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View Full Version : The Reds offense or lack of offense should I say!



fewfirstchoice
06-12-2009, 09:01 PM
This Reds team has done a great job at staying in contention with no offense. I hope Bob and Walt looks at what this team has done and decides to get them a couple of bats to add to the offense. I believe that is all this team needs to make the playoffs. If the Reds can stay 1 1/2 out with this offense just think what they could do when Votto comes back then if they add say DeRosa and Dye. This team would be the best in the NL and maybe baseball. Look at the lineup.
c- Hernandez
1B- Votto
2B- Phillips
3B- DeRosa
SS- Gonzo or Hairston Jr.
LF- Dye
CF- Taveraz or dickerson but we all know the great manager that Dusty is will play Taveras
RF- Bruce
Thats not a bad lineup. But in order to make the playoffs the Reds need a offense this team now just doesnt have one right now.

George Foster
06-12-2009, 11:46 PM
I think it is a stretch to assume that Votto will get back and stay back. The guy has "problems" His absence from this team is hurting the offense.

The management is not doing anything to correct the offensive problem. The pitching staff will start to "press" knowing they will have to almost pitch a shut-out in order to have a chance to win, and they will begin to pitch worse. It will be a downward tailspin.

travisgrimes
06-13-2009, 12:13 AM
i dont think we have the money to buy or the total package to compete this season so i hope we will see these trades:

Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Philadelphia Phillies for LF Michael Taylor and RHP Carlos Carrasco

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Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo and SS Alex Gonzalez to the New York Mets for RHP Jenrry Mejia, SS Ruben Tejada, and a PTBNL (we pick up half of a-gon's contract)

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Reds trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion (if healthy and produces when he returns) to the San Francisco Giants for SS Ehire Adrianza and LHP Scott Barnes

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Why these trades work?
Aaron Harang trade works because it's well know that the Phillies need a starting pitcher and like Harang. It also gives us a legit power hitting young LF, plus a power arm in the starting rotation.

The Mets also need a starting pitcher but also need a fill in veteran shortstop until Reyes is able to come back. In return we get an up and coming very young SS who can field and hit really well plus a 20 year old starting pitcher who is already in AA.

Edwin Encarnacion has worn out his welcome here and we ALL know the Giants are in love with this guy plus they need another bat in their lineup. In return we get another young true shortstop and lefty starter who has a nasty changeup.

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IF we make those trades not only would it be smart economically but also for future trades. If we are able to get some at least mid-level prospects for Harang, EE, Arroyo: it will allow us in the future to be able to pull off big deals easily without selling all our solid minor league players. Also allows Yonder Alonso to take his time developing as a future everyday player or a key piece of trade bait.

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2010 Lineup:
1. CF Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson (let them duke it out in ST)
2. SS Ruben Tejada (he is ready now as long as he does well in ST and the rest of 2009)
3. 1B Joey Votto
4. 2B Brandon Phillips
5. RF Jay Bruce
6. LF Michael Taylor
7. 3B Juan Francisco
8. C Ramon Hernandez
9. P

Starting Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Matt Maloney
5. Carlos Carrasco/Micah Owings/Scott Barnes/Zach Stewart/Travis Wood (once again let them duke it out the rest of 2009 and ST)

Roush's socks
06-13-2009, 12:50 AM
If Votto comes back, and Nix and Gomes continue to hit as platoon players, the Reds only need one more bat to be at least average offensively. I think Hairston will eventually get hot again. If Taveras stay below .240 and Dickerson shows he can hit, maybe Dusty will let CD paly more. As bad as the Reds offense looks, they are about in the middle of the NL in runs scored and HR's. But when you factor in that GABP is a hitter's park, and Votto is out now, it looks a lot worse.

I think trading Arroyo would be the move if anyone wanted him. Is there a reason he would appeal to certain teams?

Fon Duc Tow
06-13-2009, 12:51 AM
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FlyerFanatic
06-13-2009, 12:56 AM
if votto comes back, i wouldnt expect him to just up and start from where he left off. same with EE, EE wasnt really hitting before he went out was he?

BluegrassRedleg
06-13-2009, 01:04 AM
The sad part about this is that this division is there to be had this year. The Reds have given us all reason to be hopeful, and I'm really glad they seem to be heading in the right direction as an organization, but along the way they have also squandered about 6-8 games they flat-out should have won so far if they just had decent (not even great) offensive production.

I'm really worried that the FO is sitting back and using the fact that they're only a couple of games out of first as reason not to make a move. They need to be pro-active.

corwinator3407
06-13-2009, 01:23 AM
10 total runs in four games. They could easily be 4-0 right now on this road trip, especially if Votto was playing. If they can muster out the next one or two and get him back, I can see them being in first (maybe second) in the division going into the ASG.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-13-2009, 01:43 AM
We suck ridiculously bad right now. I just would like to know if it was our side that vetoed the Dye deal before the year. If so, thats firing worthy stupidity.

will5979
06-13-2009, 07:59 AM
We suck ridiculously bad right now. I just would like to know if it was our side that vetoed the Dye deal before the year. If so, thats firing worthy stupidity.

Well, this team is unbearable to watch right now. Two weeks ago I was watching every game with passion. Now they are unbearable and pretty boring to watch (even when they win). My wife and I have to bring our daughter to a Dr. in Cincy on Tuesday night. We were planning to spend the night and go to the game. Now I feel like we will just go to the Dr., get a bite to eat, and come on home. Why should we waste our time and money on this crap?

What is really sad is that when the ptiching staff gives up anywhere from 2-4 per game it IS doing its job. Why isn't Dusty trying to light a fire under the offense's ass? Why is Jocketty sitting back and watching what could be a "decent" season go to waste by not making any moves? And for the love of God someone needs to smack some testosterone into Votto and get his butt back in the lineup.

Jerry Narron
06-13-2009, 08:34 AM
I hope Bob and Walt looks at what this team has done and decides to get them a couple of bats to add to the offense.

The problem I see are both Jocketty and Castellini being a little hesitant to make a trade to bring in a big bat and standing pat while the Reds slowly fade away. Hopefully they won't unload payroll if the Reds do fall out of it.

texasdave
06-13-2009, 09:48 AM
Here is one of the more improbable stats of all-time. Willy Taveras in his last 29 at-bats has an OPS of .000. That is not a typo. He has trudged up to the plate 29 consecutive times and has gotten neither a hit nor a walk nor even been hit by a pitch. That has to be close to a major league record. 29 times in a row someone has stood at the plate and not gotten on in any manner or form. When you consider how many bunt hits and infield hits Taveras gets that is almost impossible for me to believe that that could happen. Pretty sweet from your leadoff hitter. Which, naturally, is where Dusty likes to bat him.

JoeyGears76
06-13-2009, 09:55 AM
The sad part about this is that this division is there to be had this year. The Reds have given us all reason to be hopeful, and I'm really glad they seem to be heading in the right direction as an organization, but along the way they have also squandered about 6-8 games they flat-out should have won so far if they just had decent (not even great) offensive production.

I'm really worried that the FO is sitting back and using the fact that they're only a couple of games out of first as reason not to make a move. They need to be pro-active.

One thing I don't think a lot of people is considering is this... does this team have what it takes to go deep into the playoffs? If yes, then trading for a bat or two would make sense. If no, then why mortgage the future just to win the NL Central? I highly doubt if the wild-card winner will come out of the NL Central.

I say wait things out. See where we are mid-July and then decide whether or not to make a move. As you said above... the division is there to be had this year. If that's the case, the Reds should be able to stay in contention as they are right now.

JoeyGears76
06-13-2009, 09:59 AM
Here is one of the more improbable stats of all-time. Willy Taveras in his last 29 at-bats has an OPS of .000. That is not a typo. He has trudged up to the plate 29 consecutive times and has gotten neither a hit nor a walk nor even been hit by a pitch. That has to be close to a major league record. 29 times in a row someone has stood at the plate and not gotten on in any manner or form. When you consider how many bunt hits and infield hits Taveras gets that is almost impossible for me to believe that that could happen. Pretty sweet from your leadoff hitter. Which, naturally, is where Dusty likes to bat him.

Although I don't have the numbers to prove it, I highly doubt if that's even close to a major league record.

Numbers tend to trend back towards the middle, so we might as well ride out this cold streak and take advantage of the hot streak to come. Unless, of course, he's injured and we don't know about it.

JoeyGears76
06-13-2009, 10:03 AM
I think it is a stretch to assume that Votto will get back and stay back. The guy has "problems" His absence from this team is hurting the offense.


Unless you're a member of Votto's inner circle, you don't have any evidence to support this statement. He's eligible to come off the DL tomorrow. Why don't you save your judgment for his performance when he does return? :rolleyes:

GIDP
06-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Unless you're a member of Votto's inner circle, you don't have any evidence to support this statement. He's eligible to come off the DL tomorrow. Why don't you save your judgment for his performance when he does return? :rolleyes:

I think because hes on the DL with no time frame to return because of stress related issues its pretty easy to assume hes has "problems"

texasdave
06-13-2009, 10:45 AM
Although I don't have the numbers to prove it, I highly doubt if that's even close to a major league record.

Numbers tend to trend back towards the middle, so we might as well ride out this cold streak and take advantage of the hot streak to come. Unless, of course, he's injured and we don't know about it.

I should have been a tad more specific. I was only considering non-pitchers. I found an article that lists 46 consecutive at-bats without a hit by Bill Bergen way back in 1909. I have no way of knowing if he had any walks or hit by pitches during that stretch. So I am throwing that one out. In recent memory it lists Dan Howitt at 43 consecutive at-bats. However, he did have 3 walks during that time and his longest consecutive number of Plate Appearances without reaching was 25. I will stand by my assertion that 29 consecutive plate appearances by a non-pitcher is really close, if not the major league record unless you can come up with something that contradicts that.


I will start the bidding with Dann Howitt, who had a streak of 0-43 in 1992 with Oakland and Seattle. There are probably longer ones though, if I remember I will look into it more tomorrow... I can't find out how long Bill Bergen's longest hitless streak was (he played for the Reds and the Dodgers from 1901-11, baseballlibrary.com calls him "the worst hitter ever to play regularly in MLB") - he had a stretch from June 29th 1909 to July 17th 1909 without a hit, but I don't know how many at bats that included... probably more than 43 I would reckon...

edit - the wikipedia entry for Bill Bergen lists his hitless streak at 46 at bats, which it says is "the longest streak ever by a position player". If you want to include pitchers in this question, then the same entry also lists Bob Buhl as having a hitless streak of 88 at bats with the Braves/Cubs, including an 0-70 record in the entire 1962 season... I'm not sure if the other 18 were at the end of the 1961 season or the start of the 1963 season. Sure lucky for him he could pitch!

Here is another article that lists Bill Bergen as the record holder at 46 at-bats without a hit.


Who has the longest hitless streak in Major League Baseball?

On July 29, 1909 William Aloysius "Bill" Bergen stepped up to bat for the Brooklyn Dodgers and got a hit, his last before setting the record for the longest hitless streak for a position player ever.

Bill Bergen's next hit would not come until July 17, 1909, setting the streak at 46 at bats without a hit.

Just out of curiousity I looked up Bob Buhl. In 1962 he was 0 for 70. However he did walk 6 times and was hit-by-pitch once. His longest consecutive streak of Plate Appearances without getting on in any way is, as close as I can tell, 22.

JoeyGears76
06-13-2009, 10:48 AM
I think because hes on the DL with no time frame to return because of stress related issues its pretty easy to assume hes has "problems"

That's not the issue I have with the original statement.

The issue I have with the original statement is that you have no evidence to support the assumption that he won't get back in the lineup and stay in the lineup when he does return. From what I've heard, he's been taking batting practice and ground balls every day. Does that sound like the activity of someone who will be out of the lineup indefinitely?

Fon Duc Tow
06-13-2009, 11:27 AM
That's not the issue I have with the original statement.

The issue I have with the original statement is that you have no evidence to support the assumption that he won't get back in the lineup and stay in the lineup when he does return. From what I've heard, he's been taking batting practice and ground balls every day. Does that sound like the activity of someone who will be out of the lineup indefinitely?


I see a lot better than I hear.

bleedsred
06-13-2009, 12:52 PM
Even with Votto, this offense still is pathetic. A move or 2 must be made for this team to have a chance.

GIDP
06-13-2009, 12:55 PM
I think its funny that when the offense is having problems Dusty shifts it around to make it worse.

BluegrassRedleg
06-13-2009, 03:40 PM
One thing I don't think a lot of people is considering is this... does this team have what it takes to go deep into the playoffs? If yes, then trading for a bat or two would make sense. If no, then why mortgage the future just to win the NL Central? I highly doubt if the wild-card winner will come out of the NL Central.

I say wait things out. See where we are mid-July and then decide whether or not to make a move. As you said above... the division is there to be had this year. If that's the case, the Reds should be able to stay in contention as they are right now.

I believe they do. Once you get to the playoffs, it's about your top three pitchers. The Reds match up with anybody in that scenario IF they get Votto back and add another legit bat (or two).

GIDP
06-13-2009, 04:13 PM
The fact that last nights line up only saw 80 pitches probably means that its going to stay that way until they win a game just so Dusty can say "I told you it would work"

High Mileage
06-13-2009, 04:23 PM
Both teams have played 60 games...

Royals...
Runs: 242
Hits: 498
2Bs: 102
3Bs: 22
HRs: 53
TBs: 803
RBI: 230
AVG: .248
OBP: .315
SLG: .400
OPS: .715
SO: 404
BB: 178
AB/HR: 32.4
XBH: 177


Reds...
Runs: 257
Hits: 501
2Bs: 94
3Bs: 11
HRs: 62
TBs: 803
RBI: 246
AVG: .245
OBP: .320
SLG: .393
OPS: .713
SO: 403
BB: 211
AB/HR: 33.0
XBH: 167

George Foster
06-13-2009, 09:28 PM
That's not the issue I have with the original statement.

The issue I have with the original statement is that you have no evidence to support the assumption that he won't get back in the lineup and stay in the lineup when he does return. From what I've heard, he's been taking batting practice and ground balls every day. Does that sound like the activity of someone who will be out of the lineup indefinitely?

Ah......he's tried to come back several times and has not been able to overcome his "problems" for more than 3 innings or so. You have no evidence he will return and stay.

Ghosts of 1990
06-13-2009, 11:21 PM
Six hits tonight. This is embarrasing to watch and borderline not even fun anymore.

Jerry Narron
06-14-2009, 08:34 AM
I'm done with baseball if the Reds are out of it and Jocketty decides to unload payroll on July 31st.

will5979
06-14-2009, 09:35 AM
I'm done with baseball if the Reds are out of it and Jocketty decides to unload payroll on July 31st.

Agreed. If the Reds aren't in contention, the whole sport sucks in my opinion. I usally don't even turn on the playoffs. I occassionally watch the World Series.

jmac
06-14-2009, 10:08 AM
I believe they do. Once you get to the playoffs, it's about your top three pitchers. The Reds match up with anybody in that scenario IF they get Votto back and add another legit bat (or two).

I agree about the Reds matching up as far as top 3 pitchers. Well to a point though Harang worries me anymore.
Votto/ a big bat/ EE hitting like we think he could and CD in CF would certainly help.
Problem is....I dont really see WJ getting a Bat, Dusty benching Taveras, EE hasnt hit like that for awhile now, and Votto cant do it by himself.
So chances arent good.

texasdave
06-14-2009, 10:26 AM
The only team hitting worse than the Reds right now is my Fantasy Baseball team. :D

JoeyGears76
06-14-2009, 11:49 AM
I should have been a tad more specific. I was only considering non-pitchers. I found an article that lists 46 consecutive at-bats without a hit by Bill Bergen way back in 1909. I have no way of knowing if he had any walks or hit by pitches during that stretch. So I am throwing that one out. In recent memory it lists Dan Howitt at 43 consecutive at-bats. However, he did have 3 walks during that time and his longest consecutive number of Plate Appearances without reaching was 25. I will stand by my assertion that 29 consecutive plate appearances by a non-pitcher is really close, if not the major league record unless you can come up with something that contradicts that.



Here is another article that lists Bill Bergen as the record holder at 46 at-bats without a hit.



Just out of curiousity I looked up Bob Buhl. In 1962 he was 0 for 70. However he did walk 6 times and was hit-by-pitch once. His longest consecutive streak of Plate Appearances without getting on in any way is, as close as I can tell, 22.

Taveras has 2 sacrifices during his hitless streak, including one last night which moved a runner to 3rd with less than 2 outs. Who's to say he wouldn't have reached base either of those 2 times he was asked to sacrifice.

And what really makes the difference if he does reach base when no one else behind him can get a hit?

GIDP
06-14-2009, 02:01 PM
Taveras has 2 sacrifices during his hitless streak, including one last night which moved a runner to 3rd with less than 2 outs. Who's to say he wouldn't have reached base either of those 2 times he was asked to sacrifice.

And what really makes the difference if he does reach base when no one else behind him can get a hit?

I think the other 35 or so times he hasnt gotten a hit are decent proof he wouldnt have gotten a hit those 2 times.

Ghosts of 1990
06-14-2009, 04:42 PM
This team is poorly constructed and we're kidding ourselves to think that the lineup could have us anywhere but last place or just ahead of Houston or Pittsburgh with a little luck. There is no hitter in this lineup who is even a threat anymore. Awful, awful, awful.

Lockdwn11
06-14-2009, 05:11 PM
The reds are pretty banged up right now and it is showing. They are without Votto and EE and the others are pressing. Are they a great offensive team with those players back? No but they are better then they are right now and with the pitching we have it can still be a very fun year.

So all of you that want to jump ship on this team that still is a game over 500 go right ahead and jump. I'm sure you all will be jumping right back on board when the bats heat up you always do.

FlyerFanatic
06-14-2009, 05:15 PM
The reds are pretty banged up right now and it is showing. They are without Votto and EE and the others are pressing. Are they a great offensive team with those players back? No but they are better then they are right now and with the pitching we have it can still be a very fun year.

So all of you that want to jump ship on this team that still is a game over 500 go right ahead and jump. I'm sure you all will be jumping right back on board when the bats heat up you always do.

think we're at .500 now actually

JoeyGears76
06-14-2009, 07:01 PM
I think the other 35 or so times he hasnt gotten a hit are decent proof he wouldnt have gotten a hit those 2 times.

Again, what makes the difference if Taveras gets on base or not? No one behind him is going to drive him in. You're pointing a finger squarely at Taveras for not getting the job done when the entire offense is to blame.

GIDP
06-14-2009, 07:17 PM
Again, what makes the difference if Taveras gets on base or not? No one behind him is going to drive him in. You're pointing a finger squarely at Taveras for not getting the job done when the entire offense is to blame.

You are right no one is to blame because they all suck. Better not change anything.

Ghosts of 1990
06-14-2009, 07:38 PM
The reds are pretty banged up right now and it is showing. They are without Votto and EE and the others are pressing. Are they a great offensive team with those players back? No but they are better then they are right now and with the pitching we have it can still be a very fun year.

So all of you that want to jump ship on this team that still is a game over 500 go right ahead and jump. I'm sure you all will be jumping right back on board when the bats heat up you always do.

I'm not jumping on or off board so much as I am realizing that its completely forseeable for this team to just be 1 or 2 games above and below .500 for the rest of the way. I mean, we may just go 83-79 or 82-80 or vice versa. But this lineup is frustrating to watch and borderline no fun along the way. I miss losing slug fests, that is sad.