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Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:30 PM
Not saying tonight's game really "means" anything, but if a Reds fan went into a coma sometime in October of 1999 and woke up tonight and asked me what it's been like following the Reds since then.....I would simply put in the tape of tonight's game and say "here, watch this."

I've been waiting all year for one of those games that makes me want to bash my head against a wall, mildly surprised they waited until July 3rd to do it :)

LincolnparkRed
07-03-2009, 11:32 PM
I don't know that game against the Cardinals that they went from up 9-3 in the ninth to lose 10-9 might be the worst loss I have seen. this was bad no doubt but that took more then one big hit to get

Superdude
07-03-2009, 11:32 PM
yea...it sucked real bad

reds44
07-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Ever get kicked in the groin?

It feels better than this.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2009, 11:35 PM
This loss will be the beginning of a tailspin, IMO.

I feel so bad for Homer Bailey. The guy pitched the game of his life and the manager/defense/offense/bullpen blows it for him. Huge loss.

Joseph
07-03-2009, 11:35 PM
It stinks because you measure the talent on the Reds and compare it to the talent on the Cards and its not like they are better. Hell aside from Pujols I don't think there is much I'd rather have theirs than ours.

Yet the sum of their parts is greater than that of the Reds somehow.

It makes no sense.

No sense.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:35 PM
I don't know that game against the Cardinals that they went from up 9-3 in the ninth to lose 10-9 might be the worst loss I have seen. this was bad no doubt but that took more then one big hit to get

No, that one was a bit worse than this one, no doubt...and the Mother's Day Massacre, also at the hands of the Cardinals was worse than that. And the Edmonds robbery of Larue's HR (the one where George Grande wet his pants) was pretty bad and the one....ah forget it........ :)

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 11:36 PM
It stinks because you measure the talent on the Reds and compare it to the talent on the Cards and its not like they are better. Hell aside from Pujols I don't think there is much I'd rather have theirs than ours.

Yet the sum of their parts is greater than that of the Reds somehow.

It makes no sense.

No sense.


Easy: They know how to win. Reds know how to lose.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:37 PM
It stinks because you measure the talent on the Reds and compare it to the talent on the Cards and its not like they are better. Hell aside from Pujols I don't think there is much I'd rather have theirs than ours.

Yet the sum of their parts is greater than that of the Reds somehow.

It makes no sense.

No sense.

I know some people get annoyed with this "mystical" stuff, but I think the difference you see is the difference between a winning organization and a losing organization. Not really sure how to quantify it, but it's there.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 11:37 PM
The Reds pen has been lights out for three months. They cracked tonight after pretty much impeccable pitching all year. A fine defense couldn't do anything either. It was bound to happen.

reds44
07-03-2009, 11:38 PM
Easy: They know how to win. Reds know how to lose.
Only one way to change that, win.

I'll give the boys credit though. They choked the big one, but they went down fighting all the way until Phillips tried to hit the arena across the street with that last swing.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 11:39 PM
The Reds pen has been lights out for three months. They cracked tonight after pretty much impeccable pitching all year. A fine defense couldn't do anything either. It was bound to happen.

But even with the bad relief pitching, tonight could/should have still been a W in the 10th if only for some better defense. Have to think that last inning would have been played different if Reds just needed 1 run and not 4

Phhhl
07-03-2009, 11:40 PM
Tough loss, but by no means a killer. It's not like Tyler Greene hit that slam. The pen is good, but I don't care what the numbers say they are not the best in the league. I am glad to see Edwin back. This makes tomorrow pretty big.

westofyou
07-03-2009, 11:41 PM
Big loss for the Reds, huge win for the Reds with a Bailey game like that.

Brutus
07-03-2009, 11:42 PM
This loss will be the beginning of a tailspin, IMO.


You are far from the only one that feels/has felt this way, but this might be the fourth, fifth or sixth time you've echoed that sentiment this year. Very rarely does one gut-wrenching loss truly cause a tailspin. Certainly if one could, this is the kind that would qualify. That said... if this were against any of the other 28 teams in Major League Baseball that did not have a super human playing first base for them, the Reds win this game.

Instead of everyone pointing fingers and placing blame, let's just give credit to the other guy. Albert Pujols is simply not a normal baseball player. He does things that defy logic, and thereby, you can't treat managerial decisions like any other player. Quite honestly, there was no right thing to do with him at the plate. Anyone that pitches to him is subject to what we witnessed. Intentionally walking him is actually my preference for him in that situation, but I will never fault any manager that does not want to purposely allow a run to score.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:43 PM
This game "had it all"

--Good performances squandered
--Failure to excel in areas where we've excelled all year
--Lack of timely hits
--Questionable managerial decisions
--Bad luck (Masset's injury; some bloops against Hererra)
--A last late glimmer of hope dashed to end the game

Some years we're so bad that these games don't really present themselves. Other years, we look like we might contend and then one of these games comes along to help us understand why we can't.

reds44
07-03-2009, 11:44 PM
1 of 162. I just keep telling myself that.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:45 PM
Big loss for the Reds, huge win for the Reds with a Bailey game like that.

I totally agree that his performance tonight should not be overshadowed by the loss. He was excellent and for where he is in his career, this was a much needed and highly encouraging outing.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2009, 11:47 PM
This would have bene the perfect win.

-Sellout crowd
-Homer Bailey throws a GEM
-The Reds move into a tie for first place in the loss column and a game back in the standings.

They wasted it. It will take a month or two before I get over this loss. This loss is worse than blowing a 5-0 lead against the Sox, or the extra inning loss against the Cubs.

I need a little break. I'm taking about a two week break from watching the games.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:48 PM
Tough loss, but by no means a killer. It's not like Tyler Greene hit that slam. The pen is good, but I don't care what the numbers say they are not the best in the league. I am glad to see Edwin back. This makes tomorrow pretty big.

I do think that winning the next two sort of nullifies the sting of this loss. If you win 2 out of 3, you can be happy, period. But what I always wonder is if a loss like tonight DECREASES our chances of winning the next two when you consider momentum, confidence, etc. I don't have the answer to that question, but I've always thought that it stands to reason that certain wins or losses actually wind up meaning more than just that one game.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2009, 11:50 PM
I do think that winning the next two sort of nullifies the sting of this loss. If you win 2 out of 3, you can be happy, period. But what I always wonder is if a loss like tonight DECREASES our chances of winning the next two when you consider momentum, confidence, etc. I don't have the answer to that question, but I've always thought that it stands to reason that certain wins or losses actually wind up meaning more than just that one game.

How in the world can the Reds win the next two? Bronson Arroyo pitches on Sunday. I'd be impressed if it's not 5-0 after the first inning.

Edskin
07-03-2009, 11:50 PM
I need a little break. I'm taking about a two week break from watching the games.

You'll believe that until about 5 minutes before the first pitch tomorrow...and then you will convince yourself to watch JUST ONE more game.....

Falls City Beer
07-03-2009, 11:51 PM
How in the world can the Reds win the next two? Bronson Arroyo pitches on Sunday. I'd be impressed if it's not 5-0 after the first inning.

Carpenter vs. Arroyo is a guaranteed loss. It's possible for the Reds to win tomorrow.

kaldaniels
07-04-2009, 12:01 AM
This would have bene the perfect win.

-Sellout crowd
-Homer Bailey throws a GEM
-The Reds move into a tie for first place in the loss column and a game back in the standings.

They wasted it. It will take a month or two before I get over this loss. This loss is worse than blowing a 5-0 lead against the Sox, or the extra inning loss against the Cubs.

I need a little break. I'm taking about a two week break from watching the games.

I call shenanigans on your 2 week hiatus. Get some rest and enjoy the game tommorrow.

alloverjr
07-04-2009, 12:11 AM
Carpenter vs. Arroyo is a guaranteed loss. It's possible for the Reds to win tomorrow.

Tonight was the game I thought they'd win. I really felt Homer was going to throw the ball well. Owings will throw 100 pitches tomorrow and not make it out of the 5th. Sunday's game is a given.

I think the Reds are 1 starter away from being really good next year. This year's just practice.

redsfandan
07-04-2009, 12:17 AM
Most of the time things just aren't as bad, or as good, as they're made out to be. Bob C wanted people to think this team was a contender. Some people wanted to think the Reds would lose more than last year cuz of the offense.
Games like tonight happen. It's still only one game.

Phhhl
07-04-2009, 12:20 AM
I do think that winning the next two sort of nullifies the sting of this loss. If you win 2 out of 3, you can be happy, period. But what I always wonder is if a loss like tonight DECREASES our chances of winning the next two when you consider momentum, confidence, etc. I don't have the answer to that question, but I've always thought that it stands to reason that certain wins or losses actually wind up meaning more than just that one game.

I know what you mean, but I have kind of given up on that theory. The Reds have had so many dramatic, walk off wins since the opening of GABP, and every time I hoped it would lead to some kind of historic winning streak that would propel them into the playoffs. And, yet it never did. In fact, they always seemed to lose multiple games after one of those, almost as if the victory took so much out of the team that it couldn't rebound from it. In the end, it just reminded me that the unlikely win was as much dumb luck as anything, and those teams just weren't very good. When they returned to the field the next day, nothing had changed.

This team has solid pitching. The lineup is sad. That is not going to change when they come to the ballpark tomorrow either.

Hoosier Red
07-04-2009, 12:22 AM
This loss will be the beginning of a tailspin, IMO.

I feel so bad for Homer Bailey. The guy pitched the game of his life and the manager/defense/offense/bullpen blows it for him. Huge loss.

You know its funny, the Reds have had so many "big" wins like the Cardinals did tonight. Those wins usually led a to a two-four game losing streak. No reason why the reverse can't happen.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 12:23 AM
If the wheels are gonna fall off after this loss, where were the predictions of a great winning streak because of "momentum" from winning yesterday's game? Baseball is an every day game and momentum from one game to the next is not much of a factor.

Always Red
07-04-2009, 12:57 AM
Big loss for the Reds, huge win for the Reds with a Bailey game like that.

x2

This is the best I have ever seen Homer PITCH. Locating, changing speed; the guy looks like he knows what he is doing out there. When he struck out Pujols in the 1st, you could almost see the confidence enter his body.

Maturity in a pitcher is a very good thing. And it is born out of struggle. Homer had known nothing but success until 2 years ago, and the last 2 years have been a big adjustment for him. But he has shown the ability to adapt, change, adjust. Especially since he was up for the one short stint earlier this year.

Bad loss for the Reds, but the take home message tonight is very good. IMO

HeatherC1212
07-04-2009, 01:28 AM
It's so annoying how many people on this board seem to wait for the random clunker games from the Reds just so they can moan and groan about how this team is horrible, can't do anything right, and don't know how to win. That's gotten really old. :rolleyes:

Four Reasons I'm Not Going to Tear My Hair Out Over This Loss:
1. The Reds lost their first game against the Indians last weekend with a horrible score and pretty much played like crap. They got it together for the next two games and ended up taking the series. They lost the first game in the recent DBacks series but then found ways to win the next two games. They're developing a habit of losing the first game of a series and then buckling down and finding a way to win the next two games. Let's see if they keep this pattern up for the third series in a row. (FYI: The last time the Cards were in town, the pitching held Albert to TWO 0-fers in the first two games and then he got their number a bit in the last game. Maybe the reverse will happen this time and he goes 0-fer tomorrow and Sunday? Don't laugh, it could happen. ;))

2. I'm VERY encouraged by Homer's start tonight. He shut down a pretty decent offense and kept Albert in check every single time. He was pretty much unhittable tonight and I'm hoping this is the start of the dominant Bailey the Reds were hoping for when they drafted him #1.

3. Encarnacion looked pretty good at the plate and in the field and he SMOKED that double to left field. Hopefully that's the jumpstart he needs to start hitting like we know he can hit and helps get the Reds offense some life.

4. The offense wasn't totally dead tonight. The guys were getting hits and they actually had the winning run at the plate with the bases loaded at the end of this game. It would have been thrilling to see them pull off a win but just the fact that they got things that far in the 9th inning shows how much grit and determination these guys are playing with right now. They certainly don't give up and I honestly don't think it's fair to write them off as a team that "doesn't know how to win". They've won a few games this year that they would have lost by a landslide in the past and I think they're learning how to win as a team. I don't think any of them like to lose but they also seem to understand that the next game is a new opportunity for them to get a win and they usually come out ready to go for that opportunity.

Yes, this loss sucked and I definitely screamed at my TV a few times but letting this eat you alive isn't going to do any good. I'm ready for tomorrow's game and I'm looking forward to seeing the Reds play at home again. Hopefully Micah throws as well as he did last weekend in Cleveland and the offense comes out ready to go again so they can get a win.

redsfandan
07-04-2009, 02:58 AM
Wow Heather, something bugging you? lol I think what the Reds are thinking tells alot:

"The Reds will wait it out and ramp up their pursuit of a bat if they're in the race later in the month."

The next three weeks will be very important. More important than just tonights game. Worst case scenario we're STILL in better shape then a year ago.

TheNext44
07-04-2009, 03:10 AM
Carpenter vs. Arroyo is a guaranteed loss. It's possible for the Reds to win tomorrow.

I'll take that bet.

Carpenter is 1-3 with a 4.41 ERA in his last 5 starts. Better than Arroyo, 1-3 6.51 ERA, but not a sure thing.

CTA513
07-04-2009, 03:50 AM
I'll take that bet.

Carpenter is 1-3 with a 4.41 ERA in his last 5 starts. Better than Arroyo, 1-3 6.51 ERA, but not a sure thing.

I don't know how it will turn out but the Cardinals hitters have had a lot more success against Arroyo then the Reds hitters have had against Carpenter.

OnBaseMachine
07-04-2009, 04:11 AM
You'll believe that until about 5 minutes before the first pitch tomorrow...and then you will convince yourself to watch JUST ONE more game.....

Oh, I'll still follow the game. I'll follow via the game thread and MLB.com scoreboard but I'm going to try to take a week or two off from watching the games. It's less frustrating that way.

This loss still stings and probably will for a long time. This could have been a special night. A big win in front of a sellout crowd on a night where Homer Bailey dominated and moved the Reds to within a game of first place. Instead, here we are back at .500, three games back, and our worst two starting pitchers going the next two games.

Caveat Emperor
07-04-2009, 04:42 AM
Carpenter vs. Arroyo is a guaranteed loss. It's possible for the Reds to win tomorrow.

When you're talking about the Reds, there are no guarantees either way.

And, FWIW, woy summed it up perfectly:

Tonight was a loss for the Reds, but potentially a huge win if this was the game where Homer Bailey turned the corner.

If that is the case, and Homer does start to become the pitcher everyone thought he could be, this game will be more remembered for the moment where Bust Bailey was reborn -- striking out Albert Pujols with 2 on in the first inning.

Mario-Rijo
07-04-2009, 05:01 AM
You are far from the only one that feels/has felt this way, but this might be the fourth, fifth or sixth time you've echoed that sentiment this year. Very rarely does one gut-wrenching loss truly cause a tailspin. Certainly if one could, this is the kind that would qualify. That said... if this were against any of the other 28 teams in Major League Baseball that did not have a super human playing first base for them, the Reds win this game.

Instead of everyone pointing fingers and placing blame, let's just give credit to the other guy. Albert Pujols is simply not a normal baseball player. He does things that defy logic, and thereby, you can't treat managerial decisions like any other player. Quite honestly, there was no right thing to do with him at the plate. Anyone that pitches to him is subject to what we witnessed. Intentionally walking him is actually my preference for him in that situation, but I will never fault any manager that does not want to purposely allow a run to score.

Anyone who watched this game should recognize just that. This is one where you have to give credit to the other guy and not just Pujols. Homer dominated them all game and they come out in the 8th did their jobs, everyone in front of Pujols did a great job of getting on base and forcing the Reds pitchers to have to pitch to Pujols. IMO Dusty might have been a bit quick yanking Bailey, I actually thought that at the time. But I understand why he did. I do question bringing in Rhodes to face a RHH especially since he hasn't been the same his last few outings after that charity golf event he participated in about 2 weeks ago or so. Why not Weathers there and then Rhodes if Stormy couldn't get it done? Also I would have used Masset vs. Pujols and from here on out they need to send guys up there vs. him with power stuff, crafty guys just don't consistently get him out. Herrera comes in and started tossing up balls right off or Janish would have never been in the position he was in.

Tonight was a night where Dusty's lack of creativity and habit of doing the exact same thing did hurt us make no mistake. But his pitchers got hit hard and that was mostly due to the Cards manning up, tip your cap and move on.

Jpup
07-04-2009, 05:09 AM
I thought Bailey should have been done after the 7th. There was no reason to send him out there for the 8th. He was at the perfect spot in the game to take him out. Now, I see people questioning taking him out too "early". I thought it was too late. Weathers or Massett should have started the 8th and then I don't think the Reds would have lost the game. It's just one game, but it's very frustrating losing to the Cardinals like that.

Mario-Rijo
07-04-2009, 05:15 AM
I thought Bailey should have been done after the 7th. There was no reason to send him out there for the 8th. He was at the perfect spot in the game to take him out. Now, I see people questioning taking him out too "early". I thought it was too late. Weathers or Massett should have started the 8th and then I don't think the Reds would have lost the game. It's just one game, but it's very frustrating losing to the Cardinals like that.

I thought about that as well, but once you let him hit & send him out for the 8th and the way he was pitching maybe you give him a legit chance to finish the inning. Just because he got 2 on doesn't mean he couldn't have dug deep and finished off that inning. But I understand why Dusty pulled him there even though yeah he should have just hit for him and took him out in the 7th. But to say one of those guys would not have done the same or something similiar is to say you believe the Cards had nothing to do with it and I disagree. They came out smoking and again they took it more than I think we gave it up.

Jpup
07-04-2009, 05:18 AM
I thought about that as well, but once you let him hit & send him out for the 8th and the way he was pitching maybe you give him a legit chance to finish the inning. Just because he got 2 on doesn't mean he couldn't have dug deep and finished off that inning. But I understand why Dusty pulled him there even though yeah he should have just hit for him and took him out in the 7th. But to say one of those guys would not have done the same or something similiar is to say you believe the Cards had nothing to do with it and I disagree. They came out smoking and again they took it more than I think we gave it up.

I think the fatigue of Bailey caused the mess. It wasn't his fault. He should have been taken out.

BTW, I would have walked Pujols in that spot and then Ludwick probably would have homered, but it was worth a shot. No way I pitch to him with the bases loaded and the game on the line.

Mario-Rijo
07-04-2009, 05:24 AM
I think the fatigue of Bailey caused the mess. It wasn't his fault. He should have been taken out.

BTW, I would have walked Pujols in that spot and then Ludwick probably would have homered, but it was worth a shot. No way I pitch to him with the bases loaded and the game on the line.

I agree on both counts. Ludwick has been stinking it up this year compared to last, I would have made him beat me.

cincyinco
07-04-2009, 05:32 AM
I don't know that game against the Cardinals that they went from up 9-3 in the ninth to lose 10-9 might be the worst loss I have seen. this was bad no doubt but that took more then one big hit to get

I usually hate posts like this, but it seems appropriate..

+1

I remember that game was on a Monday. I skipped work early to head to bowling league night thinking the reds had the game handily, only to arrive at the alley and see graves implode. Sickening. Worst. Loss. Ever.

Hands down.

redsmetz
07-04-2009, 09:44 AM
Not saying tonight's game really "means" anything, but if a Reds fan went into a coma sometime in October of 1999 and woke up tonight and asked me what it's been like following the Reds since then.....I would simply put in the tape of tonight's game and say "here, watch this."

I've been waiting all year for one of those games that makes me want to bash my head against a wall, mildly surprised they waited until July 3rd to do it :)

Ed, we're out in Missouri visiting my in-laws and watched this game with them. They, of course, were elated. I was crestfallen. But my brother-in-law reminded me that it's a long season and the Cards have had the same unevenness as we have (and really pretty much of the division). And I remembered that I said earlier of some game that was butt ugly that we won, that you win some you should lose and lose some you should win. I would have liked this game on the W side and Homer didn't deserve having that win slip away.

You're right that bashing one's head against the wall would have felt good. I've been a booster of Dusty, but when FSN Missouri showed the stat that Pujols was batting .500 against Weathers, my jaw dropped. But then I checked Rhodes stats against him and Pujols was hitting him at a .400 clip. Choose your poison. We shouldn't have been there, but we were.

But we tied it up and then Herrara showed us what living with him is going to be like. When he's throwing strikes he can keep guys off balance, but when he's not, they can tee off on him. He was hitting some corners and wasn't getting the calls (and I had no complaint with them, they didn't look like bad calls), but if he's not getting the edges called, we get last night.

I would have liked a win yesterday. This one hurt emotionally. But lets get the next two.

Highlifeman21
07-04-2009, 09:57 AM
It stinks because you measure the talent on the Reds and compare it to the talent on the Cards and its not like they are better. Hell aside from Pujols I don't think there is much I'd rather have theirs than ours.

Yet the sum of their parts is greater than that of the Reds somehow.

It makes no sense.

No sense.

Dave Duncan > Dick Pole

Tony LaRussa > The Dusty


That should make all the sense in the world. They get more out of less, where it seems Teh Dusty Pole definitely get less out of more.

Highlifeman21
07-04-2009, 09:59 AM
Carpenter vs. Arroyo is a guaranteed loss. It's possible for the Reds to win tomorrow.

Pete Rose would definitely bet on the Reds to lose tomorrow with Arroyo goin' against Carpenter.

redsfandan
07-04-2009, 10:08 AM
Dave Duncan > Dick Pole

Tony LaRussa > The Dusty


That should make all the sense in the world. They get more out of less, where it seems Teh Dusty Pole definitely get less out of more.
It's easy to rip the coaching staff. REALLY easy sometimes. But I bet most people wouldn't have thought we'd be .500 at this point with so much missed time from Votto, Volquez, EE, etc. I would agree if people want to say that we'd have won a couple more with a different staff but that's about it.

Highlifeman21
07-04-2009, 10:14 AM
It's easy to rip the coaching staff. REALLY easy sometimes. But I bet most people wouldn't have thought we'd be .500 at this point with so much missed time from Votto, Volquez, EE, etc. I would agree if people want to say that we'd have won a couple more with a different staff but that's about it.

LaRussa and Duncan do it constantly, year in and year out.

This year we've enjoyed a bullpen that's pitched out of their mind, combined with an improved Cueto (although the rest of the rotation hasn't exactly pitched lights out), with some improved defense.

IIRC, we have a harder 2nd half schedule than first, so it's fathomable that we're around .500, although wasn't all that likely.

redsfandan
07-04-2009, 10:37 AM
Hey, I'd rather have LaRussa/Duncan too. But I also think that how much the manager/coaching staff have to do with the win-loss record can be overstated sometimes. Especially after games like last night. The players are what count the most.

forfreelin04
07-04-2009, 10:58 AM
Well, I didn't see the game. I was at work and just followed the score on my $15 track phone, but I wasn't all that surprised or upset. I was happy Bailey did well more than anything. If he could even be league average the rest of the year, it will could force Walt to finally trade Arroyo and get rid of his contract. Also, Bailey's upside could produce more of these starts in the years to come. That is very exciting.
I know we all want to win now and are tired of waiting. But this is a young team, a team that played horribly on Thursday afternoon. A game, IMO, they deserved and should have lost. Things turned on a dime yesterday, but they happen in a 162 game season. (Just usually not back to back)

I think this team is capable of taking both of the next two games because that's how good they can be. Of course, they can also get trounced both games because that's how bad they can be. This team is not playoff bound and the only reason they are getting a sniff is because this division is awful. But, like I said Bailey's sucess last night gives me hope they could be a playoff team for 4 to 5 years at least.

Kc61
07-04-2009, 11:33 AM
Tough loss, but every team has them. Reds got away with one on Thursday when they blew opportunity after opportunity and pulled one out against Arizona. Last night's tough game went the other way.

Bullpen has been great, was due to falter and did. Dusty may have left Homer in a batter too long, but the pen didn't have it anyway.

Overall key to last game is that the Reds have a new starting pitcher. I watched a chunk of the game and Bailey can be as good as anyone on this staff. He has tremendous stuff, now has three pitches, it's just a question of showing up with sommand.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-04-2009, 11:44 AM
I've been a booster of Dusty, but when FSN Missouri showed the stat that Pujols was batting .500 against Weathers, my jaw dropped. But then I checked Rhodes stats against him and Pujols was hitting him at a .400 clip. Choose your poison. We shouldn't have been there, but we were.

How about Francisco Cordero, the team's best relief pitcher (that's making $12M a year)?

MWM
07-04-2009, 11:57 AM
I'm in town and went to the game last night. First game I've been to in over a year and I haven't watched one second of Reds baseball this year either. My exact thought in the 8th and 9th was exactly what Ed said in his original post. Last night's game was pretty much a representation of what the Reds have been over the past 9 years.

It doesn't mean anything and it was bound to happen, but it was a reminder of what the Reds have been.

westofyou
07-04-2009, 12:04 PM
How about Francisco Cordero, the team's best relief pitcher (that's making $12M a year)?

In the 70's before the save became a gold standard measurement the best pitcher would come in in that instance, but the game has changed somewhat with roles being too defined at the end of the game, but for the record Albert is 3-8 against Cordero and I would have brought HIM in, because once you get through that issue then the rest should be cake. Who gives a rats behind about a "save" the team should want the win more than a "save" assigned to a reliever to use to extract more cash at payday.

lollipopcurve
07-04-2009, 12:07 PM
Last night's game was pretty much a representation of what the Reds have been over the past 9 years.

Did Homer Bailey's performance make an impression?

MWM
07-04-2009, 12:09 PM
Well, here's what I posted in another thread:


From my seat behind home plate last night Homer looked every bit as dominant as his state line indicated. He had them off balance all night and they took very few good cuts at the ball. He mixed his speeds beautifully, had command of his pitches, and was generally in control of about every AB.

I've been as pessimistic as anyone about him, and am still a skeptic, but what I saw last night is a different pitcher than I've seen before. I hope he's found something that is sustainable, because last night's pitcher was a legit big time MLB pitcher.

OnBaseMachine
07-04-2009, 12:15 PM
I thought Bailey should have been done after the 7th. There was no reason to send him out there for the 8th. He was at the perfect spot in the game to take him out. Now, I see people questioning taking him out too "early". I thought it was too late. Weathers or Massett should have started the 8th and then I don't think the Reds would have lost the game. It's just one game, but it's very frustrating losing to the Cardinals like that.

I agree. I would have pinch hit for him in the seventh inning, but I could see why Dusty sent him back out there for the eighth inning. There's nothing wrong with that. Here's where my beef is: If you're going to send Bailey back out for the eighth inning, give him one baserunner. If someone reaches base, you pull him immediately and go to the bullpen. Instead, Dusty left him in long enough to put two runners on.

I'm still wondering how in the world Arthur Rhodes could walk some guy named Jarrett Hoffpauir with the best hitter in the world on deck. That was terrible.

RedsManRick
07-04-2009, 12:17 PM
How about Francisco Cordero, the team's best relief pitcher (that's making $12M a year)?

But he's your "closer".... agreed by the way. Funny how the same people who deride stats are so beholden to one. That was the game right there -- our best reliever should have been the one to take the hill.

If you're going to take Rhodes out of the game, at least replace him with somebody who is more likely to get him out. That was Dusty managing by role instead of skill set, yet again.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-04-2009, 01:07 PM
But he's your "closer".... agreed by the way. Funny how the same people who deride stats are so beholden to one. That was the game right there -- our best reliever should have been the one to take the hill.

Exactly. Let Cordero get us out of the jam in the 8th and then have Weathers pitch the 9th with a 1,2, or even 3-run lead.

Quite possible that Cordero only needs a few pitches to get out of the 8th (Pujols DP) anyway and then can pitch the 9th for his "save".

fearofpopvol1
07-04-2009, 02:13 PM
But he's your "closer".... agreed by the way. Funny how the same people who deride stats are so beholden to one. That was the game right there -- our best reliever should have been the one to take the hill.

If you're going to take Rhodes out of the game, at least replace him with somebody who is more likely to get him out. That was Dusty managing by role instead of skill set, yet again.

Amen. That's unfortunately the Dusty right there.

TheNext44
07-04-2009, 02:21 PM
But he's your "closer".... agreed by the way. Funny how the same people who deride stats are so beholden to one. That was the game right there -- our best reliever should have been the one to take the hill.

If you're going to take Rhodes out of the game, at least replace him with somebody who is more likely to get him out. That was Dusty managing by role instead of skill set, yet again.

Completely agree. What makes matters worse is that Weathers simply is not a setup man, not an 8th inning guy, not someone you want when you need an out or two. With men on base, it's like playing russian roulette.

Yeah, he'd been successful until last night, but that was due more to luck than his pitching ability. Going into tonight, he had a .226 BABIP. His career is .301, near the league norm. That will revert to the norm by the end of the season.

Weathers should be pitching the 6th or 7th, coming in with no men on base, when his strike throwing will result in a scoreless inning more times than not.

He's been lucky so far, and it was going to catch up to him eventually. Unfortunately, last night it did.

TheNext44
07-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Amen. That's unfortunately the Dusty right there.

Actually Dusty does not "deride stats". That's not his problem. He clearly uses stats, and believes that they are an important part of managing. Beat reporters write about the pile of stats that Dusty and his coaching staff go through everyday.

His problem is much bigger than that. He simply refuses to learn, let alone accept, the value of new stats, of improvements that are made in stat world on a nearly daily basis. Dusty manages using outdated stats, and views of them, which can be worse than ignoring stats altogether.

The key to stats is not the which stats you use, but how you use them.

Basically, Dusty manages like it's 1979.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-04-2009, 03:59 PM
Actually Dusty does not "deride stats". That's not his problem. He clearly uses stats, and believes that they are an important part of managing. Beat reporters write about the pile of stats that Dusty and his coaching staff go through everyday.

His problem is much bigger than that. He simply refuses to learn, let alone accept, the value of new stats, of improvements that are made in stat world on a nearly daily basis. Dusty manages using outdated stats, and views of them, which can be worse than ignoring stats altogether.

The key to stats is not the which stats you use, but how you use them.

Basically, Dusty manages like it's 1979.


The problem, I think, is that Dusty relies more on the counting stat.

Rate stats seem to be ignored.

traderumor
07-04-2009, 05:13 PM
Actually Dusty does not "deride stats". That's not his problem. He clearly uses stats, and believes that they are an important part of managing. Beat reporters write about the pile of stats that Dusty and his coaching staff go through everyday.

His problem is much bigger than that. He simply refuses to learn, let alone accept, the value of new stats, of improvements that are made in stat world on a nearly daily basis. Dusty manages using outdated stats, and views of them, which can be worse than ignoring stats altogether.

The key to stats is not the which stats you use, but how you use them.

Basically, Dusty manages like it's 1979.So, which stats does Dusty use?

traderumor
07-04-2009, 05:21 PM
In the 70's before the save became a gold standard measurement the best pitcher would come in in that instance, but the game has changed somewhat with roles being too defined at the end of the game, but for the record Albert is 3-8 against Cordero and I would have brought HIM in, because once you get through that issue then the rest should be cake. Who gives a rats behind about a "save" the team should want the win more than a "save" assigned to a reliever to use to extract more cash at payday.Amen. And that is one cudo I'll give LaRussa, is that he gets what you're talking about and probably would have brought in his best reliever there, all other things equal.