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View Full Version : We need to trade Cordero



LouisvilleCARDS
06-15-2009, 07:53 PM
I think this much is apparent from the position we're in. If we can find a buyer who is in contention and has bullpen problems and the wallet to take him, we should do it.

This isn't a knock on his performance, he's been great in strictly save situations. But the bottom line is we're paying $12 mil a year for a guy pitching one inning when you're up 1-3 runs. Seriously? If we got rid of him, couldn't Arthur Rhodes or David Weathers do the same thing to a similar degree?

A high priced free agent closer is like the ultimate luxury. That's not a problem if you're the Yanks, Red Sox, Mets or other teams with big wallets. When you're a small market team like the Reds and you're spending $12 million on a closer when you have gaping holes in a horrible offense, its suicide. It's like "pimping out" a beat up 80's Al Bundy Dodge with spinners, GPS, and a kickass sound system. The car needs to be push started yet you go out and sink money into frivulous unecessary things.

If we can deal Cordero to a contending team and get something solid in return (which shouldn't be too hard since he's an All Star closer), we could improve this horrible offense, or maybe get a promising prospect or too, and free up a ton of payroll. We could even use that freed up payroll THIS year to take a salary dump bat from a fire sale team to help us down the stretch.

Make the move Walt, we've got to get a bat.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2009, 07:55 PM
:rolleyes: You come up with a new trade idea every day.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Where's the last thread I made on a trade? Are you disputing any of this? Please, leave your useless uncontributing comments out of the thread.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2009, 08:06 PM
Now, I don't really see why trading Cordero would be a good idea, at the moment I will ask you only one question. Who is our closer next year??

ochoa30
06-15-2009, 08:20 PM
It is a good idea if we fall out of it and we can get someone of value in return. Otherwise, no thanks. Its nice to finally have a legit closer.

Griffey012
06-15-2009, 08:53 PM
You are forgetting how much he strengthens our bullpen by keeping guys like Rhodes, Weathers and Masset into the set up and middle relief roles. Weathers was our closer a few years ago and our pen was pretty bad even though he performed admirably.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-15-2009, 09:01 PM
You're missing the point. I'm not saying he's NOT good to have, I'm saying for $12 mil, we need a hitter. Let me ask, how much has he helped us during this 4 game losing streak? Not at ALL. Closers don't make much of a difference when you can't even get in the lead in the first place.

Really, is it worth $12 mil of our payroll for a guy pitching 1 inning up 1 to 3 runs?

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2009, 09:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Cordero has a FULL No Trade Clause 2008-2009 then a limited no trade clause thereafter.

mroby85
06-15-2009, 09:12 PM
How soon we forget the Danny Graves era of leading games for 8 innings and losing.

defender
06-15-2009, 09:43 PM
It seems like the Reds are walking a tightrope right now. The last thing they need is to start blowing saves. Well, actually they have blown their last 2 save opps, and it is no fun.

Zimmers
06-15-2009, 09:50 PM
I for one understand your theory but say we moved massett to the closer who do we plug ln there? Imo its good we have those 4 money guys to hold leads. If we trade that for a bat are we going to give up more runs? Its a damned if we do and damned if we dont scenario possibly.

lidspinner
06-15-2009, 09:51 PM
sorry guys but put me in the group that is not a fan of paying big dollars to a closer....I think you can get good pitching form alot of spots for alot less....I might start my morning off tomorrow with a stats comparison of say Coco compared to the leagues lowest paid closer......I think we will all be surprised that even the worst closers dont lose that many games compared to what coco will lose or has lost in the past....I might be wrong.....I have even wondered if a Masset wouldnt be goo in that role???

Let me also add that I am a big time hater of the closer roll.....I think yoou should have a staff, and let the hot guy roll.....if the meat of the lineup is up in the 8th inning, then you bring your #1 releif pitcher in there....I hate the notion that everyone brings in the closer in the 9th when he has to pitch to the 7,8,9 hitters. I like the "bullpen by who's hot" method....keeps everyone competeting.

TheBigLebowski
06-15-2009, 10:05 PM
I like having Cordero but I'd be all for trading him for a similarly-priced, similarly-skilled bat.

Griffey012
06-15-2009, 10:43 PM
sorry guys but put me in the group that is not a fan of paying big dollars to a closer....I think you can get good pitching form alot of spots for alot less....I might start my morning off tomorrow with a stats comparison of say Coco compared to the leagues lowest paid closer......I think we will all be surprised that even the worst closers dont lose that many games compared to what coco will lose or has lost in the past....I might be wrong.....I have even wondered if a Masset wouldnt be goo in that role???

Let me also add that I am a big time hater of the closer roll.....I think yoou should have a staff, and let the hot guy roll.....if the meat of the lineup is up in the 8th inning, then you bring your #1 relief pitcher in there....I hate the notion that everyone brings in the closer in the 9th when he has to pitch to the 7,8,9 hitters. I like the "bullpen by who's hot" method....keeps everyone competeting.

Getting the last 3 outs of a game is a lot different than getting 3 outs in the 7th and 8th, it seems like the same but in reality the pressure of getting the last 3 outs combined with the added focus of the hitters makes it a lot more difficult. Many team have tried the closer by committee only to have it fail. The problem is not in comparing Cordero to a league average or below average closer, it is that if we dump Cordero we are promoting from within our pen, therefore we weaken ourselves at closer and at another spot and overall really weaken the bullpen which has been a strength.

I think it is in our best interest to add a big bat by trading some prospects, but not for a 1 and done type player. We have a lot of near ML ready bats in the minors that will help us next year. A better option would also be dumping Arroyo's money and bringing in a bat with that.

Ghosts of 1990
06-15-2009, 10:56 PM
To the original poster: He wouldn't yield anything significant due to his age and his contract number. We're getting what we paid for with Cordero; no reason to trade him now.

HUHUH
06-16-2009, 12:19 AM
sorry guys but put me in the group that is not a fan of paying big dollars to a closer....I think you can get good pitching form alot of spots for alot less....I might start my morning off tomorrow with a stats comparison of say Coco compared to the leagues lowest paid closer......I think we will all be surprised that even the worst closers dont lose that many games compared to what coco will lose or has lost in the past....I might be wrong.....I have even wondered if a Masset wouldnt be goo in that role???

Let me also add that I am a big time hater of the closer roll.....I think yoou should have a staff, and let the hot guy roll.....if the meat of the lineup is up in the 8th inning, then you bring your #1 releif pitcher in there....I hate the notion that everyone brings in the closer in the 9th when he has to pitch to the 7,8,9 hitters. I like the "bullpen by who's hot" method....keeps everyone competeting.


AMEN, AMEN, AMEN: Remember the 99 Reds and McKeown? He did it the right way with Graves, Sullivan, Williamson, etc. Let the dude who's pitching well PITCH, and forget the closer nonsense.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-16-2009, 01:30 AM
I heard Billy Wagner once sent a nice card to the guy who invented the save statistic. He single handedly turned a relief pitcher into a high contract player worth millions.

Also I think I saw an article somewhere here posted a long time back about someone breaking down the closer position and how stupid it actually is statistically to save your best relief pitcher for the 9th inning and pitch other players in 7th or 8th innings of tied or 1 run games since they would be more useful and yield more wins used in that situation.

In other words, the closer position is one of the biggest fallacies in baseball.

lidspinner
06-16-2009, 01:41 AM
I heard Billy Wagner once sent a nice card to the guy who invented the save statistic. He single handedly turned a relief pitcher into a high contract player worth millions.

Also I think I saw an article somewhere here posted a long time back about someone breaking down the closer position and how stupid it actually is statistically to save your best relief pitcher for the 9th inning and pitch other players in 7th or 8th innings of tied or 1 run games since they would be more useful and yield more wins used in that situation.

In other words, the closer position is one of the biggest fallacies in baseball.


I have been fighting this fight for years....the closer role is just another union term to get more money for more players. You need a good closer with that bulldog type mentality but you dont have to set it in stone that he is the guy that comes in the 9th.
I talked at length with a guy on another board about pitchers comming in and taking on a role of pitchign twice a week but for extended periods each time. Like bring him on in the 5th or 6th and let him finish the game...if you had 2 or 3 guys that could do that and have 2 other guys that are floaters, I think a manager could make it work while keeping arms still fresh. you are always gong to have hiccups but I thought it would be a good idea for someone like Homer, or maybe a young pitcher that just isnt quite ready for that starter role yet. Bring hiim in and if he is hot, keep him in, if he is not hot, throw in a floater.
It goes against the grain but I think Mckeon would go for it..LOL

travisgrimes
06-16-2009, 02:22 AM
i think if we were to trade cordero i think the NYY, LAD, and LAA would be the most interested... but if we trade him we have to trade at least Harang or Arroyo or else your keeping guys who are valuable for really no reason: i could see a trades like this:

Cincinnati Reds trade CL Francsico Cordero to the New York Yankees for C Jesus Montero, CF Melky Cabrera and a PTBNL

WHY? Mariano Rivera is starting to look old and fast. The Yankees will probably go after a closer before the deadline to share saves with Rivera this season and take over next.

Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Philadelphia Phillies for OF Michael Taylor and RHP Carlos Carrasco and LHP J.A. Happ (possibly also a PTBNL/CASH)

WHY? The Phillies really need another starting pitcher and with Harang they get a #2 starter who can eat innings and with Peavy out Harang becomes the best pitcher on the market.

Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo, SS Alex Gonzalez and LF Laynce Nix to the New York Mets for SS Rueben Tejada, RHP Brad Holt, 3B Jefry Marte and 2 PTBNL

WHY? The Mets are in desperate need of three things: a #3-#4 starting pitcher, a veteran SS while Reyes is out and outfield depth. They get those things in this trade and really dont give up anymore than 1 high-level prospects, 2 mid-level prospects and 2 PTBNL. Some may say that's too much for the Reds to give up but really your getting three prospects for Arroyo and getting rid of A-Gon's contract along with Arroyo's for 2 PTBNL with Nix as a throw in.

These trades allow us room in the offseason to deal Alonso in a deal for a good young SS like this:

Cincinnati Reds trade 1B Yonder Alonso and 3B Edwin Encarnacion to the Atlanta Braves for SS Yunel Escobar

WHY? Yunel has proven he can play a good shortstop and he can hit quite well. IMO he is in the top 5-7 SS in the league. Plus the Braves are looking for a replacement for Chipper and a young hitting 1B.

2010 Lineup:
1. CF Melky Cabrera
2. SS Yunel Escobar
3. 1B Joey Votto
4. 2B Brandon Phillips
5. RF Jay Bruce
6. LF Michael Taylor
7. 3B Juan Francisco
8. C Jesus Montero
9. P

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Matt Maloney
5. Carlos Carrasco

Yes a very young team, but also very talented. You will not see them win the division or anything like that but in a year or two look out!

Ghosts of 1990
06-16-2009, 03:07 AM
i think if we were to trade cordero i think the NYY, LAD, and LAA would be the most interested... but if we trade him we have to trade at least Harang or Arroyo or else your keeping guys who are valuable for really no reason: i could see a trades like this:

Cincinnati Reds trade CL Francsico Cordero to the New York Yankees for C Jesus Montero, CF Melky Cabrera and a PTBNL

WHY? Mariano Rivera is starting to look old and fast. The Yankees will probably go after a closer before the deadline to share saves with Rivera this season and take over next.

Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Philadelphia Phillies for OF Michael Taylor and RHP Carlos Carrasco and LHP J.A. Happ (possibly also a PTBNL/CASH)

WHY? The Phillies really need another starting pitcher and with Harang they get a #2 starter who can eat innings and with Peavy out Harang becomes the best pitcher on the market.

Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo, SS Alex Gonzalez and LF Laynce Nix to the New York Mets for SS Rueben Tejada, RHP Brad Holt, 3B Jefry Marte and 2 PTBNL

WHY? The Mets are in desperate need of three things: a #3-#4 starting pitcher, a veteran SS while Reyes is out and outfield depth. They get those things in this trade and really dont give up anymore than 1 high-level prospects, 2 mid-level prospects and 2 PTBNL. Some may say that's too much for the Reds to give up but really your getting three prospects for Arroyo and getting rid of A-Gon's contract along with Arroyo's for 2 PTBNL with Nix as a throw in.

These trades allow us room in the offseason to deal Alonso in a deal for a good young SS like this:

Cincinnati Reds trade 1B Yonder Alonso and 3B Edwin Encarnacion to the Atlanta Braves for SS Yunel Escobar

WHY? Yunel has proven he can play a good shortstop and he can hit quite well. IMO he is in the top 5-7 SS in the league. Plus the Braves are looking for a replacement for Chipper and a young hitting 1B.

2010 Lineup:
1. CF Melky Cabrera
2. SS Yunel Escobar
3. 1B Joey Votto
4. 2B Brandon Phillips
5. RF Jay Bruce
6. LF Michael Taylor
7. 3B Juan Francisco
8. C Jesus Montero
9. P

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Matt Maloney
5. Carlos Carrasco

Yes a very young team, but also very talented. You will not see them win the division or anything like that but in a year or two look out!

I appreciate your efforts but you are dreaming

travisgrimes
06-16-2009, 03:33 AM
hey one can dream lol i know most of the trades aren't truely possible but trying doesnt hurt

freestyle55
06-16-2009, 09:31 AM
I hardly think the Dodgers need a closer since they have one of the best this year...Jon Broxton, who throws in the upper 90's and has at least 50 K's already this year...

bounty37h
06-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I think this much is apparent from the position we're in. If we can find a buyer who is in contention and has bullpen problems and the wallet to take him, we should do it.

This isn't a knock on his performance, he's been great in strictly save situations. But the bottom line is we're paying $12 mil a year for a guy pitching one inning when you're up 1-3 runs. Seriously? If we got rid of him, couldn't Arthur Rhodes or David Weathers do the same thing to a similar degree?

A high priced free agent closer is like the ultimate luxury. That's not a problem if you're the Yanks, Red Sox, Mets or other teams with big wallets. When you're a small market team like the Reds and you're spending $12 million on a closer when you have gaping holes in a horrible offense, its suicide. It's like "pimping out" a beat up 80's Al Bundy Dodge with spinners, GPS, and a kickass sound system. The car needs to be push started yet you go out and sink money into frivulous unecessary things.

If we can deal Cordero to a contending team and get something solid in return (which shouldn't be too hard since he's an All Star closer), we could improve this horrible offense, or maybe get a promising prospect or too, and free up a ton of payroll. We could even use that freed up payroll THIS year to take a salary dump bat from a fire sale team to help us down the stretch.

Make the move Walt, we've got to get a bat.

I dont know, tough call, yeah, we need offense, but remember a few seasons ago when we had that, but no bullpen, and got blown out because of that? There has to be balance between offense and defense, but I have always thought a legit closer was worth the money.

CySeymour
06-16-2009, 10:43 AM
I think from a PR stand point, trading Cordero would be a disaster. Really, BCast just needs to pony up the cash for a quality hitter. If nothing else, having Votto miss this time puts a spotlight on the fact this team needs more hitters.

BluegrassRedleg
06-16-2009, 05:37 PM
The OP makes a solid point about it being futile if you have a bunch of limp-wristed gimps in your everyday lineup.

In the big scheme of things, $12M is too much for the Reds to be paying a closer right now. In their situation, you can find someone to do a solid job for much less. New closers emerge every year. It's a dime-a-dozen spot.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-16-2009, 05:55 PM
I dont know, tough call, yeah, we need offense, but remember a few seasons ago when we had that, but no bullpen, and got blown out because of that? There has to be balance between offense and defense, but I have always thought a legit closer was worth the money.

He's one player though. He doesn't pitch every day. He only pitches when we're up 1-3 runs. On the usefulness scale for us, he's way down the line, but on the payroll he's getting a huge chunk of it. Once again, how much has he helped us during this 4 game losing streak? How much would a $12 mil bat have helped us?

While anyone can say "Remember when the bullpen was bad" - just another great example of the Reds poor logic in the front office and overreacting and overpaying someone to to "fill" that need. Our defense sucks! Lets give Alex Gonzalez a nice 3 year deal! No, no, now we want to become a gritty speed team. Lets sign Taveras to a 2 year deal!

You see how those are working out? Remember when we had Todd Jones as closer, and he did perfectly fine? Arthur Rhodes could do the same exact thing. He's been even more shut down than Cordero. Bottom line is, we're burning $12 million on a LUXURY not a necessity.

RedLakerFan24
06-16-2009, 05:58 PM
We just need to Pick up a bat, we are only 3 games out, Relax guys

nemesis
06-16-2009, 07:24 PM
hey one can dream lol i know most of the trades aren't truely possible but trying doesnt hurt

I actually like the EE and Yonder for Escobar trade Idea. It has merit and would probaly be about the right package to get him. Opens the door for Frazier to take over 3rd, Stubbs to take over center and Heisley to take over 2010 and be a solid solid team by 2011.

LF Heisley
CF Stubbs
1B Votto
2B Phillips
RF Bruce
SS Escobar
3B Frazier
C Hanigan

That team would probaly rake in comparison to the lineup thats out there tonight.

Sigh.

bgwilly31
06-16-2009, 08:10 PM
If the reds were a contender. (which their not) I would say keep him. If the reds were going to be contending next year i would say keep em.

Fact is the reds are once again years off from every being a playoff team.

So no we dont need to be wasting that much money on a closer right now.

gilpdawg
06-17-2009, 05:53 AM
How soon we forget the Danny Graves era of leading games for 8 innings and losing.
Hey, NOBODY scores on Danny Graves.:D

You have to have been here awhile to get that reference.

kfm
06-17-2009, 08:28 AM
If the reds were a contender. (which their not) I would say keep him. If the reds were going to be contending next year i would say keep em.

Fact is the reds are once again years off from every being a playoff team.

So no we dont need to be wasting that much money on a closer right now.

How can a team that is 3 games out with their best player missing the last month and their homerun leader missing almost the entire year not be a contender. Closers are like lawyers, everyone thinks they are overrated and overpriced until you have a bad one.

aceace
06-17-2009, 01:41 PM
There's no reason to make any moves until the deadline. That's what the deadline is for, deciding if you can make a playoff spot. I would like to see our players back and healthy before a true evaluation. Coco is likely not going anywhere as he has a big buyout clause.

Newman4
06-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo

How about we do this instead of trading Cordero? You save about the same amount of money and Arroyo doesn't pitch as well as Cordero.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-18-2009, 02:21 PM
If the reds were a contender. (which their not) I would say keep him. If the reds were going to be contending next year i would say keep em.

Fact is the reds are once again years off from every being a playoff team.

So no we dont need to be wasting that much money on a closer right now.

I don't understand how you can already evaluate this 2009 Reds team when we haven't even had a solid month with everyone healthy. Wait for EDE, Votto, and Volquez to come back. Brewers and Cardinals aren't that great. We have a chance to make a serious run in the Central, won't be good enough for a wild card spot but there's a chance we can win the division as long as Votto and Eddie come back strong and everyone else stays healthy.