PDA

View Full Version : It's time to sell



NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Reds are now in 4th place in the Central, 4 games behind both the Cards and Brewers, 1 and 1/2 behind the Cubs, and falling fast. Another week like this and they will be 7 out, and completely done. It's time to sell. Realistically this team has some horrible contracts: Taveras, Lincoln and Arroyo, that will be hard to unload. But they still have some players of value:

Cordero
Harang
Rhodes
Weathers
Hairston
Arroyo (if you eat some money)
Ramon Hernandez
even Phillips if you're really given a great offer


It's time to face the fact's. This team simply isn't good enough to compete this year, and needs to build. Honestly, I don't think they're good enough in 2010 either. To me this is a complete rebuild, and I don't see them competing until at leat 2011.


Also, now that they are done it's time to find out once and for all about Bailey. I bring him up and start him every 5 days for the rest of the year. No matter what. It's time to find out. Even if he gets hammered for a month, it's time he gets a real true shot.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-21-2009, 05:20 PM
how do you draw this conclusion when we dont have Votto, EE, and we are without Volquez?

mac624
06-21-2009, 05:23 PM
How about we wait for Joey to get back. I think some tweaking needs done, but it's not time to sell. I suspect we'll see something minor done by the deadline, but I don't see anything major done until the off season at the earliest.

Newport Red
06-21-2009, 05:26 PM
Reds are now in 4th place in the Central, 4 games behind both the Cards and Brewers, 1 and 1/2 behind the Cubs, and falling fast. Another week like this and they will be 7 out, and completely done. It's time to sell. Realistically this team has some horrible contracts: Taveras, Lincoln and Arroyo, that will be hard to unload. But they still have some players of value:

Cordero
Harang
Rhodes
Weathers
Hairston
Arroyo (if you eat some money)
Ramon Hernandez
even Phillips if you're really given a great offer




It's time to face the fact's. This team simply isn't good enough to compete this year, and needs to build. Honestly, I don't think they're good enough in 2010 either. To me this is a complete rebuild, and I don't see them competing until at leat 2011.


Also, now that they are done it's time to find out once and for all about Bailey. I bring him up and start him every 5 days for the rest of the year. No matter what. It's time to find out. Even if he gets hammered for a month, it's time he gets a real true shot.

Are we 4 games out of first place or 4 games from being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 05:26 PM
I doubt Volquez and EE are back before the all star break. And I don't think Votto alone is enough. By that time the Red's will be probably 7 games out. Even if they play well they simply aren't good enough to comeback from that type of deficit.

kfm
06-21-2009, 05:40 PM
I doubt Volquez and EE are back before the all star break. And I don't think Votto alone is enough. By that time the Red's will be probably 7 games out. Even if they play well they simply aren't good enough to comeback from that type of deficit.

So why not wait until they are actually 7 games out to sell instead of panicking when they are 4 games out of first place and deciding that they must sell now? If it is a certainty that they will be that far out then let's just wait for it to happen and then sell. It is possible that someone in this Division will catch fire, but it is not very likely but when Votto, VOlquez, and Edwin are all back it could be the Reds. A good week to ten days in this division could catapault the reds to first place. Let's face it, look how bad they have been for the last month and they are still only 4 games out.

Ghosts of 1990
06-21-2009, 05:42 PM
It's either time to sell; or it's time to buy. The men who are left to decide are being paid a lot of money to make up their mind on just that. If we were like the White Sox, Cubs, Braves, Yankees, or Red Sox, etc. we would absolutely be adding stuff right now. But we're the Reds. The offense is clearly crying and aching for another hitter. Doesn't look like Castillini wants to take out his wallet right now. He didn't completely mean what he said. There are guys out there who we could go and get and we'd have a chance this year.

If they're not going to add some things to this team along with getting back Votto and Edwin (and Edwin just was placed on the 60 day DL) then I hope we do sell guys like Arroyo, and see what the kids can do. Sell and play the Fraziers, Bruce's, Baileys.

If they'll add some people, then lets keep trying with the veterans.

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 05:49 PM
Also, just so it's clear, it's not the 4 games back that is the big thing for me. It's the 4 games back on top of the fact that I just don't think this team is as good as the Cubs, Brewers or Cards. This team has some good pieces, but I just don't think this is the year. There just isn't enough there in my opinion.

kfm
06-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Also, just so it's clear, it's not the 4 games back that is the big thing for me. It's the 4 games back on top of the fact that I just don't think this team is as good as the Cubs, Brewers or Cards. This team has some good pieces, but I just don't think this is the year. There just isn't enough there in my opinion.

I understand that perspective and there is the old what a team looks like on paper and what they actually do on the field. On the field, so far this team is just as good as the teams you mentioned. Don't forget they are doing it without arguably their best pitcher, position player, and the guy who led this team in homeruns last year and batting average the year before. Take those three players away from every other team you've mentioned and how is their season going. The reds are very close and they are close because they have very good pitching, starting and relief. They need to either add a hitter or have a Bruce, Dickerson, or Encarnacion seriously step up to go with Votto and Phillips in the middle of the order. If they do fall back to eight or nine games, I would consider moving some of the players you mentioned, but I would not under any circumstances do a wholesale firesale. Right now this team could seriously compete and be a serious contender by adding a bat. If you start moving all of those pieces you add a lot more variables and you push back serious world series talk for a few more years.

mroby85
06-21-2009, 06:18 PM
Reds are now in 4th place in the Central, 4 games behind both the Cards and Brewers, 1 and 1/2 behind the Cubs, and falling fast. Another week like this and they will be 7 out, and completely done. It's time to sell. Realistically this team has some horrible contracts: Taveras, Lincoln and Arroyo, that will be hard to unload. But they still have some players of value:

Cordero
Harang
Rhodes
Weathers
Hairston
Arroyo (if you eat some money)
Ramon Hernandez
even Phillips if you're really given a great offer


It's time to face the fact's. This team simply isn't good enough to compete this year, and needs to build. Honestly, I don't think they're good enough in 2010 either. To me this is a complete rebuild, and I don't see them competing until at leat 2011.


Also, now that they are done it's time to find out once and for all about Bailey. I bring him up and start him every 5 days for the rest of the year. No matter what. It's time to find out. Even if he gets hammered for a month, it's time he gets a real true shot.

Give up easy? :rolleyes:
I think the attitude of losing has rubbed off on our fan base. People had started mentioning selling as early as two weeks ago, like we just think it's an annual event or something. This team is close to winning, and if they don't win this year, these guys that are mentioned are under contract for next year. Do you want to lose forever? We finally have an awesome rotation, and people want to get rid of 2 of the players out of it for unproven players. Brandon Phillips? you can't be serious! I couldn't disagree more.

kfm
06-21-2009, 06:24 PM
Give up easy? :rolleyes:
I think the attitude of losing has rubbed off on our fan base. People had started mentioning selling as early as two weeks ago, like we just think it's an annual event or something. This team is close to winning, and if they don't win next year, these guys that are mentioned are under contract for next year. Do you want to lose forever? We finally have an awesome rotation, and people want to get rid of 2 of the players out of it for unproven players. Brandon Phillips? you can't be serious! I couldn't disagree more.

I think losing has rubbed off on the fan base. It is like an annual event, that fans just look for an excuse to start getting rid of players and panic at the first sign of losing. The only thing I would add to your post is the obsession with young unproven players over veterans. Brandon Phillips is one of the most complete players, if not the most complete player, the reds have and he is still young and has the prime of his career ahead of him. I just don't get the mind set that we want to move these players. At some point, you've got to stop with all the future talk because the future is now.

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 06:40 PM
Well, some of the players on my list I'd be more willing to move then others.

Like with Harang, I move him only for a Hanley Ramirez type of SS prospect. Now, you probably don't get that, but that's fine. Then I just don't move him. I'm not advocating just giving away players for nothing. I would want real high level prospects for Harang or Cordero. And Phillips would be even more.

JoeyGears76
06-21-2009, 07:09 PM
How about we wait a month and then see where we are? If you sell every time you're 4 games back, then most teams would be selling in early April.

nw_ohio_fan
06-21-2009, 07:44 PM
4 Games out. 4 Games out and we want to throw in a towel? No way. Did Philly give up the last 2 years in the East? What about Colorado when they got to the World Series? No way do we sell. I'm not saying let's buy, but you know this is a team that will have to learn to deal with hard times. It's called Diversity. These kids are doing it together. Don't give up hope because we are not 1st in June. This team can make the playoffs. All I ask is keep the faith. Look at the boys in Cleveland. Now that's a mess. There are so many fans for other teams that wish they had the core of youth we have. Also these kids need these vets around to learn. Don't put them in charge of a boat they are not ready to captain. The time is coming. Be patient.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-21-2009, 07:54 PM
4 Games out. 4 Games out and we want to throw in a towel? No way. Did Philly give up the last 2 years in the East? What about Colorado when they got to the World Series? No way do we sell. I'm not saying let's buy, but you know this is a team that will have to learn to deal with hard times. It's called Diversity. These kids are doing it together. Don't give up hope because we are not 1st in June. This team can make the playoffs. All I ask is keep the faith. Look at the boys in Cleveland. Now that's a mess. There are so many fans for other teams that wish they had the core of youth we have. Also these kids need these vets around to learn. Don't put them in charge of a boat they are not ready to captain. The time is coming. Be patient.

This could very well be post of the 2009 season right here. Amen

BTW you're not too far from me Paulding, OH:thumbup:

JoeyGears76
06-21-2009, 07:55 PM
It's called Diversity.

I think the proper term is adversity, but we knew what you meant.

JWP
06-21-2009, 08:03 PM
4 Games out. 4 Games out and we want to throw in a towel? No way. Did Philly give up the last 2 years in the East? What about Colorado when they got to the World Series? No way do we sell. I'm not saying let's buy, but you know this is a team that will have to learn to deal with hard times. It's called Diversity. These kids are doing it together. Don't give up hope because we are not 1st in June. This team can make the playoffs. All I ask is keep the faith. Look at the boys in Cleveland. Now that's a mess. There are so many fans for other teams that wish they had the core of youth we have. Also these kids need these vets around to learn. Don't put them in charge of a boat they are not ready to captain. The time is coming. Be patient.

I think the word you were looking for was 'adversity.'

But yeah, I agree. The Reds have been without their best hitter and their best pitcher for more than a month, and, while they are struggling, have been treading water in the NL Central just fine. Four games behind is peanuts. The idea of selling at this point is pretty preposterous.

Griffey012
06-21-2009, 09:53 PM
I am really confused as to why we can't compete this year and definitely why we can't compete next year. We have 5 spots in the rotation full and a strong bullpen. We have a boatload of guys in AA AAA who are ready to step in a take some AB's. We have a RF who is 21 or 22 and has 17 homeruns. We have one of the best 2nd Basemen and first basemen in the game. Catching is in check with Hanigan. Outside of getting Taveras going or shipping him out, fixing the SS situation and 3rd base depending on EdE...we are looking darn good for 2010.

And by the way we are 4 games out with Votto, EdE, and Volquez all waiting to get back. All we need to do is pick up an average SS and we might just be having enough offense to give ourselves a shot at the playoffs. Thats all we want is a legitimate shot, I dont care if we are 7 games out at the break, Mil, STL, and CHI have not shown themselves to be able to run away with anything right now. Every team in this division has been as up and down as we have...everything just might be ok.

BluegrassRedleg
06-21-2009, 10:46 PM
The one thing the Reds have frustrated me the most the last 10-15 years is this constant state of being "in between." They've never truly committed to adding legit pieces to make the club better, and they've never truly committed to rebuilding. It's the endless middle-of-the-road stuff that needs to end. It seems like we're in the median again this year.

BigJohn
06-21-2009, 10:55 PM
I don't think it is time to sell, I think it is time to throw out the TOOTHPICK! He has lost at least 10 games on his own this year!

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 10:57 PM
I wouldn't compare the talent level of this team to those Philly teams. Hamels was probably as good, if not better then any of our starters, and that lineup they had is better in virtually every spot (if not every single one 1-8).

Aces Wild
06-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Yep Hamels was as good as any of our guys. However, after Hamels there wasn't a starter on that team that was as good as what we have, and our BP is just as good if not better.


The difference is definitely the sticks. I wouldn't think of selling, but would definitely be in the market to BUY a SS and LF. Give me a healthy Votto, EE, EV and a couple of more sticks and we do have a shot this year.

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 11:22 PM
Wrong, Moyer went 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA. Myers had a 4.5 ERA and was better then Arroyo.

And the top 5 guys in their bullpen all had season ERA's lower then 3.26, with lidge going 41-41 in saves.

I actually think the pitching staff's are similar. But, there is no comparison in terms of offense and really in terms of bench.



And, I do think this team has talent, and some good pieces. I just don't think this is the year. I think they need some more, and I don't think they are willing to add the salary and give up what they have to in order to get what they need.

Griffey012
06-21-2009, 11:28 PM
Wrong, Moyer went 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA. Myers had a 4.5 ERA and was better then Arroyo.

And the top 5 guys in their bullpen all had season ERA's lower then 3.26, with lidge going 41-41 in saves.

I actually think the pitching staff's are similar. But, there is no comparison in terms of offense and really in terms of bench.



And, I do think this team has talent, and some good pieces. I just don't think this is the year. I think they need some more, and I don't think they are willing to add the salary and give up what they have to in order to get what they need.

We aren't of there caliber especially in the department of the lineup, pitching would be a good debate. However most all of our big pieces that you listed need to stay here for the next couple years. With the exception of Arroyo I would field offers for him for a solid return in the form of a SS of equal importance and talent. And maybe Harang as you said depending on the package of players. We should definitely be looking to unload some prospects in return for a big bat as we now actually have the depth to do that.

Do I think we end up in the playoffs, no I dont. But I do think this team can and has the best shot we have had in a long time.

NeilHamburger
06-21-2009, 11:33 PM
You aren't getting a big SS prospect for Arroyo with that contract. He's due about 11 million next year, and I think more then that in 2012. And outside of Phillips and Harang who on that list would be a really big loss for 2010? (ie...couldn't be replaced with freed up money, or replaced by good prospects)



And hey, I'd be all for going all in, but when I say all in I mean all in. I'd be all for going out tomorrow and getting Holliday or Dye for left, and DeRosa for 3rd/2nd with Phillips going to SS when EE comes back.

And having a lineup of:
Dickerson
Phillips
Votto
Dye/Holliday
DeRosa
EE
Bruce
Hernandez


But, my theory is don't go half way. Either go all in or cut bait. Go for the WS ring, not 82 wins.

BluegrassRedleg
06-21-2009, 11:57 PM
^ Neither Phillips nor Harang would be a big loss, depending on the return. I'd miss both, but nobody on this team short of Votto, Cueto and Volquez are untouchable right now IMHO.

bounty37h
06-22-2009, 11:20 AM
Reds are now in 4th place in the Central, 4 games behind both the Cards and Brewers, 1 and 1/2 behind the Cubs, and falling fast. Another week like this and they will be 7 out, and completely done. It's time to sell. Realistically this team has some horrible contracts: Taveras, Lincoln and Arroyo, that will be hard to unload. But they still have some players of value:

Cordero
Harang
Rhodes
Weathers
Hairston
Arroyo (if you eat some money)
Ramon Hernandez
even Phillips if you're really given a great offer


It's time to face the fact's. This team simply isn't good enough to compete this year, and needs to build. Honestly, I don't think they're good enough in 2010 either. To me this is a complete rebuild, and I don't see them competing until at leat 2011.


Also, now that they are done it's time to find out once and for all about Bailey. I bring him up and start him every 5 days for the rest of the year. No matter what. It's time to find out. Even if he gets hammered for a month, it's time he gets a real true shot.

I dont know, i am kinda enjoying even being in consideration at this point in the season, not ready to give up before the all star break only 4 out. No, not the rebirth of the BRM, but dag, we cant be all that bad overall to still be in it, and sometimes luck wins too. I would prefer to remain enjoying even if we dont win it all, then to give up and wait till next year....again. I hate next year, want to enjoy this one for once.

bounty37h
06-22-2009, 11:22 AM
I doubt Volquez and EE are back before the all star break. And I don't think Votto alone is enough. By that time the Red's will be probably 7 games out. Even if they play well they simply aren't good enough to comeback from that type of deficit.

By that thinking, with them gone as long as they have been, shouldnt we alreayd be 7+ out? Think I want to ride this one out.

Plus Plus
06-22-2009, 11:42 AM
Wrong, Moyer went 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA. Myers had a 4.5 ERA and was better then Arroyo.

Myers had bounced between the minors and majors all year long. He is not a good example of someone who is better than Arroyo.

Also, what about the Cubs is better than the Reds besides the quality of players on their DL? They have a rotation that isn't dominating in any fashion, a bunch of contracts to players that play the DL position (e.g. Bradley, Harden) and first basemen playing the outfield spots. They also have a pathetic bullpen. The Cardinals and Brewers might be better than the Reds, but by how much? There is no juggernaut in this division by any stretch of the imagination, and really the only one in the NL is out in Los Angeles. The Reds are 4 games out in the central but only 3 out in the wild card. There is absolutely no reason to panic and ship out anyone of value in a sale right now.

Having a competitive team isn't a switch than can be turned on and off. The Reds are so close to having a team that can compete with the best of the NL that it is scary. Nothing would kill the fan base faster than having a .500 team through 68 games without its top offensive contributors and its top pitcher from last year than selling a month and a half prematurely.

Slyder
06-22-2009, 12:19 PM
4 Games out. 4 Games out and we want to throw in a towel? No way. Did Philly give up the last 2 years in the East? What about Colorado when they got to the World Series? No way do we sell. I'm not saying let's buy, but you know this is a team that will have to learn to deal with hard times. It's called Diversity. These kids are doing it together. Don't give up hope because we are not 1st in June. This team can make the playoffs. All I ask is keep the faith. Look at the boys in Cleveland. Now that's a mess. There are so many fans for other teams that wish they had the core of youth we have. Also these kids need these vets around to learn. Don't put them in charge of a boat they are not ready to captain. The time is coming. Be patient.

Philly also had the kings of the choke job, a MONSTER lineup, and a pretty good pitching staff, and some guy named Lidge in the pen going 41 for 41. We currently have 1 of the 3. The lineup is beyond anemic and honestly if were going to be that anemic I'd rather we be finding out what guys like Ryan Hanigan, Drew Stubbs, Chris Dickerson, and other could do rather than continue to run Willy Tavares, AGon, and others out there knowing what they will bring maybe average to above average performances when theyre hot.

Is that throwing away the season? I'm being serious when I ask.

BLEEDS
06-22-2009, 01:20 PM
Outside of getting Taveras going or shipping him out, fixing the SS situation and 3rd base depending on EdE...we are looking darn good for 2010.


Yep, other than the entire middle defense (CF, SS), and the entire Left Side on Offense (LF, CF, 3B, SS), we are golden!
:rolleyes:

It would also be great is Jay Bruce could not only stay above Mendoza, but if he could also get his OPS to be higher than Chris Dickerson, that would be great!


All we need to do is pick up an average SS and we might just be having enough offense to give ourselves a shot at the playoffs.

I think Janish may be the answer to your "average SS", especially if he keeps up his stick. Definitely he can't be worse than AGON has been thus far.
I don't care what is SLG is, if he can hit .260 and OBP .325+, I'd let him hit 2nd until we get enough of our other big sticks in place.

Now, Wily T, that is another story. Pure Suckitude, as many of us projected.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

MBZags
06-22-2009, 02:12 PM
One of the hot rumors among the scouting community is that the Reds are dangling one of their veteran pitchers in an effort to get younger and reduce payroll. Arroyo, whose name has come up in the past, is earning $9.5 million this season as part of a two-year, $25 million deal. He will earn $11 million next season and has a $2 million buyout on an $11 million option in 2011. With starting pitching hard to find, the Reds could get a decent return.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/06/21/stumped_by_their_slumps/?page=4

NeilHamburger
06-25-2009, 12:09 AM
It seems I was alone in my thought.

Anyone any closer to agreeing with me?

Griffey012
06-25-2009, 12:16 AM
Yep, other than the entire middle defense (CF, SS), and the entire Left Side on Offense (LF, CF, 3B, SS), we are golden!
:rolleyes:

It would also be great is Jay Bruce could not only stay above Mendoza, but if he could also get his OPS to be higher than Chris Dickerson, that would be great!



I think Janish may be the answer to your "average SS", especially if he keeps up his stick. Definitely he can't be worse than AGON has been thus far.
I don't care what is SLG is, if he can hit .260 and OBP .325+, I'd let him hit 2nd until we get enough of our other big sticks in place.

Now, Wily T, that is another story. Pure Suckitude, as many of us projected.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I was implying that next year either fixing SS or 3b by trade or through FA and having the other position remain filled by someone like Ede. I believe next year either Frazier, Stubbs, or Heisey will be able to man left field even though Heisey and Stubbs are CF's. Ultimately WT gone and Stubbs in CF and Heisey or Frazier in left would be grand.

And actually CF is up the middle, not the left side : )

Griffey012
06-25-2009, 12:17 AM
It seems I was alone in my thought.

Anyone any closer to agreeing with me?

The Volquez news adds another wrinkle, but I still wouldn't ship out Cordero, Harang, or Phillps ( not sure if he was in your original list) unless we got a big time package. And I dont think any of the rest of the guys would bring in a return to make it worth trading them away.

travisgrimes
06-25-2009, 01:00 AM
I think Harang gets dealt for 2-3 major league ready top-level prospects and Arroyo gets dealt for whatever they can get for him. I'd be nice to see a package of Michael Taylor, Carlos Carrasco and a mid-level prospect for Harang.

flash
06-25-2009, 09:53 AM
I would really like to see the reds get Brandon Wood seeing that they will need a shortstop next year and they really need a bat now. I think it would probably take Bailey to get him, but perhaps the Angels could throw in one of their AA pitchers if the Reds sweeten the pot with say Rosales or some one from the minors to cover the position for Wood. The Reds could promote Carolina's Wood to Louisville replace him with a AA Angel and everything would fit.

travisgrimes
06-25-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm really not all impressed with Brandon Wood and wouldn't trade Homer Bailey to get him. I think we are now beyond trying to get a bat, I think now Walt will sell. You will see Harang, Arroyo, Nix, and Gomes almost definitely gone and look for him to shop Hernandez, Rhodes, Weathers, Taveras, and Burton. If Jocketty can get what I want for Harang (Michael Taylor, Carlos Carrasco, mid-level prospects from Phillies) and then be able to package some other guys in trades to bring back major league ready talent at SS, C, and/or CF then we will be set. I mean really look at the guys I listed what are we really losing? Yes Harang is a legit #1-#2 starter but everything else are veterans who could be traded and I'm not sure any of us would care. But packaged to the right team those players could bring back talented major league ready players.

Ghosts of 1990
06-25-2009, 06:32 PM
I think it might be time to see what we can get for Harang and Arroyo at this point, although taking 3 of the next 4 might make me change my stance a bit. We're just not hitting enough. Add to the offense, and find someone who can replace Harang or Arroyo (Bailey can replace one of them) and lets go from there.

Captain Hook
07-06-2009, 10:20 PM
A few weeks ago I avoided this thread because I was really on the fence.I still am a little but I'm sitting here watching this game after watching yesterday I can really see this team falling apart.I think I just fell off that fence.

Its looking more and more like there will be no move made for any kind of bat or to address our need at SS.Baker continues to run Taveras out there(even though it hasn't mattered lately)every single game and in the process puts together lineups unable to produce runs.He doesn't have the guns available for his style of managing(not really sure what his style is but thought I'd try to be nice in saying that he sucks) to work so he should be let loose.These moves imo should all be made.

Who goes:

1.Baker fired

2.Bronson traded regardless of how much of his contract we have to eat or who we could get for him.

3.Taveras DFA

4.Weathers and Rhodes should be traded-should have decent value

5.Trade Ramon Hernandez-should have moderate value

6.Yonder Alonso-we will not need a 1B for at least the next 10 years

7.Cordero-I like the guy but we simply can't afford to pay our closer so much money.What is the point in having him if we are not good enough to use him.Besides we have some young guys poised to take over the closer roll next season .


Who stays:

1.Votto,Bruce,Cueto,Baily,Volquez,Masset,Roenicke and any other decent prospect not already mentioned no questions asked imo(I understand that it might take some prospects to get the parts we need next year but don't what to go on about who is untouchable)

2.Harang-we need a veteran pitcher in the rotation the next few years and he will do.

3.Phillips-will be overpaid soon but should still be able to earn it.Fans like him and considering some of the money that could be freed up other places we could afford him.

4.EE-I know many said it last year and then said it again this year he is still young and has a ton of potential.He will be league average next season for very little money.

5.Dickerson-Once again just like EE would be league average at CF.This season I wasn't crazy about just giving him a starting job based on a late season call up but I'm much more comfortable about doing that now.

6.Other guys I would keep or attempt to sign unless another team just had to have then to give up a SS.These guys are nice back ups and relief pitchers that could fill rolls next season but not at all cost.-Gomes,Nix,JH Jr.,Dan R. Herrera,C Fisher

Needs between now and next season.

1.SS-gets the best possible available weather it be trade or free agency.This is the number 1 priority.

2.LF-We need an everyday guy that would make guys like Nix and Gomes obvious back ups.

3.A manager that is not a idiot.This is probably easier said then done and I have no decent suggestion at this point.

If most of these moves were done today I don't think the current teams chances are hurt much at all.It is possible to make some moves right now with next season in mind with out completely throwing in the towel.Doing these things may give that perception though.

Griffey012
07-06-2009, 11:26 PM
It was ugly alright, but in the spectrum of things this loss is actually a better loss than the one friday night because it was out of the division.

There is a quote that an old coach of mine always said to us, and im not sure where he got it from, but it was something along the lines of, "The beauty of baseball is that the sun is always going to come up tomorrow, and tomorrow is a new day, with a new game."

Not saying tonight should be ignored, but in reality this loss hurts us no more in the grand scheme than any other loss that puts an L in our column.

Captain Hook
07-07-2009, 01:05 AM
Very true.I'd like to see the Reds do none of what I've suggested,go on a run and prove me to be wrong in all that I've said.My honest opinion at this point is that we just don't have what it takes to do it this year.We are at least 2 or 3 very productive players away from being a legitimate playoff contender.I think its time to make moves with the future in mind.Its obvious that the Reds wont do this by taking on more payroll so I've made my case for what they should do.That was the point of the thread.

13 in hall
07-07-2009, 01:45 AM
Captain I agree with most of your post but except a few points.

1. Alonso has to stay he will be a run production machine.
I love Votto's game but if the Reds can move Perez
and Rose off positions then Joey can move. I wish I
could find the quote a scout said that at worst Alonso
would be Adrian Gonzales at best he would be Thome
when he was with the Indians. You just can't trade that
kind of production.

2. Harang has to be moved of all the guys he has the most
value. Now what he brings in return I don't know but
if your not going to win next year then he has to be
dealt.

3. Belive it or not I would keep Harriston. Weathers, and
Hernandez. Why because according to
MLBTraderumors.com they will all grade out as B type
free agents all which would net the Reds a compensation
picks in next years draft. I figure the player drafted
could be better than what they get in return for them
now. Next years draft is said to be deep.

4. Package Arroyo, and Rhodes with money to get
maximum return.

5. Cordero would bring a nice return but he would have to
waive his no trade clause and the Reds would have to
eat tons of money. Not happening is my guess.

I guess we could put all of our ideas out there but until
ownership decides to take risks and be bold then we will continue to look forward to a top ten draft pick. Might I ask where it is you see this team finishing? I say fighting with Houston for fourth place.

Captain Hook
07-07-2009, 01:53 AM
All fine thought's.Its time to start thinking this way and discussing the possibilities instead of wasting our time talking about guys that would take away from our future to get here.Not all teams that decide to sell automatically get worse.This current team can be improved by making moves with next year in mind.Addition by subtraction is the way to go.

Captain Hook
07-07-2009, 02:08 AM
Might I ask where it is you see this team finishing? I say fighting with Houston for fourth place.

We are better then the Pirates and Stros even though Houston will probably go on some stupid run playing miles above their heads like they do every season.I think one of the other top 3 teams will fall off the pace along with the Reds(my guess would be the Brew Crew) at some point making it a 3 team race for 3rd in the central.I'll say the Reds finish 1st in that race taking 3rd and just a little under .500.

I don't think the Reds a terrible but just aren't good enough to put the kind of second half together to take the division.Its sad that we are so close.We were probably doomed this preseason by a few small moves and the decision to to get a everyday LF or SS.No Taveras and a effort to get one of the 2 positions filled and then I'd be talking about us being 1 guy away.

travisgrimes
07-07-2009, 03:00 AM
Then you have to sell everything you have right now that won't be with you while you are rebuilding... these players are: Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Ramon Hernandez, Johnny Gomes, Laynce Nix, Willy Taveras, Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers and Edwin Encarnacion. Here are some trades that could be made....

1. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Los Angeles Dodgers for CF Matt Kemp, SS Devaris Gordon and RHP Josh Lindblom

2. Cincinnati Reds trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion and RP Carlos Fisher to the Detriot Tigers for RHP Ryan Perry and OF Wilkin Ramirez.

3. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo and RP Arthur Rhodes to the Texas Rangers for C Jarrod Saltalamacchia and LHP Martin Perez. (Reds eat half of Arroyo's contract)

4. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Laynce Nix to the Atlanta Braves for OF Cody Johnson and RHP Julio Teheran.

5. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Johnny Gomes and C Ramon Hernandez to the New York Mets for RHP Brad Holt and SS Ruben Tejada (Reds eat half of Hernandez's contract)

6. Not a trade but I think you DFA Weathers and Taveras

WHY THESE TRADES WORK?
Trade #1: LAD are in need big time of a starter who is good and eats innings, that would be Harang. The Reds need a legit CF who can play good D but also bring pop at the plate, that's Kemp. With the depth the LAD have in the outfield in the minors losing Kemp wouldn't be the end of the world. The Reds also get a speedy very good defensive SS in Gordon and a big power arm in Lindblom.

Trade #2: The Tigers badly need a young 3B to take Brandon Inge's place. Edwin is their guy because he has great potential in his bat and D is improving. They also get another middle-relief man to help out an average bullpen. The Reds get another power arm in Perry who is a closer in the making and a potentially big time power RH bat in LF with Ramirez.

Trade #3: The Rangers are in the race and will stay there all year with their offense. What they lack is one more solid pitcher which I think everyone outside of Cincinnati think Arroyo is. Along with eating some of Bronson's contract they also get a somewhat cheap shutdown lefty reliever. The Reds in return get the young power bat at catcher we have been looking for.

Trade #4: The Braves are simply looking for a bat with some pop to play LF and also don't want to spend a ton of money. Nix is perfect with his pop he has shown and his minimal contract. The Reds in return get a lefty power hitting RF in Cody Johnson (ranked best power bat in Braves system) and a young flamer thrower in 18 year old Julio Teheran.

Trade #5: Let's face it if the Mets want to stay in it they need a catcher and another bat in the outfield. In Gomes and Hernandez not only do they fill two voids but also get Hernandez half off. In return the Reds get another hard throwing starter in Holt and an up and coming young SS in Tejada.

2010 Lineup:
1. Devaris Gordon SS
2. Brandon Phillips 2B
3. Joey Votto 1B
4. Matt Kemp CF
5. Jay Bruce RF
6. Wilkin Ramirez LF
7. Juan Francisco 3B
8. Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
9. P

Bench:
C Ryan Hanigan
IF Todd Frazier
IF Danny Richar
OF Drew Stubbs
OF Cody Johnson

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Micah Owings
5. Matt Maloney/Zach Stewart/Travis Wood/Brad Holt/Darryl Thompson/Mike Leake/Josh Lindblom

Bullpen:
Ramon Ramirez
Pedro Viola
Daniel Ray Herrera
Jared Burton
Ryan Perry
Josh Roenicke SU
Nick Masset CL

Like I said if your going to sell might as well go all the way young, this ballclub may not win a whole lot but the lineup will have speed in almost every spot in the lineup and play hard. In 2-3 years if you keep them all intact maybe trade Yonder Alonso and prospects for a big time left handed starter then we could be talking division winners and WS contenders. I mean really you would only have 2 rookies in the lineup, 2 in the bullpen and maybe one in the rotation so it's not like these guys haven't played at this level before.

I KNOW WISHFUL THINKING BUT IT'S IDEAS DON'T SHOOT ME DOWN!

BEETTLEBUG
07-07-2009, 03:00 AM
I kind of agree about Baker, I don't know what Zoner fans out there think about promoting within but I think Rick Sweet could Win here he has been a Winner in Triple-AAA I know it is not te same but I think her should get shot.

Captain Hook
07-07-2009, 03:04 AM
I kind of agree about Baker, I don't know what Zoner fans out there think about promoting within but I think Rick Sweet could Win here he has been a Winner in Triple-AAA I know it is not te same but I think her should get shot.

I've herd his name thrown out there a lot.I don't know much about him other then he would be familiar with many of the young guys on the team and guys that might make the team next season.I haven't herd anything bad about him so it would be a good option to explore.

travisgrimes
07-07-2009, 03:04 AM
players seem to respect him, learn from him and love playing for him. sounds good sign me up on the RICK SWEET BANDWAGON

gilpdawg
07-07-2009, 03:22 AM
players seem to respect him, learn from him and love playing for him. sounds good sign me up on the RICK SWEET BANDWAGON

Dave Miley.

gilpdawg
07-07-2009, 03:25 AM
On the "why aren't they doing something" front, nobody is really looking to make any moves right now. Things won't pick up on that front until after the break. Happens like that every year.

nemesis
07-07-2009, 03:40 AM
Dave Miley.

Quote's like this are ignorant. Dave Miley and Rick Sweet have what in common besides they managed the Red's AAA team? Here is another name for ya Joe Maddon. They have VERY similar managerial styles. Not that we would get the same results... but anything might be better than Baker.

13 in hall
07-07-2009, 07:39 AM
When looking for a replacement for Baker I would try to steal Steve Liddle from the Minnesota Twins. He is there bench coach and as you see the Twins are in the hunt every year. Sure they have Mauer and Morneau but they have role players everywhere else and just play the game the right way.
Also I know I'm probably getting carried away but Votto could be a Mauer lite hitting 330-350 and Bruce in a couple of years fingers crossed could put up power numbers like Morneau. Add to this Alonso and a lagit right handed bat and the Reds might be on to something but they need solid coaching that will not put up with some of the nonsense that we see this club doing now. Oh well one can dream no.

Caveman Techie
07-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Quote's like this are ignorant. Dave Miley and Rick Sweet have what in common besides they managed the Red's AAA team? Here is another name for ya Joe Maddon. They have VERY similar managerial styles. Not that we would get the same results... but anything might be better than Baker.

The exact same things you said about Sweet were also said of Dave Miley. So really his quote was not ignorant, he was just pointing out the similarities. Not saying that if Sweet got an opportunity he would have the same results, but personally after Dusty I would love to have Larussa and Duncan (more Duncan though).

schmidty622
07-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Then you have to sell everything you have right now that won't be with you while you are rebuilding... these players are: Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Ramon Hernandez, Johnny Gomes, Laynce Nix, Willy Taveras, Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers and Edwin Encarnacion. Here are some trades that could be made....

1. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Los Angeles Dodgers for CF Matt Kemp, SS Devaris Gordon and RHP Josh Lindblom

2. Cincinnati Reds trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion and RP Carlos Fisher to the Detriot Tigers for RHP Ryan Perry and OF Wilkin Ramirez.

3. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo and RP Arthur Rhodes to the Texas Rangers for C Jarrod Saltalamacchia and LHP Martin Perez. (Reds eat half of Arroyo's contract)

4. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Laynce Nix to the Atlanta Braves for OF Cody Johnson and RHP Julio Teheran.

5. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Johnny Gomes and C Ramon Hernandez to the New York Mets for RHP Brad Holt and SS Ruben Tejada (Reds eat half of Hernandez's contract)

6. Not a trade but I think you DFA Weathers and Taveras

WHY THESE TRADES WORK?
Trade #1: LAD are in need big time of a starter who is good and eats innings, that would be Harang. The Reds need a legit CF who can play good D but also bring pop at the plate, that's Kemp. With the depth the LAD have in the outfield in the minors losing Kemp wouldn't be the end of the world. The Reds also get a speedy very good defensive SS in Gordon and a big power arm in Lindblom.

Trade #2: The Tigers badly need a young 3B to take Brandon Inge's place. Edwin is their guy because he has great potential in his bat and D is improving. They also get another middle-relief man to help out an average bullpen. The Reds get another power arm in Perry who is a closer in the making and a potentially big time power RH bat in LF with Ramirez.

Trade #3: The Rangers are in the race and will stay there all year with their offense. What they lack is one more solid pitcher which I think everyone outside of Cincinnati think Arroyo is. Along with eating some of Bronson's contract they also get a somewhat cheap shutdown lefty reliever. The Reds in return get the young power bat at catcher we have been looking for.

Trade #4: The Braves are simply looking for a bat with some pop to play LF and also don't want to spend a ton of money. Nix is perfect with his pop he has shown and his minimal contract. The Reds in return get a lefty power hitting RF in Cody Johnson (ranked best power bat in Braves system) and a young flamer thrower in 18 year old Julio Teheran.

Trade #5: Let's face it if the Mets want to stay in it they need a catcher and another bat in the outfield. In Gomes and Hernandez not only do they fill two voids but also get Hernandez half off. In return the Reds get another hard throwing starter in Holt and an up and coming young SS in Tejada.

2010 Lineup:
1. Devaris Gordon SS
2. Brandon Phillips 2B
3. Joey Votto 1B
4. Matt Kemp CF
5. Jay Bruce RF
6. Wilkin Ramirez LF
7. Juan Francisco 3B
8. Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
9. P

Bench:
C Ryan Hanigan
IF Todd Frazier
IF Danny Richar
OF Drew Stubbs
OF Cody Johnson

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Micah Owings
5. Matt Maloney/Zach Stewart/Travis Wood/Brad Holt/Darryl Thompson/Mike Leake/Josh Lindblom

Bullpen:
Ramon Ramirez
Pedro Viola
Daniel Ray Herrera
Jared Burton
Ryan Perry
Josh Roenicke SU
Nick Masset CL

Like I said if your going to sell might as well go all the way young, this ballclub may not win a whole lot but the lineup will have speed in almost every spot in the lineup and play hard. In 2-3 years if you keep them all intact maybe trade Yonder Alonso and prospects for a big time left handed starter then we could be talking division winners and WS contenders. I mean really you would only have 2 rookies in the lineup, 2 in the bullpen and maybe one in the rotation so it's not like these guys haven't played at this level before.

I KNOW WISHFUL THINKING BUT IT'S IDEAS DON'T SHOOT ME DOWN!

Extra Extra!!! REDS TRADE EXPENSIVE AND FOR THE MOST PART AVERAGE PLAYERS!!! GET CHEAP HIGHLY REGARDED TALENT IN RETURN!!!

Slyder
07-07-2009, 01:26 PM
Dave Miley.

Dave Miley got kneecapped by Ownership halfway in by ownership and the players knew it and walked all over him. Different team now, its mostly a younger team most of whom played for him at Louisville.

gilpdawg
07-07-2009, 10:54 PM
This team just doesn't have the horses to be any better than .500 or so over the long haul. Rick Sweet won't change that. Managers only swing 3 or 4 games per year anyway. But if we're gonna sell we gotta really sell. Really selling would alienate most of the fanbase who aren't smart enough to figure out that it's for the best. I'm talking everybody but Votto, Bruce, and Volquez should be attempted to be flipped. They don't have the cajones to do something like that so we'll get the same passive-aggressive selling we've had every year. But we have to wait until closer to the deadline. It's too soon right now, nobody is desperate enough yet. It's rare that you get a big deal like the CC deal last year before the deadline.

JayBruce
07-07-2009, 11:34 PM
Then you have to sell everything you have right now that won't be with you while you are rebuilding... these players are: Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Ramon Hernandez, Johnny Gomes, Laynce Nix, Willy Taveras, Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers and Edwin Encarnacion. Here are some trades that could be made....

1. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Los Angeles Dodgers for CF Matt Kemp, SS Devaris Gordon and RHP Josh Lindblom

2. Cincinnati Reds trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion and RP Carlos Fisher to the Detriot Tigers for RHP Ryan Perry and OF Wilkin Ramirez.

3. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo and RP Arthur Rhodes to the Texas Rangers for C Jarrod Saltalamacchia and LHP Martin Perez. (Reds eat half of Arroyo's contract)

4. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Laynce Nix to the Atlanta Braves for OF Cody Johnson and RHP Julio Teheran.

5. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Johnny Gomes and C Ramon Hernandez to the New York Mets for RHP Brad Holt and SS Ruben Tejada (Reds eat half of Hernandez's contract)

6. Not a trade but I think you DFA Weathers and Taveras

WHY THESE TRADES WORK?
Trade #1: LAD are in need big time of a starter who is good and eats innings, that would be Harang. The Reds need a legit CF who can play good D but also bring pop at the plate, that's Kemp. With the depth the LAD have in the outfield in the minors losing Kemp wouldn't be the end of the world. The Reds also get a speedy very good defensive SS in Gordon and a big power arm in Lindblom.

Trade #2: The Tigers badly need a young 3B to take Brandon Inge's place. Edwin is their guy because he has great potential in his bat and D is improving. They also get another middle-relief man to help out an average bullpen. The Reds get another power arm in Perry who is a closer in the making and a potentially big time power RH bat in LF with Ramirez.

Trade #3: The Rangers are in the race and will stay there all year with their offense. What they lack is one more solid pitcher which I think everyone outside of Cincinnati think Arroyo is. Along with eating some of Bronson's contract they also get a somewhat cheap shutdown lefty reliever. The Reds in return get the young power bat at catcher we have been looking for.

Trade #4: The Braves are simply looking for a bat with some pop to play LF and also don't want to spend a ton of money. Nix is perfect with his pop he has shown and his minimal contract. The Reds in return get a lefty power hitting RF in Cody Johnson (ranked best power bat in Braves system) and a young flamer thrower in 18 year old Julio Teheran.

Trade #5: Let's face it if the Mets want to stay in it they need a catcher and another bat in the outfield. In Gomes and Hernandez not only do they fill two voids but also get Hernandez half off. In return the Reds get another hard throwing starter in Holt and an up and coming young SS in Tejada.

2010 Lineup:
1. Devaris Gordon SS
2. Brandon Phillips 2B
3. Joey Votto 1B
4. Matt Kemp CF
5. Jay Bruce RF
6. Wilkin Ramirez LF
7. Juan Francisco 3B
8. Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
9. P

Bench:
C Ryan Hanigan
IF Todd Frazier
IF Danny Richar
OF Drew Stubbs
OF Cody Johnson

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Micah Owings
5. Matt Maloney/Zach Stewart/Travis Wood/Brad Holt/Darryl Thompson/Mike Leake/Josh Lindblom

Bullpen:
Ramon Ramirez
Pedro Viola
Daniel Ray Herrera
Jared Burton
Ryan Perry
Josh Roenicke SU
Nick Masset CL

Like I said if your going to sell might as well go all the way young, this ballclub may not win a whole lot but the lineup will have speed in almost every spot in the lineup and play hard. In 2-3 years if you keep them all intact maybe trade Yonder Alonso and prospects for a big time left handed starter then we could be talking division winners and WS contenders. I mean really you would only have 2 rookies in the lineup, 2 in the bullpen and maybe one in the rotation so it's not like these guys haven't played at this level before.

I KNOW WISHFUL THINKING BUT IT'S IDEAS DON'T SHOOT ME DOWN!

I hate to pee in your cheerios, but I just can't resist...

You can't pawn off crap and expect to get anything in return. Why would Nix and Gomes net ANYTHING of value? You really think a package built around LaYnce Nix is going to get you two of the Braves top prospects? LMAO

The Harang trade is absurd. I'm not sure they would deal Kemp for Harang straight up, let alone two top-10 prospects added in. Bronson isn't going anywhere, either. By his own admission, he's damaged goods. Even if you pick up some salary, he isn't going to bring a player like Saltalamacchia, as much as the Rangers may not need him. This is the same team that fleeced the Braves in the Texiera trade...they're not dumb. The EdE thing is an OK idea, but I'd rather put Votto in left and stick Yonder at 1st. Also, I have to laugh at the notion that EdE is "improving" at 3rd. Dude sucked 3 years ago, he sucks today, and he'll suck 3 years from now. Any team trading for him knows exactly what it's getting: a decent bat with a terrible glove and a low baseball IQ.

Good effort, though.

travisgrimes
07-08-2009, 12:07 AM
Ok your wrong on many things:

#1: The Nix trade isn't bringing back top prospects but rather guys who aren't even rated in the top 10 in the Braves system and prolly wouldn't be top 15 or 20.

#2: Harang is definitely worth Kemp +2 prospects... the guy is still a #2-#3 SP in this league and may be the best available pitcher at the deadline who isn't on the DL. And the Dodgers NEED and WANT another starter and depth at SS and CF in the minors allows them to make this move.

#3: The Mets are desperate and Hernandez will start for them and Gomes will make spot starts. The guys we get in the trade aren't world beaters. The two guys are a future setup man and most likely a backup SS at the major league level.

#4: EdE is improved at third the only thing he needs to work on are his throws. The guy has shown in the past he can hit .270 20 HRs and 70 RBIs and with that production and also a very solid young reliever in Fisher that trade is more than possible.

#5: Last but not least, Arroyo may not have value here but he certainly does in other places. With the lack of quality pitchers on the market you will get more than usual if you eat some of his contract. Once again Jarrod Saltalamacchia has no place to play with the Rangers. He won't be their starting catcher because they like Teagarden too much, can't DH because Chris Davis and Hank Blalock DH so what's their use for him.

kfm
07-08-2009, 12:37 AM
Then you have to sell everything you have right now that won't be with you while you are rebuilding... these players are: Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Ramon Hernandez, Johnny Gomes, Laynce Nix, Willy Taveras, Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers and Edwin Encarnacion. Here are some trades that could be made....

1. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Aaron Harang to the Los Angeles Dodgers for CF Matt Kemp, SS Devaris Gordon and RHP Josh Lindblom

2. Cincinnati Reds trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion and RP Carlos Fisher to the Detriot Tigers for RHP Ryan Perry and OF Wilkin Ramirez.

3. Cincinnati Reds trade SP Bronson Arroyo and RP Arthur Rhodes to the Texas Rangers for C Jarrod Saltalamacchia and LHP Martin Perez. (Reds eat half of Arroyo's contract)

4. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Laynce Nix to the Atlanta Braves for OF Cody Johnson and RHP Julio Teheran.

5. Cincinnati Reds trade OF Johnny Gomes and C Ramon Hernandez to the New York Mets for RHP Brad Holt and SS Ruben Tejada (Reds eat half of Hernandez's contract)

6. Not a trade but I think you DFA Weathers and Taveras

WHY THESE TRADES WORK?
Trade #1: LAD are in need big time of a starter who is good and eats innings, that would be Harang. The Reds need a legit CF who can play good D but also bring pop at the plate, that's Kemp. With the depth the LAD have in the outfield in the minors losing Kemp wouldn't be the end of the world. The Reds also get a speedy very good defensive SS in Gordon and a big power arm in Lindblom.

Trade #2: The Tigers badly need a young 3B to take Brandon Inge's place. Edwin is their guy because he has great potential in his bat and D is improving. They also get another middle-relief man to help out an average bullpen. The Reds get another power arm in Perry who is a closer in the making and a potentially big time power RH bat in LF with Ramirez.

Trade #3: The Rangers are in the race and will stay there all year with their offense. What they lack is one more solid pitcher which I think everyone outside of Cincinnati think Arroyo is. Along with eating some of Bronson's contract they also get a somewhat cheap shutdown lefty reliever. The Reds in return get the young power bat at catcher we have been looking for.

Trade #4: The Braves are simply looking for a bat with some pop to play LF and also don't want to spend a ton of money. Nix is perfect with his pop he has shown and his minimal contract. The Reds in return get a lefty power hitting RF in Cody Johnson (ranked best power bat in Braves system) and a young flamer thrower in 18 year old Julio Teheran.

Trade #5: Let's face it if the Mets want to stay in it they need a catcher and another bat in the outfield. In Gomes and Hernandez not only do they fill two voids but also get Hernandez half off. In return the Reds get another hard throwing starter in Holt and an up and coming young SS in Tejada.

2010 Lineup:
1. Devaris Gordon SS
2. Brandon Phillips 2B
3. Joey Votto 1B
4. Matt Kemp CF
5. Jay Bruce RF
6. Wilkin Ramirez LF
7. Juan Francisco 3B
8. Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
9. P

Bench:
C Ryan Hanigan
IF Todd Frazier
IF Danny Richar
OF Drew Stubbs
OF Cody Johnson

Rotation:
1. Johnny Cueto
2. Edinson Volquez
3. Homer Bailey
4. Micah Owings
5. Matt Maloney/Zach Stewart/Travis Wood/Brad Holt/Darryl Thompson/Mike Leake/Josh Lindblom

Bullpen:
Ramon Ramirez
Pedro Viola
Daniel Ray Herrera
Jared Burton
Ryan Perry
Josh Roenicke SU
Nick Masset CL

Like I said if your going to sell might as well go all the way young, this ballclub may not win a whole lot but the lineup will have speed in almost every spot in the lineup and play hard. In 2-3 years if you keep them all intact maybe trade Yonder Alonso and prospects for a big time left handed starter then we could be talking division winners and WS contenders. I mean really you would only have 2 rookies in the lineup, 2 in the bullpen and maybe one in the rotation so it's not like these guys haven't played at this level before.

I KNOW WISHFUL THINKING BUT IT'S IDEAS DON'T SHOOT ME DOWN!

I don't think they should throw in the towel once again and start over, but why would you DFA Weathers. Whatever people may think of him, his numbers and his production are outstanding. With the state of bullpens you could trade Weathers and get something of value for him or worst case scnenario you keep a guy who the league is batting under .200 against who has been one of the most dependable relief arms in the league for several years. IF you DFA him you either have to trade him or release him and then you are just paying him so he can go pitch, and pitch well, for some other team. I agree with the Tavares decision.

JayBruce
07-08-2009, 12:43 AM
Ok your wrong on many things:

#1: The Nix trade isn't bringing back top prospects but rather guys who aren't even rated in the top 10 in the Braves system and prolly wouldn't be top 15 or 20.

Okay, let me re-phrase. Laynce Nix is not going to net "legit" prospects. IE, guys who could potentially have an impact some day. Johnson has Adam Dunn-like power, if nothing else. The pitcher apparently was a top Latin American signing a few years ago, and has considerable upside. C'mon, it's Laynce Nix, dude. Laynce Nix.

#2: Harang is definitely worth Kemp +2 prospects... the guy is still a #2-#3 SP in this league and may be the best available pitcher at the deadline who isn't on the DL. And the Dodgers NEED and WANT another starter and depth at SS and CF in the minors allows them to make this move.


No. Gordon might be their top prospect after this season, and Furcal isn't getting any younger. They might give up DeJesus (less upside, but much better glove, and also coming off an injury), but I doubt Gordon is going anywhere. And where is the depth in CF? They don't have any legit prospects in the minor leagues, unless Gordon is moved there eventually. Pierre is old and terrible on defense. Kemp is 24 years old, a .300 hitter, 30/30 potential, great glove, great arm and if he isn't an All-Star this year, he will be in the future. He and Either are the future of that team.

#3: The Mets are desperate and Hernandez will start for them and Gomes will make spot starts. The guys we get in the trade aren't world beaters. The two guys are a future setup man and most likely a backup SS at the major league level.

So we essentially get nothing in return for a solid major league catcher, AND we have to eat his contract? Where do I sign?

#4: EdE is improved at third the only thing he needs to work on are his throws. The guy has shown in the past he can hit .270 20 HRs and 70 RBIs and with that production and also a very solid young reliever in Fisher that trade is more than possible.


EdE has needed to improve on his throws since he came up. What makes you think he will suddenly figure it out? He is what he is. And I didn't say your trade was bad, just un-necessary. Yonder's bat > Ramirez's bat

#5: Last but not least, Arroyo may not have value here but he certainly does in other places. With the lack of quality pitchers on the market you will get more than usual if you eat some of his contract. Once again Jarrod Saltalamacchia has no place to play with the Rangers. He won't be their starting catcher because they like Teagarden too much, can't DH because Chris Davis and Hank Blalock DH so what's their use for him.

Saltalamacchia has value, too. The Rangers aren't gonna deal him for the first team who comes calling with a major league arm, especially a guy who's hurt. If he keeps getting slammed every 5th day, you can forget about it. If the Rangers want to deal to Salty for a pitcher, they can probably do better than the 2009 version of Bronson Arroyo.