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Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 10:06 PM
All of this after 2 outs and nobody on. When was the last time the Reds mounted a rally like this?

And if the Astros win tonight, Reds and Astros are tied for 4th place.

Lame.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:06 PM
What a load. Fisher gave up a bad hop double to a guy they shouldn't have pitched to. Yeah its all his fault.

You either retire him or you don't. Excuses are garbage.

mbgrayson
07-03-2009, 10:07 PM
Why didn't Cordeo start the 9th?

It wasn't a save situation, dude....

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:07 PM
All of this after 2 outs and nobody on. When was the last time the Reds mounted a rally like this?

And if the Astros win tonight, Reds and Astros are tied for 4th place.

Lame.

Astros always get badmouthed, but they always finish ahead of the Reds. Don't think I'll ever get that.

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:08 PM
It wasn't a save situation, dude....
I know this is sarcasm, but at that point it was literally impossible for it to be a save situation.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 10:08 PM
Reds really needed to win tonight to avoid the sweep, IMO.

Micah Owings tomorrow and then Arroyo vs. Carpenter on Sunday (queue the laugh track here)

Mario-Rijo
07-03-2009, 10:09 PM
Carlos Fisher, yet another whiz from this organization's farm system.

Where were you when the Reds, the team you claim to like were playing well? Now that the Cards break out it's FCB every other post. Why do you aggravate the aggravated?

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:09 PM
Here's the best bullpen pitcher in baseball Ryan Franklin to rub it in a bit more.

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:10 PM
The success of the pen is dependent on manager that knows how to use it.

Agreed


Cordero should have pitched in the 8th to Pujols with the bases juiced.

Why? David has been like money in the bank this year (and this is coming from someone who LOATHES Weathers). Rhodes has been lights out this year too. It's only a bad move because it failed. The decision was fine...you guys are just pissed off and want to point fingers.


Herrera should have been lifted in the 9th for Fisher after the Janish error.

Fail x 2.

Again, WHY? Danny had 2 down and got a ball that should've ended the inning. It's not like Herrera was at fault that the inning wasn't over. Also, I'm sure Dusty didn't want to yank him early due to the fact that he was already forced to burn Rhodes on one batter and Masset went after one too. Sorry, gotta disagree 100%.

CTA513
07-03-2009, 10:10 PM
You either retire him or you don't. Excuses are garbage.

He was trying to copy Weathers except Fisher was able to keep him in the park.

:D

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:10 PM
Here's the best bullpen pitcher in baseball Ryan Franklin to rub it in a bit more.
Just becasue his stats say it for now, doesn't make it so.

And Laynce Nix is really bad. He's still riding his hot streak from like May. Dude can't hit or layoff a breaking ball to save his life.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:10 PM
Ryan Franklin's curveball is the nastiest pitch in the majors. Good baby jesus.

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Ryan Franklin's curveball is the nastiest pitch in the majors. Good baby jesus.
Omg, hyperbole much?

CTA513
07-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Ryan Franklin's curveball is the nastiest pitch in the majors. Good baby jesus.

I doubt it.

LincolnparkRed
07-03-2009, 10:12 PM
small miracle, Nix saw 4 pitches before he struck out unlike, yesterday when he went down on 3 twice

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:12 PM
Yeah, EE can hit.

Get another guy on.

VR
07-03-2009, 10:12 PM
EE at 3rd tomorrow JHJ at short please.


EE proves his worth by punking Mariano Rivera Franklin

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:15 PM
Franklin's stuff is just filthy. How on earth did the Reds not tap his potential?
:confused:

I really have no idea.:eek:

VR
07-03-2009, 10:15 PM
Wily...we don't need a homer from you

CTA513
07-03-2009, 10:16 PM
Franklin's stuff is just filthy. How on earth did the Reds not tap his potential?
:confused:

I really have no idea.:eek:

He didn't want to be a bullpen pitcher before the Cardinals talked him into doing it.

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
I think Marty's about to pass out. Willy just drew a walk. First since May 21st. Mercy!

VR
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
The best pitcher in baseball walks the worst hitter in baseball.

Degenerate39
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
How did Bailey look today?

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
The best pitcher in baseball walks the worst hitter in baseball.

The reason the pitching gave up 7 runs is Taveras, you know that right?

CTA513
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
The best pitcher in baseball walks the worst hitter in baseball.

:eek:

Bob Borkowski
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
Wily...we don't need a homer from you

Wily walks for the first time since May 23! :eek:

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 10:18 PM
The best pitcher in baseball walks the worst hitter in baseball.
lol Is hell freezing over?

VR
07-03-2009, 10:19 PM
How did Bailey look today?

Just spectacular.:beerme:

TRF
07-03-2009, 10:19 PM
The reason the pitching gave up 7 runs is Taveras, you know that right?

well it wasn't Homer Bailey that was the problem, was it.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-03-2009, 10:19 PM
Why? David has been like money in the bank this year (and this is coming from someone who LOATHES Weathers). Rhodes has been lights out this year too. It's only a bad move because it failed. The decision was fine...you guys are just pissed off and want to point fingers.

Because it was the single most important point late in the game and Cordero is your best pitcher. I don't care about Rhodes. Never brought him up, did I? Once AP stepped up with the bases juiced, he should have been put in.

And please don't tell me what my motive is behind a post, okay?




Again, WHY? Danny had 2 down and got a ball that should've ended the inning. It's not like Herrera was at fault that the inning wasn't over. Also, I'm sure Dusty didn't want to yank him early due to the fact that he was already forced to burn Rhodes on one batter and Masset went after one too. Sorry, gotta disagree 100%.

What does Danny deserving to be out of the inning have to do with it? I'm not punishing him by bringing in Fisher. I'd simply rather have the RHP that throws in the 90's to face a rookie RH hitter and not the soft-tossing Herrera.

And I disagree with you also 100%. Not the first and it won't be the last.

VR
07-03-2009, 10:19 PM
3B ump has skyline on his mind

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:20 PM
How did Bailey look today?

Freaking fantastic. Unfortunately, the bullpen picked tonight to have their worst game of the season...and the defense late in the game didn't help either.

7 innings, 3 hits, 2 walks, 5 k's on just over 100 pitches. Really desevered the win. His 2 earned runs came via the grand salami that Weathers served up to Pujols on a silver platter.

Degenerate39
07-03-2009, 10:20 PM
well it wasn't Homer Bailey that was the problem, was it.

But I heard the whole Reds pitching staff was the problem!

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 10:21 PM
But I heard the whole Reds pitching staff was the problem!
It seems like that sometimes around here.

VR
07-03-2009, 10:23 PM
Cmon BP. Dinger to right center please.

mbgrayson
07-03-2009, 10:25 PM
Well, at least we made Franklin throw a lot of pitches tonight(30).

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Phillips had no chance.

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Could Phillip shave swung any harder at that ball?

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Not the way to start this series.

CarolinaRedleg
07-03-2009, 10:26 PM
That was a classic Stomach Punch game.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:27 PM
That was a classic Stomach Punch game.

Avatar = Reds.

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:27 PM
Because it was the single most important point late in the game and Cordero is your best pitcher. I don't care about Rhodes. Never brought him up, did I? Once AP stepped up with the bases juiced, he should have been put in.

That's a valid point, but I've yet to see Cordero be successful in a non-ninth inning situation. Why, I have no idea.


And please don't tell me what my motive is behind a post, okay?

You're right. I appologize. It was more directed at the whole vibe of the board not you specifically...but I still shouldn't have said it. My bad.


What does Danny deserving to be out of the inning have to do with it? I'm not punishing him by bringing in Fisher. I'd simply rather have the RHP that throws in the 90's to face a rookie RH hitter and not the soft-tossing Herrera.

And I disagree with you also 100%. Not the first and it won't be the last.

Hererra doesn't really have bad splits either way, so I was fine with him leaving him in there. Hererra has done extremely well this year regardless of how hard he throws, so the pitchers' velocity really isn't a big concern for me. Location, movement & changing of speeds is much more important IMO than raw speed. But I would've had no problem with Fisher either, but we're talking about rookies here on both ends so it's pretty much a crap-shoot either way.

And as I type this...game over. Tough loss guys. We'll get 'em next time.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 10:28 PM
Pitiful.

And a lousy way to start the July 4th holiday weekend. Reds really know how to treat their fans!

nate
07-03-2009, 10:29 PM
Avatar = Reds.

I really don't understand why you even come here. Just to bait people?

It's lame.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:30 PM
And as I type this...game over. Tough loss guys. We'll get 'em next time.

I had the series down as a loss tonight and Sunday. Let's see if they can salvage one tomorrow. Though Thompson has been the kind of pitcher the Reds had hoped for with Maloney--a perfect stand-in till a starter returns.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:31 PM
I really don't understand why you even come here. Just to bait people?

It's lame.

You don't think they choked tonight? How are my posts any different from anyone else's angered ravings? Seriously? Why the hell do people target my posts every. single. time?

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:32 PM
You don't think they choked tonight? How are my posts any different from anyone else's angered ravings? Seriously? Why the hell do people target my posts every. single. time?
Look at what you post/

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:34 PM
Look at what you post/

Read through this thread. How are my comments any different from anyone else's constant slamming of Dusty, tired garbage over and over?

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:34 PM
To try to look at the positives from tonight.....

Homer Bailey looked EXTREMELY good tonight. 7 innings of 3 hit ball. 5 k's to only 2 walks.

Edwin made his return to the club with a stinging double off the wall.

Hairston went 3 for 4 with a double.

Taveras went 2 for 4 and broke his string of games without a walk.

Reds bats clubbed 5 doubles, and 11 hits total.

It ain't all bad guys.


IMO this loss is laid directly at Dusty's feet for his strategy with Albert...or lack of a strategy.

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:35 PM
Read through this thread. How are my comments any different from anyone else's constant slamming of Dusty, tired garbage over and over?
You called Ryan Franklin the best pitcher in the game and said he had the best pitch in the game. When you're team is getting beat, you don't like hearing how awesome the other team is. It's common sense. Know your audience.

Degenerate39
07-03-2009, 10:37 PM
You called Ryan Franklin the best pitcher in the game and said he had the best pitch in the game. When you're team is getting beat, you don't like hearing how awesome the other team is. It's common sense. Know your audience.

But the Cards won

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Look at what you post/

FCB has been more upbeat and positive about this clubs hitters than just about anybody on the board this season. While most people think the pitchers are the teams' best aspect...he's been critical of the staff. I disagree with him about the staff, but I do agree with him about the fact that he gets ragged on more than just about anybody here. He's like Redszone's version of Taveras.

It seems like anytime someone swims against the current here, they get blasted for it. Unfairly so IMO.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:39 PM
You called Ryan Franklin the best pitcher in the game and said he had the best pitch in the game. When you're team is getting beat, you don't like hearing how awesome the other team is. It's common sense. Know your audience.

Typical idiot Reds to dump Franklin. Over and over and over with the idiocy.

westofyou
07-03-2009, 10:40 PM
Cards win the game, Reds win a big one with a positive Bailey game.

RBA
07-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Reds choked again. This was a team effort. Don't just blame it on the manager.

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 10:43 PM
The loss stinks but I'm just really glad that Bailey had a good outing. Hopefully he's starting to establish himself as a permanent part of the rotation.

nate
07-03-2009, 10:43 PM
You don't think they choked tonight? How are my posts any different from anyone else's angered ravings? Seriously? Why the hell do people target my posts every. single. time?

Seriously?

Because it seems like you only show up to bait people. I mean, I didn't hear a peep out of you until the game started going downhill. Everyone of your comments seemed like a jab at someone.

Seriously.

CTA513
07-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Typical idiot Reds to dump Franklin. Over and over and over with the idiocy.

The idiot Franklin wanted to be a starter.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:45 PM
Seriously?

Because it seems like you only show up to bait people. I mean, I didn't hear a peep out of you until the game started going downhill. Everyone of your comments seemed like a jab at someone.

Seriously.

I wasn't home till the 7th inning. Yeah, I get furiously sarcastic with the Reds; what's the point otherwise?

westofyou
07-03-2009, 10:45 PM
Typical idiot Reds to dump Franklin. Over and over and over with the idiocy.

Flyer loved him

traderumor
07-03-2009, 10:45 PM
Typical idiot Reds to dump Franklin. Over and over and over with the idiocy.Franklin wasn't very good with the Reds nor with anyone else prior to the Cards. I hated watching him nibble his way into jams. Chalk it up to Dave Duncan, asst. to the Super Genius.

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 10:46 PM
He's like Redszone's version of Taveras.
Ouch! Hopefully noone here can lay claim to be called that! lol

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:47 PM
Reds choked again. This was a team effort. Don't just blame it on the manager.
Not Busty's fault Janish booted the ball. Not Busty's fault Rhodes walked that one guy.

traderumor
07-03-2009, 10:47 PM
I was watching a little league game and only caught the ninth inning. I think the baseball gods were paying us back for winning yesterday in just a little over 24 hours. The worse part is getting beat late by the arrogant Pujols.

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:48 PM
Owings need to drill Pujols in the dome tomorrow.

traderumor
07-03-2009, 10:49 PM
FCB directs his hard hitting shots at the Reds. He is getting personal attacks in response.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 10:49 PM
Owings need to drill Pujols in the dome tomorrow.

Well, he can't seem to find the strike zone for long stretches. I don't think anyone would find it intentional in that regard.

CrackerJack
07-03-2009, 10:52 PM
Bailey can't put two on with no out in the 7th either....(more walks)

reds44
07-03-2009, 10:53 PM
They walked two guys in front of Pujols, you can never do that.

oneupper
07-03-2009, 10:54 PM
This game was painful, gut-wrenching perhaps, but definitely NOT boring.

membengal
07-03-2009, 10:55 PM
Bailey can't put two on with no out in the 7th either....(more walks)

He was tired. I really can't in fairness lay any of that at his feet. I would have preferred he not come out for the 8th and let the bullpen start fresh rather than come in to what they came into.

Bailey was nails tonight. Between 74 and 97 on the stadium gun. Just filth. That's the huge long-term news. Woy is right, the rest is just sad noise. If this team can harvest that kid's stuff, they'll be set up rather fine in the rotation for the foreseeable future.

The loss hurt. It hurt to be there. But they went down fighting, and perhaps Dusty will realize that EE should be playing now. For all the stuff JHJ takes about his D at SS, I bet he fields that ball and gets the out in the 9th. EE at 3b, and JHJ at SS, and let's get on with it.

nate
07-03-2009, 10:57 PM
I wasn't home till the 7th inning. Yeah, I get furiously sarcastic with the Reds; what's the point otherwise?

I see baiting rather than sarcasm.

traderumor
07-03-2009, 11:00 PM
I see baiting rather than sarcasm.There is a "report post to moderator" button if you think a post is out of line.

redsfandan
07-03-2009, 11:01 PM
Bailey was nails tonight. Between 74 and 97 on the stadium gun. Just filth. That's the huge long-term news. Woy is right, the rest is just sad noise. If this team can harvest that kid's stuff, they'll be set up rather fine in the rotation for the foreseeable future.

That's why I'll be looking forward to seeing how Arroyo does Sunday and the status of Volquez since, Imo, those are the biggest question marks in the rotation right now. If those two get things together then it will make things interesting.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 11:02 PM
I see baiting rather than sarcasm.

About the only thing I could see being construed as baiting is the Taveras sarcasm post. But since no one's getting dinged for starting 40 threads on Taveras on ORG, I figured it was fair game.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 11:05 PM
I think the Reds need to slide into first base tomorrow, cleats up.

kaldaniels
07-03-2009, 11:07 PM
I see baiting rather than sarcasm.

Nate, with all due respect (you are a great poster), a couple hours back you advanced the idea of trading Jay Bruce for Yunel Escobar (:confused:) but in the same post said "well its not like I would make that deal". You could have easily been accused of baiting or starting a Bruce argument. I do believe some posts are meant to get a rise out of the folks in here, others are perfectly innocent. No one can know for sure if a post's motives are legit, so if you assume it is baiting, just ignore and move on. Or bring a constructive rebuttal to the discussion.

That said, I'm already looking forward to tommorrow's game.

westofyou
07-03-2009, 11:08 PM
I think the Reds need to slide into first base tomorrow, cleats up.

Rally Ground Hog Time

http://www.theliberaloc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ground-hog-day.jpg

LoganBuck
07-03-2009, 11:24 PM
I will ignore the mess at the end of the game because I was watching fireworks when it happened. Homer was great tonight. The rest is just noise. Homer was what we all have wanted him to be. If he can be some resemblance of that for the rest of the season, things are definitely looking up.

Male chest bump of greatness for Homer!!!!!

traderumor
07-03-2009, 11:25 PM
So, fill me in on Bailey's start innings 1 through 7. Was he clearly using the splitter? I think he did not walk but 2 if I heard right.

membengal
07-03-2009, 11:35 PM
I was at the game, so I couldn't see movement, you will have to get that from the folks that watched on TV. He was pounding the strike zone all night, a high percentage of strikes, and the fastball had uber-life to it. Just ridiculously hard. It appeared he was throwing the splitter on occasion as you would want him to, for an out pitch. Just phenomenal stuff from him. You can see why they have been waiting for him, and why the fanbase needs to be patient. He will have bad games and then stuff like tonite. He's just 23. I have not seen this kind of power from a Reds farmhand starting pitcher in my lifetime. The hard throwing glory of Wayne Simpson/Gary Nolan/Don Gullett were before my time. I barely remember the post arm-issues Nolan and Gullett. In terms of a starting pitcher with that much pure gas drafted and developed by the Reds solely, he is singular in my rooting experience. If he can continue to pound the strike zone with his fastball (it was between 92 and 97 on the stadium gun all night) while mixing in that splitter and what looked like a nasty curve ball (again, I couldn't see break from where I was in the stadium but he was between 74 and 79 on the stadium gun when he threw it), he is special. Hope that helps.

kaldaniels
07-03-2009, 11:36 PM
So, fill me in on Bailey's start innings 1 through 7. Was he clearly using the splitter? I think he did not walk but 2 if I heard right.

Until the single and walk to begin the 8th, I had it as the best (or most dominating perhaps) start by a Reds starter this season...those who watched, am I going too far with that remark?

WVRedsFan
07-04-2009, 12:01 AM
Until the single and walk to begin the 8th, I had it as the best (or most dominating perhaps) start by a Reds starter this season...those who watched, am I going too far with that remark?

Maybe just a little. Homer was good, but I think Cueto and Harang have had better starts, but everyone wants Homer to live up to his potential, and he did tonight.

This was a devastating loss and as I reviewed the game thread (which I left early on), it's disturbing that when a realist like FCB points out inadequacies, it's baiting. Gang, the Reds are like they are because they haven't made good decisions. The Cardinals always seem to make the good decision. The result? They win. They're better. It hurts to say so, but saying that without Pujols they are nothing means nothing because they have Pujols. To say Ryan Franklin was horrible is OK, but he's been pretty good with the Cardinals and the Reds gave up on him. Just the way it is. To keep saying that Taveras is the reason for the Reds losing ignores the rest of the lineup which minus Joey Votto is a last place team.

The Reds have to win one of these games, and it looks might discouraging right now. Owings will probably get eaten alive by the Cardinals and is DeRosa comes back, just stay home and cook on the grill. It won't be pleasant. If Arroyo pitches like he has lately, and against Carpenter, well, maybe another trip to Aunt Gracie's is in order.

They should have won this game, but key mistakes cost them that victory. And that has been the case for nearly 20 years. Our staff walks too many and our fielding at certain positions is still suspect. We have a lot of hackers disguised as hitters. We have a high ticket closer on a .500 club, robbing us from signing a free agent bat we need. All mistakes.

Gotta love the Reds, though. They keep making the same mistakes over and over. Then they wonder why no one comes to the games.

BTW, a tip of the hat to the Cardinal fans who probably help with that sellout. Win and they will come.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 12:08 AM
I was telling my 7 year old on the way to his game tonight that if Homer gets it together, it could get very interesting in the second half. A rare blow up by this year's bullpen aside, I still think that is true. And something to keep in mind is that, while many of us as fans see things like this as "same old same old," the players don't have a perpetual history of following the franchise like we do, so a lot of our context for being upset over losing a game like tonight means nothing to them.

GOYA
07-04-2009, 02:55 AM
I hate losses. But this was the best loss we've had all season. Bailey came to the top. The bullpen ate it on some bad hops and uncharacteristically weak pitching. Any other night, Janish makes that play.

lollipopcurve
07-04-2009, 07:43 AM
Tough loss. Pretty soon here, they're going to have to gas up the back of the bullpen. That said, you have to remember that Pujols almost popped out a pitch before he homered.

But I'll trade the loss for the performance by Bailey. I think it's safe to say at this point that he has what it takes to be successful in the majors. He'll have bad outings, as most any 23-year-old will, but over time he'll get more consistent. Another youing fixture in the rotation bodes very well for how this team can be built.

GAC
07-04-2009, 08:03 AM
Cards win the game, Reds win a big one with a positive Bailey game.

Yes. I was done at my brother's, and we were listening to the game on his back deck while grilling some BBQ wings. With the bases loaded, Albert at the plate, and facing Weathers, I told my brother that Pujols is the only guy right now that I'd walk with bases loaded (and a 3-0 lead, 1 out). No it may not be sound philosophy, but this guy salivates for situations like this, and he's going to hurt us BIG TIME here.

My bro said I worried too much. Then the earth stopped in it's axis. ;)

A real sound outing for Bailey, which is huge, while a rare meltdown by a pretty reliable BP this year.

I'll be at today's game with the kids (and Chip).

reds1869
07-04-2009, 08:08 AM
Yes. I was done at my brother's, and we were listening to the game on his back deck while grilling some BBQ wings. With the bases loaded, Albert at the plate, and facing Weathers, I told my brother that Pujols is the only guy right now that I'd walk with bases loaded (and a 3-0 lead, 1 out). No it may not be sound philosophy, but this guy salivates for situations like this, and he's going to hurt us BIG TIME here.

My bro said I worried too much. Then the earth stopped in it's axis. ;)

A real sound outing for Bailey, which is huge, while a rare meltdown by a pretty reliable BP this year.

I'll be at today's game with the kids (and Chip).

I said the same thing. My wife came downstairs and asked what was wrong. I was screaming "walk him! walk him!" at the tv. I just knew he was going to hit the grand slam and truth be told so did all of you.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Piecing together the situation and what happened in the game, I am not getting "Dusty's an idiot" criticism I am seeing for his bullpen choices. Although Pujols is seemingly otherworldly, a Grand Slam there is not a high percentage outcome, so walking in a run really doesn't solve much except saying "I am not letting that guy beat me." No, we'll let the next guy beat us. I've seen folks pointing out Pujols career numbers against the relievers, yet I'm pretty sure those things qualify as "small sample size" and Pujols has incredible career numbers against most anybody. Also, Janish's error was a really tough play, that ball was a squibber that was spinning from what I saw on the replay. Just a comedy of tough breaks and that is Dusty's fault. Whatever.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 09:38 AM
I will temper my previous post with one thought: Cordero was the best option to face Pujols. He throws him some smoke out of the strike zone, sees if he can get him to chase a slider off the plate, but everything off the plate, with the worst thing happening is a pitch around walk. But, we know Dusty does not bring in Cordero before the 9th no matter what. That isn't how he manages, so it only qualifies as an overall disagreement rather than an in game disagreement with his managing moves. Dusty used the bullpen in that inning the same way that he has all season, and we all agree that this was an atypical night for the pen this season.

mth123
07-04-2009, 09:42 AM
Its one loss and in itself isn't so concerning. I also agree with those who say the loss that sends the team on a spin is as over-rated as the win the starts the team on a streak. I do have a few concerns about how the game played out:

1. Homer Bailey - He looked pretty good, and easily pitched well enough to hold a spot in the rotation, but did give up a few hard hit outs and maybe his line looked a little better than he actually pitched. IMO he's kind of fragile right now and the confidence he gathered as the game progressed was obvious, but did going back out there for the 8th push him too far? He had already gone seven and was starting through the line-up for the fourth time. Major League hitters will catch up to a lot of pitchers on the fourth attempt of the evening. Did the two runners he allowed prior to Pujols slam tear down some of the confidence he'd gained? We'll see next time if he is aggressive in the strike zone or nibbling on the outside.

2. The Bullpen - Before the season many were concerned that this pen was built with too many short stint relievers and not enough guys to eat innings. Are we seeing guys like Herrera (small stature), Rhodes (has been a one batter loogy the last couple years) and maybe Weathers (getting older) wear out? I think this team is going to need others to pick-up the slack in the second half while these guys have their load lightened up.

3. Nick Masset - He was removed from the game after taking a line drive off his pitching arm. If he's out, coupled with number two above, the pen could go from great to ugly real fast. This team needs to go to Fisher and Roenicke more often in key spots and we may just need Zach Stewart to provide a shot in the arm in the next month or so.

4. Laynce Nix - He struck out in his only appearance, and since going 3 for 5 on June 16th, he's 5 for 31. His OBP is below .300 and he appears to have lost his half of the platoon. If he and Gomes aren't going to be the power platoon in LF, then the search for an OF bat is still necessary. Dickerson and Taveras were effective in this game, but going forward with two CF types in the line-up won't cut it.

redsmetz
07-04-2009, 10:09 AM
I will temper my previous post with one thought: Cordero was the best option to face Pujols. He throws him some smoke out of the strike zone, sees if he can get him to chase a slider off the plate, but everything off the plate, with the worst thing happening is a pitch around walk. But, we know Dusty does not bring in Cordero before the 9th no matter what. That isn't how he manages, so it only qualifies as an overall disagreement rather than an in game disagreement with his managing moves. Dusty used the bullpen in that inning the same way that he has all season, and we all agree that this was an atypical night for the pen this season.

Loading the bases ahead of Pujols was the problem. I thought about Cordero, he was only slightly better against Pujols than Rhodes or Weathers. Pujols was batting .375 against Cordero, .400 against Rhodes and .500 against Weathers. Ouch.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Loading the bases ahead of Pujols was the problem. I thought about Cordero, he was only slightly better against Pujols than Rhodes or Weathers. Pujols was batting .375 against Cordero, .400 against Rhodes and .500 against Weathers. Ouch.I imagine he has some crazy numbers against a lot of guys. You're right about having guys on ahead of Pujols, so cudos to the Cards for setting the table for their stud. The Reds did the same thing in the ninth, but there was a base open, so they could be a lot more careful with Votto. Lost in all this is that the Cards did their job and handed their version of LeBron James the ball to change the game, and he delivered.

Of course, it is really just that the Reds are a cursed bunch of losers with an idiot for a manager who choke when there is a sellout crowd ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-04-2009, 12:10 PM
I will temper my previous post with one thought: Cordero was the best option to face Pujols. He throws him some smoke out of the strike zone, sees if he can get him to chase a slider off the plate, but everything off the plate, with the worst thing happening is a pitch around walk.

Amen to that.

GAC
07-05-2009, 10:00 AM
Although Pujols is seemingly otherworldly, a Grand Slam there is not a high percentage outcome, so walking in a run really doesn't solve much except saying "I am not letting that guy beat me." No, we'll let the next guy beat us.

I'm not going after Dusty on this situation. It's not his fault his normally reliable BP guys couldn't get the job done in this particular game.

But you're absolutely right the approach was "I'm not letting THIS GUY beat me". We were already in deep do-do for sure. My approach would simply be to attempt to lessen the damage, playing the percentages, as bad as they were, while trying to get through the heart of the order in the 8th inning while maybe still only giving up a couple runs, which would put us up 3-2, or at the worst, give up three runs, and go to the 9th tied.

The next two batters were Ludwig and Ankiel, who are both struggling in '09, and hitting in the lower ends of .200 vs RHers (Ludwing .213, and Ankiel .235). Now I acknowledge that all of their power (Hrs)(16 total) have come at the expense of facing RHers. But still - they aren't Albert Pujols.

And the main thing was getting that all important second out of the inning, which really changes things.

Look at Pujol's numbers vs Weathers in '09 vs these other two guys....


AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Pujols 19 10 3 0 3 9 2 0 .526 .571 1.158 1.729
Ludwick 8 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 .125 .222 .500 .722
Ankiel 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000 .250 .000 .250

traderumor
07-05-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm not going after Dusty on this situation. It's not his fault his normally reliable BP guys couldn't get the job done in this particular game.

But you're absolutely right the approach was "I'm not letting THIS GUY beat me". We were already in deep do-do for sure. My approach would simply be to attempt to lessen the damage, playing the percentages, as bad as they were, while trying to get through the heart of the order in the 8th inning while maybe still only giving up a couple runs, which would put us up 3-2, or at the worst, give up three runs, and go to the 9th tied.

The next two batters were Ludwig and Ankiel, who are both struggling in '09, and hitting in the lower ends of .200 vs RHers (Ludwing .213, and Ankiel .235). Now I acknowledge that all of their power (Hrs)(16 total) have come at the expense of facing RHers. But still - they aren't Albert Pujols.

And the main thing was getting that all important second out of the inning, which really changes things.

Look at Pujol's numbers vs Weathers in '09 vs these other two guys....


AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Pujols 19 10 3 0 3 9 2 0 .526 .571 1.158 1.729
Ludwick 8 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 .125 .222 .500 .722
Ankiel 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000 .250 .000 .250
As I look back on Friday and all the handwringing, the reactions were generally as if we had a 5 or 6 run lead late, when it was only 3-0.

GAC
07-06-2009, 05:04 AM
As I look back on Friday and all the handwringing, the reactions were generally as if we had a 5 or 6 run lead late, when it was only 3-0.

Not at all. A 5-6 run lead MAY have made it somewhat "easier" to pitch to Pujols. He hits a GS and you still have the lead.

How many times have we seen situations where a defense will "concede" the run at 3B to try and get an out, maybe a DP, and lessen the damage?

That is all I am suggesting.

Take the bat out of the hands of the most dangerous hitter in baseball right now, and take your chances with the guy(s) behind him.