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Kc61
06-27-2009, 10:00 AM
I don't think you trade Bailey. Volquez isn't healthy, Arroyo has a 5.5 ERA, Harang has been inconsisent, Owings is fifth starter. I just don't see enough pitching to trade off Bailey who finally has had success at AAA.

The obvious trade candidates are Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Cozart, Frazier, Wood. Frankly, I'd hold onto Wood more than the rest, pitching depth is key for any team. I'd also hold onto Cozart unless a better shortstop prospect comes back.

I think the Reds have to dangle some combination of Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey and Frazier to be players for a major hitter. Plus, maybe, one of their veteran pitchers.

I'm sure people would rather trade Francisco or maybe Soto or maybe others who haven't yet achieved at the high levels. I just don't think you get a major hitter in return unless the prospect has shown something at AAA or AA, or in the case of Alonso is a top rated guy.

Would Harang and Alonso plus lesser prospects bring back Matt Holiday? Reds would need an extension for Holliday or they can't do it, no rentals.

Views?

lollipopcurve
06-27-2009, 10:02 AM
For me, I'd be more willing to deal Stubbs and Francisco than the other guys you mention. I'd prefer to keep Frazier, Heisey, Cozart, Alonso and the pitchers.

Kc61
06-27-2009, 10:12 AM
For me, I'd be more willing to deal Stubbs and Francisco than the other guys you mention. I'd prefer to keep Frazier, Heisey, Cozart, Alonso and the pitchers.

In the real world, Stubbs (now below .280 at AAA) and a young, raw Francisco doesn't get you back a major hitter. I'm talking about a realistic effort to get a guy who would hit in the middle of the Reds order for a few years and actually improve the team.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 10:24 AM
I don't think you trade Bailey. Volquez isn't healthy, Arroyo has a 5.5 ERA, Harang has been inconsisent, Owings is fifth starter. I just don't see enough pitching to trade off Bailey who finally has had success at AAA.

The obvious trade candidates are Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Cozart, Frazier, Wood. Frankly, I'd hold onto Wood more than the rest, pitching depth is key for any team. I'd also hold onto Cozart unless a better shortstop prospect comes back.

I think the Reds have to dangle some combination of Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey and Frazier to be players for a major hitter. Plus, maybe, one of their veteran pitchers.

I'm sure people would rather trade Francisco or maybe Soto or maybe others who haven't yet achieved at the high levels. I just don't think you get a major hitter in return unless the prospect has shown something at AAA or AA, or in the case of Alonso is a top rated guy.

Would Harang and Alonso plus lesser prospects bring back Matt Holiday? Reds would need an extension for Holliday or they can't do it, no rentals.

Views?

I don't think the Reds or the A's would have any interest in a Harang-for-Holliday deal. If the A's deal Holliday, they want young, cheap prospects in return. Which brings us back to the topic of the thread:

I'd trade Heisey first. He's the perfect sell-high candidate, and he's stuck behind Dickerson and Stubbs on the organizational depth chart. His value has never been higher, and will likely only go down from here.

Under normal circumstances, I'd trade Alonso next given his high trade value. Although with the injury and the new promotion to Carolina, he is undervalued right now IMO. I'd wait until he regains his health and starts mashing at AA before considering him for a trade. I believe Alonso will be a quality bat at the major league level. That said, he really doesn't have a spot in Cincy if Votto stays entrenched at 1B. If you can move him for an impact LF or SS, you pull the trigger.

Juan Francisco would be next on my list, and although you said he wouldn't bring much in return, yesterday's Jayson Stark article seems to indicate otherwise. Apparently other teams' scouts have an affinity for guys like Francisco and Matt Maloney, who I would also trade in a second. I think a pitching-starved young team like Washington would have real interest in Maloney. I'd like to take Willingham and/or Milledge off of their hands.

I would trade Stubbs next, assuming you hang onto Heisey, however I don't see the Reds trading Stubbs after all they have invested in him. Like Heisey, he is producing at an all-time high right now. However, I believe he'll get a shot in Cincinnati before he goes anywhere via trade.

I would consider moving Wood after all of these guys, as his value may never be higher as well. However I would like to hang onto him due to the dearth of lefties in the system. I think Wood, Stewart, and Leake (once/if he signs) will form a nice trio of young guns, quite similar to what Volquez/Cueto/Bailey were heading into last season.

I would also like to keep Frazier, who despite terrible organizational mismanagement still provides the most versatile option for the franchise, being a realistic option for 2010 at both 3B and LF. His professional approach at the plate coupled with his good character make him a great candidate to be a very popular Red for many years to come. I could see him forming a captain-like trio with Votto and Bruce.

I would not trade Cozart given the complete lack of any SS options in the organization, at least until Valaika gets back over the Mendoza line. Unless the Reds acquire another solution at SS, you cannot move Cozart at this time. I also do not think there is another organization to which he would represent nearly as much value as he does to the Reds.

So, given their current values, I would trade these prospects in the following order:

1. Heisey
2. Alonso (only after he starts mashing in AA)
3. Francisco
4. Maloney
5. Stubbs
6. Wood
7. Frazier
8. Cozart

lollipopcurve
06-27-2009, 10:25 AM
In the real world, Stubbs (now below .280 at AAA) and a young, raw Francisco doesn't get you back a major hitter. I'm talking about a realistic effort to get a guy who would hit in the middle of the Reds order for a few years and actually improve the team.

I'd say in the real world teams don't trade the middle of the order hitter who's under team control for several years. The available MOO hitters will be expensive vets, probably short timers. I think Stubbs/Francisco, plus maybe an arm, has a shot for a player like that.

Why trade a Frazier or an Alonso when they very well may be the MOO hitters you're looking to acquire, within a year or two? Francisco's a longer shot to be that kind of hitter, but he too has a chance to become one (thus his attractiveness to a team trying to deal a good vet bat, in combination with the strong defensive CF in Stubbs).

Benihana
06-27-2009, 10:37 AM
Why trade a Frazier or an Alonso when they very well may be the MOO hitters you're looking to acquire, within a year or two?

I would trade Yonder Alonso the 1B for Yonder Alonso the LF, if that makes any sense. In other words, I would trade him for a guy like Matt LaPorta, Jason Heyward, or Mike Stanton.

I would love to trade him for Gordon Beckham. :rolleyes:

JaxRed
06-27-2009, 11:01 AM
Don't trade prospects. Trade expensive vets.

mace
06-27-2009, 11:02 AM
To me, the guys who pack extra value are the ones whose numbers are complemented by either great makeup (Frazier, Heisey, and/or Stubbs/Alonso/Cozart/Valaika) or scarcity (Wood, as a lefty, possibly Fairel and Horst for the same reason, and maybe Maloney, although, if his lefthandedness would place a premium on his exchange rate, I'd have to strongly consider it). Not sure who that leaves. Bailey, maybe. Possibly Alonso/Francisco/Soto/Stewart/Roenicke/Fisher/Thompson. But that'd be my guideline. Of course, any remote assessment of makeup can be way off.

dougdirt
06-27-2009, 11:03 AM
I would trade Yonder Alonso the 1B for Yonder Alonso the LF, if that makes any sense. In other words, I would trade him for a guy like Matt LaPorta, Jason Heyward, or Mike Stanton.

I would love to trade him for Gordon Beckham. :rolleyes:

Heyward, Stanton and Beckham aren't going anywhere (and I wouldn't trade him for the latter two btw). Its not likely that LaPorta is either. My issue is, you say you would trade Alonso for the LF equivalent.... but isn't that kind of whats going to happen when he gets to the majors and we then get Votto in LF?

Benihana
06-27-2009, 11:12 AM
Heyward, Stanton and Beckham aren't going anywhere (and I wouldn't trade him for the latter two btw). Its not likely that LaPorta is either. My issue is, you say you would trade Alonso for the LF equivalent.... but isn't that kind of whats going to happen when he gets to the majors and we then get Votto in LF?

Who knows?

Many on this board have assumed (and I too have been guilty of this on occasion) that Votto will simply move to LF once Alonso is ready. But has there been any indication whatsoever from any credible source that this might actually happen? What if the Reds have no intention of moving Votto (like moving Phillips to SS)? What if Votto doesn't want to move (like Dunn a few years back)? My point is there is no legitimate reason to assume Joey Votto is moving to LF, other than messageboard hypotheticals.

That is why I'd rather trade Alonso for a real LF (or SS, etc.)

dougdirt
06-27-2009, 11:48 AM
Who knows?

Many on this board have assumed (and I too have been guilty of this on occasion) that Votto will simply move to LF once Alonso is ready. But has there been any indication whatsoever from any credible source that this might actually happen? What if the Reds have no intention of moving Votto (like moving Phillips to SS)? What if Votto doesn't want to move (like Dunn a few years back)? My point is there is no legitimate reason to assume Joey Votto is moving to LF, other than messageboard hypotheticals.

That is why I'd rather trade Alonso for a real LF (or SS, etc.)

I don't think the team took Alonso in the top 10 of the draft without talking to Votto about a potential move to LF. He has played there in the past, albeit in a brief stint. Sure, no one has come out and said anything officially, but until Alonso gets here, they aren't going to say it because well, anything can happen and maybe something crazy does and he doesn't make it.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't think the team took Alonso in the top 10 of the draft without talking to Votto about a potential move to LF.

I do.

Joey Votto was a platooning rookie when they drafted Alonso. In fact I would almost guarantee they didn't talk to Votto or get his permission before they drafted Alonso. That's just not how these things work.

If the draft was today, it might be possible that they would consult someone like Votto (yet still questionable at best.) But Joey has come a long way from where he was last June. I think the team consulted Votto before drafting Alonso just as much as they consulted Jay Bruce before signing Juan Duran. In other words, there was zero input.

dougdirt
06-27-2009, 12:12 PM
I do.

Joey Votto was a platooning rookie when they drafted Alonso. In fact I would almost guarantee they didn't talk to Votto or get his permission before they drafted Alonso. That's just not how these things work.

If the draft was today, it might be possible that they would consult someone like Votto (yet still questionable at best.) But Joey has come a long way from where he was last June. I think the team consulted Votto before drafting Alonso just as much as they consulted Jay Bruce before signing Juan Duran. In other words, there was zero input.

I don't think they asked Votto about drafting Alonso, but once they did I bet they talked to him about a potential move to LF. He either went to them and asked 'why are we drafting a 1B?' or they went to him and said 'Joey, we just couldn't pass on this kid, he is the guy we think can help the Reds the most in the future but in order for that to happen we think you might need to move to LF because you have the athleticism to do so'. To think one of those two things didn't happen is burying your head in the sand.

camisadelgolf
06-27-2009, 12:16 PM
I'd rather the Reds put more effort toward competing in 2011 and 2012. With that said, if the Reds part with someone listed above, I'd want it to be someone who is far away from contributing. What do you think a package of Juan Francisco, J.C. Sulbaran, and Justin Reed could bring in?

Benihana
06-27-2009, 12:35 PM
I don't think they asked Votto about drafting Alonso, but once they did I bet they talked to him about a potential move to LF. He either went to them and asked 'why are we drafting a 1B?' or they went to him and said 'Joey, we just couldn't pass on this kid, he is the guy we think can help the Reds the most in the future but in order for that to happen we think you might need to move to LF because you have the athleticism to do so'. To think one of those two things didn't happen is burying your head in the sand.

Burying my head in the sand? Ok doug...

These conversations are getting more and more futile. I suppose you have some (even the slightest bit) of evidence to back any of this up? Or you're just making it all up on pure conjecture due to all of your front office experience?

corkedbat
06-27-2009, 12:45 PM
They should deal anyone they can from among Arroyo, Harang, Weathers, Phillips, Encarnacion and Cordero (if they can work a way around his no-trade).


As for the youngsters? They should be very sparing in dealing them. I think they could probably deal either Stubbs or Heisey, one from among Frazier, Francisco and Soto, Valaika (if he sweetened a deal and they could probably use three or for pitching prospects if the other team wanted them enough (I'd hold onto Bailey and Stewart though).

They need to find young guys who can help us now and in the future, know dealing four or five prospects for a rental like Holiday. Keep building for a solid sustainable future.

I wouldn't deal Alonzo at this time - that decison shouldn't be made until at least the offseason Alonzo hasn't proven himself well enough to bring a top return and they're are still questions to be answered between he and Votto.

I love Joey's game and would like to see them hold onto him, but I wouldn't put him in the untouchable category yet (close though). If he and Alonso can play 1B & LF in the same lineup fine, but if the Reds can land a young power hitter who is a natural OFer, better.

If it's the latter, then you look at dealing either Joey or Alonso. My knee-jerk reaction would be to hold on to Joey, but I think there are several things you have to consider:

Production. If you think that Yonder can give you similar production ata lower price and under club-control for a longer period then maybe you deal Joey.

Return. You might be looking at similar return for both Joey and Yonder a year from now, but what kind of premium might Toronto put on acquiring a young hometown slugger like Votto? Maybe none, but it is something to look into.

Intangibles. I have no idea what "issues" were involved with extending Joey's recent DL stint, I don't really care and certainly do not want to open that can of worms. The front office is aware though and they need to decide if it is an issue that will affect him on the field in the future. If so, it has to be factored in, if not, it should have no bearing.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 12:51 PM
Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso are NOT interchangeable. As we see this year with Matt LaPorta and Mat Gamel, top prospects can struggle mightily once they get to the big leagues. Alonso is at least a year away from even getting to that point. I would say there is virtually no chance that Alonso matches Votto's production over the next 2-3 years, and I like Alonso.

As far as Tornoto goes, there is no one in their organization that I would currently trade Joey Votto for.

corkedbat
06-27-2009, 01:00 PM
Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso are NOT interchangeable. As we saw earlier this year with Matt LaPorta, top prospects can struggle mightily in the big leagues. Alonso is at least a year away from even getting to that point. I would say there is virtually no chance that Alonso matches Votto's production over the next 2-3 years, and I like Alonso.

As far as Tornoto goes, there is no one in their organization that I would currently trade Joey Votto for.

That is the very reason I said in my post that you do not deal Alonso at this point unless you get bowled over by an offer. Otherwise, I don't think you consider moving Alonso for a year to 18 months. If someone offers me a standout young SS tomorrow for him though, he would be gone.

I don't see that happening though, so i hold on to him for another year at the very least and then I evaluate he and Joey and how they stand. I agree about Toronto's organization right now, but that may well change in the next couple of years.

Mario-Rijo
06-27-2009, 01:20 PM
I don't think the team took Alonso in the top 10 of the draft without talking to Votto about a potential move to LF. He has played there in the past, albeit in a brief stint. Sure, no one has come out and said anything officially, but until Alonso gets here, they aren't going to say it because well, anything can happen and maybe something crazy does and he doesn't make it.

If I recall Joey himself did state at some point after Alonso was drafted when asked that no one had ever suggested or asked him to make an eventual move to LF. Probably with good reason why would they ask way before they need to, they may never need to? He also IIRC didn't seem all that interested in that type of move. He didn't say he wouldn't but he sure didn't sound thrilled with the idea. It was then assumed by members of RZ that because he is a team player type of guy that he would just do it eventually for the good of the team. I was probably even a bit guilty of thinking he might. And who knows he might, but I wouldn't be putting anything in concrete about it.

camisadelgolf
06-27-2009, 01:41 PM
If I recall Joey himself did state at some point after Alonso was drafted when asked that no one had ever suggested or asked him to make an eventual move to LF. Probably with good reason why would they ask way before they need to, they may never need to? He also IIRC didn't seem all that interested in that type of move. He didn't say he wouldn't but he sure didn't sound thrilled with the idea. It was then assumed by members of RZ that because he is a team player type of guy that he would just do it eventually for the good of the team. I was probably even a bit guilty of thinking he might. And who knows he might, but I wouldn't be putting anything in concrete about it.
This is exactly how I remember it, too.

travisgrimes
06-27-2009, 02:08 PM
yonder alonso cannot be traded until one year to the day that he signed with us... a propsect has to be with the organization a year in order to be up for a trade (players from the draft)

Mario-Rijo
06-27-2009, 02:21 PM
In the real world, Stubbs (now below .280 at AAA) and a young, raw Francisco doesn't get you back a major hitter. I'm talking about a realistic effort to get a guy who would hit in the middle of the Reds order for a few years and actually improve the team.

In the real world? In the real world we might be surprised who other teams covet. I remember hearing last year how the Rockies were adamant about including Johnny Cueto and Juan Francisco in any deal for Holliday. Juan Francisco? Great Colorado what do you have that I can trade you Francisco for, my guess is they would still take him and consider him to be a top prospect. You don't hear a lot of rumbling about Stubbs but my guess is he is fairly highly thought of still, especially now with how people are placing such a high premium on defense once again. I'm sure people see the holes these guys have as well but are arrogant enough to believe they can fix them. Maybe they can.

Personally I'm with lollipopcurve on this one I'd be looking to fortify my major league team by dealing the likes of Francisco, Stubbs, Maloney, Lecure etc. But here is the thing with me I don't believe we need that "name" player. But instead I'd be going after guys who fit the puzzle better, who will provide close to similiar production but at a lesser price. I believe in that approach wholeheartedly. That one big bat perhaps changes alot of dynamics and that may not be a good thing. For example if getting say Holliday or Dye pushes BP back to 6th it's good only if BP continues to play his game, it could backfire. Now I'm not saying you don't make a deal just to appease Brandon's sensibilities. But if you get Scott Hairston platoon him with Nix in LF, maybe even platoon him a little in CF with Dickerson (I know probably wishful thinking in CF) you can bat him 5th or 6th still get relatively similiar production IMO as a Dye or Holliday and not really change as many of the dynamics. You have just made the team better for less in every way.

People will argue that Hairston can't put up similiar numbers to Dye and Holliday but I say Bologna. He'll put up plenty of power numbers in GABP and this division and do it at such a lesser price that people would be glad they never pursued any big name bats. Not to mention he would absolutely not cost more than a Francisco or Stubbs type of prospect plus one or 2 lesser.

I trade from this list initially:
Francisco
Maloney
LeCure
Manuel
Geronimo
Ramirez
Thompson
Sutton
Watson
Sappelt
Puckett
Coddington

I attempt to make trades of these names in order:
Macier Izturis
Scott Hairston
Mark DeRosa
Jeremy Hermida (He may cost too much but he'd be one I'd call about)
Garret Atkins

I hold these names back intially but am willing to part with them under the proper circumstances: (Not all of them but 1 of them in addition to the previous list)

Stubbs
Heisey
Valaika
Fisher
Roenicke
Wood
J. Smith
Dorn
Horst
Bucholz
Henry
Tatum
Wiley
Parker
Mes
Lotzkar
Buck
Rojas
Pawelek

I won't trade any of these guys unless I am getting a premier young player:
Alonso
Frazier
Soto
Stewart
Sulbaran
Cozart
Viola
Yorman
Duran

Mario-Rijo
06-27-2009, 02:25 PM
yonder alonso cannot be traded until one year to the day that he signed with us... a propsect has to be with the organization a year in order to be up for a trade (players from the draft)

Unless he is the PTBNL. Which if you made the trade close to the deadline would mean you'd just not bring him back from I.R. until August 16th. At which point he'd be shipped off to his new team.

gedred69
06-27-2009, 03:28 PM
From the moment the Reds drafted Alonso, I've seen him as a hedge against whether or not Votto was for real. If Votto proves to be the deal, then Alonso becomes a highly attractive trading card. It's still way too early to make that decision, given Alonso's injury and lackluster performance at AA, and Votto's absence when this team really needed him. Where do you think this team would be right now, if Votto had stayed on course? At even 85-90% of where he was at the first 2 months?

mth123
06-27-2009, 04:24 PM
Deal Stubbs. Keep Heisey with Dickerson as a hedge in CF.

Deal Francisco. Keep Soto.

Deal Valaika. Keep Cozart.

Keep Frazier as the supersub over Valaika and as a potential 3B over Francisco.

Deal Richar. Keep Sutton.

Deal Maloney. Keep Bailey with Ramirez as a hedge for now and Wood and Smith for longer term.

Deal Roenicke. Keep Fisher with Thompson as a hedge.

Deal Tatum. Keep Denove.

Guys to use as sweetener in deals: Sean Watson, Sam Lecure, Ben Jukich, Phil Valiquette, Robert Manual, Logan Parker.

Guys I'm content to keep and give more time, but would include in a deal if it got me what I needed: Devin Mesoraco, Sean Henry, Danny Dorn, Wilkin Castillo, Bill Bray, Dallas Buck, James Avery, Wes Bankston, Scott Carroll, Kyle Lotzkar, Logan Ondrusek.

Can't Touch This: Alonso, Leake, Stewart

Everybody else, not much of an opinion.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 04:54 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com



Pirates, Nationals Discussing Swap
By Nat Boyle [June 27 at 3:51pm CST]

SATURDAY, 3:51pm: MLB.com's Bill Ladson has confirmed through a source that the Nationals are in hot pursuit of Morgan. Milledge was offered, but the Pirates are seeking a starting pitcher or middle infielder.

Perfect time for the Reds to get involved:

Matt Maloney and Alex Gonzalez to Pittsburgh
Nyjer Morgan to Washington
Lastings Milledge to Cincinnati

What's wrong with that?! Sure it would be a JimBo special- trading pitching for a faded outfield prospect- but it's a high-upside move for the Reds. A Louisville OF of Heisey-Stubbs-Milledge would be very interesting, and could potentially supply the Reds with 2 starters for 2010. Danny Dorn could move to 1B full-time, or at least until Stubbs gets the call.

mth123
06-27-2009, 04:55 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com



Perfect time for the Reds to get involved:

Matt Maloney and Alex Gonzalez to Pittsburgh
Nyjer Morgan to Washington
Lastings Milledge to Cincinnati

What's wrong with that?!

Nothing if you're the Reds. Why would the Pirates want Alex Gonzalez?

HokieRed
06-27-2009, 04:58 PM
This is Lastings Milledge of the .398 major league OPS for this year and the .594 at AAA? Why bother?

Benihana
06-27-2009, 04:58 PM
Nothing if you're the Reds. Why would the Pirates want Alex Gonzalez?

They want a pitcher and/or a middle infielder. They need a lefty after demoting Snell, but if they want Maloney, they have to take Gonzalez for the rest of the year.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 05:00 PM
This is Lastings Milledge of the .398 major league OPS for this year and the .594 at AAA? Why bother?

Buy low: little risk, high reward. He still has the upside potential that made him one of the best prospects in the league. He's younger than Stubbs and Heisey.

He put up a .787 OPS in the majors at age 22. Much like Cantu and Gomes, I'd like to try to recapture some of that upside. Both of those players (would have) made very nice acquisitions.

mth123
06-27-2009, 05:02 PM
They want a pitcher and/or a middle infielder. They need a lefty after demoting Snell, but if they want Maloney, they have to take Gonzalez for the rest of the year.

They don't want that middle infielder any more than we want Jack Wilson to solve our SS of the future problem. I think Gonzalez is still owed about $3 Million for the rest of the year. No way do the Pirates do that. You may be able to make that deal for Maloney alone, but if I deal a close to MLB ready starter, I want more than Miledge.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 05:05 PM
They don't want that middle infielder any more than we want Jack Wilson to solve our SS of the future problem. I think Gonzalez is still owed about $3 Million for the rest of the year. No way do the Pirates do that. You may be able to make that deal for Maloney alone, but if I deal a close to MLB ready starter, I want more than Miledge.

I would also offer Drew Sutton straight up. Milledge has worn out his welcome in Washington, I don't think he would cost much right now.

mth123
06-27-2009, 05:10 PM
I would also offer Drew Sutton straight up. Milledge has worn out his welcome in Washington, I don't think he would cost much right now.

That's better, and I wouldn't mind a flyer on Milledge, but is he really much better than Sean Henry with NY hype? He seems to be a tweener with too little glove for CF and too little bat for the corners.

Benihana
06-27-2009, 05:21 PM
That's better, and I wouldn't mind a flyer on Milledge, but is he really much better than Sean Henry with NY hype? He seems to be a tweener with too little glove for CF and too little bat for the corners.

Yes he's better than Sean Henry, and you can't really call it NY hype considering both were drafted by and came from the Mets. Milledge was a top 10 prospect coming out of high school, Henry was a throw-in to the Jeff Conine deal. I'd say they have very different ceilings.

Plus Plus
06-27-2009, 11:15 PM
Why do the Reds need more C grade outfielders that might succeed with more PT? Nix, Gomes, and then Milledge would put the Reds into a very Washingtonian OF situation.

urdun
06-28-2009, 04:57 AM
They want a pitcher and/or a middle infielder. They need a lefty after demoting Snell, but if they want Maloney, they have to take Gonzalez for the rest of the year.

Why would they need a LHP after demoting a RHP and they already have Duke, Maholm and Gorzellany all LHP's?

reds44
06-28-2009, 05:02 AM
Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso are NOT interchangeable. As we see this year with Matt LaPorta and Mat Gamel, top prospects can struggle mightily once they get to the big leagues. Alonso is at least a year away from even getting to that point. I would say there is virtually no chance that Alonso matches Votto's production over the next 2-3 years, and I like Alonso.

As far as Tornoto goes, there is no one in their organization that I would currently trade Joey Votto for.
Yonder Alonso's ceiling is probably Joey Votto. Votto is 25 years old. If one is going to be traded it should be Alonso.

reds44
06-28-2009, 05:03 AM
I would also offer Drew Sutton straight up. Milledge has worn out his welcome in Washington, I don't think he would cost much right now.
Drew Sutton won't land you Lastings milledge. Drew Sutton is nothing but minor league filler with a chance to be a bench player someday.

reds44
06-28-2009, 05:04 AM
Why do the Reds need more C grade outfielders that might succeed with more PT? Nix, Gomes, and then Milledge would put the Reds into a very Washingtonian OF situation.
Milledge has far more upside than Nix and Gomes.

mth123
06-28-2009, 06:04 AM
Milledge has far more upside than Nix and Gomes.

I don't see it. Nix and Gomes have the power required to at least platoon in an OF corner. If Milledge doesn't have the glove for CF, he's not every day player material IMO. He could be a pretty decent 4th OF and I wouldn't mind him platooning in CF with Dickerson to save bucks while guys like Willy and Hairston are cut loose, but with Stubbs and Heisey already on board, Milledge seems unnecessary. I'd take a flyer on him, but it would have to be for something really cheap. Maloney could be used in a deal for a more pressing need and I wouldn't want to waste the trade chip on Milledge.

lollipopcurve
06-28-2009, 08:25 AM
Milledge is about to go to his 3rd team in, what, 2 years? Buyer beware.

The Reds are set with young OFs. Don't sacrifice talent for a guy who's worn out his welcome in 2 places already, for the privilege of sticking that guy in front of players you've drafted and developed and who have worked their way up through your system. I mean, why subject your organization to that kind of risk?

I really like Nyjer Morgan, and I think Pittsburgh will regret making this deal, if it happens.

nate
06-28-2009, 08:32 AM
Milledge is about to go to his 3rd team in, what, 2 years? Buyer beware.

The Reds are set with young OFs. Don't sacrifice talent for a guy who's worn out his welcome in 2 places already, for the privilege of sticking that guy in front of players you've drafted and developed and who have worked their way up through your system. I mean, why subject your organization to that kind of risk?

I really like Nyjer Morgan, and I think Pittsburgh will regret making this deal, if it happens.

I like Morgan too.

Benihana
06-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Milledge is about to go to his 3rd team in, what, 2 years? Buyer beware.

The Reds are set with young OFs. Don't sacrifice talent for a guy who's worn out his welcome in 2 places already, for the privilege of sticking that guy in front of players you've drafted and developed and who have worked their way up through your system. I mean, why subject your organization to that kind of risk?

I really like Nyjer Morgan, and I think Pittsburgh will regret making this deal, if it happens.

Sometimes it takes these guys that long to really reach their potential, especially if they are immature.

Look at examples like Adrian Gonzalez, Carlos Pena, and even Jose Guillen. Perhaps the most relevant example would be Brandon Phillips. Those guys were all former top prospects that didn't become full-time everyday players until at least their third team before blossoming into All-Stars. Sometimes it just takes a little longer, and teams get impatient. It's the perfect opportunity to buy low.

It's the same reason why I would love to take a flyer on Delmon Young. Ditto for Cameron Maybin if he ever became available.

You say the Reds are set with young OFs, but are they? Do you know who's going to be playing LF in Cincinnati for the next 5+ years?

Benihana
06-28-2009, 12:38 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com


Nationals Scouting Outfield Options?
By Eddie Schmid [June 27 at 7:44pm CST]

Talks have swirled this weekend about the Nationals' pursuit of Pirates CF Nyjer Morgan, but it looks like he's not the only outfielder on the team's radar. Bill Ladson at MLB.com has updated his previous post on the discussions, and this time he throws Braves CF prospect Jordan Schafer's name into the mix as a potential target for the Nats.

Ladson says the Nationals are seeking an improvement in their outfield defense, as they have apparently concluded that Adam Dunn and Josh Willingham profile more as designated hitters and Elijah Dukes still makes too many mental errors. Schafer was sent down earlier this season to make room for Nate McLouth, but it isn't clear if the Braves would be willing to move him.

It seems like the Nats are looking for a young, cost-controlled and speedy outfielder as well as a defensively adept one. Who else comes to mind that might be attainable for the Nationals?


Interestingly, I think there could be a real fit here for the Reds and the Nats to make a deal. One side has an abundance of speedy CFs and a need for a power-hitting LF, the other is the inverse. Could the Reds package Heisey for one or more of their corner OFs- Milledge/Dukes/Willingham/Johnson/Dunn? :eek:


(Obviously I hope the rest of this thread doesn't focus on Dunn, as he's only signed for the rest of this year anyway.)

nate
06-28-2009, 12:44 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com)




Interestingly, I think there could be a real fit here for the Reds and the Nats to make a deal. One side has an abundance of speedy CFs and a need for a power-hitting LF, the other is the inverse. Could the Reds package Heisey for one or more of their corner OFs- Milledge/Dukes/Willingham/Johnson/Dunn? :eek:


(Obviously I hope the rest of this thread doesn't focus on Dunn, as he's only signed for the rest of this year anyway.)

I thought he had a two year deal?

mth123
06-28-2009, 12:51 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com




Interestingly, I think there could be a real fit here for the Reds and the Nats to make a deal. One side has an abundance of speedy CFs and a need for a power-hitting LF, the other is the inverse. Could the Reds package Heisey for one or more of their corner OFs- Milledge/Dukes/Willingham/Johnson/Dunn? :eek:


(Obviously I hope the rest of this thread doesn't focus on Dunn, as he's only signed for the rest of this year anyway.)


Taveras for Willingham!!!!!

Benihana
06-28-2009, 03:17 PM
In response to the Nyjer Morgan/Lastings Milledge rumors, Olney says Washington is determined to purge their system of dysfunctional players.

Looks like Milledge will be changing teams soon, and Dukes might be as well. I hope the Reds get involved.

Benihana
06-28-2009, 03:19 PM
Taveras for Willingham!!!!!

In all seriousness, if the Reds ate the salary difference, why not?

In other news, does anyone know the contract status of Gomes and Nix? Are they signed beyond this year?

camisadelgolf
06-29-2009, 02:17 AM
In other news, does anyone know the contract status of Gomes and Nix? Are they signed beyond this year?
Neither is signed beyond this year.

11larkin11
06-29-2009, 02:48 AM
In all seriousness, if the Reds ate the salary difference, why not?

In other news, does anyone know the contract status of Gomes and Nix? Are they signed beyond this year?

Willingham has been heating up, raising his trade value. And, the Natinals now have a competent GM. I think it would take more than Taveras.

mth123
06-29-2009, 03:36 AM
Willingham has been heating up, raising his trade value. And, the Natinals now have a competent GM. I think it would take more than Taveras.

Taveras and Maloney but no eating of money. The Nats should do that and so should the Reds. Willingham slides in as a platoon partner with Bruce (or with Nix while Gomes moves to RF). An OF with Willingham, Hairston and Gomes might be a little brutal though. Getting Taveras off the books ($4 Million) helps 2010. Nats might be interested in a guy like Valaika or Sutton instead of Maloney. The Reds may want to hold on to the pitching depth.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 09:36 AM
Id be open to trading pretty much anyone from the AA teams or the AAA teams other than Yonder, and Stewart. The market of talent on the market isnt really that good unless someone drops a big name out there.

redsfandan
06-30-2009, 06:43 AM
I thought he had a two year deal?
'09 is the 1st year of a 2 year/$20m deal for Dunn. $8m this year, $12m in 2010. He's been in the majors nearly a decade but he's only had 1 year and 2 year deals.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 10:24 AM
Taveras and Maloney but no eating of money. The Nats should do that and so should the Reds. Willingham slides in as a platoon partner with Bruce (or with Nix while Gomes moves to RF). An OF with Willingham, Hairston and Gomes might be a little brutal though. Getting Taveras off the books ($4 Million) helps 2010. Nats might be interested in a guy like Valaika or Sutton instead of Maloney. The Reds may want to hold on to the pitching depth.

I thought it had been established pretty soundly that platooning Bruce in his age 22 season would only hinder his development? I don't think this trade does anything useful other than shipping WT out of the ballpark.

corkedbat
06-30-2009, 10:53 AM
I thought it had been established pretty soundly that platooning Bruce in his age 22 season would only hinder his development? I don't think this trade does anything useful other than shipping WT out of the ballpark.

That is never a bad thing, but I don't think I'd do the deal. I don't ssee Willingham (or wiggington) as a huge improvement over Nix/Gomes abd it just adds another so-so vet to muddy up things in front of the kids. I'm not a huge fan of Delmon Yong, but I'd rather see a deal for him.

mth123
06-30-2009, 08:06 PM
I thought it had been established pretty soundly that platooning Bruce in his age 22 season would only hinder his development? I don't think this trade does anything useful other than shipping WT out of the ballpark.

The Reds are buyers and trying to win in 2009. IMO development takes a back seat to maximizing the chance to win under those conditions. That means that Bruce and his .589 OPS vs. lefties sits when a lefty is on the mound. He can play winter ball to see more lefty pitching.

If development is the goal, then no trade like this makes any sense. Start dumping some vets and try to pick up more prospects. I'd be especially after ones who can play SS, C and starting pitchers with impact potential. Under those conditions Bruce should play every day.

Maloney for Willingham improves the team even if Willingham is a bench player. The Reds don't have very good bench players.

Benihana
06-30-2009, 08:10 PM
The Reds are buyers and trying to win in 2009. IMO development takes a back seat to maximizing the chance to win under those conditions. That means that Bruce and his .589 OPS vs. lefties sits when a lefty is on the mound. He can play winter ball to see more lefty pitching.

If development is the goal, then no trade like this makes any sense. Start dumping some vets and try to pick up more prospects. I'd be especially after ones who can play SS, C and starting pitchers with impact potential. Under those conditions Bruce should play every day.

Maloney for Willingham improves the team even if Willingham is a bench player. The Reds don't have very good bench players.

:thumbup: