the top spot for and you've got two extremely young guys to truly build a team around.

Is it a risky plan? Youbetcha. No way of knowing the legitimacy of the prospects in question. No way of knowing if Harper, Sano, or any other prospect will pan out.

But it is a plan.

And, if I were a team like the Pirates, I'd be tempted trying it, I think.

Depends what the front office think of this Pirates' club and where they want to be three years from now. The last two years in regards to the Reds, we heard from Krivsky and Jocketty that this club wasn't that far off even though it produced another losing season in 2008. We questioned the offseason moves and on paper we would have said no way will this club will win with the likes of Lance Nix/Johnny Gomes, Hernandez and Taveras in the everyday lineup. Now you take Votto on the DL and a struggling Jay Bruce and this team continues to fight to win. How do you explain that compared to the previous eight seasons?

Sometimes there is more to it than just stats and names on a lineup card.

[traderumor]

Lets be fair, it's not like any of these guys are superstars-McClouth included- and the Pirates believe McCutchen can give them better production over time than McClouth and they are probably right.

What's the point of not using McClouth to infuse talent into their organization which talent-wise is lacking both depth and upside from the 25-man roster downward?Nothing wrong with it, except it doesn't appear that they received all that much talent and, most importantly, they have been using that reasoning on their fan base for years. Some are saying the prospects are OK, but no one seems to be going out on a limb to say the Pirates got a good return. I think it just becomes laughable year after year.

And yes, I fully realize that the Reds have their own demons, but I don't think anyone is legitimately arguing that the Reds and Pirates orgs. are equally horrible these days. The Reds are seemingly in the middle of the arduous process you describe, while the Pirates just can't seem to get the tires out of the mud.

[jojo]

Follow me through this line of thinking:

Pirates look at their roster, their future possibilities, and what they've got on tap for the international market and free agents in Latin America, not to mention the monies for the draft.

They know they're short of talent in terms of today's roster. But it's not so short that they won't compete. With McLouth, LaRoche, et al, they may finish in fifth place rather than dead last. If lucky, they may slip by another team or two and finish just over or under .500. Virtually no shot at the playoffs, despite a pitching staff that is currently overperforming its projections by a pretty wide margin.

In the minors, meanwhile, Pedro Alvarez's situation is looking tenuous at best. Jose Tabata's looks downright depressing. That's their two top prospects at the moment and really the only two guys (aside from McCutchen) that even look all that promising as better than league average ballplayers.

In the lower minors, you've got more talent, like Alvarez, but no one tearing up any league, offensively or defensively. In fact, the Pittsburgh lower minors are the very definition of tools rather than production.

But the 2009 draft is just around the corner and the International Market also looks to be a spot where they can find some serious infusion of talent.

The problem is it's not enough talent. At least enough talent to truly turn the team around.

So what to do?

Tank the season.

Deal everyone who might be decent but will certainly be expensive. LaRoche? Gone. Hinske? See you. Sanchez? Later.

Grab as many prospects as possible, paying particular attention to those guys in the lower minors. Stockpile low and high A arms, bats, and gloves. Draft young. Sign the 16-year-olds from Latin America. Spend your major league budget at the lowest levels. Blow that cash searching for the next great superstar.

Then comes the coup de grace.

All of this is preamble to the master stroke, if you will. Because the Pirates will suck next season, they'll likely have which pick next year? The top one. And who is likely to enter said draft?

Bryce Harper.

He of the Ruthian promise.

Add Harper to Sano (the Dominican SS "Hanley Ramirez clone" they're in the top spot for and you've got two extremely young guys to truly build a team around.

Is it a risky plan? Youbetcha. No way of knowing the legitimacy of the prospects in question. No way of knowing if Harper, Sano, or any other prospect will pan out.

But it is a plan.

And, if I were a team like the Pirates, I'd be tempted trying it, I think.

I think the key realization here is that there simply is not enough talent to turn their fortunes around yet. They need to be adding as much talent in as many places within the organization as possible. The current 25 man roster is really the least of their concerns. They need upside. They need depth. They need it at every level of the organization.

Sometimes you have to amputate an appendage to save the body. It ended up working out great for Steve Austin.

[Chip R]

I understand where you are coming from, Scrap, but this just keeps happening over and over and over again with them. Not even Tampa Bay had an all kids team when they went to the World Series last year. No veteran in his right mind is going to want to go to PIT unless they overpay. But they won't so there's the rub. There's no guarantee they will even sign their draft picks much less know if they will pan out. Take that Harper kid for example. If he's eligible for the draft next year, the Bucs wouldn't even have the first pick, the Nats would. At the point where they are drafting, these kids and their "advisors" are going to be asking for the moon and stars. Those kids may decide to go to college rather than play in the PIT organization.

A lot of people on here loved what the Bucs were doing because their owner came out and said, "This is our plan. We are going to do A, B, C and D and that is how we will turn the organization around." They lambasted the Reds because they kept their mouths shut about their plans. I'm not saying the Reds are the premier organization in MLB but you have to think that they are in much better shape overall than PIT.

[jojo]

I'm not saying the Reds are the premier organization in MLB but you have to think that they are in much better shape overall than PIT.

The Reds are in much better shape than the Pirates. That said, they were in better shape than the Pirates to begin with....

Neil Huntington was named the Pirates GM on Sept 25th, 2007. Their new FO has had 1 draft and two off seasons (but really weren't in a position to sign real plus talent) so far.

Knowing only what we knew then, who would've traded the Reds org for the Pirates org?

Basically the Pirates are trying to make a level grade before they even pour the foundation. No one is even delivering the wood to frame the structure yet.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The Pirates are moving in the right direction I think. They've got some solid young players and some promising young arms. They dealt McLouth at the right time IMO and they got a promising young CF with tools and 2 promising arms. Could they have gotten a better deal? It's "possible", but we'll never really know of course. They clearly weren't going to win this season and I'd say it's a veritible longshot for next season as well (even WITH McClouth), constantly replenishing the farm is the way to go for them especially when you've got talent close to ready to replace the exiting player. McClouth was definitely going to be expendable in the next year or so with McCrutchen coming up. Good move IMO.

[traderumor]

The rub with the Pirates plan is this: If they cannot pick the right player in the first place, what is the chance that they can develop what they do have, which is probably subpar talent in the first place?

There is no evidence that they can do either, and until that changes, the cycle will continue.

[jojo]

The rub with the Pirates plan is this: If they cannot pick the right player in the first place, what is the chance that they can develop what they do have, which is probably subpar talent in the first place?

There is no evidence that they can do either, and until that changes, the cycle will continue.

The "Pirates" have only had one draft and it wasn't one that suggested they couldn't evaluate talent.

[Jpup]

I remember a thread on here from early last year or late in 2007 about how the Pirates philosophy was so much better than the Reds.

I remember a thread talking about how dreadful Atlanta was going to be with only a couple of us giving them a chance in the East.

[traderumor]

The "Pirates" have only had one draft and it wasn't one that suggested they couldn't evaluate talent.Pardon me if the actions of the "Pirates" pass the duck test for still being the Pirates. What, do you have a whitepaper out discussing why these are now the "Pirates"?

[jojo]

Pardon me if the actions of the "Pirates" pass the duck test for still being the Pirates. What, do you have a whitepaper out discussing why these are now the "Pirates"?

I think it's kind of silly to use a decade and a half of history to inform the first year and a half of new ownership and a whitewashing of the FO from the very top to bottom.

This is especially so given the current regime basically inherited a nice stadium and a mascot (i.e. a "brand") to complement a mid-market payroll and one of the least talented pool of players in the majors from the 25-man roster down to rookie ball.

Like I said, they're basically in the preparing the ground to pour the concrete stage of building. It's kind of important context.

[traderumor]

I think it's kind of silly to use a decade and a half of history to inform the first year and a half of new ownership and a whitewashing of the FO from the very top to bottom.

This is especially so given the current regime basically inherited a nice stadium and a mascot (i.e. a "brand") to complement a mid-market payroll and one of the least talented pool of players in the majors from the 25-man roster down to rookie ball.

Like I said, they're basically in the preparing the ground to pour the concrete stage of building. It's kind of important context.Oh, so when I go to to a restaurant that says "under new ownership," yet they're serving the same crappy food that the old ownership was serving, I have to remember they just took over. How silly of me.

BTW, I got the context. Understanding the context doesn't require giving a free pass for same old same old.

[jojo]

Oh, so when I go to to a restaurant that says "under new ownership," yet they're serving the same crappy food that the old ownership was serving, I have to remember they just took over. How silly of me.

BTW, I got the context. Understanding the context doesn't require giving a free pass for same old same old.

The Pirates aren't the same old same old though. They seemingly got less than a lot of people expected for McClouth. We have no idea what they could have gotten but we do know that they got players with value-both Hernandez and Locke would be welcome additions to the Reds system for instance.

We also know that the Pirates have invested heavily in their player development and scouting system including big investments in Latin America.

The Pirates are actually spending money and acquiring talent. They're just not dumping it on a 25 man roster where it ($) would be more conspicuous (and presumably wasteful as well).

Even McClouth's contract extension suggest the Pirates are capable of good management given it bought him out at reasonable rates.

I just don't think the narrative of more of the same is really all that appropriate.

[_Sir_Charles_]

McClouth's replacement did rather well in his MLB debut.

Andrew McCutchen (CF and leadoff) 2 for 4, 3 runs scored, 1 RBI, 1 BB, 1 SB, and managed to see 19 pitches (most for the pirates).

[traderumor]

The Pirates aren't the same old same old though. They seemingly got less than a lot of people expected for McClouth. We have no idea what they could have gotten but we do know that they got players with value-both Hernandez and Locke would be welcome additions to the Reds system for instance.

We also know that the Pirates have invested heavily in their player development and scouting system including big investments in Latin America.

The Pirates are actually spending money and acquiring talent. They're just not dumping it on a 25 man roster where it ($) would be more conspicuous (and presumably wasteful as well).

Even McClouth's contract extension suggest the Pirates are capable of good management given it bought him out at reasonable rates.

I just don't think the narrative of more of the same is really all that appropriate.That'd be a great piece for the "Pirates" mlb.com story on the deal. Perhaps you should submit it, Pollyanna.

[jojo]

That'd be a great piece for the Pirates mlb.com story on the deal. Perhaps you should submit it, Pollyanna.

The Pirates have invested in a top notch facility "down south", spent heavily on draft picks, and traded for several players that are now ranked highly in their system. Where are the overly optimistic inaccuracies in the comment you've dismissed so casually?

[mth123]

The Pirates situation calls for them to do exactly what they are doing. Its just in dealing Bay, Nady, McClouth etc over the last couple years, I'm not sure they got anyone who projects to be more valuable than the guys they dealt. I'd have held out for more or just kept McClouth as part of the plan for the future. He'd probably look pretty good in RF for the next three of four years.

[REDREAD]

So much spinning wheels for that organization. They've been trading away the few above average major leaguers they have at any point in time for the "future" since at least Aramis Ramirez. Oh, and then they'll blame the lack of attendance and small market for their woes.

Yeah, one of the few franchises that has screwed their fans worse than Cincy over that past 10-12 years.

[traderumor]

The Pirates have invested in a top notch facility "down south", spent heavily on draft picks, and traded for several players that are now ranked highly in their system. Where are the overly optimistic inaccuracies in the comment you've dismissed so casually?
That those things will somehow improve their ability to recognize and sign top talent, then develop it if they do happen to get better at picking it. I don't think "build it and they will come" works in drafting, signing and developing talent.

Going back to my original restaurant analogy, you are saying that new ownership has remodeled, is exploring once neglected areas of the business, and has hired new chefs, cooks, and other assorted staff. Yet, here comes my peanut butter and jelly sandwich, which was the specialty of house before the new owners came in.

I will gladly order and eat the crow sandwich when there is reason to. Right now, I apparently do not possess the microscope that you do to see what is going on in the petri dish.

[jojo]

That those things will somehow improve their ability to recognize and sign top talent, then develop it if they do happen to get better at picking it. I don't think "build it and they will come" works in drafting, signing and developing talent.

Going back to my original restaurant analogy, you are saying that new ownership has remodeled, is exploring once neglected areas of the business, and has hired new chefs, cooks, and other assorted staff. Yet, here comes my peanut butter and jelly sandwich, which was the specialty of house before the new owners came in.

I will gladly order and eat the crow sandwich when there is reason to. Right now, I apparently do not possess the microscope that you do to see what is going on in the petri dish.

It's pretty simple really. All I'm saying is that the Pirates' brain trust has underwent dramatic change in the last year and a half. They shouldn't be judged by the 16 years that preceded their tenure especially when they are making substantial changes in important parts of their operation that frankly was inherited as a barren wasteland.

You can choose to ignore process if you wish but don't characterize looking deeper as a pejorative especially when looking deeper is important for understanding the Pirates' motivations. Incidentally, this isn't secret info. It's all just a google away so frankly, the microscpope/preti dish metaphor is weak.

[traderumor]

It's pretty simple really. All I'm saying is that the Pirates' brain trust has underwent dramatic change in the last year and a half. They shouldn't be judged by the 16 years that preceded their tenure especially when they are making substantial changes in important parts of their operation that frankly was inherited as a barren wasteland.

You can choose to ignore process if you wish but don't characterize looking deeper as a pejorative especially when looking deeper is important for understanding the Pirates' motivations. Incidentally, this isn't secret info. It's all just a google away so frankly, the microscpope/preti dish metaphor is weak.

So, the fact that they're still serving peanut butter sandwiches in this same restaurant as their specialty, even though you are telling me great things are going on behind the scenes in the kitchen, and there are things written on the internet about this great behind the scenes cooking, I'm supposed to think that there is something different and special about this peanut butter sandwich I was just served? Certainly the "Pirates" have a marketing job for you.

BTW, you may not like the metaphor, but it is really no different than your construction analogy. You are looking at something in the very earliest stages of development and claiming that the foundation is going to be a swanky motel, when it could just turn into a low end retail strip mall, all of which is contingent on the developer, who is building in a location that has failed developer after developer in the last 20 years.

[lollipopcurve]

The Pirates aren't the same old same old though. They seemingly got less than a lot of people expected for McClouth. We have no idea what they could have gotten but we do know that they got players with value-both Hernandez and Locke would be welcome additions to the Reds system for instance.

Not sure about Hernandez. No power. He'd likely be the 4th best CF in the Reds system (and where does he fit with the Pirates?). Locke, sure -- but he's in A ball and it's not like he's been dominant. McLouth was an All-Star last year and he's signed for multiple years. Good chance the best guy they got was Morton, and his ceiling may not go beyond a #4. For a young major league All-Star, this looks like a thin return to me.


The "Pirates" have only had one draft and it wasn't one that suggested they couldn't evaluate talent.

So, where is the evidence they evaluated well? I realize it's too soon to be casting a final judgment, but the returns so far are decidedly iffy:

1. Pedro Alvarez, #2 choice in the country -- Near signing snafu, bailed out by Commissioner's Office. Alvarez has reported out of shape and gone on to underwhelm at high A: .240/.344/.448.

2. Scheppers -- Failed to sign, no compensation in this year's draft.

3. Jordy Mercer, college SS -- .231/.288/.359 in high A

4. Chase D'Arnaud, college SS -- Doing well. .811 OPS in low A

5. Justin Wilson, college P -- 7.13 ERA, 10 HR in 41 IP in high A

6. Robbie Grossman. High school OF -- .714 OPS in low A, 69 Ks in about 200 plate appearances.

Not pretty so far.

[jojo]

2. Scheppers -- Failed to sign, no compensation in this year's draft.

I think the Pirates have the last supplemental pick in the first round (49th overall) as compensation for Scheppers. Take it for what it's worth but there is talk that Scheppers might go very high in the first round next week.

The point with Alverez was that regardless of his A ball numbers (which I don't think are really that meaningful), scouts think he has the legit potential to be an exceptional major leaguer. So this wasn't a Moskos/Weiters repeat but rather a legit target that they did what it took to sign.

[lollipopcurve]

I think the Pirates have the last supplemental pick in the first round (49th overall) as compensation for Scheppers. Take it for what it's worth but there is talk that Scheppers might go very high in the first round next week.

You're right -- my mistake. They'll get a supplemental pick this year for failing to sign him. You could say their failure to sign him was a result of not collecting/analyzing his health information properly. When they drafted him, he was already hurt. Not like they didn't/couldn't know what they were getting into.


The point with Alverez was that regardless of his A ball numbers (which I don't think are really that meaningful), scouts think he has the legit potential to be an exceptional major leaguer. So this wasn't a Moskos/Weiters repeat but rather a legit target that they did what it took to sign.

Hard to do worse than Moskos/Wieters. We'll see on Alvarez. He was costly, that's for sure. Early returns are favoring several other college bats taken in the top half of round 1 last year. Factor in the conditioning/health (gimpy knees) issues, and my guess is that the Pirates are just a tad nervous about that investment right now.

[westofyou]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09156/975273-63.stm

McLouth trade brings clubhouse backlash
Players question Pirates' management after latest jettisoned All-Star

In one corner of the Pirates' clubhouse at PNC Park, the small, circular metal table between the stalls of relievers Sean Burnett and Jesse Chavez had a candle lit atop it, adorned by the No. 13 of Nate McLouth and an accompanying photo of him in full uniform.

A bit dramatic?

Not by design: McLouth was that duo's card-playing partner on that table, and he was, of course, traded Wednesday night to the Atlanta Braves for three prospects. There almost always was a candle there.

"We'll miss him," Burnett said.

The reaction in other corners was far more pointed.

"There ain't a guy in here who ain't [ticked] off about it," first baseman Adam LaRoche said. "They might be trying to hide it or whatever, but ... hey, you get a guy's loved by everybody, not just in this clubhouse but in the community, who does everything you could want a guy to do, a perfect guy to be a leader ..."

LaRoche paused.

"It's kind of like being with your platoon in a battle, and guys keep dropping around you. You keep hanging on, hanging on, and you've got to figure: How much longer till you sink?"

He flicked his hand.

"It's fine. Heck with it. We're not the GM. We don't run the team. If they feel like it's the best move for three or four years from now, great. Unfortunately, that does me no good. I've still got to be in here telling guys it's going to be fine with Nate gone. Well, you can only do that for so long until guys just kind of ... well, they know."

LaRoche, along with utilityman Eric Hinske and McLouth, were the players who spoke at that players-only meeting last month in New York, clearly establishing themselves -- and injured catcher Ryan Doumit -- as the team's leaders.

LaRoche hardly was alone.

"Wow," second baseman Freddy Sanchez said of his reaction to the trade. "I think the biggest thing was the shock factor. It's obviously a tough pill to swallow. Our No. 3 hitter just got taken away, the guy who leads our team in home runs and RBIs, and we were 6 1/2 games out. We could still have been right there. I think we still can. But we're all just kind of wondering right now ... wondering what it is."

Sanchez was asked when the future might finally arrive in Pittsburgh.

"I don't know. You're going to have to ask them."

Some were more reserved.

"You know it's a business, and I trust this front office to make the right moves," outfielder Nyjer Morgan said. "But sure, for now, it stinks."

Others declined to comment on the record but used strong language to express their feelings. Most of the ire was aimed at the loss of McLouth, particularly because the Pirates had just signed him to a three-year extension worth $15.75 million, but some also pointed to what they felt was a dubious return: The three prospects -- outfielder Gorkys Hernandez and pitchers Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke -- were not among the top three in Atlanta's system.

"You make a deal for a player like that, and you'd better get at least one elite guy in return," one veteran said. "Who's the guy in this trade? Who is that player?"

Manager John Russell, in open acknowledgement of this environment, summoned players into his office -- in small groups or as individuals -- to exchange views on the trade. When outfielders Jason Bay and Xavier Nady were traded last summer, general manager Neal Huntington addressed the collective team, but Huntington is in Bradenton, Fla., preparing for the draft.

Russell was adamant, as Huntington and team president Frank Coonelly were the night of the trade, that the Pirates are focused on winning.

"We know moves like this are going to be made, and we stand behind them because we know they're going to make us better in the long term," Russell said.

He also made clear that, while he understood the players' dismay, his tolerance would be limited.

"The players lost a friend, a teammate and a good player," Russell said. "They might be thinking that we've thrown in the towel, but it's time to turn the page and play baseball. It's time to move on."

That was before the Pirates took the field for their 11-6 rout of the New York Mets.

"I thought the guys responded very well," Russell said afterward. "They still know we have some things to accomplish here. They went out and played very good baseball today."

According to Burnett, victory was vital under the circumstance: "I can't imagine what this place would have been like if we hadn't won."

Heightening the atmosphere early yesterday was that McLouth stopped by the clubhouse in the morning to collect his belongings before flying to join the Braves in time for their game last night in Atlanta. He embraced several teammates, then became emotional as he spoke to a group of media, a tear welling up in his left eye at one point.

"This blindsided me, obviously," McLouth said in a quieter moment later. "Last year, you saw those trades coming. We knew those were going to happen, and that wasn't the case with me. I don't know. As excited as I am for a new venture, I was drafted by the Pirates. This was my 10th year in the organization. There were a lot of people I got to know well. And the toughest part, really, is that I wanted to win here. This organization is such a big part of me."

And what about his opportunity with the perennially contending Braves?

"It's a new chapter, as I've said, but ... I wanted to win here."

McLouth was asked if he could understand how some in the Pirates' fan base question whether the team is serious about winning.

"I think so," he replied. "I don't think that's an illogical thing for people to be thinking based on some of the things that have happened. It's ... it's just a tough day."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09156/975273-63.stm#ixzz0HZIXEeNy&D

[traderumor]

That story reminded me of the players' reaction to the Reitsma trade. I hope Adam LaRoche is renting ;)

[lollipopcurve]

I remember that when I first got on this board several years ago people were praising the Pirates for having a plan. It was expected the plan would lead to having a winning major league club before long. Well, here we are with an alienated major league clubhouse, dubious returns on 3 big trades and a "skeptical glances at the scouting director" 2008 draft.

KInd of reminds me of Spinal Tap's "new direction."

[westofyou]

KInd of reminds me of Spinal Tap's "new direction."

“I told them once, I told them 100 times, put Spinal Tap first and Puppet Show last.

[traderumor]

Pirates Talk Extensions With Sanchez & Wilson
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 17, 2009 at 12:31am CST]
It looked like the Pirates might trade Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson away this month, but Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says the team wants to keep its double play combination together for years. The Pirates approached Sanchez and Wilson, who are close friends, about extending their current deals.

It appears unlikely that one of the two would sign an extension without the other. The timeline for the deals is short, since the Pirates will need time to shop the pair if they don't extend them.


Both players sound excited about deals that would keep them in Pittsburgh for years. Wilson's current contract guarantees him $7.4MM this season, and the Pirates have the option of paying him more next year or buying him out for $600k. Wilson, 31, said he's open to taking a paycut.


Sanchez will likely see his $8MM option vest next year, but he's open to restructuring it.


GM Neal Huntington says he's not looking to trade all his players, but is "more open" to dealing impending free agents. He doesn't mention John Grabow and Adam LaRoche by name, but both are set to become free agents after the season. The Pirates are discussing Ian Snell with other teams.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/pirates-talk-extensions-with-sanchez-wilson.html

So, the times they are a-changing? These are the Pirates, not the "Pirates," just like the "Reds" are the Reds. Why do these two organizations keep doing stupid stuff? Most people try to get out of the basement, the Pirates and Reds seem to have removed the basement floor and just keep on trying to dig deeper down in.

[Chip R]

GM Neal Huntington says he's not looking to trade all his players, but is "more open" to dealing impending free agents.

Of course he's not looking to trade all his players. Just the expensive ones. Thank God for the Pirates.

[blumj]

I saw Ian Snell pitch against the Pawsox last night, on tv. He looked good, although the Pawsox offense isn't much of a test.

[traderumor]

Of course he's not looking to trade all his players. Just the expensive ones. Thank God for the Pirates.Seriously, now you see why the rich owners did not want to give welfare payments to the low revenue teams. Low revenue doesn't have to equate to stupid, but it seems to be following that way. Small market now also apparently means small minds.

[Chip R]

Seriously, now you see why the rich owners did not want to give welfare payments to the low revenue teams. Low revenue doesn't have to equate to stupid, but it seems to be following that way. Small market now also apparently means small minds.


Believe me, I'm no big fan of the owners but I have to admit the big market owners have a great point on that. BP had a formula about 5 years or so ago that equated revenue sharing with actually putting together a decent team.

[traderumor]

I saw Ian Snell pitch against the Pawsox last night, on tv. He looked good, although the Pawsox offense isn't much of a test.I have seen reference to his "terrible" contract. What does that entail?

He might be a "change of scenery" type, he has a good live fastball and always had flashes of being good, if the contract is not too horrible, might be worth giving the Pirates a B prospect.

[blumj]

I have seen reference to his "terrible" contract. What does that entail?

He might be a "change of scenery" type, he has a good live fastball and always had flashes of being good, if the contract is not too horrible, might be worth giving the Pirates a B prospect.

Looks relatively harmless to me, Cot's has him down for $3M in '09 and $4.25M in '10, with team options in '11 for $6.75M, and '12 for $9.25M, and I don't see any buyout listed.

[lollipopcurve]

If I'm a Pirates fan, I'm not analyzing this trade too closely right now. Morton's hurt, and the numbers for Hernandez and Locke are wafting an unwelcome odor.

[Jpup]

Tavares for Snell?

[traderumor]

Looks relatively harmless to me, Cot's has him down for $3M in '09 and $4.25M in '10, with team options in '11 for $6.75M, and '12 for $9.25M, and I don't see any buyout listed.Agreed, he is obviously out of favor there, but I think he has shown that he has a major league arm.

[traderumor]

Pirates Ask Wilson, Sanchez To Take Pay Cuts

Both Dejan Kovacevic of The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and John Perrotto of PiratesReport.com are reporting that the Pirates asked Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez to take sizable pay cuts when they presented them with contract extension offers yesterday. Wilson, who is making $7.25MM this year, was offered a two year deal plus a club option. Financial terms aren't known, but the offer reportedly includes a significant pay cut. Perrotto says the club has already privately decided to buy out Wilson's $8.4MM option for 2010 for $600k.

Sanchez, who is only 252 plate appearances away from having his $8MM option for 2010 vest, was offered a two year deal worth around $10MM. The extension reportedly seeks forfeiture of that 2010 option as well. Kovacevic says that he feels the team is "most interested in securing Wilson and trading Sanchez."

The Pirates have given both players a small window of opportunity to accept the deals, as they want to have as much time as possible to work out trades should the players reject the offers, according to Rob Biertempfel of The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review.

"This is something that needs to be resolved quickly, one way or the other," general manager Neal Huntington said Friday. "If there isn't common ground, I think we'll know pretty quickly. We can't let it linger and inhibit the trade process."

"Instead of trading and wondering what could've been, we decided to step forward and see if there's something that could be done to keep them here," Huntington said.

"If a perfect world, we bring them both back under contracts that are favorable to them and favorable to us. But if we get one, then we get one. If we can't either, we can't get either."

Biertempfel echoes what FoxSports.com's Jon Paul Morosi wrote yesterday, that the team might be making lowball offers that Wilson and Sanchez have no choice but to reject just to they can come back and say they tried to extend them before making a trade. The team was heavily criticized when they traded Nate McLouth and Nyjer Morgan in separate deals earlier this year.


I bet Jack and Freddie are feeling the love. The funny part of it is that because of their relative worth, they ought to call the team's bluff and take the lower offers because it is probably more than they would get on the open market. And I cannot imagine them allowing Sanchez' option to vest, regardless of the PR disaster, in the name of it couldn't get any worse.

[CTA513]

I wouldn't take a pay cut to stay on a bad team.

[Highlifeman21]

Tavares for Snell?

Why on Earth would the Pirates want The Virus?

[Highlifeman21]

I bet Jack and Freddie are feeling the love. The funny part of it is that because of their relative worth, they ought to call the team's bluff and take the lower offers because it is probably more than they would get on the open market. And I cannot imagine them allowing Sanchez' option to vest, regardless of the PR disaster, in the name of it couldn't get any worse.

So you're saying that the FO will find a way to make sure Sanchez doesn't get those 252 PAs?

Sounds like inter-organization collusion to me.

Manager sits Sanchez to make sure he doesn't get too many PAs?

[traderumor]

So you're saying that the FO will find a way to make sure Sanchez doesn't get those 252 PAs?

Sounds like inter-organization collusion to me.

Manager sits Sanchez to make sure he doesn't get too many PAs?Yup, if they're indeed making lowball contract extension offers to paint the picture of "hey, we're trying," then why would they let a $10M option kick in that they have control over as well? Stupid is as stupid does, I imagine it will extend to this issue as well.

[Jpup]

The Pirates yesterday pulled back their contract extension offers to Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez and, though they remain open to new negotiations, there was no indication any are forthcoming. "That time has come and gone," general manager Neal Huntington said of the offers' lifespan. "They feel like we're awfully light both in years and dollars. In our minds, the conversations are at a standstill." Neither of the player's agents, Page Odle for Wilson and Paul Cobbe for Sanchez, has responded with a counter-offer after each player rejected the team's initial offer late Friday, though Wilson's rejection was not as emphatic as Sanchez's. Wilson's offer was for two years and $8 million, plus a club option for 2012. Sanchez's was for two years and $10 million, plus the voiding of his existing 2010 vesting option that could pay him $8 million. -- Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

[flyer85]

WHen I heard about that the Pirates were going to offer extensions to Sanchez and Wilson my first thought was that it was nothing more than a PR ploy. After seeing the numbers it seems to me that the Pirates were not really interested in coming to an agreement but were trying to be ab le to win the PR battle when they move them.

[lollipopcurve]

Seems to me the Pirates have a PR nightmare spinning out of control. The more they do, the worse it gets.

[Chip R]

WHen I heard about that the Pirates were going to offer extensions to Sanchez and Wilson my first thought was that it was nothing more than a PR ploy. After seeing the numbers it seems to me that the Pirates were not really interested in coming to an agreement but were trying to be able to win the PR battle when they move them.


Pirates fans should be able to see right through that ploy. I really feel bad for them. But as long as the Bucs keep on doing what they are doing, the Reds are not the laughing stock of the NL Central.

[RedsManRick]

How dare the Pirates offer players contracts at what they're worth in the market. I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them end up getting less money than the Pirates offer. Sanchez is Jeff Keppinger with regular playing time and Wilson is Royce Clayton Jr.

I'm sure the Pirates were legitimately interested in keeping those two around, just not while overpaying them to be there.

[traderumor]

How dare the Pirates offer players contracts at what they're worth in the market. I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them end up getting less money than the Pirates offer. Sanchez is Jeff Keppinger with regular playing time and Wilson is Royce Clayton Jr.

I'm sure the Pirates were legitimately interested in keeping those two around, just not while overpaying them to be there.If that is all they were doing, but I think any reasonable person can see what they are doing with the lowball extension offers that were quickly rescinded. These contracts weren't offered in the vaccuum you created above.

[flyer85]

I'm sure the Pirates were legitimately interested in keeping those two around... they really shouldn't be. Their problem is all those high draft picks they spent on pitching have netted them nothing

[RedsManRick]

If that is all they were doing, but I think any reasonable person can see what they are doing with the lowball extension offers that were quickly rescinded. These contracts weren't offered in the vaccuum you created above.

How in the world does that help them from a PR perspective? They aren't that stupid.

I'm curious, who made the details public? Who wants to bet it was the agents of the players who called the newspaper? The frame was set from the beginning that these guys were lowballed when in fact the offers were quite reasonable given the state of the market.

[lollipopcurve]

Doing all this right up against the trading deadline is hardly negotiating in good faith. The Pirates gave these guys little time to consider the offer, and there is almost no time for a reasonable negotiation. I see no 2B-SS prospects in the system, so this reeks of a complete tear down/sell off. We'll see. If it goes that way, this will appear more and more like a transparent feigned attempt to keep a solid keystone combination, by a cheap (and somewhat desperate) organization getting cheaper.

If the Pirates looked like they were rebuilding effectively (after the trades of McLouth, Bay and Nady, and several very high 1st round picks), you could maybe see them trying to keep a couple solid guys long-term in the middle infield, as an anchor for the talented youth coming on board. But in that they are seeing very little success in the rebuild so far, they're probably still trying to figure out how to get some reliable young talent into the system. Not impressed at all with what Huntington has done -- I don't see how anyone could be.

[TheNext44]

How dare the Pirates offer players contracts at what they're worth in the market. I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them end up getting less money than the Pirates offer. Sanchez is Jeff Keppinger with regular playing time and Wilson is Royce Clayton Jr.

I'm sure the Pirates were legitimately interested in keeping those two around, just not while overpaying them to be there.

The contract extensions were reasonable given the current market and the players current value. And I agree that both will get less money if they become free agents.

However, the teams had to know that they would be rejected. No player these days would accept a pay cut in the form of a contract extension, unless they have had injuries or a huge fall in production, or were really, really loyal to the team.

Sanchez, who is much better than Keppinger, though I get your point, is having a career year, and Wilson is having the same year he always has.

The whole point of a contract extension is to say to a player, we value your importance to the franchise, and are willing to pay you what it takes to keep you. It's not to say, we think you are worth this much, now sign. That can be accomplished when they are free agents.

To offer them what they would be offered in free agency in the form of an early contract extension, negates the entire point of offering a contract extension, and clearly was just done for PR.

[traderumor]

What TheNext44 said.

[lollipopcurve]

We also know that the Pirates have invested heavily in their player development and scouting system including big investments in Latin America.

The Pirates are actually spending money and acquiring talent. They're just not dumping it on a 25 man roster where it ($) would be more conspicuous (and presumably wasteful as well).

Thought I'd bump this in the context of the news re: the Pirates' failed negotiations with Miguel Angel Sano -- details provided at the link below:


http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2009/09/30/morning-links-forget-sano.aspx

[lollipopcurve]

From the MLB.com article today describing how Sano signed with the Twins. Perhaps some good insight here into why baseball is a people business, and why teams with solid continuity, like the Twins, can outmaneuver other teams who have not built good relationships.

Seems to me the Reds are doing a nice job lately with Tony Arias in Latin America, particularly in VZ.


"All along Plummer said that he wanted his client to receive the largest bonus offered to a Latin American player this year. He acheived that in this deal with Minnesota.

"It was a long process because of what was happening with the investigation," Plummer said. "The Twins were really patient. I communicated with [vice president of player personnel for the Twins] Mike Radcliff weekly through the process. Once he was cleared to sign with a team, I spoke with Mike. Once he got the OK for the money with the owner -- they had a four-hour meeting -- we negotiated for 15 minutes on the phone. We did a deal without even having a second phone call. The major reason it happened like that is I've known Mike for something like 14 years. We trust each other. Back in 1997, I had a workout for one of my players in Ft. Myers. We didn't have enough people to shag balls. Radcliff and then-GM Terry Ryan went and picked up baseballs with me then. Ever since that day, I have so much respect for those two individuals. I think I put Miguel in good hands with the Twins. I totally trust the Twins."

Radcliff used to serve as the Twins' scouting director.

[jojo]

Thought I'd bump this in the context of the news re: the Pirates' failed negotiations with Miguel Angel Sano -- details provided at the link below:


http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2009/09/30/morning-links-forget-sano.aspx

The article suggests the Pirates shouldn't have any regrets on this one.

[lollipopcurve]

The article suggests the Pirates shouldn't have any regrets on this one.

How so? Huntington sounds bitter to me, and the article suggests Pittsburgh ownership was prepared to go much higher than the 3.1 million the Twins got.

Huntington thought the agent would get back to him before making a deal with another team, but apparently the agent had become disenchanted with the Pirates and did not bother to call. Sounds to me like the Pirates botched the pursuit of a player they really wanted.

And this certainly does not bode well for the future:


Moreover, a bridge almost surely has been torched between the Pirates and the agent who now has represented 8 of the top 13 signings in that region's history, not exactly an encouraging sign that other elite talent will be signing up for that new academy.

[dougdirt]

I am with jojo. The Pirates don't seem to have done anything wrong other than pursue a player that they wanted sooner than other teams. The fact that other teams weren't doing so early on somehow seems to have hurt the Pirates in the eyes of the agent. The Pirates made the first two offers on a player, months before anyone else made ANY offer. Both sides seemed to have gotten bitter as things went on. The Pirates seemed to get bitter because they were the only active team in on Sano while being told they weren't going to be negotiated with until someone else stepped up to the plate. The agent seemed to get bitter that the Pirates were the only team making moves toward this player and ultimately it seemed to me that the agent felt MLB was trying to make it happen and cut them off.

[jojo]

How so? Huntington sounds bitter to me, and the article suggests Pittsburgh ownership was prepared to go much higher than the 3.1 million the Twins got.

Huntington thought the agent would get back to him before making a deal with another team, but apparently the agent had become disenchanted with the Pirates and did not bother to call. Sounds to me like the Pirates botched the pursuit of a player they really wanted.

And this certainly does not bode well for the future:

If an entity won't negotiate in good faith (or even negotiate at all), how can one criticize the Pirates for not bidding against themselves?

The agent did his client a huge disservice if he could have gotten significantly more money from the Pirates and instead accepted $3M from the Twins. The Pirates were justified IMHO to be skeptical since age etc where unproven and their offer was the only one.

A bad fit is a bad fit. Sometimes walking away is the best decision.

[lollipopcurve]

I am with jojo. The Pirates don't seem to have done anything wrong other than pursue a player that they wanted sooner than other teams. The fact that other teams weren't doing so early on somehow seems to have hurt the Pirates in the eyes of the agent. The Pirates made the first two offers on a player, months before anyone else made ANY offer. Both sides seemed to have gotten bitter as things went on. The Pirates seemed to get bitter because they were the only active team in on Sano while being told they weren't going to be negotiated with until someone else stepped up to the plate. The agent seemed to get bitter that the Pirates were the only team making moves toward this player and ultimately it seemed to me that the agent felt MLB was trying to make it happen and cut them off.

See it how you want. In my book, the Pirates misjudged the leverage the agent had and alienated him by questioning his approach.

Bottom line: They wanted the player badly and despite being the high bidder for a long time, could not get to the table when it was time to make a deal.

They were clearly looking to make a splash signing to accompany their new facility -- and they wound up on the wrong side of a very influential agent. To me, that's screwing up. They could rebound, but they have put themselves in a bit of a hole at a time they expected to atop the baseball world down there. Oops!

[lollipopcurve]

A bad fit is a bad fit. Sometimes walking away is the best decision.

And that's exactly what the agent did. The Twins are a far better organization for the player -- that is hardly debatable.

[jojo]

See it how you want. In my book, the Pirates misjudged the leverage the agent had and alienated him by questioning his approach.

Bottom line: They wanted the player badly and despite being the high bidder for a long time, could not get to the table when it was time to make a deal.

They were clearly looking to make a splash signing to accompany their new facility -- and they wound up on the wrong side of a very influential agent. To me, that's screwing up. They could rebound, but they have put themselves in a bit of a hole at a time they expected to atop the baseball world down there. Oops!

Bottom line, the Pirates refused to bid against themselves which is exactly the approach that ANY team should take when negotiating. And with all negotiations, one has to be prepared for consequences.

Frankly, this reflects well upon the Pirates FO.

[jojo]

And that's exactly what the agent did. The Twins are a far better organization for the player -- that is hardly debatable.

That it is debatable is kind of one of the points in this thread.....

[lollipopcurve]

Bottom line, the Pirates refused to bid against themselves which is exactly the approach that ANY team should take when negotiating. And with all negotiations, one has to be prepared for consequences.

Frankly, this reflects well upon the Pirates FO.

Strongly disagree. They erroneously determined that the agent would be unable to drum up other offers -- when it seemed rather simple to understand what the agent was trying to do (wait for the age investigation to further legitimize his client). Seems to me they tried to ram the signing down the agent's throat when he was not prepared to make a deal.

They should have been more patient.

This was clearly a deal the Pirates wanted. There's no gray here -- you either get it done or you don't, and not only did they fail to get it done, they burned a pretty important bridge in so doing. Really hamhanded. My guess is you'll see damage control out of the Pittsburgh FO in the near future.

I really see no legitimate way to spin this as a positive for Pittsburgh right now.

[jojo]

Strongly disagree.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree.

[Brutus]

Strongly disagree. They erroneously determined that the agent would be unable to drum up other offers -- when it seemed rather simple to understand what the agent was trying to do (wait for the age investigation to further legitimize his client). Seems to me they tried to ram the signing down the agent's throat when he was not prepared to make a deal.

They should have been more patient.

This was clearly a deal the Pirates wanted. There's no gray here -- you either get it done or you don't, and not only did they fail to get it done, they burned a pretty important bridge in so doing. Really hamhanded. My guess is you'll see damage control out of the Pittsburgh FO in the near future.

I really see no legitimate way to spin this as a positive for Pittsburgh right now.

I don't see this as a positive, but I actually agree with the others. I think this makes the agent look worse than the Pirates. Pittsburgh did about everything humanly possible to nurture a relationship and make it clear they were willing to go to great lengths to get Sano. The agent should have used that leverage and given the Pirates a chance to create a bidding war. Instead, he kept keeping them at arm's length and went with the first serious offer that came from an organization not named Pittsburgh.

It's still a tough blow for Pittsburgh if Sano is what they say he is. But this cannot be their fault, if what is being said is true. The agent blew an opportunity. At very least, Pittsburgh handled it correctly.

[lollipopcurve]

The agent blew an opportunity. At very least, Pittsburgh handled it correctly.

We'll just have to disagree. The agent got more money for holding out until his client's age was better established. It's likely Minnesota's offer was either one that met the agent's number or that they did not want used as the trigger for a bidding war. It's pretty clear that 3.1 was the magic number this year -- it makes Sano the highest paid guy -- what Mateo got from the Cards before that deal fell through.

If you read the Post-Gazette article and the mlb.com article -- mlbtraderumors.com has the link -- you can't miss the suggestion that the Pirates did some things that upset the agent unnecessarily. My read is that they're new to the game down in the DR, and they played it without the requisite finesse to keep a big fish on the line. Maybe they'll get smarter, because it seems to me they still have some learning to do at the Latin American bazaar.