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View Full Version : Phillips hints players/coaches are upset with Votto?



Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2009, 03:18 PM
I was listening to 97.1 The Fan here in Columbus today (ESPN radio) and the noon-2 hosts were talking about an interview they did with Brandon Phillips late last week. They didn't play any clips, but they both said Phillips strongly hinted that some players and coaches are upset that Votto isn't playing. Did anyone hear about this? Sorry if it's old news. I missed the interview last week, but I caught everything they were saying about it today.

My first reaction is if the players feel that way, BP should NOT be talking about it to the media. That should stay in-house. To be fair, I guess BP didn't say the players/coaches were upset, but he "strongly hinted" it whatever that means. But still, you just have to play it off like everything is cool when you are talking to reporters or you might throw your teammate under the bus.

I can fully understand how a player or coach on the Reds could be a little salty towards Votto right now. No one probably understands what he's going through and they probably think he should "suck it up" even if that's not what he should do from a medical standpoint. But you don't air your dirty laundry to the media. Just another reason this once-promising season is falling apart right before our eyes.

TRF
06-15-2009, 03:20 PM
his defense be damned, the guy can't leave the Reds soon enough for my taste. he's all "me".

George Anderson
06-15-2009, 03:25 PM
Doesn't sound like the Reds clubhouse is very unified.

Reds Freak
06-15-2009, 03:27 PM
My guess is this is your classic case of the media turning something into a story that's not. Trying to stir the pot a little. Especially if they didn't play any clips of the interview and that we haven't heard anything about this out of Cincinnati. I'm sure Joey is killing himself right now that he can't be out there and his teammates are probably well aware of that..

Ltlabner
06-15-2009, 03:29 PM
Doesn't sound like the Reds clubhouse is very unified.

That can't be good for chemistry and the "never say die" attitude often ascribed to this team.

I won't bag on BPhil too hard here. We're taking the word of the radio talk-show guys, who may be totally misinterpreting things. If it comes out that their account of things is accurate, that's a different story.

Caveat Emperor
06-15-2009, 03:31 PM
I'm not shocked.

Phillips has been toughing out an injury through a bad losing streak, has been publicly chastized by his manager for what Brandon feels is "trying to help the team," and sees Votto sitting out this entire time while physically healthy enough to play (by all indications).

I'd be shocked if there wasn't a bit of frustration there.

I(heart)Freel
06-15-2009, 03:42 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.

KoryMac5
06-15-2009, 03:55 PM
I haven't heard the clip yet therefore I can't comment on what Phillips said or didn't say. I would advise other folks not to be so reactionary and err on the side of caution until you hear the interview. I am sure if it was that bad the local media would have been all over it, being that Phillips has been in their doghouse for a period of a few weeks. They were all over the Dunn incident can't see the press letting Phillips get away with popping off about Votto.

Hoosier Red
06-15-2009, 04:00 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.


Remember too this isn't a reporter, who I'd probably trust over two guys talking on the radio.

redsmetz
06-15-2009, 04:02 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.

No offense, but you seem to be suggesting that talk show radio guys are reporters. I don't know this show up in Columbus, and certainly some undertake some journalisting endeavors, but if they're like the folks we have down here, they're anything but reporters.

I can't speak to what Phillips allegedly said or not.

Chip R
06-15-2009, 04:03 PM
Here we go again. Brandon made these type of comments when Josh Hamilton was here.

KronoRed
06-15-2009, 04:05 PM
Here we go again. Brandon made these type of comments when Josh Hamilton was here.

I wonder, maybe, if there is a little jealousy here, Brandon obviously wants to be "THE MAN" and perhaps doesn't look kindly on anyone who would dare challenge that, maybe Bruce, if he starts hitting, will be next ;)

Cedric
06-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Phillips doesn't walk much and he dared criticize Dunn. He's enemy number uno here.

Eric_the_Red
06-15-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm willing to reserve judgment until a transcript or audio of BP's comments are made public. It would seem strange to me, though, that BP would make these types of comments to radio personalities in Columbus and not with anyone in the local media.

If it is true, I'd be disappointed. But I'm not going to blast BP for something unsubstantiated.

osuceltic
06-15-2009, 04:16 PM
A few points:

-- I like Phillips a lot, but I don't think he's the smartest guy in the world.

-- Don't we all know by now that he says what's on his mind, even if it doesn't show great tact or judgment?

-- I can guarantee he isn't the only guy frustrated with Votto. These guys are conditioned to play throught injuries and pain and to miss their families and everything else. They kill themselves trying to win games. When they see a guy who isn't physically hurting going on the DL while the team sinks in the standings, you can bet there is going to be some resentment. It would be true in any clubhouse and was predictable.

Anyway, none of this is especially surprising.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2009, 04:17 PM
I'll withhold judgement until I hear/read what Phillips said.

And internet rumors about Votto are just that - rumors. I put zero stock into them. It makes me mad seeing people spread rumors about Votto when they know absolutely nothing about what's going on.

reds44
06-15-2009, 04:20 PM
I agree with OBM.

REDREAD
06-15-2009, 04:37 PM
If the radio people aren't going to play what Phillips actually said, I'm not going to believe them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phillips said something dumb, but I'm sure if the interview was that damning, they'd be playing it.

traderumor
06-15-2009, 04:41 PM
I heard that the cops are gonna be searching lockers tomorrow and that Billy and Betsy broke up this morning.

Sea Ray
06-15-2009, 04:53 PM
The Reds are in the midst of their worst losing streak of the year and their issue clearly is offense.

Their biggest offensive weapon is gone with no word on when he's coming back or what his situation is.

I'm sure the Reds feel their season slipping away. Another couple weeks like this and it won't matter when Votto comes back.

In the meantime these guys are busting their tails to win games when they know they're generally outmanned.

I'd say players like Phillips aren't human if they don't have a few doubts about the Joey Votto situation.

Degenerate39
06-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Doesn't sound like the Reds clubhouse is very unified.

What?!? I thought that's what would happen when we got rid of Griffey and Dunn!

StillFunkyB
06-15-2009, 05:08 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.

This.

fearofpopvol1
06-15-2009, 07:47 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.

Amen. People are way too quick to jump to judgments about what someone says...especially at RZ.

johngalt
06-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Here we go again. Brandon made these type of comments when Josh Hamilton was here.

Players tend to do that when one of their "injured" teammates is playing pool during a game.

Highlifeman21
06-15-2009, 09:48 PM
Doesn't sound like the Reds clubhouse is very unified.

And to think, the last 2+ years, the clubhouse problems were Dunn & Griffey, right?

Good to see Phillips has grabbed that torch in their absence.

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2009, 09:50 PM
Here is the link of today's archived show. (Well, it's the page where the link is located.)

http://www.971thefan.com/live/content/podcasts/index.html

Go to the second hour of the "Midday Show" and listen around the 17:30 mark. They talk about how Brandon Phillips was on the show last Friday and how BP loves to talk. They said the last question they asked "was about Joey Votto and he wouldn't answer it and he sounded ticked off at Joey Votto." ...

There is more, but the conversation doesn't last for long. The hosts talk about how they've heard rumors that a lot of the team (including coaches and front office personnel) is ticked off at Joey Votto and how Phillips staying silent when asked about just confirms it.

Keep in mind, these two hosts are complete ******s and I rarely listen to them. I was stuck in my car today during most of noon-2 and was surprised to hear that about BP. Again, BP didn't say anything negative about Votto, but these guys think being a walking chatterbox (like BP is) and then choosing to say nothing when asked about Votto, says a lot. Not sure I completely agree with that, but I know what they're saying. (Again, these guys are terrible hosts... which is why they are doing local Columbus, Ohio radio.)

KoryMac5
06-15-2009, 09:55 PM
Here is the link of today's archived show. (Well, it's the page where the link is located.)

http://www.971thefan.com/live/content/podcasts/index.html

Go to the second hour of the "Midday Show" and listen around the 17:30 mark. They talk about how Brandon Phillips was on the show last Friday and how BP loves to talk. They said the last question they asked "was about Joey Votto and he wouldn't answer it and he sounded ticked off about Joey Votto." ...
There is more, but the conversation doesn't last for long.

Keep in mind, these two hosts are complete ******s and I rarely listen to them. I was stuck in my car today during most of noon-2 and was surprised to hear that about BP. Again, BP didn't say anything negative about Votto, but these guys think being a walking chatterbox (like BP is) and then choosing to say nothing when asked about Votto, says a lot. Not sure I completely agree with that, but I know what they're saying. (Again, these guys are terrible hosts... which is why they are doing local Columbus, Ohio radio.)


They were probably upset that Phillips wouldn't give them any fuel to the fire of Votto rumor, speculation and innuendo. When the questions failed they just made something up to get people fired up. In looking at a few of the responses on here I say it worked.

Highlifeman21
06-15-2009, 09:57 PM
PLEASE reserve judgment of BPhil until you hear the exact clip.

That is incredibly lazy and unethical reporting, in this humble journalist's opinion. "Hinted strongly?" Give me a break! Report exactly what he said or shut up. Don't infer! Ever!

I think this is second time Brandon has been hurt by the media taking something he said and putting their own convenient spin on it. If he said, it's nice to have Laynce Nix out there and not Adam Dunn... then that is an Adam Dunn slight. Anything else is exactly what he said, and up to the READER to interpret.

Reporters need to get themselves out of the story, and quick. It's killing this industry.

Or Phillips really was taking a shot @ Dunn while complimenting Nix.

But let's not put our own convenient spin on it to be a Phillips apologist.

I love BPhil's glove, range and all that jazz, but when it comes to his bat (or lack thereof), he's an offensive liability. He awesomely hacktastic, and he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively.

westofyou
06-15-2009, 09:58 PM
Phillips doesn't walk much and he dared criticize Dunn. He's enemy number uno here.

If that's the only reason folks don't buy his "I'm a Leader BS" then they are duped... yep that's the only reason.

Dunn and walks.

Seriously, there is more to his game then his Adam Dunn criticism, just like there is more to those who criticize him than the fact that he's guy who can't decide when to close his mouth.

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2009, 10:04 PM
I found the actual Brandon Phillips interview from last Friday. Here is the link:

http://www.971thefan.com/live/content/tools/player/skin_replay.html?item=88854

Go to the 33:40 mark. As predicted, these idiots are making way too much out of Brandon's comments. All he said was "To be honest, I ain't even feel like talking about that right now..." He also went on to say that the team misses Joey Votto and he doesn't know what is going on. I guess he does sound a little perturbed, but nothing out of the ordinary. They made it sound much worse today. Imagine sports radio hosts exaggerating something. Shocking I tell ya.

Anyway, since I started the thread, I wanted to get to the bottom of it. There you go. No wonder no one in the Cincinnati media picked up on it. They would have looked like they were going out of their way to pick on Phillips. He didn't exactly stick up for Votto in the interview, but he didn't "stay silent" like they made it sound.

KoryMac5
06-15-2009, 10:10 PM
Good research finding the exact interview Blitz. Phillps may have a hard time keeping his piehole closed, he may swing for the fences so hard he pulls a muscle, but I don't think he would throw Votto under the bus when he is going through a stressful time.

KoryMac5
06-15-2009, 10:14 PM
Or Phillips really was taking a shot @ Dunn while complimenting Nix.

But let's not put our own convenient spin on it to be a Phillips apologist.

I love BPhil's glove, range and all that jazz, but when it comes to his bat (or lack thereof), he's an offensive liability. He awesomely hacktastic, and he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively.

A bit harsh using Willy T and Phillips in the same sentence isn't it. Phillips indeed is a liability hitting 4th all of the time and I can concede that point. But I blame that more on Baker than Phillips. But the point remains without his 43 RBI's this season the Reds would be a lot farther from first than 2.5 games especially with Bruce struggling and no Votto or Edwin for a large chunk of games.

Cedric
06-15-2009, 10:18 PM
Or Phillips really was taking a shot @ Dunn while complimenting Nix.

But let's not put our own convenient spin on it to be a Phillips apologist.

I love BPhil's glove, range and all that jazz, but when it comes to his bat (or lack thereof), he's an offensive liability. He awesomely hacktastic, and he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively.

Are you kidding me? A gold glove player with a .835 OPS is the problem on this team? He's comparable to Willy Taveres?

It's pretty obvious from this post alone that one person has a personal agenda against Phillips. How dare he not walk and how dare he criticize the almighty ex 44.

People are tripping over themselves to make anti Phillips comments in this thread. Even when they are writing about something made up by two hack radio hosts. And I'm the one who is making up this thing about an anti Phillips agenda? The Phillips hate is hilariously transparent.

SMcGavin
06-15-2009, 10:22 PM
Are you kidding me? A gold glove player with a .835 OPS is the problem on this team? He's comparable to Willy Taveres?

It's pretty obvious from this post alone that one person has a personal agenda against Phillips. How dare he not walk and how dare he criticize the almighty ex 44.

Yeah, BP is having an excellent year and he's a been major asset on the field.

But the assertion that those who criticize Phillips do so solely because of his criticism of Dunn or his OBP is just ridiculous as comparing BP's contributions to WT's.

Cedric
06-15-2009, 10:25 PM
Yeah, BP is having an excellent year and he's a been major asset on the field.

But the assertion that those who criticize Phillips do so solely because of his criticism of Dunn or his OBP is just ridiculous as comparing BP's contributions to WT's.

Really? If it's so apparent he is having an "excellent year" than what is the angst?

Highlifeman even mentions the Laynce Nix/Dunn comment in his post. I don't know how you randomly missed the major Phillips threads in the past. He was considered a fluke from the get go by certain posters here. They have hated being wrong on him and will take any chance to bash him.

What's more absurd? My point or someone comparing him to Willy Taveres?

jojo
06-15-2009, 10:27 PM
Phillips is one of my least favorite Reds but it would take a lot to convince me that he should be traded and this is even though I don't think there is much chance he'll finish the season with an OPS above .800.

SMcGavin
06-15-2009, 10:34 PM
Really? If it's so apparent he is having an "excellent year" than what is the angst?

Highlifeman even mentions the Laynce Nix/Dunn comment in his post. I don't know how you randomly missed the major Phillips threads in the past. He was considered a fluke from the get go by certain posters here. They have hated being wrong on him and will take any chance to bash him.

What's more absurd? My point or someone comparing him to Willy Taveres?

I like Phillips the player. Excellent defense up the middle, bat is solid for his position despite a poor OBP. I think most of RZ would agree that Phillips is a pretty good player and he's off to a great start to 09.

I really don't like how Phillips handles himself off the field, and I think others fall into that category too. His comments on Dunn are one example, but there are plenty of other ones. This thread was started about his off-field actions, not his play. Yes I've seen plenty of threads talking negatively about BP, but I'd say most of them criticize his off-field actions.

Basically my feelings on Phillips - good player, glad he's on the Reds, but not the biggest fan of him as a person.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2009, 11:19 PM
Or Phillips really was taking a shot @ Dunn while complimenting Nix.

But let's not put our own convenient spin on it to be a Phillips apologist.

I love BPhil's glove, range and all that jazz, but when it comes to his bat (or lack thereof), he's an offensive liability. He awesomely hacktastic, and he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively.

Did you really just compare Phillips and Taveras? Phillips has an .835 OPS while playing plus defense. Taveras has a .572 OPS and plays average at best defense. An .835 OPS is not hurting the team. If the Reds had a few more .835 OPS hitters they would probably be in first place.

Boss-Hog
06-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Are you kidding me? A gold glove player with a .835 OPS is the problem on this team? He's comparable to Willy Taveres?

It's pretty obvious from this post alone that one person has a personal agenda against Phillips. How dare he not walk and how dare he criticize the almighty ex 44.

People are tripping over themselves to make anti Phillips comments in this thread. Even when they are writing about something made up by two hack radio hosts. And I'm the one who is making up this thing about an anti Phillips agenda? The Phillips hate is hilariously transparent.


Did you really just compare Phillips and Taveras? Phillips has an .835 OPS while playing plus defense. Taveras has a .572 OPS and plays average at best defense. An .835 OPS is not hurting the team. If the Reds had a few more .835 OPS hitters they would probably be in first place.

I agree - I can't believe I just read that, either.

dfs
06-15-2009, 11:54 PM
I like Phillips the player. Excellent defense up the middle, bat is solid for his position despite a poor OBP. I think most of RZ would agree that Phillips is a pretty good player and he's off to a great start to 09.

I really don't like how Phillips handles himself off the field, and I think others fall into that category too. His comments on Dunn are one example, but there are plenty of other ones. This thread was started about his off-field actions, not his play. Yes I've seen plenty of threads talking negatively about BP, but I'd say most of them criticize his off-field actions.

Basically my feelings on Phillips - good player, glad he's on the Reds, but not the biggest fan of him as a person.
Like all players Phillips has his pluses and minuses.
He moves back on pop flies as well as anybody. He moves to his right very very well. Unfortunately he pretty much waves at everything to his left. He makes this weird backwards dive that looks like effort, but pretty much makes sure that he doesn't get to anything. He makes some stupid throws, and that's often written off as aggressivenes.

At the plate he shows pretty spectacular splits. He destroys lefties at home. Right handers on the road on the other hand make him look like Juan Castro. There's a lot of right handed pitching in the league and they play half their games on the road.

I would rate him a slightly above average starting player. He's not going to push a team to the playoffs by himself, but he can certainly play a little. The sad thing about Phillips is that since he's a cleanup hitting star second baseman, they can't find a way to use him that minimizes his flaws.

If he's the best player on the reds, then that says more about how bad the reds are than how good Brandon Phillips is.

corkedbat
06-16-2009, 12:34 AM
Phillips wanted the spotlight when Dunn and Griffey left town. Doesn't want to share it. He can't leave town quick enough for me. He's stayed too long by at least a year as it is. Probably to late to get anything of value for him as it now stands.

smith288
06-16-2009, 12:40 AM
Here is the link of today's archived show. (Well, it's the page where the link is located.)

http://www.971thefan.com/live/content/podcasts/index.html

Go to the second hour of the "Midday Show" and listen around the 17:30 mark. They talk about how Brandon Phillips was on the show last Friday and how BP loves to talk. They said the last question they asked "was about Joey Votto and he wouldn't answer it and he sounded ticked off at Joey Votto." ...

There is more, but the conversation doesn't last for long. The hosts talk about how they've heard rumors that a lot of the team (including coaches and front office personnel) is ticked off at Joey Votto and how Phillips staying silent when asked about just confirms it.

Keep in mind, these two hosts are complete ******s and I rarely listen to them. I was stuck in my car today during most of noon-2 and was surprised to hear that about BP. Again, BP didn't say anything negative about Votto, but these guys think being a walking chatterbox (like BP is) and then choosing to say nothing when asked about Votto, says a lot. Not sure I completely agree with that, but I know what they're saying. (Again, these guys are terrible hosts... which is why they are doing local Columbus, Ohio radio.)

I like those guys on the midday show. Riccordati reminds me of a friend fro
school or something. He calls himself "common man" making fun of himself and not taking himself or his profession so seriously.

I agree with their assesment. He said it like he would rather not touch the subject. Nothing wrong with speculating especially with the midday show which is supposed to feel like you are chatting at bw3 but on the radio.

Either way, when you go on radio, you run the risk of having your words (or lack thereof in this situation) examined with a microscope.

Degenerate39
06-16-2009, 12:55 AM
Phillips wanted the spotlight when Dunn and Griffey left town. Doesn't want to share it. He can't leave town quick enough for me. He's stayed too long by at least a year as it is. Probably to late to get anything of value for him as it now stands.

To a degree I agree with you but he's the best option we have at second base for now. Unless they move Frazier or someone there then he'll be there for a while IMO.

VR
06-16-2009, 01:03 AM
I guarantee the Reds players have gotten a very clear lesson on HIPAA laws....and thusly have a gag order around Joey's situation.

I was down on BP early...but was quite impressed to see his change his approach at the dish and start using right field....even though it was obviously painful the first couple of weeks.

It seems Dusty's influence on his batting approach (don't recall the comments, but he clearly expressed working with BP when he was mired in his slump)...and now calling out his failure to take a pitch....may be reigning in BP's 'big timing'. We'll see.

WVRedsFan
06-16-2009, 02:55 AM
Brandon just needs to keep his mouth shut. He needs to learn the media (which I am part of to some extent) will take anything you say and use it. He wants to be a leader, but leading has a lot more to do with not running your mouth without your brain engaged. Yep, I'd bet the coaches and the FO as well as the players are confused about Votto's situation, but to air it at this time is not smart. Brandon is a good player, but he is not the great player he thinks he is. He's not the problem, and if the press would not think he is the team leader (which he is not), he would quit making these comments.

Ron Madden
06-16-2009, 03:39 AM
Phillips doesn't walk much and he dared criticize Dunn. He's enemy number uno here.

Seems to me the vast majority of post in this or any other thread are on Brandons side.

Topcat
06-16-2009, 05:33 AM
How in god's name unless as stated this is a press issue trying to stir stuff up does Brandon do this to Joey really ? It is an unwise thing to do to a talented kid with no history of being a lazy stiff. I want to believe this is a press causing much a do about nothing and leave it at that. But BPhil just hit my radar and will follow his actions and mouth going forward.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Did you really just compare Phillips and Taveras? Phillips has an .835 OPS while playing plus defense. Taveras has a .572 OPS and plays average at best defense. An .835 OPS is not hurting the team. If the Reds had a few more .835 OPS hitters they would probably be in first place.

I compared Phillips to Taveras based on where Phillips bats in the lineup. Batting Phillips any higher than 5th, or more accurately 6th vs RHP is a monumental mistake, yet we continue to see it. b/c The Dusty doesn't know how to make up a lineup directly influences Phillips' detrimental impact to the Reds offensively when he's misused (which is often).

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:14 AM
Are you kidding me? A gold glove player with a .835 OPS is the problem on this team? He's comparable to Willy Taveres?

It's pretty obvious from this post alone that one person has a personal agenda against Phillips. How dare he not walk and how dare he criticize the almighty ex 44.

People are tripping over themselves to make anti Phillips comments in this thread. Even when they are writing about something made up by two hack radio hosts. And I'm the one who is making up this thing about an anti Phillips agenda? The Phillips hate is hilariously transparent.

I've always loved Phillips defensively, I've just never cared for him offensively b/c he's never met a pitch at which he won't swing and isn't a team player. He's the Terrell Owens of the Reds. Me first player, doesn't help our chemistry at all. It's not that Phillips doesn't walk, it's that his approach at the plate is a trainwreck, and at a macro level is a liability.

I don't have a personal agenda against Phillips at all, and I've remained consistent in my thoughts, feelings, opinions, emotions and posts about Phillips since he's been a Red. Phillips wants to be a leader, yet can't even scratch the surface on where to begin to be the leader the Reds need, let alone be the leader he thinks he is.

Boss-Hog
06-16-2009, 07:15 AM
I compared Phillips to Taveras based on where Phillips bats in the lineup. Batting Phillips any higher than 5th, or more accurately 6th vs RHP is a monumental mistake, yet we continue to see it. b/c The Dusty doesn't know how to make up a lineup directly influences Phillips' detrimental impact to the Reds offensively when he's misused (which is often).
That's not at all what you said in your original post:


I love BPhil's glove, range and all that jazz, but when it comes to his bat (or lack thereof), he's an offensive liability. He awesomely hacktastic, and he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively.

Boss-Hog
06-16-2009, 07:18 AM
He awesomely hacktastic


It's not that Phillips doesn't walk, it's that his approach at the plate is a trainwreck, and at a macro level is a liability.

Which is it?

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:21 AM
I agree - I can't believe I just read that, either.

It's an opinion based on personal observation.

I thought RedsZone encouraged that kinda thing?

On the field, Phillips has contributed immensely during his time as a Red, is exciting to watch, and I hope every ball of every game is hit to him so I can watch him make gem and gem of plays.

At the plate, I can't watch. I don't remember if it was Wednesday's or Thursday's game vs the Nationals, but I'm sitting with a group of buddies and I say 4 6 3, or 6 4 3? I went with 4 6 3, and I was right. It was very predictable. I don't want other teams thinking the same thing, b/c in the long run it hurts the Reds b/c they know that Phillips will do their job for them. Phillips will get himself out, the other team need not try. The missed sign vs the Royals and Phillips flew out on the 3-0? Prime example.

The fact that no manager has consistently batted Phillips is a spot in the lineup where he can succeed doesn't help him in my eyes, either. Sure, that's not Phillips fault, but at the same time many here have criticized players for not knowing the situation and how to produce/come through, so add me to that list of criticizing Phillips in that fashion.

Phillips as a person? He equals TO in my book.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:23 AM
Which is it?

He doesn't have to take walks to be effective. He just has to not consistently swing at balls out of the zone.

Would it kill him to work a count and make a pitcher throw more pitches?

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:25 AM
That's not at all what you said in your original post:

Sorry, figured based on my post history about Willy T shouldn't be our leadoff hitter and Phillips also hits way too high in the lineup had already established the base of my posting philosophy concerning the two.

I guess I just need to repeat myself early and often around here, that way people don't spin my words.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 07:48 AM
The comparisons of Phillips to TO are astoundingly ridiculous. Superficial at best, and we know what that means.

Strikes Out Looking
06-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Simply put, Brandon Phillips is not the problem.

Roy Tucker
06-16-2009, 08:11 AM
Like I've said here before, I think BP is a pretty good player (maybe top 1/3 in MLB 2B) but he isn't as much of a team leader or as good of a player as he thinks he is, but this is all a non-story. BP didn't pop off about Votto.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-16-2009, 08:33 AM
Like I've said here before, I think BP is a pretty good player (maybe top 1/3 in MLB 2B) but he isn't as much of a team leader or as good of a player as he thinks he is, but this is all a non-story. BP didn't pop off about Votto.

I agree with everything here.

Ltlabner
06-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Which is it?

Actually both of those posts said the same thing.

He's hacktastic, which by definition means his approach at the plate is a train-wreck. Not sure how those comments could be construed as being different.

He's a talented guy which quick wrists and some power. There's no denying that, but it's equally foolish to pretend that his plan at the plate is anything other than looking to crush anything within 8 feet of the plate. That's the definition of being a trainwreck at the plate.

BPhil's strengths and weaknesses are clear for anyone who's willing to look for them. Versus Lefties? Look out...he's going to kill you. Versus righties? Yawn. Numbers over the past three years.


AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs Left .316 .364 .550 .914
vs Right .259 .306 .414 .720

As a package BPhil is not in the same galaxy versus Willy T let alone ballpark. Look at the macro and Bhil gives you power versus lefties, rock solid defense and a modicum of speed. Willy T gives you....well....fits of rage and nothing else.

However, versus right handers, when he's batting fourth, and is in a particularly swing happy mood? Yea, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to say he's approaching Willy T land with what he does (or doesn't do) at the plate. I'm not sure how you could objectively come to any other conclusion.

By the way, here's Willy T's info from the past three years....



AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs Right .277 .330 .330 .660


Comparing BPhil to TO might be a bit strong. However, Brandon does have a track record of ticking off organizations, saying some questionable things and having a desire to want to be the sole center of attention. In this situation it's as most of us suspected....a couple of goofball radio guys trying to stir something up. But it's not like Brandon is the model of maturity and good decision making either.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 08:47 AM
I agree - I can't believe I just read that, either.

Post of the year.:beerme:

Razor Shines
06-16-2009, 08:59 AM
Seems to me the vast majority of post in this or any other thread are on Brandons side.

Yep, just as they were in the thread in which he may or may not have criticized Dunn.

TRF
06-16-2009, 09:16 AM
Casual fans love BP. He hustles, smiles does good deeds for kids.

Hardcore fans criticize BP for his approach, that he's owned against RH pitching, that he bats himself (apparently) 4th in the lineup.

I'm not a huge fan of the person, as I see him as a me first guy. I appreciate his game even with the flaws. It probably isn't his fault that his manager doesn't have enough sense to look at splits and see that he's OWNED by RH pitching. But he's thrown more than one player under the bus and that act has gotten old. It isn't the player, it's the man I dislike. I don't know Brandon Phillips, but he sure seems to have a knack for excuses and saying the wrong thing.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 09:20 AM
It isn't the player, it's the man I dislike. I don't know Brandon Phillips,

In that case, I'd use the energy some other way.

Jpup
06-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Casual fans love BP. He hustles, smiles does good deeds for kids.

Hardcore fans criticize BP for his approach, that he's owned against RH pitching, that he bats himself (apparently) 4th in the lineup.

I'm not a huge fan of the person, as I see him as a me first guy. I appreciate his game even with the flaws. It probably isn't his fault that his manager doesn't have enough sense to look at splits and see that he's OWNED by RH pitching. But he's thrown more than one player under the bus and that act has gotten old. It isn't the player, it's the man I dislike. I don't know Brandon Phillips, but he sure seems to have a knack for excuses and saying the wrong thing.

I thought it was just me. ;)

osuceltic
06-16-2009, 09:25 AM
Casual fans love BP. He hustles, smiles does good deeds for kids.

Hardcore fans criticize BP for his approach, that he's owned against RH pitching, that he bats himself (apparently) 4th in the lineup.

I'm not a huge fan of the person, as I see him as a me first guy. I appreciate his game even with the flaws. It probably isn't his fault that his manager doesn't have enough sense to look at splits and see that he's OWNED by RH pitching. But he's thrown more than one player under the bus and that act has gotten old. It isn't the player, it's the man I dislike. I don't know Brandon Phillips, but he sure seems to have a knack for excuses and saying the wrong thing.

I'm a hardcore fan and I like Phillips. I didn't like his lack of hustle (the long single and similar plays) early in the season, but something turned him around (probably that idiot Dusty) and he has been busting his tail for quite a while.

The angst over his spot in the lineup is funny. As if we're drunk with better options.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 09:36 AM
I'm a hardcore fan and I like Phillips. I didn't like his lack of hustle (the long single and similar plays) early in the season, but something turned him around (probably that idiot Dusty) and he has been busting his tail for quite a while.

Exactly right. Anyone who has been paying close attention sees this. He's playing harder than he ever has.

jojo
06-16-2009, 09:40 AM
I don't think Phillips has tried any harder recently than he normally does if by trying harder it means he's tried his best.

westofyou
06-16-2009, 09:44 AM
Exactly right. Anyone who has been paying close attention sees this. He's playing harder than he ever has.

Harder then he did when he came over from Cleveland?

Can that statement be quantified?

The one thing that can be quantified is his approach, his splits and his propensity to be quoted, as for "playing harder" I just don't see any difference from the guy who's been playing here for a few years.

I(heart)Freel
06-16-2009, 09:51 AM
As if any of us know how these players are as "men."

For all we know, Brandon goes over to Bruce's apartment every day with a carton of Graeters after Bruce goes 0-fer. Maybe Brandon is texting Votto right now to see how he's holding up.

Bottom-line: we don't know. Never will.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 10:06 AM
The one thing that can be quantified is his approach, his splits and his propensity to be quoted, as for "playing harder" I just don't see any difference from the guy who's been playing here for a few years.

Sorry if you don't see it. He's running out balls harder, for sure. That counts for something, even if it's intangible, barely a small number in the ledger every few weeks.

westofyou
06-16-2009, 10:10 AM
Sorry if you don't see it. He's running out balls harder, for sure. That counts for something, even if it's intangible, barely a small number in the ledger every few weeks.

I see the same guy I guess, I'm hearing more about him (albeit from Brandon Phillips) then I have in the past.

OnBaseMachine
06-16-2009, 10:19 AM
He doesn't have to take walks to be effective. He just has to not consistently swing at balls out of the zone.

Would it kill him to work a count and make a pitcher throw more pitches?

Phillips has walked 22 times this season and is on pace to walk 61 times. That would top his previous career high in walks by 20+. He's also seeing 3.83 P/PA. All the things you are critisizing him for would've been fine in past years but not 2009. He's seeing more pitches and walking more this season. He still has his share of bad atbats but not as many as in the past.

I don't have much of a problem with Brandon Phillips the person either. From what I've read, he doesn't drink or smoke. He almost always signs autographs for kids. He helps a lot in the community. IIRC he recently donated about $35,000 dollars of his own money to build a baseball field for kids. He does say some stupid things sometimes that deserve criticism but this is not one of those times, IMO. I haven't yet heard the interview he gave about Votto, but if you believe what those have heard it said, it was blown out of proportion by the guys on radio. But if Phillips were to make some comments about Votto, I would lose some respect for him.

I'm far from a Brandon Phillips apoligist. I like him but he's not my favorite player. I just think he's been unfairly critisized a little in this thread.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 10:22 AM
I see the same guy I guess, I'm hearing more about him (albeit from Brandon Phillips) then I have in the past.

We all see different things, that's no surprise.

Phillips is not the most polished guy, and, if he's a bit egocentric, he surely is not the only pro athlete who is. The fact is, the guy is very fan friendly and does a lot in the community. That tells me he has chosen a positive, productive way to be in the limelight, if one has to see his public persona as somehow self-aggrandizing.

Very good ballplayer, too.

nate
06-16-2009, 11:27 AM
Exactly right. Anyone who has been paying close attention sees this. He's playing harder than he ever has.

In other words, he was ripping us off before?

:cool:

Hoosier Red
06-16-2009, 11:33 AM
Another thing to keep in mind. There's really nothing wrong with being frustrated with Votto. It's a human reaction. I'd probably be a little frustrated too.
The fact that he's frustrated doesn't make him a monster, and the fact that he kept his mouth shut, avoided a potentially messy question and refused to criticize his teammate should make you gain respect not lose it.

The fact of the matter is nobody knows whats' going on, so that has to be frustrating on a lot of levels. Brandon wouldn't be blaming Votto in anyway, but it would be impossible not to be frustrated.

reds44
06-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Phillips has walked 22 times this season and is on pace to walk 61 times. That would top his previous career high in walks by 20+. He's also seeing 3.83 P/PA. All the things you are critisizing him for would've been fine in past years but not 2009. He's seeing more pitching and walking more this season. He still has his share of bad atbats but not as many as in the past.

I don't have much of a problem with Brandon Phillips the person either. From what I've read, he doesn't drink or smoke. He almost always signs autographs for kids. He helps a lot in the community. IIRC he recently donated about $35,000 dollars of his own money to build a baseball field for kids. He does say some stupid things sometimes that deserve criticism but this is not one of those times, IMO. I haven't yet heard the interview he gave about Votto, but if you believe what those have heard it said, it was blown out of proportion by the guys on radio. But if Phillips were to make some comments about Votto, I would lose some respect for him.

I'm far from a Brandon Phillips apoligist. I like him but he's not my favorite player. I just think he's been unfairly critisized a little in this thread.
Great post. Phillips is guilty sometimes of saying stuff he shouldn't, but he's not exactly a bad guy. Hell, I say stuff I shouldn't sometimes.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2009, 11:41 AM
In other words, he was ripping us off before?

He had his lapses. But in the context of the Griffey-Dunn teams, that wasn't especially unusual, the way I saw it.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Agree. Great post, OnBaseMachine. Thanks for posting.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 11:45 AM
He had his lapses. But in the context of the Griffey-Dunn teams, that wasn't especially unusual, the way I saw it.

Agree on this too. Had the lapses and still does from time to time. Hopefully, expectations get higher and it gets better going forward. Baker sent him a message. I hope he responds positively.

nate
06-16-2009, 11:59 AM
He had his lapses. But in the context of the Griffey-Dunn teams, that wasn't especially unusual, the way I saw it.

Comedy gold!

Brutus
06-16-2009, 12:01 PM
Harder then he did when he came over from Cleveland?

Can that statement be quantified?

The one thing that can be quantified is his approach, his splits and his propensity to be quoted, as for "playing harder" I just don't see any difference from the guy who's been playing here for a few years.

Really? The numbers, while not necessarily night and day, are pretty significantly different in terms of discipline.

Brandon Phillips...


P/PA BB% BB/K GPA
2009 3.83 9.2 0.88 0.277
2008 3.58 6.4 0.42 0.251
2007 3.57 4.7 0.30 0.270
2006 3.65 6.0 0.40 0.253

Boss-Hog
06-16-2009, 12:25 PM
It's an opinion based on personal observation.

I thought RedsZone encouraged that kinda thing?

We definitely do, but it certainly helps to be able to back up your opinion with any relevant facts. Equating Brandon Phillips and Willy Taveras and 2009 without any factual evidence is going to provoke the type of responses you received.


The fact that no manager has consistently batted Phillips is a spot in the lineup where he can succeed doesn't help him in my eyes, either. Sure, that's not Phillips fault, but at the same time many here have criticized players for not knowing the situation and how to produce/come through, so add me to that list of criticizing Phillips in that fashion.

As you openly admit, that's not his fault, nor is it anything he has any control over. If this is your issue, perhaps you should be blaming the people responsible for putting together this (and past) team for not acquiring a more ideal cleanup hitter?


Phillips as a person? He equals TO in my book.

Well, at least you made it clear that's your opinion.


Sorry, figured based on my post history about Willy T shouldn't be our leadoff hitter and Phillips also hits way too high in the lineup had already established the base of my posting philosophy concerning the two.

I guess I just need to repeat myself early and often around here, that way people don't spin my words.

There's no spinning necessary when you phrased it how you did - "he's approaching the Willy T level of hurting the team offensively." That makes zero connection to anything concerning lineup placement (which you admit he has no control over anywhere), so if anyone is trying to spin words, I think it's now you over what you originally said.

By the way, just for the sake of this debate, I don't have the numbers handy, but I'd be willing to bet that if you compared Taveras in 2009 to the average leadoff hitter vs. Phillips in 2009 to the average cleanup hitter, in terms of OPS, there is quite a difference in how they stack how against their peers (despite what you may think).


He doesn't have to take walks to be effective. He just has to not consistently swing at balls out of the zone.

Would it kill him to work a count and make a pitcher throw more pitches?

OnBaseMachine's posts proved he's doing exactly that in 2009. What more do you want?


Actually both of those posts said the same thing.

He's hacktastic, which by definition means his approach at the plate is a train-wreck. Not sure how those comments could be construed as being different.

He's a talented guy which quick wrists and some power. There's no denying that, but it's equally foolish to pretend that his plan at the plate is anything other than looking to crush anything within 8 feet of the plate. That's the definition of being a trainwreck at the plate.

BPhil's strengths and weaknesses are clear for anyone who's willing to look for them. Versus Lefties? Look out...he's going to kill you. Versus righties? Yawn. Numbers over the past three years.


AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs Left .316 .364 .550 .914
vs Right .259 .306 .414 .720As a package BPhil is not in the same galaxy versus Willy T let alone ballpark. Look at the macro and Bhil gives you power versus lefties, rock solid defense and a modicum of speed. Willy T gives you....well....fits of rage and nothing else.

However, versus right handers, when he's batting fourth, and is in a particularly swing happy mood? Yea, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to say he's approaching Willy T land with what he does (or doesn't do) at the plate. I'm not sure how you could objectively come to any other conclusion.

By the way, here's Willy T's info from the past three years....



AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs Right .277 .330 .330 .660
Comparing BPhil to TO might be a bit strong. However, Brandon does have a track record of ticking off organizations, saying some questionable things and having a desire to want to be the sole center of attention. In this situation it's as most of us suspected....a couple of goofball radio guys trying to stir something up. But it's not like Brandon is the model of maturity and good decision making either.

Fair enough - I'm not even getting into the off the field stuff. I understand why he rubs some the wrong way. My original posts were made in response to the comparison between Brandon Phillips and Willy Taveras in 2009 (on the field), which I find to be a far-fetched comparison, at best.

ochre
06-16-2009, 12:27 PM
Really? The numbers, while not necessarily night and day, are pretty significantly different in terms of discipline.

Brandon Phillips...


P/PA BB% BB/K GPA
2009 3.83 9.2 0.88 0.277
2008 3.58 6.4 0.42 0.251
2007 3.57 4.7 0.30 0.270
2006 3.65 6.0 0.40 0.253


woy was talking about the playing harder angle.

Those stats do indicate an improved plate approach, but that's not really what he was talking about.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Playing harder or playing smarter? He does have a hard time with the latter at times. It doesn't take any skill to hustle, and I think he may be trying to be a leader by example in that regard. Trying harder usually is a recipe for disaster in baseball.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 01:20 PM
Fair enough - I'm not even getting into the off the field stuff. I understand why he rubs some the wrong way. My original posts were made in response to the comparison between Brandon Phillips and Willy Taveras in 2009 (on the field), which I find to be a far-fetched comparison, at best.


And that is right on the money.

jojo
06-16-2009, 01:41 PM
Really? The numbers, while not necessarily night and day, are pretty significantly different in terms of discipline.

Brandon Phillips...


P/PA BB% BB/K GPA
2009 3.83 9.2 0.88 0.277
2008 3.58 6.4 0.42 0.251
2007 3.57 4.7 0.30 0.270
2006 3.65 6.0 0.40 0.253



I think care should be taken when assuming a difference in a performance measure is an actual reflection of a change in a player's true skill.

For instance, the difference in BP's walk rate between '09 to date and his previous years is primarily driven by the walks he accrued over a ten game stretch in early April. In the PAs since then, his walk rate has regressed back to a level that reflects previous years. The same can be said for his BB/K rate etc.

He had a power surge during a stretch in May that is driving his current GPA.

Bottom line, there is a stronger case to be made that randomness (rather than a change in true skill) has driven the current spike in Phillips' '09 values listed above.

Team Clark
06-16-2009, 02:28 PM
Phiilips' motivation is to win. I don't have a problem with that. If he chooses to speak his mind and talk about issues that the beat writers are too scared to write about. So be it. Could he use better discretion? Yep. Would this team be worse without BP? Oh Yeah. Take the good with the bad. I may not like his uppercut swing or his approach but I sure would want him on my team. He works hard to get better in every facet of his game. I'll take that every day.

durl
06-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I believe it would be in Phillips' best interest to hire a media coach. Even if this particular instance is blown out of proportion, it would still be good for him.

Big Klu
06-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Phiilips' motivation is to win. I don't have a problem with that. If he chooses to speak his mind and talk about issues that the beat writers are too scared to write about. So be it. Could he use better discretion? Yep. Would this team be worse without BP? Oh Yeah. Take the good with the bad. I may not like his uppercut swing or his approach but I sure would want him on my team. He works hard to get better in every facet of his game. I'll take that every day.

I second that.

Brutus
06-16-2009, 03:24 PM
I think care should be taken when assuming a difference in a performance measure is an actual reflection of a change in a player's true skill.

For instance, the difference in BP's walk rate between '09 to date and his previous years is primarily driven by the walks he accrued over a ten game stretch in early April. In the PAs since then, his walk rate has regressed back to a level that reflects previous years. The same can be said for his BB/K rate etc.

He had a power surge during a stretch in May that is driving his current GPA.

Bottom line, there is a stronger case to be made that randomness (rather than a change in true skill) has driven the current spike in Phillips' '09 values listed above.

I don't agree, at all. Walk rates and strikeout rates are more about discipline. While skill level is involved, these are often driven by patience and selectivity at the plate. He's said several times since the beginning of the season that he's trying to be more selective with pitches, and thus far the numbers have completely supported that attempt.

His power surge is not driving the current GPA. It's his improved on base percentage (which is currently 20 points higher than his career best). His power numbers are not that much better than a few of the past couple of seasons in terms of slugging.

If his walk rate was inflated a ton but he were not seeing many more pitches, I would argue that we're talking about 'randomness.' However, that is not the case and in fact, his BB/K rate has held steady most of the season.

Blitz Dorsey
06-16-2009, 03:45 PM
Another thing to keep in mind. There's really nothing wrong with being frustrated with Votto. It's a human reaction. I'd probably be a little frustrated too.
The fact that he's frustrated doesn't make him a monster, and the fact that he kept his mouth shut, avoided a potentially messy question and refused to criticize his teammate should make you gain respect not lose it.

The fact of the matter is nobody knows whats' going on, so that has to be frustrating on a lot of levels. Brandon wouldn't be blaming Votto in anyway, but it would be impossible not to be frustrated.

Good point.

jojo
06-16-2009, 04:06 PM
I don't agree, at all. Walk rates and strikeout rates are more about discipline. While skill level is involved, these are often driven by patience and selectivity at the plate. He's said several times since the beginning of the season that he's trying to be more selective with pitches, and thus far the numbers have completely supported that attempt.

His power surge is not driving the current GPA. It's his improved on base percentage (which is currently 20 points higher than his career best). His power numbers are not that much better than a few of the past couple of seasons in terms of slugging.

If his walk rate was inflated a ton but he were not seeing many more pitches, I would argue that we're talking about 'randomness.' However, that is not the case and in fact, his BB/K rate has held steady most of the season.

His BB/K has steadily dropped by month....



BB% K% BB/K GPA OPS
April 13.8 12.5 1.1 0.215 0.619
May 6.4 7.4 0.9 0.348 1.080
June 8.8 14.0 0.6 0.243 0.720



His BB rate for the season is driven be an unusually high walk rate in April that has since dropped. His GPA is driven by a stretch in May where he had a run of 14 games that included 9 multiple hit contests which incidentally coincided with the month in which he posted his lowest walk rate.

It's hard to see a change in approach characterized by increased patience and selectivity in the inconsistent splits above. Rather, Brandon had a hot streak in May where hits drove his OBP and an unusual walk streak in April that has caused his seasonal walk rate to be higher than one would expect.

Brutus
06-16-2009, 04:30 PM
His BB/K has steadily dropped by month....



BB% K% BB/K GPA OPS
April 13.8 12.5 1.1 0.215 0.619
May 6.4 7.4 0.9 0.348 1.080
June 8.8 14.0 0.6 0.243 0.720



His BB rate for the season is driven be an unusually high walk rate in April that has since dropped. His GPA is driven by a stretch in May where he had a run of 14 games that included 9 multiple hit contests which incidentally coincided with the month in which he posted his lowest walk rate.

It's hard to see a change in approach characterized by increased patience and selectivity in the inconsistent splits above. Rather, Brandon had a hot streak in May where hits drove his OBP and an unusual walk streak in April that has caused his seasonal walk rate to be higher than one would expect.

You could go through almost any player and parse their numbers by month and see inconsistency, even within peripherals. On the whole, however, he's been better than his career mostly across the board. And actually, his walk rate so far halfway through June is better than it was in May, so it has not steadily dropped by Month. Nevermind the fact he's 27 years old (turning 28 later this month) - the age when many, many players have breakthrough seasons or begin to show much more discipline at the plate.

I think it's important to give the maturation process a chance. Players' discipline and approach do change over time in many cases (clearly not all). Skill levels can and do change. If they didn't, what would be the point of practice? We are a little over a third of the way through the season. And thus far, as a whole, his walks are up, strikeouts are down, he's seeing more pitches, getting on base more often, hitting for more isolated power all the while his swing percentage is at a career low. That's an awful lot to just quickly dismiss as randomness for a 27-year old, when we're in the middle of June. At very least, it's far enough in to consider that perhaps he is telling us the truth and trying to adjust his approach at the plate.

jojo
06-16-2009, 04:44 PM
You could go through almost any player and parse their numbers by month and see inconsistency, even within peripherals. On the whole, however, he's been better than his career mostly across the board. And actually, his walk rate so far halfway through June is better than it was in May, so it has not steadily dropped by Month. Nevermind the fact he's 27 years old (turning 28 later this month) - the age when many, many players have breakthrough seasons or begin to show much more discipline at the plate.

I think it's important to give the maturation process a chance. Players' discipline and approach do change over time in many cases (clearly not all). Skill levels can and do change. If they didn't, what would be the point of practice? We are a little over a third of the way through the season. And thus far, as a whole, his walks are up, strikeouts are down, he's seeing more pitches, getting on base more often, hitting for more isolated power all the while his swing percentage is at a career low. That's an awful lot to just quickly dismiss as randomness for a 27-year old, when we're in the middle of June. At very least, it's far enough in to consider that perhaps he is telling us the truth and trying to adjust his approach at the plate.

That's a wonderful narrative that I wish in my heart of hearts was occurring. Unfortunately sample size issues and regression to the mean have ruined too many wonderful stories in the past for me to find the one above to be compelling.

Just for clarity I have said that his BB/k ratio has dropped steadily by month and in the 180+ PAs occurring since mid April, his walk rate has regressed back toward numbers career norms (7.2% versus the 18% exhibited over his first 50 PAs)

Brutus
06-16-2009, 04:54 PM
That's a wonderful narrative that I wish in my heart of hearts was occurring. Unfortunately sample size issues and regression to the mean have ruined too many wonderful stories in the past for me to find the one above to be compelling.

Just for clarity I have said that his BB/k ratio has dropped steadily by month and in the 180+ PAs occurring since mid April, his walk rate has regressed back toward numbers career norms (7.2% versus the 18% exhibited over his first 50 PAs)

But his walk rate for June is back close to 9%. So we can slice that tomato any way we want to tell a story. Bottom line is that we have to look at the season as a whole. If, at the end of the season, his numbers are back to his career normal rates, then fine, your point will be well taken. But in the meantime, I'm not seeing a hard decline back to those thresholds; rather, I'm seeing fluctuation (indications that his numbers are steadying) and the levels are staying well above where he's been in the past.

In any event, nothing is concrete. Yes he might go on to achieve his normal rates. Yes, he might not. Until then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and judge based on what he's done to this point - not what he may or may not do. To this point, he's improved in most facets of his offensive game. That's got to be worth something until it's shown otherwise.

jojo
06-16-2009, 04:57 PM
But his walk rate for June is back close to 9%. So we can slice that tomato any way we want to tell a story. Bottom line is that we have to look at the season as a whole. If, at the end of the season, his numbers are back to his career normal rates, then fine, your point will be well taken. But in the meantime, I'm not seeing a hard decline back to those thresholds; rather, I'm seeing fluctuation (indications that his numbers are steadying) and the levels are staying well above where he's been in the past.

In any event, nothing is concrete. Yes he might go on to achieve his normal rates. Yes, he might not. Until then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and judge based on what he's done to this point - not what he may or may not do. To this point, he's improved in most facets of his offensive game. That's got to be worth something until it's shown otherwise.

To this point, he's a had a hot streak in May. But we'll see. I hope you're right.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2009, 07:22 PM
Post of the year.:beerme:

While Krono might be the overall leader of number of points, you have to be without a shadow of a doubt the leader of beerme posts.

westofyou
06-16-2009, 08:00 PM
woy was talking about the playing harder angle.

Those stats do indicate an improved plate approach, but that's not really what he was talking about.

Yep, I was referring to the "trying harder magic dust" I must be missing in my daily Brandon Phillips aura check.

I'll try to look harder to see if Brandon's playing harder.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-16-2009, 08:07 PM
Yep, I was referring to the "trying harder magic dust" I must be missing in my daily Brandon Phillips aura check.

I'll try to look harder to see if Brandon's playing harder.

I need some "looking harder to see if he's trying harder magic dust" myself.

Deepred05
06-16-2009, 08:39 PM
My impression after listening to the interview, was that he was aggravated with the question itself. I thought at the time that he had probably told them beforehand not to ask about Votto, but they went ahead and did it anyway.

RANDY IN INDY
06-16-2009, 09:15 PM
While Krono might be the overall leader of number of points, you have to be without a shadow of a doubt the leader of beerme posts.

Why thank you! Glad you liked it!:beerme:

Patrick Bateman
06-16-2009, 09:18 PM
But his walk rate for June is back close to 9%. So we can slice that tomato any way we want to tell a story. Bottom line is that we have to look at the season as a whole. If, at the end of the season, his numbers are back to his career normal rates, then fine, your point will be well taken. But in the meantime, I'm not seeing a hard decline back to those thresholds; rather, I'm seeing fluctuation (indications that his numbers are steadying) and the levels are staying well above where he's been in the past.


I think an important point to consider is that the Reds as a whole saw a lot of walks, an unusual amount during the first part of the year. Taveras was walking lots, EE tons, etc.

Phillips' walk rate may have just been as much a function of facing an unusual amount of pitchers struggling with command in the first stretch of games than any skill atrributed to him. But that point isn't set in stone by any means.

11larkin11
06-17-2009, 12:59 AM
My guess? Votto will be back June 23rd. Its coming off an off day, and the Reds start a series in Toronto, his hometown. He may be back sooner, but he'll be back by then.

Hoosier Red
06-17-2009, 08:54 AM
I'd start him off on the road, and I'm not sure I'd put it in his hometown. Low key.