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Benihana
06-25-2009, 07:12 PM
In addition to the stuff on the Phillies I posted in the "Prospects for Arroyo" thread, here's an interesting tidbit:


• Central casting: A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal.

Beyond Josh Vitters, the Cubs "don't have one young player I've seen where I say, 'We've got to have that guy,'" the scout said. Aside from the spectacular Alcides Escobar, the Brewers have "nothing to get excited about," he said. Ditto with the Cardinals once you get past third baseman Brett Wallace. And "Houston's system is not real good," he said, flatly.

But the Reds have a bunch of legit prospects, from pitchers Homer Bailey and Matt Maloney to impact bats like Drew Stubbs, Todd Frazier and Juan Francisco. So this is a team with the ammunition to make a move, and more than enough pitching to hang in this race, assuming Edinson Volquez comes back.

Now I don't want the Reds to neccessarily be buyers, especially if Volquez isn't coming back, but I thought it was interesting to note that guys like Maloney and Francisco have real value to other teams (and are getting attention in the national media.) It's guys like those two (and Chris Heisey) that I'd love to see Walt package with Arroyo to get us a real upgrade at a need position, be it Elvis Andrus, Michael Taylor or someone of similar ilk.

JayBruce
06-25-2009, 07:25 PM
You really think the Rangers would even consider dealing Andrus for Bronson Arroyo? LOL

This team is not a contender; not this year, and probably not next year. If the Phillies are willing to part with Michael Taylor, and 1 or 2 mid-level prospects, I would gladly give them Harang.

SoTxRedsFan
06-25-2009, 07:29 PM
Yeah, Andrus is not going anywhere. Especially for a package headlined by Arroyo.

lollipopcurve
06-25-2009, 09:35 PM
Michael Taylor may be overrated. He's playing in a hitter's park. No way would I package prospects like Heisey for him.

nemesis
06-25-2009, 09:44 PM
What if you could get Andrus, Harrison and Rameriez for Harang, Dorn, Cozart and Weathers?

It gves the Rangers a Solid #2 behind Millwood and also gives them a solid bullpen form the 6th on. With guys like Willson, Weathers and Francisco to close it out. I would bet the Rangers would be hard pressed to pass on a real chance to goto the postseason and get a guy like Harang. Especially wih a guy like Ryan running things. They have Visquel and Young who could shift back to short and really wouldn't hinder their offense. They get a nice bat in Dorn for a LF, 1B, DH platoon in the future and Cozart to replace Andrus somewhat.

We get our SS and Catcher of the future... Harrison is a guy who could benifit from a change of leagues and could be a nice change of pace guy until Wood and Stewart are ready.

Move Arroyo, Rhodes and EE to Philly for Feliz, Donald and Taylor...

Feliz is a stop gap til Frazier is ready and Taylor would be your starting LF for the next 6 years. Donald could be a good bench guy if anything. Bring up Viola to replace Rhodes.

The Offense is 1 to 1.5 runs better a game and Harrison can put up simailar numbers to Arroyo in the rotation. Bailey gets his chance.

I would think an outfield of Taylor, Stubbs and Bruce would be very solid on defense as well as offense. Votto, Phillips, Andrus and Feliz would be a very quality defensive and offensive IF. Feliz has only commited 23 Errors at third in the last 2 and a half years.

So you trade older aging parts and about $30,000,000 immediatly in payroll and another 15 to 17 million in the offseason (Gonzalez. Hernandez and Hariston) and the abiity to eat another (Taveras) for a really good young developing team on both sides of the diamond that you now have the money to go out and lock up longterm. The truth of the matter is these are vey doable deals if the front office has the fortitude to go out and do it.

JayBruce
06-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Michael Taylor may be overrated. He's playing in a hitter's park. No way would I package prospects like Heisey for him.

Yeah, his batting average and plate discipline are clearly inflated by the park he plays in. Besides, what would a 6'6 250 lb'er be doing hitting homeruns in the first place???

Taylor >>>>>> Heisey, and I don't think you would find a single GM who would disagree with me

HokieRed
06-25-2009, 10:59 PM
Why do we keep hearing Jason Donald mentioned? The guy had a .617 OPS last time I looked, as a 25 year old.

nemesis
06-25-2009, 11:06 PM
Why do we keep hearing Jason Donald mentioned? The guy had a .617 OPS last time I looked, as a 25 year old.

He is having a down year. He OPS'd .889 last year. It's a similar situation to Valakia who OPS'd .843 last year but is at .481 right now asa 24 yr old. Buy low and hope you can get the most out of him. If he was at that .890 mark probaly couldn't get him.

Benihana
06-25-2009, 11:43 PM
What if you could get Andrus, Harrison and Rameriez for Harang, Dorn, Cozart and Weathers?

It gves the Rangers a Solid #2 behind Millwood and also gives them a solid bullpen form the 6th on. With guys like Willson, Weathers and Francisco to close it out. I would bet the Rangers would be hard pressed to pass on a real chance to goto the postseason and get a guy like Harang. Especially wih a guy like Ryan running things. They have Visquel and Young who could shift back to short and really wouldn't hinder their offense. They get a nice bat in Dorn for a LF, 1B, DH platoon in the future and Cozart to replace Andrus somewhat.

We get our SS and Catcher of the future... Harrison is a guy who could benifit from a change of leagues and could be a nice change of pace guy until Wood and Stewart are ready.

Move Arroyo, Rhodes and EE to Philly for Feliz, Donald and Taylor...

Feliz is a stop gap til Frazier is ready and Taylor would be your starting LF for the next 6 years. Donald could be a good bench guy if anything. Bring up Viola to replace Rhodes.

The Offense is 1 to 1.5 runs better a game and Harrison can put up simailar numbers to Arroyo in the rotation. Bailey gets his chance.

I would think an outfield of Taylor, Stubbs and Bruce would be very solid on defense as well as offense. Votto, Phillips, Andrus and Feliz would be a very quality defensive and offensive IF. Feliz has only commited 23 Errors at third in the last 2 and a half years.

So you trade older aging parts and about $30,000,000 immediatly in payroll and another 15 to 17 million in the offseason (Gonzalez. Hernandez and Hariston) and the abiity to eat another (Taveras) for a really good young developing team on both sides of the diamond that you now have the money to go out and lock up longterm. The truth of the matter is these are vey doable deals if the front office has the fortitude to go out and do it.

And you have absolutely zero pitching going forward. I wouldn't count on any of the young guns (ie Stewart, Wood, Leake) sticking in the majors until 2011 at the earliest, and even then they probably won't be much more than #4-5 starters. You're going to play 2010 with Micah Owings as your #3 (and possibly even #2) starter? Best of luck!

Also, what is the point of acquiring Donald if you already have Andrus?

Brutus
06-25-2009, 11:59 PM
Found this in today's "Rumblings" column by Jayson Stark:

Central casting: A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal.

Beyond Josh Vitters, the Cubs "don't have one young player I've seen where I say, 'We've got to have that guy,'" the scout said. Aside from the spectacular Alcides Escobar, the Brewers have "nothing to get excited about," he said. Ditto with the Cardinals once you get past third baseman Brett Wallace. And "Houston's system is not real good," he said, flatly.

But the Reds have a bunch of legit prospects, from pitchers Homer Bailey and Matt Maloney to impact bats like Drew Stubbs, Todd Frazier and Juan Francisco. So this is a team with the ammunition to make a move, and more than enough pitching to hang in this race, assuming Edinson Volquez comes back.

Jayson Stark's "Rumblings" for June 25 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090625)

Just interesting to see if in fact some of the baseball scouting community is as bullish on the Reds' system as it is by Reds fans. Though they didn't set the bar real high, only comparing it to the NL Central, this certainly portrays the Reds' system as having a lot of gems.

Mario-Rijo
06-26-2009, 12:00 AM
And you have absolutely zero pitching going forward. I wouldn't count on any of the young guns sticking in the majors until 2011 at the earliest, and even then they probably won't be much more than #4-5 starters. You're going to play 2010 with Micah Owings as your #3 (and possibly even #2) starter? Best of luck!

Also, what is the point of acquiring Donald if you already have Andrus?

Not to mention Donald may be no better than Chris Valaika, in fact I'd give Valaika the nod.

TheNext44
06-26-2009, 12:11 AM
Found this in today's "Rumblings" column by Jayson Stark:

Central casting: A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal.

Beyond Josh Vitters, the Cubs "don't have one young player I've seen where I say, 'We've got to have that guy,'" the scout said. Aside from the spectacular Alcides Escobar, the Brewers have "nothing to get excited about," he said. Ditto with the Cardinals once you get past third baseman Brett Wallace. And "Houston's system is not real good," he said, flatly.

But the Reds have a bunch of legit prospects, from pitchers Homer Bailey and Matt Maloney to impact bats like Drew Stubbs, Todd Frazier and Juan Francisco. So this is a team with the ammunition to make a move, and more than enough pitching to hang in this race, assuming Edinson Volquez comes back.

Jayson Stark's "Rumblings" for June 25 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090625)

Just interesting to see if in fact some of the baseball scouting community is as bullish on the Reds' system as it is by Reds fans. Though they didn't set the bar real high, only comparing it to the NL Central, this certainly portrays the Reds' system as having a lot of gems.

Obviously, Stark does not read Redszone, otherwise he would know that this team is finished, done, stick a fork in them. They are not contenders this year and should plan for 2010. ;)

But seriously, he does make a good point. No team in the NL Central has the goods right now to be front runners. All four teams need to make a trade to be serious contenders and the Reds are in the best position for that.

And really, on that list of Reds prospects that Stark had, who is untouchable? It's not like having to trade a Cueto or Bruce.

Homer Bailey
06-26-2009, 12:13 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76743

HokieRed
06-26-2009, 12:13 AM
Just noticed Justin Lehr's stats appear on the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs stat sheet. I don't remember that he came over from there, did he? Is this just an accident or is something in process?

jojo
06-26-2009, 12:15 AM
You really think the Rangers would even consider dealing Andrus for Bronson Arroyo? LOL.

Yes, I wish that mantra would go out of vogue quickly.

jojo
06-26-2009, 12:17 AM
What if you could get Andrus, Harrison and Rameriez for Harang, Dorn, Cozart and Weathers?.

Aint gonna happen. As an aside, the Rangers actually have a system where the bar "we gotta have that guy" is truly legit.

Brutus
06-26-2009, 12:54 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76743

Different forum though, si?

It seemed applicable here, as it has to do with the Reds' chances of acquiring players this summer. Not attempting to be quickest trigger. Just figured it was relevant and not everyone goes to the minor league forum all the time. If I'm off my rocker again, then my apologies.

redsfandan
06-26-2009, 07:04 AM
Found this in today's "Rumblings" column by Jayson Stark:

• Central casting: A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal..
I love to hear this kind of stuff. A players worth to a team is defined by how much he can help the team win. If a trade of a couple prospects can help us win now without hurting our chances to win down the road .. well that's progress.



Just interesting to see if in fact some of the baseball scouting community is as bullish on the Reds' system as it is by Reds fans. Though they didn't set the bar real high, only comparing it to the NL Central, this certainly portrays the Reds' system as having a lot of gems.At the same time it's also a testament to how bad the other NL Central "contenders" farm systems are right now.
Different forum though, si?
It seemed applicable here, as it has to do with the Reds' chances of acquiring players this summer. Not attempting to be quickest trigger. Just figured it was relevant and not everyone goes to the minor league forum all the time. If I'm off my rocker again, then my apologies.I agree. This is about not only our farm system but also our ability to make a trade to help us now. Both forums are a fit Imo.

GAC
06-26-2009, 07:41 AM
Found this in today's "Rumblings" column by Jayson Stark:

Central casting: A scout who has covered the NL Central says that of the teams in contention in that division, the Reds have by far the most prospects to deal.

But the question is.... should an organization like the Reds, who have finally made improvements in a farm system that has been lacking overall, deal any of those prospects to take that "shot" this year?

I look at where this team is at right now and I'll take that compared to what we have seen over the last decade. But that doesn't mean we should be content. But we are a team with payroll constraints, unlike a larger market team.

I'm not necessarily opposed to trading away a prospect(s) if we're going for a player that this team plans on retaining and building around (like say when the Cards got Rolen). But not sacrificing for a rental or just to "take that shot".

But Jocketty's forte, at least in the past, has been the ability to find that deal around the trading deadline.

But then he also had a FO that wasn't afraid to put up the money too.

redsfandan
06-26-2009, 07:41 AM
nm. Posted in wrong Stark article thread. Glad this post was still editable in case of ya know drunk posting and all.

Ok, otoh, I guess I'll put this back lol:
Interesting proposals nemesis. It's obvious you put some thought into it which I appreciate at least. But if we dealt BOTH Arroyo and Harang there's no way we'd be competing this year and, even if we're lucky, next year would be iffy too. If we dealt only one we'd still have a shot Imo this year (IF Volquez is back in Aug) and moreso next year. But I don't know of a team that's dealt 2 of their starting rotation anchors and was still able to win the same season.

Picking only one of the two proposals is tough. I have serious doubts that the Rangers would deal Andrus. I'll defer to the others on Andrus: It seems like he has potential to be at least another Renteria. So does anyone think they'd part with him when he's not only very cheap but should keep improving since he's so young?

On the Philly deal: hurts us short-term and probably doesn't help us much long-term either. Just seems like too much to give up when the best player (Taylor) we receive may not be THAT much better then what we'll have in left in 2011.

lollipopcurve
06-26-2009, 08:38 AM
Yeah, his batting average and plate discipline are clearly inflated by the park he plays in. Besides, what would a 6'6 250 lb'er be doing hitting homeruns in the first place???

Taylor >>>>>> Heisey, and I don't think you would find a single GM who would disagree with me

OK, expert.

I'll get in touch with you and all your GM buddies for tickets to Taylor's Hall of Fame induction.

Did you know....

Taylor is not considered a natural bat (somewhat mechanical). He is a huge guy who does not defend particularly well (and he'll only get bigger). He is a diabetic.

Playing in homer-friendly ballparks inflates HR totals. Yes, amazing but true.

Not saying he's a suspect. But, and read closely... he may be overrated by some. And he IS overrated by you.

We'll see how his career comically dominates Heisey's down the road. Then we can share a laugh, eh?

flyer85
06-26-2009, 10:49 AM
the problem is that I don't think the impact players are available that the Reds need(they need more than one). Addition by subtraction might be better but I doubt that it will happen.

A healthy EE could go a long way. I would also turn SS over to Janish and see what he can do.