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Krusty
06-04-2009, 10:10 AM
Rental player or not, Holliday could be on the move. And if Billy Beane doesn't ask the farm for Holliday I think Uncle Walt needs to make this move. This could have the same impact that Mark McGwire did for the Cardinals when Walt acquired him from Oakland. Plus, Holliday in the Reds lineup can take some pressure off of Jay Bruce and replace the lost production with Joey Votto on the DL. And if Great American Ballpark isn't the best thing to hit in next to Coors Field, I don't know what ballpark is.

This deal makes all the sense in the world.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4229959

traderumor
06-04-2009, 10:14 AM
You mean we'll have a Big Mac sign in left field that King Albert will knock the "I" bulb out of with one of his superhero gargantuan blasts? ;)

Except LF will be named "Holliday Inn," and yes Matt sleeps in one every night. How do you think he does what he does?

westofyou
06-04-2009, 10:16 AM
And if Billy Beane doesn't ask the farm for Holliday

He's an asset, let's get to the crutch of the issue.. why would he NOT ask for the farm?

HokieRed
06-04-2009, 10:17 AM
Current OPS: Holliday: .804, Laynce Nix: .933.

medford
06-04-2009, 10:19 AM
I'm all for acquired Holliday; I wonder what the Reds would have to give up to get him for half a season. I wonder if Matt Maloney putting together 1 or 2 solid starts prior to Volquez returning from the DL would go a long way towards meeting the A's demands. If the Indian's got LaPorta for CC, would the Reds have to give up Alonso for Holliday? Seems like you can get more back for pitching talent than you could get back for an outfielder, so perhaps the return won't have to be so great.

Homer Bailey
06-04-2009, 10:21 AM
I feel like this has been discussed before.

HokieRed
06-04-2009, 10:21 AM
I feel like this has been discussed before.

Ad nauseam, frankly.

medford
06-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Current OPS: Holliday: .804, Laynce Nix: .933.

I like what I've seen of Nix so far, especially vs righties, but the back of a baseball card will tell you that Holliday will hit both righties & lefties to a solid OPS, and Nix will come back to earth a bit, and won't ever hit lefties. Of course w/ what I've seen of Nix so far, I'm more than willing to give it another month (as well as some starts vs lefties) to see if perhaps Nix is a semblance of the prospect he was once thought to be.

HotCorner
06-04-2009, 10:23 AM
I agree. While Nix has done a good job thus far in LF, an acquisition of Holliday would add some stability & credibility to the lineup and strengthen the bench.

A lot has been made about Holliday's slow start in Oakland. However in May we produced more in line to his prior seasons.



G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
April 18 75 5 18 4 1 1 12 4 12 0 0 .240 .288 .360 .648
May 29 103 18 30 2 0 5 16 19 17 4 1 .291 .416 .456 .872
June 3 12 2 4 2 0 1 5 1 3 0 0 .333 .385 .750 1.135


Also his splits away from pitcher friendly confines of Oakland are quite encouraging.



G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Home 24 88 11 22 3 1 3 17 12 17 1 1 .250 .353 .409 .762
Away 26 102 14 30 5 0 4 16 12 15 3 0 .294 .379 .461 .840


The other aspect of a trade of this magnitude would be the positive effect to the clubhouse that ownership is in it to win.

As long as the price isn't insanely high, I would love this move.

jojo
06-04-2009, 10:32 AM
Current OPS: Holliday: .804, Laynce Nix: .933.

Nix has been used almost exclusively against righties as a major leaguer (lefties have annihilated him in the few PAs he's gotten against them in the bigs) so really he's kind of half a player. His projections are built upon not having to face lefties as well.

Holliday is a superior player both offensively and defensively. Of course the argument ensues concerning how much of an upgrade over a platoon and what is it worth....

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-04-2009, 11:22 AM
I am all for pursuing Matt Holliday, especially if ownership makes a real effort to sign him to a long-term contract. He could anchor this lineup with Votto and Bruce for years to come.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2009, 11:22 AM
Once Votto gets back, offense likely becomes a pretty minor problem. Reds should be targeting starters for the dog days--injuries, ineffectiveness will bring the whole structure down if not remedied.

PuffyPig
06-04-2009, 11:24 AM
Rental player or not, Holliday could be on the move. And if Billy Beane doesn't ask the farm for Holliday I think Uncle Walt needs to make this move.

Of course he will ask the farm for Holliday.

In any event, Holliday is a good player, but he doesn't represent that much increased value to a Nix/Goomes platoon that we should give up a lot of trading chips to get a rental player.

fearofpopvol1
06-04-2009, 12:23 PM
Not surprising, but...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4229959

KoryMac5
06-04-2009, 12:28 PM
Free agent in the offseason. Which means if Beane doesn't get the right deal he will gladly take the draft picks. I would imagine you would have to start the bidding with Alonso to get him, plus two other players, Heisey seems like a Beane player.

Krusty
06-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Of course he will ask the farm for Holliday.

In any event, Holliday is a good player, but he doesn't represent that much increased value to a Nix/Goomes platoon that we should give up a lot of trading chips to get a rental player.

Look at what the Pirates got for Nate McLouth and McLouth isn't in his walk year. To think a team will get top prospects for a rental player like Holliday just isn't going to happen.

thatcoolguy_22
06-04-2009, 01:14 PM
To think a team will get top prospects for a rental player like Holliday just isn't going to happen.

The Indians would like to say hello.

_Sir_Charles_
06-04-2009, 01:29 PM
Am I the only one who has a sneaking suspision that Holliday is not as good as advertised? How many players have we seen leave Colorado only to have their careers take a nose dive? He had career highs in a ton of catagories back in 2007 and finished 2nd in the MVP voting but had his numbers tail off considerably last season. They were still good, but certainly a down turn. And now he's in Oakland and he's not exactly tearing things up. I'd be VERY hesitant to trade away some considerable young talent for a partial year of this guy. I hope I'm wrong because he seems like a genuinely nice guy, but something about his stats and where he's played make me nervous.

osuceltic
06-04-2009, 01:32 PM
He's exactly the right fit and a classic Jocketty acquisition. Yes, it will take a lot to get him. It should -- he's a great player. And there's a very real risk that the Reds will not be able to sign him after this season. But at some point you have to go for it. I don't think the Brewers regret trading LaPorta. They got what they paid for -- a legitimate impact player who fueled a postseason push.

Assuming Votto comes back with no long-term impact on his performance, then Alonso's value to this team is as a trading chip. That's just a reality. Why not find the perfect fit and go for it?

jojo
06-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Holliday had a typical Holliday season last season-really a drop from a 150 OPS+ to a 140 OPS+ is a sign?

This season he went from a weaker league and a hitters park to a stronger league and a pitcher's environment. The he had a slow April to boot.

I'm not seeing a collapse in skill here......

_Sir_Charles_
06-04-2009, 01:39 PM
Holliday had a typical Holliday season last season-really a drop from a 150 OPS+ to a 140 OPS+ is a sign?

This season he went from a weaker league and a hitters park to a stronger league and a pitcher's environment. The he had a slow April to boot.

I'm not seeing a collapse in skill here......

I know the fall off was small. And now that he's out of Colorado, he's having another small fall off. I'm not saying he's not a good player or his stats aren't good. I'm just hesitant with ex-Rockie sluggers I guess.

Doubles fell from 50 to 38
Triples fell from 6 to 2
HR's fell from 36 to 25
RBI's fell from 137 to 88
AVG fell from .340 to .321

And now they seem to be falling again now that he's in Oak. I'm just not ready to call him the savior quite yet is all.

cincrazy
06-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Am I the only one who has a sneaking suspision that Holliday is not as good as advertised? How many players have we seen leave Colorado only to have their careers take a nose dive? He had career highs in a ton of catagories back in 2007 and finished 2nd in the MVP voting but had his numbers tail off considerably last season. They were still good, but certainly a down turn. And now he's in Oakland and he's not exactly tearing things up. I'd be VERY hesitant to trade away some considerable young talent for a partial year of this guy. I hope I'm wrong because he seems like a genuinely nice guy, but something about his stats and where he's played make me nervous.

He had a rough April, but has had a fantastic May. And while Coors is clearly a hitters park, is it really that much of a dropoff going from Coors to GABP?

Tom Servo
06-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Once Votto gets back, offense likely becomes a pretty minor problem. Reds should be targeting starters for the dog days--injuries, ineffectiveness will bring the whole structure down if not remedied.
My feelings as well. I'm more concerned with the pitching than the offense over the long haul.

Krusty
06-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Holliday had a typical Holliday season last season-really a drop from a 150 OPS+ to a 140 OPS+ is a sign?

This season he went from a weaker league and a hitters park to a stronger league and a pitcher's environment. The he had a slow April to boot.

I'm not seeing a collapse in skill here......

People forget that switching leagues he is seeing pitchers for the first time. That would explain his lousy April stats. But in May you do see an improvement.

Krusty
06-04-2009, 01:42 PM
My feelings as well. I'm more concerned with the pitching than the offense over the long haul.

Still, you have several young arms in the system to package in a deal to bring in another workhorse starter if there is a need.

Homer Bailey
06-04-2009, 01:46 PM
I'd do it only if we can sign him to a 3 year extension. If at all possible I would avoid trading Alonso, but if it has to be done it has to be done.

jojo
06-04-2009, 01:47 PM
I know the fall off was small. And now that he's out of Colorado, he's having another small fall off. I'm not saying he's not a good player or his stats aren't good. I'm just hesitant with ex-Rockie sluggers I guess.

Doubles fell from 50 to 38
Triples fell from 6 to 2
HR's fell from 36 to 25
RBI's fell from 137 to 88
AVG fell from .340 to .321

And now they seem to be falling again now that he's in Oak. I'm just not ready to call him the savior quite yet is all.

You've set the guy's best year to date as the baseline and you're completely ignoring randomness, league effects and environment.

Something about that process makes me hesitant to accept the conclusion...

Krusty
06-04-2009, 01:50 PM
I know the fall off was small. And now that he's out of Colorado, he's having another small fall off. I'm not saying he's not a good player or his stats aren't good. I'm just hesitant with ex-Rockie sluggers I guess.

Doubles fell from 50 to 38
Triples fell from 6 to 2
HR's fell from 36 to 25
RBI's fell from 137 to 88
AVG fell from .340 to .321

And now they seem to be falling again now that he's in Oak. I'm just not ready to call him the savior quite yet is all.

You forget Holliday was on the DL for awhile last season.

hippie07
06-04-2009, 01:52 PM
I'm in love w/ Nix (I'm a girl so it's okay to say that) ...

anyway in the world that Dusty would stick him in centerfield in Holliday is acquired??

If Bruce comes around .. you're really talking about a crazy scary lineup...

Hairston 3b
Phillips 2b
Votto 1b
Holliday lf
Bruce rf
Hernandez c
Nix cf
Gonzalez ss

of course there's alotta IF's in that lineup, but IF EdE comes back and plays to his potentional.... look out!!

_Sir_Charles_
06-04-2009, 01:54 PM
He had a rough April, but has had a fantastic May. And while Coors is clearly a hitters park, is it really that much of a dropoff going from Coors to GABP?

I know, I know. I'm probably totally wrong. I hope I am. But look back on what we've seen of ex-Rockies sluggers after they leave the thin air.

Bichette, Castilla, Walker, several others. Like I said, hopefully I'm wrong. But I don't think I'd deal our best minor leaguers for a partial season from him.

Good point about the DL last season Krusty, I'd forgotten about that. Still doesn't change my hesitation though. Just something in my gut that says "beware".

cincrazy
06-04-2009, 01:59 PM
I know, I know. I'm probably totally wrong. I hope I am. But look back on what we've seen of ex-Rockies sluggers after they leave the thin air.

Bichette, Castilla, Walker, several others. Like I said, hopefully I'm wrong. But I don't think I'd deal our best minor leaguers for a partial season from him.

Good point about the DL last season Krusty, I'd forgotten about that. Still doesn't change my hesitation though. Just something in my gut that says "beware".

Well, I see what you're saying about Coors. It's a valid point. But I think the humidor that has been in use for the last few years has kind of balanced that out. And while some guys experienced huge dropoffs, others did not. Galarraga excelled, as did Larry Walker when he was healthy, among a few others.

It's a possibility he could fail, but there's also a chance he could become even better in between Votto and Bruce, with Phillips not far away in the lineup as well. That would look darn good on paper.

_Sir_Charles_
06-04-2009, 02:03 PM
I've heard the humidor mentioned several times over the past year or so...never really looked into it though. Would it really make that much difference? *heads off to check*

cincrazy
06-04-2009, 02:08 PM
I've heard the humidor mentioned several times over the past year or so...never really looked into it though. Would it really make that much difference? *heads off to check*

I think it would make a huge difference. Plus, Bruce and Votto would no longer be looked at as the saviors. A veteran can play that role. That would be nice, that's for sure.

_Sir_Charles_
06-04-2009, 02:12 PM
Just checked the humidor stuff. Interesting. Never really read about that before.

As for Holliday, it's not that I'm against getting him. I'd really need to see the deal before I could decide. I'd be hesitant to deal Alonso & other top prospects for ANY player if it was a rental. Get a contract extension in the package and I could swallow it much easier thats for sure. But I also think I'd want to see a bit more time out of Colorado....juuuuuust to be sure.

Brutus
06-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Thing about Holliday is that his road OPS away from Coors got better and better each of the past four seasons.

2004: .654
2005: .729
2006: .818
2007: .859
2008: .891

As you can see, he really has become a great hitter wherever he's hit. He's not a product of Coors Field, regardless of the affects the humidor may have had in minimizing the impact.

princeton
06-04-2009, 02:16 PM
many bats will be available this year, IMO. If Walt's not selling, he'll be bargain hunting and not focusing on one player.

I wonder if Dunn will finally fetch a return?

fearofpopvol1
06-04-2009, 02:23 PM
You've set the guy's best year to date as the baseline and you're completely ignoring randomness, league effects and environment.

Something about that process makes me hesitant to accept the conclusion...

His career road OPS compared to his career home OPS is what concerns me.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2009, 03:45 PM
I don't think Yonder should be moved for anyone not named Jake.

Beane got Holliday almost entirely for the draft picks (and the slim chance his team was going to compete this year). All a GM like Walt needs to do is convince Beane that his offer is better than those picks.

Yonder is immediately better (on paper) than what Beane will be getting with the draft picks, likely one late first rounder and one supplemental rounder (between first and second). Yonder was an early first rounder, who kinda "fell" to the Reds at #7 overall. So I would consider him more valuable than pick #20 and #34 (as an example).

Only for a non-rental pitcher would I consider moving Yonder Alonso. At least at this point.

flyer85
06-04-2009, 03:48 PM
I'd say the 2009 OPS is a better picture of the real Holliday than the inflated Coors numbers.

kaldaniels
06-04-2009, 03:49 PM
I don't think Yonder should be moved for anyone not named Jake.

Beane got Holliday almost entirely for the draft picks (and the slim chance his team was going to compete this year). All a GM like Walt needs to do is convince Beane that his offer is better than those picks.

Yonder is immediately better (on paper) than what Beane will be getting with the draft picks, likely one late first rounder and one supplemental rounder (between first and second). Yonder was an early first rounder, who kinda "fell" to the Reds at #7 overall. So I would consider him more valuable than pick #20 and #34 (as an example).

Only for a non-rental pitcher would I consider moving Yonder Alonso. At least at this point.

Not quite so easy. The GM (in this instance Walt) also has to convince Beane none of the 28 or so other clubs will not beat Walt's offer.

Agree though, don't trade Yonder for Matt H.

flyer85
06-04-2009, 03:51 PM
Agree though, don't trade Yonder for Matt H.I'd say McClouth had more trade value than Holliday and the Braves gave up very little for him.

Hoosier Red
06-04-2009, 03:56 PM
Yes but the Pirates are stupid.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Not quite so easy. The GM (in this instance Walt) also has to convince Beane none of the 28 or so other clubs will not beat Walt's offer.

Agree though, don't trade Yonder for Matt H.

True... I should have said, that's the starting point. A GM is competing with other contending GMs who have that LF hole. That helps narrow down the competition somewhat.

The other side to this for a club like the Reds who continue to stockpile their farm system: if they trade for Holliday and don't manage to sign him long term, they get the 2 picks. Middle of the order bat (during a season in which the Reds need one) and re-stocking the farm system with blue chip prospects?

Obviously the Reds have to give to get, but it's worth appropriately valuing exactly what they get in return in that deal.

flyer85
06-04-2009, 03:59 PM
Yes but the Pirates are stupid.can't argue that.

Hollidays 2009 away OPS is spot on his 2006-2008 away OPS numbers I(~850). I would say that those numbers are pretty much who Holliday really is. A very average LF with the bat. Just another Coors field mirage.

Brutus
06-04-2009, 04:07 PM
can't argue that.

Hollidays 2009 away OPS is spot on his 2006-2008 away OPS numbers I(~850). I would say that those numbers are pretty much who Holliday really is. A very average LF with the bat. Just another Coors field mirage.

Even for LF, an .850 OPS is slightly above average. I would not call an above-average player a 'mirage.' Let's also not forget he's just now in the prime of his career and is a guy that has improved each and every single season he's been in the big leagues (on the road, that is). Heck, the average left field OPS is generally .810-.820.

I don't think 'mirage' adequately describes a player who puts up above average numbers, even away from a hitter-friendly park. If May is any indication that this is the 'real' Matt Holliday, I'll take an .870 OPS any day of the week - and that's certainly better than just being a product of a certain ballpark IMHO.

flyer85
06-04-2009, 04:08 PM
Even for LF, an .850 OPS is slightly above average.that's right, SLIGHTLY. He is nothing special and certainly not a difference maker for this club. CF and SS are much bigger issues than what is going on in LF. i'd be more than willing to take my chances on a Nix/Gomes platoon and go out and find a SS and find a trash bin in which to stuff Willy T(the Reds have numerous in house options likely far superior to their current CF).

Brutus
06-04-2009, 04:16 PM
that's right, SLIGHTLY. He is nothing special and certainly not a difference maker for this club. CF and SS are much bigger issues than what is going on in LF. i'd be more than willing to take my chances on a Nix/Gomes platoon and go out and find a SS and find a trash bin in which to stuff Willy T(the Reds have numerous in house options likely far superior to their current CF).

I'm perfectly willing to ride out the Nix-Gomes platoon, as well. I think it's been productive and could continue to be. But I still don't think there's any question Matt Holliday is still a clear upgrade and the Reds should be looking to upgrade best they can. As much as I'd like to see someone like Miguel Tejada inserted at SS, for whatever reason, the Reds are glued to Alex Gonzalez so that kind of thing will not happen. Therefore, they have to upgrade somewhere.

I don't know about you, but a consistent, everyday .850 to .870 at worst-case scenario looks pretty good for the rest of the year. And let's not forget Holliday would be playing half his games at GABP, so let's leave open the possibility that he could rake in Cincinnati just like he did Colorado.

For his position, Holliday still seems to be the best bat available this year. Other than SS, which the Reds are not looking for, there just are not any other possibilities of a clear upgrade. Holliday provides that.

Jpup
06-04-2009, 04:19 PM
I'd say McClouth had more trade value than Holliday and the Braves gave up very little for him.

Really? I really don't think McCouth is a game changer. Holliday is. I'm certainly fine with Nix in left though.

Brutus
06-04-2009, 04:25 PM
Really? I really don't think McCouth is a game changer. Holliday is. I'm certainly fine with Nix in left though.

Gross Production Average or GPA (3-year averages)

Holliday (road splits only) .288
McLouth .269

Both are roughly 103-104% of a league average starter for their positions. But clearly, even taking out Coors Field, Holliday has been a more productive player.

PuffyPig
06-04-2009, 04:27 PM
Really? I really don't think McCouth is a game changer. Holliday is. I'm certainly fine with Nix in left though.

But McLouth is signed for 3+ years, and Holliday is a rental. That vastly changes their trade value.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2009, 04:30 PM
It makes no sense whatsoever to pursue Holliday when you consider the much greater needs this team has in terms of pitching depth. Outside of a long-shot like Maloney, they've really got nothing in the minors, and the MLB arms are old, expensive, gimpy, or ineffective for the most part. The preseason press about this rotation was wrong; they need to get back to work on it. Posthaste.

osuceltic
06-04-2009, 04:37 PM
It makes no sense whatsoever to pursue Holliday when you consider the much greater needs this team has in terms of pitching depth. Outside of a long-shot like Maloney, they've really got nothing in the minors, and the MLB arms are old, expensive, gimpy, or ineffective for the most part. The preseason press about this rotation was wrong; they need to get back to work on it. Posthaste.

Talk about hyperbole. Who is old? Who is gimpy? Do you mean Volquez? That's a little over-the-top, but not surprising I guess.

The truth is every team is always working on their starting rotation. Always. But I'd say 80 percent of the teams in baseball would trade starting staffs with the Reds.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2009, 04:41 PM
But I'd say 80 percent of the teams in baseball would trade starting staffs with the Reds.

The Reds' starters' ERA is about middle of the pack in MLB. Their bullpen, a bit better.

I doubt the 45-50% of teams with better starters' ERA would want to swap with the Reds.

Homer Bailey
06-04-2009, 04:44 PM
It makes no sense whatsoever to pursue Holliday when you consider the much greater needs this team has in terms of pitching depth. Outside of a long-shot like Maloney, they've really got nothing in the minors, and the MLB arms are old, expensive, gimpy, or ineffective for the most part. The preseason press about this rotation was wrong; they need to get back to work on it. Posthaste.

What MLB arms are ineffective? Aside from Lincoln?

Falls City Beer
06-04-2009, 04:52 PM
What MLB arms are ineffective? Aside from Lincoln?

Arroyo, Owings are ineffective.

Harang is middling, but not a bad fairly stable innings-eater type.

Cueto's been phenomenal.

Volquez has been bad (5.25 FIP) and is now hurt.

Right now, Cueto's the only guy I'd hand the ball to in a postseason game.

cincrazy
06-04-2009, 05:05 PM
Arroyo, Owings are ineffective.

Harang is middling, but not a bad fairly stable innings-eater type.

Cueto's been phenomenal.

Volquez has been bad (5.25 FIP) and is now hurt.

Right now, Cueto's the only guy I'd hand the ball to in a postseason game.

Do you really think that Arroyo has been ineffective? He's had ineffective starts, yes. But to continue to act like the guy has been atrocious is downright ridiculous.

OnBaseMachine
06-04-2009, 05:17 PM
Arroyo has been solid. He's had a couple horrible outings but has pitched well in most of his other starts. Harang is above average (108 ERA+). Cueto has been terrific. Volquez has been okay despite a slow start (104 ERA+).

I don't use FIP.

I would like to add another starter, but offense is the biggest problem with this team.

lollipopcurve
06-04-2009, 05:25 PM
Arroyo, Owings are ineffective.

Harang is middling, but not a bad fairly stable innings-eater type.

Arroyo: 70 IP, 6/11 quality starts
Harang: 68 IP, 5/11 quality starts

nate
06-04-2009, 05:36 PM
There's basically one thing that kills the Reds pitching and it's giving up walks. If they could nip that in the bud, I think many concerns would vanish.

Offense, to me, is still the biggest problem. I think they should fix it via 3B. I don't know who that means they get, but I see that as the place to slot it in. Holliday's a nice player but is he worth organizational treasure for a couple months? Will his production be that much better than Laynny Gox?

TheNext44
06-04-2009, 05:46 PM
The Reds' starters' ERA is about middle of the pack in MLB. Their bullpen, a bit better.

I doubt the 45-50% of teams with better starters' ERA would want to swap with the Reds.


Teams with Starting ERA above the Reds:

Dodgers
Cardinals
Giants
Braves
Cubs
Mariners
Pirates
Angels
Royals
Mets
Diamondbacks
Blue Jays

I think the six in bold would keep their starting staff over the Reds.

That makes 23 out of 29 teams (79.3%) according to my count that would prefer the Reds starting staff to their own.

You're right, it's not 80%. :cool:

Falls City Beer
06-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Teams with Starting ERA above the Reds:

Dodgers
Cardinals
Giants
Braves
Cubs
Mariners
Pirates
Angels
Royals
Mets
Diamondbacks
Blue Jays

I think the six in bold would keep their starting staff over the Reds.

That makes 23 out of 29 teams (79.3%) according to my count that would prefer the Reds starting staff to their own.

You're right, it's not 80%. :cool:

I doubt the Red Sox, Jays, Rays, Yanks, Tigers, or Dodgers would consider a swap for even a moment.

flyer85
06-04-2009, 06:01 PM
one thing that is true of all NL teams with a lower ERA than the Reds, they all played in decidedly pitchers parks. The 4 other NL teams that play in hitters parks are below the Reds.

*BaseClogger*
06-04-2009, 06:03 PM
This post sums it all up for me on the first page of the thread:


In any event, Holliday is a good player, but he doesn't represent that much increased value to a Nix/Goomes platoon that we should give up a lot of trading chips to get a rental player.

Mario-Rijo
06-04-2009, 06:09 PM
I doubt the Red Sox, Jays, Yanks, Tigers, or Dodgers would consider a swap for even a moment.

I doubt the Reds would be itching to swap with most clubs in this dept. Granted we are far from where we would like to be in terms of starters and overall staff. For this season we are in as good or better shape then 2/3 of MLB clubs and we have some promise for the future as well. BUt just for the sake of argument the Blue Jays have one #1 starter and a host of #3's at best, the Yankees pitchers can never stay healthy or effective long and they make ridiculous dollars and the Dodgers are not currently in as good or better shape than the Reds from front to back or overall.

TheNext44
06-04-2009, 06:15 PM
I doubt the Red Sox, Jays, Rays, Yanks, Tigers, or Dodgers would consider a swap for even a moment.

It all depends on if you are talking about for the rest of the year, or for future, and if you are including salaries.

Anyway, there is no way anyone can convince me that the Reds starters are not in the top third of the NL, or MLB, no matter how you define it.

And the Dodgers are starting Eric Milton and Jeff Weaver. Need to know anymore?

redsfan4445
06-04-2009, 10:34 PM
per mlbtraderumours

"La Russa: Cards Seek Big Bat
By Eddie Schmid [June 4 at 8:44pm CST]

According to Matthew Leach at MLB.com, Tony La Russa longs for a big bat to protect Albert Pujols. Leach notes that La Russa "spoke like a man who has expectations, rather than hopes."

The Cardinals have been linked to Mark DeRosa recently, though La Russa seems to indicate he wants something greater. He directly refers to the past Matt Holliday discussions, and Leach notes Holliday as an "intriguing name" as he has been open to a possible trade away from Oakland. La Russa indicated that the club has some financial flexibility, but wants to avoid anything "unreasonable.""


MAN dont let teh Cards get Holiday!!!!

Tom Servo
06-04-2009, 10:44 PM
That's not too bad. I was terrified about it being Adam Dunn.

redsfan4445
06-05-2009, 12:15 AM
That's not too bad. I was terrified about it being Adam Dunn.

Oh WOW I didnt think of that either!!

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-05-2009, 12:27 AM
per mlbtraderumours

"La Russa: Cards Seek Big Bat
By Eddie Schmid [June 4 at 8:44pm CST]

According to Matthew Leach at MLB.com, Tony La Russa longs for a big bat to protect Albert Pujols. Leach notes that La Russa "spoke like a man who has expectations, rather than hopes."

The Cardinals have been linked to Mark DeRosa recently, though La Russa seems to indicate he wants something greater. He directly refers to the past Matt Holliday discussions, and Leach notes Holliday as an "intriguing name" as he has been open to a possible trade away from Oakland. La Russa indicated that the club has some financial flexibility, but wants to avoid anything "unreasonable.""


MAN dont let teh Cards get Holiday!!!!


That would just be too much to take: Reds continued inactivity combined with division rival's aggressiveness.

While I wouldn't throw in the towel, I'd certainly be reaching for it.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 07:41 AM
It makes no sense whatsoever to pursue Holliday when you consider the much greater needs this team has in terms of pitching depth. Outside of a long-shot like Maloney, they've really got nothing in the minors, and the MLB arms are old, expensive, gimpy, or ineffective for the most part. The preseason press about this rotation was wrong; they need to get back to work on it. Posthaste.

The Reds continue to lack depth and long-term options with many positions.

SS? Check
C? Check
SP? Check
CF? Check

We have a slew of kids that can probably be stop gaps for 2B, 3B and LF, but where we really need help we currently lack the bodies.

I can only shake my head with every passing day that guys like Weathers, Arroyo, R. Hernandez and Harang remain Reds, when you would hope we could fill some depth and holes at the same time by sending any or all of those guys packing.

Harang's the only guy on that list I wanna see stay, but at the same time he's not getting any younger or cheaper, and as much as I wanna think the Reds have a shot in 2010, less and less I believe that silly notion...

Jpup
06-07-2009, 07:54 AM
The Reds have plenty of centerfielders. It should be Dickerson's job anyway.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 08:20 AM
The Reds have plenty of centerfielders. It should be Dickerson's job anyway.

Long-term options?

And don't say Stubbs

membengal
06-07-2009, 08:55 AM
Both Chris Heisey and Drew Stubbs are fine long term options in CF. Better than fine, in fact.

mth123
06-07-2009, 09:09 AM
Personally, I'd add Dickerson to that list. Keep Dickerson and one of the right handed guys and trade the other. Since Stubbs probably has the most trade value at this point, I'd keep Dickerson and Heisey and deal Stubbs. I'd deal Willy while I'm at it.

membengal
06-07-2009, 09:12 AM
Personally, I'd add Dickerson to that list. Keep Dickerson and one of the right handed guys and trade the other. Since Stubbs probably has the most trade value at this point, I'd keep Dickerson and Heisey and deal Stubbs. I'd deal Willy while I'm at it.

Co-sign.

GAC
06-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Not surprising, but...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4229959

And many need to pay attention to this from the article....


Holliday, who is expected to land a huge contract this offseason as a free agent, was acquired by the A's from the Colorado Rockies before the season. He is making $13.5 million this season. It would be a major surprise if the small-market A's were able to re-sign Holliday after the season.

He'll never be a Red.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Both Chris Heisey and Drew Stubbs are fine long term options in CF. Better than fine, in fact.

Heisey will end up playing a corner OF, and Stubbs is a defensive CF.

Scrap Irony
06-07-2009, 10:53 AM
Heisey is, by all accounts, a superior CF defensively. Do you not read the Minor League Board?

OnBaseMachine
06-07-2009, 11:55 AM
Heisey will end up playing a corner OF, and Stubbs is a defensive CF.

Where did you hear that Heisey would move to a corner OF? Heisey is considered an above average defensive center fielder by those who have seen him.

Patrick Bateman
06-07-2009, 12:46 PM
and Stubbs is a defensive CF.

And has a .378 OBP in AAA and shown great plate patience. But you've never shown a liking for walks, so I guess that doesn't count.

BTW, his current skillset isn't dissimilar to Chris Denorfia. The main difference is that Stubbs may actually get better, and is a top notch defender in CF.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Where did you hear that Heisey would move to a corner OF? Heisey is considered an above average defensive center fielder by those who have seen him.

So between Heisey and Stubbs, who plays CF?

OnBaseMachine
06-07-2009, 02:24 PM
So between Heisey and Stubbs, who plays CF?

It looked to me like you were saying Heisey couldn't handle CF.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 02:24 PM
And has a .378 OBP in AAA and shown great plate patience. But you've never shown a liking for walks, so I guess that doesn't count.

BTW, his current skillset isn't dissimilar to Chris Denorfia. The main difference is that Stubbs may actually get better, and is a top notch defender in CF.

You must have me confused with someone else.

I love and value walks.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 02:53 PM
It looked to me like you were saying Heisey couldn't handle CF.

I apologize, my assumption was that Stubbs was better than Heisey defensively and would be the CF if they shared the same OF with the Reds, therefore Heisey would end up as a corner OF, most likely LF.

I'm not convinced Stubbs has the major league stick, though.

Patrick Bateman
06-07-2009, 03:35 PM
You must have me confused with someone else.

I love and value walks.

My comment was obviously dripping with sarcasm. It was a poke at your hypocritical dislike at Stubbs considering that you seemingly dismiss his strengths even though they are things that you have valued highly in the past.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 05:26 PM
My comment was obviously dripping with sarcasm. It was a poke at your hypocritical dislike at Stubbs considering that you seemingly dismiss his strengths even though they are things that you have valued highly in the past.

Ok, so he can walk and plays excellent D

Let's see what he can do in the Show, b/c IMO, he won't OPS North of .700 in the show, and his OBP will be greater than his SLG

Patrick Bateman
06-07-2009, 06:26 PM
Ok, so he can walk and plays excellent D

Let's see what he can do in the Show, b/c IMO, he won't OPS North of .700 in the show, and his OBP will be greater than his SLG

Which may very well be true. But I find it stubborn to completely disregard the guy at this point. It was in vogue to trash the guy when he got off to a slow start in his professional career, but he's moved up the chain, with decent OBP numbers at every stop, while playing top tier D at a key defensive position. He's knocking at the door, and he's got the chance to do what Denorfia was supposed to.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 09:37 PM
Which may very well be true. But I find it stubborn to completely disregard the guy at this point. It was in vogue to trash the guy when he got off to a slow start in his professional career, but he's moved up the chain, with decent OBP numbers at every stop, while playing top tier D at a key defensive position. He's knocking at the door, and he's got the chance to do what Denorfia was supposed to.

We need a top flight defender in CF. We need someone who gets on base. I hope that Stubbs can do that at the MLB level, but I'm not the only one who's skeptical of his ability to produce legitimate offense at the MLB level.

I've said multiple times that I hope Stubbs proves me wrong, but at every level of his pro career, he's proven to be contact challenged, and struck out at IIRC an above Dunn-esque rate. While that doesn't bother me b/c of his D, it'll certainly bother other fans, and definitely bother a certain poofy-haired broadcaster, who may subsequently attempt to run Stubbs out of town.

reds44
06-07-2009, 09:42 PM
We need a top flight defender in CF. We need someone who gets on base. I hope that Stubbs can do that at the MLB level, but I'm not the only one who's skeptical of his ability to produce legitimate offense at the MLB level.

I've said multiple times that I hope Stubbs proves me wrong, but at every level of his pro career, he's proven to be contact challenged, and struck out at IIRC an above Dunn-esque rate. While that doesn't bother me b/c of his D, it'll certainly bother other fans, and definitely bother a certain poofy-haired broadcaster, who may subsequently attempt to run Stubbs out of town.
Is this not what Chris Dickerson is doing right now?

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 09:46 PM
Is this not what Chris Dickerson is doing right now?

Dickerson unfortunately needs a platoon partner.

Love the guy, love his game, but he's not an everyday player b/c he should only play vs RHP.

reds44
06-07-2009, 10:07 PM
Dickerson unfortunately needs a platoon partner.

Love the guy, love his game, but he's not an everyday player b/c he should only play vs RHP.
And Drew Stubbs is pretty much right handed Chris Dickerson.

Platoon them.

RedsManRick
06-07-2009, 10:09 PM
Dickerson has a career .390 major league OBP and plays great defense in CF. Top flight defensive CF who get on base aren't exactly easy to come by. Carlos Beltran and Adam Jones aren't available.

We've got a guy doing it at the major league level and two pretty solid prospects who play great defense and can get on base in AAA and AA.

Regarding Dunn, while Marty and company certainly didn't like his strikeouts, if he played plus defense they wouldn't minded those strikeouts nearly has much.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2009, 11:30 PM
And Drew Stubbs is pretty much right handed Chris Dickerson.

Platoon them.

But will Stubbs duplicate Dickerson's numbers at the MLB level?

If so, you're absolutely right. Platoon them.

reds44
06-08-2009, 02:13 AM
But will Stubbs duplicate Dickerson's numbers at the MLB level?

If so, you're absolutely right. Platoon them.
I don't know, if I did I'd be working for the Reds right now.

It's worth a shot though.

camisadelgolf
06-08-2009, 03:51 AM
But will Stubbs duplicate Dickerson's numbers at the MLB level?

If so, you're absolutely right. Platoon them.
For his minor league career, Stubbs actually hits slightly better against right-handers.

reds44
06-08-2009, 03:59 AM
For his minor league career, Stubbs actually hits slightly better against right-handers.
But is he better than Dickerson vs right-handers?

Dickerson's career MLB vs. RHO:
.309/.411/.654/1.065

This season (and probably more realstic):
.255/.374/.382/.756

If Dickerson and Stubbs could platoon and post a .750 OPS with their defense the Reds would be plus in CF.

Patrick Bateman
06-08-2009, 10:11 AM
But is he better than Dickerson vs right-handers?

Dickerson's career MLB vs. RHO:
.309/.411/.654/1.065

This season (and probably more realstic):
.255/.374/.382/.756

If Dickerson and Stubbs could platoon and post a .750 OPS with their defense the Reds would be plus in CF.

Yep, and I don't think that would be unrealistic at all. If anything, it's erring on the side of caution.

camisadelgolf
06-08-2009, 12:23 PM
Based on their defensive play, I'd rather have Stubbs + ~.750 OPS than Dickerson + ~.770 OPS.