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fearofpopvol1
06-10-2009, 11:46 PM
Honestly...what was Dusty thinking?? I don't care if Cordero wanted to go back in...this was the wrong move.

Any sensible manager or person would recognize that. He doesn't learn his lesson.

membengal
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
This really sucks. Something awful.

What is Dusty's damage when it comes to handling staffs around rain delays and extra innning games?

This is beyond me. Absolutely beyond me.

Kc61
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
I've never seen this in many years of watching baseball. Just a ridiculous decision.

VR
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
You can't find one other manager that would try to bring a pitcher in after this kind of delay especially with a closer who is used to a routine. Tie game.

He's got to get Cordero to the All-Star game. Don't you understand?

dsmith421
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
Dusty probably just wanted to get Coco a save. Because a stupid, pointless, made-up stat is more important than a pitcher's health or actually winning a game.

WVRedsFan
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
Just unbelievable. Codero doesn't have it, Dusty beats his thighs and we go extras--maybe. We may lose. No offense.

oneupper
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
End it here. Lets go home.

toledodan
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
Tie game.

Absolutely one of the stupidest managerial moves I've ever seen in my life.

you know dusty has to take care of the vets!

VR
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
Great game BTW Harang. Just kidding on getting you the W.

Blitz Dorsey
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
What a joke. Cordero messed the whole thing up with the first batter of the inning when he tried to get cute with Dukes instead of throwing strikes. Walking the leadoff batter will kill you every time in those situations.

membengal
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
You can't find one other manager that would try to bring a pitcher in after this kind of delay especially with a closer who is used to a routine. Tie game.

This is indefensible.

There is no way to defend this move. It is beyond belief.

KoryMac5
06-10-2009, 11:48 PM
First blown save since July of last season.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:48 PM
Guzman strikes out looking. 2 outs.

oneupper
06-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Guzman ks. Johnson up.

redsfaninbsg
06-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Why do you let him pitch to Johnson?

toledodan
06-10-2009, 11:49 PM
This is indefensible.

There is no way to defend this move. It is beyond belief.

trust me when i say there will be people on here that will defend it. the reds have done well despite of dusty.

Playadlc
06-10-2009, 11:49 PM
What is the freakin' point of having DRay warming up if you aren't going to bring him in here?!?!

VR
06-10-2009, 11:49 PM
In true Reds form....Cordero will now blow 4 consecutive saves before 2 stints on the DL.

dsmith421
06-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Why do you let him pitch to Johnson?

Because Dusty had two bottles of wine during the rain delay and has no earthly idea what is going on right now?

Blitz Dorsey
06-10-2009, 11:50 PM
We're going extra innings once again this year.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Johnson flies out to center. We may be here all night.

Playadlc
06-10-2009, 11:50 PM
That almost went over Taveras' head. That would have been fitting.

BCubb2003
06-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Free baseball!

toledodan
06-10-2009, 11:51 PM
In true Reds form....Cordero will now blow 4 consecutive saves before 2 stints on the DL.



the sad thing is your prob. right. i bet harang is none to happy with his manager right now.

KoryMac5
06-10-2009, 11:52 PM
I smell rain delay, game gets tied, goes 17 innings, and ends at 6 am tomorrow. :)

Way to jinx it for us :thumbup:

membengal
06-10-2009, 11:53 PM
trust me when i say there will be people on here that will defend it. the reds have done well despite of dusty.

Look, I think the concept of "Dusty bashing" is overblown. I think he has by and large handled the young starters well.

But he has a weird blind spot for counting stats that is absolutely insane. There is no reason, none, none, for running Cordero back out there after a two hour rain delay. You warm up Weathers, or Masset, or Fisher, fresh, and let them finish it. You preserve your $11 million dollar arm in the macro sense.

In the micro sense, warming back up after two hours of cool down is just not a good idea if you want an effective pitcher.

This was really profoundly stupid.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:53 PM
MacDougal is in to pitch.

oneupper
06-10-2009, 11:53 PM
Nats are 0-7 in Extras. Reds 2-4.

CTA513
06-10-2009, 11:53 PM
Nationals bullpen isn't that good so they should have a chance.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:53 PM
Gonzalez grounds out to 2nd.

Playadlc
06-10-2009, 11:54 PM
AGon is really tearing it up at the plate this year.

TeamBoone
06-10-2009, 11:54 PM
The worst part is that Harang can not win... and he pitched so well.

Tony Cloninger
06-10-2009, 11:54 PM
No way i defend this move.....and no i do not believe the reds win in spite of Dusty....give me a break with that stuff.

The things this team has gone through and they are winning is not in spite of him.

Tonight.....yes....it would be.....and he better have a better reason than "Cordero is my closer...he told me he was fine."

membengal
06-10-2009, 11:54 PM
On top of all that, we get the fresh hell of watching this team try and find a way to score a run in extra innings.

WVRedsFan
06-10-2009, 11:55 PM
Let's see. alex Gonzalez can't hit, can't run, and his fielding is less than gold glove status. Anyone care to pontificate on what the Reds saw in him? Warm body?

dsmith421
06-10-2009, 11:55 PM
Note to Dusty: Just go ahead and put Lincoln in for the tenth so everyone can go to bed. Then resign.

Homer Bailey
06-10-2009, 11:55 PM
Reds offense isn't that good so the Nats should have a chance.

Fixed.

fearofpopvol1
06-10-2009, 11:55 PM
Look, I think the concept of "Dusty bashing" is overblown. I think he has by and large handled the young starters well.

But he has a weird blind spot for counting stats that is absolutely insane. There is no reason, none, none, for running Cordero back out there after a two hour rain delay. You warm up Weathers, or Masset, or Fisher, fresh, and let them finish it. You preserve your $11 million dollar arm in the macro sense.

In the micro sense, warming back up after two hours of cool down is just not a good idea if you want an effective pitcher.

This was really profoundly stupid.

I think this is dead on. He values counting stats and "individual stats" more than he does the team winning. And his actions have proven this over an extended period of time.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:56 PM
Hanigan singles off the glove of Johnson.

oneupper
06-10-2009, 11:57 PM
Dickerson hitting for Coco.

Reds Fanatic
06-10-2009, 11:58 PM
Dickerson strikes out looking.

oneupper
06-10-2009, 11:58 PM
C-Dick Ks

Playadlc
06-10-2009, 11:58 PM
Dickerson saw the same pitch 6 straight times.

KoryMac5
06-10-2009, 11:59 PM
Dickerson keeps the bat on his shoulder the entire AB

WVRedsFan
06-10-2009, 11:59 PM
Sometimes Dickerson is jjust clueless at the plate. One reason why at his age he's just now in the majors.

I don't think I can take this...

membengal
06-11-2009, 12:00 AM
Baker should apologize to the team and the fanbase for this.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:01 AM
Sometimes Dickerson is jjust clueless at the plate. One reason why at his age he's just now in the majors.

I don't think I can take this...

A little cranky are we, WV?

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:01 AM
Utterly pathetic at-bats from Dickerson and Hairston.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:01 AM
Hairston strikes out swinging. 2-2 mid 10th.

membengal
06-11-2009, 12:01 AM
JHJ overmatched, Ks.

2-2 middle of 10.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Judging Hairston's swing....he's come to believe he is now a home run hitter. He's turned into the April Phillips.

redsfaninbsg
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Baker should be fired for this and I'm dead serious. This is common sense, this is not bring in this guy or that guy, steal, hit and run, etc, this is common sense in terms of baseball and health.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
I think this is dead on. He values counting stats and "individual stats" more than he does the team winning. And his actions have proven this over an extended period of time.

Really? Please tell me when he did this, other than the Harang game a couple weeks ago.

Tonight wasn't about stats, it was Dusty's invariable practice of using his $12 million closer to finish games all the time.

It was a bad decision. Terrible, in my view. But how does anyone know that it was based on individual stats?

If you think Dusty is intentionally risking games in the ninth inning to enhance personal stats, I'd like to see the backup for that.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Baker should apologize to the team and the fanbase for this.

The same guy that denied Sammy Sosa was guilty of using corked bats right after it happened? Yeah, don't think that's going to happen.

oneupper
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Manny Acta hasn't double switched out Dunn. How about that?
Adam gets to play in extra innings.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Dear Nats,

Please just win this game now, instead of in the 18th inning.

Sincerely,

reds/flyers fan

alloverjr
06-11-2009, 12:03 AM
Baker should apologize to the team and the fanbase for this.

I think Walt should do the same for this offense. Even with Votto this team is just painful to watch try and hit a baseball. Bring in Lincoln.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:04 AM
The Reds have the worst 1-2 hitters in all of baseball.

Scrap Irony
06-11-2009, 12:04 AM
Normal game. Low post number. Dusty makes one poor move and five pages of how poor a manager he is magically appear with the F5 refresh button.

Joy.

I can't help but think that, if the internet was around during his time, Casey Stengel would have been fired five times before ever winning a pennant.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:05 AM
A little cranky are we, WV?
Where you been TB? Missed you.

Yeah, I'm tired of getting a couple of runs and expecting our pitching staff to allow 1 or 2. It's physically impossible. To put that much pressure on a staff is simply criminal.

Other than that, I'm good.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:05 AM
Zimmerman strikes out swinging.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:05 AM
They need to find a way to pull this out. Brewers/ Cubs lost....chance to get to 1.5 instead of tread water.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:06 AM
Really? Please tell me when he did this, other than the Harang game a couple weeks ago.

Tonight wasn't about stats, it was Dusty's invariable practice of using his $12 million closer to finish games all the time.

It was a bad decision. Terrible, in my view. But how does anyone know that it was based on individual stats?

If you think Dusty is intentionally risking games in the ninth inning to enhance personal stats, I'd like to see the backup for that.

It's not the 9th inning specifically. Honest question...have you been watching the games this season? Dusty has an obsession with his pitchers being eligible for the win or going 5-6 innings...even when the pitchers are sucking and it's a close game. Without doing the research, I can confidently tell you that Dusty is very relaxed in these situations. He waits way too long to get the pen warming and pushes the starters to go 5 or 6 innings nearly every outing regardless of pitch count or how poorly they're pitching. He is obsessed with trying to get individuals the win, even when it's at the detriment of the team.

membengal
06-11-2009, 12:06 AM
So I guess people are supposed to ignore this kind of move? Pretend it didn't happen?

Baker gets plenty of praise when he manages well, and catches plenty of criticism when he doesn't.

I fail to see the "Dusty is so persecuted angle", frankly, and think that kind of bleating is a bit tired.

Dusty massively screwed up in this one. Massively. It is is not surprising it is drawing massive discussion. Go figure. Sun rises in the east. Pope's Catholic. Run your $11 milllion dollar closer back into a game after a 2:10 rain delay and watch the game implode, and people will talk. What a shocker...

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:07 AM
This is going to be one of those games when Dunn gets 7 ABs and eventually hits a HR.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Dunn ground out to 2nd. Phillips bobbled it but recovers.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:08 AM
Ground out to Masset. Good inning by Masset. On to the 11th.

membengal
06-11-2009, 12:08 AM
Wow. Look at Masset mow them down.

If only he could have been ready when the game resumed...

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:08 AM
Fresh pitcher mows down heart of Nationals lineup. Shocking.

Homer Bailey
06-11-2009, 12:08 AM
4 hits against the Nationals! I honestly hope we lose. We more than deserve it.

oneupper
06-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Massett does well with the meat of the Nats. 1-2-3

Scrap Irony
06-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Ignore it? Nope, I don't expect that. Calls for resignation? That's what's ridiculous.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:11 AM
Masset throwing some nasty stuff there. This bullpen is going to be fun to watch develop.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:11 AM
Just to lighten the mood I give you Wily T this inning.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:11 AM
Where you been TB? Missed you.

Yeah, I'm tired of getting a couple of runs and expecting our pitching staff to allow 1 or 2. It's physically impossible. To put that much pressure on a staff is simply criminal.

Other than that, I'm good.

Well, I'm glad that everything other than Reds baseball is going well. With a bit of luck, hopefully they'll win this game.

I haven't been around much. Lots of crap stuff happening since February. On the downswing now I guess so you'll be hearing more from me.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:11 AM
Taveras flies out to left.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:12 AM
Wow. Look at Masset mow them down.

If only he could have been ready when the game resumed...

This is exactly what should've happened to begin with. I was expecting Masset to come in.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
I didn't realize Taveras getting thrown out by Nieves last night was Nieves' 3rd CS.....vs. 19 SB's.

Tony Cloninger
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
CD was too busy whining about the 3-2 call....to realize he needed to swing the bat.

It was a bad AB and he deserves to be called out for it.

I would rather see him than WT but he does himself no favors sometimes.

I agree with the assumption that Dusty wants these guys to get their stats....and that really blinds him to some obvious moves he needs to make.

We need to call on hal King or Andy Kosco here for a PH homer.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
Well, I'm glad that everything other than Reds baseball is going well. With a bit of luck, hopefully they'll win this game.

I haven't been around much. Lots of crap stuff happening since February. On the downswing now I guess so you'll be hearing more from me.

That's really good. We need you around here.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
Well, I'm glad that everything other than Reds baseball is going well. With a bit of luck, hopefully they'll win this game.

I haven't been around much. Lots of crap stuff happening since February. On the downswing now I guess so you'll be hearing more from me.


Good.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
It's not the 9th inning specifically. Honest question...have you been watching the games this season? Dusty has an obsession with his pitchers being eligible for the win or going 5-6 innings...even when the pitchers are sucking and it's a close game. Without doing the research, I can confidently tell you that Dusty is very relaxed in these situations. He waits way too long to get the pen warming and pushes the starters to go 5 or 6 innings nearly every outing regardless of pitch count or how poorly they're pitching. He is obsessed with trying to get individuals the win, even when it's at the detriment of the team.

I watch as many games as most loyal Reds fans. And I appreciate your admission that you haven't done the "research."

Dusty does like his starters to go five or six or more. He's explained this - he doesn't want to ruin his bullpen by switching relievers in and out of games starting in the middle innings.

You may recall previous Reds managers who heavily used relievers by pulling his starters out at the first sign of trouble. Perhaps you prefer that style. I believe that Dusty is right to manage this way. It's the best way for his relievers to remain effective.

But there is no evidence that Dusty is sticking with starting pitchers to get them wins, except for the very rare situation of a fifth inning rain delay with two men out. That one time.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:13 AM
Phillips just swung at a pitch in the dirt and fouled it off his man-area. That's pretty much a microcosm for the whole game.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:14 AM
Phillips sitting dead red here

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Phillips singles to right.

Tony Cloninger
06-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Soooo what are the announcers saying about all this? They must have something to say about this move or did they just glide over it?

VR
06-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Steal please.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:16 AM
BP has had some good Ab's lately seems to be going with the pitch more.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:16 AM
Time for a Nix dinger.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
From what I've seen of MacDougal the last couple of nights.....hard to believe the Sox just waived him last month.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Soooo what are the announcers saying about all this? They must have something to say about this move or did they just glide over it?

George has been typically sunny.

Welsh sounds pissed, has brought up the decision on a half-dozen occasions, but is too polite to bash Dusty. (I think the ex-stache may have been banking on a few post-game cold ones).

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
I'm having trouble accepting Dibble rooting against the Reds on the Nats telecast. Maybe he can be replaced with Charlton or Myers.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
This may never end. Nix K's.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Nix strikes out swinging.

alloverjr
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
I love this new agressive baseball the Reds feature this year. Phillips still on 1st.

Homer Bailey
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
5 hits now against the worst pitching team in the majors.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
I watch as many games as most loyal Reds fans. And I appreciate your admission that you haven't done the "research."

Dusty does like his starters to go five or six or more. He's explained this - he doesn't want to ruin his bullpen by switching relievers in and out of games starting in the middle innings.

You may recall previous Reds managers who heavily used relievers by pulling his starters out at the first sign of trouble. Perhaps you prefer that style. I believe that Dusty is right to manage this way. It's the best way for his relievers to remain effective.

But there is no evidence that Dusty is sticking with starting pitchers to get them wins, except for the very rare situation of a fifth inning rain delay with two men out. That one time.

Above anything else, I value winning and being smart about winning. If the starting pitcher stinks and you're still in the game, you yank him. If he starts showing signs of stinking up the joint, you yank him. Is that extra 1/3 or 2/3 of an inning worth risking the game over? Absolutely not, IMO. A reliever can pitch an extra 1/3 or 2/3 of an inning if it's best for the TEAM and gives the TEAM the best chance of winning. It's pretty simple. Lou Pinella and Joe Torre are guys that believe in this philosophy very much and I would say it's paid off quite well for them overall. It's pretty simple logic.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
MacDougal bringing straight gas here, good movement on his pitches too.

Bob Borkowski
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
Soooo what are the announcers saying about all this? They must have something to say about this move or did they just glide over it?

Marty couldn't believe his eyes. He figured that a fresh pitcher would have been brought in to finish the 9th. Brantley said he expected Cordero to want to finish the game and that he would get that chance from Dusty.

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:19 AM
From what I've seen of MacDougal the last couple of nights.....hard to believe the Sox just waived him last month.

Absolutely crazy movement on all his pitches. Needs to control the offspeed more, but his fastball moves about a foot of more. Crazy break.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:20 AM
5 hits now against the worst pitching team in the majors.

This MacDougal kid is pretty sick, though. Gotta tip your cap.

Homer Bailey
06-11-2009, 12:20 AM
From what I've seen of MacDougal the last couple of nights.....hard to believe the Sox just waived him last month.

But look who he is facing.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:20 AM
I love this new agressive baseball the Reds feature this year. Phillips still on 1st.

He has thrown out 13% of baserunners this year.....gotta be careful.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:21 AM
But look who he is facing.

Touche' :thumbup:

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:21 AM
This MacDougal kid is pretty sick, though. Gotta tip your cap.
MacDougal is 32 years old, and is awful.

Caveat Emperor
06-11-2009, 12:21 AM
It all goes back to my original question:

Why, short of a hurricane blowing over the field, do you bring the tarp out in the bottom of the 9th with a runner on?

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:22 AM
Hernandez grounds out. 2-2 mid 11th.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:22 AM
MacDougal is 32 years old, and is awful.

Are you watching this game? He's throwing 95+, throwing strikes and has great movement. Maybe he was awful for the White Sox...but his stuff is VERY good.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:22 AM
This could go 20 and the Reds wouldn't score. Most pathetic offense I've seen here in a long, long time.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:24 AM
This could go 20 and the Reds wouldn't score. Most pathetic offense I've seen here in a long, long time.

And in the thick of the pennant race. Pitching rocks.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:24 AM
Above anything else, I value winning and being smart about winning. If the starting pitcher stinks and you're still in the game, you yank him. If he starts showing signs of stinking up the joint, you yank him. Is that extra 1/3 or 2/3 of an inning worth risking the game over? Absolutely not, IMO. A reliever can pitch an extra 1/3 or 2/3 of an inning if it's best for the TEAM and gives the TEAM the best chance of winning. It's pretty simple. Lou Pinella and Joe Torre are guys that believe in this philosophy very much and I would say it's paid off quite well for them overall. It's pretty simple logic.



That may be a reasonable philosophy, but you just changed the subject on us. The earlier point was that Dusty is supposedly keeping starters in, regularly, to pad personal stats. There is no evidence of that.

And, by the way, a manager who wants to avoid burning out his bullpen is also acting for the benefit of his TEAM.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:25 AM
Are you watching this game? He's throwing 95+, throwing strikes and has great movement. Maybe he was awful for the White Sox...but his stuff is VERY good.
Yes, I'm watching the game.

He still sucks.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:26 AM
That may be a reasonable philosophy, but you just changed the subject on us. The earlier point was that Dusty is supposedly keeping starters in, regularly, to pad personal stats. There is no evidence of that.

The 2 are pretty closely related. If you're claiming he's not doing it to pad personal stats, where is your proof of that?

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:26 AM
And in the thick of the pennant race. Pitching rocks.

After 50-some games. There's no way they can stay in touch for 1-2 more months unless the offense improves, IMO.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:26 AM
Willingham grounds out to 3rd.

AtomicDumpling
06-11-2009, 12:26 AM
It all goes back to my original question:

Why, short of a hurricane blowing over the field, do you bring the tarp out in the bottom of the 9th with a runner on?

Lightning.

Homer Bailey
06-11-2009, 12:27 AM
After 50-some games. There's no way they can stay in touch for 1-2 more months unless the offense improves, IMO.

Exactly.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:27 AM
It all goes back to my original question:

Why, short of a hurricane blowing over the field, do you bring the tarp out in the bottom of the 9th with a runner on?

Because there was lightening.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:28 AM
Yes, I'm watching the game.

He still sucks.

Good analysis.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:28 AM
Massett dealing, has a lot of confidence in his breaking stuff.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:29 AM
My kingdom for some runs,

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Good analysis.
He can't throw strikes, and he doesn't know where the ball is going. You've seen him for an inning against an awful offense in a dead atmposphere in a dead game.

He sucks. Better?

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Belliard and Nieves strike out. On to the 12th.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Hi-ho, Hi-ho, into the 12th we go...:)

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Masset looks like he could very well be the closer of the future for this team.

Chip R
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
The game that would not end...end...end...end.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:31 AM
The 2 are pretty closely related. If your claiming he's not doing it to pad personal stats, where is your proof of that?

I'm not the one accusing Dusty of acting against the team's interests.

And my proof is the philosophy Dusty has publicly stated since he joined the team. That he doesn't believe starting pitchers, particularly veterans, should be babied. And he doesn't want a tired bullpen. He's said many times that he wants to get his relievers adequate rest.

And it has worked. The Reds relievers do not have high appearance totals. And their record is spectacular. And they don't usually get hurt.

Yes, tonight was a real bad move. But Dusty's use of pitching has been excellent since he took over the team.

I have some other problems with his style. He overuses double switches, for example. But I think many of the accusations against him are not well founded.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:31 AM
He can't throw strikes, and he doesn't know where the ball is going. You've seen him for an inning against an awful offense in a dead atmposphere in a dead game.

He sucks. Better?

I can't vouch for all of his appearances...but he's been throwing strikes, he's been throwing gas and he has very good movement on his pitches. His stuff is very good. Maybe his RESULTS have SUCKED, but his stuff does not suck.

Tony Cloninger
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
This is just like pitching to Alex Trevino....Nick Fiala....Kelly Paris....Duane Walker. So it is correct not to be that impressed with this pitcher. He might show good stuff...and maybe the light has gone on...but i doubt it shines brightly for too long once some real hitters show up.

Brantley comments are disturbing.....Cordero not the manager.....Dusty is.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
The game that would not end...end...end...end.

Seems like it's becoming the norm.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
I can't vouch for all of his appearances...but he's been throwing strikes, he's been throwing gas and he has very good movement on his pitches. His stuff is very good. Maybe his RESULTS have SUCKED, but his stuff does not suck.
Who cares about his stuff? He's 32 years old, and he can't throw strikes. He's never going to throw strikes, it's not going to happen. I don't care if he can throw 108 if he can't get people out.

He doesn't get people out anymore, he's a bad pitcher.

Scrap Irony
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
The offense is hurting certainly. But it's probably more because of injuries to two of the club's pre-season top three bats, in EdE and Votto. Name another offense that wouldn't struggle if it's #3 hitter and its leading returning power bat haven't played much in a month.

The fact that the team is still in the thick of things says a lot about this team.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:33 AM
After 50-some games. There's no way they can stay in touch for 1-2 more months unless the offense improves, IMO.

No way they can play 1-2 months without getting more offense than they have to this point. Getting Votto and EE back changes everything. Hopefully WT has woken up or found the pine very soon as well.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
We need to get Bruce around.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
That was a fantastic ab by Jay Bruce. Just great.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
Leadoff walk for Bruce.

redsfaninbsg
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
Bruce is coming out of his funk, he's not chasing breaking balls off of left handers like he has in the last couple weeks.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
The offense is hurting certainly. But it's probably more because of injuries to two of the club's pre-season top three bats, in EdE and Votto. Name another offense that wouldn't struggle if it's #3 hitter and its leading returning power bat haven't played much in a month.

The fact that the team is still in the thick of things says a lot about this team.

You're right. But it is painful to watch these days.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
That's what Bruce needs to do be patient with lefties, make them throw you strikes.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
Man, Alex gonzalez is sloooooow.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
Gonzalez bunts. An error on Villone and everyone is safe.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
Come on don't blow this.

Redmachine2003
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
The Reds are batting .230 over the last 31 days and are batting .178 over the last 8 days. Willy T is 0 for June and the Reds are batting under .200 for June. I think it is time for some to get fired. Brook Jacoby Maybe Hint hint. This teams has not hit under this guy and I don't see any real improvement on approaches at the plate.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
No way they can play 1-2 months without getting more offense than they have to this point. Getting Votto and EE back changes everything. Hopefully WT has woken up or found the pine very soon as well.

I think assuming Votto and Encarnacion are going to be back in the next 1-2 months is dangerous. It's unclear when Votto is going to be able to come back and Encarnacion apparently needs surgery.

There's a break for the Legs.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
I'm not the one accusing Dusty of acting against the team's interests.

And my proof is the philosophy Dusty has publicly stated since he joined the team. That he doesn't believe starting pitchers, particularly veterans, should be babied. And he doesn't want a tired bullpen. He's said many times that he wants to get his relievers adequate rest.

And it has worked. The Reds relievers do not have high appearance totals. And their record is spectacular. And they don't usually get hurt.

Yes, tonight was a real bad move. But Dusty's use of pitching has been excellent since he took over the team.

I have some other problems with his style. He overuses double switches, for example. But I think many of the accusations against him are not well founded.

I don't disagree with keeping starters in as long as possible, but if it's a close game, and the starter sucks...I put the potential win first. If that means a reliever comes in 1/3 of an inning earlier, whoopty do. That's not going to make or break anything.

Dusty is also known as a "player's manager." He does like to get his players their counting stats. He even said after he put Harang out during the Astros game, something along the lines of, "when you're that close, you gotta try to get your pitcher that win." He can claim whatever he wants in terms of philosophy...but the speculation is fair based on his (past) decision making.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:36 AM
Heads up baserunning by Bruce.

CTA513
06-11-2009, 12:36 AM
The Nationals are gift wrapping this game up for the Reds.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:36 AM
Wild pitch moves Bruce to 3rd as no one was on 3rd with Zimmerman charging looking for a bunt.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:36 AM
1st and 3rd with no one out. If I hadn't been at Sunday's game I'd feel confident.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:37 AM
The offense is hurting certainly. But it's probably more because of injuries to two of the club's pre-season top three bats, in EdE and Votto. Name another offense that wouldn't struggle if it's #3 hitter and its leading returning power bat haven't played much in a month.

The fact that the team is still in the thick of things says a lot about this team.
You speak truth, but how pitiful is it when two players can go down and the Reds don't score runs? If I remember correctly, this team wasn't scoring when they were in the lineup. The pressure on the pitching staff will break them. We need offense.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:37 AM
Jay Bruce, you are the man! That was a beautiful thing.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:37 AM
Heads up baserunning by Bruce.

Indeed. Very impressive inning so far by Jay.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:37 AM
Who cares about his stuff? He's 32 years old, and he can't throw strikes. He's never going to throw strikes, it's not going to happen. I don't care if he can throw 108 if he can't get people out.

He doesn't get people out anymore, he's a bad pitcher.

Repeated for clarity...


I can't vouch for all of his appearances...but he's been throwing strikes, he's been throwing gas and he has very good movement on his pitches. His stuff is very good. Maybe his RESULTS have SUCKED, but his stuff does not suck.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:37 AM
The Nationals are gift wrapping this game up for the Reds.

There is always time for us to re-gift it right back.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Repeated for clarity...
And again, you are basing your opinon of him off of one game.

He's bad.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Wow that was almost very very bad

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Masset looks like he could very well be the closer of the future for this team.

He has started in the past...anyone for that?

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Time for Hanigan to come through in a pressure situation

Scrap Irony
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
how pitiful is it when two players can go down and the Reds don't score runs?

You're forgetting (or purposefully being obtuse) EdE has been hurt all year and Votto was among the best hitters in the NL while healthy. And no offense would be good without two of its best bats.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
Just pathetic.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
Just kill me.

redsfaninbsg
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
You have got to be kidding me.

CTA513
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
:ughmamoru

Chip R
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
You know, I think they might as well call it a tie. Everybody needs to be up the next day and the Nats would avoid another loss. Plus the 10 or so fans that are there wouldn't have to watch the Reds' putrid offense.

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:40 AM
Just amazing.

I take it you are referring to GG's smooth play by play of that trainwreck.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
This team is pathetic as was that sequence right there by Gonzo.

Hopefully Gomes can save the day.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Absolutely pitiful. A DP. As the runner gets caught in a rundown and Bruce never moves off 3rd.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
The Reds are batting .230 over the last 31 days and are batting .178 over the last 8 days. Willy T is 0 for June and the Reds are batting under .200 for June. I think it is time for some to get fired. Brook Jacoby Maybe Hint hint. This teams has not hit under this guy and I don't see any real improvement on approaches at the plate.

I wouldn't fire anyone.. Look hwo they have to work with. When a team values Jerry Hairston Jr so much that he's the No. 1 priority over the winter, you have problems. When a team obtains a center fielder who can't hit, well you get my drift.

And as I say this, what in the name of whatever was going on in that rundown? What was Bruce thinking? Better yet, what was the third base coach thinking? Good God, this team is simply offensively horrible.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
And GOMES saves the day!

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
:beerme::beerme::beerme:

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Thank you johnny gomes.

Lead.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Gomes doubles in a run. 3-2 Reds.

redsfaninbsg
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
The Reds Scored in extra innings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Gomes comes through. Thank the Good Lord.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Bearded Reds fan doing celebratory dance is my new favorite guy.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
:thisyear:

It's not 2002-2008 anymore

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Off a righty! Gomes says let me start!

Guess what? A good LF saves that inning

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Finally somebody wants to win this game.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
And Hairston! Nice work! 2 run lead is a good thing.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Alright another one.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Hairston singles to left. 4-2 Reds! Hairston is thrown out at 2nd.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Absolutely pitiful. A DP. As the runner gets caught in a rundown and Bruce never moves off 3rd.

Don't you think the third base coach had something to do with that?

CTA513
06-11-2009, 12:42 AM
lol the Nationals pull off a huge double play and then fall apart and give up 2 runs with 2 outs.

4-2 Reds

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:43 AM
Bearded Reds fan doing celebratory dance is my new favorite guy.

He just made my night all the better!

Caveat Emperor
06-11-2009, 12:43 AM
Reds Baseball -- Catch the Excitement™.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:43 AM
Bearded Reds fan doing celebratory dance is my new favorite guy.

New favorite leprechaun perhaps. I think he was stading at the end of a rainbow.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:43 AM
Off a righty! Gomes says let me start!

Guess what? A good LF saves that inning

Was that a shot at Dunn don't let Fay here you say that. :eek:

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:43 AM
2 runs and 3 outs are all that separate the Reds from being 1.5 games back. Finish em' off...too much to ask?

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:44 AM
Pinch hitter, Guzman and Johnson due up.

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:44 AM
Don't you think the third base coach had something to do with that?

Why would you send him? Thats an easy play from second base. This ain't high school ball where you intentionally get caught in a rundown so the guy can score from third.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:44 AM
You wanted more excitement here comes Weathers.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
Does anyone doubt that Dunn comes up this inning?:)

Caveat Emperor
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
Ahhh -- everything old is new again.

David Weathers, pitching for the save. Get ya' popcorn ready, kids.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
Make it a clear night, stormy.

Chip R
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
lol the Nationals pull off a huge double play and then fall apart and give up 2 runs with 2 outs.

4-2 Reds


Oh, those crazy Nats. I wonder which team is worse; the 62 Mets or the 09 Nats?

Scrap Irony
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
My call-- Dunn wins it with a walk-off.

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
I didn't read the beginning of this thread, but why is Kearns not starting? Is Dukes the full time starter now?

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
Sit down, ears.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
Why would you send him? Thats an easy play from second base. This ain't high school ball where you intentionally get caught in a rundown so the guy can score from third.

Yep....Bruce couldn't have won for losing there.

Kearns = shell

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
Kearns strikes out.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
Why would you send him? Thats an easy play from second base. This ain't high school ball where you intentionally get caught in a rundown so the guy can score from third.

I'm not saying you should. Some were complaining that he didn't go... I was just pointing out that the 3rd base coach may have made the decision, not Bruce.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
Weathers knows how to paint that outside corner

CTA513
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
I can't believe Kearns is still in the major leagues.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:47 AM
I didn't read the beginning of this thread, but why is Kearns not starting? Is Dukes the full time starter now?

He's OPSing under .500 over his last 100 ab's. He's made the decision very, very easy for Acta.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:47 AM
These extra inning games are absolutely driving me crazy.

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
Without getting in to the nitty-gritty of the actual debate on these guys...

To the causal Reds fan Kearns and Dunn have done nothing this series to make them be missed. Of course the casual Reds fan is asleep right now.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
Yep....Bruce couldn't have won for losing there.

Kearns = shell

Kearns has absolutely no confidence at the plate he looks so defeated up there.

Caveat Emperor
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
I'm listening on the radio -- did Kearns do the "Lift the arms up to show the ump how close I came to getting hit as I get rung up on an inside-corner fastball" move on his strikeout?

I don't miss seeing that 2 times per night.

11larkin11
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
I'm not saying you should. Some were complaining that he didn't go... I was just pointing out that the 3rd base coach may have made the decision, not Bruce.

Ah. Gotcha. I meant to quote the quote you quoted (lots of quotes), but i accidentally got yours haha

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
One more.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
Guzman grounds out to 1st. 2 outs.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:49 AM
Ramon has little range at 1st. But he has made some absolute money plays at 1st this year. That was very tricky over there.

Redmachine2003
06-11-2009, 12:49 AM
Boy to think everyone including myself thought Dunn and Kearns were going to save the Reds for years to come and look at how much we know. It worries me a little because Bruce is starting remind me alot of ears himself. Hot start to is career and big struggles after words. Hopefully Bruce can get on track.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:50 AM
This is not good.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:50 AM
Weathers falls behind Johnson 3-0 with Zimm and Dunn up next.

Now strike one.
Now strike two call.
Cmon Stormy.

Ball four way outside. Fasten those seat belts. Again.

CTA513
06-11-2009, 12:50 AM
2 out walk to Johnson

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:50 AM
Johnson walks.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:50 AM
This is not an ideal situation to be in for Stormy.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:51 AM
Am I stupid to ask this question? Why does Codero seem to have so much trouble throwing strikes in a game. Is he throwing balls on purpose hoping to get hitters to fish? I mean, he just mystifies me.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:51 AM
They were talking about Austin last night. Apparently he got plunked on the had early in the season and still has a huge bump on top that hasn't gone away.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:51 AM
For the love of god don't let this get to 44.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
phew! Reds WIN!

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
Am I stupid to ask this question? Why does Codero seem to have so much trouble throwing strikes in a game. Is he throwing balls on purpose hoping to get hitters to fish? I mean, he just mystifies me.

He drives me nuts! I'm so tired of hearing people, including all announcers, saying he's lights out.

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
Whew.

1.5 out

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
Reds win. We drink your milkshake.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
David Weathers has sack.

Reds Fanatic
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
Zimmerman flies out to center. Its finally over. Reds win 4-2. :beerme:

reds44
06-11-2009, 12:52 AM
He drives me nuts! I'm so tired of hearing people, including all announcers, saying he's lights out.
He hadn't blow a save since last july.

He's been lights out.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Hey, before you guys all leave... anyone heard anything about Aaron Boone and how his recovery is going?

WVRedsFan
06-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Reds win. 1.5 out. Just more amazing than amazing.

Kc61
06-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Weathers is a tough hombre. Still.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Weathers continues to get the job done this season.

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2009, 12:54 AM
He drives me nuts! I'm so tired of hearing people, including all announcers, saying he's lights out.

He has been lights out.

When you're warmed up and you pitch and then take a break for 2 hours, your stuff is going to be flat. This was Dusty's fault.

He has not allowed very many baserunners this year or runs at all. He has been lights out.

kaldaniels
06-11-2009, 12:54 AM
He hadn't blow a save since last july.

He's been lights out.

Agreed. Dusty made the error tonight allowing him to come back out. He's been shaky in non-save situations...but overall he has been great.

Tony Cloninger
06-11-2009, 12:54 AM
He is not dominant.....borderline scary sometimes....but better this season.


Bruce has not even produced near what AK did his first season or two...yet.

Caveat Emperor
06-11-2009, 12:55 AM
Weathers continues to get the job done this season.

Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated.

VR
06-11-2009, 12:55 AM
Not sure how the Reds didn't lose in the bottom of the 9th.
Not sure how the Reds scored after that DP in the 12th.

Hats off to the Reds....special tip o' the cap to Masset, Gomes, and Weathers. Oh, and that little leprechaun dude. :thumbup:

Homer Bailey
06-11-2009, 12:56 AM
A game that wouldn't have been won without Gomes on the roster. Yet we had Darnell on the roster for 40 games. Just think, if he's not on this team, are we maybe in first right now?

VR
06-11-2009, 12:57 AM
Hey, before you guys all leave... anyone heard anything about Aaron Boone and how his recovery is going?

I have not TB....will keep my ears perked and let you know if I come across anything. Good to see you back in the game threads.

TeamBoone
06-11-2009, 01:00 AM
I have not TB....will keep my ears perked and let you know if I come across anything. Good to see you back in the game threads.

Thx, VR (and WVRedsFan too). It's good to be back.

KoryMac5
06-11-2009, 01:01 AM
A game that wouldn't have been won without Gomes on the roster. Yet we had Darnell on the roster for 40 games. Just think, if he's not on this team, are we maybe in first right now?

McDonald gets a ton of grief on here and most of it deserved, but I'm sorry I can't blame him for the Reds not being in first right now. Votto being out, EE being out, Willy T just being, all of those have had more of an effect on this team than a part time AAAA player.

OUReds
06-11-2009, 01:18 AM
.....and he better have a better reason than "Cordero is my closer...he told me he was fine."

Pretty much Dusty's exact quote on the post game show by the way....

He compared it to having your closer pitch both ends of a double header.

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 01:45 AM
He compared it to having your closer pitch both ends of a double header.

Which, to be fair, isn't a bad point. I wonder how often that happens, though.

redsmetz
06-11-2009, 06:06 AM
Normal game. Low post number. Dusty makes one poor move and five pages of how poor a manager he is magically appear with the F5 refresh button.

Joy.

I can't help but think that, if the internet was around during his time, Casey Stengel would have been fired five times before ever winning a pennant.

:clap: I can't tell you how many times I've thought this.

Sure it was a mistake to send Cordero out to finish this game. I wouldn't say it's always the wrong decision, but last night it clear was. It happens and fortunately we won. But it's unbelievable that someone actually said Baker should be fired for this. Oh for heaven's sake, as my mom would say. That's way too dramatic.

RZ ought to set up a little delay before entering game threads, "OK, now take a deep breath; exhale. Take a deep breath, exhale... and then go to the threads. :)

HokieRed
06-11-2009, 07:19 AM
A game that wouldn't have been won without Gomes on the roster. Yet we had Darnell on the roster for 40 games. Just think, if he's not on this team, are we maybe in first right now?

Just think, would Jonny Gomes have been productive at all without all those steady regular ABs he got at Louisville?

dsmith421
06-11-2009, 08:13 AM
But it's unbelievable that someone actually said Baker should be fired for this. Oh for heaven's sake, as my mom would say. That's way too dramatic.

Oh my God, someone watching a baseball game became excited! Thank God the self-appointed Voice of Reason and Moderation is here to scold them.

PuffyPig
06-11-2009, 09:06 AM
The real culpret in the almost botched last inning had to be Bruce.

With runners on first and third and zero outs, he can't stand there like a statute on a ground ball to second baseman and let them turn the DP without him scoring.

He could have immediately run for home, worse case for us is first and second, one out. He could have simply faked going home and likley froze Belliard, where any split second hesitation would have likely cost him the chance for the DP. He could have simply gotten himself in a rundown and ensured their would not be two out.

Even when Gonzo was in the run down, Bruce never moved. He could have least faked going home, to give the players in the run down something to think about.

But standing there ensured the easy DP, something you seldom see.

traderumor
06-11-2009, 09:27 AM
The real culpret in the almost botched last inning had to be Bruce.

With runners on first and third and zero outs, he can't stand there like a statute on a ground ball to second baseman and let them turn the DP without him scoring.

He could have immediately run for home, worse case for us is first and second, one out. He could have simply faked going home and likley froze Belliard, where any split second hesitation would have likely cost him the chance for the DP. He could have simply gotten himself in a rundown and ensured their would not be two out.

Even when Gonzo was in the run down, Bruce never moved. He could have least faked going home, to give the players in the run down something to think about.

But standing there ensured the easy DP, something you seldom see.
I think since you seldom see such a play, that a baserunner being frozen might not seem like such a far fetched idea.

cumberlandreds
06-11-2009, 09:29 AM
Never heard of him, I don't think. He's good.

I wonder what happened to the poor Montreal announcers then. I suspect cabaret.

Slowes is OK. He just tries to be too cute with his talk sometimes and get annoying. When I first moved to the DC area 19 years ago he was the Bullets PBP guy before he moved on to Tampa.