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OnBaseMachine
06-04-2009, 06:53 PM
From Lance's blog:

It's Maloney
LHP Matt Maloney will start for the Reds Saturday night vs the Cubs. He will be making his Major League debut.
This season Maloney went 4-3, 2.00 in 10 starts for Class AAA Louisville.
He will wear uniform number 56.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

Homer Bailey
06-04-2009, 06:56 PM
They finally got it right!

Ltlabner
06-04-2009, 07:09 PM
Hooray! Our next I71 Savior is Here.

OnBaseMachine
06-04-2009, 07:12 PM
Maloney could come up and post a 5.50 ERA, but he's worth a shot. He doesn't have anything left to prove in Triple-A. I don't expect him to come up and dominate and I hope no one else does either.

wheels
06-04-2009, 07:17 PM
It's finally official?

As of this afternoon, Matt hadn't been notified.

I wish I could be there to see it, but I have to go to a wedding.

Why can't my friends put off spending the rest of their lives together for one more day?

OnBaseMachine
06-04-2009, 07:22 PM
Maloney to pitch Saturday

The easiest to figure out secret of the week is now official. Lefty Matt Maloney will make his big league debut and pitch on Saturday vs. the Cubs. Maloney was 4-3 with a 2.00 ERA in 10 starts for Triple-A Louisville. He had a staff leading 67 1/3 innings and 58 strikeouts.

Besides earning the call-up with his numbers, the timing was perfect for Maloney. The 25-year-old will be pitching on his normal four days rest since he dealt a three-hit shutout with 10 strikeouts for the Bats on Monday. Homer Bailey pitched Tuesday and it wouldn't have been prudent to have him work on short rest.

And for people who care about uniform numbers, Maloney will be wearing No. 56.

Maloney, who calls Columbus his hometown, was acquired in the deadline period trade that sent starting pitcher Kyle Lohse to the Phillies on July 30, 2007. Considering that the Phillies didn't go far in the playoffs that season and Lohse is now with the Cardinals, this is a plus-deal for the Reds and former GM Wayne Krivsky -- especially if he can do well in the big leagues. Maloney is far from a power pitcher and throws his fastball in the mid-to-high 80s but relies on deception and off-speed.

In Spring Training, Maloney only pitched in two games and gave up four earned runs and six hits in three innings.

Trivia: Maloney will be only the second left-hander started for the Reds in 236games. Adam Pettyjohn was the other when he started on the last day of the 2008 season vs. the Cardinals.

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/

wheels
06-04-2009, 07:25 PM
I think he's also the second Maloney to pitch for the Reds.

Jim Maloney being the other, of course (I don't think there is any relation).

I hope he doesn't stink up the joint.:D

RedsManRick
06-04-2009, 07:29 PM
Good for Matt. He's earned his the shot.

vic715
06-04-2009, 07:43 PM
I think he's also the second Maloney to pitch for the Reds.

Jim Maloney being the other, of course (I don't think there is any relation).

I hope he doesn't stink up the joint.:D

He is the second Maloney but no relation, Jim could throw 98mph

HokieRed
06-04-2009, 08:36 PM
Let's hope he dominates like Jim Maloney. Most dominant Reds pitcher I've seen in watching Reds for 55 years.

reds44
06-04-2009, 08:43 PM
Maloney could come up and post a 5.50 ERA, but he's worth a shot. He doesn't have anything left to prove in Triple-A. I don't expect him to come up and dominate and I hope no one else does either.
For sure. Not sure if he has the stuff to stick in the majors, but eventually you have to find out what you have.

wheels
06-04-2009, 09:02 PM
For sure. Not sure if he has the stuff to stick in the majors, but eventually you have to find out what you have.

Jamie moyer says hello.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-04-2009, 09:13 PM
For sure. Not sure if he has the stuff to stick in the majors, but eventually you have to find out what you have.

He's done well at every level he's pitched at.

A ceiling of a #4-5 starter (possibly even #3)? Nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes I think we get too concerned with "stuff" and miss out on the solid pitchers that are right under our noses.

remdog
06-04-2009, 09:15 PM
Jamie moyer says hello.

Yikes! If Matt Maloney turns into Jamie Moyer I'll be in my 80's before he retires!

I'd like to see that but I'm not sure it's a good thing for me personally. :lol:

Rem

wheels
06-04-2009, 09:20 PM
Yikes! If Matt Maloney turns into Jamie Moyer I'll be in my 80's before he retires!

I'd like to see that but I'm not sure it's a good thing for me personally. :lol:

Rem
Talking bout his stuff, you goof.

OldXOhio
06-04-2009, 09:30 PM
What is this strange term you call "left handed starter"?

fearofpopvol1
06-04-2009, 09:34 PM
He's definitely earned it...there's no doubt about it.

Expectations are low...but outside of his actual "stuff," he does have a lot of the other intangibles. I hope he throws a no-hitter. The Reds need him to pitch well.

cincrazy
06-04-2009, 09:41 PM
What is this strange term you call "left handed starter"?

See Anderson, Jimmy ;)

jojo
06-04-2009, 10:19 PM
Jamie moyer says hello.

Yep and you cant win if you don't play.

reds44
06-04-2009, 10:20 PM
Not sure why everybody took what I said as a shot at Maloney, but ok.

AmarilloRed
06-04-2009, 10:25 PM
He'll have his chance. He does well enough, and he could be the one to stay when Volquez comes back.

LvJ
06-04-2009, 10:41 PM
See Anderson, Jimmy ;) Thanks a lot. Almost forgot that name. Almost.

LvJ
06-04-2009, 10:42 PM
FWIW, Moyer had an ERA over 5 his first two seasons :o

wheels
06-04-2009, 11:47 PM
FWIW, Moyer had an ERA over 5 his first two seasons :o

But he turned out pretty okay, didn't he?

LvJ
06-04-2009, 11:54 PM
But he turned out pretty okay, didn't he? Quite okay, indeed.

cincrazy
06-05-2009, 12:01 AM
Thanks a lot. Almost forgot that name. Almost.

John Reidling. Osvaldo Fernandez. Josias Manzanillo. Jimmy Haynes. The Ace, Elmer Dessens. Brandon Claussen.

So many names we've almost forgotten. Almost ;)

SMcGavin
06-05-2009, 02:31 AM
Hooray! Our next I71 Savior is Here.


Savior, or dude who is better than Micah Owings' 5.27 xFIP?

*BaseClogger*
06-05-2009, 02:42 AM
Savior, or dude who is better than Micah Owings' 5.27 xFIP?

I know what you are saying, but to take Owing's spot in the rotation Maloney is going to have to post an xFIP south of 5.00 due to Owings's bat...

SMcGavin
06-05-2009, 02:47 AM
I know what you are saying, but to take Owing's spot in the rotation Maloney is going to have to post an xFIP south of 5.00 due to Owings's bat...

That's fair. My point is that Maloney doesn't have to be Cy Young on the mound to justify why people were calling for him. I get very, very tired of people implying that anyone calling for a AAA guy is viewing said AAA guy as some savior.

Screwball
06-05-2009, 03:21 AM
That's fair. My point is that Maloney doesn't have to be Cy Young on the mound to justify why people were calling for him. I get very, very tired of people implying that anyone calling for a AAA guy is viewing said AAA guy as some savior.

Agreed. Pretty much every poster I've seen has gone out of their way to say Maloney's not a savior, but rather a guy who's earned his shot. It'll be tough, but I'd really like to see a guy who's paid his dues succeed.

Unfortunately for Maloney, his Major League debut is for the Reds, and not against them. ;)

Ltlabner
06-05-2009, 07:03 AM
Savior, or dude who is better than Micah Owings' 5.27 xFIP?

There's a long tradition of Reds fans waiting for the next big thing to get the call up and clamoring for it to happen. Maloney has earned his chance, but far too often fans think "if only _________ gets the call it's the piece we need".

I'm not saying that SMCGavin personally thinks this, but the history is clear.

redsmetz
06-05-2009, 08:17 AM
There's a long tradition of Reds fans waiting for the next big thing to get the call up and clamoring for it to happen. Maloney has earned his chance, but far too often fans think "if only _________ gets the call it's the piece we need".

I'm not saying that SMCGavin personally thinks this, but the history is clear.

I haven't weighed in, but I certainly wouldn't consider Maloney a "saviour" (nor would I Bailey). I will say this though, it's awful nice to know we've got talent available to call up and understand they're reasonably capable pitchers. Maloney certainly seems ready and I hope he does well. Depth, as folks have been saying for eons now, is good.

RedlegJake
06-05-2009, 08:32 AM
I can't wait for this game. Good or bad outcome for Matt and the Reds there are a few things I want to see.

Will his stuff compete at the ML level. There have been guys with similar repertoires who succeed but usually they pay their dues for a while at the big league level before honing their "craftiness" to a level that works consistently. He gets a solid lineup to be tested on.

Maloney has the control but does he have the command to make his brand of stuff work? Not just strikes but strikes in the right zones against the right hitters? Between him and the catcher they have to know how to set up each guy and then Matt has to hit the spots.

He's been great keeping the ball in the park in AAA. Can he do that in the bigs?

A lefty!! My goodness its been a long time. That alone makes me want to see this. Seeing a lefty starter on the Reds is like spotting a dodo bird in the polynesians.

He's a hard working good guy who has earned a shot. Yeah I know that "blue collar" label usually means mediocre talent or pedestrian results or worse. It's in the same label bin with "scrappy" and "hard-nosed" and "hustler". I can't help but like guys like that, though. It's much harder to identify with uber talented jocks who have more athleticism in their pinkie than I do in my whole body. I love the myth of the hard worker who wrings out the last drop of ability to compete well despite lack of native talent. Note I said Myth.

The Reds need a break this year. They've played so well, they don't quit, they fight but come on...Votto and Volquez at the same time? After a decade of futility that seems a cruel twist by the baseball gods. It'd be a fitting irony if a soft tossing lefty came up and pitched really well - even just long enough to get Volquie back.

It's a good year to get a shot for Matt. The Reds are near the top in defensive zone rating. They still make some errors but I'll take a great zone rating and the errors over few errors and a poor zone rating anyday. The OFers can get to the ball and that should help Maloney. Sending a guy with his kind of stuff out there with last June's outfield would have been a merciless act. If he doesn't walk guys and keeps it in the park they'll have to earn their hits. One of the things I've enjoyed this year is far fewer "freebie hits" allowed on balls hit to the outfield.

Finally, it's a chance to get a better handle on what the Reds have in Maloney. A good showing or two - and trade discussions involving Harang or Arroyo could really heat up near the deadline.

Chip R
06-05-2009, 09:20 AM
I wonder if Matt will be taking the Idiotmobile up from LOU. ;)

TRF
06-05-2009, 09:27 AM
I was clamoring for him because I was tired of seeing the Reds mishandle Homer Bailey at Matt's expense. Homer shouldn't have sniffed a callup based on his performance this year. his talent teases, but the execution is inconsistent. Too soon, too fast. All Matt Maloney has done is succeed and progress. He's having an outstanding season and has very good peripherals to go along with his gaudy era.

That said, he could get slammed in his 1st MLB start, but he earned the chance to be the first guy called when the season started, and Bailey didn't.

princeton
06-05-2009, 09:54 AM
I do think that the HR rate is key. If he can keep it in the park, then he offers tremendous value as a spot starter/long reliever, working behind a staff of righthanded starters.

the post-PED era likely helps him a LOT,as does the fact that the Reds have coddled him; maybe he's had enough time to figure out most of the small stuff. on the minus side: ballpark size

RANDY IN INDY
06-05-2009, 10:03 AM
If he follows Cueto in the rotation, he could prove to be effective. Soft tossing lefthander following a hard throwing righthander with all kinds of stuff and you might have something. I agree with those of you who said that his success will probably hinge on keeping the ball in the ballpark. Would like to see a lefthander in the rotation. Don't know if Maloney is the guy. Wish him the best.

HeatherC1212
06-05-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm glad that Matt is getting a chance to pitch this weekend. I'll be watching him on TV tomorrow night and I hope he has a great outing. :)

Bumstead
06-05-2009, 10:27 AM
Maloney has earned this opportunity and I hope he does well. I have my doubts but, you never know until you give the guy a chance.

Crash Davis
06-05-2009, 10:39 AM
I haven't weighed in, but I certainly wouldn't consider Maloney a "saviour" (nor would I Bailey). I will say this though, it's awful nice to know we've got talent available to call up and understand they're reasonably capable pitchers. Maloney certainly seems ready and I hope he does well. Depth, as folks have been saying for eons now, is good.

:thumbup:

Good point. It sure beats the days of rushing fringy prospects like Brian Reith from Double-A when they were clearly not ready to help.

SMcGavin
06-05-2009, 11:08 AM
I think Maloney's lack of stuff has been overblown. His fastball hits 90, his changeup was described as a plus changeup, and he throws four pitches, all of which he can throw for strikes. His career AAA K/9 is 8.5 (higher than Homer Bailey's). He's not Cueto in the stuff department but he's not Jamie Moyer either.

SMcGavin
06-05-2009, 11:11 AM
There's a long tradition of Reds fans waiting for the next big thing to get the call up and clamoring for it to happen. Maloney has earned his chance, but far too often fans think "if only _________ gets the call it's the piece we need".

I'm not saying that SMCGavin personally thinks this, but the history is clear.

I don't think a single person on Redszone thinks Matt Maloney is the missing piece the Reds need to contend. Literally, not one person. You're knocking down a strawman.

membengal
06-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I think the take from pretty much everyone on this thread is reasonable. Generally, it can be summarized as:

1. He's earned a look. If he doesn't get a look off of what he has accomplished this year, at his age and progression, it's a bad message to send to the rest of your minors.

2. His stuff doesn't project to set the world afire, but, hey, he might be plenty serviceable. Or not. Either way, we'll have a better gauge of whether he has a major league future and in what capacity. That's important.

3. New things are fun.

Glad he got the call. Looking forward to something new and shiny. Until the next new and shiny thing.

GoReds
06-05-2009, 11:20 AM
So, what is everyone projecting for his line for Saturday's game?

I'll go 6IP, 7H, 4ER, 2BB, 4K and will be happy with anything better.

redsmetz
06-05-2009, 11:24 AM
I think Maloney's lack of stuff has been overblown. His fastball hits 90, his changeup was described as a plus changeup, and he throws four pitches, all of which he can throw for strikes. His career AAA K/9 is 8.5 (higher than Homer Bailey's). He's not Cueto in the stuff department but he's not Jamie Moyer either.

And he's a lefty. I know I've shared this, but I had a friend who pitched at Xavier around the same age as Charlie Liebrandt. He and Liebrandt had essentially the same stuff, but Liebrandt could get by with the slower fastball because he was left handed. My friend signed a free agent contract with the Cardinals, went down to spring training and quit at the end of spring. He knew that ultimately topping in the high 80's as a right hander wasn't going to get him to the majors and decided it was time to move on to the next phase in his life. Maloney, hopefully, can get by topping out at that range because he's lefthanded.

TRF
06-05-2009, 11:32 AM
I'm glad that Matt is getting a chance to pitch this weekend. I'll be watching him on TV tomorrow night and I hope he has a great outing. :)

The game is on WGN for those out of market Dish Network Subscribers.

TRF
06-05-2009, 11:34 AM
So, what is everyone projecting for his line for Saturday's game?

I'll go 6IP, 7H, 4ER, 2BB, 4K and will be happy with anything better.

8IP 11K's 0BB's 1ER.

or not. :)

Bumstead
06-05-2009, 11:40 AM
I think Membengal summed it up best. I also think comparing a 26 year-old pitcher making his major league debut to Jamie Moyer, a 250-ish game winner, is way premature. We'll see how his 'stuff' translates; let the comparisons come after he actually establishes himself (if he does that). Jamie Moyer has had a great career and has been a really good pitcher; I realize it's hard to believe that when you see him pitch, but he seems to be under-appreciated for what he has been able to accomplish with the tools that he has had to work with.

I really hope Maloney does well and proves us skeptics wrong.

Bum

LincolnparkRed
06-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Also note for that a righty dominated lineup the Cubs have, they are 5-5 versus lefty starters with loses to Doug Davis and an old redszone favorite Eric Milton.

princeton
06-05-2009, 12:51 PM
I also think comparing a 26 year-old pitcher making his major league debut to Jamie Moyer, a 250-ish game winner, is way premature. We'll see how his 'stuff' translates; let the comparisons come after he actually establishes himself (if he does that). Jamie Moyer has had a great career and has been a really good pitcher; I realize it's hard to believe that when you see him pitch, but he seems to be under-appreciated for what he has been able to accomplish with the tools that he has had to work with.

Jamie Moyer is the greatest pitcher in baseball history, IMO

Ltlabner
06-05-2009, 12:57 PM
I don't think a single person on Redszone thinks Matt Maloney is the missing piece the Reds need to contend. Literally, not one person. You're knocking down a strawman.

You are correct...nobody has typed the exact words 'We need MM to contend' or 'Matt is our savior'.

But every year a few players in Louisville are targeted as the guy who ought to be on he big club in place of (insert other players name). We read 'why is X on the team when Y is wasting away in Louisville'. Some years its Chris Denorfia, other years its Eric Dickerson while others its a Homer Baily.

Right now its simply Maloneys turn and the chatter regarding him has definatley been on the uptick reciently whether you've noticed it or not.

I think its great that he's getting his shot and for his sake and ours I hope he does well. I also welcome the FO's willingness to try something new.

Eric_the_Red
06-05-2009, 01:01 PM
You are correct...nobody has typed the exact words 'We need MM to contend' or 'Matt is our savior'.

But every year a few players in Louisville are targeted as the guy who ought to be on he big club in place of (insert other players name). We read 'why is X on the team when Y is wasting away in Louisville'. Some years its Chris Denorfia, other years its Eric Dickerson while others its a Homer Baily.

Right now its simply Maloneys turn and the chatter regarding him has definatley been on the uptick reciently whether you've noticed it or not.

I think its great that he's getting his shot and for his sake and ours I hope he does well. I also welcome the FO's willingness to try something new.

I don't think Eric Dickerson could ever have helped the Reds. The Bengals maybe. ;)

Ltlabner
06-05-2009, 01:07 PM
I don't think Eric Dickerson could ever have helped the Reds. The Bengals maybe. ;)

Thats how crazy things can get when the Reds are struggling and people are clammoring for kids in Louisville. They'll target anybody! ;)

My bad.

RANDY IN INDY
06-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Seems to me that it is nothing more than a "AAA" pitcher, performing well and because of injuries, getting his chance to make an impression at the big league level. Happens all over the big leagues every year. Anything more than that is just fan hype at this point. I hope he does well. If he doesn't, someone else will get a chance. It's called making the most of your opportunities. Some take advantage. Some don't.

jojo
06-05-2009, 01:19 PM
Maloney probably gives the Reds the best chance to win Saturday. His walk rate has been insane so in the very least you'd expect him to pass the requisite command threshold.

His schedule aligns as well.

The Cubbies don't feast on lefties but lefties aren't kryptonite for them either.

In the grand scheme of things this wasn't a decision of tremendous import.

Bumstead
06-05-2009, 01:23 PM
Jamie Moyer is the greatest pitcher in baseball history, IMO

Funny Princeton! :D He is under-appreciated though!

princeton
06-05-2009, 01:29 PM
Funny Princeton!


dead serious. the guy's the best ever. he knows and executes pitching better than anyone I've ever seen.

westofyou
06-05-2009, 01:30 PM
dead serious. the guy's the best ever. he knows and executes pitching better than anyone I've ever seen.

He's the Slim Sallee of our lifetime!!

kaldaniels
06-05-2009, 01:40 PM
dead serious. the guy's the best ever. he knows and executes pitching better than anyone I've ever seen.

He's in definite contention for the guy who has done the most with the least...but that's a bit much princeton. Wayyyyyy too much. To each his own however. :D

RedlegJake
06-05-2009, 01:42 PM
dead serious. the guy's the best ever. he knows and executes pitching better than anyone I've ever seen.

In the context of getting the most of his stuff, and knowing the craft of pitching, as opposed to just rearin' back and blowing guys away, I'm inclined to agree. When you talk about a guy learning the art of pitching Moyer is the perfect example.

princeton
06-05-2009, 01:53 PM
I've seen better control than Moyer's. I've seen better sink, better movement, WAY better velocity. I've heard that he fools hitters, hides it well, but all of his pitches do about the same thing, the speed is s-l-o-w, and the speed differences aren't very large. he's not fooling anyone; they just can't hit him very well.

how his stuff works is beyond me. people have tried to explain it to me but it's clear that they're not real sure, and wouldn't advocate the approach to anyone else. you teach different speeds, you teach movement, you teach velocity. you don't teach Moyer.

Maloney = Moyer? when Moyer's gone, he's extinct IMO.

traderumor
06-05-2009, 01:58 PM
I've seen better control than Moyer's. I've seen better sink, better movement, WAY better velocity. I've heard that he fools hitters, hides it well, but all of his pitches do about the same thing, the speed is s-l-o-w, and the speed differences aren't very large. he's not fooling anyone; they just can't hit him very well.

how his stuff works is beyond me. people have tried to explain it to me but it's clear that they're not real sure, and wouldn't advocate the approach to anyone else. you teach different speeds, you teach movement, you teach velocity. you don't teach Moyer.

Maloney = Moyer? when Moyer's gone, he's extinct IMO.His righty version the last few years has been Trevor Hoffman. He has nothing. Still getting people out and making some cool millions. Artistry is my explanation.

Bumstead
06-05-2009, 01:58 PM
Just looked at Moyer's stats again (for about the 3000th time) and I was amazed (again) to realize that at the age of 40! he won 21 games and finished 5th in the AL Cy Young voting (could have been 3rd if he wasn't named 'Jamie Moyer')! Incredible; you are right.

Kc61
06-05-2009, 02:02 PM
I don't see the comparison between Maloney and Jamie Moyer. Every pitcher who doesn't have top velocity is not a Jamie Moyer clone. Moyer is a unique type picher, from what I've read Maloney isn't like that.

From what I've read, Maloney is a possible lefty Bronson Arroyo. Has the secondary pitches and control to succeed. Question is whether the fastball is good enough to keep hitters honest.

When Arroyo's fastball isn't in the 88-90 range, he has problems. Hitters just focus on the junk, they don't worry about the fastball. But when his fastball is good enough to keep them honest, he's effective. Maloney seems similar, from the left hand side.

I'm looking forward to these starts by Maloney, hopefully plural, because he's really earned it. It took him awhile to master AAA, but this year he's been dominant there and he seems ready. He needs to keep the ball in the park, and then he'll probably be ok.

Eric_the_Red
06-05-2009, 02:06 PM
I always enjoyed watching Greg Maddux pitch, even when he was with the Cubs and Braves- my most hated teams, for much the same reason. He understood pitching better than anyone, and had tremendous control. He wasn't a flamethrower but he knew how to set-up batters and get outs.

jojo
06-05-2009, 02:10 PM
I always enjoyed watching Greg Maddux pitch, even when he was with the Cubs and Braves- my most hated teams, for much the same reason. He understood pitching better than anyone, and had tremendous control. He wasn't a flamethrower but he knew how to set-up batters and get outs.

He also got an extra 6 inches on the inside of the plate and another foot on the outside.... the strikezone during the height of his success as a Brave shouldve been a bigger controversy than PEDs..... :cool:

westofyou
06-05-2009, 02:11 PM
Maloney may not be like Moyer now, but Moyer has been around forever and when he was young he was a different guy, that said Maloney should hope he's like Moyer, 72-79 before he hit 33 and 174-106 since.

Moyer is the classic upset timing lefty, in the late 80's he was a high 80's FB guy and 10 years later low 80's. Jerry Hairston said his fastball (in 2002) was about the speed of the rest of the leagues CU and his CU was about 72 miles an hour, you try an attack the ball and it's not there yet.

He will throw that pitch at any batter in any situation with any count imaginable.

pedro
06-05-2009, 02:13 PM
He also got an extra 6 inches on the inside of the plate and another foot on the outside.... the strikezone during the height of his success as a Brave shouldve been a bigger controversy than PEDs..... :cool:

That's hyperbole. I've watched Maddux pitch more than any other pitcher as I lived in Atlanta during his entire run there and that's just not true. I agree that the strike zone during the 90's was inconsistent and that a lot of pitchers got away with outside pitches being called strikes but to claim Maddux, or anyone else, routinely got 18 extra inches is just ridiculous.

RANDY IN INDY
06-05-2009, 02:19 PM
That's hyperbole. I've watched Maddux pitch more than any other pitcher as I lived in Atlanta during his entire run there and that's just not true. I agree that the strike zone during the 90's was inconsistent and that a lot of pitchers got away with outside pitches being called strikes but to claim Maddux, or anyone else, routinely got 18 extra inches is just ridiculous.

Like all good pitchers, Maddux got the calls when he needed them. If there was a little doubt, Maddux usually would get the call. When you are around the plate as much as Maddux, that should be the case. 18 inches is a little out there.

westofyou
06-05-2009, 02:21 PM
Like all good pitchers, Maddux got the calls when he needed them. If there was a little doubt, Maddux usually would get the call. When you are around the plate as much as Maddux, that should be the case. 18 inches is a little out there.

Hit the spot, hit the spot, hit the spot... gain respect.

jojo
06-05-2009, 02:32 PM
That's hyperbole.

Yes.

princeton
06-05-2009, 02:49 PM
His righty version the last few years has been Trevor Hoffman. He has nothing. Still getting people out and making some cool millions. Artistry is my explanation.

but I understand Hoffman. His fastball and changeup have big speed difference, and the pitches move differently. The breaking ball is pretty much same speed as fastball but moves differently. that's an approach that makes sense to me. Plus you never see more than 4 pitches from him, and he follows pitchers that look different. I can see why you can't get a bat on him.

Moyer, I can't figure. You get to bat against him three times, you've seen nobody but him, and everything that he throws is basically the same, with a little wrinkle.

voodoo

mth123
06-05-2009, 02:54 PM
but I understand Hoffman. His fastball and changeup have big speed difference, and the pitches move differently. The breaking ball is pretty much same speed as fastball but moves differently. that's an approach that makes sense to me. Plus you never see more than 4 pitches from him, and he follows pitchers that look different. I can see why you can't get a bat on him.

Moyer, I can't figure. You get to bat against him three times, you've seen nobody but him, and everything that he throws is basically the same, with a little wrinkle.

voodoo

Location, location, location.

jojo
06-05-2009, 03:02 PM
but I understand Hoffman. His fastball and changeup have big speed difference, and the pitches move differently.

Ya Hoffman has a devastating changeup.

Rojo
06-05-2009, 03:26 PM
but I understand Hoffman. His fastball and changeup have big speed difference, and the pitches move differently. The breaking ball is pretty much same speed as fastball but moves differently. that's an approach that makes sense to me. Plus you never see more than 4 pitches from him, and he follows pitchers that look different. I can see why you can't get a bat on him.

Moyer, I can't figure. You get to bat against him three times, you've seen nobody but him, and everything that he throws is basically the same, with a little wrinkle.

voodoo

I tried to figure it out during the Series and my pedestrian observations:

First, he works up more than you'd expect. After the power explosion of the 80's, pitchers tried to compensate by "keeping the ball down". The hitters adjusted, and adjusted well. A lot of hitters now don't know what to do with balls up. Pete Harnisch had some success with this approach.

Second, as a fan, I realize that I expect certain pitches subconscously and Moyer fouls that up utterly. Lots of guys pitch backwards, Moyer pitches backwards, forwards, sideways and fractal.....ways.

westofyou
06-05-2009, 03:29 PM
I tried to figure it out during the Series and my pedestrian observations:

First, he works up more than you'd expect. After the power explosion of the 80's, pitchers tried to compensate by "keeping the ball down". The hitters adjusted, and adjusted well. A lot of hitters now don't know what to do with balls up. Pete Harnisch had some success with this approach.

Second, as a fan, I realize that I expect certain pitches subconscously and Moyer fouls that up utterly. Lots of guys pitch backwards, Moyer pitches backwards, forwards, sideways and fractal.....ways.

He also has pitches that play better against RH than LH's a rarity for the LH pitcher

wheels
06-05-2009, 05:10 PM
Wow. You guys are super literal.

Reds44 or 4451 or whatever said maloneys stuff wasn't good enough to stick.

I brought up Moyer as an example not a comparison.

Its about guys that can survive without classic 95 mph gas.

reds44
06-05-2009, 06:02 PM
I never said Maloney's stuff wasn't good enough to stick, never. I said I wasn't sure if it was or not. I'm not sure why people are taking that as me bashing Maloney or saying he won't be succesful.

RED VAN HOT
06-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Interesting thread...

I have a soft spot for players who appear to be simply average, but nevertheless manage to figure out and adapt to each new level. I see both Maloney and Janish as current examples. Until his breakout this year, I would have put Heisey in that category as well. Their tenure in the bigs often depends on the length of the audition afforded them.

It is even harder for organizations to permt a starting pitcher to learn at the major league level. Poor starts not only produce losses, but also can disrupt the bull pen and have a cascading effect. That said, I feel that the spring training chances given Maloney over the last two years have been far too brief to make an evaluation. His success seems to depend on honing his control. A few innings in early March is not the best showcase. Unfortunately, I think he will be under the gun to produce quickly...two starts at most.

Princeton's description of Moyer reminds me of what was said about Herrera when the Reds acquired him. No one understood how he was successful, only that he was. Sometimes you run out of arguments against success.

Regarding Maddox, I was more frustrated by the announcers than the umpires. On more than one occasion following a pitch that obviously was outside of the strike zone, an announcer could be heard to say that when you are consistent, you get those calls. What?

Finally, having watched Trevor here in San Diego for many years, his change up was indeed devasting. The bottom dropped out as dramatically as a Bruce Sutter split finger pitch. He is also a fierce competitor. The night he broke the all time saves record was the most exhilarating I have spent in a ball park...one of those great moments that reminds you how much you really love the game.

AmarilloRed
06-05-2009, 09:05 PM
A pitcher who does not have dominating stuff has to do 3 things to stick in the major leagues: don't walk guys, don't give up the HR ball, and get some strikeouts. If Maloney can do that on Saturday, he should be OK. He did it in Louisville this year; I'm hoping he can do it in the major leagues.

Rojo
06-05-2009, 10:01 PM
Sometimes you run out of arguments against success.

Or as economists say, "that's all well and good in practise but how does it work in theory?"

wheels
06-05-2009, 11:36 PM
I never said Maloney's stuff wasn't good enough to stick, never. I said I wasn't sure if it was or not. I'm not sure why people are taking that as me bashing Maloney or saying he won't be succesful.

Oh I don't think you're bashing him at all. It was just conversational stuff.

Sorry if you took it that way.

WVRedsFan
06-06-2009, 01:40 AM
I wish Matt the best tomorrow (or really today). I don't know what will happen, but this series is shaping up as a total disaster. Matt could pitch a gem tomorrow (6 IP with 2 runs or less like Owings did last night) and still the Reds could be 0-2 in the series. It speaks volumes that the man who led this team and the only one who was hitting with authority is on the DL. Votto was the man and kept the Reds above water all season and now that he's gone...

BearcatShane
06-06-2009, 12:24 PM
I just looked back at this thread and I couldn't find it, so what kind of "stuff" does Maloney have exactly? I think he K's a good number of people in AAA and his lack of walks are impressive.

Brutus
06-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I just looked back at this thread and I couldn't find it, so what kind of "stuff" does Maloney have exactly? I think he K's a good number of people in AAA and his lack of walks are impressive.

I believe he has a good curveball and a pretty good changeup. Problem is, he does not have any "out' pitches that are believed to be able to get major league hitters out by missing bats.

Clearly he was striking out AAA hitters. It's time to see if the 'book' on Maloney is correct.

I myself believe production at AAA speaks for itself, usually. He was doing the things down there people say he cannot do up in Cincinnati. Sometimes guys just know how to pitch and will get people out. I have believed in Maloney since last year. I guess tonight we start to learn something.

cincrazy
06-06-2009, 12:55 PM
A lot of pressure on Maloney today. Not how I want to see him making his first start. The team is on a slide, the offense has done a disappearing act, and the Cubbies are on the other side. Hopefully he handles this well, it'll be a good test no doubt.

BearcatShane
06-06-2009, 12:57 PM
The Cubs offense doesn't really scare me.

cincrazy
06-06-2009, 01:05 PM
The Cubs offense doesn't really scare me.

It doesn't really scare me either, but when you're a young pitcher making your first career start with no offense and a bandbox of a ballpark, Soriano, Soto, Lee and others can be enough to cause a loss of sleep.

Screwball
06-06-2009, 05:38 PM
A pitcher who does not have dominating stuff has to do 3 things to stick in the major leagues: don't walk guys, don't give up the HR ball, and get some strikeouts.

I'd argue that's the recipe for success for any pitcher, regardless of stuff.

I think what you mean is that, like most pitchers, he needs to hit his spots. He can't get away with mistakes like, say, Cueto or Volquez would. However, given his exceptional walk numbers in the minors, he really does set up to be an effective pitcher at this level.

Remember, location is the most imporatant part of pitching. He won't be featured on ESPN anytime soon, but he very well could carve out a nice career with his solid command.

jojo
06-06-2009, 06:08 PM
Whether ya love or "meh" Maloney, every one of us wishes we were him tonight....

Screwball
06-06-2009, 06:51 PM
Whether ya love or "meh" Maloney, every one of us wishes we were him tonight....

Mark Mallory doesn't. ;)

Degenerate39
06-06-2009, 06:53 PM
There's a long tradition of Reds fans waiting for the next big thing to get the call up and clamoring for it to happen. Maloney has earned his chance, but far too often fans think "if only _________ gets the call it's the piece we need".

I'm not saying that SMCGavin personally thinks this, but the history is clear.

I'm guessing Stubbs or Frazier will be the next on that list

fearofpopvol1
06-06-2009, 06:57 PM
Whether ya love or "meh" Maloney, every one of us wishes we were him tonight....

yep. and wishes him well too. i hope he does great.

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2009, 07:24 PM
I didn't even know Maloney lives here in Columbus. I'm liking him more and more. ;-)

membengal
06-06-2009, 07:36 PM
I just have such a hard time figuring lefties.

Tom Browning sure didn't break any radar guns when he came up to Cincy, but certainly fashioned a wonderful career.

OnBaseMachine
06-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Maloney threw a very, very good game tonight: 6 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 1 BB, 4 K

Unfortunately, the Reds awful offense + David Weathers blew the win for him.

Joseph
06-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Nice debut for the kid. Let's hope he's got some more of those performances in his left arm.

RedlegJake
06-06-2009, 11:14 PM
After watching the game I'll say this. Maloney is a pitcher. He thinks, he has an idea, he sets hitters up. He doesn't rattle. His stuff is marginal except - his changeup is better than advertised and I love the way he uses the fastball out of the zone to set it up. That change is good enough to be the "out" pitch that people claimed he didn't have. Very good debut! And he appears to have an idea what he wants to do at the plate too, at least he won't get cheated swinging. Took some good cuts.

TheNext44
06-06-2009, 11:27 PM
I liked that he had no problem coming inside to righties. That usually is the weak link for lefties. They stay on that outside corner to much, then become too predictable and get hit hard.

All successful lefites have the confidence to pitch high and tight to righties, including hitters with power. Maloney was not afraid to do that tonight. Let's hope he can keep it up.

:thumbup:

cumberlandreds
06-06-2009, 11:29 PM
A very nice debut for Maloney. He looks like he has a good idea on how to pitch and set up hitters. You don't see that a lot from rookie pitchers. No he doesn't have much speed but there have been plenty of good pitchers that didn't either. We'll see how it works out in the long run but for one night he was very good.

RedlegJake
06-06-2009, 11:34 PM
I liked that he had no problem coming inside to righties. That usually is the weak link for lefties. They stay on that outside corner to much, then become too predictable and get hit hard.

All successful lefites have the confidence to pitch high and tight to righties, including hitters with power. Maloney was not afraid to do that tonight. Let's hope he can keep it up.

:thumbup:

You're right on. He pitched inside several times, right at the waist too where its so tempting to turn on it but if they swing the most they likely get is a foul ball or jammed on the handle. Then cut the corner low on the outside. Then climb the stairs with a fastball in the eyes, then a changeup down and in again. It was definitely fun watching him pitch.

wheels
06-07-2009, 12:04 AM
Did anyone read what I wrote about him a few days ago both in this thread and in the third baseman thread?

Time to give credit when credit is due.

Haw.

Grandview couldn't be more proud of our guy.

WVRedsFan
06-07-2009, 01:42 AM
I watched tonight (between gagging at our ineffective offense) and just marveled on how much more Matt Maloney knows about pitching than Homer Bailey. How many times have we seen Homer come up with the same result? He gets bombed, goes back down and still this club protects him like the Jewell of the Nile. The we bring up kids like Maloney who doesn't have the "stuff" that Bailey does and we poo-poo any performance he has with words like lucky and soft-tossing. Who cares. The PC thing to do is to look at strikeouts. He struck out 4 in 8 innings while allowing 6 hits, 2 earned runs, walked only one and leaves the game with 89 pitches. And we wanted to trade him and keep Homer when we could have had Jermaine Dye (who among other things might have provided some offense for this team that needs offense so bad).

I pray to the Almighty above that they were right in not trading Homer, and I pray to the same one that kids like Maloney get a better chance in the majors.

wheels
06-07-2009, 01:46 AM
I watched tonight (between gagging at our ineffective offense) and just marveled on how much more Matt Maloney knows about pitching than Homer Bailey. How many times have we seen Homer come up with the same result? He gets bombed, goes back down and still this club protects him like the Jewell of the Nile. The we bring up kids like Maloney who doesn't have the "stuff" that Bailey does and we poo-poo any performance he has with words like lucky and soft-tossing. Who cares. The PC thing to do is to look at strikeouts. He struck out 4 in 8 innings while allowing 6 hits, 2 earned runs, walked only one and leaves the game with 89 pitches. And we wanted to trade him and keep Homer when we could have had Jermaine Dye (who among other things might have provided some offense for this team that needs offense so bad).

I pray to the Almighty above that they were right in not trading Homer, and I pray to the same one that kids like Maloney get a better chance in the majors.

Best. Post. Ever.

reds44
06-07-2009, 01:50 AM
I watched tonight (between gagging at our ineffective offense) and just marveled on how much more Matt Maloney knows about pitching than Homer Bailey. How many times have we seen Homer come up with the same result? He gets bombed, goes back down and still this club protects him like the Jewell of the Nile. The we bring up kids like Maloney who doesn't have the "stuff" that Bailey does and we poo-poo any performance he has with words like lucky and soft-tossing. Who cares. The PC thing to do is to look at strikeouts. He struck out 4 in 8 innings while allowing 6 hits, 2 earned runs, walked only one and leaves the game with 89 pitches. And we wanted to trade him and keep Homer when we could have had Jermaine Dye (who among other things might have provided some offense for this team that needs offense so bad).

I pray to the Almighty above that they were right in not trading Homer, and I pray to the same one that kids like Maloney get a better chance in the majors.
I think the Reds can combine Yonder and Homer and get any hitter they want at the deadline.

WVRedsFan
06-07-2009, 02:17 AM
I think the Reds can combine Yonder and Homer and get any hitter they want at the deadline.

But will they? The answser is no. They will hold on to that "potential" until Home is 35 and still has a 4.50 ERA.

Sad to say, but it's time to cut bait and get some hitting.

Mario-Rijo
06-07-2009, 02:24 AM
After watching the game I'll say this. Maloney is a pitcher. He thinks, he has an idea, he sets hitters up. He doesn't rattle. His stuff is marginal except - his changeup is better than advertised and I love the way he uses the fastball out of the zone to set it up. That change is good enough to be the "out" pitch that people claimed he didn't have. Very good debut! And he appears to have an idea what he wants to do at the plate too, at least he won't get cheated swinging. Took some good cuts.


I liked that he had no problem coming inside to righties. That usually is the weak link for lefties. They stay on that outside corner to much, then become too predictable and get hit hard.

All successful lefites have the confidence to pitch high and tight to righties, including hitters with power. Maloney was not afraid to do that tonight. Let's hope he can keep it up.

:thumbup:

Spot on stuff! Maloney is a much better option than Homer right now. He keeps the ball down, changes speeds and keeps throwing all over the zone and he could hang around. He's gonna give up some lasers but I think he could be a fair #5 if he had too.

*BaseClogger*
06-07-2009, 02:48 AM
I can only imagine how excited SMcGavin must be about Maloney's debut... ;)

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2009, 03:48 AM
It was a good debut for the kid -- he pitched himself out of trouble, showed poise on the mound, and got some great defense behind him.

The real trick is doing it again now that there is tape of him that other teams can look at in advance of his next start. Anyone can fool the big leagues once if they've never seen your stuff or looked at your tendencies before.

membengal
06-07-2009, 09:05 AM
For those of you curious about Matt Maloney and how he got here, I commend to you this write-up from John Sickels. It is a ridiculously good read:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/6/5/900392/prospect-profile-matt-maloney


Matt Maloney was drafted by the Phillies in the third round in 2005, from the University of Mississippi. He was very successful in college, posting a 3.11 ERA with a 111/26 K/BB in 104 innings his junior year, but lasted until the third round due to an average fastball. He performed fairly well in short-season ball, with a 3.89 ERA and a 36/15 K/BB in 37 innings for Batavia in the New York-Penn League. I gave him a Grade C+ in the 2006 book, writing that as a college-trained finesse pitcher, he should do well in A-ball, but that Double-A would be the real test.

The Phillies sent Maloney to Lakewood in the Sally League in '06. He was brilliant, going 16-9, 2.03 with a 180/73 K/BB in 169 innings, 120 hits allowed. The walk rate was higher than ideal, but his K/IP and hit rates were excellent, even though his fastball was just 85-89 MPH. His curve, slider, and changeup were all solid. I gave him a Grade B- in the '07 book, still wondering how he would transition to Double-A.

The Phillies wondered that too, so they jumped him up to Reading in 2007, skipping the High-A level. He was still effective at the higher level, with a 3.94 ERA and a 115/45 K/BB in 126 innings with 117 hits allowed. Traded to the Reds for in the Kyle Lohse deal that July, he made a parallel move to Double-A Chattanooga after the trade, posting a 2.57 ERA and a sharp 39/3 K/BB in 28 innings. The Reds moved up to Triple-A in late August and he continued to perform very well, with a 3.18 ERA and a 23/6 K/BB in 17 innings.

Maloney's velocity picked up a bit in '07, still not great at 86-91. But his slider and changeup improved, and his command proved very strong even against advanced minor league competition. I gave him a Grade B in the 2008 book, writing that he was one of my favorite finesse pitchers.

Assigned to Triple-A to begin 2008, he went 11-5 and posted a fine 132/39 K/BB in 140 innings. His hit rate went up and he gave up 18 homers, boosting his ERA to 4.68. Despite this, I was still pretty sanguine about him in the book this year, writing that "I like Maloney more than most other analysts do" and that he could be a decent number four starter. I also warned that he had no clear opportunity in Cincinnati. I did lower his rating to Grade C+.

Maloney has been terrific for Louisville this year, with a 2.00 ERA and a 58/9 K/BB in 67 innings with 60 hits allowed. He was particularly outstanding in his last start, fanning 10 with zero walks and just three hits against Scranton on June 1st. Maloney is getting his chance in the majors now. Questions to consider: how will his command transition to the majors? Will his fly ball tendencies result in excessive home runs in the majors?

Although he doesn't have the hot fastball, his K/IP and hit rates are those of a power pitcher, and that's a very positive sign. He has nothing left to prove at the minor league level. Given sufficient adjustment time, I think he will surprise some people. Prediction for his first start: 6 innings, 6 hits, 2 runs, one homer allowed, one walk, three strikeouts, victory.

John Sickles. Seer.

His ridiculously good prediction for the first start aside, I submit there is enough really good stuff associated with Maloney to view him as being perhaps a different breed of lefty than the Dumatrait's of the world that Cincy has trotted out over the last several years.

I am somewhat optimistic about his chances of being a real asset to this rotation.

Chip R
06-07-2009, 09:34 AM
I thought he did great last night. He didn't pitch scared either - which a lot of guys still do, even veterans. I don't want to harsh anyone's buzz here but CE is right. Teams have video of him now and word is going to spread like wildfire about him. If the rotation holds, he'll pitch against the Nats on Thursday. They may not be that good of a team but they beat the snot out of the Mets last night.

If you are projecting Maloney to be a #4 or #5 starter, then he's not going to pitch like this every time out. That was a #2 or #3 performance. However, if he's really a #4 or #5 guy, then he's going to have some rough outings. Rough enough for the folks who praised him on here to curse him as another soft tossing lefty. Rough enough for those same people to want to trade him for a bag of balls.

redsmetz
06-07-2009, 09:42 AM
For those of you curious about Matt Maloney and how he got here, I commend to you this write-up from John Sickels. It is a ridiculously good read:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/6/5/900392/prospect-profile-matt-maloney



John Sickles. Seer.

His ridiculously good prediction for the first start aside, I submit there is enough really good stuff associated with Maloney to view him as being perhaps a different breed of lefty than the Dumatrait's of the world that Cincy has trotted out over the last several years.

I am somewhat optimistic about his chances of being a real asset to this rotation.

Holy Cow! Sickles was only off on the K's (actual 4 to predice 3) and home runs allowed (2 actual to 1 predicted) and the win itself (due to an uncharacteristic blown save by DW). Kudos to Sickles and thanks for sharing that.

membengal
06-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Even better, if Maloney had been lifted without facing the batter in the 7th, Sickles would have had that runs allowed and it coming on a home run dead on.

Really, that's just a stupid good prediction from Sickles.

The rest of the write-up is what I find fascinating.

At the least, super-good value for Lohse at the deadline a few years ago.

SMcGavin
06-07-2009, 11:52 AM
I can only imagine how excited SMcGavin must be about Maloney's debut... ;)

Haha, I enjoyed last night's game quite a bit. That debut was a long time coming for Maloney and he did not disappoint. His command is fantastic, he walked only one batter and it seemed like a semi-intentional one at that. His fastball sits in the 80s but he dials it up to a decent level in high-leverage spots (with the bases loaded in the 2nd he threw five fastballs - 91, 89, 90, 89, 91). I thought the fuss made over his suprisingly good changeup was kind of funny... a 90 MPH fastball isn't all that fast in AAA either and he was destroying that league, so clearly he had something else going for him down there that hitters couldn't hit. Now I think we know what that was.

I don't know exactly what the story on Volquez's injury is, but it would be nice to see Maloney for 2-3 more starts. They are not going to give him Owings' rotation spot just based on this start, but if he has a couple more good ones I think it'd be really hard to send him down when Volquez comes back.

At the very least, he's established himself as a better pitcher than Bailey, so he'll be the first choice when injuries inevitably strike as the season goes on. It's way, way too early to call "scoreboard" on Maloney's success at the MLB level, but last night was a good start. Let's hope there is more of that in his future.

I thought DRH coming in right after him was pretty cool too. Two "no stuff" guys that RZ has pretty much ignored (I don't think either made the Redszone top 15 prospects a couple of months ago) combining for 7 innings of 2 run ball. A really fun game to watch.

mth123
06-07-2009, 12:13 PM
VolqueZ is on the second of back to back 15 day DL stints with only 1 IP in between. I think he'll need a couple rehab starts at a minimum. If so, Maloney probably has three more starts to make himself a fixture. Good luck to him. It would be great for the Reds.

RedsManRick
06-07-2009, 12:57 PM
It was definitely great to see how things turned out for Maloney last night, but let's be real about one thing: the ability to escape trouble on the mound is right there with the ability to influence batting average on balls in play. Yeah, some pitchers are slightly better than others, but in the long run, they don't have much control over it.

I'm glad that Maloney didn't implode in pressure situations, but I'd much prefer he not get himself in to those jams to begin with. Pitching yourself in to and out of jams is not a recipe for success. If one of those homers had come earlier in the game, we could be talking about how Maloney couldn't hack it up here and how we need to keep looking.

I think what we did see from Maloney is the his stuff will generally play as a crafty lefty at the back of the rotation and that he has the maturity to know how to get the most out of his ability; those few extra years of experience can do a lot for a players mental approach. But let's be careful about drawing too much of a conclusion from a fairly small sample.

AmarilloRed
06-07-2009, 12:59 PM
Maloney gave up 2 solo HRs in yesterday's game. Any concerns that this could be a problem for him in GABP going forward?

jojo
06-07-2009, 01:02 PM
Maloney gave up 2 solo HRs in yesterday's game. Any concerns that this could be a problem for him in GABP going forward?

Yes.

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2009, 01:08 PM
Maloney gave up 2 solo HRs in yesterday's game. Any concerns that this could be a problem for him in GABP going forward?

Not really.

One of his HR pitches was to a career minor leaguer on a hanging breaking ball that would've been a home run in any stadium. You can't say much about that HR other than "Don't ever, under any circumstances, make a pitch like that again." The other was a high fastball to a high fastball hitter, and I think you chalk that one up to "read the scouting reports better next time instead of sitting up thinking about not screwing up your first big league start."

It's hard to judge tendencies off one game, especially a first game where there is so much going on, mentally, in the back of someone's mind.

SMcGavin
06-07-2009, 01:48 PM
It was definitely great to see how things turned out for Maloney last night, but let's be real about one thing: the ability to escape trouble on the mound is right there with the ability to influence batting average on balls in play. Yeah, some pitchers are slightly better than others, but in the long run, they don't have much control over it.

I'm glad that Maloney didn't implode in pressure situations, but I'd much prefer he not get himself in to those jams to begin with. Pitching yourself in to and out of jams is not a recipe for success. If one of those homers had come earlier in the game, we could be talking about how Maloney couldn't hack it up here and how we need to keep looking.

I think what we did see from Maloney is the his stuff will generally play as a crafty lefty at the back of the rotation and that he has the maturity to know how to get the most out of his ability; those few extra years of experience can do a lot for a players mental approach. But let's be careful about drawing too much of a conclusion from a fairly small sample.

He really didn't pitch himself into jams. The first inning two men got on base, one of which was Theriot getting beaned on a ball that was over the plate but high. Hard to fault Maloney on that one. The second inning jam happens happens only because Hairston makes an error.

He allowed 7 baserunners in 6+ innings - that's exactly what he needs to do to succeed. 4 K vs 1 BB is getting the job done. He's going to give up some HRs and to survive that he needs to keep the bases relatively empty. He did that last night.

fearofpopvol1
06-07-2009, 02:26 PM
He really didn't pitch himself into jams. The first inning two men got on base, one of which was Theriot getting beaned on a ball that was over the plate but high. Hard to fault Maloney on that one. The second inning jam happens happens only because Hairston makes an error.

He allowed 7 baserunners in 6+ innings - that's exactly what he needs to do to succeed. 4 K vs 1 BB is getting the job done. He's going to give up some HRs and to survive that he needs to keep the bases relatively empty. He did that last night.

I agree with this.

After seeing him pitch, he's not a savior for Cincinnati or anything...but, I think as a 5 guy or something, he'd be fine. He really look polished on the mound. He didn't get rattled...and he was very crafty. His control was great and each pitch had a purpose. His changeup was very good too. Despite what has been said, I think it is an out pitch.

If nothing else...I think he increased his value. If the Reds don't plan on keeping him in the rotation, they should move him now. He is major league ready and can help another team. Surely the Reds can get something of value back for him. I could see the Reds hanging on to him for depth purposes, which is fine, but he's ready to pitch at The Show now.

RED VAN HOT
06-07-2009, 04:17 PM
Not really.

One of his HR pitches was to a career minor leaguer on a hanging breaking ball that would've been a home run in any stadium. You can't say much about that HR other than "Don't ever, under any circumstances, make a pitch like that again." The other was a high fastball to a high fastball hitter, and I think you chalk that one up to "read the scouting reports better next time instead of sitting up thinking about not screwing up your first big league start."

It's hard to judge tendencies off one game, especially a first game where there is so much going on, mentally, in the back of someone's mind.

I agree completely. If they had hit his best stuff and not mistakes, I would be more concerned.

Rojo
06-07-2009, 04:40 PM
My concern was that he's a nibbler who gets AAA hitters to chase. But he was around the plate and didn't get mashed despite not having his curve working until the fourth inning.

Of course, two homers and three doubles are a concern. I'm certain he'll give up his share of homers, like Browning did. But he can still be effective.

It helps that we some OF defense.

RedsManRick
06-07-2009, 04:53 PM
He really didn't pitch himself into jams. The first inning two men got on base, one of which was Theriot getting beaned on a ball that was over the plate but high. Hard to fault Maloney on that one. The second inning jam happens happens only because Hairston makes an error.

He allowed 7 baserunners in 6+ innings - that's exactly what he needs to do to succeed. 4 K vs 1 BB is getting the job done. He's going to give up some HRs and to survive that he needs to keep the bases relatively empty. He did that last night.

I agree, on balance he was very solid last night. My point is that we shouldn't make it a positive that a guy can pitch out of jams that he pitched in to -- bloops or not. Like batting average, it's just not something to get worked up about because the skills that matter show up elsewhere. Good pitchers generally, those who allow fewer baserunners, will do best at getting out of jams. Let's hope he maintains that superb WHIP.

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2009, 08:04 PM
I agree, on balance he was very solid last night. My point is that we shouldn't make it a positive that a guy can pitch out of jams that he pitched in to -- bloops or not. Like batting average, it's just not something to get worked up about because the skills that matter show up elsewhere. Good pitchers generally, those who allow fewer baserunners, will do best at getting out of jams. Let's hope he maintains that superb WHIP.

A first start (or, for that matter, a first couple of starts) for a young player are always "Show me" starts in my book. Show me signs that whatever you were doing in the minors is good enough to work at the big league level. Show me that you've got more going on than the typical "Better than a AAA player, worse than a major leaguer" type arm.

I don't expect Matt Maloney to throw 6+ IP of 2 ER baseball every night. It's simply unrealistic to expect a rookie to perform that way. What I do want to see are signs that we can expect good things in the future at the major league level from him. The kind of signs that make me feel comfortable making deals this year to free a spot for him in the future, or give other teams good feelings about making him the centerpiece of a deal that brings back talent in a more needed area.

Anything above that, from a rookie pitcher, is frosting and a cherry on top.

jojo
06-07-2009, 08:59 PM
MM has pitched almost 600 innings in the minors (including 3 stints in AAA) and another 150 inning in college. The realistic expectation for a 25 year old like that is that he can ride the Louisville shuttle to and fro while throwing strikes and burning innings on the occasions he's called north.

If the guy didn't have "poise" one should worry that even back end was too optimistic.

It's not unlike Livingston. The reasonable expectation is that he can throw strikes and give the defense something to do.

lollipopcurve
06-07-2009, 09:08 PM
It's not unlike Livingston. The reasonable expectation is that he can throw strikes and give the defense something to do.

K:BB is much better for Maloney. The comparison to Livingston is squarely on the pessimistic side.

jojo
06-07-2009, 09:15 PM
K:BB is much better for Maloney. The comparison to Livingston is squarely on the pessimistic side.

I think you missed the point of my post.

But talking about ceilings, for what it's worth, Sickels is probably the biggest supporter of Maloney and he basically only dares to suggest that Maloney might become a #4 rather than declaring he thinks it's likely.

BTW, last night really didn't provide anything that we didn't already know or shouldve expected (i.e nobody's opinion should've been dramatically changed). Just remember, after two starts from Thompson there were some declaring the "the trade" a complete slam dunk win.

OnBaseMachine
06-12-2009, 09:53 PM
Another nice start tonight by Matt Maloney. His final line should be this:

6 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 BB, 5 K

But instead, it's 5.2 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 5 K

In the 6th inning, Maloney picked off Teahen for the third out...however, Ramon Hernandez made a horrible throw. Instead of the third out, the runner was safe and the next batter homered. Not Maloney's fault. He pitched another good game, unfortunately, his offense and defense let him down. Again.

I'd like to see Matt get a few more starts. I've been impressed with his first two starts.

VR
06-12-2009, 09:59 PM
He has looked good OBM. It will be interesting to see how he pitches once a scouting report gets developed.

Kc61
06-12-2009, 10:03 PM
Key to Maloney is avoiding the long ball. He has good control and nice stuff, and is poised out there, but his mistakes tend to wind up in the bleachers.

Guy, though, is definitely a major league pitcher and it would make no sense to send him back to AAA. Either start him, relieve him, or trade him.

OnBaseMachine
06-12-2009, 10:07 PM
Key to Maloney is avoiding the long ball. He has good control and nice stuff, and is poised out there, but his mistakes tend to wind up in the bleachers.

Guy, though, is definitely a major league pitcher and it would make no sense to send him back to AAA. Either start him, relieve him, or trade him.

I agree. He's going to give up plenty of homers. The key is to limit them to solo homers.

It's a shame Hernandez botched that play and cost Maloney two runs. He pitched better than his final line indicates.

Falls City Beer
06-12-2009, 10:07 PM
Guy, though, is definitely a major league pitcher and it would make no sense to send him back to AAA. Either start him, relieve him, or trade him.

I don't think there's any way to tell at all at this point.

Kc61
06-12-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't think there's any way to tell at all at this point.

You're correct, of course. But I think Maloney has shown that he is entitled to a full shot at the majors, more than just a few outings. He may never be a star, but his command, poise, and reasonable stuff seem good enough.

Of course, if the team doesn't score any runs, all these pitchers - particularly the ones with less experience - may suffer. It's hard to pitch effectively game after game without run support.

RedlegJake
06-13-2009, 08:55 AM
I don't think there's any way to tell at all at this point.

I disagree with that. I think you can tell. The stuff is a bit better than I thought, his poise is off the charts, he has command. Last night against the Royals he again pitched extremely well. He hung a curveball for his biggest mistake of the night and paid for it. Of course, he should have been out the inning already so again the defense clobbers a young pitcher. This WAS a game where one can definitely say that had Joey been in there instead of an inexperienced Hernandez at first that play probably gets made correctly. Then we're looking at an exceptional starting performance from Maloney.

The point is, the WAY he pitches tells you more than his stuff ever could. This kid does belong. There will be bumps on the way but he is a pitcher - and those who believe in the art of pitching as opposed to just using stuff to blow guys away know what I mean. It's great if you find a Cueto or Volquez who can dominate while learning but it's also fun to watch a guy with a great changeup and average fastball and curves work his repertoire like a chess master out there. Maloney spent a long time learning his craft because he needed to - the powerballers can come on earlier and thrive but guys like Maloney, imo, are best served by a longer journey up and the ones who'll be successful learn something every time they go out there because they have to.

If only we could screw Matt Maloney's head onto Homer Bailey's shoulders.