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Edskin
07-04-2009, 12:31 PM
3rd on the team in BA, 5th on the team in OBP, and he's been MUCH more productive in an category vs. AB ratio than Hernandez. Hanigan should be the everyday catcher, with Ramon getting 1-2 starts a week. On top of that, Hanigan should be batting 2nd..or maybe leading off when we face lefties. Now that EE has returned, I think Dusty finally has options-- he's just choosing to defer to the vets at this point-- which drives me nuts.

(Also, I like he slid Willy down a slot---maybe by the end of next year he'll finally make it down to the 8 hole where he belongs!)

Dickerson CF
Hanigan C
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Edwin 3B
Bruce RF
Gomes LF
Hairston SS

Is it really that hard?

Unassisted
07-04-2009, 12:50 PM
In Dusty's world, if you're paid more, you should play more. To do otherwise shows "disrespect."

OnBaseMachine
07-04-2009, 01:07 PM
In Dusty's world, if you're paid more, you should play more. To do otherwise shows "disrespect."

Yep. That's why Taveras continues to play everyday. They have to justify that contract.

fearofpopvol1
07-04-2009, 01:08 PM
Hernandez has been better of late in all fairness. But the one thing I would say is Hanigan should be seeing more playing time than he has as of late regardless.

RedsManRick
07-04-2009, 01:14 PM
21 BB, 12 K. Hannigan is an MLB caliber starting catcher and I have to believe he'll be our starting catcher next year. For now, it's a good problem to have. I would like to see him catch Bailey and one of the other young catchers with whom he already has a good relationship. He should be playing 2-3 days a week.

Always Red
07-04-2009, 01:18 PM
In Dusty's world, if you're paid more, you should play more. To do otherwise shows "disrespect."

It's also a sign of not being to admit that you were wrong.

If Dusty (and the FO) benches WT, then Dusty and WJ have to admit thay were wrong about him. IF they keep playing him, then he is just "slumping" a bit, and he will be back to "normal" soon. (Yes, I know WT's normal is not good.) Plus, it's different than the Patterson case in that Taveras is signed through next year.

One thing I do like about how Dusty handles players is that he very seldom bashes or blames them publicly. He always is supportive, and I can understand how guys like to play for him. We don't like it, but I am sure the players do.

OTOH, Hernandez and Hanigan have caught almost exactly the same amount of innings (just a bit over 350 each). Hanigan is having a very good year, but Hernandez has also been a good addition for this team. I do like how Dusty has been handling the catching; neither will be worn out by the time September arrives.

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2009, 01:30 PM
I agree...let's not wear out someone who has never caught a full season in the majors and before he has had a full year to see if he can sustain what he has done so far.

It's not like Hernandez is Alex Trevino.

Mario-Rijo
07-04-2009, 06:05 PM
I agree...let's not wear out someone who has never caught a full season in the majors and before he has had a full year to see if he can sustain what he has done so far.

It's not like Hernandez is Alex Trevino.

I agree. What happens if you make that move, risk your chemistry and Hanigan begins to struggle after catching 5 times a week for a while? Oh it may not happen but it could and then you have hurt the whole team. Let Hanigan get a bit more playing time whenever you can but don't ruin a good thing they are both holding their own and in it mentally.

TRF
07-04-2009, 06:09 PM
Hernandez played today, but I'd bet Hanigan goes tomorrow with Arroyo on the mound

BCubb2003
07-04-2009, 06:51 PM
I like Dusty's stability more the random lineup generators of the previous managers, and I think the front office always be slower to act than we would.

Kc61
07-04-2009, 07:26 PM
I like Dusty's stability more the random lineup generators of the previous managers, and I think the front office always be slower to act than we would.

Be careful. This could be taken as a pro-Dusty post or, worse, a pro-Taveras post. That would be a problem around here.

I like the Dickerson-Taveras one-two punch at the top of the order. Taveras is more effective with Dickerson on base because he doesn't hit into DPs and his speed causes problems for defenders. It's worked well the last few games and Nix is good off the bench, I prefer him in that role.

Hanigan has played plenty and will likely play one of every three games from now on. It's ok, Hernandez is good too, it's not a problem that he is catching most of the time IMO.

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2009, 08:15 PM
In 1985 the Reds were in need of offense at the top...they put Milner and Redus back to back....then went to scoring runs for about a 10-20 game period. If it works like that....then ride it out as long as possible.

Raisor
07-04-2009, 08:33 PM
For a team that struggles to score runs, it's a bit crazy that Hannigan isn't starting the majority of the games.

Ramon RC/27-4.25, RC/PA-31.6/289

Han RC/27-7.21, RC/PA-24.8/158


If you swap Ramon's and Hannigan's PA's and Willy & CD's PA's, and keep their RC rate, the Reds pick up 10 runs, about one extra win.

Every win counts.

Big Klu
07-04-2009, 09:44 PM
There will be plenty of opportunities for both catchers as the weather heats up. As a guideline, I would have Hernandez be the primary catcher, but have Hanigan be the usual catcher for Bailey and Arroyo. I would also make sure that in the event of a day game after a night game, each catcher gets one start.

Mario-Rijo
07-05-2009, 02:01 AM
There will be plenty of opportunities for both catchers as the weather heats up. As a guideline, I would have Hernandez be the primary catcher, but have Hanigan be the usual catcher for Bailey and Arroyo. I would also make sure that in the event of a day game after a night game, each catcher gets one start.

Hernandez certainly didn't do to bad with Homer the other night, maybe it's to his advantage to not be too comfortable with his catcher. Maybe Hernandez is more assertive with him, or maybe not but it's a thought.

VR
07-05-2009, 02:11 AM
For a team that struggles to score runs, it's a bit crazy that Hannigan isn't starting the majority of the games.

Ramon RC/27-4.25, RC/PA-31.6/289

Han RC/27-7.21, RC/PA-24.8/158


If you swap Ramon's and Hannigan's PA's and Willy & CD's PA's, and keep their RC rate, the Reds pick up 10 runs, about one extra win.

Every win counts.

Are Ramon's RC #'s as a catcher, or overall?

Timing wise....Hanigan caught a lot of games, and could use a bit of rest on the legs. While Hernandez is here....he's going to get the majority of starts. Hopefully Hanigan gets a chance to learn the pitching staff a bit better while he's riding the pine.

He certainly has impressed with his overall receiving....a lot. Framing the ball, throwing out runners, blocking the ball....I think he's better already than RH there right now. His time will come, it's good to know we've got that position covered for a few years....because 12 months ago it was a trainwreck.

Raisor
07-05-2009, 04:18 PM
Are Ramon's RC #'s as a catcher, or overall?

.

overall

bucksfan2
07-06-2009, 09:30 AM
I like Hanigan's approach at the plate but I am not ready to insert him into the lineup more or move him up. Let him become comfortable with catching a full season before we anoint him the every day catcher. When Votto was out he got the bulk of catching duty and that may wear on him as the season goes along.

As for hitting early in the order I just don't think he would be successful. He doesn't have much power and is painfully slow on the base paths. If he develop some pop in his bat then I wouldn't be so hesitant putting him in the 2 hole.

Benihana
07-06-2009, 04:52 PM
I'd like to see Hanigan catch Owings, Bailey and Arroyo with Hernandez catching Cueto and Volquez (when he comes back.) I'd let Harang choose his catcher- I believe he's earned that right. There's no doubt Hernandez is going to have a better repoire with the Latin guys, and he has earned the right to play at least 2-3 days a week if not more.

Regardless, I have to think Hanigan gets the full-time nod next season.

Kc61
07-06-2009, 04:56 PM
Regardless, I have to think Hanigan gets the full-time nod next season.


Maybe. But remember, some guys do well in part time roles and have trouble maintaining it on a full time basis. I'm not sure about whether Hanigan is a full time starting catcher. Maybe the lead guy with a very good backup catching 60 games.

Benihana
07-06-2009, 05:11 PM
Maybe. But remember, some guys do well in part time roles and have trouble maintaining it on a full time basis. I'm not sure about whether Hanigan is a full time starting catcher. Maybe the lead guy with a very good backup catching 60 games.

Agree completely.

I'm by no means anointing Hanigan as the next Johnny Bench, or even necessarily the next Jason LaRue. But I do think he has probably earned the opportunity.

Homer Bailey
07-07-2009, 02:18 PM
Maybe. But remember, some guys do well in part time roles and have trouble maintaining it on a full time basis. I'm not sure about whether Hanigan is a full time starting catcher. Maybe the lead guy with a very good backup catching 60 games.

I agree 100% with this statement. However, I don't think that Hanigan's success is a fluke by any stretch of the imagination (and I know you did not say they were a fluke). His minor league numbers indicate that he is a very good OBP guy, and someone this lineup desperately need. I think he should start about 60-70% of the time next year.

BRM
07-07-2009, 03:53 PM
Hanigan is going to be picking splinters out of his rear from sitting so much. 3 starts, 15 plate appearances in the last two weeks.

TheNext44
07-07-2009, 04:10 PM
Not saying that it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hernandez is traded at the trading deadline. There simply are not that many catchers available, so any team needing one would have to overpay.

Hernandez could fetch some nice prospects and Hanigan could handle the catching for the rest of the season if the Reds picked up a decent veteran backup.

Benihana
07-07-2009, 04:23 PM
Not saying that it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hernandez is traded at the trading deadline. There simply are not that many catchers available, so any team needing one would have to overpay.

Hernandez could fetch some nice prospects and Hanigan could handle the catching for the rest of the season if the Reds picked up a decent veteran backup.

I'd be fine with it.

Hernandez
Gomes
Maloney
Weathers (unless he becomes a Type B)
Rhodes (unless he becomes a Type B)

are all guys with a some actual trade value who don't quite fit into the Reds' long-term picture. Packaging some or all of them could land the Reds some nice talent at the deadline.

bucksfan2
07-07-2009, 04:35 PM
I think the way the Reds are using Hanigan is perfectly fine. Let him become a successful backup catcher for a year before he is trusted into the day in day out catcher. If the Reds goal with Hernandez was for him to be the stop gap before Hanigan took over the full time duties then it has worked pretty well.

LvJ
07-07-2009, 04:38 PM
Hanigan is whiter than Hernandez.

Benihana
07-07-2009, 04:40 PM
I think the way the Reds are using Dusty is perfectly fine. Let him become a successful backup catcher for a year before he is trusted into the day in day out catcher. If the Reds goal with Hernandez was for him to be the stop gap before Hanigan took over the full time duties then it has worked pretty well.

Sure, he's done well in his gig as the backup catcher. Why not use the last two months of this season to see how he handles the starting gig? That way, you can pursue someone else in the offseason if you feel he's not ready to takeover full time. However if he is, it frees you up to worry about other acquisitions. (And it frees up Hernandez to acquire such talent at the deadline.)

For the last two months of this season, I'm sure Tatum could handle backup duty. While his stick leaves something to be desired, he is pretty sound defensively. Meanwhile, if you need to upgrade the position (either starter or backup) this offseason, you can do so.

bucksfan2
07-07-2009, 04:46 PM
Sure, he's done well in his gig as the backup catcher. Why not use the last two months of this season to see how he handles the starting gig? That way, you can pursue someone else in the offseason if you feel he's not ready to takeover full time. However if he is, it frees you up to worry about other acquisitions. (And it frees up Hernandez to acquire such talent at the deadline.)

For the last two months of this season, I'm sure Tatum could handle backup duty. While his stick leaves something to be desired, he is pretty sound defensively. Meanwhile, if you need to upgrade the position (either starter or backup) this offseason, you can do so.

Thats perfectly fine. Hanigan got a lot of PT earlier this year with Votto's injury and Hernandez playing 1b. I can imagine it is quite a jump going from a catcher in the minors to becoming the every day catcher. If the Reds get a good offer for Hernandez then I would be ok with trading him and moving Hanigan into his role. I just don't think it is in the best interest of Hanigan's development to become the full time catcher in his rookie season.

REDSEER
07-07-2009, 04:47 PM
The thing that has amazed me about Hanigan is that even with his spot time he has done well in his limited action. Many guys that see extended time taken away like that take at least a few AB's to get "back in the groove."

Hanigan has needed no such time in his limited appearances. This tells me more about his work ethic than anything. Hopefully he gets a fair chance to be an everyday catcher when Ramon is gone.

TheNext44
07-07-2009, 05:12 PM
For the last two months of this season, I'm sure Tatum could handle backup duty.

Don't forget Corky Miller. ;)

To give one an idea of how thin the catching trade market is, MLBTR has Javier Valentin on the short list of available catchers.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/trade-candidates-catchers.html


Trade Candidates: Catchers
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 6, 2009 at 1:17pm CST]

The market for catchers has been silent this year, as many contenders are set behind the plate. Itís partially a coincidence, but still noteworthy that so many of baseballís best teams have catchers performing well. Here are a few backstops who could be available this month:

* Ramon Hernandez - Likely expendable because of Ryan Hanigan's emergence, Hernandez has hit .252/.333/.368 with five homers and more walks than strikeouts this year. He doesn't come cheap though, as he makes $8MM.
* Yorvit Torrealba - The Rockies have Chris Iannetta, so Torrealba and his career OPS of .700 are expendable. He'll earn $3.5MM this year and there's a mutual option for 2010 on his contract.
* Ivan Rodriguez - The Astros aren't selling now, but Rodriguez, who was dealt at last year's deadline, could become trade bait if Houston falls out of it. He makes from $1.5-3MM this year, depending on incentives.
* Javier Valentin - This free agent hit relatively well with the Reds as recently as last year.

So unless Chip is moonlighting at MLBTR, that is a very thin list.

Raisor
07-07-2009, 05:35 PM
Hernandez has a sub 700 OPS on a team having scoring issues. Hanigan has an OBP well over .400 (OPS 821).

If they're playing to win, it should be Hanigan. If they're playing for next year it should be Hanigan.

The roles should be reversed.

Dickerson, Votto, Gomes, and Hanigan should be playing at every opportunity.

BRM
07-07-2009, 05:51 PM
Hernandez has a sub 700 OPS on a team having scoring issues. Hanigan has an OBP well over .400 (OPS 821).

If they're playing to win, it should be Hanigan. If they're playing for next year it should be Hanigan.

The roles should be reversed.

Dickerson, Votto, Gomes, and Hanigan should be playing at every opportunity.

Stop making sense.

Benihana
07-07-2009, 05:53 PM
Hernandez has a sub 700 OPS on a team having scoring issues. Hanigan has an OBP well over .400 (OPS 821).

If they're playing to win, it should be Hanigan. If they're playing for next year it should be Hanigan.

The roles should be reversed.

Dickerson, Votto, Gomes, and Hanigan should be playing at every opportunity.

x2

TRF
07-07-2009, 07:35 PM
Hanigan is whiter than Hernandez.

Lame, and this is coming from someone that has been the master of lame posts lately.

savafan
07-07-2009, 07:57 PM
The Reds aren't paying all of the $8 million on Hernandez's contract though, are they?

SMcGavin
07-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Not saying that it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hernandez is traded at the trading deadline. There simply are not that many catchers available, so any team needing one would have to overpay.

Hernandez could fetch some nice prospects and Hanigan could handle the catching for the rest of the season if the Reds picked up a decent veteran backup.

This is a perfect plan. The reasons you mentioned are good, and it also gives the Reds an extended look at Hanigan to make sure he is who they want as #1 catcher next year.

Always Red
07-07-2009, 09:14 PM
OTOH, I really think the Dust is playing Hanigan (and the catching) just perfectly. He's pretty much splitting innings between the 2 catchers, and both will be fresher for that come September.

How many guys have we seen over the years who looked just great in a part time role, and couldn't handle it at all when given a full time job? Ryan has played very well, but he's a 28 year old rookie for a reason. Like others here, I am very content to see him play 3 or so times a week.

If the Reds can deal Ramon for something good before the end of this month- then fine, Ryan becomes the everyday catcher and Corky Miller probably the backup. And if Ryan can't cut it full time, then this team is looking for a catcher again, after stealing a decent one last winter from the O's for Ryan Freel and money.

LvJ
07-07-2009, 09:32 PM
Lame, and this is coming from someone that has been the master of lame posts lately. Proud to be the Master, brah.

It's cool though. I wasn't serious. Just a joke. Sorry I wasn't up to your standards.

TheNext44
07-07-2009, 10:32 PM
Hernandez has a sub 700 OPS on a team having scoring issues. Hanigan has an OBP well over .400 (OPS 821).

If they're playing to win, it should be Hanigan. If they're playing for next year it should be Hanigan.

The roles should be reversed.

Dickerson, Votto, Gomes, and Hanigan should be playing at every opportunity.

I'll make a bet with you. I bet that from tomorrow to the end of the season, Hernandez will either OPS at worst, 10 points lower than Hanigan. Just to be clear, that is not the total they will have at the end of the year, but the OPS of their PA's starting tomorrow to the end of the season.

Raisor
07-08-2009, 07:46 AM
I'll make a bet with you. I bet that from tomorrow to the end of the season, Hernandez will either OPS at worst, 10 points lower than Hanigan. Just to be clear, that is not the total they will have at the end of the year, but the OPS of their PA's starting tomorrow to the end of the season.

call it after the allstar break, which would be easier to follow.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-08-2009, 07:58 AM
OTOH, I really think the Dust is playing Hanigan (and the catching) just perfectly. He's pretty much splitting innings between the 2 catchers, and both will be fresher for that come September.

How many guys have we seen over the years who looked just great in a part time role, and couldn't handle it at all when given a full time job? Ryan has played very well, but he's a 28 year old rookie for a reason. Like others here, I am very content to see him play 3 or so times a week.

Good point.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-08-2009, 08:08 AM
The only thing that's really hurting Ramon's OPS is his SLG%. His OBP is above his career average and he's on pace for the most walks of his career. His SLG% being low is probably a case of being unlucky and I expect it will rise 30 to 50 points before the end of the season.

Now, his OBP may dip a bit, but with his increase in SLG%, I expect his OPS will eventually be somewhere around .730 to .740, which is fine by me.

Hernandez and Hanigan make one heck of a catching tandem. I've been happy with both and like the versatility Hernandez brings at 1B (although his bat is slightly weak to get regular AB's there).

Homer Bailey
07-08-2009, 09:53 AM
I'll make a bet with you. I bet that from tomorrow to the end of the season, Hernandez will either OPS at worst, 10 points lower than Hanigan. Just to be clear, that is not the total they will have at the end of the year, but the OPS of their PA's starting tomorrow to the end of the season.

I sent you a PM about this but never heard back. Don't want to hijack the thread, but did you and I make a bet about the Reds runs per game for the rest of the season? I can't find the thread and I can't remember who I made it with. Was it you Next?

Chip R
07-08-2009, 10:20 AM
Don't forget Corky Miller. ;)

To give one an idea of how thin the catching trade market is, MLBTR has Javier Valentin on the short list of available catchers.




So, you're telling me there's a chance?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cQb2tKyozEQ/SZYb_wfCxqI/AAAAAAAAA3k/cH6BsdLZkFQ/s400/a_chance.jpeg

Raisor
07-08-2009, 10:29 AM
To those of you that don't want to take a chance of Hanigan "flopping":

Isn't that something the Reds would want to know? In 233 major league AB's he's got the following line: .309 .400 .386 .786

Dude needs to be playing 5 days a week. If he flops, he flops.

nate
07-08-2009, 10:43 AM
How many guys have we seen over the years who looked just great in a part time role, and couldn't handle it at all when given a full time job?

I dunno, is that a cause? Because some part-timers have failed full-time, that will always happen and we shouldn't even try it?

Always Red
07-08-2009, 10:57 AM
I dunno, is that a cause? Because some part-timers have failed full-time, that will always happen and we shouldn't even try it?

a cause? No, more like a reminder.

In my very next sentence in that post I said if they can get something of value for Hernandez, then do so and give Hanigan the job.

And if he fails (my guess is that he is not a full time, everyday, major league catcher, but instead a very good backup) then the Reds are once again looking for a catcher.

I like Ryan Hanigan very much, but I don't think he's an everyday starter; some here do. We're all just guessing.

BRM
07-08-2009, 11:20 AM
I like Ryan Hanigan very much, but I don't think he's an everyday starter; some here do. We're all just guessing.

I think it's more that folks would like to see if he's an everyday starter. None of us will know if he is for sure unless he gets a shot. He's outproducing Hernandez in his limited time so far. Why not bump up his playing time to 4-5 starts per week for awhile and see how he handles it?

nate
07-08-2009, 11:24 AM
a cause? No, more like a reminder.

In my very next sentence in that post I said if they can get something of value for Hernandez, then do so and give Hanigan the job.

And if he fails (my guess is that he is not a full time, everyday, major league catcher, but instead a very good backup) then the Reds are once again looking for a catcher.

I like Ryan Hanigan very much, but I don't think he's an everyday starter; some here do. We're all just guessing.

I guess I don't understand what it's supposed to remind us of other than professional baseball is difficult.

I agree that we're guessing, that's why it'd be nice to see him play every day to find out. I also agree that Ramon could be a good trade candidate.

Always Red
07-08-2009, 12:02 PM
I guess I don't understand what it's supposed to remind us of other than professional baseball is difficult.



No, just a reminder of all of the guys who looked good after 200 at bats at the age of 28 and did not continue to develop into full time MLB starters.

History is against Hanigan.

Again, I am not anti-Ryan Hanigan. I like Ryan and hope he can do the job full time. How can anyone root against this guy- he wasn't even drafted!

But if I am running this team, I do not go into next year with him and Corky Miller as my catchers. I try to sign Hernandez to a lesser deal than he has now, and continue to play both of them- it's working great so far, why mess up a good thing for an unknown? Now, if Hernandez won't take a pay cut, then that's a different matter.

Catching has been a sore spot on this team ever since LaRue took a nosedive. It's finally been (relatively) straightened out. Why change things if we don;t have to?

I'd rather address SS, LF, 3B, SP ....

TheNext44
07-08-2009, 12:39 PM
call it after the allstar break, which would be easier to follow.

Sounds good!

Just to be clear, I like Hanigan a lot and think he should be starting most games next year, or this year if Hernandez is traded or injured. I just think that Hernadez will bounce back to post around a .750 OPS the rest of the way, and Hanigan will falter a little to do the same.