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View Full Version : The rookies are doing better than their "veteran" counterparts



LouisvilleCARDS
06-18-2009, 05:18 PM
Anyone notice this? Granted, the sample size isn't as big for everyone. I dunno of Janish is considered a rookie or not, so I use the term loosely, but look at this stuff, AVG and OBP:

SS
Janish SS .277 .346
A Gonzalez SS .214 .256

C
R Hanigan C .316 .406
R Hernandez .240 .319


CF
W Taveras CF .219 .270
C Dickerson .246 .368


I'm guessing when Votto gets back, Hanigan will be kicked to backup. What is going on here?

Captain Hook
06-18-2009, 05:23 PM
Anyone notice this? Granted, the sample size isn't as big for everyone. I dunno of Janish is considered a rookie or not, so I use the term loosely, but look at this stuff, AVG and OBP:

SS
Janish SS .277 .346
A Gonzalez SS .214 .256

C
R Hanigan C .316 .406
R Hernandez .240 .319


CF
W Taveras CF .219 .270
C Dickerson .246 .368


I'm guessing when Votto gets back, Hanigan will be kicked to backup. What is going on here?

So funny!My post in the Taveras thread pretty much says the same thing.

Captain Hook
06-18-2009, 05:29 PM
Maybe so but Walt has put together a decent team imo. Until it comes out that he is forcing Dusty to put our 2 worse hitters excluding some of our pitchers in the 1 and 2 hole I have to blame Dusty.What could he possibly be hoping to accomplish?As bad as Taveras is he could be very useful coming off the bench to pinch run or lay down a bunt.Spot starts here and there would be the most I'd want to see him get.As far as Gonzo goes I'd be ok with him if we could prove that Janish is no better.He would have to actually play for that to happen though.I thought that Dusty prided himself on playing everyone to keep them sharp?If we had a premier SS I could understand Janish's disapearence but we don't.Actually Gonzo struggles pretty bad at the plate(in case Dusty didn't notice).

As far as what Dusty should do.Just about anything would be better but Dickerson leading off with Hanigang batting second would be ideal imo.When Votto and EE gets back I would really consider Phillips leading off as long as he can keep his obp around .350 and have Dickerson follow.

One more thing I'd like to complain about with Dusty even before he does it.When Votto is back Hanigan is sure to disappear again for weeks at a time.He should at least split time with Hernandez but I can't see Dusty ever letting that happen.

I have been very patient with Dusty but as of today I'm not a big fan.I'm sure most of you would ask "what took so long".

This post probably fits in better here anyways.

Roush's socks
06-18-2009, 08:14 PM
Sometimes it does seem like Dusty or someone is almost making a point of flying in the face of new generation SABRmeterics people. It's kind of like this "know nothing" jock attitude, like they know better than all the eggheads that keep saying you need high OBP people at the top of the order.

CWRed
06-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Anyone notice this? Granted, the sample size isn't as big for everyone. I dunno of Janish is considered a rookie or not, so I use the term loosely, but look at this stuff, AVG and OBP:

SS
Janish SS .277 .346
A Gonzalez SS .214 .256

C
R Hanigan C .316 .406
R Hernandez .240 .319


CF
W Taveras CF .219 .270
C Dickerson .246 .368


I'm guessing when Votto gets back, Hanigan will be kicked to backup. What is going on here?

What is going on here? You have to ask? Dusty freakin' Baker, that's what. I see that Hanigan is batting 8th tonight again. What a moron. Dumbest manager in the bigs...and that's saying a lot. He's a homer for the "established" guys, whether they suck or not.

It's not rocket science...give your best hitters the most at bats each game...

Dickerson
Hanigan
Nix/Gomes
Phillips
Bruce
Hernandez
Hairston/Rosales
Janish

Hell, I would even put Janish in the 2-hole rather than who Dusty puts there. If I see A-Gon in the 2nd spot one more time I'm puking blood for days. And let WT the designated pinch runner/bunter.

flash
06-19-2009, 10:38 PM
One more thing I'd like to complain about with Dusty even before he does it.When Votto is back Hanigan is sure to disappear again for weeks at a time.He should at least split time with Hernandez but I can't see Dusty ever letting that happen.

I think the schedule and Charlie Manual of the Phillies could have a say in that.

Votto is not scheduled to return until the the Reds come back from their next road trip. That would be June 30th, two weeks before the All-Star Game. Hanigan has the second highest batting average among catchers behind McCann of Atlanta. His fielding is among the best in the league and he is the best in the NL at caught stealing. If Hanigan can keep up the pace and maybe even catch McCann will manuel put him on the team? it would be hard for Baker to bench an all-star.

Captain Hook
06-20-2009, 05:02 AM
One more thing I'd like to complain about with Dusty even before he does it.When Votto is back Hanigan is sure to disappear again for weeks at a time.He should at least split time with Hernandez but I can't see Dusty ever letting that happen.

I think the schedule and Charlie Manual of the Phillies could have a say in that.

Votto is not scheduled to return until the the Reds come back from their next road trip. That would be June 30th, two weeks before the All-Star Game. Hanigan has the second highest batting average among catchers behind McCann of Atlanta. His fielding is among the best in the league and he is the best in the NL at caught stealing. If Hanigan can keep up the pace and maybe even catch McCann will manuel put him on the team? it would be hard for Baker to bench an all-star.

I have to start a thread about this.I sure hope your right.Hanigan has proven a lot.

kfm
06-20-2009, 05:14 PM
As far as what Dusty should do.Just about anything would be better but Dickerson leading off with Hanigang batting second would be ideal imo.When Votto and EE gets back I would really consider Phillips leading off as long as he can keep his obp around .350 and have Dickerson follow.


This post probably fits in better here anyways.

Why on earth would you put the guy who leads your team in RBI and is second in Homeruns batting leadoff? And this thread is about Dusty and his ridiculous lineups. When Votto and Encarnacion get back Hanigan will go back to the bench and I don't have a problem with it at all. Hernandez has come up with so many big hits, his defense has been much better than advertised. I like Hanigan and he is a good player, but Hernandez is a proven veteran who has produced for this club. I am not crazy about Tavares, but Dusty allows guys to play themselves into the lineup (like Laynce Nix) and out of the lineup like Chris DIckerson. It may not mean anything to fans but it is important in the locker room that when guys get either the Hook or a chance they have no one to blame but themselves. I like that about Dusty, remember all the people who said that Phillips could not hit fourth and that jay bruce should hit fourth. I guess no one wants to give credit to Dusty for that one. Dusty is a winner and he has proven it on every team he has ever been on. He will prove it here too, but I know it will not matter to many on this board, but in the grand scheme of things who really cares what people on this board including myself think, the only stat that matters is wins and losses.

Captain Hook
06-20-2009, 07:03 PM
Why on earth would you put the guy who leads your team in RBI and is second in Homeruns batting leadoff? And this thread is about Dusty and his ridiculous lineups. When Votto and Encarnacion get back Hanigan will go back to the bench and I don't have a problem with it at all. Hernandez has come up with so many big hits, his defense has been much better than advertised. I like Hanigan and he is a good player, but Hernandez is a proven veteran who has produced for this club. I am not crazy about Tavares, but Dusty allows guys to play themselves into the lineup (like Laynce Nix) and out of the lineup like Chris DIckerson. It may not mean anything to fans but it is important in the locker room that when guys get either the Hook or a chance they have no one to blame but themselves. I like that about Dusty, remember all the people who said that Phillips could not hit fourth and that jay bruce should hit fourth. I guess no one wants to give credit to Dusty for that one. Dusty is a winner and he has proven it on every team he has ever been on. He will prove it here too, but I know it will not matter to many on this board, but in the grand scheme of things who really cares what people on this board including myself think, the only stat that matters is wins and losses.

More then I hope I'm right about anything I think or write about the Reds I hope your right about Dusty even more.At this point though if your trying to give Baker credit for how the offense has preformed I'll have to agree 100%.I wouldn't use that as argument for how good of a coach he is though.

kfm
06-20-2009, 11:40 PM
More then I hope I'm right about anything I think or write about the Reds I hope your right about Dusty even more.At this point though if your trying to give Baker credit for how the offense has preformed I'll have to agree 100%.I wouldn't use that as argument for how good of a coach he is though.

I hope I am right also. Nothing I said indicated that Dusty should be given the credit for how the offense has performed nor can any reasonable interpretation of what I said be read that way. I'm simply stating one example that people were all over Dusty for and now all is quiet on that front yet I don't hear the Dusty bashers saying how they were wrong about Phillips batting fourth. He has been forced to juggle guys and lineups like crazy because of all the injuries and slumps that almost every regular player except Votto has gone through. Yet here they sit within striking distance of 1st place. And once again, Dusty gets no credit. Trying to follow along the logic of the average Dusty basher, I would have to assume you believe they would have to be in first place if any other major league manager were managing the Reds. At some point the Dusty haters are going to have to start actually blaming players for their performance instead of the convenient excuse of Dusty. I would like you to explain how Dusty is responsible for the individual performance of each offensive player since you indicated he is responsible for the offensive performance. Keep in mind, if you are blaming him 100%, which I believe were you words, that includes the good and the bad.

Captain Hook
06-21-2009, 10:21 PM
Certainly I don't blame Dusty 100%.I actually do not believe that the manager even makes that much of a difference.That doesn't mean they should get a free pass.I just think that when you bat Taveras and Gonzo 1 and 2 your doing something that no manager in baseball would do.I admit that if the Reds can get in the playoffs or even finish a few games over .500 I'll lay off Dusty.That's only natural.Dusty has been forced to be creative with all the injuries, certainly.I believe that he is far below average when it comes to doing that.His commitment to the vets might make for a happier club house but its imo its a problem and we all know how that turned out last year.Running Griffey out there in the 3 hole is almost as bad as Taveras and Gonzo 1 and 2.

I really don't like bashing Dusty because I love the Reds and he is the coach.I don't really want to continue because I have stated how I feel.I respect your defense of Baker and his actions but I don't agree.Feel free to comment but I've said all I have to say.For now.;)

flash
06-22-2009, 08:54 AM
When Votto and Encarnacion get back Hanigan will go back to the bench and I don't have a problem with it at all. Hernandez has come up with so many big hits, his defense has been much better than advertised. I like Hanigan and he is a good player, but Hernandez is a proven veteran who has produced for this club.

I like Hernandez and do agree he is a proven veteran, but I do have a problem with putting the top hitting catcher with the best arm in the National League on the bench. Hanigan is making a serious run for an All-Star berth and ROY honors. he is the only position player on the club worthy or even being considered for the All Star team whether he is on the ballot or not. I think Dusty could surprise some people when Votto comes back with keeping Hanigan behind the dish. I also believe Charlie manuel could surprise some when he places Ryan on the All-Star team.

Dickerson, I believe will eventually win the job in center. Dusty is giving Taveras every chance, but he will eventually go with Dickerson because his defense is better and so will be his batting average. Dickerson started slow at Louisville last year before literally tearing up the IL.

Ihope the Bailey/ Wood talk is real because the reds will need a SS next year. I would not resign Gonzalez. I know his defense is second to none, but his batting is suspect and he hasn't played a full year in the last four.

Lastly i can even see a starting OF of Nix, Dick, and Gomes before the year is out if Bruce can't get his act together.

I don't

CWRed
06-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Why on earth would you put the guy who leads your team in RBI and is second in Homeruns batting leadoff? And this thread is about Dusty and his ridiculous lineups. When Votto and Encarnacion get back Hanigan will go back to the bench and I don't have a problem with it at all. Hernandez has come up with so many big hits, his defense has been much better than advertised. I like Hanigan and he is a good player, but Hernandez is a proven veteran who has produced for this club. I am not crazy about Tavares, but Dusty allows guys to play themselves into the lineup (like Laynce Nix) and out of the lineup like Chris DIckerson. It may not mean anything to fans but it is important in the locker room that when guys get either the Hook or a chance they have no one to blame but themselves. I like that about Dusty, remember all the people who said that Phillips could not hit fourth and that jay bruce should hit fourth. I guess no one wants to give credit to Dusty for that one. Dusty is a winner and he has proven it on every team he has ever been on. He will prove it here too, but I know it will not matter to many on this board, but in the grand scheme of things who really cares what people on this board including myself think, the only stat that matters is wins and losses.

I don't even know what to say to this. I think I'll vomit instead. I guess Taveras has "played" himself in to the lineup? And Dickerson has "played himself out" of the lineup?" Whaaaaaaaa? :thumbdown

Kingspoint
06-23-2009, 08:58 PM
Maybe so but Walt has put together a decent team imo. Until it comes out that he is forcing Dusty to put our 2 worse hitters excluding some of our pitchers in the 1 and 2 hole I have to blame Dusty.What could he possibly be hoping to accomplish?As bad as Taveras is he could be very useful coming off the bench to pinch run or lay down a bunt.Spot starts here and there would be the most I'd want to see him get.As far as Gonzo goes I'd be ok with him if we could prove that Janish is no better.He would have to actually play for that to happen though.I thought that Dusty prided himself on playing everyone to keep them sharp?If we had a premier SS I could understand Janish's disapearence but we don't.Actually Gonzo struggles pretty bad at the plate(in case Dusty didn't notice).

As far as what Dusty should do.Just about anything would be better but Dickerson leading off with Hanigang batting second would be ideal imo.When Votto and EE gets back I would really consider Phillips leading off as long as he can keep his obp around .350 and have Dickerson follow.

One more thing I'd like to complain about with Dusty even before he does it.When Votto is back Hanigan is sure to disappear again for weeks at a time.He should at least split time with Hernandez but I can't see Dusty ever letting that happen.

I have been very patient with Dusty but as of today I'm not a big fan.I'm sure most of you would ask "what took so long".

This post probably fits in better here anyways.

I think The Crusty Baker has lost all of his remaining supporters after his anal-retentive stubbornness to continue playing these veterans who have proved they can't hit over these "rookies" who are proving they can hit.

Kingspoint
06-23-2009, 09:01 PM
Why on earth would you put the guy who leads your team in RBI and is second in Homeruns batting leadoff? And this thread is about Dusty and his ridiculous lineups. When Votto and Encarnacion get back Hanigan will go back to the bench and I don't have a problem with it at all. Hernandez has come up with so many big hits, his defense has been much better than advertised. I like Hanigan and he is a good player, but Hernandez is a proven veteran who has produced for this club. I am not crazy about Tavares, but Dusty allows guys to play themselves into the lineup (like Laynce Nix) and out of the lineup like Chris DIckerson. It may not mean anything to fans but it is important in the locker room that when guys get either the Hook or a chance they have no one to blame but themselves. I like that about Dusty, remember all the people who said that Phillips could not hit fourth and that jay bruce should hit fourth. I guess no one wants to give credit to Dusty for that one. Dusty is a winner and he has proven it on every team he has ever been on. He will prove it here too, but I know it will not matter to many on this board, but in the grand scheme of things who really cares what people on this board including myself think, the only stat that matters is wins and losses.

Dusty's lineups and playing of Taveras is giving this team losses and proving that he's incapable of managing this ballclub for the second season in a row.

kfm
06-23-2009, 10:41 PM
I don't even know what to say to this. I think I'll vomit instead. I guess Taveras has "played" himself in to the lineup? And Dickerson has "played himself out" of the lineup?" Whaaaaaaaa? :thumbdown

Why don't you reread what I actually wrote, and perhaps you will understand better. It is actually the exact opposite of what you are somehow misinterpreting. If you are familiar with the Reds you would understand that at the beginning of the season dickerson played himself out of the lineup and Nix played himself into it. Tavares is in the process of playing himself out of the lineup and it is only a matter of time before Dickerson is getting a majority of the time in centerfield. If this one is still too confusing for you or causing nausea, let me know and I will dumb it down a shade.

kfm
06-23-2009, 10:53 PM
I think The Crusty Baker has lost all of his remaining supporters after his anal-retentive stubbornness to continue playing these veterans who have proved they can't hit over these "rookies" who are proving they can hit.

I think it is quite clear that Dusty has not lost all of his supporters either on this board or with people who actually matter in the grand scheme of things. hence he is still the manager, despite all your wishes to the contrary. Dusty is stubborn and sometimes it works like Brandon Phillips hitting fourth and sometimes it does not. But the season is long and he is not going to ditch guys who have proven they can produce over the course of years just because some other guys have had a nice couple of months playing a couple days a week if that. I like Hanigan but when he gets his second hit with a RISP, maybe I will value your point of view a little more.

Captain Hook
06-23-2009, 10:54 PM
Why don't you reread what I actually wrote, and perhaps you will understand better. It is actually the exact opposite of what you are somehow misinterpreting. If you are familiar with the Reds you would understand that at the beginning of the season dickerson played himself out of the lineup and Nix played himself into it. Tavares is in the process of playing himself out of the lineup and it is only a matter of time before Dickerson is getting a majority of the time in centerfield.

Seems like to me that Dickerson is at best only splitting time in CF.The process of Taveras playing himself out of CF should be done.

kfm
06-23-2009, 10:59 PM
Certainly I don't blame Dusty 100%.I actually do not believe that the manager even makes that much of a difference.That doesn't mean they should get a free pass.I just think that when you bat Taveras and Gonzo 1 and 2 your doing something that no manager in baseball would do.I admit that if the Reds can get in the playoffs or even finish a few games over .500 I'll lay off Dusty.That's only natural.Dusty has been forced to be creative with all the injuries, certainly.I believe that he is far below average when it comes to doing that.His commitment to the vets might make for a happier club house but its imo its a problem and we all know how that turned out last year.Running Griffey out there in the 3 hole is almost as bad as Taveras and Gonzo 1 and 2.

I really don't like bashing Dusty because I love the Reds and he is the coach.I don't really want to continue because I have stated how I feel.I respect your defense of Baker and his actions but I don't agree.Feel free to comment but I've said all I have to say.For now.;)

How many games has gonzo batted second? Maybe twice and only because he was swingng the bat well. As far as no other manager would do that since your argument about batting tavares and gonzo 1 and 2 only happen twice this year, this is hardly an argument to begin with. Therefore, your actual argument is who would actually bat Tavares lead off. If you believe Dusty is the only guy manager in baseball who would do that, I suggest you review some old Rockies and Astros boxscores.

kfm
06-23-2009, 11:08 PM
Seems like to me that Dickerson is at best only splitting time in CF.The process of Taveras playing himself out of CF should be done.

If you mean splitting time to mean he is not playing everyday then you are right. I could be wrong, but it looks like Dickerson is going to be starting against righties and as you know the majority of major league pitchers are right handed. Ask Johnny Gomes if he thinks he is splitting time in left field. More proof of this is the fact that Dusty pinch hit for Tavares with Danny Richar in the ninth inning against a right hander. I know to fans we want someone who has a knee jerk reaction or a quick hook, but a clubhouse like that is one in disarray. Fans may love it, but there is a reason some people are managers and some people are fans.

Captain Hook
06-23-2009, 11:51 PM
If you mean splitting time to mean he is not playing everyday then you are right. I could be wrong, but it looks like Dickerson is going to be starting against righties and as you know the majority of major league pitchers are right handed. Ask Johnny Gomes if he thinks he is splitting time in left field. More proof of this is the fact that Dusty pinch hit for Tavares with Danny Richar in the ninth inning against a right hander. I know to fans we want someone who has a knee jerk reaction or a quick hook, but a clubhouse like that is one in disarray. Fans may love it, but there is a reason some people are managers and some people are fans.

I admit that I was happy that Dusty PH for Taveras tonight.I would hardly say that anyone wanting Willy T. benched is a knee jerk reaction.He has stunk pretty bad now for about two straight months.Its not like he is a established star that deserves to play for the whole season no matter how bad he does.

As far as how some people are managers.Dusty has managed some pretty good teams over his years.He was allowed to do this because he was a MLB player and stayed in the Biz until he was given a chance.Dusty does pretty well when he has a great team that does all the work most of the time.This is his first chance to do it with a young and sometimes overwhelmed team where his mistakes actually start to cost in the W/L column.The superstars aren't there to bail him out.Tonight's lineup was a joke.

kfm
06-24-2009, 07:32 AM
[QUOTE=Captain Hook;1902591]I admit that I was happy that Dusty PH for Taveras tonight.I would hardly say that anyone wanting Willy T. benched is a knee jerk reaction.He has stunk pretty bad now for about two straight months.Its not like he is a established star that deserves to play for the whole season no matter how bad he does.

As far as how some people are managers.Dusty has managed some pretty good teams over his years.He was allowed to do this because he was a MLB player and stayed in the Biz until he was given a chance.Dusty does pretty well when he has a great team that does all the work most of the time.This is his first chance to do it with a young and sometimes overwhelmed team where his mistakes actually start to cost in the W/L column.The superstars aren't there to bail him out.Tonight's lineup was a joke.[/QUOTEA

All managers who win, win with good players. Dusty has won everywhere he has gone, and he will win here. You can't simply dismiss his success has right place right time. Dusty got a cub's team with far less talent than the current cub's team closer to the world series than Lou Pinella has. We are less than halfway into the season and before Tavares slump he was well over .300. I am all for benching Tavares, but this obsession with blaming every reds lost on the manager and never even mentioning the players is just ridiculous. I know we Red's fans need someone to hate and now that Griffey and Dunn are gone and EE is on the DL I guess it will be Dusty. Let me ask you a question, if they win with Dusty will you give Dusty any credit or will you just say for the third time he went to a bad that turned into a winner and it had nothing to do with Dusty. Your answer will reveal more about you than it will about Dusty as a manager.

Captain Hook
06-24-2009, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE=Captain Hook;1902591]I admit that I was happy that Dusty PH for Taveras tonight.I would hardly say that anyone wanting Willy T. benched is a knee jerk reaction.He has stunk pretty bad now for about two straight months.Its not like he is a established star that deserves to play for the whole season no matter how bad he does.

As far as how some people are managers.Dusty has managed some pretty good teams over his years.He was allowed to do this because he was a MLB player and stayed in the Biz until he was given a chance.Dusty does pretty well when he has a great team that does all the work most of the time.This is his first chance to do it with a young and sometimes overwhelmed team where his mistakes actually start to cost in the W/L column.The superstars aren't there to bail him out.Tonight's lineup was a joke.[/QUOTEA

All managers who win, win with good players. Dusty has won everywhere he has gone, and he will win here. You can't simply dismiss his success has right place right time. Dusty got a cub's team with far less talent than the current cub's team closer to the world series than Lou Pinella has. We are less than halfway into the season and before Tavares slump he was well over .300. I am all for benching Tavares, but this obsession with blaming every reds lost on the manager and never even mentioning the players is just ridiculous. I know we Red's fans need someone to hate and now that Griffey and Dunn are gone and EE is on the DL I guess it will be Dusty. Let me ask you a question, if they win with Dusty will you give Dusty any credit or will you just say for the third time he went to a bad that turned into a winner and it had nothing to do with Dusty. Your answer will reveal more about you than it will about Dusty as a manager.

What would it reveal?That I don't mind saying that I was wrong and giving someone credit when they have overcome the odds.My goodness I'm such a terrible person.I have already said that I hope that Dusty proves myself and the rest of people here wrong.You act as if there is something wrong with the people criticizing Dusty instead of just realizing that even if you don't agree we all have good points.Anyways.Good luck with your ongoing battle to defend the toothpick.:starwars:

CWRed
06-24-2009, 05:29 PM
If you mean splitting time to mean he is not playing everyday then you are right. I could be wrong, but it looks like Dickerson is going to be starting against righties and as you know the majority of major league pitchers are right handed. Ask Johnny Gomes if he thinks he is splitting time in left field. More proof of this is the fact that Dusty pinch hit for Tavares with Danny Richar in the ninth inning against a right hander. I know to fans we want someone who has a knee jerk reaction or a quick hook, but a clubhouse like that is one in disarray. Fans may love it, but there is a reason some people are managers and some people are fans.

Dusty should totally go back to being a fan.

CWRed
06-24-2009, 05:38 PM
Why don't you reread what I actually wrote, and perhaps you will understand better. It is actually the exact opposite of what you are somehow misinterpreting. If you are familiar with the Reds you would understand that at the beginning of the season dickerson played himself out of the lineup and Nix played himself into it. Tavares is in the process of playing himself out of the lineup and it is only a matter of time before Dickerson is getting a majority of the time in centerfield. If this one is still too confusing for you or causing nausea, let me know and I will dumb it down a shade.

Listen here Dusty Jr. Read your post again. The gist I get is that you support a majority of what Dusty has done. Tavares should have played himself out of the lineup long ago. And Hairston still bats 2nd while Dickerson languishes either out of the order or bats way down (9th last night). And Hernadez is a "proven veteran?" and you're fine with Hangian being benched? Yes he is but that doesn't mean your hottest hitter lately (Hanigan) should not play. He should be DH'ing at least every game in Toronto. Most everyone has said Ramon looks tired and his BA is spiraling downward as of late. My point is that Dusty Baker will give the veterans or "his boys" way too many chances, while it takes 2-3 months for Dickerson to get in the lineup regularly. And lets' send out an APB for Paul Janish. I think I saw him sweeping up sunflower weeds the other day. Poor little Pinkus. I guess he stole Dusty's boxers or something.

Dusty should not ever be defended for what he continually does...maul this team and lineup (although tonight's is not half bad)....Although he has been better with the pitching staff this year. Ok I'm done dumping on Dusty for the day. :p:

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 07:07 PM
I think it is quite clear that Dusty has not lost all of his supporters either on this board or with people who actually matter in the grand scheme of things. hence he is still the manager, despite all your wishes to the contrary. Dusty is stubborn and sometimes it works like Brandon Phillips hitting fourth and sometimes it does not. But the season is long and he is not going to ditch guys who have proven they can produce over the course of years just because some other guys have had a nice couple of months playing a couple days a week if that. I like Hanigan but when he gets his second hit with a RISP, maybe I will value your point of view a little more.

I liked the decision to put Phillips in the #4 hole. Ownership obviously loves Baker. But, the ones who matter, the fans, won't show up and watch the games. Their opinion speaks volumes through their pocketbooks.

Your quote, "he is not going to ditch guys who have proven they can produce over the course of years just because some other guys have had a nice couple of months playing a couple days a week if that" obviously refers to Baker playing Taveras over Dickerson. But, reality doesn't support what you say. Dickerson's liftime OBP and speed, the purpose of a leadoff hitter, are far superior to Taveras' "proven" over the past 15 months. Dickerson's OPS is 300 points higher!!!!!!!! over that period. ....and that's not playing "a couple of times a week", it's 286 Plate Appearances for Dickerson versus 791 Plate Appearances for Taveras. Taveras is "proving" very well that he is exactly what Colorado thought he was, someone not worthy of even offering a contract to come back to the team. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with him at any price. Dickerson's OBP is also 100+ points higher over that time period!!!

Taveras is a joke. Dickerson's a great leadoff hitter. .290 OBP vs. .398 OBP.

kfm
06-25-2009, 07:35 AM
I liked the decision to put Phillips in the #4 hole. Ownership obviously loves Baker. But, the ones who matter, the fans, won't show up and watch the games. Their opinion speaks volumes through their pocketbooks.

Your quote, "he is not going to ditch guys who have proven they can produce over the course of years just because some other guys have had a nice couple of months playing a couple days a week if that" obviously refers to Baker playing Taveras over Dickerson. But, reality doesn't support what you say. Dickerson's liftime OBP and speed, the purpose of a leadoff hitter, are far superior to Taveras' "proven" over the past 15 months. Dickerson's OPS is 300 points higher!!!!!!!! over that period. ....and that's not playing "a couple of times a week", it's 286 Plate Appearances for Dickerson versus 791 Plate Appearances for Taveras. Taveras is "proving" very well that he is exactly what Colorado thought he was, someone not worthy of even offering a contract to come back to the team. They wanted absolutely nothing to do with him at any price. Dickerson's OBP is also 100+ points higher over that time period!!!

Taveras is a joke. Dickerson's a great leadoff hitter. .290 OBP vs. .398 OBP.

Tavares has been terrible and I am all for playing Dickerson. I was actually talking about Janish and Hanigan as compared to Agon and Hernandez.

kfm
06-25-2009, 07:39 AM
[QUOTE=kfm;1902642]

What would it reveal?That I don't mind saying that I was wrong and giving someone credit when they have overcome the odds.My goodness I'm such a terrible person.I have already said that I hope that Dusty proves myself and the rest of people here wrong.You act as if there is something wrong with the people criticizing Dusty instead of just realizing that even if you don't agree we all have good points.Anyways.Good luck with your ongoing battle to defend the toothpick.:starwars:

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Dusty. I criticize him myself, but I just think many of the comments about him are overboard.

kfm
06-25-2009, 07:41 AM
Listen here Dusty Jr. Read your post again. The gist I get is that you support a majority of what Dusty has done. Tavares should have played himself out of the lineup long ago. And Hairston still bats 2nd while Dickerson languishes either out of the order or bats way down (9th last night). And Hernadez is a "proven veteran?" and you're fine with Hangian being benched? Yes he is but that doesn't mean your hottest hitter lately (Hanigan) should not play. He should be DH'ing at least every game in Toronto. Most everyone has said Ramon looks tired and his BA is spiraling downward as of late. My point is that Dusty Baker will give the veterans or "his boys" way too many chances, while it takes 2-3 months for Dickerson to get in the lineup regularly. And lets' send out an APB for Paul Janish. I think I saw him sweeping up sunflower weeds the other day. Poor little Pinkus. I guess he stole Dusty's boxers or something.

Dusty should not ever be defended for what he continually does...maul this team and lineup (although tonight's is not half bad)....Although he has been better with the pitching staff this year. Ok I'm done dumping on Dusty for the day. :p:

So we are calling names now. So Hanigan should DH over Johnny Gomes, I thought all the Dusty bashers were mad Gomes wasn't playing.

flash
06-25-2009, 08:40 AM
When you critizize Hanigan for not being sucessful with RISP you are correct, but he does have a better average then Bruce in that regard. Our veteran catcher allowed 3 stolen bases Tuesday night. He is 0-5 since Votto came back He has left 3 runners on base, one in scoring position. Yeah, our veteran catcher has really made a difference. Meanwhile Hanigan may be losing his chance to be the team's sole position player on the All-Star team, and of course he isn't getting the chance to try for ROY honors.

But you got to have that veteran presence.

GIDP
06-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Why on earth do you care what his BA with RISP is when hes only had like 40 ABs.

Not to mention hes been batting 8th so most likely hes going up there trying to get a hit and swinging at pitches he normally wouldnt swing at because after him its up to the pitcher.

Kingspoint
06-25-2009, 08:08 PM
Tavares has been terrible and I am all for playing Dickerson. I was actually talking about Janish and Hanigan as compared to Agon and Hernandez.

That one's a toss-up for me. As abysmal as Hernandez has been offensively, I "understand" that he plays defense really well and makes plays others wouldn't make. Not being able to witness it myself, I'll have to go with what those who see them say.

It is the time of year though to stick with the guys who have done the best up to this point. Both those positions could be split, I guess.

kfm
06-25-2009, 08:37 PM
When you critizize Hanigan for not being sucessful with RISP you are correct, but he does have a better average then Bruce in that regard. Our veteran catcher allowed 3 stolen bases Tuesday night. He is 0-5 since Votto came back He has left 3 runners on base, one in scoring position. Yeah, our veteran catcher has really made a difference. Meanwhile Hanigan may be losing his chance to be the team's sole position player on the All-Star team, and of course he isn't getting the chance to try for ROY honors.

But you got to have that veteran presence.

Yes, let's judge all players by how they perform in one game. Bill James watch out.

kfm
06-25-2009, 08:42 PM
That one's a toss-up for me. As abysmal as Hernandez has been offensively, I "understand" that he plays defense really well and makes plays others wouldn't make. Not being able to witness it myself, I'll have to go with what those who see them say.

It is the time of year though to stick with the guys who have done the best up to this point. Both those positions could be split, I guess.

Kingspoint, I agree that we are getting closer to the time that you may want to play some of the other guys more and more to see if their numbers are because they are being protected with limited play or to determine if they can really produce. We all know guys who looked great when they were not playing everyday, but were exposed as the backup players they are when they finally got their chance.

kfm
06-25-2009, 08:44 PM
Why on earth do you care what his BA with RISP is when hes only had like 40 ABs.

Not to mention hes been batting 8th so most likely hes going up there trying to get a hit and swinging at pitches he normally wouldnt swing at because after him its up to the pitcher.

So on a team that struggles to score runs you want to know why I care how a guy performs when he has the opportunity to drive in runs? Hmm, so many ways to go on this one.

Kingspoint
06-25-2009, 08:52 PM
In a High-School season a player may only needs to get about 10-15 Plate Appearances w/ RISP before everyone knows who the clutch players are and who the clutch players aren't.

You don't need large sample sizes for most things. Most of the time, a small sample size does quite well when the sample size is recent.

GIDP
06-26-2009, 12:04 AM
So on a team that struggles to score runs you want to know why I care how a guy performs when he has the opportunity to drive in runs? Hmm, so many ways to go on this one.
Well for his career hes batting .239/.368/.348 in 46 ABs

Hes a 4 for 4 from being a career .300 hitter with RISP.

kfm
06-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Well for his career hes batting .239/.368/.348 in 46 ABs

Hes a 4 for 4 from being a career .300 hitter with RISP.

What is he doing this year?

GIDP
06-26-2009, 05:27 PM
What is he doing this year?

4 for 24

which also means if he went 4 for 4 he would be at .285.

The point is such a small number there is no reason to really put much stock into it.

This also makes me question if you are benching a guy because of his ability with RISP then is it really worth never batting him just because of that 1 AB he might get per game with a RISP? Id say id rather have the 4 ABs from the better hitter than worry about a small sample size in case that 1 AB comes up.

kfm
06-26-2009, 05:48 PM
Here is Ryan Hanigan. It is a mix of good and bad, but clearly he is better with no RISP. Hanigan is a nice player and I would not have been opposed to him being the Reds starting catcher before they went out and got Ramon Hernandez. I like him a lot, but if he either makes the allstar team or win's ROY than it has been a bad year for catchers and/or rookies.

2009 Situational Stats
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Total 42 126 15 41 4 1 1 8 19 11 0 0 .325 .411 .397 .808

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Bases Empty 39 83 1 31 3 1 1 1 13 5 0 0 .373 .458 .470 .928
Runners On 34 43 14 10 1 0 0 7 6 6 0 0 .233 .320 .256 .576
RISP 26 24 13 4 1 0 0 7 4 4 0 0 .167 .276 .208 .484
RISP w/2 Outs 11 7 5 3 0 0 0 3 2 1 0 0 .429 .556 .429 .984
Bases Loaded 3 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
None on/out 29 38 0 13 1 1 0 0 6 1 0 0 .342 .432 .421 .853
None on:1/2 Out 39 45 1 18 2 0 1 1 7 4 0 0 .400 .481 .511 .992
Men on, 2 outs 19 14 6 4 0 0 0 3 4 2 0 0 .286 .444 .286 .730
Man on 3rd, < 2 outs 15 8 6 0 0 0 0 2 2 2 0 0 .000 .182 .000 .182

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Count 0-0 20 11 15 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .273 .273 .364 .636
Count 0-1 10 9 0 3 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .333 .300 .333 .633
After (0-1) 35 57 0 18 3 1 1 6 4 7 0 0 .316 .355 .456 .811
Count 0-2 6 6 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 .167 .167 .167 .333
After (0-2) 17 19 0 6 1 0 1 4 1 4 0 0 .316 .350 .526 .876
Count 1-0 12 17 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .412 .412 .412 .824
After (1-0) 35 58 0 20 0 0 0 2 15 4 0 0 .345 .479 .345 .824
Count 1-1 10 12 0 6 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .750 1.250
After (1-1) 35 56 0 17 2 1 0 1 7 7 0 0 .304 .381 .375 .756
Count 1-2 14 15 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 .133 .133 .133 .267
After (1-2) 27 32 0 10 1 0 1 4 4 5 0 0 .313 .389 .438 .826
Count 2-0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
After (2-0) 18 13 0 5 0 0 0 1 11 0 0 0 .385 .667 .385 1.051
Count 2-1 13 16 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .313 .313 .313 .625
After (2-1) 28 36 0 11 1 0 0 1 9 4 0 0 .306 .444 .333 .778
Count 2-2 13 21 0 7 1 0 1 5 0 5 0 0 .333 .333 .524 .857
After (2-2) 21 32 0 13 2 0 1 5 6 5 0 0 .406 .500 .563 1.063
Count 3-0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 .000 1.000 .000 .000
After (3-0) 8 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 .000 .750 .000 .750
Count 3-1 7 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 .000 .571 .000 .571
After (3-1) 13 7 0 1 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 .143 .600 .143 .743
Count 3-2 20 15 0 7 1 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 .467 .680 .533 1.213
After (3-2) 20 15 0 7 1 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 .467 .680 .533 1.213

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Batting 3rd 2 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 .000 .500 .000 .500
Batting 4th 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Batting 5th 1 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 .500 .750 .500 1.250
Batting 6th 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000
Batting 7th 12 42 4 15 1 1 0 1 4 2 0 0 .357 .404 .429 .833
Batting 8th 22 72 9 21 2 0 1 5 11 9 0 0 .292 .386 .361 .747
Batting 9th 3 6 1 3 1 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .667 1.167

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
As C 40 122 15 39 4 1 1 8 19 11 0 0 .320 .408 .393 .802
As PH 4 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000


Last updated through games completed on Jun 25, 2009


Here is Ramon Hernadez and he too is a mix of good and bad. These players stats are almost polar opposites of each other. He is much better when runners are on base, then gets even better with RISP and then gets better with RISP and two outs. So here are both sets of stats and we can put our feelings aside and look at what the stats say. I think looking at the entire year reveals much more than looking at 1 or 2 games, but I can't imagine anyone would be that short sided.

2009 Situational Stats
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Total 63 228 21 54 9 0 5 28 28 26 1 0 .237 .323 .342 .665

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Bases Empty 63 137 1 30 8 0 1 1 8 19 0 0 .219 .272 .299 .571
Runners On 57 91 20 24 1 0 4 27 20 7 1 0 .264 .389 .407 .796
RISP 45 50 15 14 1 0 1 21 17 4 0 0 .280 .449 .360 .809
RISP w/2 Outs 30 27 6 8 1 0 1 12 10 1 0 0 .296 .486 .444 .931
Bases Loaded 4 5 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 .200 .200 .200 .400

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
None on/out 37 54 1 13 2 0 1 1 3 5 0 0 .241 .293 .333 .626
None on:1/2 Out 63 83 0 17 6 0 0 0 5 14 0 0 .205 .258 .277 .536
Men on, 2 outs 41 41 8 11 1 0 2 14 11 2 0 0 .268 .423 .439 .862
Man on 3rd, < 2 outs 17 9 6 4 0 0 0 8 3 1 0 0 .444 .500 .444 .944

kfm
06-26-2009, 05:51 PM
4 for 24

which also means if he went 4 for 4 he would be at .285.

The point is such a small number there is no reason to really put much stock into it.

This also makes me question if you are benching a guy because of his ability with RISP then is it really worth never batting him just because of that 1 AB he might get per game with a RISP? Id say id rather have the 4 ABs from the better hitter than worry about a small sample size in case that 1 AB comes up.

GIDP, this is a very fair point, and it is a very small sample size. It is just part of the consideration, so I don't think we are that far apart in what we are considering just what our final decision is.

GIDP
06-26-2009, 05:52 PM
ignore this

GIDP
06-26-2009, 05:57 PM
Benching hanigan because of his 24 ABs with RISP this year is as silly as benching a pitcher because of 1 bad game.

kfm
06-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Benching hanigan because of his 24 ABs with RISP this year is as silly as benching a pitcher because of 1 bad game.

Hanigan wasn't benched. He is trying to take someone else's job. That is a big difference. I don't know how you can look at their numbers and say bench this guy for that guy because one has been far more productive with their hits than the other. And you are right, if Hanigan were the starter benching him would not make sense as would benching a starter who has one bad start. So we agree both of those are ridiculous suggestions.

GIDP
06-26-2009, 06:19 PM
Hanigan wasn't benched. He is trying to take someone else's job. That is a big difference. I don't know how you can look at their numbers and say bench this guy for that guy because one has been far more productive with their hits than the other. And you are right, if Hanigan were the starter benching him would not make sense as would benching a starter who has one bad start. So we agree both of those are ridiculous suggestions.

Hanigan should already have his job. Dusty is just finding a way for Hanigan not to take his job so he brings up some small sample size that fits his argument instead of looking at the overall picture.

More productive with his hits isn't really a good way of putting it because Hanigan hasn't received the amount of chances Hernandez has with RISP. Not to mention Ryan has the pitcher batting behind him pretty much every night. Hard to get something to hit when there is little reason to give you something to hit with a runner on base.

Saying you are starting Ramon because of his RISP compared to Hanigan isnt a enough of a reason considering the sample size and the overall picture of hanigans value with the bat.

After all Hanigan has been on base only 22 times less than Ramon and has in more than 100 less ABs.

CesarGeronimo
06-26-2009, 07:03 PM
The overall contrast between the two statistically is pretty clear:

OBP/SLG/OPS
Hanigan .411/.397/.808 in 126 ABs
Hernandez .324/.339/.664 in 224 ABs

Also, Hanigan has thrown out 47.8% of base stealers; Hernandez 34.8%

Kingspoint
06-26-2009, 07:29 PM
4 for 24

which also means if he went 4 for 4 he would be at .285.

The point is such a small number there is no reason to really put much stock into it.

This also makes me question if you are benching a guy because of his ability with RISP then is it really worth never batting him just because of that 1 AB he might get per game with a RISP? Id say id rather have the 4 ABs from the better hitter than worry about a small sample size in case that 1 AB comes up.


A guy who's 4-24 isn't going to get a hit in each of his next 4 opportunities. I can put a whole lot of stock into that.

CesarGeronimo
06-26-2009, 07:31 PM
I would contend that even if it's true that Hanigan struggles with runners on base, that only strengthens the argument that he's the best fit for the No. 2 spot in the Reds' batting order. ;)

Kingspoint
06-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Benching hanigan because of his 24 ABs with RISP this year is as silly as benching a pitcher because of 1 bad game.

It's June 25th.

Hanigan has more than proven that he's much better than Hernandez this season in every way, shape and form.

Dusty is just stubborn as a mule.

Kingspoint
06-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Not to mention Ryan has the pitcher batting behind him pretty much every night. Hard to get something to hit when there is little reason to give you something to hit with a runner on base.



Hernandez is batting 6th tonight. Let Hanigan and his .320 BA hit 6th and watch the RBI's appear.

GIDP
06-26-2009, 08:21 PM
A guy who's 4-24 isn't going to get a hit in each of his next 4 opportunities. I can put a whole lot of stock into that.

so you think that 24 AB stretch means he will never be more than a 4 for 24 average hitter with RISP?

kfm
06-27-2009, 12:09 AM
Look, I like Hernandez and I like Hanigan, my only point is really that the idea that starting Hernandez over Hanigan is such a no brainer that only the worst manager in all of baseball Dusty Baker would do this is just off base. I think you all would be surprised by the number of managers who would be doing the exact same thing that Baker is doing with these two. I do find it ironic that we are dismissing one guys production throughout his career because another guy has performed well in 126 at bats this season. At the same time, dismissing Hanigan's short comings as a small sample size. I agree both his RISP and his 126 at bats are a small sample size. Hernandez has been a productive big league catcher and very few managers would simply toss him aside because a 29 year old rookie has had a good 126 at bats. There are some that I am sure would, but the idea that this is not even a close call or a no brainer is just not realistic. Look at what the tigers did with their third base situation last year sending a guy who had a great year (emphasis on year not 126 ab) back down to the minors so Joe Crede could start or the Angels a couple of years ago sending Jared Weaver back to the minors so his lousy brother could pitch. This was not done by Dusty but by two managers who have World Series rings. We watch the Reds day in and day out so we focus on their short comings, but talk to fans of other teams and you will get a littany of complaints about their stupid managers. Go to the cardinals message board sometime, and listen to the things they say about LaRussa, and I thought he invented baseball.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 04:44 PM
so you think that 24 AB stretch means he will never be more than a 4 for 24 average hitter with RISP? Not in his next 4 at-bats, which is what was suggested.

But, let's not forget that we agree that Hanigan should be starting regardless of what their BA is w/ RISP. All the more reason to start him and bat him 2nd.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Not in his next 4 at-bats, which is what was suggested.

But, let's not forget that we agree that Hanigan should be starting regardless of what their BA is w/ RISP. All the more reason to start him and bat him 2nd.
When does the sample size become too small for you?

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 07:25 PM
When does the sample size become too small for you?

I don't believe a player's career has to be over with before saying that he's had enough appearances.

Since hitting a baseball is a timing thing, I put a lot of faith into small sample sizes if they are recent....for a starting pitcher, four or five starts. For a reliever, about the same amount of time...three weeks. For a hitter, 3 or 4 weeks. All of this can then be measured against "normal", what they've done the last two seasons versus how old they are, if they're getting older or younger. You can even predict the "fluke" season, aka Jerry Hairston, Jr., last season. Every veteran has one "fluke" season about 5 years past his peak age of 27, then the following season they have a dramatic dropoff in line with their career averages, as Hairston is doing this season. Steroids changes everything, though. But, if there's no steroids, baseball's pretty predictable with very few appearances, other than defense. Defense, while being the most constant and predictable, is not measurable by any means, yet.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 07:27 PM
RISP isnt a recent thing though. Its random ABs over a large string of ABs.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 07:34 PM
RISP isnt a recent thing though. Its random ABs over a large string of ABs.

That's very true, and so it's different. For it, I take the last two or three seasons. Clutch-hitting is definitely a type of performance. Ken Griffey, Sr., Harold Baines, Garrett Anderson. These guys always would get the RBI's when it was most needed, at least moreso than other guys on their team. I would have rather had Ken Griffey, Sr. up to bat with RISP than Johnny Bench, though Bench had more RBI's. Sr was more likely to drive in a run in a game-changing situation. Bench is the reason I'm a REDS fan, so I'm not saying anything against him here.

I've seen enough of Edwin Encarnacion to know that he's a good RBI guy. He's going to make this team so much better when he returns. He's so young still, but has so much major league experience already, he's one of the veterans of this ballclub. We instantly improve the day he returns to the field.

Someone should have run away with the Central by now. I think it's the REDS to grab, and I do believe that two months from now, Sep 1st, the REDS are going to be within 2 games of either the Division lead and/or the Wildcard.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 07:36 PM
so you think that 24 AB stretch means he will never be more than a 4 for 24 average hitter with RISP?

If you're coaching High School, or something like that, you can have two guys both hitting .300, but you definitely know which one you'd rather have up with the game on the line when all you need is a single to either tie the game or go ahead, even though you may have at most 5 or 6 plate appearances from either one of them up to this point of the season.