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bellhead
06-22-2009, 10:17 PM
Since Arroyo is evidently being shopped by Walt due to salary and hopefully Baily forcing his hand....

Who would you like to get and why....

Please provide some links or other info also..

PS...

This is the forum in the Redszone where people in the know post.....:D:D:D:D:beerme::beerme::beerme::beerme:

Benihana
06-22-2009, 10:24 PM
IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE

1. Elvis Andrus SS Tex
2. Brandon Wood SS/3B Ana
3. Taylor Teagarden/Max Ramirez C Tex
4. Michael Taylor OF Phi
5. Jason Donald SS Phi
6. Lou Marson C Phi

GIDP
06-22-2009, 10:33 PM
I could see Bradon Wood getting involed.

I dont see Texas going after Arroyo at all.

Out of the teams I could see him going to it would be Philly, Atlanta, LA Angels, White Sox might make a play for him, and possibly the Dodgers.

GOYA
06-22-2009, 10:34 PM
I wouldn't take a prospect. I'd only take a proven MLB hitter.

But if there was one in a package, I wouldn't mind Austin Jackson.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Austin%20Jackson&pos=&sid=t531&t=p_pbp&pid=457706

The Yanks would have to be crazy to trade him but Cashman does some crazy things.

Benihana
06-22-2009, 10:44 PM
I wouldn't take a prospect. I'd only take a proven MLB hitter.

But if there was one in a package, I wouldn't mind Austin Jackson.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Austin%20Jackson&pos=&sid=t531&t=p_pbp&pid=457706

The Yanks would have to be crazy to trade him but Cashman does some crazy things.

If the deal is with the Yankees, the one guy I want back is Jesus Montero. We have enough CF in the system right now:

Taveras (ha!)
Dickerson
Stubbs
Heisey
Reed
Sappelt
Fellhauser
Rodriguez

GOYA
06-22-2009, 10:48 PM
If the deal is with the Yankees, the one guy I want back is Jesus Montero. We have enough CF in the system right now:

Taveras (ha!)
Dickerson
Stubbs
Heisey
Reed
Sappelt
Fellhauser
Rodriguez

But none of them are 22 years old at AAA hitting .342. The only downside to Jackson is lack of power but it may come.

dougdirt
06-22-2009, 10:49 PM
If the deal is with the Yankees, the one guy I want back is Jesus Montero. We have enough CF in the system right now

We have enough first baseman too though.

GIDP
06-22-2009, 10:49 PM
I dont want any Yankee prospects.

dougdirt
06-22-2009, 10:57 PM
I dont want any Yankee prospects.

I would gladly take Montero or AJax into the Reds system. Those guys are legit. The problem is Montero is a 1B/DH and AJax plays CF where we have a ton of other guys already. Still, he would be the #1 CF we would have the day he were to put on a uniform.

Benihana
06-22-2009, 10:58 PM
We have enough first baseman too though.

It remains to be seen whether or not Montero can remain behind the plate. One thing's for sure though- I'd take his future (both bat and glove) over Mesoraco's any day of the week.

dougdirt
06-22-2009, 11:00 PM
It remains to be seen whether or not Montero can remain behind the plate. One thing's for sure though- I'd take his future (both bat and glove) over Mesoraco's any day of the week.

It doesn't remain to be seen on Montero. Dude simply won't catch. No one thinks so. As for the Mesoraco comparison... not sure what it has to do with anything. Montero is a top 50 prospect in baseball, even when we consider the fact that he will play 1B or DH as a pro.

GIDP
06-22-2009, 11:00 PM
I would gladly take Montero or AJax into the Reds system. Those guys are legit. The problem is Montero is a 1B/DH and AJax plays CF where we have a ton of other guys already. Still, he would be the #1 CF we would have the day he were to put on a uniform.

My problem is just how hyped Yankee prospects are. I dont doubt he is a good prospect but just something about Yankee prospects and their value has been skewed for a long long time.

dougdirt
06-22-2009, 11:04 PM
My problem is just how hyped Yankee prospects are. I dont doubt he is a good prospect but just something about Yankee prospects and their value has been skewed for a long long time.

I don't buy into hype. I have my own sources and eyes that aren't feeding any Yankee hype machine. Even if I didn't, all you have to do is watch them. Montero especially, he looks like a man among boys right now. Jackson looks like the best athlete on the field just about anytime he steps on the grass and he really knows what he is doing at the plate. The power hasn't shown up all that much in the HR department yet, but he will be fine.

LoganBuck
06-22-2009, 11:08 PM
IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE

1. Elvis Andrus SS Tex
2. Brandon Wood SS/3B Ana
3. Taylor Teagarden/Max Ramirez C Tex
4. Michael Taylor OF Phi
5. Jason Donald SS Phi
6. Lou Marson C Phi

1. Untouchable
2. Nice guy, I would look into
3. Both of those bats have been down since moving up to the AAA and MLB levels.
4. Near Untouchable
5. Zach Cozart is better
6. We already have that guy, his name is Craig Tatum.

I want an elite SS, or a power hitting right handed outfielder.

Quality over Quantity.

GIDP
06-22-2009, 11:10 PM
I don't buy into hype. I have my own sources and eyes that aren't feeding any Yankee hype machine. Even if I didn't, all you have to do is watch them. Montero especially, he looks like a man among boys right now. Jackson looks like the best athlete on the field just about anytime he steps on the grass and he really knows what he is doing at the plate. The power hasn't shown up all that much in the HR department yet, but he will be fine.
Yea honestly its just a hang up I have personally.

13 in hall
06-23-2009, 01:31 AM
I know this is concerning Arroyo but I don't see him bringing much in return. Now Harang would bring a nice return? Maybe Wood and Kendrick and another from the Angels? The Yanks might be willing to part with the goods for him but not Arroyo. IMO

bellhead
06-23-2009, 07:34 AM
I know this is concerning Arroyo but I don't see him bringing much in return. Now Harang would bring a nice return? Maybe Wood and Kendrick and another from the Angels? The Yanks might be willing to part with the goods for him but not Arroyo. IMO

Arroyo believe it or not if he is shopped is the best arm available this trade season. It's a crappy year and Uncle Walt is holding all the cards in the poker game.

lollipopcurve
06-23-2009, 08:22 AM
You're not going to get an elite prospect for Arroyo. It just won't happen -- those players are only available for top shelf major league talent.

I think you can get 2nd tier guys who are blocked by better talent (i.e., Donald blocked by Rollins, Mayberry blocked by Taylor and the major league OFs in Philly) or perhaps a young pitcher who's still years away (Jason Knapp). I think the guiding strategy would be to free up money for a bat, in another deal.

bellhead
06-23-2009, 09:01 AM
Give me 3 middle tier prospects, but this also depends on the organization. Oakland's system is much better than say the Yankees at this time if I am correct.

I think a lot of it is how much Uncle Walt is able to play 2 or 3 teams against each other and bid the price up on Bronson as opposed to his real value. Like I said before the Reds are holding all the chips in this one. The others teams can't go down the street to get a different deal there really is no one else.

Benihana
06-23-2009, 09:18 AM
1. Untouchable
2. Nice guy, I would look into
3. Both of those bats have been down since moving up to the AAA and MLB levels.
4. Near Untouchable
5. Zach Cozart is better
6. We already have that guy, his name is Craig Tatum.

I want an elite SS, or a power hitting right handed outfielder.

Quality over Quantity.

So please stop being a mere critic and put forth your list.

dunner13
06-23-2009, 10:27 AM
To me the trade I could see happening and would like is arroyo for wood. Its obvious that the angels are not going to ever give wood a real shot at playing every day so Im sure they would deal him. Arroyo seems like the type of pitcher they would have intrest in as well.

HokieRed
06-23-2009, 10:39 AM
To me the trade I could see happening and would like is arroyo for wood. Its obvious that the angels are not going to ever give wood a real shot at playing every day so Im sure they would deal him. Arroyo seems like the type of pitcher they would have intrest in as well.

Of the players I've seen mentioned, Wood is the most interesting IMHO. The others are either unrealistic--e.g. Andrus--or worse than players we already have--Donald, Marson. The question about Wood is whether he can play SS. If not, and he's destined for 3b, then we've added another guy at the position we are already best stocked for in the minor leagues. So the question would be how much of an upgrade, if any, is he over EE, Frazier, Francisco, Soto? Is Arroyo worth that amount of difference, if there is any.

GIDP
06-23-2009, 10:42 AM
I would think a likely thing is we trade a contract for another contract.

Scrap Irony
06-23-2009, 11:49 AM
Wood is, by all accounts, an average SS. His arm is good, his range is average, and his glove/ consistency is aove average.

The problem is if he grows out of the position. If it were me, I'd move Wood to 2B if he happens to grow out of SS and move Phillips (if he's still with the team) over to SS. That should give you good arms across the IF with solid gloves that lack a step or two of range. (This assumes Frazier, Francisco, or Soto takes over for EdE at the hot corner.)

It also provides well above average power out of the Cincinnati infield, allowing Jocketty to fill his OF with great gloves that might not hit as well as typical corner OFs do. (Good news for Stubbs and Heisey, if true. Not so much for Votto or Alonso.)

camisadelgolf
06-23-2009, 02:36 PM
If the Reds trade Arroyo for prospects, it better involve a catcher or shortstop who has a future as an everyday player in MLB. That's a very difficult thing to acquire, and it may take more than Arroyo--especially when you consider his salary.

Benihana
06-23-2009, 02:43 PM
Wood is, by all accounts, an average SS. His arm is good, his range is average, and his glove/ consistency is aove average.

The problem is if he grows out of the position. If it were me, I'd move Wood to 2B if he happens to grow out of SS and move Phillips (if he's still with the team) over to SS. That should give you good arms across the IF with solid gloves that lack a step or two of range. (This assumes Frazier, Francisco, or Soto takes over for EdE at the hot corner.)

It also provides well above average power out of the Cincinnati infield, allowing Jocketty to fill his OF with great gloves that might not hit as well as typical corner OFs do. (Good news for Stubbs and Heisey, if true. Not so much for Votto or Alonso.)

I'm not sure if this is the best way to construct a team.

The positions in the middle of the diamond are considered premium defensive positions for a reason- that is where most balls are hit and where you have the most ground to cover. Putting premium defensive players (and lighter bats) at the corners while putting your heavy hitters (but defensive slackers) in the middle of the diamond is not the way to stack your squad.

In other words, I'd rather have bats like Alonso and Votto in the corners and gloves like Phillips (at 2B) and Cozart in the middle, rather than have the heavy hitters in the middle of the field and guys like Stubbs and Heisey in the corners.

*BaseClogger*
06-23-2009, 02:58 PM
I think trading Arroyo to the Phillies for Donald, Marson, and another C Prospect would be a decent deal for the Reds...

dougdirt
06-23-2009, 03:10 PM
I think trading Arroyo to the Phillies for Donald, Marson, and another C Prospect would be a decent deal for the Reds...

Maybe its just me, but I would rather get 1 prospect who might have a chance at being a starter than 3 potential back ups.

I have always felt Donald was overrated. He is currently in AAA with a .617 OPS. Marson has always had youth on his side, but thats about all he has had on his side. He has slugged over .400 twice in his minor league career. His defense isn't exactly turning any heads this year either.

*BaseClogger*
06-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Maybe its just me, but I would rather get 1 prospect who might have a chance at being a starter than 3 potential back ups.

I have always felt Donald was overrated. He is currently in AAA with a .617 OPS. Marson has always had youth on his side, but thats about all he has had on his side. He has slugged over .400 twice in his minor league career. His defense isn't exactly turning any heads this year either.

So, for example, you would rather acquire Brandon Wood?

dougdirt
06-23-2009, 03:20 PM
So, for example, you would rather acquire Brandon Wood?

Without a doubt. Heck, I would rather acquire a guy similar to Zack Cozart than the two Philly prospects+1. I just don't see those guys ever being starters.

*BaseClogger*
06-23-2009, 03:27 PM
Without a doubt. Heck, I would rather acquire a guy similar to Zack Cozart than the two Philly prospects+1. I just don't see those guys ever being starters.

Alright, I'll defer to your judgement. I was just thinking of filling multiple holes, but admittedly Donald's numbers at AAA this year are not encouraging...

travisgrimes
06-23-2009, 03:41 PM
to say Michael Taylor is nearly untouchable is stupid... everyone who knows baseball has been reporting Taylor is their best trading chip and they are more than willing to deal him to get a good starting pitcher... i would do a arroyo for taylor swap right now

LoganBuck
06-23-2009, 04:00 PM
to say Michael Taylor is nearly untouchable is stupid... everyone who knows baseball has been reporting Taylor is their best trading chip and they are more than willing to deal him to get a good starting pitcher... i would do a arroyo for taylor swap right now

Taylor may be their "best" chip, but saying he is nearly untouchable is definitely not stupid. Is Yonder Alonso untouchable? No, but you are going to have to bring me more than a #3 starter for me to trade him. Same applies to the Phillies. Just because they have a surplus doesn't mean they are going to trade him for the first thing to come along. They are going to have to get desperate, and Walt is going to play some poker.

bellhead
06-23-2009, 05:09 PM
Taylor may be their "best" chip, but saying he is nearly untouchable is definitely not stupid. Is Yonder Alonso untouchable? No, but you are going to have to bring me more than a #3 starter for me to trade him. Same applies to the Phillies. Just because they have a surplus doesn't mean they are going to trade him for the first thing to come along. They are going to have to get desperate, and Walt is going to play some poker.

That depends, does the #3 starter put you over the hump and into a world series, and a championship. This is the ultimate goal, so yes he would be given up for a ring.

LoganBuck
06-23-2009, 10:08 PM
That depends, does the #3 starter put you over the hump and into a world series, and a championship. This is the ultimate goal, so yes he would be given up for a ring.

Maybe, just don't act like they would automatically give him up. We aren't talking about a blocked prospect, who is out of options at AAA.

Mario-Rijo
06-24-2009, 12:39 AM
I think that definitely the teams that have been mentioned are the correct ones to target and who would probably have some level of interest. My gut says that although Philly could use him and would make some kind of offer for him his most likely future address if it comes to that might be out West. I think Joe Torre could see the value in him, since he has seen plenty of him and knows he is capable of pitching out of the rotation or pen. I don't know he would necc. use him as a starter in the playoffs and most likely that's all they are probably looking for. I think the Dodgers have had their fill of Penny so I doubt he's in their crosshairs. Plus who would you rather have Arroyo, Weaver or Milton? Having said that LA is tough to deal with these days and no one is really looking forward to adding significant payroll. I'd say odds are he won't go anywhere and unless we have no chance or it will be detrimental to keeping our core together I'd rather him stay.

All that aside the Dodgers are deep with prospects and the main target(s) for me are still SS Ivan DeJesus Jr., RHP James McDonald, LHP Scott Elbert and a new one 3B Josh Bell. Secondary guys being Blake Dewitt, Andrew Lambo, Francisco Felix. And 1 guy who would/should be considered a throw in who I'd take a chance on is catcher Kenley Jansen. His defense looks solid but he is a 21 yr old at AAA and he has never hit real well but he seems to have some patience and maybe a bit of pop. Seems to have some trouble making contact but looking thru the #'s a bit he seems like he might be worth a flyer to see if there is something than can be done with his swing. For example taking away his switch hitting as he can't hit LHP to save his life, but he may be able to eventually hit RHP as he has done some decent things against them.

I'd look for a Elbert/McDonald, DeJesus/Bell and Jansen deal. Obviously i'd prefer Elbert, DeJesus and Jansen for Arroyo and perhaps a bullpen arm like Rhodes. Hey if you are gonna do it, do it right. Deal him off and bring up Viola.

bellhead
06-24-2009, 09:49 AM
I think that definitely the teams that have been mentioned are the correct ones to target and who would probably have some level of interest. My gut says that although Philly could use him and would make some kind of offer for him his most likely future address if it comes to that might be out West. I think Joe Torre could see the value in him, since he has seen plenty of him and knows he is capable of pitching out of the rotation or pen. I don't know he would necc. use him as a starter in the playoffs and most likely that's all they are probably looking for. I think the Dodgers have had their fill of Penny so I doubt he's in their crosshairs. Plus who would you rather have Arroyo, Weaver or Milton? Having said that LA is tough to deal with these days and no one is really looking forward to adding significant payroll. I'd say odds are he won't go anywhere and unless we have no chance or it will be detrimental to keeping our core together I'd rather him stay.

All that aside the Dodgers are deep with prospects and the main target(s) for me are still SS Ivan DeJesus Jr., RHP James McDonald, LHP Scott Elbert and a new one 3B Josh Bell. Secondary guys being Blake Dewitt, Andrew Lambo, Francisco Felix. And 1 guy who would/should be considered a throw in who I'd take a chance on is catcher Kenley Jansen. His defense looks solid but he is a 21 yr old at AAA and he has never hit real well but he seems to have some patience and maybe a bit of pop. Seems to have some trouble making contact but looking thru the #'s a bit he seems like he might be worth a flyer to see if there is something than can be done with his swing. For example taking away his switch hitting as he can't hit LHP to save his life, but he may be able to eventually hit RHP as he has done some decent things against them.

I'd look for a Elbert/McDonald, DeJesus/Bell and Jansen deal. Obviously i'd prefer Elbert, DeJesus and Jansen for Arroyo and perhaps a bullpen arm like Rhodes. Hey if you are gonna do it, do it right. Deal him off and bring up Viola.

I would gladly take SS Ivan DeJesus Jr. and catcher Kenley Jansen for Arroyo. Anything on top of that and it's gravy.

Dejesus would project as our starter at SS next year, and would fit in nicely. His average is good, from what I have found he is also an excellent defensive player.

Year Team Lg Age Org. Level Pos Ln G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO HBP IBB SH SF DP AVG OBP SLG OPS

2008 JCK Sou 21 La AA ss-2b 128 463 91 150 21 2 7 58 16 2 76 81 5 3 9 7 17 .324 .419 .423 84

dougdirt
06-24-2009, 11:34 AM
Mario Rijo, you have been beating the Ivan DeJesus Jr drum for a while now. Do you really think he is a better prospect than a guy like Zack Cozart? If so, what makes you feel that way? Personally, I just don't see it but am curious to see your answer.

Mario-Rijo
06-24-2009, 08:12 PM
Mario Rijo, you have been beating the Ivan DeJesus Jr drum for a while now. Do you really think he is a better prospect than a guy like Zack Cozart? If so, what makes you feel that way? Personally, I just don't see it but am curious to see your answer.

Granted you probably have more info on him that I am not privy too and perhaps you'd be willing to share your reasons for not being high on him if so. I recall we had this discussion one other time and I think you may have said why you weren't but I don't recall what it was, but what you said didn't change my thinking on him.

But basically from all I have gathered (i.e. read about him) his defense probably isn't quite on par with Cozart, but plenty adequate enough in every way. However he still needs some polish in that regard. The biggest reason I like him is his offensive game to this point and how it projects. 1st let me say that I have a theory that I think for the most part holds pretty true for most players. In short they gain more pop in stages and I have noticed that most players tend to gain that extra pop/strength at ages 21, 24 and 27-28. So I tend to look for guys who show good to advanced contact and discipline skills and what they are slugging and project it forward. Certainly it's not failproof but usually the guys who do this and who are young for their level tend to be good bats going forward. I don't have scouting reports on everyone and that makes it tougher but I feel pretty confident that DeJesus bat will play at the major league level as an average starting SS based on what he is doing right now and he has plenty of room to improve yet. Also from what I have read his defense is capable of being starter level as well.

Basically find me a guy who makes good contact, has good discipline, solid range, good arm strength and solid hands who has played SS and has the requisite bat speed necc. to play in the major leagues and I'll give you a starting major league SS. The only thing I don't know for sure is how good his bat speed is but so far I have seen no reason to question it. The other areas I am confident he will be average or better at.

In a nutshell I think he is as good a SS prospect as anyone would deal off to us, and I think he's probably farely equal to Cozart from an overall perspective. Whether he's better or worse than Cozart is debatable I think he will end up being better, however there's no reason not to have more than one guy with a shot at filling that role. What don't you think DeJesus is as good or better a prospect than Cozart? And why is Cozarts presence reason not to pursue another option?

Benihana
06-24-2009, 10:13 PM
With the M's only 2.5 games out and Balentien struggling and out of options, I wonder what it would take to acquire him and Jeff Clement, who's currently back in AAA? Phillipe Aumont has been converted into a closer, so they are short on young pitching.

Maybe if Bailey bombs in his latest major league go-round, these guys could be considered in a faded-star swap much like Brandon Wood? Of course, I'm sure jojo will have something to say about this...

dougdirt
06-25-2009, 10:54 AM
Mario Rijo,
I guess the biggest knock with DeJesus is that he has no power and scouts don't really see it showing up to being even average. That also suggests the walks are going to dry up some too leaving him as mostly a average based hitter with solid defense. Not anything wrong with that type of guy, but I don't see it as an upgrade to a guy like Cozart at all.

RedsManRick
06-25-2009, 01:35 PM
Arroyo for Wood seems like a very logical move for both organizations. However, I don't see the Reds trading Arroyo unless they fall out of the race or Volquez's shoulder miraculous heals 100% in the next 2-3 weeks.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 01:50 PM
Arroyo for Wood seems like a very logical move for both organizations. However, I don't see the Reds trading Arroyo unless they fall out of the race or Volquez's shoulder miraculous heals 100% in the next 2-3 weeks.

That's the type of short-sighted BS that has plagued the organization for too long. As long as there are no long-term implications for his health (which has been the indication), whether or not Volquez is ready to go July 15 or September 15 shouldn't factor into the decision to trade Arroyo for Brandon Wood.

If the Reds believe that Brandon Wood is the long-term solution at SS or 3B, they should pull the trigger on that deal. If they don't because Volquez won't be back for another month, it's just more of the same BS- struggling to tread water around the .500 mark.

dougdirt
06-25-2009, 01:58 PM
it's just more of the same BS- struggling to tread water around the .500 mark.

Thats what the fans want. They don't care about next year or the year after. They want to win today. So does Bob.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 02:22 PM
Thats what the fans want. They don't care about next year or the year after. They want to win today. So does Bob.

Yep, and that's why the Reds have fared how they have in the last decade:

As Billy Beane said (and I'm paraphrasing), "You're either contending or you're rebuilding. There is no in-between." The Marlins and the Rays understand that. The Reds don't.

Mario-Rijo
06-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Mario Rijo,
I guess the biggest knock with DeJesus is that he has no power and scouts don't really see it showing up to being even average. That also suggests the walks are going to dry up some too leaving him as mostly a average based hitter with solid defense. Not anything wrong with that type of guy, but I don't see it as an upgrade to a guy like Cozart at all.

Well that's fair I supppose but how they can say that with anything resembling accuracy I'll never know. I mean what are they basing that off of there doesn't seem to be any indication that he can't offset a lack of raw strength with his other skills? I mean I guess I could see it if he were a small guy but he's not at 5'11" 182 lbs. at age 21. Perhaps he does have bat speed issues otherwise I don't get it. All I know is that he slugged .423 (although a bit BA driven) at age 21 in AA over 560 PA's, which isn't setting the world on fire but not bad either. As far as his BB's drying up I understand their reasoning somewhat but he also hit .324 and his BB's well above average. Granted those #'s are not in line with his previous seaons however he is just 21 and his previous #'s show progression to this point.

Let me just say I understand your stance but I am choosing to ignore their projections until I see more from him. I think he has enough contact ability, discipline and speed to be an average to slightly above average starting SS offensively. And I think they might be shortchanging his pop, certainly the raw power may not be there in great excess but the rest of his skills could offset that IMO. Of course he's injured currently which probably makes my hypothetical offer for him moot anyway.

dougdirt
06-25-2009, 03:42 PM
Well that's fair I supppose but how they can say that with anything resembling accuracy I'll never know. I mean what are they basing that off of there doesn't seem to be any indication that he can't offset a lack of raw strength with his other skills? I mean I guess I could see it if he were a small guy but he's not at 5'11" 182 lbs. at age 21. Perhaps he does have bat speed issues otherwise I don't get it. All I know is that he slugged .423 (although a bit BA driven) at age 21 in AA over 560 PA's, which isn't setting the world on fire but not bad either. As far as his BB's drying up I understand their reasoning somewhat but he also hit .324 and his BB's well above average. Granted those #'s are not in line with his previous seaons however he is just 21 and his previous #'s show progression to this point. There is a lot that goes into it, but its probably coupled with his swing plane, bat speed, size and a few other things. As for his SLG, I don't put much into the overall number, I care more about his IsoP (SLG-AVG) and its just around .100. Thats really, really low. Pitchers in the majors won't be worried about throwing him strikes because whats he going to do at worst, hit a double? Unless he bats before the pitcher, I doubt he will walk 50+ times in a season because pitchers simply don't have to fear him doing a ton of damage.

Mario-Rijo
06-25-2009, 03:50 PM
There is a lot that goes into it, but its probably coupled with his swing plane, bat speed, size and a few other things. As for his SLG, I don't put much into the overall number, I care more about his IsoP (SLG-AVG) and its just around .100. Thats really, really low. Pitchers in the majors won't be worried about throwing him strikes because whats he going to do at worst, hit a double? Unless he bats before the pitcher, I doubt he will walk 50+ times in a season because pitchers simply don't have to fear him doing a ton of damage.

The reason I disagree is that in a nutshell he isn't a finished product and he seems to have shown enough in the way of contact to hit for average. If he can do that the walks won't go anywhere. Certainly I understand the ramifications his lack of power will play into both his BA and BB's but plenty of guys who have almost no power whatsoever have managed to hit for avg. quite well. I think he can be solid. Now a guy like Elvis Andrus to me is different because he never showed much in the way of contact ability on top of just ok discipline and no pop.

I'm not disagreeing with you just feel like he might be undervalued by the scouting community. Chances are I'll probably be wrong but I am not yet ready to concede.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 05:23 PM
Taylor may be their "best" chip, but saying he is nearly untouchable is definitely not stupid.

Yes it is.

From Jayson Stark's latest column posted about an hour ago:

The Phillies have given indications that they'd part with Michael Taylor and/or Jason Donald in a deal for an impact starter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090625&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

Here's more if you want it:


Even before they imploded on their last homestand, the Phillies were one of the most aggressive teams out there in hunting for pitching. And interestingly, clubs that have asked them about some of their most ballyhooed prospects, such as outfielder Michael Taylor and infielder Jason Donald, have gotten indications the Phillies would trade either, or both, for an impact starter. (Don't ask who, but that's another story.)

"They know they have to move somebody big to get what they want," said an official of one team they talked to. "And I think they're willing to do that."

The six young players the Phillies wouldn't listen on, the same official said: outfielder Dominic Brown, catcher Lou Marson, and pitchers Kyle Drabek, Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco and Antonio Bastardo.

Meanwhile, we're hearing the Phillies have knocked Pittsburgh's Ian Snell and Arizona's Doug Davis off their shopping list.

• Shoes to Phil: One scout's review of the two rookie left-handers in the Phillies' rotation: J.A. Happ and Bastardo: "Both of those guys are guys I'd like to have. But here's the problem: When you're built for today, you can't afford the growing pains. And that team is built to win today. So they need another starter."


Bronson Arroyo for Michael Taylor and either Jason Donald or J.A. Happ. Done and done!

BRM
06-25-2009, 05:42 PM
Is Arroyo considered an impact starter? Impact to me means a #1 or #2 type, which is not Bronson.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 06:07 PM
Is Arroyo considered an impact starter? Impact to me means a #1 or #2 type, which is not Bronson.

In the current market he probably is, although not if he keeps laying eggs like last night.

HokieRed
06-25-2009, 10:39 PM
When Justin Lehr came back to the Reds, where did he come from? I ask because his stats--current ones--are now showing on the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs (Phillies AAA) stat sheet. He's not on Louisville roster but isn't on Lehigh Valley either. But is something going on?

camisadelgolf
06-26-2009, 03:09 AM
When Justin Lehr came back to the Reds, where did he come from? I ask because his stats--current ones--are now showing on the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs (Phillies AAA) stat sheet. He's not on Louisville roster but isn't on Lehigh Valley either. But is something going on?
The Reds bought him from the Phillies.

schmidty622
06-26-2009, 06:53 AM
Yes it is.

From Jayson Stark's latest column posted about an hour ago:

The Phillies have given indications that they'd part with Michael Taylor and/or Jason Donald in a deal for an impact starter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090625&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

Here's more if you want it:



Bronson Arroyo for Michael Taylor and either Jason Donald or J.A. Happ. Done and done!

For a return like that I would be fine to part with Harang or Arroyo. Offer Arroyo and some mid level guy up first but if that doesn't get it done see if Harang can swing something.

HokieRed
06-26-2009, 11:25 AM
The Reds bought him from the Phillies.

Thanks, answers that. I thought he was still overseas.

Benihana
06-26-2009, 11:51 AM
For a return like that I would be fine to part with Harang or Arroyo. Offer Arroyo and some mid level guy up first but if that doesn't get it done see if Harang can swing something.

I wouldn't deal Harang for Taylor and Happ.
I would, however, deal Arroyo and their choice of Francisco/Heisey/Maloney.

Bailey replaces Arroyo as your fourth starter, and Happ becomes your fifth starter, sending Owings to the pen once Volquez returns. Nix and Gomes finish the year in a platoon, but Michael Taylor solves your LF quandary for 2010 and beyond:

2010 (Alonso, Stewart & Wood start in Louisville)

Stubbs/Dickerson CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Taylor LF
Bruce RF
Encarnacion/Frazier 3B
Hanigan C
Valaika/Janish/Cozart? SS

SP1 Cueto R
SP2 Harang R
SP3 Volquez R
SP4 Bailey R
SP5 Happ L

RL Owings R
RL Roenicke/Fisher R
RL Bray/Viola L
RL Herrera L
RL Burton R
CL Cordero R

:thumbup:

corkedbat
06-26-2009, 01:11 PM
Yhe Reds really need to be shrewd and get the next several months right. I like a lot of our younger pieces, but still think we could use a couple of pieces (a RH bat in LF and a SS would be my choices, maybe a 3B and any solid arms are always welcomed).

Unlike some of the past few years, the Reds may have several veterans and prospects that they can turn into something useful. I love Harang and Arroyo, but htis franchise cannot afford to get caught in a year or two. with 1/3 of their payroll tied up in two starters, with younger better options, left out of the rotation becasue of contracts. It won't be easy and there's definitely risks, but that's the price of playing with the big boys. At least on from among Aaron & Bronson must go if they can get a solid return. Phillips and Encarnacion would be gone by the start of ST 2010 too, unless I was sure Baker would not bat Phillips any higher than sixth in the lineup.

If Arroyo can be dealt for Michael Taylor, I'll drive he and his guitar to Philly myself.

camisadelgolf
06-26-2009, 02:03 PM
Thanks, answers that. I thought he was still overseas.
Lehr is the guy who taught Homer Bailey the splitter, so the trade may have already paid off.

HokieRed
06-26-2009, 02:49 PM
Lehr is the guy who taught Homer Bailey the splitter, so the trade may have already paid off.


Or if it wrecks Homer's arm, we may wish the Phils had kept Lehr.

Benihana
06-26-2009, 02:55 PM
Or if it wrecks Homer's arm, we may wish the Phils had kept Lehr.

No regrets- I'm not sure he was going to be much in Cincy without the splitter.

Kingspoint
06-26-2009, 06:32 PM
I would take anything for Arroyo right now. Arroyo's record should be 3-12 the way he's pitched.

Mario-Rijo
06-26-2009, 06:38 PM
I would take anything for Arroyo right now. Arroyo's record should be 3-12 the way he's pitched.

Perhaps with this offense but he's had quality or better starts in half or more of his games. The other half not so good to reprehensible.

Kingspoint
06-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Perhaps with this offense but he's had quality or better starts in half or more of his games. The other half not so good to reprehensible.

Even in his "quality" starts, he's been doing it with mirrors....always a pitch away from disaster.

He's gutsy, and a very savvy veteran, and has been pounded all year.

The pendulum will swing the other way, and he start losing every game he pitches. I'd like to get rid of him now while there's at least the semblance that he can pitch effectively for someone.

Of course, I said the same thing at this time last season, and Arroyo turned it around and pitched very effectively the second half. If I was selling, I'd use that as a selling point when trying to obtain a player for him.

Ideally, I'd like us to get a minor league left-handed pitcher for him, someone similar to Trevor Reckling of the Angels organization, an 8th Round pick in the 2007 draft. Last Dec 2nd, he was the #4 BA prospect in the Angels organization. Don't know where he ranks now, but that's the type of player I'd go after for Arroyo.

Mario-Rijo
06-27-2009, 02:32 AM
Even in his "quality" starts, he's been doing it with mirrors....always a pitch away from disaster.

He's gutsy, and a very savvy veteran, and has been pounded all year.

The pendulum will swing the other way, and he start losing every game he pitches. I'd like to get rid of him now while there's at least the semblance that he can pitch effectively for someone.

Of course, I said the same thing at this time last season, and Arroyo turned it around and pitched very effectively the second half. If I was selling, I'd use that as a selling point when trying to obtain a player for him.

Ideally, I'd like us to get a minor league left-handed pitcher for him, someone similar to Trevor Reckling of the Angels organization, an 8th Round pick in the 2007 draft. Last Dec 2nd, he was the #4 BA prospect in the Angels organization. Don't know where he ranks now, but that's the type of player I'd go after for Arroyo.

He's always done it with mirrors if the alternative is great stuff. He's one who gets by as much on guile as anything, always has. By the end of the year he'll most likely be just what he is every year, a solid #3-#4 pitcher. Of course I wouldn't necc. argue against dealing him but if anyone fits the title "he is what he is" it's Arroyo.