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RedLegSuperStar
06-23-2009, 11:34 PM
John Fay Talking To Walt Today-

Id say right now were buyers, he said. Were looking for a hitter. If we did something, it would probably be to bring in a hitter. Getting Joey (Votto) back is going to help.

Walt Jocketty - "I'd Say Right Now We're Buyers" (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ad1749c76-2595-44c9-8714-90a60b96871f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com)

toledodan
06-23-2009, 11:39 PM
John Fay Talking To Walt Today-

Id say right now were buyers, he said. Were looking for a hitter. If we did something, it would probably be to bring in a hitter. Getting Joey (Votto) back is going to help.

Walt Jocketty - "I'd Say Right Now We're Buyers" (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ad1749c76-2595-44c9-8714-90a60b96871f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com)


well he better start buying!:beerme:

Homer Bailey
06-24-2009, 12:17 AM
Here comes Todd Hollandsworth! Weren't we shopping for a LF bat this offseason too?

RedLegSuperStar
06-24-2009, 12:19 AM
Some names being tossed around the Rumor Mill:

A's - Matt Holliday
Angels - Kendry Morales, Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Chone Figgins, & Gary Mathews Jr.
Astros - None
Blue Jays - Alex Rios & Vernon Wells
Braves - Jeff Francoeur
Brewers - None
Cardinals - None
Cubs - None
Diamonbacks - Chad Tracy
Dodgers - Juan Pierre
Giants - None
Indians - Mark DaRosa
Mariners - None
Marlins - Jeremy Hermida & Dan Uggla
Mets - None
Nationals - Lastings Milledge, Adam Dunn, Austin Kearns, & Elijah Dukes
Orioles - Aubrey Huff, Melvin Mora, & Luke Scott
Padres - None
Phillies - None
Pirates - Adam LaRoche & Jack Wilson
Rangers - Catchers, Hank Blalock, Andruw Jones, & Nelson Cruz
Rays - None
Red Sox - Julio Lugo
Rockies - Brad Hawpe & Ryan Spilborghs
Royals - Jose Guillen
Tigers - Magglio Ordonez
Twins - Delmon Young
White Sox - Jermaine Dye
Yankees - None

Caveat Emperor
06-24-2009, 12:56 AM
Bringing in a hitter would be nice, but I'd settle for removing the out-machine at the top of the batting order.

WVRedsFan
06-24-2009, 01:41 AM
Novel idea, Walt. Seems to be the same situation that existed about November of last year. I still think the man has the talent to make changes in this club that will make a difference, but my faith was tested mightily when he signed Taveras, Lincoln and Hairston. Time to made ammends, Walt. Big time.

cincyinco
06-24-2009, 04:14 AM
Sure would have been nice to have been buyers in the offseason..

Oh well.

princeton
06-24-2009, 07:05 AM
talk, like the Reds, is cheap.

Ltlabner
06-24-2009, 07:09 AM
Unless they buy a real short stop and a real LF power-bat my next question would be "why bother?".

Redhook
06-24-2009, 07:24 AM
By the time Walt is ready to buy the Reds will be sellers.

Roy Tucker
06-24-2009, 07:52 AM
I haven't done the research, but my gut feel is that attendance has been pretty good this season. So I don't think the Reds can complain they are poor.

Unassisted
06-24-2009, 08:49 AM
This statement could be laying the ground work to make a future trade look like the Reds won it. We'll see.

redsfan4445
06-24-2009, 09:28 AM
I hope they are also a "Seller" of a one Corrie Patterson TAVERAS!!! If they Reds are asked for a very good prospect in any deal, make that team take Taveras back in the deal in some way.. even pay half of the contract to get out of it..

Benihana
06-24-2009, 10:00 AM
Some names being tossed around the Rumor Mill:

A's - Matt Holliday
Angels - Kendry Morales, Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Chone Figgins, & Gary Mathews Jr.
Astros - None
Blue Jays - Alex Rios & Vernon Wells
Braves - Jeff Francoeur
Brewers - None
Cardinals - None
Cubs - None
Diamonbacks - Chad Tracy
Dodgers - Juan Pierre
Giants - None
Indians - Mark DaRosa
Mariners - None
Marlins - Jeremy Hermida & Dan Uggla
Mets - None
Nationals - Lastings Milledge, Adam Dunn, Austin Kearns, & Elijah Dukes
Orioles - Aubrey Huff, Melvin Mora, & Luke Scott
Padres - None
Phillies - None
Pirates - Adam LaRoche & Jack Wilson
Rangers - Catchers, Hank Blalock, Andruw Jones, & Nelson Cruz
Rays - None
Red Sox - Julio Lugo
Rockies - Brad Hawpe & Ryan Spilborghs
Royals - Jose Guillen
Tigers - Magglio Ordonez
Twins - Delmon Young
White Sox - Jermaine Dye
Yankees - None

From that list, I like Matt Holliday, Alex Rios, Lastings Milledge, and Delmon Young.

My guess is that it wouldn't cost all that much in talent to acquire any of them.


-I'm sure Billy Beane likes Chris Heisey, and I'd like to sell high on him. Would Heisey, Roenicke, and Jordan Smith be enough to net Holliday? Probably not but it would be worth a shot.

-Alex Rios seems to have worn out his welcome in Toronto. With his hefty contract, he probably wouldn't cost too much in terms of talent. Being 5 games back and in desperate need of healthy pitching, would they be willing to take Arroyo, Taveras and Heisey back in exchange for Rios and his contract? Would the Reds?

-I could see the pitching-starved Nats letting Milledge go for Matt Maloney.

-Quoted to be "exceptionally available," Delmon Young could probably be had for a Juan Francisco/David Weathers package, as the Twins are desperate for help in the pen and are taking a long look at LaTroy Hawkins. They also have an organizational hole at 3B with Joe Crede currently manning the position in the bigs.

Out of these potential deals, I especially like the risk/reward profile of the last two in particular. Young, high upside guys that could step in at the ML level right now and not cost a lot in terms of talent.

BRM
06-24-2009, 10:08 AM
I'm pretty sure you can take Brad Hawpe off your list. I can't imagine the Rockies would consider dealing him now.

TRF
06-24-2009, 10:13 AM
I like the idea of Delmon Young.

Canada can keep Rios.

I'd be all over that deal for Holliday. I think Beane would want more. Holliday, after a pretty weak April has been pretty solid for two months now. Moving to a division with SLG friendly parks would be a huge boost to his numbers.

Homer Bailey
06-24-2009, 10:18 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. No no no no no no no to Rios. No.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 10:33 AM
Not trying to turn this into another Rios thread, just commenting on the bats that available. Given the costs associated, I'd probably rank him 4th on my list after Holliday, Milledge and Young.

membengal
06-24-2009, 10:56 AM
What's wrong with Rios?








I keed, I keed...

flyer85
06-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Why does it have to be couched in terms of buyers and sellers. A few years back the Phillies supposedly were sellers and unloaded some veteran players near the break and yet when on to make a run for the playoffs.

The goal should be trying to make the team better and I honestly think the Reds could accomplish that in the short term and the long term(as long as the GM is intelligent in the dealmaking) by trading Arroyo/Harang and some relief pitching as well.

Kc61
06-24-2009, 11:24 AM
The Reds should "sign and trade" for Matt Holliday. I don't know how well it would ultimately work out, he's not having a great year and his success was at Colorado. But it's time for the Reds to stop messing around with stop gaps and marginal players and finally get a major veteran hitter in here.

When was the last time the Reds actually went for a big time player as a free agent or in a trade? Eric Milton, if he qualifies? I may be forgetting somebody, but the Reds are just not "players" in the market for big time players and it hurts them.

It doesn't have to be Holliday, maybe there is somebody comparable. And I'm not suggesting they change their entire philosophy of building from within.

But Alonso is not close to the majors and I see no other Reds prospect who looks like a big time hitter. Frazier could be a good hitter, but I'm talking about getting an all-star caliber bat.

If Walt is right and the team is a buyer, I hope it buys at the luxury goods store.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 11:26 AM
deal some pitching, get a real SS and stop playing bad players who have no upside could go a long way to winning more games.

dfs
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
deal some pitching, get a real SS and stop playing bad players who have no upside could go a long way to winning more games.
Can you make an outfield this year out of what's in the reds system?

Bruce/Dickerson/Nix....It's all lefthanded.
If you don't like Dickerson you can put Stubbs in there...It's still lefthanded.
you can put Hopper in there, but the idea is to make a good outfield.
I guess some platoon of Nix/Gomes would improve it slightly.

They need an outfielder. They needed one during the offseason and got Taveres instead.

The medical staff says Gonzales will be back in 5 weeks. We can live with Hairston/Janish till then, but you are correct Long terrm, they do need a shortstop as well.

I still think Maloney would be an interesting catch for some team. He's not gonna succeed in this ballpark, but he could thrive in Colorodo or San Diego.

HotCorner
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
Matt Holliday and upgrade at SS. Can DeRosa play SS? If so, how well?

flyer85
06-24-2009, 11:53 AM
Can you make an outfield this year out of what's in the reds system?
certainly a better one can be made than Nix/Taveras/Bruce. I could even see the Reds having some success with Janish as the SS, at a minimum there is no reason to play him behind Gonzo/Hairston.

IMO the key to the remainder of the season is getting EE back and having him play well.


I still think Maloney would be an interesting catch for some team. He's not gonna succeed in this ballpark, but he could thrive in Colorodo or San Diego.I agree with that. He is an extreme FB pitcher, he needs to be in a big ball park.

Homer Bailey
06-24-2009, 12:01 PM
Matt Holliday and upgrade at SS. Can DeRosa play SS? If so, how well?

139 career games there with a UZR of -3.9. Has not played there with any consistency since the early 2000s.

schroomytunes
06-24-2009, 12:05 PM
I dunno I dont think we are looking to add big names, just guys that are solid B type players that can round out a roster. If I'm Walt than I'm calling Colorado on these guys:

1)Ryan Spilborghs-He's 30, hits @.280-.290, plays all 3 OF spots and is RH.

2)Clint Barmes- versatile enough to play 2b/SS hits .260-.280 would fill the large gap right now at SS

Reds trade: Matt Maloney(AAA), Carlos Fisher(MLB) and Ramon Ramirez(AAA)

or

Reds acquire Mark DeRosa from Cleveland

for Maloney and Ramirez

kaldaniels
06-24-2009, 12:07 PM
I see it mentioned often..."There is no such thing as buyers/sellers....just try to make the team better." Why people dispute this is beyond me.

I would break it down as this.

Buyers = going for short term sucess at expense of long term prospects
Seller = building for long term sucess by sacrificing short term results

At some point in the season, management must weigh out the consequences of going for a short term gain and adjust their trade strategy accordingly.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 12:09 PM
I see it mentioned often..."There is no such thing as buyers/sellers....just try to make the team better." Why people dispute this is beyond me.

I would break it down as this.

Buyers = going for short term sucess at expense of long term prospects
Seller = building for long term sucess by sacrificing short term results

a few years ago Pat Gillick was able to do both with some judicious trading near the break.

kaldaniels
06-24-2009, 12:13 PM
a few years ago Pat Gillick was able to do both with some judicious trading near the break.

What year and what players...just curious. If you are discussing the Abreu year, I don't see how you can argue that trading Abreu helped their post-season run...in fact if that is the year you are mentioning, you could easily debate the Abreu deal kept them out of the post season.

TRF
06-24-2009, 12:14 PM
Can you make an outfield this year out of what's in the reds system?

Bruce/Dickerson/Nix....It's all lefthanded.
If you don't like Dickerson you can put Stubbs in there...It's still lefthanded.
you can put Hopper in there, but the idea is to make a good outfield.
I guess some platoon of Nix/Gomes would improve it slightly.

They need an outfielder. They needed one during the offseason and got Taveres instead.

The medical staff says Gonzales will be back in 5 weeks. We can live with Hairston/Janish till then, but you are correct Long terrm, they do need a shortstop as well.

I still think Maloney would be an interesting catch for some team. He's not gonna succeed in this ballpark, but he could thrive in Colorodo or San Diego.

Stubbs is RH.

But other than Dusty, who cares what hand they bat with? I don't care that LaRussa brings in a LH specialist if the Reds are up by 6 runs. Score early with GOOD hitters.

HotCorner
06-24-2009, 12:23 PM
Anyone interested in Cristian Guzman at SS?

He's a free agent at season's end.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Anyone interested in Cristian Guzman at SS?

He's a free agent at season's end.no. A long term solution is needed, not a over 30 guy with no plate discipline. Reds have too hackers as it is.

M2
06-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Why does it have to be couched in terms of buyers and sellers.

Fair point. I fully expect the Reds to sell Harang next month and claim they were buying whatever prospect bats come in return.

traderumor
06-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Matt Holliday and upgrade at SS. Can DeRosa play SS? If so, how well?I think DeRosa at SS would make Richie Aurilia look like a gold glover in his Cincy days.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 12:32 PM
Fair point. I fully expect the Reds to sell Harang next month and claim they were buying whatever prospect bats come in return.if they have a decent replacement it is possible that even though Harang leaves it is possible(albeit maybe not probable) that they could get better in the short term as well. A very good GM could possibly pull that kind of a move.

HotCorner
06-24-2009, 12:33 PM
I think DeRosa at SS would make Richie Aurilia look like a gold glover in his Cincy days.

That's what I figured.

Falls City Beer
06-24-2009, 12:36 PM
Fair point. I fully expect the Reds to sell Harang next month and claim they were buying whatever prospect bats come in return.

I doubt it. Walt's a pretty bird-in-the-hand guy. And Harang's contract is not the cash incinerator that Arroyo's is.

Chip R
06-24-2009, 12:45 PM
I doubt it. Walt's a pretty bird-in-the-hand guy. And Harang's contract is not the cash incinerator that Arroyo's is.


No, but he's not exactly making league minimum. The problem with Bronson is that other GMs are going to look at that contract in this economy knowing what he does on the field and are going to wonder what else Walt has to deal. Harang's the only other real attractive bargaining chip he has to offer.

alexad
06-24-2009, 01:14 PM
A's - Matt Holliday Worth a shot, but will cost a bunch
Angels - Kendry Morales, Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Chone Figgins, & Gary Mathews Jr. Pass
Astros - None
Blue Jays - Alex Rios & Vernon Wells Pass
Braves - Jeff Francoeur Pass
Brewers - None
Cardinals - None
Cubs - None
Diamonbacks - Chad Tracy Pass
Dodgers - Juan Pierre Pass
Giants - None
Indians - Mark DaRosa Pass
Mariners - None
Marlins - Jeremy Hermida & Dan Uggla I would make some phone calls. Uggla at Second and Phillips to shortMets - None
Nationals - Lastings Milledge, Adam Dunn, Austin Kearns, & Elijah Dukes I know you do not want to hear it, but Dunn would be huge bat to get back
Orioles - Aubrey Huff, Melvin Mora, & Luke Scott PASS
Padres - None
Phillies - None
Pirates - Adam LaRoche & Jack Wilson Maybe Jack Wilson
Rangers - Catchers, Hank Blalock, Andruw Jones, & Nelson Cruz Hank would be an upgrade at 3rd but cost a ton.Rays - None
Red Sox - Julio Lugo Pass
Rockies - Brad Hawpe & Ryan Spilborghs Pass
Royals - Jose Guillen Been there done that
Tigers - Magglio Ordonez NO
Twins - Delmon Young Would make a phone call to see what we could do
White Sox - Jermaine Dye Missed our chance
Yankees - None

Benihana
06-24-2009, 01:33 PM
No, but he's not exactly making league minimum. The problem with Bronson is that other GMs are going to look at that contract in this economy knowing what he does on the field and are going to wonder what else Walt has to deal. Harang's the only other real attractive bargaining chip he has to offer.

That still doesn't mean that Walt has to trade him (Harang.)

No way do I trade Harang right now, unless there is something MAJOR coming back in return. It just doesn't make any sense. With guys like Frazier, Alonso, Stubbs, etc. all being ready in the next year or two, there aren't that many major holes that could even be filled by such a deal. IMO, Harang can still be a solid #3 in the rotation come 2011, let alone 2010. If the Reds don't plan on competing in 2011, then what's the point?

M2
06-24-2009, 01:52 PM
I doubt it. Walt's a pretty bird-in-the-hand guy. And Harang's contract is not the cash incinerator that Arroyo's is.

Think of all the money they can save if they trade both.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 01:59 PM
That still doesn't mean that Walt has to trade him (Harang.)
Walt doesn't have to trade him but I sure wouldn't want the Reds to preclude it if a good deal comes along.

I honestly have no idea what Walt might be up to.

kaldaniels
06-24-2009, 02:02 PM
Think of all the money they can save if they trade both.

I just don't like the opinion...X is making too much, we have to move him. Look, every winning franchise over the years is gonna have a few guys who are overpaid. You speak of money saved...the difficult part is spending that same money and getting more production for that amount. With the 20 million or so spend on 2 solid productive major league starting pitchers...what are you going to spend it on to replace them? Will the players acquired with the 20 million exceed the value lost from your starting rotation...if you can do so...great, but as an above poster spoke of Walt...sometimes the bird is the hand is worth keeping. Dumping 2 solid starting pitchers, all arguments about them aside, is always a risky move.

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Walt doesn't have to trade him but I sure wouldn't want the Reds to preclude it if a good deal comes along.

I honestly have no idea what Walt might be up to.

Hopefully something, and sooner rather than later, if he is truly a buyer and has a chance to make a difference.

Otherwise, go into sell mode and pick up some more prospects.

M2
06-24-2009, 02:17 PM
I just don't like the opinion...X is making too much, we have to move him. Look, every winning franchise over the years is gonna have a few guys who are overpaid. You speak of money saved...the difficult part is spending that same money and getting more production for that amount. With the 20 million or so spend on 2 solid productive major league starting pitchers...what are you going to spend it on to replace them? Will the players acquired with the 20 million exceed the value lost from your starting rotation...if you can do so...great, but as an above poster spoke of Walt...sometimes the bird is the hand is worth keeping. Dumping 2 solid starting pitchers, all arguments about them aside, is always a risky move.

I agree with you completely. Yet the Reds tend to be of a somewhat different mindset. A poor next few weeks and I'm guessing they go into "build for next year" mode.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 02:17 PM
Walt doesn't have to trade him but I sure wouldn't want the Reds to preclude it if a good deal comes along.

I honestly have no idea what Walt might be up to.

Sure, but like I said- what kind of deal would you be looking for? I mean specifics: who is a realistic target that you would like to trade Harang for, and does that make the 2010-2011 team significantly better?

flyer85
06-24-2009, 02:38 PM
Sure, but like I said- what kind of deal would you be looking for? I mean specifics: who is a realistic target that you would like to trade Harang for, and does that make the 2010-2011 team significantly better?
I'd send him to the Phillies for Carrasco and Taylor. Phillies are dying for starting pitching.

BTW, I'd even send the Phillies a reliever to get it done.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 02:51 PM
I'd send him to the Phillies for Carrasco and Taylor. Phillies are dying for starting pitching.

BTW, I'd even send the Phillies a reliever to get it done.

And you think that makes the Reds a better team for 2010-2011?

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:00 PM
And you think that makes the Reds a better team for 2010-2011?without a doubt. The trick for a GM is knowing when to get rid of the veteran and go with the young guys. Otherwise you end up keeping the veteran too long and as the performance nose dives you are paying them way too much money.

BTW, I think Taylor could the Reds LF for the next 10 years. The Reds really don't have a good internal option for LF (sorry but Frazier hasn't shown the pop you need out of a LF, I would prefer him to be a 3B)

traderumor
06-24-2009, 03:11 PM
without a doubt. The trick for a GM is knowing when to get rid of the veteran and go with the young guys. Otherwise you end up keeping the veteran too long and as the performance nose dives you are paying them way too much money.

BTW, I think Taylor could the Reds LF for the next 10 years. The Reds really don't have a good internal option for LF (sorry but Frazier hasn't shown the pop you need out of a LF, I would prefer him to be a 3B)Another trick is not to keep on churning vets to dump a contract and pick up prospect fodder for the appearance of "getting young," when it is really just "being cheap."

bucksfan2
06-24-2009, 03:15 PM
Another trick is not to keep on churning vets to dump a contract and pick up prospect fodder for the appearance of "getting young," when it is really just "being cheap."

It depends on what you use that money on. Lets say the Reds trade either Harang or Arroyo this season for prospects. One of which is major league ready the other two or are currently in A+ ball. It would be cheap if they just took that money and pocketed it. But what if they took that money and extended Votto and Volquez while also putting money aside to buy out Cueto and Bruce's arbitration years?

Some times when you look cheap you are actually thinking with foresight rather than hindsight.

TRF
06-24-2009, 03:28 PM
without a doubt. The trick for a GM is knowing when to get rid of the veteran and go with the young guys. Otherwise you end up keeping the veteran too long and as the performance nose dives you are paying them way too much money.

BTW, I think Taylor could the Reds LF for the next 10 years. The Reds really don't have a good internal option for LF (sorry but Frazier hasn't shown the pop you need out of a LF, I would prefer him to be a 3B)

Frazier has 28 doubles in just under half a season.

That's plenty of pop.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 03:28 PM
without a doubt. The trick for a GM is knowing when to get rid of the veteran and go with the young guys. Otherwise you end up keeping the veteran too long and as the performance nose dives you are paying them way too much money.


And I disagree with the notion that Harang is primed for a "nose dive" when he just turned 31, and never threw more than 160 innings in a season until he was 27 years old.

Since he turned 27, he has given the Reds at least 210 innings of sub-3.85 ERA (including his pace this year) every year except 2008 when he was obviously mismanaged and subsequently injured. Given his age and his mileage, there's no reason to believe that won't continue, at least, for the next year or two.

I believe Aaron Harang will be a very decent pitcher and earn his paycheck through the end of his contract. Not to mention, he is a leader and a stabilizing personality in the clubhouse. You need at least one veteran on a pitching staff- especially on a staff so young, and I would argue that the value of having Harang as at least a very good #3 in 2010 and 2011 (the years when you're really trying to compete) is worth more than a guy that may or may not be the Reds' starting LF for in two years.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Another trick is not to keep on churning vets to dump a contract and pick up prospect fodder for the appearance of "getting young," when it is really just "being cheap."which is why if Harang is dealt they have to be "real" prospects. Not just a handful of guys that their current team is skeptical about. Quality is far more important than quantity.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 03:34 PM
which is why if Harang is dealt they have to be "real" prospects. Not just a handful of guys that their current team is skeptical about. Quality is far more important than quantity.

Brandon Claussen was a "real" prospect.
Rob Bell was a "real" prospect.
Ruben Mateo was a "real" prospect.

Carlos Carrasco has a 5.20 ERA this year in AAA and a WHIP > 1.40 over the last three years since A ball. Is he a "real" prospect?

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:34 PM
Frazier has 28 doubles in just under half a season.

That's plenty of pop.would be great for a 3b but not exactly what I want from a LF. The 5 HRs and sub 500 SLG% with a .326 BA is not the best case for a LF.

I really am a bit mystified by his moving off of 3b. Do the Reds believe he cannot handle the position defensively? Or do they beleive LF is his quickest route to the majors? (and that is the reason for the move)

3Bs that can hit are a lot harder to find than LFs.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 03:37 PM
would be great for a 3b but not exactly what I want from a LF. The 5 HRs and sub 500 SLG% with a .326 BA is not the best case for a LF.

I really am a bit mystified by his moving off of 3b. Do the Reds believe he cannot handle the position defensively? Or do they beleive LF is his quickest route to the majors? (and that is the reason for the move)

3Bs that can hit are a lot harder to find than LFs.

I'm holding out hope that the move was just temporary, and he'll be back to 3B as soon as he is promoted to Louisville (which I am also hoping happens any day now.)

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:39 PM
Brandon Claussen was a "real" prospect.
Rob Bell was a "real" prospect.
Ruben Mateo was a "real" prospect.

Carlos Carrasco has a 5.20 ERA this year in AAA and a WHIP > 1.40 over the last three years since A ball. Is he a "real" prospect?were they?

Claussen had just come off a major arm injury(TJ surgery).

Mateo was basically a failed prospect at that point and coming off of a severe broken leg who had really struggled in 3 shots at the majors.

Bell had never pitched above A ball. The fact that the Braves were willing to deal him made me skeptical as Schuerholz has mostly been outstanding at creating hype and then dealing a prospect when his value was the highest.

_Sir_Charles_
06-24-2009, 03:41 PM
Considering our needs, I'm a bit surprised nobody's mentioned Jack Wilson yet.

That salary isn't THAT out of whack is it?

traderumor
06-24-2009, 03:43 PM
It depends on what you use that money on. Lets say the Reds trade either Harang or Arroyo this season for prospects. One of which is major league ready the other two or are currently in A+ ball. It would be cheap if they just took that money and pocketed it. But what if they took that money and extended Votto and Volquez while also putting money aside to buy out Cueto and Bruce's arbitration years?

Some times when you look cheap you are actually thinking with foresight rather than hindsight.I'm not as worried about them pocketing it as I am on blowing it to sign more 30 yr old utility players for everyday positions. The Reds have been churning dollars and prospects for a decade now, so I'm not real confident that an Arroyo for prospects trade wouldn't be more of the same, even under different management.

Chip R
06-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Considering our needs, I'm a bit surprised nobody's mentioned Jack Wilson yet.

That salary isn't THAT out of whack is it?


Alex Gonzalez part deux except he can hit a little. Wrong side of 30, making $6.6M this year plus he's injury prone.

traderumor
06-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Considering our needs, I'm a bit surprised nobody's mentioned Jack Wilson yet.

That salary isn't THAT out of whack is it?Part of the problem with acquiring Jack Wilson would be that he couldn't hit Reds pitching. That makes up most of his OPS ;)

bucksfan2
06-24-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm not as worried about them pocketing it as I am on blowing it to sign more 30 yr old utility players for everyday positions. The Reds have been churning dollars and prospects for a decade now, so I'm not real confident that an Arroyo for prospects trade wouldn't be more of the same, even under different management.

The Reds have a history of doing that or Jocketty has a history of doing that?

traderumor
06-24-2009, 03:49 PM
The Reds have a history of doing that or Jocketty has a history of doing that?The Reds, but so far, Jocketty hasn't done a whole lot to distinguish himself as anything but more of what I have been accustomed to with the Reds.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:50 PM
Considering our needs, I'm a bit surprised nobody's mentioned Jack Wilson yet.IMO, Janish is likely to be as good of a solution as Jack Wilson.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 03:53 PM
The Reds, but so far, Jocketty hasn't done a whole lot to distinguish himself as anything but more of what I have been accustomed to with the Reds.which is really the troubling part over the last 12 months. He has done nothing to this point to create confidence.

Kc61
06-24-2009, 04:08 PM
which is really the troubling part over the last 12 months. He has done nothing to this point to create confidence.


He has:

Transformed the team to a pitching/defense style.

Kept all his prospects for play or trade.

Promoted about 10 useful or better guys to the majors.

Acquired some stop gaps, some mistakes but others not (Arthur Rhodes, Hernandez, Nix, Gomes).

Obtained reasonable value for Griffey and Dunn despite the fact that each was a pending free agent last year, including Nick Massett, Micah Owings, some role players, at least one prospect.

Handled the roster well enough to be about .500 in 2009 despite major absences due to injury and whatever.

He has my confidence.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 04:15 PM
were they?

Claussen had just come off a major arm injury(TJ surgery).

Mateo was basically a failed prospect at that point and coming off of a severe broken leg who had really struggled in 3 shots at the majors.

Bell had never pitched above A ball. The fact that the Braves were willing to deal him made me skeptical as Schuerholz has mostly been outstanding at creating hype and then dealing a prospect when his value was the highest.

Claussen was rated very highly and had shown success after returning from TJ. In fact, he actually put up better numbers after his surgery than he did before prior to the trade (including a ~2.00 ERA between AAA and the majors at age 24.)

Mateo had just turned 23 and already had parts of two seasons OPSing over .780 with the big club under his belt. If that's a "failed propsect" what the hell is Homer Bailey?

Rob Bell was also rated very highly. If Amaro decides to deal Carrasco or Taylor, are you going to be skeptical of their prospect status because the GM agreed to trade them? That logic is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Even Billy Beane traded Aaron Harang when he was basically a prospect.

And Carrasco? He of the 5.20 ERA? What exactly is he? What exactly is a "real" prospect, and who gets to decide who qualifies as one?

All I am saying is that I would have to be pretty overwhelmed to trade Aaron Harang at this point, and your proposed package of Michael Taylor and Carlos Carrasco isn't doing it for me.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 04:21 PM
He has:

signed Willy Taveras
re-signed Jerry Hairston to a 2 year deal
re-signed Mike Lincoln to a 2 year deal
left Alex Gonzalez as the SS
paid $8M for Ramon Hernandez (sorry but he hasn't been that good just in comparison to Ross, Bako and Javy, my comment before the season was that Janish and Hanigan were likely to be as good as Hernandez and Gonzalez)

Has not made a major move that has made a profound impact. Walt has dabbled on the fringes. His only acqusition to have a major positive impact is Rhodes, some have been awful.

To get where they want to go Jocketty now has to make some moves that are bold, entail risk and must profoundly improve the team. I have no idea if he is up to the task or not.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 04:29 PM
Mateo had just turned 23 and already had parts of two seasons OPSing over .780 with the big club under his belt. .actually that is not true.

1999 OPS 719 in 122 ABs
2000 OPS 786 in 206 ABs (pre injury)
2001 OPS 663 in 129 ABs (post injury)

no comment on the broken leg, which was a serious injury. He looked nothing like the same player post injury.

quote from Sickels on Mateo

Handed the right field job in 2000, Mateo got off to a fast start, hitting .291/.339/.447 in 52 games. In early June, he broke his right leg in a horrific baserunning incident, ending his season. And in retrospect, it seemed to end his career.

Claussen had declining K numbers after his TJ surgery which certainly didn't re- establish his bona fides.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 04:30 PM
Rob Bell was also rated very highly. If Amaro decides to deal Carrasco or Taylor, are you going to be skeptical of their prospect status because the GM agreed to trade them?
not Amaro but I would be concerned if it was Schuerholz.


Rob Bell was also rated very highly.he was but he had not played above A ball. The jump from A to AA is regarded as the usually the toughest in the minors

Kc61
06-24-2009, 04:33 PM
signed Willy Taveras
re-signed Jerry Hairston to a 2 year deal
re-signed Mike Lincoln to a 2 year deal
left Alex Gonzalez as the SS
paid $8M for Ramon Hernandez (sorry but he hasn't been that good just in comparison to Ross, Bako and Javy, my comment before the season was that Janish and Hanigan were likely to be as good as Hernandez and Gonzalez)

Has not made a major move that has made a profound impact. Walt has dabbled on the fringes. His only acqusition to have a major positive impact is Rhodes, some have been awful.

To get where they want to go Jocketty now has to make some moves that are bold, entail risk and must profoundly improve the team. I have no idea if he is up to the task or not.



I've often said on RedsZone that relatively minor mistakes don't bother me at all. I don't view Hairston as a mistake. I understand the thinking on Taveras, which hasn't worked out so far. I disagreed with the Lincoln deal.

IMO none of this really impacts the team for the long term. Every team signs role players, some work, some don't.

The main points are that Walt has a good core shaping up with Votto, Phillips, Bruce, maybe EE. He has good pitching and some depth in pitching prospects. And he has plenty of trade assets from the depth of prospects.

Having said all that -- the Reds haven't made a major, truly major, player pickup in a number of years. I agree with you that we are approaching the day when such a move needs to be made. I like the talent in the minors but there need to be one or two bold moves to put the team on the map. So we agree to that extent.

TRF
06-24-2009, 04:37 PM
would be great for a 3b but not exactly what I want from a LF. The 5 HRs and sub 500 SLG% with a .326 BA is not the best case for a LF.

I really am a bit mystified by his moving off of 3b. Do the Reds believe he cannot handle the position defensively? Or do they beleive LF is his quickest route to the majors? (and that is the reason for the move)

3Bs that can hit are a lot harder to find than LFs.

Some of the doubles will turn into HR's. He's probably a 20-25 HR guy initially, with a few years in the 30's.

flyer85
06-24-2009, 04:40 PM
I've often said on RedsZone that relatively minor mistakes don't bother me at all. I don't view Hairston as a mistake. I understand the thinking on Taveras, which hasn't worked out so far. I disagreed with the Lincoln deal.

IMO none of this really impacts the team for the long term. None of what he has done to this point has had a major long term impact. All of his acquisitions have been short term without any major impact on resources. The moves he has to make going forward are not going to be like that. I have no idea if Walt is up to the challenge or not. In his Reds tenure the only evidence I have to judge him on is his fiddling around the edges and that has been hit and miss(more missing IMO) but he can make up for all that and then some by making good decisions that set this team up for success in 2010 and beyond. I am not concerned about 2009.

HokieRed
06-24-2009, 04:53 PM
He has:

Transformed the team to a pitching/defense style.

Kept all his prospects for play or trade.

Promoted about 10 useful or better guys to the majors.

Acquired some stop gaps, some mistakes but others not (Arthur Rhodes, Hernandez, Nix, Gomes).

Obtained reasonable value for Griffey and Dunn despite the fact that each was a pending free agent last year, including Nick Massett, Micah Owings, some role players, at least one prospect.

Handled the roster well enough to be about .500 in 2009 despite major absences due to injury and whatever.

He has my confidence.

Agree 100%. And his main task now will not to give in to the false idea that this team is a contender in 2009, which, IMHO, it is not. It has a very good chance to be a real contender in 2010 if no destructive moves are made now.

Ltlabner
06-24-2009, 05:02 PM
First, let's dispel this notion that we are "contenders" in 2009. We have to play the games, of course, but we're not contenders and shouldn't act like one. Unless we're really going to go hog-wild, we shouldn't be buyers right now.

That said, with the core of the team we have some canny moves, bold trades and frankly luck could make us big time contenders in 2010+.

My gut instinct is to shy away from tearing the team apart because it usually begets another rebuilding period and we just push out the window of suck another couple of years. That said, with Walt at the helm, I'm *a little* more open to the concept of trading Arroyo now for a couple of guys that will help us next year. The same goes for a Cordero, Harang or even a Phillips for that matter. But the guys need to help us next year for such a plan to make sense. Otherwise you might as well burn it to the ground and start over.

And if the plan is to tear the team down, do a fire-sale and start the merry-go-round over again, count me out. As I've posted before, if you can't do it with this core, you might as well move the team to Walla Walla and get out of the baseball business.

Benihana
06-24-2009, 06:36 PM
not Amaro but I would be concerned if it was Schuerholz.

he was but he had not played above A ball. The jump from A to AA is regarded as the usually the toughest in the minors

Interesting that in five posts now you still haven't addressed Carrasco and his 5.20 ERA in AAA of being (in part) worthy of Aaron Harang.

redsfan4445
06-24-2009, 09:00 PM
per Rosenthall and mlb trade rumours

"Reports that the A's would accept less for Matt Holliday because they'd prefer to skip out on the arbitration process this offseason are probably untrue, as a source said the potential high cost for the slugger is a "nonissue.""

WALT!! call and find out what it would take!!

Will M
06-25-2009, 01:15 AM
per Rosenthall and mlb trade rumours

"Reports that the A's would accept less for Matt Holliday because they'd prefer to skip out on the arbitration process this offseason are probably untrue, as a source said the potential high cost for the slugger is a "nonissue.""

WALT!! call and find out what it would take!!

Nix has an OPS vs RHP of 870.
Gomes has an OPS vs LHP of 1044.

Holliday has an OPS of 790.
Away from Coors in 2008 his OPS was 892 & in 2007 it was 860.

i don't believe Holliday is a major upgrade over what we have in LF. imo any trade of resources needs to get us a shortstop.

11larkin11
06-25-2009, 02:18 AM
Nix has an OPS vs RHP of 870.
Gomes has an OPS vs LHP of 1044.

Holliday has an OPS of 790.
Away from Coors in 2008 his OPS was 892 & in 2007 it was 860.

i don't believe Holliday is a major upgrade over what we have in LF. imo any trade of resources needs to get us a shortstop.

Oakland Coliseum vs. GABP...

Hmm...

WVRedsFan
06-25-2009, 02:20 AM
First, let's dispel this notion that we are "contenders" in 2009. We have to play the games, of course, but we're not contenders and shouldn't act like one. Unless we're really going to go hog-wild, we shouldn't be buyers right now.

That said, with the core of the team we have some canny moves, bold trades and frankly luck could make us big time contenders in 2010+.

My gut instinct is to shy away from tearing the team apart because it usually begets another rebuilding period and we just push out the window of suck another couple of years. That said, with Walt at the helm, I'm *a little* more open to the concept of trading Arroyo now for a couple of guys that will help us next year. The same goes for a Cordero, Harang or even a Phillips for that matter. But the guys need to help us next year for such a plan to make sense. Otherwise you might as well burn it to the ground and start over.

And if the plan is to tear the team down, do a fire-sale and start the merry-go-round over again, count me out. As I've posted before, if you can't do it with this core, you might as well move the team to Walla Walla and get out of the baseball business.

Great post. Yes, 2009 is not a "contending year," but it looks like it may be a disaster in the end. I'm all for moving Arroyo and maybe even a couple others, but the main part of the problem is players that do not belong here, if the club is building for the future. Walt has made some improvements, but his confidence in a career-year Hairston and Willy Traveras were both gambles lost.

Pitching is fickle. The Volquez of 2008 got hurt and we see what it has done to this team. The Harang who is our supposed ace pitches well. but gets no run support because we were counting on marginal players to provide offense. The Reds need to buy into free agents who are proven players. If they cannot afford that, they need to be content with being the Pittsburgh Pirates West and just put on a show that will always end up below .500.

As I look at the standings tonight, two teams are nipping at our tails in the standings. One is the horrible Houston Astros and the other is the horrible Pittsburgh Pirates. I know we're not contenders, but surely, we could have done something to not let this happen.

TheNext44
06-25-2009, 02:48 AM
4 1/2 games out, two games under .500, more than two weeks away from the All-Star break. How can anyone argue that the Reds are not contending????!!!!

Right now, this team may not be good enough to contend, but they will get EE back shortly, already have Votto back, and look to be moving Taveras to the bench, or at least a platoon role. That gives the Reds this lineup going forward after the All-Star break.

Dickerson
Hairston
Votto
Gomes/Nix
Phillips
Bruce
EE
Hernandez

The order will change depending on the opposing pitcher, but if those 9 can most of the rest of the AB's the rest of the season, the Reds will stay in this, with the pitching they've been getting all season.

If the Reds can swing a deal for a SS, they really have a great chance of not just contending, but actually being a serious force, especially when they get Volquez back.

Basically the Reds lost their "Pujols" (Votto was actually a bigger part of the Reds offense than Pujols was for the Cards this year, before he went on the DL), lost their Ace from last year, and lost their starting 3B and best RH power hitter, and with all that, they are just 4.5 games out.

Getting all those guys back will mean that they should be contending the rest of the season, and are just one trade away from being a favorite.

WVRedsFan
06-25-2009, 03:24 AM
4 1/2 games out, two games under .500, more than two weeks away from the All-Star break. How can anyone argue that the Reds are not contending????!!!!

Right now, this team may not be good enough to contend, but they will get EE back shortly, already have Votto back, and look to be moving Taveras to the bench, or at least a platoon role. That gives the Reds this lineup going forward after the All-Star break.

Dickerson
Hairston
Votto
Gomes/Nix
Phillips
Bruce
EE
Hernandez

The order will change depending on the opposing pitcher, but if those 9 can most of the rest of the AB's the rest of the season, the Reds will stay in this, with the pitching they've been getting all season.

If the Reds can swing a deal for a SS, they really have a great chance of not just contending, but actually being a serious force, especially when they get Volquez back.

Basically the Reds lost their "Pujols" (Votto was actually a bigger part of the Reds offense than Pujols was for the Cards this year, before he went on the DL), lost their Ace from last year, and lost their starting 3B and best RH power hitter, and with all that, they are just 4.5 games out.

Getting all those guys back will mean that they should be contending the rest of the season, and are just one trade away from being a favorite.



Dreamer. There are deeper problems with this club. I appreciate your optimism, but the truth is that we are floundring because of certain defects in our roster. Votto and EE are not the answer, though they will help.

Ron Madden
06-25-2009, 03:46 AM
Considering our needs, I'm a bit surprised nobody's mentioned Jack Wilson yet.

That salary isn't THAT out of whack is it?

We need a young SS that can be productive for a few years not an old SS that was productive for a few years.

Ron Madden
06-25-2009, 04:07 AM
I'm not as worried about them pocketing it as I am on blowing it to sign more 30 yr old utility players for everyday positions. The Reds have been churning dollars and prospects for a decade now, so I'm not real confident that an Arroyo for prospects trade wouldn't be more of the same, even under different management.

BINGO!

There is nothing at all wrong with paying productive players a lot of money

Reds have a habit of paying a bunch of unproductive players a lot of money.

Big Klu
06-25-2009, 04:13 AM
Nix has an OPS vs RHP of 870.
Gomes has an OPS vs LHP of 1044.

Holliday has an OPS of 790.
Away from Coors in 2008 his OPS was 892 & in 2007 it was 860.

i don't believe Holliday is a major upgrade over what we have in LF. imo any trade of resources needs to get us a shortstop.

Laynce Nix and Jonny Gomes are the Reds' version of John Lowenstein and Gary Roenicke from the good Orioles teams of the late 70's and early 80's.

Please, please, PLEASE say no to Matt Holliday!

Ron Madden
06-25-2009, 04:31 AM
He has:

Transformed the team to a pitching/defense style.

Kept all his prospects for play or trade.

Promoted about 10 useful or better guys to the majors.

Acquired some stop gaps, some mistakes but others not (Arthur Rhodes, Hernandez, Nix, Gomes).

Obtained reasonable value for Griffey and Dunn despite the fact that each was a pending free agent last year, including Nick Massett, Micah Owings, some role players, at least one prospect.

Handled the roster well enough to be about .500 in 2009 despite major absences due to injury and whatever.

He has my confidence.

Transformed the team to a pitching defensive style.

The best pitchers and best defensive players were here when Walt got here.

Acquired some stop gaps.

No argument here, but when is he going to acquire any help for the long run?

Made some mistakes.

Yep. Taveras, Lincoln, Hairston and Weathers. They are all very easy to replace for a lot less money.


Sometimes you have to trade young prospects in order to improve the Major League Club.

Walt has been sitting on his hands if you ask me.

redsfandan
06-25-2009, 10:35 AM
I'm pretty sure you can take Brad Hawpe off your list. I can't imagine the Rockies would consider dealing him now.
I'm thinking they might. The Rockies have been impressive lately but I still think LA has to be the favorite in that division. Colorado has a bunch of young players ready to take over for Hawpe (and Atkins) that can make them expendable. A trade for pitching would make sense to me.

I doubt it. Walt's a pretty bird-in-the-hand guy. And Harang's contract is not the cash incinerator that Arroyo's is.IF the 2011 options are picked up Harang would make $36.25m over '09-'11 and Arroyo would make $31.5m over '09-'11. If the options aren't picked up they'll make $25.5m and $22.5m respectively. I really don't see a significant difference.

Dreamer. There are deeper problems with this club. I appreciate your optimism, but the truth is that we are floundring because of certain defects in our roster. Votto and EE are not the answer, though they will help.
Pessimist. Fwiw, I have always been of the opinion that a realistic goal this year was a winning record with a shot at the playoffs in 2010. But we've had more than our share of bad luck regarding injuries in the 1st half. Imo, THAT is the #1 reason why we are floundering. If our luck changes in the 2nd half it IS possible that we could contend.

Those "defects in our roster" can continue to hurt our chances IF we continue to get production from two positions like the last month. It's also possible that the production from those two spots could improve and that a trade could help. Votto and EE won't save the ship by themselves but if they're back and productive it will also help the rest of the lineup. Obviously, this offense would never be confused with a murderers row lineup but, Imo, it's not THIS bad either and should eventually start to produce more.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 10:50 AM
IF the 2011 options are picked up Harang would make $36.25m over '09-'11 and Arroyo would make $31.5m over '09-'11. If the options aren't picked up they'll make $25.5m and $22.5m respectively. I really don't see a significant difference.

I think the point is that Harang's production matches his salary whereas with Arroyo that is debatable.

If you have to move one, you move Arroyo. I know that Harang could fetch more, but at this point, I don't think it's worth the loss of Harang's production and leadership. At this point, I keep Harang around until his deal is up- unless I'm completely bowled over.

redsfandan
06-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Gotcha, my mistake. And that would be my preference as well.

dougdirt
06-25-2009, 12:17 PM
I think the point is that Harang's production matches his salary whereas with Arroyo that is debatable.


Not really sure its debatable with Arroyo. His last 2 season's have him at 292.7 innings with a 5.01 ERA. Thats not close to worth the money he is making/going to make.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 12:30 PM
Not really sure its debatable with Arroyo. His last 2 season's have him at 292.7 innings with a 5.01 ERA. Thats not close to worth the money he is making/going to make.

You don't have to convince me- I'm in favor of trading him now provided the return is decent. I'm not, however, in favor of trading Harang unless the return is HUGE.

dougdirt
06-25-2009, 12:34 PM
You don't have to convince me- I'm in favor of trading him now provided the return is decent. I'm not, however, in favor of trading Harang unless the return is HUGE.

I am with you on that, but you said Arroyo was arguable that he was/wasn't worth his money. I was just disagree with that.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 12:39 PM
I am with you on that, but you said Arroyo was arguable that he was/wasn't worth his money. I was just disagree with that.

Finally we agree on something. ;)

I was just noting that it's being debated ad nauseum on about 345890958 different threads right now.

cincrazy
06-25-2009, 01:07 PM
Walt's quote doesn't mean much to me. They're still trying to fill the ballpark, they're not going to come out and say "We're sellers, the season is over with" when they're only four games back.

jojo
06-25-2009, 01:11 PM
Trade Homer to the Rockies for Seth Smith and be done with it.

We wouldn't have to complain about Homer anymore and we'd get to start complaining about the new guy and how the Reds would've won it all if only...

Reds Fanatic
06-25-2009, 03:12 PM
I think Walt will do what most teams do play up til the trade deadline and then see where they stand. The team may look like buyers now but with the way the team is going I expect in a month they won't look like buyers at all.

GAC
06-25-2009, 05:56 PM
I hope they are also a "Seller" of a one Corrie Patterson TAVERAS!!!

Would you buy an AMC Rambler when something far, far better is available?

GAC
06-25-2009, 05:57 PM
They were buyers when they got Taveras. ;)

redsfandan
06-25-2009, 07:08 PM
I think Walt will do what most teams do play up til the trade deadline and then see where they stand. The team may look like buyers now but with the way the team is going I expect in a month they won't look like buyers at all.
Exactly. If they're going to contend this season then the next 30 days will be extremely important. They need to start a winning streak and soon.

RedLegSuperStar
06-25-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't know if this has been posted or not but I found this tidbit of information a possible match for our Redlegs:

MLBTradeRumors.com -


According to Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald, Matt Lindstrom's injury has prompted the Marlins to start shopping for relievers. Lindstrom will miss at least six weeks and the Marlins, who are a mere 2.0 games behind the division-leading Phillies, don't want to go that long without another arm.

Spencer mentions LaTroy Hawkins and George Sherrill as possible solutions, but says the Marlins wouldn't likely want to give up the players required to land Sherrill. I'll add Luis Ayala and Jon Switzer to the list, as both were just designated for assignment and could be acquired more easily.

Josh Roenicke, Chris Heisey, & Danny Richar for Jeremy Hermida

OnBaseMachine
06-25-2009, 08:59 PM
This team is done, IMO. The Reds need to be sellers unless they reel off about four or five straight wins sometime soon. In the last week, our best pitcher has blown a 5-0 lead and a 5-1 lead. When the pitching is good, the offense is subpar. When the offense actually has a good game, the pitching stinks. One of our top 2/3 starters is out until after the ASB. It's going to be hard to stay in the race. Start building for 2010 when the Reds actually have a legit chance to be playoff contenders. I think with some solid moves, the 2010 Reds could be very good.

Edit - Just to clarify, I would wait another 10 days or so before making a decision. If the Reds play well over that stretch (7-3 or so) then I'd consider buying. If they continue to struggle then I'd start shopping Arroyo and Weathers, among others. I'd hang on to Harang unless someone knocks me over with an offer.

Will M
06-25-2009, 10:50 PM
I don't know if this has been posted or not but I found this tidbit of information a possible match for our Redlegs:

MLBTradeRumors.com -



Josh Roenicke, Chris Heisey, & Danny Richar for Jeremy Hermida

can he play SS?

seriously, i believe the 2009 OF is ok IF (big IF) the right players play.
RF: Bruce
CF: Dickerson/Hairston platoon
LF: Nix/Gomes platoon

for 2010:
RF - Bruce
CF - Dickerson, Stubbs and/or Heissey
LF - Frazier, Votto(with Alonso at 1B), Dickerson, Heissey or 1 year stopgap until Frazier or Alonso is ready.

i really don't want to see Walt trading prospects for an outfielder

traderumor
06-25-2009, 11:34 PM
This team is done, IMO. The Reds need to be sellers unless they reel off about four or five straight wins sometime soon. In the last week, our best pitcher has blown a 5-0 lead and a 5-1 lead. When the pitching is good, the offense is subpar. When the offense actually has a good game, the pitching stinks. One of our top 2/3 starters is out until after the ASB. It's going to be hard to stay in the race. Start building for 2010 when the Reds actually have a legit chance to be playoff contenders. I think with some solid moves, the 2010 Reds could be very good.

Edit - Just to clarify, I would wait another 10 days or so before making a decision. If the Reds play well over that stretch (7-3 or so) then I'd consider buying. If they continue to struggle then I'd start shopping Arroyo and Weathers, among others. I'd hang on to Harang unless someone knocks me over with an offer.So, if they go 5-5, you pull the plug?

WebScorpion
06-26-2009, 02:37 AM
Now is the time to steal Sean Rodriguez from the Angels. The guy can't get enough playing time to keep his timing, so he looks bad at the plate this year. It might be too late to ask for Brandon Wood because he's finally hitting Major League pitching, but I'd be happy with him too. Come on Walt, do something spectacular! :thumbup:

bucksfan2
06-26-2009, 10:32 AM
Now is the time to steal Sean Rodriguez from the Angels. The guy can't get enough playing time to keep his timing, so he looks bad at the plate this year. It might be too late to ask for Brandon Wood because he's finally hitting Major League pitching, but I'd be happy with him too. Come on Walt, do something spectacular! :thumbup:

The next month in a half could be very very important to the Reds and Jocketty. The Reds just got their best player back, they look to get whatever you want to consider Edwin back, and they have Homer starting on Sat. The Reds are currently a game under .500 but only 3.5 games back. Its almost like Jocketty made a trade because they get too offensive forces back into the lineup. If Homer is given a chance and shows he is ready that may make either Harang or Arroyo expendable. This quote from Jason Stark also get me excited.
A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal.

If Jocketty makes the right moves (I have no idea what those would look like) he could not only set the Reds up for a run at the NL Central this year, but could turn the Reds into a St Louis type perennial contender.

flyer85
06-26-2009, 11:25 AM
Now is the time to steal Sean Rodriguez from the Angels. from what I have read in the past he is not regarded as everyday SS material in the majors and the Reds have a 2B. I thought that the Reds should have tried to move BP to SS because he certainly has the skills to play SS. Since it hasn't happened it seems safe to assume that isn't going to.

Honestly there aren't a lot of SS prospects that profile as plus defenders and plus hitters. Seems like a lot of the young players/prospects (Wood, Rodriguez, Escobar, Beckham, Andrus, Aybar, Valaika, Cozart, etc) profile as one or the other but not both.

Mario-Rijo
06-26-2009, 01:20 PM
A little late to the party but Starks take back on the 24th which I agree with then and even now despite this current lull.


Addressing the Reds rumors (with update)
Bronson Arroyo | Reds
Cincinnati general manager Walt Jocketty dismissed a rumor in Sunday's Boston Globe that the Reds are dangling Bronson Arroyo to reduce payroll.

"I haven't talked to anyone about Bronson," Jocketty told the Cincinnati Enquirer.

Jocketty added that he's under no mandate to trim payroll and would classify his team as a buyer and not a seller as the trade deadline approaches. One name that might jibe with the rumor if it doesn't involve Arroyo would be Aaron Harang.

JAYSON STARK'S TAKE: "I don't get any sense that the Reds are in a selling mode. And I don't get any sense from GMs who have talked to them that they think that, either. The Reds have a real chance to win that division, I think. They also have more prospects to deal than the Cubs, Cardinals or Brewers if they decide to buy. So it seems to me people are misinterpreting what they're hearing on that club. They know pitching depth is their greatest attribute, so that might be what they deal. But I wouldn't interpret that as 'selling.' It would only be an attempt to use that depth to add more offense. I think they're trying to win."