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reds44
06-14-2009, 02:03 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a30d0ef0f-fbd2-485e-9cdf-01a1ad08bf68&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com



What's worse? Missing a sign? Or ignoring a sign?

Brandon Phillips came to the plate with runners at first and second – both had reached on walks – and two outs in the fifth inning Saturday night with the Reds down two runs.


The count went to 3-0. Third base coach Mark Berry relayed manager Dusty Baker’s take sign.


“To tell the truth, I didn’t even look down there,” Phillips said. “I was trying to make something happen.”


Phillips flied meekly to right to end the inning.


The Reds would go on to lose 7-4 to the Royals. The Reds have lost three straight. They are just one game over .500 at 31-30. They need to win to tomorrow for a break-ever road trip.


Baker was livid afterward not because of the big picture, but because of Phillips’ indiscretion.


“Brandon was supposed to be taking 3-0,” Baker said. “That could have been the ball game. We had (K.C. starter Kyle Davies) on the ropes. (Phillips) said he didn’t see the sign. In that situation, you’re supposed to know to take.


“That’s a big play in the ballgame. You’ve got to know the score, the inning, the situation.”


Phillips decided to try to lift the offense on his own. The Reds are in the thick of team-wide slump. They’ve scored 40 runs in the last 14 games.


“We was struggling. We wasn’t getting no one on base,” Phillips said. “We weren’t hitting with runners in scoring position. I had an opportunity. I swung 3-0.


“He threw me a nice cutter. If I would have come through, it would have been the best play of the year. I tried to make something happen. For future reference, I will not do it again. I apologized to everybody: My bad for a 3-0 swing. I tried to make something happen.”


“I respect my teammates,” Phillips said. “They see what’s going on. We ain’t faced anyone who’s overmatched us. We haven’t been facing No. 1 pitchers. Our team is too damn good to be getting beat by the pitchers we face. We should be undefeated on this road trip.”


With the way the offensive is going, they really shouldn’t be.


The biggest sign of futility: Leadoff man Willy Taveras went 0-for-4. He’s not on an 0-for-32 skid. That’s the longest by a Red since Denis Menke went 0-for -33 in the 1973.


“It ain’t easy to watch,” Baker said. “We got go back to the drawing board.”


This can't be good.

Redhook
06-14-2009, 07:39 AM
I'm happy that Dusty called out Phillips this time. Phillips needs it. He's one of the dumbest players I've ever seen.

hebroncougar
06-14-2009, 07:51 AM
While not a great decision by Phillips, with the lineups Baker has been constructing, Phillips may have been dumbstruck there were actually 2 men on base in front of him.

reds1869
06-14-2009, 08:04 AM
When Phillips swung I said to my wife "I hope Dusty didn't give him the green light." Looks like Brandon swung on his own after all...what a terrible, terrible decision. The pitcher couldn't have hit a 200 foot target at that point!

Mario-Rijo
06-14-2009, 08:25 AM
I'm not gonna give Dusty any part of the blame on this one. He might not have done himself or the team any favors by calling Phillips out in public but it's hard to argue with Baker's hold sign or anger with BP for doing what he had done. I think I'm more disappointed in how BP comes across in his response, still sounds like he thinks he was doing the right thing and would do it again if he weren't being ripped about it. Obviously if he doesn't get it now after this he likely never will.

Degenerate39
06-14-2009, 08:28 AM
How'd I know this was a John Faye article before I even clicked on the link? But anywho Phillips should probably be benched for a game because he ignored the sign IMO.

traderumor
06-14-2009, 09:05 AM
Remember that play distinctly and wondered what in the world. That is a microcosm of a slumping team--they're already struggling, then it gets worse before it gets better because folks are pressing.

Far East
06-14-2009, 09:10 AM
Baker: “It ain’t easy to watch,” Baker said. “We got go back to the drawing board.”

The drawing board should include Dickerson in CF, at least against RHP.

nate
06-14-2009, 09:24 AM
Just before the 3-0 pitch, George asked Chris if he'd let BP swing and Chris said "absolutely."

FWIW.

westofyou
06-14-2009, 09:44 AM
“To tell the truth, I didn’t even look down there,” Phillips said. “I was trying to make something happen.”

Brandon, you're really not good of a hitter, you best pay attention better.

mth123
06-14-2009, 09:51 AM
I'm happy that Dusty called out Phillips this time. Phillips needs it. He's one of the dumbest players I've ever seen.

This quote from Phillips says it all to me:




"Honestly, in that situation, why wouldn't I swing on 3-0?" Phillips said. "We only had two hits at the time. Our offense stinks right now. I respect my teammates and they know it, too. They see what's going on. We really haven't faced anyone overmatching us. I can understand if we're facing No. 1 pitchers but we're not. Our team is too good to get out by the pitchers we're facing. We should be undefeated on this road trip.

"We're struggling. We're not getting anybody on base. We haven't been hitting with people in scoring position. I had an opportunity. I swung on 3-0. To tell you the truth, I didn't even look down there. I was trying to make something happen."



Maybe some one should tell him that doing the pitchers job for him by swinging when you shouldn't is the primary reason no one is getting on base. The "respects his teammates" part is what gets me. Sounds like he thought he was the only one capable and had to swing there because he didn't want to leave it up to the next guy.

I'm a Phillips supporter and hope he's manning 2b for the next several years, but this is another example of why this team needs a clear "main man" on offense. Votto is stressing, Bruce is swooning and Phillips is appointing himself the guy who has to do it and he's clearly not that caliber of player. This team needs a clear top dog so that these guys can just play their game. Bruce and/or Votto may grow into that and accept the torch in a couple years, but they aren't there yet. I'm starting to believe that dealing off some youth for a top bat may end up paying off more in the future than it would be a win now move. The Reds have talented young players to deal, but they are not so high end that new ones won't come along. Dealing a few won't set the team back as much as force feeding Bruce and Votto into something they aren't ready for might.

PuffyPig
06-14-2009, 10:04 AM
You have to occasionally swing at 3-0 pitches, otherwise the other team will know you never swing and it makes things easy for them.

This was not one of those times.

What I hate is that Phillips says" he threw me a nice cutter". When you do swing 3-0 it's becuase of the situation and becuase you get your pitch in the exact place you want it. You certainly don't swing at the pitchers "nice little cutter".

BCubb2003
06-14-2009, 10:36 AM
I hope this leads to a sharpening of the team's baseball IQ, but does it remind anyone else of other Reds managers who suddenly went "Little Napoleon" on the lollygaggers?

KoryMac5
06-14-2009, 10:45 AM
I would hope that Baker was just as livid about an 80 pitch complete game by Hochevar.

Az Red
06-14-2009, 10:55 AM
Bad signs of losing. Clubhouse is going to be on edge until the hitting begins again. Unfortunately, is there a batter in the Reds lignup to be afraid of?

WMR
06-14-2009, 11:35 AM
We should be undefeated on this road trip.

:laugh: Give me some of what he's smoking.

RedsManRick
06-14-2009, 11:35 AM
Brandon Phillips is well intentioned, but he really needs to understand that you don't become "the guy" by trying to do more than you're capable of. He just wants to be a superstar so badly that he doesn't seem to understand his weaknesses/ limitations.

The lack of "proven" stars on this team might be good for some of the guys, but Phillips needs somebody else to take some of the pressure so that he doesn't feel obligated to try and do it all himself.

Playadlc
06-14-2009, 11:52 AM
If Baker doesn't sit Phillips out a game or two after this then he is going to start losing respect in the clubhouse. You don't blatantly disobey your coach like that.

One of my teammates did this while we were in college. Coach gave him the take sign on a 2-0 count (we were down 5 runs in the last inning), and my teammate swung and fouled one off. Coach takes him out of the game in the middle of his AB and proceeds to sit him out for the next 20 games. He had started every game up until that point. Pretty harsh, but he got his point across.

dsmith421
06-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Brandon needs to shut up for a couple months or years.

VR
06-14-2009, 11:56 AM
“He threw me a nice cutter. If I would have come through, it would have been the best play of the year. I tried to make something happen. For future reference, I will not do it again. I apologized to everybody: My bad for a 3-0 swing. I tried to make something happen.”


That's right Brandon, it may have been the play of the year. Hitting a homerun with a ping pong paddle instead of a bat would be the play of the year to....that doesn't mean you try it.

Tony Cloninger
06-14-2009, 12:02 PM
So Votto....with the possible stress issues he is dealing with...is going to have to come back to this situation? Here Joey....now lead us...we need you more than ever. No pressure here.

CrackerJack
06-14-2009, 12:06 PM
I think Wily can break Meinke's record today if Dusty gives him a chance.

redsfan1966
06-14-2009, 12:55 PM
This is a sign of unfortunately a team that appears to be heading out of control and into a downward spiral....I hope I'm wrong....

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2009, 01:06 PM
Baker talked to Brandon Phillips. It was first time in Baker's years as manager that a player has ignored a 3-0 take sign. "The more he talk (to the media) the worse it sounds," Baker said. "It's over."

You can assume Phillips was fined.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ad8cc2c82-c27e-477e-a2f7-60212aa8edf1&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

TheNext44
06-14-2009, 01:10 PM
I actually thinks this could be a turning point for the team. Controversies like this seem to unify the team, get them focused back on winning.

Two years ago, with the Cubs, Zambrano got into a clubhouse brawl with his catcher Barrett. They were slumping at the time, but they started winning after that. I've seen this numerous times with slumping teams, where an explosion of some kind relieves the tension, and the team unifies and starts winning.

Not sure if this is a big enough one to change the team's mentality, but I hope it is.

BCubb2003
06-14-2009, 01:13 PM
I actually thinks this could be a turning point for the team. Controversies like this seem to unify the team, get them focused back on winning.

Two years ago, with the Cubs, Zambrano got into a clubhouse brawl with his catcher Barrett. They were slumping at the time, but they started winning after that. I've seen this numerous times with slumping teams, where an explosion of some kind relieves the tension, and the team unifies and starts winning.

Not sure if this is a big enough one to change the team's mentality, but I hope it is.

I could see that happening. Everybody might stop trying to be "the man" and just start playing smart baseball.

traderumor
06-14-2009, 01:48 PM
The "respects his teammates" part is what gets me. Sounds like he thought he was the only one capable and had to swing there because he didn't want to leave it up to the next guy.
I think he was alluding to his teammates agreeing with their manager, while he continued to defend his actions.

M2
06-14-2009, 01:52 PM
Pete Rose would have benched Phillips for that ... and then bet on the Royals.

flyer85
06-14-2009, 02:09 PM
team leader ... right

KronoRed
06-14-2009, 02:17 PM
team leader ... right

Chad Johnson like is how it seems.

flyer85
06-14-2009, 02:21 PM
Chad Johnson like is how it seems.me first. Direct challenge to the managers authority. This is likely the beginning of the end ... for somebody or something

traderumor
06-14-2009, 02:38 PM
So Votto....with the possible stress issues he is dealing with...is going to have to come back to this situation? Here Joey....now lead us...we need you more than ever. No pressure here.The MLB is a pressure cooker in any situation. When it is a "nice play to play, a great bunch of guys just having a lot of fun..." well, you have circa 2000-2007 Reds.

fearofpopvol1
06-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Wow, you guys are way too harsh.

It was a bonehead play...Phillips shouldn't have done it. He said he was sorry and wouldn't do it again. Can't you take the guys word?

Something tells me that if Jay Bruce had done that, he would be granted a lot more amnesty than Phillips is.

jojo
06-14-2009, 03:16 PM
Wow, you guys are way too harsh.

It was a bonehead play...Phillips shouldn't have done it. He said he was sorry and wouldn't do it again. Can't you take the guys word?

Something tells me that if Jay Bruce had done that, he would be granted a lot more amnesty than Phillips is.

If Bruce had done that, he would be sitting today.

fearofpopvol1
06-14-2009, 03:19 PM
If Bruce had done that, he would be sitting today.

That's hearsay. I don't think he would've been sitting.

Stephenk29
06-14-2009, 03:49 PM
The most ridiculous thing is swinging at that pitch. Down, away and a cutter. That sucker better be right down the middle and straight as an arrow. That's just bad baseball in general.

Then naturally there's the aftermath. Oh Brandon...

Ltlabner
06-14-2009, 03:56 PM
me first. Direct challenge to the managers authority. This is likely the beginning of the end ... for somebody or something

The very first thing I thought when I read the story was, "The party's over...."

KoryMac5
06-14-2009, 04:12 PM
Chad Johnson like is how it seems.

This doesn't even come close to some of the things Chad does. It was a dumb play by a guy trying to make things happen. Let me know when he starts referring to himself as Quatro.

traderumor
06-14-2009, 04:30 PM
The very first thing I thought when I read the story was, "The party's over...."I didn't.

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2009, 04:41 PM
Manager Dusty Baker was in a discussion mood before Sunday’s game, addressing two majkor issues of the day:

Brandon Phillips and Willy Taveras.

Phillips ignored a take sign on a 3-and-0 pitch Saturday, then tried to defend why he did it.

Taveras, on a 0 for 32 slide to oblivion, was not in Sunday’s lineup and Baker discussed him at length.

On Phillips, who Baker fined for missing a sign, a sign he never even tried to see, although he wouldn’t reveal the amound:

“I collected a lot of money in fines last year. Most of it was collected from a few players. You wish everybody thought like him (trying to do something to win a game). The thought process wasn’t wrong. You want everybody to think like that. I thought like that. It’s like being in the military, you still have to follow orders and that’s what it boils down to. You don’t want to take the thought and desire away.”

Phillips said he didn’t even look for a sign on the 3-and-0 pitch after Kansas City pitcher Kyle Davies had walked six in less than five innings, including two ahead of Phillips in the fifth. Phillips said he was trying to make something happen, trying to score some runs.

“I heard what he said and I talked to him,” Baker said. “Some people are wrong and they talk to try to justify being wrong. That’s the first time it happened to me, that somebody swung away when I gave them the take. I’m the manager and it’s the last time it is going to happen . End of subject. The more you talk, the worse it sounds. So it’s over.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/06/14/manager_dusty_baker_was_in.html

BCubb2003
06-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Dude has his own ballpark. Give him a break.

Tony Cloninger
06-14-2009, 05:48 PM
I don't understand what that means?

BCubb2003
06-14-2009, 06:18 PM
Probably should have had a ;)

Brandon Phillips Field (for the kids) might have gone to his head, or it might mean he's a pretty good guy. Anyway, major-leaguers probably don't get enough do-better talks these days. I don't think any lasting harm comes from it, and maybe some good.

Reds1
06-14-2009, 07:09 PM
anything to fire up this team right now!

Tony Cloninger
06-14-2009, 07:43 PM
I forgot about BP having a field named after him..... I knew it was not Baker...since the field they named for him in Philly has been torn down already. That Phillies park was also a LH hitters haven...maybe JB and JA tailored GAB after the Baker Bowl?

GAC
06-14-2009, 08:14 PM
This kind of stuff needs to be aired in a closed door clubhouse between the coaching staff and players ONLY.

Even if someone in the media asked about that particular situation, the manager should have said something to the effect of "A missed communication. And that's something we will address in the clubhouse. Not before the cameras."

Roy Tucker
06-14-2009, 08:21 PM
I can't get too worked up over it. It was well-intentioned but also ill-conceived. An aggressive mistake.

I do like that Dusty called him out over it. I've always thought that Phillips isn't quite the team leader and caliber player that he thinks he is. Maybe him and Dusty will have a heart-to-heart and Baker will give him a reality check. Don't get me wrong, I think Brandon is good, but not Chase Utley-good.

Ron Madden
06-14-2009, 08:37 PM
Bad signs of losing. Clubhouse is going to be on edge until the hitting begins again. Unfortunately, is there a batter in the Reds lignup to be afraid of?


So much for the "Great Team Chemistry" I guess.

;)

KronoRed
06-14-2009, 08:49 PM
This doesn't even come close to some of the things Chad does. It was a dumb play by a guy trying to make things happen. Let me know when he starts referring to himself as Quatro.

How about "The Captain"? :D

Raisor
06-14-2009, 09:08 PM
How about "The Captain"? :D

Steve Rogers once quit being Captain America for awhile, and took up the ID of "The Captain".

it was stupid.

It did, however, give us John Walker as Captain America, which was very cool. Walker now wears Rogers' old "The Captain" uniform as "USAgent".

TRF
06-14-2009, 09:53 PM
Steve Rogers once quit being Captain America for awhile, and took up the ID of "The Captain".

it was stupid.

It did, however, give us John Walker as Captain America, which was very cool. Walker now wears Rogers' old "The Captain" uniform as "USAgent".

If you weren't a guy, I'd date you.

Raisor
06-14-2009, 09:55 PM
If you weren't a guy, I'd date you.

If I wasn't a guy, I'd have alot of explaining to do to my wife.

Chip R
06-14-2009, 11:40 PM
This kind of stuff needs to be aired in a closed door clubhouse between the coaching staff and players ONLY.

Even if someone in the media asked about that particular situation, the manager should have said something to the effect of "A missed communication. And that's something we will address in the clubhouse. Not before the cameras."


I would think that Dusty would normally do this but it sounds like he was so mad at Brandon that he called him out in the media to embarrass him. Of course Brandon said he wouldn't do it again just like he has said he wouldn't ever not hustle out of the box on a fly ball to the OF.

Scrap Irony
06-15-2009, 12:01 AM
Didn't John Walker end up being Canadian? Or maybe he was just a member of Alpha Flight, the Canadian version of the X-Men?

And all versions of Captain America sans Steve Rogers by definition suck.

Except perhaps the Bucky conundrum. I haven't decided on that one yet.

redsmetz
06-15-2009, 08:16 AM
I would think that Dusty would normally do this but it sounds like he was so mad at Brandon that he called him out in the media to embarrass him. Of course Brandon said he wouldn't do it again just like he has said he wouldn't ever not hustle out of the box on a fly ball to the OF.

Here's the follow up from this a.m.'s Enquirer


Brandon Phillips was back in the lineup Sunday after ignoring a 3-0 take sign Saturday.

Reds manager Dusty Baker indicated, but did not say outright, that he fined Phillips.

"Let’s just say I collected a lot of money last year,” Baker said. “Most of the money was collected from a few.”

Phillips swung away at a 3-0 pitch in Saturday night’s 7-4 loss to the Royals and flied out to right. The play came after Kansas City pitcher Kyle Davies had walked two in the inning.

Afterward Phillips said he didn’t even look for the sign: “I tried to make something happen. For future reference, I will not do it again. I apologized to everybody: My bad for a 3-0 swing. I tried to make something happen.”

Baker was unimpressed with the explanation.

I heard it,” Baker said. “I talked to him about it. He admitted he said it. Some people do wrong and try to justify and make it look right. It’s still wrong.”

Players ignoring a take sign isn’t just unusual, it’s unprecedented.

“It’s the first time it happened to me since I’ve been managing, and it’s the last time it will happen. End of subject,” Baker said. “The more you talk the worse it sounds. It’s over.”

Phillips plays the game with great enthusiasm and clearly wants to win.

“The thought process isn’t wrong,” Baker said. “It’s like the military: You follow orders.”

I really like how Baker is dealing with this and I'm liking the tone he's setting in the clubhouse. He's a player's manager, but he's clear that he's the boss. I hope he's gotten Phillips' attention.

RANDY IN INDY
06-15-2009, 08:24 AM
Here's the follow up from this a.m.'s Enquirer



I really like how Baker is dealing with this and I'm liking the tone he's setting in the clubhouse. He's a player's manager, but he's clear that he's the boss. I hope he's gotten Phillips' attention.

:beerme: I think it is the right way to handle it, as well. Dusty is a player's manager, but Phillips crossed his line and he is calling him out on it. It's the way it should be. Dusty has their back, but he expects the same loyalty from them.

mth123
06-15-2009, 02:07 PM
Here's the follow up from this a.m.'s Enquirer



I really like how Baker is dealing with this and I'm liking the tone he's setting in the clubhouse. He's a player's manager, but he's clear that he's the boss. I hope he's gotten Phillips' attention.

:thumbup:

LINEDRIVER
06-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Phillips decided to make his own decision because he didn't fear the consequences.

IMO, Dusty set that tone by not correcting so many previous problems. I see it as Dusty running a loose ship. With Dusty's Reds, it's too much sloppy fielding, sloppy base running, swinging at ridiculously bad pitches, too much jogging down the first base line on grounders to the shortstop, guys in the lineup who shouldn't be in the lineup, etc, etc.

Perhaps Dusty has learned from this episode that he needs to take a harder stance and being player's manager isn't always the best way.

TRF
06-15-2009, 03:21 PM
If I wasn't a guy, I'd have alot of explaining to do to my wife.


How's that different from now?

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2009, 03:21 PM
Wow, Phillips did something selfish and completely outside of the team element. I am shocked. Shocked I tell you!

wheels
06-15-2009, 04:04 PM
Funny how this kinda stuff pops up when the club is on a skid.

Chicken or Egg?

Raisor
06-15-2009, 06:45 PM
How's that different from now?

She's out of town, I can make up anything I want.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 08:58 AM
Funny how this kinda stuff pops up when the club is on a skid.



Ain't it, though?
:beerme:

Ltlabner
06-16-2009, 09:31 AM
Funny how this kinda stuff pops up when the club is on a skid.

It is amazing how all that magical chemistry evaporates when the team goes on those skids.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 11:51 AM
Isn't important if "that magical chemistry," as you describe it, evaporates on Redszone, which it does every time they lose a few. What's important is what happens in the clubhouse and none of that has been substantiated outside of Phillips not getting the sign or ignoring it. Those things happen over the course of a baseball season. How they handle it in the clubhouse is all that matters. Our perceptions, or the media's perceptions don't amount to a hill of beans. It's a long season.

GAC
06-16-2009, 05:28 PM
Chemistry is vastly over-rated. Can name quite as few winning/championship teams where players were at each other's throats. Give me a roster of guys whose competitveness makes them livid with losing, has fight, and simply aren't going through the motions like it's a 9 to 5 job.

membengal
06-16-2009, 05:40 PM
Funny how this kinda stuff pops up when the club is on a skid.

Chicken or Egg?

Chicken. I don't like eggs.

jojo
06-16-2009, 10:01 PM
Isn't important if "that magical chemistry," as you describe it, evaporates on Redszone, which it does every time they lose a few. What's important is what happens in the clubhouse and none of that has been substantiated outside of Phillips not getting the sign or ignoring it. Those things happen over the course of a baseball season. How they handle it in the clubhouse is all that matters. Our perceptions, or the media's perceptions don't amount to a hill of beans. It's a long season.

It's an unknowable element with an unquantifiable effect-so it should probably be near the very bottom of the to do list regarding building a roster then, right?

Cedric
06-16-2009, 11:42 PM
It's an unknowable element with an unquantifiable effect-so it should probably be near the very bottom of the to do list regarding building a roster then, right?

Only if it doesn't involve Brandon Phillips. According to many here he isn't worth the trouble because of chemistry/attitude.

jojo
06-16-2009, 11:46 PM
Only if it doesn't involve Brandon Phillips. According to many here he isn't worth the trouble because of chemistry/attitude.

Make that a poll question and I think the "many" would be a very small minority.

Ron Madden
06-17-2009, 02:59 AM
Ain't it, though?
:beerme:


Yep, just like the great Team Chemistry you so often agree with as being so responsible for winning streaks. None of us know what's going on inside the clubhouse. The argument of intangeables vs talent will never end.

Can't have one without the other. :beerme:

;)

wheels
06-17-2009, 08:55 AM
Only if it doesn't involve Brandon Phillips. According to many here he isn't worth the trouble because of chemistry/attitude.

Not me.

I'll give guys until they go all Chad Johnson on the club. I even stuck up for that guy until he completely torpedoed his career.

RANDY IN INDY
06-17-2009, 09:04 AM
For me, intangibles come from playing the game the right way on a consistent basis. I know a few ex-major league players, and even coach with one right now, and they all tell me that there is so much more to being a big leaguer than talent alone. So much is expected. They all talk about how long the season is. They all talk about being a good teammate. They all talk about how much they miss the time spent in the clubhouse with the guys. They all talk about how magical it is to be a part of a team that really cares about the "family" that they are during the season and how important it is that they all come together and stick together. They all say that there are always going to be problems in the clubhouse, just like there will always be problems in the family, but it is the teams that have the good overall chemistry that rise above the problems and go about their business in a professional way as a cohesive unit.

It honestly doesn't bother me that some of you guys don't think that team chemistry matters. To each his own. I can only go on my own experiences and with those things that I have been told personally.

HokieRed
06-17-2009, 09:08 AM
I think chemistry is mostly crap. I'd like to see us bring Jose Guillen back for the stretch.

jojo
06-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Does having fun in the clubhouse make the job more enjoyable. Heck ya. Did it help the Reds when Dunn, Kearns, and Jr were keeping things loose in the clubhouse? I dunno since all I remember about that period was alot of losing and gnashing of teeth about recliners.

Maybe they needed a wrap-around couch?

westofyou
06-17-2009, 09:56 AM
For me, intangibles come from playing the game the right way on a consistent basis. I know a few ex-major league players, and even coach with one right now, and they all tell me that there is so much more to being a big leaguer than talent alone. So much is expected. They all talk about how long the season is. They all talk about being a good teammate. They all talk about how much they miss the time spent in the clubhouse with the guys. They all talk about how magical it is to be a part of a team that really cares about the "family" that they are during the season and how important it is that they all come together and stick together. They all say that there are always going to be problems in the clubhouse, just like there will always be problems in the family, but it is the teams that have the good overall chemistry that rise above the problems and go about their business in a professional way as a cohesive unit.

It honestly doesn't bother me that some of you guys don't think that team chemistry matters. To each his own. I can only go on my own experiences and with those things that I have been told personally.


Chemistry is like love, until your life is encompassed by it's often hard to put your finger on.

As for Phillips, he's hardly an attitude problem, he's just young and doesn't know when to say "No comment" (or as your dad might say.. just shut your mouth now and then son) No big issue in my mind, but a small one, that is dealt with by guys who have been around the clubhouses of the game... usually the guys who take care of it do it with little fan knowledge, without getting props for smoothing the invisible chemistry blanket out.

RANDY IN INDY
06-17-2009, 10:08 AM
Does having fun in the clubhouse make the job more enjoyable. Heck ya. Did it help the Reds when Dunn, Kearns, and Jr were keeping things loose in the clubhouse? I dunno since all I remember about that period was alot of losing and gnashing of teeth about recliners.

Maybe they needed a wrap-around couch?

I will relent to your knowledge at this point. Have at it!:)

osuceltic
06-17-2009, 11:27 AM
I will relent to your knowledge at this point. Have at it!:)

Just give up. It's "unknowable" and unmeasurable, so it either doesn't exist or isn't important.

You'll have more success beating your head against a wall.

jojo
06-17-2009, 11:31 AM
I will relent to your knowledge at this point. Have at it!:)

Since you've relented what's left to have at?

Make up-it's important and an intangible I won't quibble about. A player who responds favorably to failure and has a strong work ethic will generally go farther than a player with the exact skill level that doesn't.

However, a player whose ability to hit a fastball depends upon who his teammates are? Could there be a better recipe for embodying "the best laid plans of mice a men" from a GM's standpoint? If chemistry effects a player's performance, I'd suggest it's a sign of poor makeup.

jojo
06-17-2009, 11:32 AM
Just give up. it either doesn't exist or isn't important.

You'll have more success beating your head against a wall.

It's "unknowable" and unmeasurable, so it's effects are often romanticized and very likely exaggerated.

Falls City Beer
06-17-2009, 11:46 AM
Since you've relented what's left to have at?

Make up-it's important and an intangible I won't quibble about. A player who responds favorably to failure and has a strong work ethic will generally go farther than a player with the exact skill level that doesn't.

However, a player whose ability to hit a fastball depends upon who his teammates are? Could there be a better recipe for embodying "the best laid plans of mice a men" from a GM's standpoint? If chemistry effects a player's performance, I'd suggest it's a sign of poor makeup.

I don't have a horse in this race ultimately, as I agree generally that chemistry doesn't count for a whole lot; however, I do think environment can play a role insofar as a highly competitive atmosphere can bring out the best in larger groups of people versus an overall very lax or uninterested atmosphere, an atmosphere infected by year-in year-out futility. That's not a criticism of individual players, but rather a statement about how conditions affect morale. I think the Washington Nationals are probably, as a group, not playing to their absolute capacity; that's not a knock on them necessarily, just a statement about what happens to individuals when circumstance crushes them like a tidal wave.

Nevertheless, the only way to remedy the doldrums is an infusion of talent, not chemistry.

VR
06-17-2009, 12:14 PM
Nevertheless, the only way to remedy the doldrums is an infusion of talent, not chemistry.

I think the disconnect here is about the definition of chemistry.

wheels
06-17-2009, 04:27 PM
To me, Chemistry is a combination of talent that's come together in a way that's conducive to winning.

It's more fun to win when it's a product of a collective effort.

Winning usually breeds good morale. Smiles on faces are fun to watch.

Falls City Beer
06-17-2009, 04:36 PM
Chemistry is the lightening of friction when you're going good, and the deepening of friction when things don't go so well. It can have an impact either way--I do believe that--but certain things have to be in place for it to matter one way or the other.

Roy Tucker
06-17-2009, 04:44 PM
Better be careful talking about chemistry in today's baseball. Bud might get upset.

VR
06-17-2009, 04:52 PM
Chemistry is the lightening of friction when you're going good, and the deepening of friction when things don't go so well. It can have an impact either way--I do believe that--but certain things have to be in place for it to matter one way or the other.

There's the key point.

wheels
06-17-2009, 11:22 PM
Chemistry is the lightening of friction when you're going good, and the deepening of friction when things don't go so well. It can have an impact either way--I do believe that--but certain things have to be in place for it to matter one way or the other.

You said it better than I did.

klw
06-18-2009, 12:40 AM
I just realized that Baker is still livid with Phillips and make sure the situation does not arise again- two on, no outs- he is batting Taveras and A Gone in front of him to ensure there never is anyone on base for him.

Ron Madden
06-18-2009, 02:46 AM
It's "unknowable" and unmeasurable, so it's effects are often romanticized and very likely exaggerated.

Very true, IMHO, without talented pitching it doesn't matter very much.

It's easier and more pleasant to work/play with a group of guys that all get along but talent is a very nessasary ingredient for success.

:)