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nemesis
06-29-2009, 06:10 PM
I'm not trying to start a long back and forth thread. I'm just passng along hearsay. I have a friend who went to college with some people in the Reds front office. We were texting and he asked me if I knew who Matt Holliday was. So I call him... We chat a bit about it and basically from his "source" aka buddy... yada yada... The A's have been calling the Reds trying to make a deal. I guess the deal revolves around EdE. I m not sure that makes sense unless... 1) They are going after Wiggington as a 3B replacement. 2) Beane thinks EdE will be a type A FA in 2 years or he can flip him next year for more prospects. 3) They are moving EdE to open 3B for Frazier next year. Also the A's want some LHP in AAA. I am guessing Viola and they also want Chris Dickerson. Take it for what it's worth. My guy isn't a Baseball fan at all, so I don't have much reason not to belive him but you never know. Just passing along info.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 06:15 PM
lot of movement for a baseball trade.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Although if they were going after Derosa it does kinda fit.

BLEEDS
06-29-2009, 06:20 PM
This exact trade was being discussed in the ORG, not sure if it's merely coincidence.

I would definitely consider trading HIGH on EdE right now, especially if the Reds are high on Frazier.
If they made this trade, would they consider bringing up Frazier this year?

I would think Beane might be interested in Maloney, where his fly balls become quiet outs in Oakland instead of souveniers in GABP.

If we could sign the guy long-term, I'd be all about it.

For a rental, I couldn't give that much up.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

defender
06-29-2009, 06:22 PM
The Reds have some good young players. I would not be surprised if the A's are calling them. That doesn't help the Reds enough, unless they also have 3bman lined up.

Captain Hook
06-29-2009, 06:23 PM
Ed E,Dickerson and probably some middle tier prospect for Holliday basically.I'd bite in a second especially if the Reds got Wiggington in a reasonably good trade that didn't require a top tier prospect or pitching.Hope your source is on to something.

GIDP
06-29-2009, 06:29 PM
I mean this is probably 100% made up because this would give the team 3 LFers and no real upgrade.

nemesis
06-29-2009, 06:38 PM
I mean this is probably 100% made up because this would give the team 3 LFers and no real upgrade.

It could be. Like I said just an interesting conversation.

As far as 3 LF goes. No so much with Dickerson gone. Nix would be the 4th OF. Gomes your super pinch hitter. Hariston super sub or your 3B. Hanigan, Janish backups.

This trade doesn't answer the hole at 3B or SS but who knows. Maybe the Reds see it as an oppurtunity to compete this year and if they fall short they still get Type A compensation with 2 addtional players that have higher ceilings than Maloney/Viola and Dickerson or all this could be complete BS. Don't know. Interesting to think about though.

xavr1
06-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Haha, as much as this is probably patent hearsay, I cant help myself from getting excited about it. I would love the deal. Count me out of the camp of EdE apologists and supporters. If we can get value for him in a trade, I think thats better than waiting for him to produce value at the plate.

gilpdawg
06-29-2009, 08:41 PM
I don't buy this for one second. But if it did happen there is no way he signs with the Reds long term. Zero chance.

RedsFanIN
06-29-2009, 08:57 PM
I dont like the idea of parting with Dickerson because that would put WT back in the lineup full time. However, Holliday is the type of player that could push us to the top of the Central. Either way you cut it the Reds are winners. They make a run this year, and it doesnt mortgage ot future (with this proposed deal).

travisgrimes
06-29-2009, 09:06 PM
the only way i make this deal is if we can sign him to a long term deal

DTCromer
06-29-2009, 09:18 PM
I dont like the idea of parting with Dickerson because that would put WT back in the lineup full time. However, Holliday is the type of player that could push us to the top of the Central. Either way you cut it the Reds are winners. They make a run this year, and it doesnt mortgage ot future (with this proposed deal).

We're not winning this year and Dickerson is a good 4th OF option for when Stubbs and/or Heisey is called up. Stubbs is the CF for the future so losing Dickerson is no huge loss.

If we gave up EE, Viola, and Dickerson for Holliday, I'd crap my pants. I'm not a big fan of getting Holliday unless we sign him long term, but if we're buying in 4 weeks and he's a rental, then I'd seriously consider it. I still don't think I would pull the trigger.

Captain Hook
06-29-2009, 09:21 PM
I dont like the idea of parting with Dickerson because that would put WT back in the lineup full time. However, Holliday is the type of player that could push us to the top of the Central. Either way you cut it the Reds are winners. They make a run this year, and it doesnt mortgage ot future (with this proposed deal).

Too bad that Taveras is so bad that he kills trade ideas even when he isn't involved.Who knows though maybe be trade for a new CF as well.While we're at it we could also use a SS and 3B.Get to work Walt!!

travisgrimes
06-29-2009, 09:22 PM
I would cuz 3B is maybe the deepest position in the Reds minor leagues right now with guys like Frazier, Francisco and Soto so losing EdE would be no huge loss and dickerson and viola are spot starters at best. But if we can sign him long term then i would pull the trigger in a second.

Chris Sabowned
06-29-2009, 09:44 PM
This might be a realistic trade. Chris Dickerson seems like a Billy Beane type, high OBP, sees a lot of pitches. I don't even like it though. LF is not our weakness, we need a 3B or SS.

redhawk61
06-29-2009, 10:03 PM
who knows, maybe Walt was trying to work on something where I lineup rounded out as, that is until Derosa went elsewhere

WT CF
Hairston SS
Votto 1b
Holliday LF
Phillips 2b
Bruce RF
Derosa 3b
Hernandez C

Jones1
06-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Id give up cdick, and a low level prospect for half a season of Holiday. No way for Edwin! Only way I give up Edwin is if Holiday signs a LTC and with him being a Boras client IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. let someone else pay too much for Holiday.

mroby85
06-30-2009, 01:18 AM
Id give up cdick, and a low level prospect for half a season of Holiday. No way for Edwin! Only way I give up Edwin is if Holiday signs a LTC and with him being a Boras client IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. let someone else pay too much for Holiday.

Personally, I'd much much rather trade Edwin than Dickerson, but i'd still probably pull the trigger on this deal.

flash
06-30-2009, 10:20 AM
This is crazy. A straight EE for Holiday might make sense , but the Reds are loaded with outfield prospects and Holiday isn't exactly tearing up the league this year. Dickerson has too much of an upside to trade. Hewill be good.

Billy Beane has dug himself a hole and is struggling. The A's may be worse than the Reds offensively.

No Way

Pony Boy
06-30-2009, 12:16 PM
We're not winning this year and Dickerson is a good 4th OF option for when Stubbs and/or Heisey is called up. Stubbs is the CF for the future so losing Dickerson is no huge loss.

If we gave up EE, Viola, and Dickerson for Holliday, I'd crap my pants. I'm not a big fan of getting Holliday unless we sign him long term, but if we're buying in 4 weeks and he's a rental, then I'd seriously consider it. I still don't think I would pull the trigger.


Why can't we win this year? We are 3 games out at the end of June without the services of Votto for most of June. If Volquez can come back soon, and we can add a big righty bat like Holliday, I like the Reds' chances in the central.

The one aspect of this trade I don't like is giving up Dickerson. I think an outfield of Holliday (LF), Dickerson (C) and Bruce (RF) would be a big boost. Of course this would also require Dusty's daughter breaking up with Taveras before the All Star break.

Jones1
06-30-2009, 03:34 PM
Dickerson has never proved that he's ever going to be a good hitter, where as Edwin has! Chris is also older than Edwin. Not sure why everyone is ready to throw in the towel on a 26 year old that can put up 30hrs, hit 280 and OPS over 800. What is your logic Dickerson can come close to that, his stats from last Sept? I just dont see Dickerson ever hitting that well, he never came close to that in five years of minor league play. No way it just happens!

Cdick is from LA he would love playing for the A's, We have guys coming up in the system that have much more upside than Dickerson(Heisey, Stubbs). You pull the trigger on trading Dickerson for Holiday and hope we make a strong run and can keep Holiday in a Reds Uni for years to come, who knows. But you DONT I, I REPEAT DON'T trade a guy that can give you the offense Edwin can at the price he costs for the next two seasons.

We have prospects better than Dickerson, We don't for Edwin which means we have to pay for high profile FA at third. NO THANKS.

I like Chris but you pull the trigger...

Jones1
06-30-2009, 03:36 PM
This is crazy. A straight EE for Holiday might make sense , but the Reds are loaded with outfield prospects and Holiday isn't exactly tearing up the league this year. Dickerson has too much of an upside to trade. Hewill be good.

Billy Beane has dug himself a hole and is struggling. The A's may be worse than the Reds offensively.

No Way

What gives you the notion Chris will be good or for that matter duplicate what Edwin has already done offensively?

nemesis
06-30-2009, 06:04 PM
Not to stir the pot.. Both EE and Dickerson out of the lineups today. Please let there be some movement...

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 06:15 PM
It has already been established that EE was getting a day off and that Dickerson is not better than WT according to Dusty.

nemesis
06-30-2009, 06:31 PM
Dickerson is not better than WT according to Dusty.

This here is why Dusty was a bad choice for manager. Dusty is a vet kinda guy. If given the choice between a struggling vet and a hot hittng younger player, he'll play the vet out of some sense of loyalty... (See Patterson, Corey - Bako, Paul - Tavaeras, Willy - Hariston, Jerry - Gonzalez, Alex- Hernandez, Ramon) I can live with giving players a chance to breakout of slumps but it's beyond words anymore...

urdun
06-30-2009, 06:42 PM
I like Holliday as a good fit on the field but financially I don't see it working out. I'd definitely make an offer for Orlando Cabrera though, he signed for 4 million so we'd only be on the hook for about 2 million. Very good defender, decent bat and he could be the answer to next years SS question. But he's not signed for next year and he could be a type A free agent who it wouldn't really hurt us to offer him arbitration and have him accept.

DTCromer
06-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Why can't we win this year? We are 3 games out at the end of June without the services of Votto for most of June. If Volquez can come back soon, and we can add a big righty bat like Holliday, I like the Reds' chances in the central.

The one aspect of this trade I don't like is giving up Dickerson. I think an outfield of Holliday (LF), Dickerson (C) and Bruce (RF) would be a big boost. Of course this would also require Dusty's daughter breaking up with Taveras before the All Star break.

Because "it's not our year." I don't want to trade someone so we can lose in the NLCS. I'm not in it to win an NLCS or Divisional playoff series. This team still has too many holes to compete for a World Series title.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 07:39 PM
Because "it's not our year." I don't want to trade someone so we can lose in the NLCS. I'm not in it to win an NLCS or Divisional playoff series. This team still has too many holes to compete for a World Series title.

The St. Louis Cardinals won the WS in 2006 with a record of 83-78. I would not say that they were a team you would have ever picked to win the WS that year, but the name of the game is getting hot in October. Get to the playoffs, and then see what happens-- it is the same way in any sport.

The Reds can get to the playoffs this year, and what's keeping them from winning 3/5, 4/7, and 4/7? IMHO, nothing.

flash
06-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Dickerson has never proved that he's ever going to be a good hitter, where as Edwin has! Chris is also older than Edwin. Not sure why everyone is ready to throw in the towel on a 26 year old that can put up 30hrs, hit 280 and OPS over 800. What is your logic Dickerson can come close to that, his stats from last Sept? I just dont see Dickerson ever hitting that well, he never came close to that in five years of minor league play. No way it just happens!

Cdick is from LA he would love playing for the A's, We have guys coming up in the system that have much more upside than Dickerson(Heisey, Stubbs). You pull the trigger on trading Dickerson for Holiday and hope we make a strong run and can keep Holiday in a Reds Uni for years to come, who knows. But you DONT I, I REPEAT DON'T trade a guy that can give you the offense Edwin can at the price he costs for the next two seasons.

We have prospects better than Dickerson, We don't for Edwin which means we have to pay for high profile FA at third. NO THANKS.

I like Chris but you pull the trigger...

First of all, I didn't say anything about throwing in the towel on EE. I said I's trade him straight up for Holiday. That is not a throw-away.

Secondly, EE has never hit 30 HR's, he has hit .280 once in five years and had an OPS of .800 twice. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by him.

Thirdly, right now I believe Dickerson is a better centerfielder than Taveras. It was a bad signing. Dickerson made some adjustments last year that changed his career. He made some more this year and has raised his average considerably. I'm not sure, but I think he has rasied his BA at least 60 points this month.

Fouthly, I really don't think Stubbs will be anything more than a pinch-hitter, a la MacDonald. He never has performed exceptionally well at any level. You complain that Dickerson didn't have stats in the minors. Well, Stubbs has been less impressive. Heisey and Fraizer, I'll admit have some impressive stats. It will be nice to see them continue to impress.

Plus Plus
06-30-2009, 11:05 PM
Thirdly, right now I believe Dickerson is a better centerfielder than Taveras. It was a bad signing. Dickerson made some adjustments last year that changed his career. He made some more this year and has raised his average considerably. I'm not sure, but I think he has rasied his BA at least 60 points this month.

The problem with CD going into the season is that he was 26 as a rookie and was never a highly regarded prospect in the Reds' organization, besides being called the most athletic prospect they had. I saw him on very few top 25 lists. Handing him the CF job based on 102 ABs in the majors would have been a little scary. Maybe not to you or me, but almost certainly to those in charge of the organization.

However, no problem warrants signing WT. He is absolutely pathetic. Just pointing out that handing Dickerson the starting CF job going into the season might have been out of the realm of possibility to the head honchos.

40YrRedsFan
06-30-2009, 11:32 PM
IMO, we do not have enough to make a run this year. Volquez hurt, Harang and Arroyo, and Owings up and down, and except for Votto, the offense is very weak. I don't think the Reds would pay Holiday what he would want, even though it would be interesting to see him hit in GABP. If EE can come back by the end of July, then give him the final 2 months to show what he can do. If he doesn't produce, get someone else for 2010.

Ghosts of 1990
06-30-2009, 11:56 PM
IMO, we do not have enough to make a run this year. Volquez hurt, Harang and Arroyo, and Owings up and down, and except for Votto, the offense is very weak. I don't think the Reds would pay Holiday what he would want, even though it would be interesting to see him hit in GABP. If EE can come back by the end of July, then give him the final 2 months to show what he can do. If he doesn't produce, get someone else for 2010.

Francisco (cough).

Plus Plus
07-01-2009, 12:03 AM
Skipping Frazier, are we?

bounty37h
07-01-2009, 10:14 AM
The St. Louis Cardinals won the WS in 2006 with a record of 83-78. I would not say that they were a team you would have ever picked to win the WS that year, but the name of the game is getting hot in October. Get to the playoffs, and then see what happens-- it is the same way in any sport.

The Reds can get to the playoffs this year, and what's keeping them from winning 3/5, 4/7, and 4/7? IMHO, nothing.

:thumbup: I 100% agree, get through the reg season and make the playoffs, and anything can happen for any team. We havent even been able to get there in years now.

OesterPoster
07-01-2009, 10:40 AM
Francisco (cough).

Francisco would get eaten alive by MLB pitchers. He might connect on a few tape measure HRs, but he'd also strikeout a ton...not to mention, he's completely allergic to taking a walk.

Frazier is a better long-term answer at 3B, in my opinion.

DTCromer
07-01-2009, 10:45 AM
The St. Louis Cardinals won the WS in 2006 with a record of 83-78. I would not say that they were a team you would have ever picked to win the WS that year, but the name of the game is getting hot in October. Get to the playoffs, and then see what happens-- it is the same way in any sport.

The Reds can get to the playoffs this year, and what's keeping them from winning 3/5, 4/7, and 4/7? IMHO, nothing.

I disagree. Look at the recent World Series winners and their leadoff hitters. With the exception of the Diamondbacks, they all had very good leadoff hitters. (David Eckstein was on 2 of those teams believe it or not.) AZ was an exception because they had 2 HOF-type. pitchers at the top of their rotation.

IMO, here is the priority of our needs.

1. Leadoff hitter via SS or CF
2. Top of the line pitcher to compliment Cueto
3. RH Power bat

We need a legitimate table setter at the top of our lineup. We're very, very close to a very good lineup. Our SP isn't as good as people think as I think we're 10th, or something along those lines, in the NL among SP ERA.

People are quick to mention that we NEED Holliday, but what good does it do

GIDP
07-01-2009, 10:49 AM
Why do we need strictly a right handed power bat?

Pony Boy
07-01-2009, 11:07 AM
Because "it's not our year." I don't want to trade someone so we can lose in the NLCS. I'm not in it to win an NLCS or Divisional playoff series. This team still has too many holes to compete for a World Series title.

Well I would be thrilled to lose in the NLCS this year. I would be thrilled just to be back in the national baseball conversation. We are within striking distance.

Also, why can't it be our year? We have the starting pitching and the bullpen to compete with any NL club. Adding one more legitimate bat to this lineup would do wonders.

BLEEDS
07-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Why do we need strictly a right handed power bat?

I don't truly understand it either.

I think the idea is to "split up the lefties" in Votto and Bruce, in theory, since those guys are supposed to be the Big Lefy bats, although Bruce isn't holding up his end of the bargain.

What we really need is people who can hit RHP, which only a few folks do well at all.

EdE and BP crush LHP, but struggle vs. RHP. Unfortunately 70%+ of their AB's come against RHP.

Wily T sucks, versus both RHP and LHP, but that could be fixed by deleting him and adding in ChrisD.

I guess the idea of putting THREE lefties in the OF, and playing them against RHP would just make Dusty's head explode...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

flash
07-01-2009, 02:26 PM
The problem with CD going into the season is that he was 26 as a rookie and was never a highly regarded prospect in the Reds' organization, besides being called the most athletic prospect they had. I saw him on very few top 25 lists. Handing him the CF job based on 102 ABs in the majors would have been a little scary. Maybe not to you or me, but almost certainly to those in charge of the organization.

However, no problem warrants signing WT. He is absolutely pathetic. Just pointing out that handing Dickerson the starting CF job going into the season might have been out of the realm of possibility to the head honchos.

Just a bit of trivia. Who replaced Taveras as Colorado's centerfielder?

Hint: He was a 23 year old rookie who had never played above AA. He had a total of 26 major league AB's. He is batting .253 right now.

REDblooded
07-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Just a bit of trivia. Who replaced Taveras as Colorado's centerfielder?

Hint: He was a 23 year old rookie who had never played above AA. He had a total of 26 major league AB's. He is batting .253 right now.

Easy... without look, Dexter Fowler. A top 25 prospect.

Plus Plus
07-01-2009, 03:30 PM
Just a bit of trivia. Who replaced Taveras as Colorado's centerfielder?

Hint: He was a 23 year old rookie who had never played above AA. He had a total of 26 major league AB's. He is batting .253 right now.

Fowler also OPSed nearly 100 points higher in his age 22 season at AA than Dickerson did in his age 26 season at AAA, which was Dickerson's highest OPS year in the minors. He was a highly heralded prospect for the Rockies, as he crushed the 2008 futures game (if I remember correctly) and played in the 2008 olympics.

flash
07-01-2009, 07:52 PM
Fowler also OPSed nearly 100 points higher in his age 22 season at AA than Dickerson did in his age 26 season at AAA, which was Dickerson's highest OPS year in the minors. He was a highly heralded prospect for the Rockies, as he crushed the 2008 futures game (if I remember correctly) and played in the 2008 olympics.

Fowler had one good season at AA which is what made him such a prospect.
Let's compare the two now

Dickerson BA. .277, OBP .380, SLG .389, OPS .744
Fowler BA .253, OBP .342, SLG .386, OPS .722

Dickerson is beating him in every catagory. Dickerson's performance has also steadily improved while Fowler's has declined over time. I have no problem with a rookie in center.

Plus Plus
07-01-2009, 10:49 PM
Fowler was 3 years younger in AA than Dickerson. And you are throwing out the 130 PAs Dickerson had in his age 25 season at AA before going to AAA.

The fact of the matter is that before Dickerson got off to a Bonds-on-steroids level start in the end of 2008, he was regarded as minor league filler in OF. Fowler was never regarded as such.

flash
07-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Okay, when Dickerson was 22 he hit .303 at Dayton. He then struggled for a few years, but he was always considered to have great potential because he had all the tools to be a major league player. He fnally put it all together last year. BTW, I do consider him to be better than Fowler.

Another former runner-up for ROY was a centerfielder who now plays for the Reds. He had a total of 1 MLB AB when he took over the starting position for his club. He batted .335 at AA when he was 22. Can you name him? (I think Dickerson is better than him too.)

But don't tell me rookies can't be regulars. And check out this Dickerson write-up
http://redlegsbaseball.blogspot.com/2009/03/2009-top-prospect-list-6-chris.html

Plus Plus
07-02-2009, 04:33 PM
I'm not talking about rookies. I'm talking about prospects that were regarded as organizational depth prior to 100 ABs in the majors.

That would be like Adam Pettyjohn being promoted in September, throwing 4 starts of 2.00 ERA 8K/9 baseball and then being the opening day starter the next year.