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View Full Version : I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot



Ghosts of 1990
06-23-2009, 09:05 PM
Lets hear someone refute it. The numbers support it. The guy throws absolute batting practice. I am not questioning his guts, his heart, his effort, anything like that. I am sure he's a nice guy. He's a decent hitting pitcher although I think too often that is getting him a free pass for the 88 mph batting practice he throws each start. The guy just doesn't miss any bats and throws a really hittable pitch. A disaster in our park. I wish they'd pull the plug on the Owings as the 5th starter experiment.

TC81190
06-23-2009, 09:07 PM
Find another team, plug in their fifth starter's name everywhere in your post where you used the word Owings, and I'm sure your post would still hold up pretty accurate.

Kingspoint
06-23-2009, 09:09 PM
...and I told you he is, and he still is.

He's a young pitcher, who's trading good starts with bad ones. Nobody would have pitched well today, not Harang, not Volquez, not Arroyo, not Cueto, if they saw that pitiful lineup that Dusty put together to back them up tonight.

Having to throw a shutout just to give your team the ability to go into extra innings is way too much pressure to put onto a young pitcher like Cueto or Owings.

Anything other than what happened tonight would have been a surprise.

If it wasn't for Owing's 3-run homer last game, he would have lost after giving up only 2 runs. This time, he doesn't even get the opportunity to bat. That had to get into his head (that Baker is such an idiot).

Captain Hook
06-23-2009, 09:22 PM
Owens is good enough to be our 5th starter.I think it will take at least a few starts in a row like tonight's before management would even start thinking(if they think at all) about replacing him.Seems like he bounces back after really bad outings though.

Its will get more and more tempting to see what Baily could do in the bigs with that splitter but Owens hasn't lost his spot yet and Homer needs to keep proving he can get the job done at a high level for a littler longer at AAA.

jmac
06-23-2009, 09:24 PM
Find another team, plug in their fifth starter's name everywhere in your post where you used the word Owings, and I'm sure your post would still hold up pretty accurate.
You hit the nail on the head.

FlightRick
06-23-2009, 09:25 PM
The numbers?

Owings (even after tonight) has a 4.7-ish ERA, and (MUCH more tellingly to me, since I kind of like this stat) has 7 Quality Starts in 13 Games Started. If you count his 14th appearance (in relief during the marathon in San Diego), he basically has 8 Quality Appearances out of 14.

In short: that means our #5 starter has kept us in the game and given us a chance to win more often than he's single-handedly put us out of a game. Eight times out of 14, he's held his own and done his job. Not setting the world on fire, maybe, but to say that's not "worthy" of being our #5 would seem to indicate a fundamental lack of understanding of what a fifth starter is expected to do or a fundamental belief that this is just a videogame where you can press a few buttons and force a dimwitted Xbox GM to make a trade in order to create a Dream Rotation.

Something much more interesting about Owings that I was talking about with a friend tonight: does the DH have to bat for the pitcher? Or can you Designate a Hitter for anyone in the line-up? Neither of us knew what the MLB rule was... but if the DH exists without a specific clause about replacing the pitcher, would you let Owings hit if he were an AL pitcher (or an NL pitcher playing in an AL park)? I figure the hang-up there would be that if Owings didn't pitch well enough to get 2 ABs (which, as I outlined above, appears to happen roughly 6 times out of 14), then you're hamstringing yourself by letting Owings hit and DH'ing somebody in the place of Rosales or Taveras or whoever...

A little something fun to think about. What would you do? And if anybody knows the exact MLB rule about DHs, I'd be interesting in learning about that, too....



Rick

goreds2
06-23-2009, 09:26 PM
Lets hear someone refute it. The numbers support it. The guy throws absolute batting practice. I am not questioning his guts, his heart, his effort, anything like that.

He is Cy Young compared to the last few years 5th starter slots for us.

Lockdwn11
06-23-2009, 09:35 PM
Lets hear someone refute it. The numbers support it. The guy throws absolute batting practice. I am not questioning his guts, his heart, his effort, anything like that. I am sure he's a nice guy. He's a decent hitting pitcher although I think too often that is getting him a free pass for the 88 mph batting practice he throws each start. The guy just doesn't miss any bats and throws a really hittable pitch. A disaster in our park. I wish they'd pull the plug on the Owings as the 5th starter experiment.

You really don't get it do you? This isn't MLB 2K9 with the block trades turned off. Your not going to have an ace in your 5th spot in the rotation. Go look at other 5th starter in this league and compare Owings stats to thier's and then come back and answer your own question. You are always bashing him but you never have any answer to who should be in there. Well you do said it should be Bailey( How did that work out) but you also say Bailey should have been in the rotation ahead of Harang comming out of spring tranning.

Ghosts of 1990
06-23-2009, 09:40 PM
You really don't get it do you? Go look at other 5th starter in this league and compare Owings stats to thier's and then come back and answer your own question.

Your first post did just fine. Why make a second ripping into the same point?

We'd be better suited with Bailey, Maloney, or someone with a future....... Owings throws batting practice. I am not imagining things.

Lockdwn11
06-23-2009, 09:55 PM
Your first post did just fine. Why make a second ripping into the same point?

We'd be better suited with Bailey, Maloney, or someone with a future....... Owings throws batting practice. I am not imagining things.

Not really rippin you but it gets old. We get it you don't like Owings. You think he sucks and he isn't good enough to be a 5th starter in this league even though he is only 26 and the numbers don't back up your clams, but did you really need to start a new thread on this I mean you have made your postion clear on how you feel about Owings in the past.

Captain Hook
06-23-2009, 09:57 PM
Hasn't there been like 2 or 3 other threads just like this one?JB32 loves this argument and starting threads about it as much as Dusty likes playing Willy T. and batting him first.People keep telling him he's wrong but he just keeps doing it.

Ghosts of 1990
06-23-2009, 10:10 PM
Hasn't there been like 2 or 3 other threads just like this one?JB32 loves this argument and starting threads about it as much as Dusty likes playing Willy T. and batting him first.People keep telling him he's wrong but he just keeps doing it.

This is the first thread I've started about Micah Owings. It might not be the last however. He's good enough to let the Pirates or Astros over-take us.

Ghosts of 1990
06-23-2009, 10:11 PM
Not really rippin you but it gets old. We get it you don't like Owings. You think he sucks and he isn't good enough to be a 5th starter in this league even though he is only 26 and the numbers don't back up your clams, but did you really need to start a new thread on this I mean you have made your postion clear on how you feel about Owings in the past.

But owings continues to prove my point and I'm not sure how anyone can defend it anymore..... he consistently gets hit hard.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-23-2009, 10:12 PM
Your first post did just fine. Why make a second ripping into the same point?

We'd be better suited with Bailey, Maloney, or someone with a future....... Owings throws batting practice. I am not imagining things.

He probably did because this isn't your second, but maybe second dozenth post on the same thing.

You seem to have a disconnect with reality on what a 5th starter is expected to do. Let me ask, what did Bailey and Maloney do on their last starts with the Reds?

Also, why isn't this title about say, Arroyo? He still likely has a higher ERA than Owings even after this start, and is getting paid over $10 mil a year to do it. He seem to have some kind of odd rage against Owings, for whatever reason. Did he run over your dog or something? Sheesh.

TheBigLebowski
06-23-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm not going into this. Too silly. Micah Owings has actually been a bright spot for me this year. He's far from being a problem and I hope he is a Red for a long time.

GIDP
06-23-2009, 10:21 PM
If a guy isnt a cy young he doesnt deserve to pitch ever.

having 5 starters being awesome never happens. Micah owings does quite fine as a 5th starter.

bounty37h
06-24-2009, 12:28 PM
Who was it that guaranteed earlier in the season he stinks and wont win but 2 games all year, was it the OP?

Shawn_RedsFan
06-24-2009, 12:37 PM
You seem to have a disconnect with reality on what a 5th starter is expected to do. Let me ask, what did Bailey and Maloney do on their last starts with the Reds?

Also, why isn't this title about say, Arroyo? He still likely has a higher ERA than Owings even after this start, and is getting paid over $10 mil a year to do it. He seem to have some kind of odd rage against Owings, for whatever reason. Did he run over your dog or something? Sheesh.

Arroyo has pitched pretty darn good...but I guess if we look at ONE of his starts he has been terrible.

Oh and on Homer I forgot that one start is enough to tell you that he isn't ready for big league hitters. If were making assumptions on one start why don't we look at Cueto's last start?? Lets get Cueto out of here I mean if you can't hole a 5 run lead you don't deserve to be in the Majors.



What I am trying to say here is that Owings shows no improvement start after start. If Homer was in Owings spot, yes Homer may get knocked around a few times but im willing to bet he would at least show some improvement start after start.

mivers176
06-24-2009, 01:00 PM
I dont have a problem with Owings either...not for a #5 anyway. But I decided to check a few other good options that other teams have as a #5 just for fun.

Houston
Russ Ortiz 3-3 3.47era

Oakland
V.Mazzaro 2-2 2.56era (only 31 ip though)

StLouis
B.Thompson 2-2 3.89

Cubs
Randy Wells 1-2 2.57

TB
J.Niemann 6-4 4.23


so, to compare to the one post about plug in anyone's 5th starter and get the same results, I cant agree. I only checked about 10 teams and these 5 were superior. I'd say Owings is somewhere in the middle, closer to the bottom half than the top actually.

REDSEER
06-24-2009, 01:09 PM
Regardless of the way Owings pitched last night, he has consistently kept the team in the game, whereas in years past our 5th starter would lose the game by the 3rd inning. Keep in mind that Owings has pitched in many games where he has been opposed by the other team's #1 or #2, and look at the "Exited" stat on his game log. Besides the game in against the Phillies and last night's start, Micah has consistently kept the Reds in the game.

Rk Gcar Gtm Date Tm Opp Rslt Inngs Dec DR IP H R ER BB SO HR HBP ERA Exited
1 52 8 Apr15 CIN MIL L3-9 GS-6 L(0-1) 99 5.0 5 4 4 2 2 2 0 7.20 tie
2 53 13 Apr21 CIN CHC L2-7 GS-5 L(0-2) 5 4.2 5 5 2 4 3 1 0 5.59 d2
3 54 18 Apr26 CIN ATL W8-2 GS-7 W(1-2) 4 7.0 6 1 1 3 6 1 0 3.78 a7
4 55 23 May2 CIN PIT L6-8 GS-6 L(1-3) 5 5.2 9 5 5 2 0 0 1 4.84 d2
5 56 28 May7 CIN MIL W6-5 GS-6 W(2-3) 4 6.0 7 5 4 1 4 0 0 5.08 a1
6 57 33 May12 CIN ARI W3-1 GS-8 W(3-3) 4 7.0 4 1 1 2 4 0 1 4.33 a3
7 59 40 May21 CIN PHI L5-12 GS-3 L(3-5) 4 3.0 6 5 5 3 3 1 0 4.70 d5
8 60 45 May26 CIN HOU W6-4 GS-5 4 5.0 6 3 3 4 3 0 0 4.78 tie
9 61 49 May31 CIN MIL L2-5 GS-6 L(3-6) 4 5.2 8 5 5 3 5 1 0 5.10 d3
10 62 54 Jun5 CIN CHC L1-2 GS-6 L(3-7) 4 6.0 5 2 2 3 6 1 0 4.90 d2
11 63 59 Jun11 CIN WSN L2-3 GS-6 5 5.1 4 1 1 4 4 0 2 4.64 a2
12 64 64 Jun17 CIN ATL W4-3 GS-6 W(4-7) 5 6.0 6 2 2 2 0 1 0 4.50 a2
13 65 69 Jun23 CIN TOR L5-7 GS-6 L(4-8) 5 5.2 9 6 6 2 1 3 0 4.87 d6

He has left with the lead 5 times, left with the team losing 6 times, and left tied twice, which isn't bad for a fifth starter who has faced several TOR starters.

texasdave
06-24-2009, 01:39 PM
They ought to call him Micah "Mirrors" Owings, because that's how he is doing it.

EDDIEGGG27
06-24-2009, 01:41 PM
If your gonna be bashing sum1 in the rotation so far this year then it should be Arroyo. About the exact same #'s and Arroyo is getting paid 10 mill more than Owings.

----Owings vs Arroyo
IP --- 77.2 ---- 89.0
Hits - 83 ------ 92
Runs 46 ------ 53
HR -- 12 ------ 15
BB -- 38 ------ 32
SO -- 46 ------ 48
ERA - 4.87 ---- 5.16
AVG - .273 ---- .273
WHIP 1.56 ---- 1.39

Shawn_RedsFan
06-24-2009, 01:52 PM
If your gonna be bashing sum1 in the rotation so far this year then it should be Arroyo. About the exact same #'s and Arroyo is getting paid 10 mill more than Owings.

----Owings vs Arroyo
IP --- 77.2 ---- 89.0
Hits - 83 ------ 92
Runs 46 ------ 53
HR -- 12 ------ 15
BB -- 38 ------ 32
SO -- 46 ------ 48
ERA - 4.87 ---- 5.16
AVG - .273 ---- .273
WHIP 1.56 ---- 1.39

Look at it start by start please because those numbers are very very deceiving.

REDSEER
06-24-2009, 02:01 PM
Arroyo just so happens to be prone to the absolutely horrible start (@TOR last year, MIL this year) where he can't get anybody out. Take those few games out where he can't locate his breaking pitches, and you have a pitcher who consistently gives you quality starts. Micah this year has been average; not bad but not good. Their numbers may be similar, but I'll take Arroyo any day.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-24-2009, 02:08 PM
Arroyo just so happens to be prone to the absolutely horrible start (@TOR last year, MIL this year) where he can't get anybody out. Take those few games out where he can't locate his breaking pitches, and you have a pitcher who consistently gives you quality starts. Micah this year has been average; not bad but not good. Their numbers may be similar, but I'll take Arroyo any day.

Exactly what I'm saying Owings hasn't even went into the 7th this year. Arroyo will eat those innings for you and save your bullpen from overuse.

Ghosts of 1990
06-24-2009, 02:49 PM
I feel like the same guys who are satisfied with Owings are probably the guys who aren't sick of finishing in 5th place every year. If you're going to make the playoffs, you can't have what Owings gives you as the fifth starter. You gotta strive for better then that, some how some way. I don't know who it is, but as long as Owings is our 5th starter, we just aren't going to be able to contend.

xavr1
06-24-2009, 02:53 PM
I dont have a problem with Owings either...not for a #5 anyway. But I decided to check a few other good options that other teams have as a #5 just for fun.

Houston
Russ Ortiz 3-3 3.47era

Oakland
V.Mazzaro 2-2 2.56era (only 31 ip though)

StLouis
B.Thompson 2-2 3.89

Cubs
Randy Wells 1-2 2.57

TB
J.Niemann 6-4 4.23


so, to compare to the one post about plug in anyone's 5th starter and get the same results, I cant agree. I only checked about 10 teams and these 5 were superior. I'd say Owings is somewhere in the middle, closer to the bottom half than the top actually.

Very interesting stats, which tend to speak for themselves. I was hoping for a little (not a lot) more out of Micah this year. The thing that gets me about him, though, isnt his ERA, WHIP, or record (even though those are telling). What drives me crazy is his uncanny ability to throw like 40 pitches an inning and take nearly every batter to a full count.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-24-2009, 03:01 PM
I feel like the same guys who are satisfied with Owings are probably the guys who aren't sick of finishing in 5th place every year. If you're going to make the playoffs, you can't have what Owings gives you as the fifth starter. You gotta strive for better then that, some how some way. I don't know who it is, but as long as Owings is our 5th starter, we just aren't going to be able to contend.

No the guys who are satisfied with Owings know he already has more wins at the 5 spot this year as we had ALL OF LAST YEAR at the spot. And also realize that the next start Homer gets, what, his 4th or 5th chance up here now? He hasn't proven anything himself to do any better thus far.

You asked for stats, FlightRick gave you a great breakdown earlier, and you didn't respond. I think most here realize the days when Owings would have been the NUMBER ONE STARTER a few years ago, back when Jimmy Haynes Her Way, and Danny "dig your own" Graves were anchoring the rotation. Complaining about him being the 5th starter is kind of like complaining about the mud on your tires while your car is on fire.

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 03:02 PM
I feel like the same guys who are satisfied with Owings are probably the guys who aren't sick of finishing in 5th place every year. If you're going to make the playoffs, you can't have what Owings gives you as the fifth starter. You gotta strive for better then that, some how some way. I don't know who it is, but as long as Owings is our 5th starter, we just aren't going to be able to contend.

Funny you should say that because you was one who said he longed for the old days of losing 7 to 6 because this team was boring. Look the numbers don't back up your claims. When people show you those number you choose to ignore them so go ahead and keep whining about Owings, it your repution on this board.

bounty37h
06-24-2009, 03:12 PM
I feel like the same guys who are satisfied with Owings are probably the guys who aren't sick of finishing in 5th place every year. If you're going to make the playoffs, you can't have what Owings gives you as the fifth starter. You gotta strive for better then that, some how some way. I don't know who it is, but as long as Owings is our 5th starter, we just aren't going to be able to contend.

No, we just realize there are bigger issues/concerns the Reds need to address in order to contend, but yes, we realize 5th spot needs to improve, as does the 3 and 4, but they are not whats holding this team back. While he may not be an all star, he has for the most part given the team a chance to win most of his starts, its the same bats that let us down as for the other starters.

bounty37h
06-24-2009, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE=LouisvilleCARDS;1902886]No the guys who are satisfied with Owings know he already has more wins at the 5 spot this year as we had ALL OF LAST YEAR at the spot. And also realize that the next start Homer gets, what, his 4th or 5th chance up here now? He hasn't proven anything himself to do any better thus far.

You asked for stats, FlightRick gave you a great breakdown earlier, and you didn't respond. I think most here realize the days when Owings would have been the NUMBER ONE STARTER a few years ago, back when Jimmy Haynes Her Way, and Danny "dig your own" Graves were anchoring the rotation. [B]Complaining about him being the 5th starter is kind of like complaining about the mud on your tires while your car is on fire


That says it all.

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 03:17 PM
I don't think anyone is satisfied with Owings as the 5th starter I wish our staff was so good Roy Holliday was the 5th starter but here in the real world that is never going to be the case. Owings is what he is the best 5th starter we have on the team and one of the better ones in the league and untill someone show they are better he is going to be the 5th starter. Im sorry you can't see that

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 03:18 PM
Who was it that guaranteed earlier in the season he stinks and wont win but 2 games all year, was it the OP?


No it was me and i said he would 3-9 by june.

Dang. I was WAYYYYYY oFFF


Hes a whopping 4-8.

You got me. :rolleyes:

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 03:20 PM
Owings is not the answer as a permanent 5th starter.

Which is why the reds are being dumb. Young kids in AAA should be rotating up to see what they can do. Especially to end once and for all this stupid bailey project.

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=LouisvilleCARDS;1902886]No the guys who are satisfied with Owings know he already has more wins at the 5 spot this year as we had ALL OF LAST YEAR at the spot. And also realize that the next start Homer gets, what, his 4th or 5th chance up here now? He hasn't proven anything himself to do any better thus far.

You asked for stats, FlightRick gave you a great breakdown earlier, and you didn't respond. I think most here realize the days when Owings would have been the NUMBER ONE STARTER a few years ago, back when Jimmy Haynes Her Way, and Danny "dig your own" Graves were anchoring the rotation. [B]Complaining about him being the 5th starter is kind of like complaining about the mud on your tires while your car is on fire


That says it all.

Its all part of the puzzle.

One hitter isnt going to magically turn this team into a world series contender.

There's no reason owings should be getting a full year as our 5th starter with the numbers and talent that he obviously lacks. I called this from the first time i saw him throw. The kid doesnt have what it takes. plain and simple. I think one of the big reasons he's still up here is because this teams bats are so bad. That his bat off the bench and bat in the games he starts is actually one of the better ones on the team. And thats sad.

REDSEER
06-24-2009, 03:30 PM
6 IP 2 ER
5.1 IP 1 ER
6 IP 2 ER

These were Owings' three starts BEFORE last night's. Just because the guy had a bad start in 1 out of 4 doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. Look at the numbers. He has kept us in the game in most of his starts. That's what a 5th starter is supposed to do.

Jefferson24
06-24-2009, 03:30 PM
Ownings is not the answer. He may be fine in a long relief role, or a spot start now and then. Bring Bailey up, give him 10-15 starts.

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 03:30 PM
[QUOTE=bounty37h;1902908]

Its all part of the puzzle.

One hitter isnt going to magically turn this team into a world series contender.

There's no reason owings should be getting a full year as our 5th starter with the numbers and talent that he obviously lacks. I called this from the first time i saw him throw. The kid doesnt have what it takes. plain and simple. I think one of the big reasons he's still up here is because this teams bats are so bad. That his bat off the bench and bat in the games he starts is actually one of the better ones on the team. And thats sad.

Numbers that lack compared to who?

Jefferson24
06-24-2009, 03:35 PM
He has kept us in the game in most of his starts. That's what a 5th starter is supposed to do.

In order to keep this team in most games he needs to be pitching a shut out. Your right though his numbers aren't that bad. But if they are losing most of the time he pitches it makes it easy to call for change.

Captain Hook
06-24-2009, 03:36 PM
I feel like the same guys who are satisfied with Owings are probably the guys who aren't sick of finishing in 5th place every year.

Couldn't be more wrong about that.




If you're going to make the playoffs, you can't have what Owings gives you as the fifth starter. You gotta strive for better then that, some how some way. I don't know who it is, but as long as Owings is our 5th starter, we just aren't going to be able to contend.

Owings will never be the reason the Reds don't make the playoffs.If you really think this your not paying attention.The Reds have had chances to win most of the games he has started.Even the bad starts.As mentioned before the team has far bigger problems.If you wanted to argue that last season the the 5th spot in the rotation was the reason the team failed then ok.Even when Owings struggles he has given 5 ip almost every start.Last season the 5th spot was good for about 3 to 4 innings and a multiple run deficit.It really hurt the team not only every 5th day but through the whole week.You can't say that about Owings.

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 03:39 PM
In order to keep this team in most games he needs to be pitching a shut out. Your right though his numbers aren't that bad. But if they are losing most of the time he pitches it makes it easy to call for change.

LOL I'm sorry but that is just funny. So you are saying if Owings comes out and only gives up 2 runs a game over his next 6 starts and loses 5 of them that is some how his fault?:confused:

Jefferson24
06-24-2009, 03:42 PM
If one of the other 4 pitchers goes down or gets traded then have Bailey in the 4 spot and Owings in the 5. You give either of those guys a little run support and this can be an exciting team to follow.

Jefferson24
06-24-2009, 03:46 PM
LOL I'm sorry but that is just funny. So you are saying if Owings comes out and only gives up 2 runs a game over his next 6 starts and loses 5 of them that is some how his fault?:confused:

It's not his fault and he will have done all you can ask for. It just gets old seeing guys with twice as many loses as wins getting ran out there time after time.

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=bgwilly31;1902923]

Numbers that lack compared to who?

Other 5th starters around the league. The guy just isnt a good pitcher. Instead of defending him by saying They all are are like that. Which somebody earlier proved they arent all like that. Explain to me why is he a good pitcher. What owings pitch is deadly>? Does he ever just OWN a guy at the plate>?

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 04:14 PM
We all know there are bigger problems than our 5th starter.

But trying to argue our 5th starter isnt a problem at all.......

There's lots of pieces to a big red machine.
They all have to be working correctly in order to recreate what once was. And right now owings is one of those faulty pieces.
The main thing that ticks me off about the owings situation is i dont see why we dont give others a shot at making an impression.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-24-2009, 04:58 PM
Once again, lets think logically here. The guy has a 4.87 ERA. The NL average ERA is 4.25 OVERALL. I don't have stats for the 5th slot in the rotation out there overall in MLB, but I'm guessing he's got some of the best numbers for that slot.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-24-2009, 04:59 PM
We all know there are bigger problems than our 5th starter.


The main thing that ticks me off about the owings situation is i dont see why we dont give others a shot at making an impression.

Volquez is out. Maloney has had two starts. Bailey has had a start and is getting another one. Where exactly are those guys not getting shots? We only have 4 starters right now, period.

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 05:26 PM
[QUOTE=Lockdwn11;1902929]

Other 5th starters around the league. The guy just isnt a good pitcher. Instead of defending him by saying They all are are like that. Which somebody earlier proved they arent all like that. Explain to me why is he a good pitcher. What owings pitch is deadly>? Does he ever just OWN a guy at the plate>?

Well then you are dead wrong.

bgwilly31
06-24-2009, 05:37 PM
I dont have a problem with Owings either...not for a #5 anyway. But I decided to check a few other good options that other teams have as a #5 just for fun.

Houston
Russ Ortiz 3-3 3.47era

Oakland
V.Mazzaro 2-2 2.56era (only 31 ip though)

StLouis
B.Thompson 2-2 3.89

Cubs
Randy Wells 1-2 2.57

TB
J.Niemann 6-4 4.23


so, to compare to the one post about plug in anyone's 5th starter and get the same results, I cant agree. I only checked about 10 teams and these 5 were superior. I'd say Owings is somewhere in the middle, closer to the bottom half than the top actually.




Well then you are dead wrong.

:dunno:

Lockdwn11
06-24-2009, 05:43 PM
:dunno:

You just use 5 pitcher to prove a point? I could use 5 different pitchers and thier stats to make Owings look like Cy Young. Pretty much meaningless don't you think?

BLEEDS
06-24-2009, 05:49 PM
Ownings is not the answer. He may be fine in a long relief role, or a spot start now and then. Bring Bailey up, give him 10-15 starts.

I think we will see Bailey up for 10-15 games regardless:

""
From a JohnFay tweet:

Volquez is pushed back after MRI finds inflammation. Return before All Star break unlikely.
""

Maloney is back in AAA. Bailey should stick up in the bigs for awhile.

See if his newfound splitter out pitch can work against Major Leaguers.
If he can still dial it up to 96, anybody/everybody is going to have a hard time laying off that pitch.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

REDSEER
06-24-2009, 05:52 PM
Brad Thompson is not a starter for the Cards. He is the long man who gets a spot start every once in a while. 4 GS does not equal 5th starter. Try Todd Wellemeyer (6-7, 5.53)

I thought Brian Moehler (4-4, 6.43) was the Astros 5th starter? Owings sure looks better than that.

Most teams don't have 5 bonafide starters. Owings is fine as the 5th for the Reds.

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 06:42 PM
Owings was also asked to do something that no other 5th starter has been asked to do....pitch 5+ innings before his scheduled start time during the midnight hours EST in San Diego. That took about 3 starts for him to get back to what he started out in May, pitching very well and winning games. Before last night's start, he'd pitched well in his past few games, and so, he has been improving when you look at it this way.

Fortunately, I know that Jockety sees it this way, too, and nothing's going to change on the Owings front with this team. Owings has been a positive for this team.

I whole-heartedly expect Owings to either Win his next start, or give up 2 or fewer earned runs. If he was not a worthy #5 starter, then this will not happen, but it will happen.

Owings has been a #4 starter since Volquez went down, and has pitched well enough for that, too. With this newest of news on Volquez, I expect Owings will step up to the challenge. He's got the moxie to do so.

If Owings posts a sub-4.30 ERA over his next 5 starts, will those who doubt that he's worthy of being the #5/#4 starter admit that he's worthy of it? I picked sub-4.30 because that's an very good number for a #4 starter.

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 06:50 PM
6 IP 2 ER
5.1 IP 1 ER
6 IP 2 ER

These were Owings' three starts BEFORE last night's. Just because the guy had a bad start in 1 out of 4 doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. Look at the numbers. He has kept us in the game in most of his starts. That's what a 5th starter is supposed to do.

Those three games right there end this discussion.

Kingspoint
06-24-2009, 06:52 PM
In order to keep this team in most games he needs to be pitching a shut out. Your right though his numbers aren't that bad. But if they are losing most of the time he pitches it makes it easy to call for change.

Then that makes Harang not worthy of being the 5th starter.

Boston Red
06-27-2009, 08:53 PM
Hard to believe we're using Owings over Bailey.

My God, Bailey is awful every time he comes up.

Plus Plus
06-28-2009, 12:18 AM
As a general rule, it is hard to identify sarcasm in text. (That is not sarcasm)

Owings is just fine as a 5th starter. He is young, cheap, and has a track record of being a successful (although not dominating) MLB level starter during both his years in Arizona (his injured starts withheld) and Cincinnati. In fact, I would argue that he is as good of a 5th starter that the Reds have had in the last ten years or more.

As fun as it is to play the "what if?" game, the fact of the matter is this:

Maloney is not starting in MLB yet (regularly) because he is not yet a MLB quality starter.
Bailey is not starting in MLB yet (regularly) because he is not yet a MLB quality starter.
Pitcher X in the Reds' farm system is not starting in MLB yet (regularly) because he is not yet a MLB quality starter.

Projections are great, but they are far from being a be-all-end-all with regards to how players perform. I think a lot of people take for granted the skill set required to be an average MLB starter. This is a very hard game and you can't just plug in toolsey player after toolsey player, or successful minor leaguer after successful minor leaguer without looking at much more. If you do, you become Jim Bowden.

Caveman Techie
06-28-2009, 08:10 AM
How many times are we going to have to go through this? Owings is a decent to good 5th starter, just because you guys have some weird fascination for Homer quit trying to knock Owings.

He gives the Reds a chance to win the games he pitches just about everytime he goes out there. It's not his fault that this lineup can't produce any runs.

Ghosts of 1990
06-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Last night wasn't Homer's best effort by a long shot. But homer walking the town still has better stuff then Micah Owings.... which allows us to win. God this decision is plain as day.

Plus Plus
06-28-2009, 11:38 AM
Last night wasn't Homer's best effort by a long shot. But homer walking the town still has better stuff then Micah Owings.... which allows us to win. God this decision is plain as day.

Homer @ 7 walks and 5IP > Owings' ceiling?

I would agree that Homer's ceiling is probably higher than Owings' ceiling, but saying that you prefer the first of those lines is just an asinine statement. Owings has a track record of being successful and Bailey has a track record of being inconsistent and walking the town EVERY TIME. Owings allows us to win as well- this doesn't have to be an either-or situation.

Regardless of how you feel, we are going to get to see a lot of these two guys- probably at least 4 or 5 starts by Homer in the coming weeks. That will tell you if Homer is better than Owings, and if Homer belongs in the MLB or if he should try and found the AAAA league along with Brandon Larson.

Boston Red
06-28-2009, 12:53 PM
God this decision is plain as day.

Exactly. So far it's Owings by a landslide. If Homer can put a leash on his stuff, maybe it will someday be him.

Ghosts of 1990
06-28-2009, 12:55 PM
Homer @ 7 walks and 5IP > Owings' ceiling?

I would agree that Homer's ceiling is probably higher than Owings' ceiling, but saying that you prefer the first of those lines is just an asinine statement. Owings has a track record of being successful and Bailey has a track record of being inconsistent and walking the town EVERY TIME. Owings allows us to win as well- this doesn't have to be an either-or situation.

Regardless of how you feel, we are going to get to see a lot of these two guys- probably at least 4 or 5 starts by Homer in the coming weeks. That will tell you if Homer is better than Owings, and if Homer belongs in the MLB or if he should try and found the AAAA league along with Brandon Larson.

I believe if Homer got 32 starts (a big league season) and Owings got 32 starts and you compared opposing batting average, record, strikeouts, and other stats that matter, Homer would have them all. He should have been the 5th starter since breaking spring training, not Owings. Just one man's opinion.

Caveman Techie
06-28-2009, 12:59 PM
Last night wasn't Homer's best effort by a long shot. But homer walking the town still has better stuff then Micah Owings.... which allows us to win. God this decision is plain as day.

You are simply amazing. Homer could sneeze and wipe snot on your shoulder and you would swear that that is proof he should be starting over Owings.

Caveman Techie
06-28-2009, 01:00 PM
Homer's ceiling is much higher than Owings, yes I agree with that. But ceiling don't mean nothing if you don't ever reach it.

Ghosts of 1990
06-28-2009, 01:28 PM
Micah has us in an early hole again. Strange.

Boston Red
06-28-2009, 01:35 PM
Micah has us in an early hole again. Strange.

Seriously, it's 1-0!

jfar23
06-28-2009, 02:28 PM
I really don't understand how Owings pitches as well as he does with his stuff and control but he is some how pretty average in spite of it.

Caveman Techie
06-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Yeah that Owings guys is really horrible today... huh?

schmidty622
06-28-2009, 03:30 PM
Micah has us in an early hole again. Strange.

Where are you now?

I was really impressed with Homer's stuff last night and I think that he should have the chance to finish out the year in the Reds rotation. He needs the time to learn the major league zone and face big league batters. At this point that is the only way he will get better.

That being said, I think that Owings can give the Reds valuable innings as well. If they finish this game out with a win he the Reds will ALREADY have more wins out of the 5th starters spot than they did all of last year. Owings is a league average pitcher, and there is nothing wrong with having one or two of those in your rotation.

I think when push comes to shove Homer and Owings will both be in the rotation, as I see one of either Harang or Arroyo getting moved this summer.

Gizmo
06-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Yay, Owings is finally out of the game after 6+ innings of 1 run ball. Let's see if we can't turn this game around now. Horrible that we run this out every 5th or so day. :rolleyes:

LouisvilleCARDS
06-28-2009, 03:37 PM
Micah has us in an early hole again. Strange.

:owned::owned::owned:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

How's that crow taste son? :laugh:

Ghosts of 1990
06-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I'm clearly happy that Owings sparkled today. I'm a Reds fan. But Owings is good start, bad start. I don't think he'll ever have extended success in our ballpark especially. Obviously it's nice that he pitched us to a win today but he's still 5-8. So here I am. Micah Owings threw really well today and I'm happy. The Indians are not a good team and good teams will make you pay for 4 BB and throwing balls down the middle of the plate. They got themselves out a lot today.

Maldez
06-28-2009, 10:00 PM
I'm clearly happy that Owings sparkled today. I'm a Reds fan. But Owings is good start, bad start. I don't think he'll ever have extended success in our ballpark especially. Obviously it's nice that he pitched us to a win today but he's still 5-8. So here I am. Micah Owings threw really well today and I'm happy. The Indians are not a good team and good teams will make you pay for 4 BB and throwing balls down the middle of the plate. They got themselves out a lot today.

That's it. Cover all the bases.

Krawhitham
06-28-2009, 10:11 PM
all 5th starters are good start, bad start pitchers

Owings is a better 5th starter than league average

Zimmers
06-28-2009, 10:11 PM
So baileys 7 walks and 5ip is ok but michas 6ip and 4 walks against the same team is crap? Geesh

bigredmechanism
06-28-2009, 10:52 PM
Well, this has turned into an amusing thread.

nemesis
06-28-2009, 10:53 PM
I'm clearly happy that Owings sparkled today. I'm a Reds fan. But Owings is good start, bad start. I don't think he'll ever have extended success in our ballpark especially. Obviously it's nice that he pitched us to a win today but he's still 5-8. So here I am. Micah Owings threw really well today and I'm happy. The Indians are not a good team and good teams will make you pay for 4 BB and throwing balls down the middle of the plate. They got themselves out a lot today.

Harang has the same record... Arroyo's ERA is Higher... He has a better ERA over his last 5 starts than Cueto... BA against is .271 Harang's is .292 Arroyo's is .280... His K rate is higher than Bronson's. Bailey's first 19 starts don't even compare numbers wise to Owings. Owings hs produced alone 10 addtional runs with his bat not including the addtional at bats he helped other postion players get that achieved addtional runs. Yep. He sucks. Lucky he is more than a bat boy...

Shawn_RedsFan
06-28-2009, 10:58 PM
I have said it before I am not a huge Owings fan but as long he is getting his job done I don't care, just like Homer last night not the greatest start but it could have been a lot worse but the thing that matters is we got the W on both days.

Why are we ALWAYS bashing our own players??

Zimmers
06-28-2009, 11:05 PM
I have said it before I am not a huge Owings fan but as long he is getting his job done I don't care, just like Homer last night not the greatest start but it could have been a lot worse but the thing that matters is we got the W on both days.

Why are we ALWAYS bashing our own players??

I think thats the point really. I mean our staff isnt full of aces and yet we wanna say a guy with a era of under 5 is not worthy of the 5 spot? He may not be that good but he gets the job done and a lot of teams would kill 4 his production.

Plus Plus
06-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Unless you have been a lifelong Twins, Braves, Red Sox, or other pitching titan team fan your entire life, then you should not be upset at all with Owings' performance. Watching Belisle, Fogg, and other pathetic excuses for major league pitchers go up and toe the rubber every fifth day makes me very thankful to have Micah Owings on the roster.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 12:09 AM
Owings ERA 4.87
National league average ERA 4.40 for starters

The dude isnt a world beater but he certainly has been a pretty good addition to this team. He's actually a pretty big addition and he can even afford to have a couple bad outings before I would replace him.

Caveman Techie
06-29-2009, 07:57 AM
Owings ERA 4.87
National league average ERA 4.40 for starters

The dude isnt a world beater but he certainly has been a pretty good addition to this team. He's actually a pretty big addition and he can even afford to have a couple bad outings before I would replace him.

Actually, after yesterday's outing his ERA is down to 4.63. Even better.

schmidty622
06-29-2009, 09:34 AM
If the 5th starter in my rotation has a 4.63 ERA, I'm pretty darn happy.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 04:15 PM
Last night wasn't Homer's best effort by a long shot. But homer walking the town still has better stuff then Micah Owings.... which allows us to win. God this decision is plain as day.

C'mon, JB. Your point is proven to be wrong. Owings has pitched better than any starter on the REDS over their last 5 starts. Owings is the best starting pitcher on the team right now. In 4 of his last 5 starts, he's given up 2 runs or less.

Please don't bring this up again for the rest of the year. It's not worthy of a response anymore.

There should be a rule in REDSZONE, "If your point is proven to be wrong, you should admit it, and be forbidden to bring it up again for the rest of the season." But, next time Owings gets a loss or has a bad game, you'll be trying to post this again. Please try hard to refrain from doing so, as doing so doesn't give your point any more credence.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 04:21 PM
Micah has us in an early hole again. Strange.

Only this post was strange.

Where's your "I was wrong" post?

BluegrassRedleg
06-29-2009, 04:22 PM
I realize that, by contributing this post, I am about to contradict what I'll say, but...

This topic needs to die. The only thing worse than a bad topic is bumping the bad topic when the circumstances seem to support that action. Then the circumstances change, and the original post gets reinforced with more bumps.

So I guess what I'm saying is, are we gonna do this all year long with Micah Owings? :p:

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 04:23 PM
I really don't understand how Owings pitches as well as he does with his stuff and control but he is some how pretty average in spite of it.

True. In support of JayBruce32, Owings should not be doing as well as he is (4 of his last 5 games giving up 2 runs or fewer), but he's getting it done when it counts. That right there says that he's got a very good pitcher's mind, and that he's able to make the right pitches at the right time.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 04:25 PM
But Owings is good start, bad start. I don't think he'll ever have extended success in our ballpark especially.

Can you read a boxscore?

4 of his last 5 starts he's given up 2 runs or less.

What do you want him to be?

BLEEDS
06-29-2009, 04:33 PM
If the 5th starter in my rotation has a 4.63 ERA, I'm pretty darn happy.

That should seal it for any sane person.

a 4.63 ERA out of our 3 & 4 would be acceptable as well.

Owings is currently our 3rd best starting pitcher.
Arguing that he's not our #5 is really moot right now.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Hondo
06-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Listen here...

If Dusty just takes the guy out after 100 Pitches, Everything will be fine... He is Lucky Dusty didn't leave gim in there after he hit that Batter last night... I didn't think Dusty should push him then... I am glad Danny didn't let that Runner in!

bgwilly31
06-29-2009, 06:43 PM
So now owings is an allstar because he pitched well against the TERRIBLE indians.

Good point fellas. OP = PWND:rolleyes:

This little stretch before the break will tell a short tale about the owings vs Homer battle. Not the indians series.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 07:16 PM
So now owings is an allstar because he pitched well against the TERRIBLE indians.

Good point fellas. OP = PWND:rolleyes:

This little stretch before the break will tell a short tale about the owings vs Homer battle. Not the indians series.

What's the negative you see in allowing 2 runs or less in 4 of his last 5 starts, something no other REDS starter has done?

Don't you like having a pitcher play for the REDS who does that well right now?

Boston Red
06-29-2009, 07:47 PM
So now owings is an allstar because he pitched well against the TERRIBLE indians.

Good point fellas. OP = PWND:rolleyes:


The Indians stink, but not because of their offense. They've scored the third most runs in MLB this year.

Kingspoint
06-29-2009, 07:51 PM
The Indians stink, but not because of their offense. They've scored the third most runs in MLB this year.

Great point. Coming from someone who lives where the Great John Adams lived, I would expect nothing less.

defender
06-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Over all, Owings has been a solid #5. However his game 2 starts ago was very frustrating. He would get ahead, but could not get guys out. Too many pitchers, too many base runners, too many runs. Not enough getting the team off the field and up to bat.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-29-2009, 10:11 PM
The Indians stink, but not because of their offense. They've scored the third most runs in MLB this year.

WOW. LOL. Man the hammer has been laid down on bgwilly and jaybruce32 here. I guess it shows who needs to do their research before making stupid posts. Maybe the moderators would give this board a little more respect if some people didn't make stupid emotional comments.

I don't get it, whats the vendetta against Owings? I guess some Dunn fans are going to perpetually hate him just because he was traded for him in a contract year.

Captain Hook
06-29-2009, 10:31 PM
WOW. LOL. Man the hammer has been laid down on bgwilly and jaybruce32 here. I guess it shows who needs to do their research before making stupid posts. Maybe the moderators would give this board a little more respect if some people didn't make stupid emotional comments.

I don't get it, whats the vendetta against Owings? I guess some Dunn fans are going to perpetually hate him just because he was traded for him in a contract year.

The argument has been rather lopsided.The truth is though that the Owings hatters may just end up getting their way long before the Taveras and Hernandez hatters do.Bailey has a chance to impress and if he pitches at least equal to Owings I think he'll be rewarded the 5th spot in the rotation with Owings going to the pen.As much as I hate to admit it that would be the best move for the Reds imo.

davereds24
06-29-2009, 10:39 PM
The argument has been rather lopsided.The truth is though that the Owings hatters may just end up getting their way long before the Taveras and Hernandez hatters do.Bailey has a chance to impress and if he pitches at least equal to Owings I think he'll be rewarded the 5th spot in the rotation with Owings going to the pen.As much as I hate to admit it that would be the best move for the Reds imo.

Volquez isn't even close to coming back, and by then Arroyo might be out. I don't see Owings leaving the rotation anytime soon.

Captain Hook
06-29-2009, 10:48 PM
Volquez isn't even close to coming back, and by then Arroyo might be out. I don't see Owings leaving the rotation anytime soon.

Your right.There is a lot that can happen between now and when Volquez comes back.I just have a feeling that Owings could be the odd man out when that time comes.

Plus Plus
06-29-2009, 11:26 PM
I feel that this thread is going to serve as nothing more than a bashfest on the OP. Enough has been said regarding this-- I recommend that a mod close this thread in order to prevent singling out the OP and making him the target of excessive criticism any longer.

If people want to keep talking about Owings' performance as the 5th starter, maybe a fresh start would be good. Every other thread seems to read something like "OMG JB32 IS PWND." It is tiring and pointless, and unfair to him for voicing an opinion (as incorrect as other members of the forum might see it to be).

Boston Red
06-29-2009, 11:32 PM
I feel that this thread is going to serve as nothing more than a bashfest on the OP. Enough has been said regarding this-- I recommend that a mod close this thread in order to prevent singling out the OP and making him the target of excessive criticism any longer.


This is about the third of fourth time he's started this exact thread. A better idea might be to find the others and merge this one with it.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-30-2009, 12:48 AM
I feel that this thread is going to serve as nothing more than a bashfest on the OP. Enough has been said regarding this-- I recommend that a mod close this thread in order to prevent singling out the OP and making him the target of excessive criticism any longer.

If people want to keep talking about Owings' performance as the 5th starter, maybe a fresh start would be good. Every other thread seems to read something like "OMG JB32 IS PWND." It is tiring and pointless, and unfair to him for voicing an opinion (as incorrect as other members of the forum might see it to be).

If he didn't want that response he shouldn't have posted. Lets look at the difference between voicing an opinion and blatant baiting or flaming.

He posted this after ONE bad outing. He didn't say anything to back up his opinion, and then asked others to prove him wrong. They go out and do research, and the guy doesn't even respond to the numbers. There was 3, 4 people who backed up why he was incorrect, then he didn't respond to them after they put in the effort to look it up when he didn't.

It just seems as if the guy has a personal vendetta against him, I don't understand it. His numbers aren't even the worst on the STAFF. And compared to year long #5 starters, I am guessing he's among the league leaders. So no, I don't think the response is unfair, he specifically asked people to prove him wrong and they did, and he didn't respond with anything of his own.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 01:14 AM
Maybe I feel bad because it is too easy of a target. I was one of those who defended Owings and thrashed JB32 as well. It is very obvious that he is wrong based upon mountains and mountains of not only statistical evidence but also physical evidence. I had forgotten about him effectively calling out the other members of this forum to prove him wrong regarding his opinion on Owings. This is my mistake regarding the attitude of the posts in this thread.

I have also noticed that JB32 has not posted in this thread since Owings' last start. Is this common in his previous outbursts against Micah and should we only expect to see him post here again when Owings blows up in a week or two (or more, hopefully)? If so, I understand the attitude in this thread even further.

Captain Hook
06-30-2009, 01:36 AM
JB32 will be ok.I'm sure we'll see him again making his Owings argument and I for one look forward to it.I like being reminded that we have potentially better options at the position then what should be considered a league average 5th starter.How great is that?

Zimmers
06-30-2009, 01:49 AM
My problem with the thread is the point of micha stinking up the joint (which he isnt). If he wanted to say micha throws bp up there compared to homers stuff then I dont think anyone could argue that. The fact is at this moment he is doing a fine job and shouldnt be ridiculed because homer has a much higher ceiling.

Ghosts of 1990
06-30-2009, 09:23 AM
If he didn't want that response he shouldn't have posted. Lets look at the difference between voicing an opinion and blatant baiting or flaming.

He posted this after ONE bad outing. He didn't say anything to back up his opinion, and then asked others to prove him wrong. They go out and do research, and the guy doesn't even respond to the numbers. There was 3, 4 people who backed up why he was incorrect, then he didn't respond to them after they put in the effort to look it up when he didn't.

It just seems as if the guy has a personal vendetta against him, I don't understand it. His numbers aren't even the worst on the STAFF. And compared to year long #5 starters, I am guessing he's among the league leaders. So no, I don't think the response is unfair, he specifically asked people to prove him wrong and they did, and he didn't respond with anything of his own.

I'm not sure where I can find a stat to illustrate that Owings throws the ball down the middle of the plate too often. I feel like this is something I'm just seeing before it's the known consensus in these parts; not a vendetta against a player.

I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.

You guys should feel like you've won the argument when he's come out and had a few starts in a row like the one he's just had. Not now, not yet. I'd rather have thrown a youngster like Maloney or Bailey in the 5th spot to get the 32 or 33 starts rather then a guy who they're going to discover finds too many bats to pitch in Great American Ballpark.

schmidty622
06-30-2009, 09:25 AM
I'm not sure where I can find a stat to illustrate that Owings throws the ball down the middle of the plate too often. I feel like this is something I'm just seeing before it's the known consensus in these parts; not a vendetta against a player.

I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.

You guys should feel like you've won the argument when he's come out and had a few starts in a row like the one he's just had. Not now, not yet. I'd rather have thrown a youngster like Maloney or Bailey in the 5th spot to get the 32 or 33 starts rather then a guy who they're going to discover finds too many bats to pitch in Great American Ballpark.

Can I remind you that our 5th starter last year went 4-21 or something like that?

GIDP
06-30-2009, 09:51 AM
Im confused on what we should want out of our 5th starter because of this thread.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 10:21 AM
If Homer Bailey can manage even a 2/1, or even 1.5/1 K/BB ratio over the time spanning before Volquez's return, then this is something that can be thought about in the most remote sense. As of right now, Owings is mountains better than both Maloney and Bailey. Baliey walks way more people than he should be while using a slow delivery that begs those who he walks to steal bases. If your issue with Owings is that he pitches through the heart of the plate too often, then you should see if you can find highlights of the insane amount of HRs given up by Maloney on his stint up here. The pitches that were getting air mailed out of the stadium were hardly sliders low and away or fastballs in on the hands. They were hangers and straw-straight changes and 4-seamers.

BLEEDS
06-30-2009, 11:03 AM
Im confused on what we should want out of our 5th starter because of this thread.

Well apparently you want him to be "league average" with "league average" stats.

Which really doesn't make sense, since you'd think if he WAS "league average" he wouldn't be a Fifth starter, right?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
06-30-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.


Where exactly are you getting these "projections" from?
By taking his current stats and doubling them?!? That would be a very bad method of prognostication, especially for wins.

Look at WHIP and ERA.

His ERA is respectable, in fact more than respectable for a #5 starter.

His WHIP is a bit higher than average, but I think he'll settle down as the year progresses. He is coming off an injury you know, so he wasn't very sharp early on.

He is less than two years removed from a 27 start season with 4.30 ERA and 1.28 WHIP.

Don't worry about wins - that has more to do with the Team's offense and defense than it does the Pitcher. Surely you know that.

Also, he carries a pretty hefty stick. Career .305 average with an .889 OPS. that surely helps a team.
Heck, he had to crack a 3 run homer in one game to win since the crappy offense only had 3 other hits on a day, luckily one of them was in front of him before he hit the bomb, otherwise we'd have lost on a day where our Terrible 5th starter went 6 innings and gave up 2 runs.

We can do A LOT worse than Owings for a #5 starter, and we have, for like 20 years now...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

improbus
06-30-2009, 11:39 AM
Guess what Reds pitcher has the highest VORP in 2009? That's right, everyone's favorite 5th starter, Micah Owings.
Owings: 5.9
Bronson: .6
Cueto: .3
Harang: -.1
Bailey: -.3
Volquez: -1.6

And, just for fun:
Willy T.: -6.9
Alex Gonzalez: -7.4
Adam Rosales: -8.8

Ohioballplayer
06-30-2009, 01:20 PM
owings is good enough to be our left fielder, we can get any cheap 5th starter to do what he is doing, time to turn him in to the RH version of Rick Ankiel, we could use the right handed bat that Walt says we need!!

Caveman Techie
06-30-2009, 02:12 PM
owings is good enough to be our left fielder, we can get any cheap 5th starter to do what he is doing, time to turn him in to the RH version of Rick Ankiel, we could use the right handed bat that Walt says we need!!

While I can see what you are thinking, I don't think we can throw any "cheap 5th starter" out there. If that were true than why did the Reds have such a problem finding a 5th starter last year? If Homer can find some success with the MLB club this time around and Volquez comes back then your idea would be a more feasible, but right now Owings is better off where he is.

bgwilly31
06-30-2009, 03:16 PM
owings is not good enough as a fielder or at the plate to be a everyday position player.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Converting Owings to a position player would be a lengthy commitment, probably taking two years or more in order to have him be adequate defensively at a position, let along good or great. It would also be an absolutely awful idea considering that he is producing at a very high level as a pitcher. He is unquestionably a viable starting pitcher in MLB, probably being in 95% of rotations right now, and as a #4 or #3 in a lot of those. Ankiel couldn't find the plate with a divining rod when he was converted to an OF. These cases are very very different. Owings is just fine as a SP. His bat makes the lineup just that much stronger, as he is no longer an automatic out (especially compared to Harang at the dish).

xavr1
06-30-2009, 05:45 PM
owings is not good enough as a fielder or at the plate to be a everyday position player.

Neither is half our starting lineup haha. (Not that I endorse moving Owings to LF).

urdun
06-30-2009, 06:30 PM
I think both sides have an argument. Owings is pitching better than his stuff would indicate he should. His funky delivery doesn't allow for consistency when trying to hit the outside part of the plate vs. RH (amongst other stuff related issues). Which is why JB32 complains of him throwing the ball down the middle too much. Start watching where the catcher wants the ball and where the ball ends up when he is pitching. Any major league pitcher and/or pitching coach will tell you that the outside part of the plate is where you make your living (for the most part).

Prime example, Carlos Zambrano hitting that HR off of him. In the 1st AB Zambrano who is a switch hitter couldn't do anything with Owings stuff from the left side because Owings was hitting the outside part of the plate, the nearest part of the plate to his gloveside. Owings can hit that side a lot more consistently. The next AB Zambrano comes up as a RH hitter and goes yard off of him because he couldn't reach that outside corner against him. Now ask yourself why a pitcher would swing RH off of a RHP when he doesn't have too unless he had a darn good reason. Zambrano recognized it and took advantage. I think he's due for a correction against RHB who have not had the greatest of fortune against him to this point with a .268 BABIP against. LHB's have hit him better BA wise but RHB's still have a higher OPS against him due to the superior slugging they do against him.

Then again it should also be noted that as Bleeds mentioned he is still getting his feet under him from surgery. So is it fair to make an assesment in his return year after a serious injury, probably not. He's still young, still cheap and being productive despite his shortcomings so enjoy it while it lasts. Let me add that I do think he will eventually end up a position player ala Ankiel because he has tremendous potential there.

Kingspoint
06-30-2009, 07:51 PM
I feel that this thread is going to serve as nothing more than a bashfest on the OP. Enough has been said regarding this-- I recommend that a mod close this thread in order to prevent singling out the OP and making him the target of excessive criticism any longer.

If people want to keep talking about Owings' performance as the 5th starter, maybe a fresh start would be good. Every other thread seems to read something like "OMG JB32 IS PWND." It is tiring and pointless, and unfair to him for voicing an opinion (as incorrect as other members of the forum might see it to be).


JB32 deserves everything coming towards him because he blatantly refuses to admit when he's wrong. It's that kind of arrogance that bothers people.

After it was pointed out that Owings had given up less than 3 runs in 4 of his last 5 starts, he says, "well just because he pitched "one" good game"...blah, blah, blah. Then after it's pointed out again that he's done that while no other REDS' starter has come close to doing that, he says, "and had a "few" starts in a row like the one he's just had".

First, 4 out of 5 is "one", then 4 out of 5 is just "a few". A forum should be a place where things can be "discussed", but you can't discuss anything with someone who won't listen.

It's not that hard to say, "I was wrong". Try it, JB32, you'll feel much better. You can find at least a dozen posts where I've said it, and anybody worthy of discussing anything here has said it quite often, too.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 08:51 PM
Maybe we should change this thread to "Bronson Arroyo isn't worth of our 5th spot." Games like this seem to be happening more and more often for him. As of right now, I would not even contemplate trading Owings' production for Arroyo's, regardless of money involved. Arroyo is making his contract look more and more like an untradeable albatross with every start.

Caveman Techie
07-01-2009, 08:30 AM
Maybe we should change this thread to "Bronson Arroyo isn't worth of our 5th spot." Games like this seem to be happening more and more often for him. As of right now, I would not even contemplate trading Owings' production for Arroyo's, regardless of money involved. Arroyo is making his contract look more and more like an untradeable albatross with every start.

He would of definitely had more support for his argument then.

improbus
07-01-2009, 08:55 AM
Maybe we should change this thread to "Bronson Arroyo isn't worth of our 5th spot." Games like this seem to be happening more and more often for him. As of right now, I would not even contemplate trading Owings' production for Arroyo's, regardless of money involved. Arroyo is making his contract look more and more like an untradeable albatross with every start.

Bronson is Bronson (I love it when guys get to that point). I looked at the numbers, here is what I saw.
April/May: BaBIP: .325 (Batting Average of Balls in Play)
May: .244
June: .297

Kingspoint
07-01-2009, 07:23 PM
Bronson is Bronson (I love it when guys get to that point). I looked at the numbers, here is what I saw.
April/May: BaBIP: .325 (Batting Average of Balls in Play)
May: .244
June: .297

Batting Average of any type doesn't tell any of the story of how horrible Bronson has been.

If it was only singles, it'd be great, but it's all the Doubles, Triples, and Homeruns that opponents get against him that shows that he just gets pounded nearly every time out.

While that can also be said about Owings, which is probably JB32's point, Owings has been able to get that 3rd out and keep the runs from being scored, while also improving as the season has gone along.

If it wasn't for the sacrifice that Owings made for the team in San Diego about 8 starts ago, Owings would probably have a string of 10 of 11 great outings in a row. The San Diego game screwed him up for the next two games, and then he got back on track to the way he was throwing up to and including that San Diego game....giving up 2 runs or less in nearly every start.

davereds24
07-04-2009, 06:23 PM
:confused:

Maldez
07-04-2009, 06:32 PM
You're right. The way Michah's pitched of late, he's not worthy a the 5th spot....more like the 3rd!

Captain Hook
07-05-2009, 12:54 AM
As of right now if the Nats called and offered Dunn for Owing straight up I wouldn't do it.

He is still young and doesn't cost much.Since the end of May he has had just 1 start where he gave up more then 2 runs.When he gets 3 ABs in a game he almost always contributes to the offense.I can't really figure out what anyone doesn't like about the guy other then that there are starters in the org. that have a higher ceiling.I can live with that.

Griffey012
07-05-2009, 02:49 AM
As of right now if the Nats called and offered Dunn for Owing straight up I wouldn't do it.

He is still young and doesn't cost much.Since the end of May he has had just 1 start where he gave up more then 2 runs.When he gets 3 ABs in a game he almost always contributes to the offense.I can't really figure out what anyone doesn't like about the guy other then that there are starters in the org. that have a higher ceiling.I can live with that.

I went to the game today with a friend who is a Cardinals fan, and after watching the painful loss the previous night I actually felt confident in Owings. And boy did he deliver pitching and hitting! I am with you, I like the guy and he is here to stay, there is no reason him and Homer both can't fit in our rotation.

The problem with him is he doesn't through real hard and doesn't have a big strike out pitch... if he put up the same numbers with a nasty strike out pitch people would be praising him.

SoTxRedsFan
07-06-2009, 03:49 PM
It really is nice to see how much Owings has improved as the season has progressed. Solid ML pitcher. More than I ever thought we'd be able to get for Adam Dunn.

jmac
07-06-2009, 04:17 PM
In the days of Joey Hamilton, Jimmy Haynes & Paul Wilson, Owings would have been our #1.
I am just glad we have improved enough, we are debating him being the #5.
:thumbup:

sivman17
07-06-2009, 05:16 PM
they call it the 5th spot for a reason. he is the 5th best starter on the team. once volquez comes back he will be the 6th. i think he has done a good job in the 5th spot. he has given us about what you would expect and he has done better than then 5th spot did all of last year.

bleedsred
07-06-2009, 05:18 PM
The farther Micah gets from his arm injury, the better he looks.

SoTxRedsFan
07-06-2009, 06:16 PM
they call it the 5th spot for a reason. he is the 5th best starter on the team. once volquez comes back he will be the 6th. i think he has done a good job in the 5th spot. he has given us about what you would expect and he has done better than then 5th spot did all of last year.

The way things look right now, when volquez comes back owings is still in the 5 spot. Arroyo needs to right his ship quick.