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GIDP
06-22-2009, 02:16 PM
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/06/21/stumped_by_their_slumps/?page=4


2. Bronson Arroyo, RHP, Reds: One of the hot rumors among the scouting community is that the Reds are dangling one of their veteran pitchers in an effort to get younger and reduce payroll. Arroyo, whose name has come up in the past, is earning $9.5 million this season as part of a two-year, $25 million deal. He will earn $11 million next season and has a $2 million buyout on an $11 million option in 2011. With starting pitching hard to find, the Reds could get a decent return.

I certainly feel that its likely to happen but I dont see them getting much back especially if they dont eat half or more of that contract.

Phillies, Braves, and Dodgers could probably all be interested if I were to guess. Angels are probably another team.

BLEEDS
06-22-2009, 02:32 PM
With Bailey's new splitter, Leake theoretically ready to start games in September (if he didn't have tendinitis and should be shut down for the rest of the year IMPO), I think this is a move we can actually sustain.

Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Owings to finish this year out.

Volquez, Cueto, Leake, Bailey, Owings could be your 2010 starters.

IF we were able to actually spend that money on some offense, it could actually increase our team overall. Unlike last years' payroll dump of veterans that basically netted us nothing.

Definitely a good move monetarily from a purely stuffing the owners pockets standpoint.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

OesterPoster
06-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Unlike last years' payroll dump of veterans that basically netted us nothing.

-BLEEDS

Huh? Dallas Buck, Nick Masset, and Owings are all useful components.

BLEEDS
06-22-2009, 02:41 PM
Huh? Dallas Buck, Nick Masset, and Owings are all useful components.

Meant from the offensive side - unless you count Owings I guess...

If we could trade Arroyo for Rios, that would be a good day; throw in a DL/Designated for Assignment of one Wily T, and it goes from good to great!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

OesterPoster
06-22-2009, 02:51 PM
I like the Phillies prospects the most. Give me Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, or Lou Marson.

BLEEDS
06-22-2009, 02:55 PM
OF or 3B-man please!!

There's a lot of pitching-starved teams out there right now, we should be in a position to cash in on what is now a huge asset.

Arroyo could benefit from a change of scenery methinks, he is becoming very Kyle-Loshish with his consistency.
9, 0, 5, 1, 6, 3

As much as it pains me to give away "average ML pitching" we are actually at a surplus at this point, and our offense is beyond pathetic.

Harang seems to have found his groove since last year, and the young guys seem to be developing well, Cueto for sure although Volquez concerns me a bit with the injury/dead arm/WBC crap.

I'd pull the trigger on a good deal for Arroyo if it includes some offense in return.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

mroby85
06-22-2009, 02:56 PM
If they make this trade without bringing back some form of offense than can help right now, I will be irate! I'm so sick of this team being more concerned about money than winning. I'm sick of trades that are made because of payroll instead of to make this team better. It's completely how they make their decisions not based on baseball. It's not like their payroll is through the roof to where they can't afford it. In fact, they should be able to pay for the bat they need, along with what they already have. They're at a point right now that they aren't even paying their best players, (Cueto, Volquez, Bruce, Votto) Which is the perfect time for a small market team to make their run if they're going to make one. These are the times it just makes you want to get mlb league pass and follow the Yankees, a team that actually tries.

Krawhitham
06-22-2009, 03:01 PM
With Bailey's new splitter, Leake theoretically ready to start games in September (if he didn't have tendinitis and should be shut down for the rest of the year IMPO), I think this is a move we can actually sustain.



Bailey is making outs on pitches out of the zone that AAA hitters are offering at. Those same pitches will be taken by MLB hitters and he will walk 6-10 per game like always.

You want Leake starting in the majors by September? Are you nuts?

If they trade Arroyo it better not be as a salary dumb but to bring a big bat in to help this team

DTCromer
06-22-2009, 03:06 PM
I'd rather give away Harang.

BLEEDS
06-22-2009, 03:10 PM
Bailey is making outs on pitches out of the zone that AAA hitters are offering at. Those same pitches will be taken by MLB hitters and he will walk 6-10 per game like always.


Don't be so sure about that. It looks like a fastball - well, mostly because it IS - so they have to respect the 96 MPH heat. They won't be taken on 2 strike counts you can be sure of that.



You want Leake starting in the majors by September? Are you nuts?


I didn't say I wanted him to, I said THEORETICALLY he could start in September, he's that good and he's got MLB quality stuff. Many other guys have done it, been drafted and started in September. Someone even won a World Series recently with one of these guys.

The word on Leake is he is probably a #3 Starter right now. With that, you could get rid of a #3/#4 starter due $11M next year, that's what I'm saying.

If he didn't have tendinitis, he could have started for us in September.



If they trade Arroyo it better not be as a salary dumb but to bring a big bat in to help this team

We totally agree here.
We dumped Dunn and to a lesser extent KGJ last year.

Masset is probably a good/even return for a 40 yo KGJ.
Owings is nowhere near an even return for Dunn.

We lost a TON of offense, we need to replace it.
This would be the ideal time to do it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Rockermann
06-22-2009, 04:13 PM
I don't think Arroyo is going anywhere until the Reds are completely certain of Volquez's health.

bgwilly31
06-22-2009, 04:14 PM
If they make this trade without bringing back some form of offense than can help right now, I will be irate! I'm so sick of this team being more concerned about money than winning. I'm sick of trades that are made because of payroll instead of to make this team better. It's completely how they make their decisions not based on baseball. It's not like their payroll is through the roof to where they can't afford it. In fact, they should be able to pay for the bat they need, along with what they already have. They're at a point right now that they aren't even paying their best players, (Cueto, Volquez, Bruce, Votto) Which is the perfect time for a small market team to make their run if they're going to make one. These are the times it just makes you want to get mlb league pass and follow the Yankees, a team that actually tries.


Welcome to the reds.

Arroyo at this point is our best performing pitcher.

And yes you are absolutely right with the cueto, volquez, votto thing.

I dont agree with bruce however.

But im sure once cueto, votto, EV start demanding money they will be goners as well.

Bruce on the other hand. He will be a red for life. And probably never live up to expectations.

Newman4
06-22-2009, 04:43 PM
With Bailey's new splitter, Leake theoretically ready to start games in September (if he didn't have tendinitis and should be shut down for the rest of the year IMPO), I think this is a move we can actually sustain.

Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Owings to finish this year out.

Volquez, Cueto, Leake, Bailey, Owings could be your 2010 starters.

IF we were able to actually spend that money on some offense, it could actually increase our team overall. Unlike last years' payroll dump of veterans that basically netted us nothing.

Definitely a good move monetarily from a purely stuffing the owners pockets standpoint.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I am almost entirely on board with Bleeds on this one. Good post.

Captain Hook
06-22-2009, 05:11 PM
I really hope they hang on to Arroyo.He and Harang are about as good as we can afford for veteran starter imo.I really think that the team should be able to make a trade for a good bat at 3rd or OF without giving up any of the important peaces of the big league team.I don't know this but I think they should have the money.They definitly have the prospects.

Rockermann
06-22-2009, 05:31 PM
AAAA Bailey and Leake for starters next year? That's mighty wishful thinking and a BIG assumption. Neither have proved anything in the bigs yet (Leake understandably). Plus, we don't know about Volquez's health. I doubt they will be getting rid of Arroyo until a few of those questions have been answered.

BluegrassRedleg
06-22-2009, 07:00 PM
With pitching as scarce as it is, he can net quite a bit if the Reds are smart and patient. His contract isn't going to be viewed the same way by the buyers.

GIDP
06-22-2009, 07:14 PM
Could it be that the Reds would try to dump arroyos money to then trade for a bat? A swapping of contracts in a way...

travisgrimes
06-22-2009, 10:45 PM
i could see a bronson arroyo for michael taylor straight up or maybe the phillies add in a prospect

Ghosts of 1990
06-22-2009, 10:56 PM
Better sell high on Arroyo and try to see if your patience and investment in time in Bailey was worth it. That doesn't mean 6 starts. or 4 starts. It means a year and a half in the rotation, maybe longer as long as he's healthy.

If we can get anything useful for Arroyo, do it. He's not going to be able to smoke and mirrors them to death forever. Trust me on this: sell high on Arroyo.

travisgrimes
06-22-2009, 10:58 PM
i know for a fact harang is prolly the best pitcher on the market should he be placed there because peavy is down for at least another month and a half and arroyo is top 7 best available so two top prospects shouldnt be too much for him as of now

Newport Red
06-22-2009, 11:33 PM
At this point, Arroyo won't bring back much in terms of talent. If traded now, it would be strictly a salary dump.

He's clearly a #5 pitcher on our staff, and it isn't really close. Through 14 starts, Arroyo has an ERA of 5.16 and 89 innings. Through 12 starts, Owings has an ERA of 4.5 and 72 innings. National League average ERA is 4.26. Arroyo is approaching a full run above league average. We can't even use his value as an innings eater this year on the Reds' staff as he averages only one extra out per start over Owings.

He'll really need to pitch lights out up to the trade deadline to net the Reds anything of value in terms of talent.

GIDP
06-22-2009, 11:37 PM
Arroyo has a couple outings a year that are compeltely terrible. Then he goes on an equally amazing streak though.

At the end of the year he gives you a decent ERA and a lot of innings. Its valuable.

Newport Red
06-22-2009, 11:51 PM
Arroyo has a couple outings a year that are compeltely terrible. Then he goes on an equally amazing streak though.

At the end of the year he gives you a decent ERA and a lot of innings. Its valuable.

True if you are selling Arroyo. What if you are buying.

flash
06-23-2009, 12:22 AM
i could see a bronson arroyo for michael taylor straight up or maybe the phillies add in a prospect

There is no way the Phillies would go for that deal. Have you seen his stats? The guy has future superstar written all over him. And his size. he is as big as Adam Dunn, only 30 pounds lighter and probably twice as fast.

REDblooded
06-23-2009, 01:17 AM
There is no way the Phillies would go for that deal. Have you seen his stats? The guy has future superstar written all over him. And his size. he is as big as Adam Dunn, only 30 pounds lighter and probably twice as fast.

I could see an Arroyo/Francisco package being pretty appealing....

Krawhitham
06-23-2009, 01:43 AM
I could see an Arroyo/Francisco package being pretty appealing....

Arroyo 9.5 mill this season 11 next (2 bill buy out for 2012)

Francisco 12 mill this season and 12 each the next 2

58.5 million over 3 seasons would only be appealing to the Yankees

travisgrimes
06-23-2009, 01:56 AM
i think he means juan francisco... i think if the phillies aren't willing to give one good prospect for a proven #4 starter in this league then they are mentally ill.... if they want harang they will have to give up at least two GREAT prospects and one good one because there isnt much out there right now better than Harang or even Arroyo

REDblooded
06-23-2009, 09:12 AM
Arroyo 9.5 mill this season 11 next (2 bill buy out for 2012)

Francisco 12 mill this season and 12 each the next 2

58.5 million over 3 seasons would only be appealing to the Yankees

JUAN....

Newman4
06-23-2009, 12:14 PM
Not to sound like a broken record, but how about Arroyo for Josh Willingham? Arroyo would be the ace in that mess. Willingham is stuck behind Dunn, Kearns and Dukes with Lasting Milledge at AAA.

Pony Boy
06-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Not to sound like a broken record, but how about Arroyo for Josh Willingham? Arroyo would be the ace in that mess. Willingham is stuck behind Dunn, Kearns and Dukes with Lasting Milledge at AAA.

I dont think the Nats are looking to add payroll in the middle of the season.

BLEEDS
06-23-2009, 02:18 PM
Not to sound like a broken record, but how about Arroyo for Josh Willingham? Arroyo would be the ace in that mess. Willingham is stuck behind Dunn, Kearns and Dukes with Lasting Milledge at AAA.

How about Arroyo for Dunn?

:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
06-23-2009, 02:19 PM
we want to get better not worse.

BLEEDS
06-23-2009, 02:37 PM
we want to get better not worse.

You're right, what would we do with a guy who OPS is .931.

We have a leadoff and #2 hitters who's OPS is barely higher than this guys SLG.

I mean seriously, we have FOUR (4) guys Starting that are batting under .225 and two other starters batting under .250.

NAH, we don't need any offense. :rolleyes:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

CySeymour
06-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Well, let's not get back into the Adam Dunn thing...I think we can all agree thats' been rehashed more than it should have.

But another thing, at some point this team will have to decide who will be playing shortstop next year and beyond.

GIDP
06-23-2009, 02:44 PM
You're right, what would we do with a guy who OPS is .931.

We have a leadoff and #2 hitters who's OPS is barely higher than this guys SLG.

I mean seriously, we have FOUR (4) guys Starting that are batting under .225 and two other starters batting under .250.

NAH, we don't need any offense. :rolleyes:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

How would replacing a solid defensive LF putting up slightly lesser offensive numbers improve us that much?

Not to mention Dunn is falling back down to normal after his hot start.

bounty37h
06-23-2009, 03:58 PM
:sits back, grabs bag of chips, and watches this rerun again.

BLEEDS
06-23-2009, 04:15 PM
Well, let's not get back into the Adam Dunn thing...I think we can all agree thats' been rehashed more than it should have.

But another thing, at some point this team will have to decide who will be playing shortstop next year and beyond.

Agreed, just saying I'd rather trade for Dunn than Willingham from the Generals.


How would replacing a solid defensive LF putting up slightly lesser offensive numbers improve us that much?

Not to mention Dunn is falling back down to normal after his hot start.

Not sure what you think "SOLID" defense is, and what "Slightly lesser offensive" numbers are.
Our hodg-podge of LF-ers hasn't put much offense on the board, let alone anything approaching .900 OPS, I doubt it's even .750, and wouldn't be shocked if overall it was barely over or even under .700

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
06-23-2009, 04:39 PM
Gomes and Nix are OPSing a combined .866.

I consider Dunn terrible defense and Nix pretty above average.

Newman4
06-23-2009, 05:39 PM
How about Arroyo for Dunn?

:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Willingham hits lefties better and makes 7 million less.

BLEEDS
06-23-2009, 06:12 PM
Gomes and Nix are OPSing a combined .866.


Not in LF they aren't.
You're forgetting all the AB's from McDonald, JHJ, Dickerson, etc... who are nowhere near that, somewhere around .400 for JHJ and LittleMac, and Dick is .720-ish...



PEACE

-BLEEDS

REDblooded
06-23-2009, 06:15 PM
Talking about Dunn should be a 3 day suspension at this point... He's gone. He's not coming back, and this thread has been hijacked with stupidity.

GIDP
06-23-2009, 06:22 PM
Not in LF they aren't.
You're forgetting all the AB's from McDonald, JHJ, Dickerson, etc... who are nowhere near that, somewhere around .400 for JHJ and LittleMac, and Dick is .720-ish...



PEACE

-BLEEDS

I guess you want to replace Cordero, Weathers, and Rhodes because some of the other guys suck in the bullpen.

Just because a couple guys are took the stats down it doesnt take away what the LF platoon is right now.

Of course Dusty is the manager so he wouldnt play the right platoon most likely if given the choices. Still adding Dunn over the group we do have isnt going to be an upgrade that much and especially if its Nix and Gomes.

Also BTW Nix has played all but 6 games in LF. So I guess you want to argue that also.

Kingspoint
06-23-2009, 06:30 PM
OF or 3B-man please!!

There's a lot of pitching-starved teams out there right now, we should be in a position to cash in on what is now a huge asset.

Arroyo could benefit from a change of scenery methinks, he is becoming very Kyle-Loshish with his consistency.
9, 0, 5, 1, 6, 3

As much as it pains me to give away "average ML pitching" we are actually at a surplus at this point, and our offense is beyond pathetic.

Harang seems to have found his groove since last year, and the young guys seem to be developing well, Cueto for sure although Volquez concerns me a bit with the injury/dead arm/WBC crap.

I'd pull the trigger on a good deal for Arroyo if it includes some offense in return.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I feel great about our 3rd Basemen for the next 7 years.

I'll take more pitching. Trade old pitching for young pitching.

Kingspoint
06-23-2009, 06:37 PM
You're right, what would we do with a guy who OPS is .931.

We have a leadoff and #2 hitters who's OPS is barely higher than this guys SLG.



If Dusty put Dickerson and Hanigan at 1-2, that wouldn't be a problem.

Rockermann
06-24-2009, 05:10 PM
As I posted, it was too early to be 'dangling Arroyo'... From a JohnFay tweet:

Volquez is pushed back after MRI finds inflammation. Return before All Star break unlikely.

BLEEDS
06-24-2009, 06:44 PM
If Dusty put Dickerson and Hanigan at 1-2, that wouldn't be a problem.

Somehow, I don't see Hanigan as a viable #2 hitter. Great #7 or #8, but he's not a TOL type of hitter.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TC81190
06-24-2009, 06:47 PM
We need Arroyo, IMO. Starting pitching depth is important, we're standing pretty good right now in that regard, but he's a key piece to that.

winks
06-24-2009, 07:32 PM
I hope they dont get rid of Arroyo. He pitches well and does the little things at the plate. And unlike last year, he dont give up runs when the O puts a few up. Ex. Harang

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 08:50 PM
Somehow, I don't see Hanigan as a viable #2 hitter. Great #7 or #8, but he's not a TOL type of hitter.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Under normal circumstances, perhaps not. But under these circumstances, when so many players are hitting under .150 recently, or hitting like a pitcher, then give the most at-bats to the hottest and most consistent player all season on the team in Hanigan.

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 08:50 PM
I hope they dont get rid of Arroyo. He pitches well and does the little things at the plate. And unlike last year, he dont give up runs when the O puts a few up.

18 pitches....5 Runs given up tonight.

winks
06-24-2009, 09:23 PM
It seems like Toronto is his bad place. I thought it humorous that he said before the game he couldnt do any worse than last year. He should settle down. Hopefully the Reds can claw their way back in.

Newman4
06-24-2009, 09:44 PM
18 pitches....5 Runs given up tonight.

Please keep dangling Walt.

Ghosts of 1990
06-24-2009, 09:46 PM
It seems like Toronto is his bad place. I thought it humorous that he said before the game he couldnt do any worse than last year. He should settle down. Hopefully the Reds can claw their way back in.

it seems like toronto is our bad place.

BLEEDS
06-24-2009, 10:41 PM
Please keep dangling Walt.

Now there's an interesting idea!

What do you think we can get for Walt?

Yeah, with 2 hits and 2 runs, does it matter if your pitcher gives up 3 or 13?!?!

This offense is pathetic.
Nix showing why he is NOT an everyday player as he regresses to the mean.
3rd basemen that bat like SS's.

Seriously, TWO hits.
Pitching - even the occasional HORRID start - is not our problem.

It's pretty sad that we abhor playing in the AL because having to field a DH is actually a NEGATIVE for us.

UGH!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 10:47 PM
If Hanigan, Dickerson and Votto actually played at the same time, we could score more runs. That removes two of the players hitting sub .150 the last month. EE comes back shortly. He homered again today. That removes another.

texasdave
06-24-2009, 10:51 PM
Reds dangling Arroyo...and Toronto whacking him like he was a pinata.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Reds dangling Arroyo...and Toronto whacking him like he was a pinata.

lmao

uncalled for though lol

TheBigLebowski
06-24-2009, 10:56 PM
I'd like to dangle both Walt and Bronson.

Oxblood
06-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Reds dangling Arroyo...and Toronto whacking him like he was a pinata.

Post of the month.