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View Full Version : Since Hernandez has taken over behind the plate our pitching has stunk.



Kingspoint
07-01-2009, 08:29 PM
I'm only talking about recently, not what the team's ERA was when each guy caught before the Toronto series.

Just since Votto's been back. Our pitching has stunk with Hernandez behind the plate.

I just don't understand Baker's stubbornness to sit Hanigan.

Talk about ruining a guy. Hanigan has been consistent all season, and Baker's trying his best to turn to ruin this guy's season.

texasdave
07-01-2009, 08:31 PM
Hanigan gets on base too much. And Dusty can't be bothered with all those decisions like do I sacrifice, do I hit and run. And, most importantly, when is Taveras getting up again?

Kingspoint
07-01-2009, 08:35 PM
And Sutton wasn't brought up to sit on the bench, Dusty.

He was brought up because he's great at getting on Base and should be playing instead of Richar and/or Hairston.

Unbeleivably frustrating.

I hope Dusty gets a beer spilled on him.

CesarGeronimo
07-01-2009, 08:53 PM
Just why is Richar starting? When you consider offense and defense, he's the worst option among Sutton, Janish and him. Richar is a mediocre minor league player at 26, and was having another mediocre season in Louisville. He doesn't belong on an MLB bench, let alone to start. Injuries are obviously the reason he's in Cincinnati, but why start him?

Kingspoint
07-01-2009, 09:02 PM
Just why is Richar starting? When you consider offense and defense, he's the worst option among Sutton, Janish and him. Richar is a mediocre minor league player at 26, and was having another mediocre season in Louisville. He doesn't belong on an MLB bench, let alone to start. Injuries are obviously the reason he's in Cincinnati, but why start him?

If Baker was trying to get fired he couldn't be doing a better job. I wish Walt and the the owners would accomodate him.

I'm so sick of the beat writers not making Baker accountable for this and instead of tossing him softballs for questions, hit him with some hard ones.

Like, "fans in Cincinnati can't understand how you can play one guy over another who's OPS is more than 200 points different". Why do you do it? And, when he gives that BS answer that was posted over at Old Red Guard, a quick rebuttal should be exactly what they said at ORG, "What the heck are you talking about? What kind of mumbo-jumbo is that?"

Plus Plus
07-01-2009, 11:48 PM
Richar starting is puzzling to me as well. He has played 6 games at 3b in his career before this year, if I remember right, and that adds together minor league and major league stats. I don't get why he would be starting at the hot corner ever.

And the reason he is not being asked such hard questions is probably due to the fact that there just aren't enough journalism jobs out there. Anyone who asked the questions you did would probably be fired and cause Dusty to not do interviews any more. I guess they decided that the little vanilla info that we get from Dusty on a daily basis is better than the alternative.

NorrisHopper30
07-02-2009, 03:13 AM
Hernandez has caught only 6 shutouts this year.

Weak.

Jones1
07-02-2009, 01:16 PM
Just why is Richar starting? When you consider offense and defense, he's the worst option among Sutton, Janish and him. Richar is a mediocre minor league player at 26, and was having another mediocre season in Louisville. He doesn't belong on an MLB bench, let alone to start. Injuries are obviously the reason he's in Cincinnati, but why start him?

Why Richar is starting over Janish at 3rd I have no Idea the guy has had very limited experience at the position. Its another head scratcher on Dusty's part. What i do know is the reason Richar got the call up is because his options have already been started from his White Sox days and he does have some MLB experience. They didnt want to send someone up and start there options when they knew they would be sending them down within a few weeks. But with the injury to Agon someone will be up until he gets back. My guess is when EE comes back Sutton will remain with the club while Richar gets sent down. Unless Sutton doesn't prove he belongs here, which I don't think will happen. Once Gonzo gets back Sutton will be sent down.

Plus Plus
07-02-2009, 01:21 PM
I dont expect to see Gonzo in a Reds' uniform ever again.

Jones1
07-02-2009, 01:22 PM
Richar starting is puzzling to me as well. He has played 6 games at 3b in his career before this year, if I remember right, and that adds together minor league and major league stats. I don't get why he would be starting at the hot corner ever.

And the reason he is not being asked such hard questions is probably due to the fact that there just aren't enough journalism jobs out there. Anyone who asked the questions you did would probably be fired and cause Dusty to not do interviews any more. I guess they decided that the little vanilla info that we get from Dusty on a daily basis is better than the alternative.

You are correct McCalister mentioned this the other day and i checked it out on his stats on baseballreference.com. It seems that Dusty just hates Paul Janish..

Jones1
07-02-2009, 01:24 PM
I dont expect to see Gonzo in a Reds' uniform ever again.

He'll be back his injury is minor.

Plus Plus
07-02-2009, 05:31 PM
Surgery to remove bone spurs on his elbow is minor?

I dont believe he is doing any baseball activity right now at all.

kentjett
07-02-2009, 05:38 PM
Hernandez is a solid catcher but could become a cancer if delegated to back-up duty which he should. He should be part of a trade that helps bring in another solid bat.

jimbo
07-02-2009, 06:13 PM
Hernandez is a solid catcher but could become a cancer if delegated to back-up duty which he should. He should be part of a trade that helps bring in another solid bat.

Solid catchers are hard to come by, why trade one away when you have two that that make an above average catching tandem? I'd put Hernandez at better than 50% of the starting catchers in the major leagues.

The pitching staff has also been pretty solid overall with Hernandez starting. They like pitching to him and the results prove that.

Can't understand the hate, or the premature love for Hanigan after only a few months into his major league career. I really like him, but he is far from proven.

Although this is Reds country, so I guess I can understand.

Captain Hook
07-02-2009, 06:26 PM
I dont expect to see Gonzo in a Reds' uniform ever again.

That would be ok.:thumbup:

Mutaman
07-02-2009, 07:19 PM
I dont expect to see Gonzo in a Reds' uniform ever again.

Actually I'm pretty sure I saw Gonzalez on the bench today, in a Red's uniform.

Plus Plus
07-02-2009, 07:39 PM
Ok, ok- I don't expect to see Gonzo on the field for the Reds ever again.

Clarifying the obvious...

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 08:04 PM
Hernandez has caught only 6 shutouts this year.

Weak.

Pay attention to the title of the thread please. You may as well have been talking about the Bengals.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 08:06 PM
And the reason he is not being asked such hard questions is probably due to the fact that there just aren't enough journalism jobs out there. Anyone who asked the questions you did would probably be fired and cause Dusty to not do interviews any more.

Very, very good point. Guys can't keep their jobs with 20+ years experience. I'm sure that has changed things.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 08:10 PM
Hernandez is a solid catcher but could become a cancer if delegated to back-up duty which he should. He should be part of a trade that helps bring in another solid bat.

I would think he was only insurance at the time we picked him up because Hanigan was still an unknown. Well, with that unknown status gone, it's Hanigan that should be the starter now and a backup for him is what's needed.

Would love to see Hernandez traded for the sole purpose of promoting Hanigan to the #1 Catching job.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 08:12 PM
Solid catchers are hard to come by, why trade one away when you have two that that make an above average catching tandem? I'd put Hernandez at better than 50% of the starting catchers in the major leagues.

The pitching staff has also been pretty solid overall with Hernandez starting. They like pitching to him and the results prove that.

Can't understand the hate, or the premature love for Hanigan after only a few months into his major league career. I really like him, but he is far from proven.

Although this is Reds country, so I guess I can understand.

It's been more than a few months. It's now been almost a whole season. Couple that with his huge number of minor league appearances and you're not talking about your average rookie. This isn't some 22-23 year old rookie. Hanigan has a lot of experience and his results have only proved that to be true.

kfm
07-02-2009, 08:53 PM
Just why is Richar starting? When you consider offense and defense, he's the worst option among Sutton, Janish and him. Richar is a mediocre minor league player at 26, and was having another mediocre season in Louisville. He doesn't belong on an MLB bench, let alone to start. Injuries are obviously the reason he's in Cincinnati, but why start him?

I take it you are not a Drew Stubbs fan since Richar's OPS is higher than Stubbs.

kfm
07-02-2009, 09:09 PM
Hernandez has caught only 6 shutouts this year.

Weak.

Excellent point because instead of trying to cherry pick a handful of games to prove some point, you are looking at the entire season. I thought that was the way we judged players, their performance over the course of an entire season.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 09:18 PM
Excellent point because instead of trying to cherry pick a handful of games to prove some point, you are looking at the entire season. I thought that was the way we judged players, their performance over the course of an entire season.

No one's trying to cherry pick a handful of games to try to prove a point.

Please read at the very least the first post of the thread before commenting.

kfm
07-02-2009, 09:24 PM
I'm only talking about recently, not what the team's ERA was when each guy caught before the Toronto series.

Just since Votto's been back. Our pitching has stunk with Hernandez behind the plate.

I just don't understand Baker's stubbornness to sit Hanigan.

Talk about ruining a guy. Hanigan has been consistent all season, and Baker's trying his best to turn to ruin this guy's season.

This is the post that proves you are not cherry picking stats. Perhaps you should read it again. It is actually a very good example for explaining what cherry picking is to people.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 10:06 PM
This is the post that proves you are not cherry picking stats. Perhaps you should read it again.

Yes.

That is the post that clearly explains that I'm not trying to cherry pick stats to prove a point.

The post clearly states that I'm only talking about since Votto came back. Where is it that it says I think that when Hernandez catches he's worse than Hanigan over the season? You're just looking for an argument, and I don't appreciate it.

Don't repsond to the thread if you don't like the topic. The topic is, "Why has the pitching been so bad since Hernandez returned to being behind the plate once Votto returned?"

Hanigan's two starts behind the plate since Votto returned have resulted in great pitching performances.

The season is a series of trends, where hitting and pitching fluctuate constantly, especially pitching. It doesn't take much to change the momentum of a pitching staff, and changing catchers certainly can be a big part of that.

I know if I was pitching, I wouldn't want a batter that was hitting .330 removed for a guy who was hitting .200 (for at least the last 4+ weeks). I also wouldn't want a guy removed who was throwing out 50% of the base-stealing attempts for a guy who is only throwing out 25% of them.

kfm
07-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Yes.

That is the post that clearly explains that I'm not trying to cherry pick stats to prove a point.

The post clearly states that I'm only talking about since Votto came back. Where is it that it says I think that when Hernandez catches he's worse than Hanigan over the season? You're just looking for an argument, and I don't appreciate it.

Don't repsond to the thread if you don't like the topic. The topic is, "Why has the pitching been so bad since Hernandez returned to being behind the plate once Votto returned?"

Hanigan's two starts behind the plate since Votto returned have resulted in great pitching performances.

The season is a series of trends, where hitting and pitching fluctuate constantly, especially pitching. It doesn't take much to change the momentum of a pitching staff, and changing catchers certainly can be a big part of that.

I know if I was pitching, I wouldn't want a batter that was hitting .330 removed for a guy who was hitting .200 (for at least the last 4+ weeks). I also wouldn't want a guy removed who was throwing out 50% of the base-stealing attempts for a guy who is only throwing out 25% of them.

It proves that point to you. And your topic was not stated as a question, as it is in the above post, it is stated as a fact and more proof for what we all know you want. You are basically saying ignore the entire season and look at what has happened over the course of the last few games. This is even more proof that my favorite 29 year old rookie should be starting. I am not trying to start an argument, I just happen to disagree with you and yes I believe you are cherry picking in order to argue once again that Hanigan should be starting. If you don't like people commenting on your post, then don't post. Do we all have to think like you or else we are just trying to start an argument. This is a discussion board??? Not much to discuss if everyone agrees and I sincerely disagree with you on this point.

NorrisHopper30
07-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Pay attention to the title of the thread please. You may as well have been talking about the Bengals.

Well recently he's caught 1 shutout to Hanigan's 0.

Kingspoint
07-02-2009, 10:20 PM
Well recently he's caught 1 shutout to Hanigan's 0.

And 4 horrible games to Hanigans none.

kfm
07-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Are we completely dismissing the pitchers in this thread? Seems like the pitcher has more to do with his performance than the guy who is catching his pitches. This team pitched so well for so long they are due to have some bad games, but blaming or crediting the catchers for this seems a tad odd.

Stormy Weathers
07-03-2009, 01:23 AM
Hanigan gets on base too much. And Dusty can't be bothered with all those decisions like do I sacrifice, do I hit and run. And, most importantly, when is Taveras getting up again?

too bad when a runner is in scoring position hanigan forgets what hitting is like.

Kingspoint
07-03-2009, 07:05 PM
Are we completely dismissing the pitchers in this thread? Seems like the pitcher has more to do with his performance than the guy who is catching his pitches. This team pitched so well for so long they are due to have some bad games, but blaming or crediting the catchers for this seems a tad odd.

It's not a blaming or anything, it's just noticing that the worse pitching of the season for any length of time has just occurred while Hernandez returned to full-time catching.

Kingspoint
07-07-2009, 08:44 PM
There's definitely something wrong with Hernandez behind the plate since Votto came back. He can't get any pitchers to perform well. From all of the starters to all of the relievers, with maybe an exception or two.

Hanigan's not having this problem when he has started since Votto came back.

Boston Red
07-07-2009, 10:14 PM
I, for one, blame Hanigan for Janish's poor performance on the hill yesterday.

gilpdawg
07-07-2009, 10:51 PM
Ya know, according to BP, the catchers don't really matter to a pitcher's performance over the long haul. Basically, our pitching has sucked over the last week. Due to the pitchers sucking. Not the catcher.

GIDP
07-07-2009, 10:56 PM
Ya know, according to BP, the catchers don't really matter to a pitcher's performance over the long haul. Basically, our pitching has sucked over the last week. Due to the pitchers sucking. Not the catcher.
Yea i agree for the most part. The best catcher isnt going to make a bad pitcher be an all star, but I could see it shaving a couple points off a ERA over the course of a season.

kfm
07-08-2009, 12:17 AM
Yea i agree for the most part. The best catcher isnt going to make a bad pitcher be an all star, but I could see it shaving a couple points off a ERA over the course of a season.

You do mean tenths of a point, correct?

GIDP
07-08-2009, 12:19 AM
You do mean tenths of a point, correct?

as opposed to what?

kfm
07-08-2009, 12:26 AM
as opposed to what?

As opposed to a full point. I am assuming you mean that a good catcher might take a guy from a 3.5 to a 3.3. You don't mean a full point like a 3.5 to a 2.5.

GIDP
07-08-2009, 12:33 AM
As opposed to a full point. I am assuming you mean that a good catcher might take a guy from a 3.5 to a 3.3. You don't mean a full point like a 3.5 to a 2.5.

Yea I guess I just considered tenths always as points when it came to averages.

kfm
07-08-2009, 12:40 AM
Yea I guess I just considered tenths always as points when it came to averages.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I usually do with BA but not with ERA. Just clarifying.

Slyder
07-08-2009, 02:00 AM
Yea i agree for the most part. The best catcher isnt going to make a bad pitcher be an all star, but I could see it shaving a couple points off a ERA over the course of a season.

Ask Carlos Zambrano about whether whos catching matters. ;)

Its part of the job. Guiding the pitchers. Theres a reason why so many former catchers become successful managers.

defender
07-08-2009, 02:09 AM
Nice game winning hit from Hernandez tonight.

Kingspoint
07-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Ya know, according to BP, the catchers don't really matter to a pitcher's performance over the long haul. Basically, our pitching has sucked over the last week. Due to the pitchers sucking. Not the catcher.

I couldn't disagree more with BP about that.

It's not a coincidence that more Catchers become Managers than any other position. It's a position that requires more intelligence and better relationship skills.

Kingspoint
07-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Ask Carlos Zambrano about whether whos catching matters.



You can add many a Hall-of-Fame pitcher to that list.

BEETTLEBUG
07-09-2009, 12:58 AM
Can't Dusty see this and get Hanigan in there more ? Look over the money Dusty

Kingspoint
07-10-2009, 10:58 PM
Hanigan catches.

Bronson Arroyo throws a shutout.

Yes, that Bronson Arroyo.

TheAnswer
07-10-2009, 11:05 PM
Do you guys really think that Bronson throwing a shut out had more to do with Hanigan catching or the lineup the mets put out there? That line up could be shut down by a decent high school pitcher.

bleedsred
07-11-2009, 12:50 AM
Hanigan also caught Bronson for the Cards game and the game when the Royals hammered him...

Kingspoint
07-11-2009, 10:24 PM
Do you guys really think that Bronson throwing a shut out had more to do with Hanigan catching or the lineup the mets put out there? That line up could be shut down by a decent high school pitcher.

How's the pitching doing tonight...same team, different catcher, but supposedly our best pitcher?

Kingspoint
07-12-2009, 07:00 PM
The evidence just keeps piling up.

Since Votto came back June 23rd and Hernandez went back to full-time catching, here are the results:

In 10 more starts, Hernandez has 9 more losses.

When Hernandez starts:

REDS record: 5W-10L
Average runs given up when Hernandez catches: 5.93 per game
Less the one bad game against the Phils of 16 runs: 5.21 per game

When Hanigan starts:

REDS record 4W-1L
Average runs given up when Hanigan catches: 3.00 per game
Less the one bad game that Arroyo imploded of 10 runs: 1.25 per game

You can ignore it all you want, but the entire pitching staff does not work well with Hernandez since he took over full-time duties again, and Hanigan does exceptionally. He even got Arroyo's 2nd career shutout.

But, Dusty makes these decisions, and Dusty, like last season, is perfectly OK to go down with a sinking ship. He still gets paid the same. I can't stand Dusty Baker. Have always disliked the guy personally and how he manages a team.