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View Full Version : In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt



kfm
07-09-2009, 08:03 PM
I read this on John Fay's blog and thought it was interesting. I also knew it would cause some discussion on this board. It is long. While I don't believe that Dusty Bob or Walt are the greatest at what they do, I do believe that much, not all, of the criticsm that they receive from Reds' fan is over the top.

I have had enough…

There are 662 managers on the baseball reference manager list—662 managers all time
On that list dusty baker is 153rd all time in winning pct.
When that list is limited to qualifiers (320 games/roughly two seasons today) he is 87th in winning pct.—out of 291.
Out of the same 662 managers baker is 32 all time in wins – only 31 guys in 140 years of baseball have more wins than baker.
Baker was:
1993 NL Manager of the Year
1997 NL Manager of the Year
2000 NL Manager of the Year
He won two pennants
His teams have finished 1st or 2nd in 9 of the seasons he’s managed
When he broke in as a player he was 19
He played in 2039 games in 19 years
He has stood in the batter’s box and faced a major league pitcher in a major league game 8021 times
He has stood in the batter’s box in a playoff game 164 times
He batted 321, 320 and 300 in full seasons in the majors
He won a gold glove and two silver sluggers
He knocked in 1013 runs
He played rf, cf, lf, 1b, and dh
He played in 4 NLCS, 1 NLDS, and 3 WS
He had 1981 hits in the regular season, 42 hits in the post season
He had 242 home runs
He had 320 2bs
He had 23 3bs
He stole 137 bases
He walked 762 times
He struck out 926 times
He was an all star twice
He was on a world series champion


And on this blog—
Everday—
--fifty times a day—
a poster— who’s only two qualifications are an internet connection and a keyboard—

says he is stupid
says he is clueless
says he should be fired
says he doesn’t understand baseball
says he is a terrible manager
says the reds will never win with him as the manager


__________________________________________________ _________________________


In 1980, walt jocketty was hired by Charlie finley (the the first team owner/GM to have a championship team destroyed by free agency) as the Director of Minor League Operations and Scouting for the oakland A’s. He
led the overhaul of the minor league system—acquiring and developing the players that made up the core of the team that went to three consecutive world series’. He started with charlie finley, then worked for billy martin and sandy alderson—in ’85 he was promoted to alderson’s right hand man (Director of Baseball Administration).
He left oakland after the third world series in 1990…
In 1994, he was hired by the colorado rockies. He worked as the Assistant General Manager/Player Personnel that year, and the next season the rockies won the wild card.
In late ’94 the cards signed him as their general manager
He hired tony larussa as the cards manager
In his time with st Louis he oversaw:
• 6 National League Central Division championships (1996, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
• two National League Championships (2004 and 2006)
• two world series appearances
• one World Series Championship (2006).
• seven straight winning seasons
• 100+ win seasons in 2004 and 2005.
Jocketty was named the Executive of the Year in MLB twice, in 2000 and 2004.

And after one year on the job in cincinnati—

As usual, fifty times a day, a poster –

--a poster with no qualifications other than a keyboard and an internet connection—

Says:
He is the reason the reds aren’t going to win
That he is a failure
That he is asleep at the switch
That he is clueless
That he is stupid, dumb or worse
That he doesn’t know about economic restraints
That he owes everything to duncan and larussa

__________________________________________________ _________________________


Bob Castellini has a degree from Georgetown University and an MBA from the Wharton School
He has been a minority owner of the reds, orioles, rangers and cards…
He has owned parts of major league baseball teams for over thirty years
In ’06 he led a group of investors – investors with 270 mil dollars – in buying the reds…
He increased payroll by 13 % his first year
He increased that increased payroll by 9% the following year…
And in the face of the worst economy since the great depression he maintained those increases by not cutting payroll

And, of course, even after these nearly half a billion dollars (in purchase and payroll) have been spent—100+ million dollars out of his own pocket –
Posters – many who have said they will not give one dime to this franchise—
And with no other qualification but the ability to type—

Rip the man for:

Being dumb
Being unaware
Being cheap
Not being committed to winning
Supposedly lying to us
Etc, etc…

__________________________________________________ _________________________

These men have been burned in cyber effigy on this blog everyday…
They have had their motives questioned
Their integrity has been challenged
They have been called stupid, and worse
And they have been made the villains in a fantasy world of this blog’s creation


And these men—
These men who have committed a combined 100 years+ to major league baseball—
These men who’s character is not questioned anywhere but on this blog—
These top of their field professionals—

Are entirely disrespected each day—fifty times a day—

By a herd of guys who’s sum total of qualifications, all combined, add up to:
zero years of major league experience
zero years of minor league experience
very little common sense
a keyboard
and an internet connection…
factually, they have only one skill relevant to this exchange—the ability to type…

And after watching this phenomenon over the last 10 months, there are two things I know to be true:

Baker, jocketty and castellini are men of character and achievement

The blog is usually wrong

Kingspoint
07-09-2009, 08:08 PM
Well, that explains why Fay won't question Dusty's lineups, I guess.

I lived in San Francisco and went to those Giants games. Dusty did not deserve to be Manager of the year during any of those years. It was a joke.

Kingspoint
07-09-2009, 08:10 PM
...and yes. The REDS will not win with him as a Manager.

Next year, we'll have so much talent on the team that it's possible we win in spite of him.

Any Manager should be able to take the 2010 REDS to the playoffs.

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2009, 08:31 PM
the reason that whole list is invalid concerning dusty, is all the veteran bolstered clubs he had. he didnt win manager of the year because he deserved it. ask cubs fans if fay knows what hes talking about. this whole corey patterson and willy taveras experiment that is now taking place, after having to go through most the season last year with patterson at lead off is more than enough to disqualify that stuff listed. and whats the point of listing dustys stats as a player? pointless they mean nothing.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-09-2009, 09:24 PM
I don't think Dusty is a bad manager per se. Just bad for THIS team. Why need a young, energetic get in your face type manager to pump up a mostly young team here. If he was with a veteran laden team who need more of a hands of rah rah managers, and with little difference in the lineup makeup, then sure. I think he would be fine. There's plenty of situations where an experienced vet sometimes gets stuck behind the 8 ball and support was dropped. Dusty is the type to build them up and keep them going.

For as young and as small market as this team is though, I don't think he's the manager for us. If he was on a talent laden team and keeping a slumping, but proven hitter in the lineup, that may pay dividends. But here, when we have Wily freakin' Taveras in the lineup and he treats him like Bernie Williams or something - HUGE difference.

Captain Hook
07-09-2009, 10:04 PM
The bottom line in sports is"what have you done for me lately".I'll add to that by saying that not a single one of those accomplishments has helped the Reds one bit.So can someone explain to me why I should care about them.

If anyone decides to take the time to do that maybe you can explain to me the point of this thread as well.Thank you in advance.

DTCromer
07-09-2009, 10:26 PM
I'm curious as to why so many Reds fans don't think Bob is doing a good job after having Uncle Carl Brown.

Mutaman
07-09-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm curious as to why so many Reds fans don't think Bob is doing a good job after having Uncle Carl Brown.

Great question. The only thing I can figure, as a non-Cincinnattian, is that people gave the the Banana Man a pass because he gave a few bucks to local charities. In the meantime he was taking all that revenue sharing money and handing it out to Columbian terrorists. This organization is still trying to clean up the mess he left behind.

steig
07-09-2009, 10:35 PM
If we can't blame Dusty, Jocketty, or Castellini for all the Reds problems over the last 9 years then who are we supposed to blame? Somebody must be at fault so we can justify our loyalty to a such a team :rolleyes:

Captain Hook
07-09-2009, 10:57 PM
I'm really only talking about Dusty.As far as Walt goes I can put but with someone making bad decisions when it takes the outcome to prove its a bad decision.Walt has a very hard job to do and has only been at it for just over a year.He imo still gets a pass.With Dusty, his bad decisions can be seen a mile away before he even makes them.Most of the time your average fan would know better but he will choose to make the decision anyway.That's not excusable.

By the way.I have been very critical of Dusty in the redszone.I have even suggested once or twice that the Reds should consider getting rid of him.But I have never once called him stupid or questioned what kind of man he is.I don't agree with how he manages the team.I probably couldn't do any better and yes I'm just a fan,but that by no means makes it imposible to see that how Dusty does things just don't work unless he has a future juiced up hall of famer/best of all time kind of player or a team built on a 120 million dollar payroll.Dusty's time here will come to a end.Maybe sooner then later and maybe not,but when he is gone I'll wish him well but be glad he is gone.We will never win with him.

sivman17
07-09-2009, 11:08 PM
who cares what he did as a player? in fact, who cares what he has done as a manager before he came here? we all question his decisions and lineups because he makes bogus decisions and lineups. he is not .500 here and until he gets us into the playoffs we have a right to question his abilities as a manager

REDblooded
07-09-2009, 11:35 PM
Don't forget who pays all 3 of the guys that you mentioned.

kfm
07-10-2009, 01:03 AM
the reason that whole list is invalid concerning dusty, is all the veteran bolstered clubs he had. he didnt win manager of the year because he deserved it. ask cubs fans if fay knows what hes talking about. this whole corey patterson and willy taveras experiment that is now taking place, after having to go through most the season last year with patterson at lead off is more than enough to disqualify that stuff listed. and whats the point of listing dustys stats as a player? pointless they mean nothing.

So if I read you right, his accomplishments are pure luck. And if I read others right we cant win with him but if we do it will be pure luck also. I think Dusty should start buying lottery tickets, must be the luckiest man alive. I can't wait til the Reds hire that manager who wins with bad players. Let me think of who that could be Sparky, La Russa, Torre, Leyland, Pinella oh yeah I guess it might take good players for everyone to win, but that Dusty is one lucky son of a gun.

GIDP
07-10-2009, 01:04 AM
As an owner I think bob is doing pretty well.

FlyerFanatic
07-10-2009, 01:30 AM
So if I read you right, his accomplishments are pure luck. And if I read others right we cant win with him but if we do it will be pure luck also. I think Dusty should start buying lottery tickets, must be the luckiest man alive. I can't wait til the Reds hire that manager who wins with bad players. Let me think of who that could be Sparky, La Russa, Torre, Leyland, Pinella oh yeah I guess it might take good players for everyone to win, but that Dusty is one lucky son of a gun.

his accomplishments dont mean jack in the sense how does him playing in so many games, hitting in so many games, etc..etc equate to being a good manager? how does him breaking into the majors at 19 make him a better manager? its just useless knowledge, it doesnt help to support hes a great manager.

if anything, why didnt fay include his record last season, and also how many games patterson lead off for dusty last season? i mean i guess dusty just knows what hes doing so well that he hasnt had a winning season with the reds and is currently 2 games under .500 this season. but you know, he broke into the majors at 19, that must count for something!

fugowitribe
07-10-2009, 01:35 AM
We can question until we are all blue in the face. The guy has a contender on the field right now in just his second year. We are four games out with the 3rd yongest lineup in baseball (Don't hold me to that stat). He pulls stunts and makes decisions that leave me wondering, but he is close to winning more than he is losing with a team that IMO has more personality problems than we can even fathom. Phillips, Encarnacion, Votto(That DL stint) are a few guys that Baker is trying to deal with, not to mention keep the young guys positive and the old guys happy.....although we may have to break Weathers' heart if he doesn't come to really quickly. I support The Cincinnati Reds no matter who is on the field. I want to see them win every night. It is good to be a fan and not a critic every once in a while.

toledoreds
07-10-2009, 01:44 AM
KFM...great post, you really did your home work. Some times we comment after a fustration loss and its way to easy to say the manager should do this or that after the fact. again great post and keep it up.

Captain Hook
07-10-2009, 02:05 AM
We can question until we are all blue in the face. The guy has a contender on the field right now in just his second year. We are four games out with the 3rd yongest lineup in baseball (Don't hold me to that stat). He pulls stunts and makes decisions that leave me wondering, but he is close to winning more than he is losing with a team that IMO has more personality problems than we can even fathom. Phillips, Encarnacion, Votto(That DL stint) are a few guys that Baker is trying to deal with, not to mention keep the young guys positive and the old guys happy.....although we may have to break Weathers' heart if he doesn't come to really quickly. I support The Cincinnati Reds no matter who is on the field. I want to see them win every night. It is good to be a fan and not a critic every once in a while.

Being a fan of a team and a critic of a team go hand and hand.I think that if you took a look around professional sports you would find that most fan bases of loosing franchises complain about their teams.As far as complaining goes I'd bet that the majority of fans that pull for winning teams complain just about as much.Gripping about how lousy your team is just natural for sports fans.Nobody will every loose their job or have a mental breakdown because of it.Its just water cooler talk and its the same as what goes on in this very forum.I would much rather constantly talk about how great the Reds are and how I just know that this is their year.Because I'm a fan I've picked up on that strong possibility that they are not that good and that this likely isn't going to be their year.So at least my case and I'm sure most others I only criticize because I am a fan.Why would I care if I wasn't?

13 in hall
07-10-2009, 02:47 AM
Just to add my two cents Dusty was dealt a bad hand. I mean sure he pulls a bonehead play sometimes but this team is just not good enough to compensate for all the mental and on field erros they make. Not to mention all the DL time some guys have logged. It could be bad coaching but if you look at the coaching staff they are all holdovers basically from previous failed Managerial staffs.
I hope the next Manager can pick his own coaches and staff thus cleaning it all out and starting from scratch.

As for Walt well he deals with the payroll he is allowed.
Yeah a big blunder like Tavares, but I am happy he has not dealt the farm away for some smokescreen quick fix that sets the organization back even further.

Now Bob and Co. they seem to be a first class organization and do everything in a first class way. However they need to quit kidding themselves and toying with the fans. Either dig deep into the wallet and spend 100 million on payroll and go get players that are real difference makers or simply go young with 2011 as your target date. They are hoping to catch lighning in a bottle by bringing in marginal players Nix, Gomes, Harriston, Tavares, etc. and hoping that these guys will have career years in a Reds uniform.
I doubt they add substantial payroll so just go young tell the fans this and move forward because this halfway has not worked for far too long. They need to use Florida and Tampa as there pattern. Bring up all the kids you think will help and see who can and cannot play at the the Major
League level. Heisey, Stubbs, Frazier, Cozart, Alonso, Valakia, and the rest. Get your teeth kicked in then use those high draft choices to futher the process. This is the only way this organization will contend any time soon. Either spend or be patient with a youth movement this is my only gripe with Bob and Co.

gilpdawg
07-10-2009, 05:20 AM
Most of the criticisms of Dusty are valid. Jocketty not so much. Thing about Jocketty is, everybody said "why didn't he sign this guy, or that guy, or make that trade, or this trade." It's not that simple. This isn't a fantasy league. You have to have willing trade partners and free agents have to want to come here.

The trade market is down right now because most teams still think they are in contention. There just ain't going to be a lot of movement until the deadline. Maybe not a lot even then, like some previous years.

Should Walt have traded Homer for Dye? If Homer continues to develop, then heck no. Dye wouldn't have put this team over the top anyway.

Should we have thrown money at Pat Burrell? He of the .668 OPS in 2009? Nah. People were clamoring for that one too. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.

Everybody should know most of the guys on this year's team are patches until some other things can be done or guys on the farm get ready. The only thing I can think of that is really a mistake was letting Dunn go, and I'm not getting into that because we've discussed this enough here.

Of course, some people wanted to mortgage the future for Bedard a couple of years ago and look how that one worked out. Now people want to do the same for a Coors Field wonder like Matt Holliday? Why don't we just bring Dante Bichette back?

kfm
07-10-2009, 07:36 PM
his accomplishments dont mean jack in the sense how does him playing in so many games, hitting in so many games, etc..etc equate to being a good manager? how does him breaking into the majors at 19 make him a better manager? its just useless knowledge, it doesnt help to support hes a great manager.

if anything, why didnt fay include his record last season, and also how many games patterson lead off for dusty last season? i mean i guess dusty just knows what hes doing so well that he hasnt had a winning season with the reds and is currently 2 games under .500 this season. but you know, he broke into the majors at 19, that must count for something!

It is not really relevant to the type of manager it is, just useful in the sense that he has extensive knowledge of baseball that goes back to being in the bigs since he was 19 years old. Interesting that you chose to ignore everything about his managerial record and focus on this particular issue, but I guess that was the easiest argument to make.

kfm
07-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Being a fan of a team and a critic of a team go hand and hand.I think that if you took a look around professional sports you would find that most fan bases of loosing franchises complain about their teams.As far as complaining goes I'd bet that the majority of fans that pull for winning teams complain just about as much.Gripping about how lousy your team is just natural for sports fans.Nobody will every loose their job or have a mental breakdown because of it.Its just water cooler talk and its the same as what goes on in this very forum.I would much rather constantly talk about how great the Reds are and how I just know that this is their year.Because I'm a fan I've picked up on that strong possibility that they are not that good and that this likely isn't going to be their year.So at least my case and I'm sure most others I only criticize because I am a fan.Why would I care if I wasn't?

Nice post captain!

FlyerFanatic
07-10-2009, 07:51 PM
It is not really relevant to the type of manager it is, just useful in the sense that he has extensive knowledge of baseball that goes back to being in the bigs since he was 19 years old. Interesting that you chose to ignore everything about his managerial record and focus on this particular issue, but I guess that was the easiest argument to make.

i'm making a point, most of that list is pointless, its huge long list to make it the article look better, when none of it really matters. i could also care less what his record is managerial, because as i stated above, his teams were veteran laden and spent time with one of the best hitters ever on his team. if fay wanted to make it more relevant why not post his record last season, and where the reds currently stand, thats more useful to reds fans than working with the giants and cubs

Mutaman
07-10-2009, 07:57 PM
"Yawn....... bigger problems than Dusty, much bigger"

west of You
ORG

Kingspoint
07-10-2009, 08:37 PM
I'm curious as to why so many Reds fans don't think Bob is doing a good job after having Uncle Carl Brown.

It's a night-and-day difference.

TheAnswer
07-10-2009, 10:28 PM
his accomplishments dont mean jack in the sense how does him playing in so many games, hitting in so many games, etc..etc equate to being a good manager? how does him breaking into the majors at 19 make him a better manager? its just useless knowledge, it doesnt help to support hes a great manager.

if anything, why didnt fay include his record last season, and also how many games patterson lead off for dusty last season? i mean i guess dusty just knows what hes doing so well that he hasnt had a winning season with the reds and is currently 2 games under .500 this season. but you know, he broke into the majors at 19, that must count for something!

Expecting Dusty to win with what the Reds have provided him would be like expecting an engineer to construct a functional bridge out of toothpicks and glue. A manager is like a quarterback, they get too much credit and too much blame. Dusty is fine.

mroby85
07-10-2009, 10:29 PM
Expecting Dusty to win with what the Reds have provided him would be like expecting an engineer to construct a functional bridge out of toothpicks and glue. A manager is like a quarterback, they get too much credit and too much blame. Dusty is fine.

That is TheAnswer!

Kingspoint
07-10-2009, 10:36 PM
Expecting Dusty to win with what the Reds have provided him would be like expecting an engineer to construct a functional bridge out of toothpicks and glue.

What a low value you place on the talent of this team.

Most of us thought the pitching staff was exceptional going into the season, and was good enough to keep this team at .500, whatever the Offense does.

TheAnswer
07-10-2009, 10:42 PM
What a low value you place on the talent of this team.

Most of us thought the pitching staff was exceptional going into the season, and was good enough to keep this team at .500, whatever the Offense does.

I would've agreed with that as well... until I saw this offense. Minus Joey Votto you are hard pressed to find 3 true everyday hitters in this order. Defense wins championships, but only if you can score runs.

Kingspoint
07-10-2009, 10:57 PM
I would've agreed with that as well... until I saw this offense. Minus Joey Votto you are hard pressed to find 3 true everyday hitters in this order. Defense wins championships, but only if you can score runs.

I can live with this lineup we had tonight, as I said before the game. But, too often, Hanigan sits on the bench.

TheAnswer
07-10-2009, 10:59 PM
I can live with this lineup we had tonight, as I said before the game. But, too often, Hanigan sits on the bench.

I think this is our best lineup too, however, I think to be a true contender we need more protection for Votto than BP. BP is an excellent player but isnt a true clean up hitter.

MJA
07-10-2009, 11:16 PM
What a low value you place on the talent of this team.

Most of us thought the pitching staff was exceptional going into the season, and was good enough to keep this team at .500, whatever the Offense does.

The offense is nearly dead last in the NL for every single offensive category. You just aren't going to win if the pitcher doesn't get run support.

Carolina Red
07-11-2009, 05:37 PM
Great post kfm! I agree 100%

As I've said all along the biggest reason the Reds don't win is all the empty seats at GABP on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesday nights. Catch a Cardinals game on a Monday night and see how many fans are there. If we filled all those seats every night we could have a 120 million payroll and we would contend for the playoffs every year.

CWRed
07-11-2009, 06:19 PM
He bats Bruce 2nd tonight against the toughest lefty in the league. And Gomes 7th. And WT leading off. And when Hanigan does play, he bats him 8th. Oh and Corey Patterson.

It's true...Dusty is an idiot.

kfm
07-11-2009, 06:22 PM
He bats Bruce 2nd tonight against the toughest lefty in the league. And Gomes 7th. And WT leading off. And when Hanigan does play, he bats him 8th. Oh and Corey Patterson.

It's true...Dusty is an idiot.

I agree with you on Corey Patterson and Tavares but below is how lefties fare against Santana this year, I guess this should not be considered.

.267 .316 .567 .882

Captain Hook
07-11-2009, 07:11 PM
I agree with you on Corey Patterson and Tavares but below is how lefties fare against Santana this year, I guess this should not be considered.

.267 .316 .567 .882

I know you like to defend Baker and you do so most of the time by posting some facts and stats to back up your defense.Considering what your trying to do it and where your trying to do I'll give you some credit for not sounding like a idiot to everyone that reads your posts.The thing is,the reason Baker takes so much crap here is that he is nothing like you.He makes his decisions based on gut feelings and 20 year old ideas that most coach's would laugh at.As long as he is still in charge I'll root for Dusty and hope like heck that his decisions work.I still look forward to the day he is gone.

Mark T
07-11-2009, 07:30 PM
I don't want anyone fired, and don't think most people are stupid, surely not the three you mention. I have only one problem with Dusty - he does not put his best lineup on the field, and it hurts the team. You can say what you want about his past accolades, but can you question our intelligence about what we see on the field? For some unknown reason,maybe even paternal, he seems to adopt one person each year and give him more chances and turn a blind eye to his failures.

Are we allowed to talk about that?

xavr1
07-11-2009, 07:44 PM
i'm making a point, most of that list is pointless, its huge long list to make it the article look better, when none of it really matters. i could also care less what his record is managerial, because as i stated above, his teams were veteran laden and spent time with one of the best hitters ever on his team. if fay wanted to make it more relevant why not post his record last season, and where the reds currently stand, thats more useful to reds fans than working with the giants and cubs

The list wasnt supposed to prove that Dusty is a good manager IMO. It was designed to show the cincinnati.com posters (who seriously are obnoxious) that they dont know as much as they think they do. I can see how it would annoy Fay to read nothing but BS posts everyday calling everyone in the front office idiots and morons and totally unfit for their positions. He was simply saying that, unlike the know-nothing posters, these men have accumulated vast experience in a game that many posters can only pretend to know about.

I think in that regard at least he was dead on.

kfm
07-11-2009, 08:09 PM
I know you like to defend Baker and you do so most of the time by posting some facts and stats to back up your defense.Considering what your trying to do it and where your trying to do I'll give you some credit for not sounding like a idiot to everyone that reads your posts.The thing is,the reason Baker takes so much crap here is that he is nothing like you.He makes his decisions based on gut feelings and 20 year old ideas that most coach's would laugh at.As long as he is still in charge I'll root for Dusty and hope like heck that his decisions work.I still look forward to the day he is gone.

Captain, I do defend Dusty only when I think the attacks are not supported by facts, and I would do the same for you. I have never said Dusty is a great manager or that he would be my pick. I get angry every time I see Tavares in the lineup, and especially where he bats in the lineup and I wish the Reds would have stuck with Pete McKanin. I think he does some things well and other things not so well. He has a track record that says he is a winner and his Reds team is improving. If he were fired tomorrow, I would think it was unfair then I would root like crazy that the next guy does a good job and makes my reds a winner. This team has bigger problems than Dusty baker and I just wish more people on this board would hold players responsible for their performance than catchers and the manager.

kfm
07-11-2009, 08:12 PM
I don't want anyone fired, and don't think most people are stupid, surely not the three you mention. I have only one problem with Dusty - he does not put his best lineup on the field, and it hurts the team. You can say what you want about his past accolades, but can you question our intelligence about what we see on the field? For some unknown reason,maybe even paternal, he seems to adopt one person each year and give him more chances and turn a blind eye to his failures.

Are we allowed to talk about that?

Absolutely, I get angry every time I see Corey Patterson the second in the lineup and especially batting leadoff. I am also mad at Walt for signing a player like this knowing his mangers track record with this type of player. Having said that, Dusty is not the only manager to operate under the foolish belief that Tavares is a leadoff hitter.

Captain Hook
07-11-2009, 08:34 PM
Captain, I do defend Dusty only when I think the attacks are not supported by facts, and I would do the same for you. I have never said Dusty is a great manager or that he would be my pick. I get angry every time I see Tavares in the lineup, and especially where he bats in the lineup and I wish the Reds would have stuck with Pete McKanin. I think he does some things well and other things not so well. He has a track record that says he is a winner and his Reds team is improving. If he were fired tomorrow, I would think it was unfair then I would root like crazy that the next guy does a good job and makes my reds a winner. This team has bigger problems than Dusty baker and I just wish more people on this board would hold players responsible for their performance than catchers and the manager.

I agree that there should be equal blame when things go wrong.Players get paid to preform and Dusty gets paid to manage.When players do not play well and the manager is doing everything he can he will still get the blame.While that is not completely fair the manager is responsible for for how the players preform. While this is partially the case with the Reds,I still feel a better manager would have this team in a better place right now.You've said it yourself that Baker frustrates even the most supportive fan.

On the other side of the coin is the team full of guys that play very well.They win close games and do all the little things that it takes to be a playoff team.This makes even the worse manager look like he knows what he's doing.When people like to talk about Dusty's track record I could easily argue that there was a lot of that going on.

kfm
07-11-2009, 08:44 PM
I agree that there should be equal blame when things go wrong.Players get paid to preform and Dusty gets paid to manage.When players do not play well and the manager is doing everything he can he will still get the blame.While that is not completely fair the manager is responsible for for how the players preform. While this is partially the case with the Reds,I still feel a better manager would have this team in a better place right now.You've said it yourself that Baker frustrates even the most supportive fan.

On the other side of the coin is the team full of guys that play very well.They win close games and do all the little things that it takes to be a playoff team.This makes even the worse manager look like he knows what he's doing.When people like to talk about Dusty's track record I could easily argue that there was a lot of that going on.

I agree that a better manager would have this team in a better position. There is very little discussion on this board about the actual players. That is one reason that I like the minor league forum, it seems the only place where people actually talk about the players. I look at this team and I see problems that existed before Dusty or Walt or Bob got involved. I see players who lack fundamentals but have talent and I see about the worst offense I can ever remember as a Reds' fan. I see several young and talented players a very good but young pitching staff, and a team that has a bunch of guys getting a bunch of at-bats who should be bench players. I also see a team that if some guys develop could be very good very soon. I see for the first time in a long time a team that plays hard and never seems to give up and I do attribute that to the manager.

Kingspoint
07-11-2009, 10:21 PM
He bats Bruce 2nd tonight against the toughest lefty in the league. And Gomes 7th. And WT leading off. And when Hanigan does play, he bats him 8th. Oh and Corey Patterson.

It's true...Dusty is an idiot.

That's why we don't score enough runs.

kfm
07-11-2009, 11:26 PM
That's why we don't score enough runs.

You are not really arguing that we lost to Santana because Johnny Gomes was not batting high enough in the batting order are you?

DTCromer
07-12-2009, 11:49 AM
Expecting Dusty to win with what the Reds have provided him would be like expecting an engineer to construct a functional bridge out of toothpicks and glue. A manager is like a quarterback, they get too much credit and too much blame. Dusty is fine.

Dusty's fine. . . he's just not a good fit for this team.

CesarGeronimo
07-12-2009, 02:53 PM
You are not really arguing that we lost to Santana because Johnny Gomes was not batting high enough in the batting order are you?

I would like the Reds' manager to make good decisions even if they are not decisions that necessarily win or lose games. Dusty, on an everyday basis, makes decisions that are obviously bad ones - like today having Taveras play centerfield instead of Dickerson, who's obviously a better defender at that position. Some of you guys can keep defending him and come up with all of these rationalizations, but I'm not buying it.

GIDP
07-12-2009, 03:27 PM
Im pretty sure Dickerson could play RF and CF combined better than Willy could. He almost caught a ball today behind 2nd base that Willy for some reason jogged to after he too half an hour to figure out if it was a pop up or something.

Kingspoint
07-12-2009, 07:04 PM
You are not really arguing that we lost to Santana because Johnny Gomes was not batting high enough in the batting order are you?
Of course, not. I was agreeing to the theme of his post, not the specifics.

kfm
07-12-2009, 11:22 PM
Of course, not. I was agreeing to the theme of his post, not the specifics.

Ok, I did not think so, while I don't always agree with you, you do tend to make points that are supported by some factual basis. THat is why I was surprised by your post, but you clarified your point and I understand where you are coming from.

markymark69
07-13-2009, 02:39 PM
who cares what he did as a player? in fact, who cares what he has done as a manager before he came here? we all question his decisions and lineups because he makes bogus decisions and lineups. he is not .500 here and until he gets us into the playoffs we have a right to question his abilities as a manager


It's called a track record. It sounds you are like many on here who want it both ways. It's not okay to talk about what Dusty did in the past, but its okay to say we need this player because he has done this or that or we shouldn't have gotten him because he has done this or that.

Make up your mind.

And besides, talent does has something to do with the success of a manager. Sparky was excellent, but has some terrible teams in Detroit. Lou is excellent but had some pitiful teams in Tampa Bay and he ain't setting the world on fire with the Cubs this year. Dusty can only play the players that he has and let's not make him more than what he is. He's only the manager and I don't believe that he has a great deal of input in putting the team together, but he use what he has.

Oh, by the way, I don't think we would have that different of a record if Sparky or Lou were currently sitting in the dugout.

markymark69
07-13-2009, 02:42 PM
If we can't blame Dusty, Jocketty, or Castellini for all the Reds problems over the last 9 years then who are we supposed to blame? Somebody must be at fault so we can justify our loyalty to a such a team :rolleyes:

If Dusty, Jocketty and Bob had been here the lasy nine years you could, but they haven't been. This is only year two of all three of them running the ship.

markymark69
07-13-2009, 02:49 PM
We can question until we are all blue in the face. The guy has a contender on the field right now in just his second year. We are four games out with the 3rd yongest lineup in baseball (Don't hold me to that stat). He pulls stunts and makes decisions that leave me wondering, but he is close to winning more than he is losing with a team that IMO has more personality problems than we can even fathom. Phillips, Encarnacion, Votto(That DL stint) are a few guys that Baker is trying to deal with, not to mention keep the young guys positive and the old guys happy.....although we may have to break Weathers' heart if he doesn't come to really quickly. I support The Cincinnati Reds no matter who is on the field. I want to see them win every night. It is good to be a fan and not a critic every once in a while.

Not to mention that one of his best pitchers (Volquez) has missed most of the year. Four starters (Votto, Encarnacion, Gonzo, Bruce) have missed or will miss a significant chunk of the season and his two highest priced pitchers (Harang, Arroyo) have produced no where near what they were expected to.

And as far as Taveras, he doesn't really have a choice, with his contract (of which Dusty did not sign him to) he's going to play. Ownership would not permit that much money to just sit there. Whether it should or not.

FlyerFanatic
07-13-2009, 02:56 PM
And as far as Taveras, he doesn't really have a choice, with his contract (of which Dusty did not sign him to) he's going to play. Ownership would not permit that much money to just sit there. Whether it should or not.

doesnt mean he should be leading off. thats all on dusty, why not bat him 8th?

Captain Hook
07-13-2009, 02:56 PM
If Dusty, Jocketty and Bob had been here the lasy nine years you could, but they haven't been. This is only year two of all three of them running the ship.

What does any of that have to do with us being bandwagon fans.

I'm really sorry for going on about this but I'm truly insulted by being called a bandwagon fan.I don't put up with this team sucking every single year just to have someone turn around and call me a bandwagon fan.I don't drive 2 hours 5 or 6 times a year and drop a couple hundred dollars every time just to be called a bandwagon fan.Call me a complainer or a whining crybaby but please don't call me a bandwagon fan.

By the way I'm glad this thread was started so I have something else to complain about other then the Reds.

markymark69
07-13-2009, 02:59 PM
doesnt mean he should be leading off. thats all on dusty, why not bat him 8th?

I would like to see him eighth. But if you play Taveras instead of Dickerson, who leads off? Hairston? Not a whole lot better than Taveras.

markymark69
07-13-2009, 03:02 PM
What does any of that have to do with us being bandwagon fans.

I'm really sorry for going on about this but I'm truly insulted by being called a bandwagon fan.I don't put up with this team sucking every single year just to have someone turn around and call me a bandwagon fan.I don't drive 2 hours 5 or 6 times a year and drop a couple hundred dollars every time just to be called a bandwagon fan.Call me a complainer or a whining crybaby but please don't call me a bandwagon fan.

By the way I'm glad this thread was started so I have something else to complain about other then the Reds.

I never called you a bandwagon fan. I responded to your post on that thread, referring to the constant complaining, not that you were a bandwagon fan.

I'm truly insulted that you said I called you something that I didn't.

flash
07-13-2009, 03:17 PM
What Fay said is true. This is also

1. He finished last 3 times
2. After taking over the Chicago club after a free agent binge he finished first, then guided the team downward to last place.
3. When he was released in San Francisco he was so missed that the team won the West the next year.

Presently,

For those hoping to see Heisey, Stubbs, or Fraizer don't count on it. Dusty has to be forced to play a rookie. Cases in point.

1. Bruce had to have a phenomenal AAA stint combined with the Patterson meltdown to get to the big club.

2. Hanigan although better than either Bako, Valentin, and Ross was sent to AAA last year. It was only after he threaten to win the AAA batting title was he called up. This year he sits behind Hernandez. If Votto hadn't been hurt he would still have less than 100 AB's

3. Dickerson was only called up as a last resort following the Griffey, Dunn trades. To his credit he did well only to have the team go out and get a questionable free agent who is worse in every respect to Dickerson except speed.

4. The Bullpen rotation is this: If the Reds are winning after 6 it is Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero. Herrera may get a short stint. (Remember, if Bray hadn't been injured this rookie would not be on the team.) The only time he uses Manuel, Roenicke and Fisher is in losing causes.

I don't blame Jockety for Taveras. I believe Dusty pushed for him in the same way he pushed for Patterson. Dusty is also incredibly stubborn. bruce should have been benched much sooner than he was and given his history should have been platoonedagainst lefties instead of Dickerson.

I don't believe the Reds will win under Dusty, but he will be gone after next year as will Gonzalez, Hernandez, Arroyo and Taveras. I think Jockerty will be all right. Baker wasn't his choice either, it was K and C's. Jockerty would have warned Castelline off that choice if he had been part of the Reds at that time.

As far as another manager is concerned, I would like Biggio, but seeing as he will replace Cooper next year he won't be availible.

Captain Hook
07-13-2009, 06:29 PM
I never called you a bandwagon fan. I responded to your post on that thread, referring to the constant complaining, not that you were a bandwagon fan.

I'm truly insulted that you said I called you something that I didn't.

Sorry man.I got my threads mixed up.Besides I know you didn't call me a bandwagon fan on the other thread but you seem to side with the guy that did.Didn't mean to include you with that dude that obviously doesn't know what a bandwagon fan is.

Kingspoint
07-13-2009, 07:10 PM
What Fay said is true. This is also

1. He finished last 3 times
2. After taking over the Chicago club after a free agent binge he finished first, then guided the team downward to last place.
3. When he was released in San Francisco he was so missed that the team won the West the next year.

Presently,

For those hoping to see Heisey, Stubbs, or Fraizer don't count on it. Dusty has to be forced to play a rookie. Cases in point.

1. Bruce had to have a phenomenal AAA stint combined with the Patterson meltdown to get to the big club.

2. Hanigan although better than either Bako, Valentin, and Ross was sent to AAA last year. It was only after he threaten to win the AAA batting title was he called up. This year he sits behind Hernandez. If Votto hadn't been hurt he would still have less than 100 AB's

3. Dickerson was only called up as a last resort following the Griffey, Dunn trades. To his credit he did well only to have the team go out and get a questionable free agent who is worse in every respect to Dickerson except speed.

4. The Bullpen rotation is this: If the Reds are winning after 6 it is Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero. Herrera may get a short stint. (Remember, if Bray hadn't been injured this rookie would not be on the team.) The only time he uses Manuel, Roenicke and Fisher is in losing causes.

I don't blame Jockety for Taveras. I believe Dusty pushed for him in the same way he pushed for Patterson. Dusty is also incredibly stubborn. bruce should have been benched much sooner than he was and given his history should have been platoonedagainst lefties instead of Dickerson.

I don't believe the Reds will win under Dusty, but he will be gone after next year as will Gonzalez, Hernandez, Arroyo and Taveras. I think Jockerty will be all right. Baker wasn't his choice either, it was K and C's. Jockerty would have warned Castelline off that choice if he had been part of the Reds at that time.

As far as another manager is concerned, I would like Biggio, but seeing as he will replace Cooper next year he won't be availible.

Don't let facts get in the way of good sense.

Nice post!

kfm
07-13-2009, 09:57 PM
What Fay said is true. This is also

1. He finished last 3 times
2. After taking over the Chicago club after a free agent binge he finished first, then guided the team downward to last place.
3. When he was released in San Francisco he was so missed that the team won the West the next year.

Presently,

For those hoping to see Heisey, Stubbs, or Fraizer don't count on it. Dusty has to be forced to play a rookie. Cases in point.

1. Bruce had to have a phenomenal AAA stint combined with the Patterson meltdown to get to the big club.

2. Hanigan although better than either Bako, Valentin, and Ross was sent to AAA last year. It was only after he threaten to win the AAA batting title was he called up. This year he sits behind Hernandez. If Votto hadn't been hurt he would still have less than 100 AB's

3. Dickerson was only called up as a last resort following the Griffey, Dunn trades. To his credit he did well only to have the team go out and get a questionable free agent who is worse in every respect to Dickerson except speed.

4. The Bullpen rotation is this: If the Reds are winning after 6 it is Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero. Herrera may get a short stint. (Remember, if Bray hadn't been injured this rookie would not be on the team.) The only time he uses Manuel, Roenicke and Fisher is in losing causes.

I don't blame Jockety for Taveras. I believe Dusty pushed for him in the same way he pushed for Patterson. Dusty is also incredibly stubborn. bruce should have been benched much sooner than he was and given his history should have been platoonedagainst lefties instead of Dickerson.

I don't believe the Reds will win under Dusty, but he will be gone after next year as will Gonzalez, Hernandez, Arroyo and Taveras. I think Jockerty will be all right. Baker wasn't his choice either, it was K and C's. Jockerty would have warned Castelline off that choice if he had been part of the Reds at that time.

As far as another manager is concerned, I would like Biggio, but seeing as he will replace Cooper next year he won't be availible.

This is the exact type of post that I read and say to myself are you kidding me. THere are a couple of things on there that you can blame Dusty for, but most of these things have nothing to do with the manager. Some of them that you are blaming Dusty for just because "you know" Dusty had to be behind this, and how do you know. If you know this for a fact state your source. Is Walt Jockety the general manager or is he just simply Dusty's puppet and Dusty makes all personnel decisions and decides who gets sent down, who gets brought up. The hyperbole on this board that get passed as fact and expert analysis as long as it is about someone who is almost universally despised should be insulting to anyone with an objective bone in their body. I get it we all hate Dusty, I am not even crazy about Dusty but find myself defending him because of how over the top some of the criticism is. Are you serious about this post. If all of this is true, then Jockety needs to be fired since he is not doing anything or responsible for anything that any decent GM is responsible for, and Dusty is the single most powerful employee in all of baseball. Well Dusty and Billy Beane that is. I won't even get into all of the cross logic like Dusty wont play Bruce because he hates rookies but he should have benched bruce. You made several good points that are very on point, but you messed it up with a bunch of stuff that is so far not supported by reality that it is hard to take even the legitimate points that were made seriously.

FlyerFanatic
07-13-2009, 10:35 PM
This is the exact type of post that I read and say to myself are you kidding me. THere are a couple of things on there that you can blame Dusty for, but most of these things have nothing to do with the manager. Some of them that you are blaming Dusty for just because "you know" Dusty had to be behind this, and how do you know. If you know this for a fact state your source. Is Walt Jockety the general manager or is he just simply Dusty's puppet and Dusty makes all personnel decisions and decides who gets sent down, who gets brought up. The hyperbole on this board that get passed as fact and expert analysis as long as it is about someone who is almost universally despised should be insulting to anyone with an objective bone in their body. I get it we all hate Dusty, I am not even crazy about Dusty but find myself defending him because of how over the top some of the criticism is. Are you serious about this post. If all of this is true, then Jockety needs to be fired since he is not doing anything or responsible for anything that any decent GM is responsible for, and Dusty is the single most powerful employee in all of baseball. Well Dusty and Billy Beane that is. I won't even get into all of the cross logic like Dusty wont play Bruce because he hates rookies but he should have benched bruce. You made several good points that are very on point, but you messed it up with a bunch of stuff that is so far not supported by reality that it is hard to take even the legitimate points that were made seriously.

i love how you called out this post, and instead of replying to what is wrong in the post with the correct information you just blasted the post.

Kingspoint
07-13-2009, 10:42 PM
I have yet to see one post that supports the title of this thread.

Name one thing that Baker has done that has made this team better than they were projected to be with or without Baker. Their record is exactly where it's supposed to be based on Pythagorean numbers, so where has he helped them?

Don't give me any excuses about injuries to Volquez, EE and Votto. They were small injuries for short periods of the season, except for EE. Every team has had the same amount of injuries, if not much worse, and everyone will get them every season. It's to be expected.

There just isn't any reason to give Baker any more support. I'm still waiting for that one post that supports that there is.

flash
07-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Name something in the post that isn't true. As far as the Bruce situation don't claim that I am misrepresenting the facts by saying it doesn't make any sense. THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT. Baker's moves don't make sense. (I could be wrong here, but wasn't Bruce only called up after Hopper went down. Is Hopper a better player than Bruce?)

Furthurmore, I truly believe that Baker got Jockerty to hire Taveras that same way he got K to hire Patterson. He told him he had to have him and that he could make him better. General Managers usually try to respond positively to a manager's request.

kfm
07-14-2009, 12:31 AM
i love how you called out this post, and instead of replying to what is wrong in the post with the correct information you just blasted the post.

I think you can read it and figure out exactly what I am talking about, but since you are unwilling to do that I will name just a few and repeat some that were in my original response that somehow you were unable to ascertain. I would also like to add that I hope in the future you will ask just as much from people who share your point of view as you do for those who don't. I will eagerly look for such a post from you.

His first set of three I don't have any problem with. I have not researched this but I am assuming, and maybe I should not, that this is actually factual. Although regarding point #3 Rick Pitino was so missed in Kentucky that his team won the national championship the year after he left and Red Auerbach was so missed in Boston that his team won two championships after he left.

Let's move to his presently points.

1. It was Dusty and Dusty's decison alone not to bring Jay Bruce to the bigs after his scorching spring training last year. Does he have any proof that his organization, unlike every other allows the manager and the manager alone to decide who is ready for the big leagues. If this is the case, then it must have been Dusty's decision to bring Bruce up as well right?
2. Where is the general manager. Here he decides it was once again Dusty and Dusty's decision alone to carry three catchers and to make sure Hanigan was not one of them. Once again where is the proof of this and if it was Dusty's decision wasn't Dusty the manager/general manager's decision to bring him up?
3. This is very interesting. Apparently the rest of the organization wanted DIckerson called up and starting before they got rid of Dunn and Griffey. At that point the starting outfield was Dunn, Griffey and Bruce. Who exactly did the rest of the organization want benched so that Dickerson could be called up and play. I presume that they would not want to call up a young player to have him sit on the bench so they must of wanted one of the other three benched so that Dickerson could play. Once again not a shred of proof that this happened, but it passes as fact because it is a critiscm of the great red satan.
4. Now this is probably an accurate statement of the reds bullpen rotation and I am not sure why this is a criticism. Weathers, Rhoades and Cordero have pitched very well for the Reds and I don't undertand how pitching your best relievers in the most crucial spots is a criticism, unless you care more about date of birth than production. Why is it a criticism that if Bray, who is a young pitcher himself, was not injured than Herrera would not have been on the team? Please explain how this prooves anything so if this young pitcher were healthy, this even younger pitcher would not have been on the team is proof that you don't like young players.

5. I named this one specifically, in my previous post but where is there any proof that Walt did not want Wily Tavares on the team. There is not one shread of evidence to support this other than gee I think I like Walt and I know I hate Dusty so let me blame this one on Dusty. Is walt the long time friend of Bob the general manager or is he not the general manager?

6. I also mentioned this one in my earlier post but Bruce who Dusty did not want on the team does not want to play bruce because he is young, but now he chooses not to bench bruce because he is stubborn. What. I thought your point was he does not like young players so when he sticks with a young player he is stubborn. And if he is going to be dumb enough to play this young player that he does not really want to play he should platoon him. The guy who won minor league player on the year and is supposed to be one of the pillars on the comeback of the reds should platoon now. I'm sure this would have set very well with you.

7. This could be very accurate and they may not win under Dusty. The statement I have a problem with is that Jocketty would have warned against Dusty. Again, this is mere speculation passed as fact and Walt will be alright. Almost everything in this post are attacks at Walt Jockety. Either he is a weakling who has no standing in the eyes of the owner, or he is the one making the decisions with input from others in the organization, or he and Dusty are on the exact same page. I don't pretend to know which one it is, but none of these show Walt in a good light.

kfm
07-14-2009, 12:46 AM
I have yet to see one post that supports the title of this thread.

Name one thing that Baker has done that has made this team better than they were projected to be with or without Baker. Their record is exactly where it's supposed to be based on Pythagorean numbers, so where has he helped them?

Don't give me any excuses about injuries to Volquez, EE and Votto. They were small injuries for short periods of the season, except for EE. Every team has had the same amount of injuries, if not much worse, and everyone will get them every season. It's to be expected.

There just isn't any reason to give Baker any more support. I'm still waiting for that one post that supports that there is.

The purpose of the thread was to share the point of view of someone who does not share the point of view of many on this board. It was just to make people think not to convince them of a particular point of view. Perhaps I was being naive in that regard. Having said that I do take issue with your staments that volquez and Votto have only missed short periods of time. I believe they have both missed around 30 games. Granted for Volquez that is only about 6 to 7 starts. Missing Votto devestated this team. Not to say that such an injury would not hurt other teams, but when you are as thin as the reds and have such a small margin for error missing your best player for a month is not an easy thing to get by. Also, I have not researched this but it sounds like you have so can you name the teams who have outperformed precisely where their numbers say they would be. Are you arguing that these are good managers, or are they too just lucky. Finally, if the Reds are right where they should be, doesn't that hurt your argument that Dusty consistently causes them to lose. Shouldn't they be underperforming where the stats say they should be? Let me make this abundantly clear, I am not a supporter of Dusty Baker. I know that on a board where it seems everyone hates Dusty and blames him after a good number of losses, that a person who does not do that and does not hate DUsty must appear to the Dusty haters as his biggest fan. However, what I am truly not a fan of is the over the top ad nauseum attacks that are not supported by any facts and in many cases simply ignore facts. It doesn't matter if you are talking about Dusty or Homer or Edwin or Joey all of whom I have defended on this board. I am not a fan of it and I will never be even if it makes me unpopular or unknowing to some people. Quite frankly, I could care less.

flash
07-14-2009, 01:21 AM
Man oh man, this is so easy.
Red Auerbach retired. He wasn't dismissed because the owner didn't like him.
I may be wrong, but didn't Pitino leave Kentucky for Louisville, something Wildcat fans still haven't forgiven him for?

It is true that no one was clamoring for Dickerson's call-up. He was called up because the Reds needed an outfielder and he did well. Then Dusty wanted Taveras. So Jockerty went and got him.

Dusty also wanted Bako because Bako had played for him before. Ross was under contract and maybe Valentin was too so Hanigan was the man out.

Time and time again Dusty belittled Herrera's performance in Spring training saying that it was only a matter of time before hitters figured him out. (Dusty may be right on this one. Time will tell as the season wears on.)

The Bruce situation is what it is. It doesn't make sense. Proves my point.

But Dusty doesn't like rookies. The reason Bruce, Bako, played and Bray would have is that they had time on the big club. Dusty will not play a rookie unless he has to.

I never said Jockerty didn't like Taveras. He would have been a fool to get him if he did. I don't have proof, but judging from the Bako, Patterson deals the year before I think Dusty ask for him and Jockerty complied. If Taveras doesn't improve dramatically, it will be one of the reasons Baker is fired.

I also believe it is the manager's final say on who makes the roster coming out of Spring training. The GM puts the pool of players on the table, but the manager has the final say unless it is a high contract player. In the case of Stanton Dusty was probably right to have him dismissed.

Captain Hook
07-14-2009, 01:37 AM
As far as the influence Baker has and hasn't had with some of the off field decisions there is little proof that can be thrown out there.But hear are a few of my opinions and ideas of how some of the things being discussed and a couple other things went down.

1.CP was brought here because Dusty wanted him.Krivsky I believe gave in and granted his newly hired manager the piece of the puzzle that Baker felt he needed.I don't believe this is a fact but I'm pretty sure this is what happened.

2.CP was sent down by the newly appointed GM Walt Jocketty because of performance related issue's.I don't believe Baker had a say in this because CP was still starting most of the time.CP's demotion was followed by Bruce's call up.

3.Its hard to say if it was Dusty's intention or if he was told to play Bruce every night.I believe that considering how Bruce was hitting in AAA at the time he was brought up to play every night.Since I believe that it was Jocketty decision to bring him up I also believe that it was his decision that Bruce plays.

4.While I do blame Jocketty for the Taveras signing I believe that Baker had his hand in it as well.It certainly wasn't Baker's call but he was happy as a pig in you know what.

5.I believe that Walt is at this point allowing Dusty to hang himself.Jocketty didn't hire Dusty and I can't believe he wants him as his coach.Sure, Jocketty signed Taveras but it isn't his job to make the lineup out every night.I'm pretty sure that Castelline had a big part in hiring Baker and I'm sure Walt would like to show the boss that he is giving Dusty everything he wants to manage this team within the budget that Bob sets.I imagine this off season Walt will make his case to Bob and we will be free of Baker.Of course this is complete speculation.

I really think that we will be looking at a very different team next season.Aside from the pitching we will have a new starting C,SS,3B,CF,LF and possibly more.Some of the pitching might even be moved.Basically if there is a thread anything like this next year Baker will be long gone and Jocketty will be the new whipping boy.

GIDP
07-14-2009, 01:39 AM
In defense of Walt, he didnt hire Dusty.

In defense of Dusty roids arent very popular anymore

Fon Duc Tow
07-14-2009, 03:43 AM
not picking sides here, but threads like this smoke the sterile threads on ORG and I am glad to be here participating.

Thank you all, gents, I love you all in that "man, slap you hard on the back, but we still want to bone the same hottie redhead" kind of way...

Go Reds!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqO1b-5RsAs&NR=1

markymark69
07-14-2009, 10:05 AM
b
Man oh man, this is so easy.
Red Auerbach retired. He wasn't dismissed because the owner didn't like him.
I may be wrong, but didn't Pitino leave Kentucky for Louisville, something Wildcat fans still haven't forgiven him for?

It is true that no one was clamoring for Dickerson's call-up. He was called up because the Reds needed an outfielder and he did well. Then Dusty wanted Taveras. So Jockerty went and got him.

Dusty also wanted Bako because Bako had played for him before. Ross was under contract and maybe Valentin was too so Hanigan was the man out.

Time and time again Dusty belittled Herrera's performance in Spring training saying that it was only a matter of time before hitters figured him out. (Dusty may be right on this one. Time will tell as the season wears on.)

The Bruce situation is what it is. It doesn't make sense. Proves my point.

But Dusty doesn't like rookies. The reason Bruce, Bako, played and Bray would have is that they had time on the big club. Dusty will not play a rookie unless he has to.

I never said Jockerty didn't like Taveras. He would have been a fool to get him if he did. I don't have proof, but judging from the Bako, Patterson deals the year before I think Dusty ask for him and Jockerty complied. If Taveras doesn't improve dramatically, it will be one of the reasons Baker is fired.

I also believe it is the manager's final say on who makes the roster coming out of Spring training. The GM puts the pool of players on the table, but the manager has the final say unless it is a high contract player. In the case of Stanton Dusty was probably right to have him dismissed.

Just to clarify, Pitino came to Louisville only after he went to the Boston Celtics and if I'm not mistaken, Bako and Patterson were signed by Wayne Krivsky, Jocketty didn't take over until the season had already started. Blame Dusty if you want for Bako and Patterson, but Krivsky signed them and not Jocketty. Of course, I'm sure Dusty told Krivsky to sign Patterson for 3.5 million.

Kingspoint
07-14-2009, 10:12 PM
1. It was Dusty and Dusty's decison alone not to bring Jay Bruce to the bigs after his scorching spring training last year. Does he have any proof that his organization, unlike every other allows the manager and the manager alone to decide who is ready for the big leagues. If this is the case, then it must have been Dusty's decision to bring Bruce up as well right?


Every Manager, Coach, and Head Coach, from MLB, the NBA, and the NFL has some decision-making power as to who gets added to the team. It varies from team-to-team the percentage of those players who are added, but with every team, that Manager, Coach, or Head Coach is in on the decision-making process, and his input is considered valuable. Again, how many of those decision-making processes vary from team to team that he's involved with. But, I guarantee you that the prima-donna Baker has a huge say in these decision-making processes and that his opinion is valued very, very highly by Castellini. Castellini has said so, as much, when he hired him, what he thought of Baker.

Kingspoint
07-14-2009, 10:16 PM
b

Of course, I'm sure Dusty told Krivsky to sign Patterson for 3.5 million.

That might be on the g.m., but I would guess that Dusty screwed up the negotiations by calling Patterson and telling him that he's going to "add him", "wants him", whatever. Knowing this, Patterson could ask for a bigger contract, as Krivsky had no leverage.

Jack Burton
07-15-2009, 12:35 PM
Dusty can not be defended at this point, he has to go. Along with the rest of the coaching staff.

kfm
07-17-2009, 09:01 AM
From the Cincy Enquirer, Could it be that Jockety actually is the GM of this team:

As far as bringing up Drew Stubbs from Louisville, general manager Walt Jocketty said he didn’t want to rush the outfielder to the major leagues.


“I saw him play three games last week,” Jocketty said. “I saw that all-star game last night. He’s getting closer. You don’t want to rush a guy. Wait until our people think he’s ready.


“He’s only played Triple-A for three months.”


Jocketty said Stubbs is working on some things, and Triple-A is the place to do that.


“There’s enough pressure in the big leagues,” Jocketty said. “The worst thing you can do is bring a guy here (too soon). There are certain things he is working on. I’m not going to say what they are; that’s his business. But if you bring a guy up when he’s not ready, they’ll exploit his weaknesses. It’s a lot tougher here than in Triple-A.”

Kingspoint
07-17-2009, 07:31 PM
There's no defense of Dusty anymore than there was no defense of Hitler.

kfm
07-17-2009, 10:20 PM
There's no defense of Dusty anymore than there was no defense of Hitler.

You are now comparing Dusty to Hitler? I am assuming this is a bad attempt at humor and in very poor taste.

Kingspoint
07-18-2009, 05:24 PM
You are now comparing Dusty to Hitler? I am assuming this is a bad attempt at humor and in very poor taste.

No. I'm comparing someone's support of Dusty to that of someone supporting Hitler. Unbelievably, both still have supporters who somehow see the evidence before them a little differently.

Kingspoint
07-18-2009, 06:24 PM
One more reason not to defend Dusty.

EE did not score one time out of the 6 times he got himself on base the last two nights (he knocked himself in twice) because Dusty had him so far down in the order (#8 and #6).

It's not like the 8 for 8 was unexpected as he'd hit well (almost .900 OPS) since his return, and he's usually hit once summer arrives, and he's healthy.

And, Hanigan was on base twice yesterday and didn't score either.

So, 8 times Hanigan and EE were on base the last two days and because Dusty put them up in front of the pitcher and Taveras, neither scored a single run and 8 baserunners were wasted.

Dusty, it's not rocket science. Put the guys who get on base the least (Willy T, JHJr) at the bottom of the order and the guys who get on base the most (Hanigan, Dickerson) at the top of the order and the guys with the most power (EE, Votto) in the middle of the order at 3-4-5.

Baker needs to go to Management school.

His grandson could make a better lineup.

CWRed
07-19-2009, 04:39 PM
What Fay said is true. This is also

1. He finished last 3 times
2. After taking over the Chicago club after a free agent binge he finished first, then guided the team downward to last place.
3. When he was released in San Francisco he was so missed that the team won the West the next year.

Presently,

For those hoping to see Heisey, Stubbs, or Fraizer don't count on it. Dusty has to be forced to play a rookie. Cases in point.

1. Bruce had to have a phenomenal AAA stint combined with the Patterson meltdown to get to the big club.

2. Hanigan although better than either Bako, Valentin, and Ross was sent to AAA last year. It was only after he threaten to win the AAA batting title was he called up. This year he sits behind Hernandez. If Votto hadn't been hurt he would still have less than 100 AB's

3. Dickerson was only called up as a last resort following the Griffey, Dunn trades. To his credit he did well only to have the team go out and get a questionable free agent who is worse in every respect to Dickerson except speed.

4. The Bullpen rotation is this: If the Reds are winning after 6 it is Rhodes, Weathers, Cordero. Herrera may get a short stint. (Remember, if Bray hadn't been injured this rookie would not be on the team.) The only time he uses Manuel, Roenicke and Fisher is in losing causes.

I don't blame Jockety for Taveras. I believe Dusty pushed for him in the same way he pushed for Patterson. Dusty is also incredibly stubborn. bruce should have been benched much sooner than he was and given his history should have been platoonedagainst lefties instead of Dickerson.

I don't believe the Reds will win under Dusty, but he will be gone after next year as will Gonzalez, Hernandez, Arroyo and Taveras. I think Jockerty will be all right. Baker wasn't his choice either, it was K and C's. Jockerty would have warned Castelline off that choice if he had been part of the Reds at that time.

As far as another manager is concerned, I would like Biggio, but seeing as he will replace Cooper next year he won't be availible.

Beautiful post.

kfm
07-19-2009, 09:11 PM
No. I'm comparing someone's support of Dusty to that of someone supporting Hitler. Unbelievably, both still have supporters who somehow see the evidence before them a little differently.

Comparing supporters of someone who murdered millions of people to someone who simply requries that your criticism of a basball manager actually be something that the manager is responsibe for is ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I am guessing that you are not.

Captain Hook
07-20-2009, 01:18 AM
Comparing supporters of someone who murdered millions of people to someone who simply requries that your criticism of a basball manager actually be something that the manager is responsibe for is ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I am guessing that you are not.

Hitler is a horrible comparison I agree.The thing that your not realizing is that kingspoint isn't comparing Dusty to Hitler.He's only saying that it would be just as bad to agree with the how Hitler ran his ship as it would be to agree with how Baker runs his.A bit over the top I'll agree.I'd stay that about 99% of decent human beings do not agree with Hitler and about 99% do not agree with Baker.The big difference here is that the 1% that agrees with Hitler are a pathetic waste of life while the 1% that agrees with Dusty are either just not paying attention or doesn't know much about baseball.

kfm
07-20-2009, 08:29 AM
Hitler is a horrible comparison I agree.The thing that your not realizing is that kingspoint isn't comparing Dusty to Hitler.He's only saying that it would be just as bad to agree with the how Hitler ran his ship as it would be to agree with how Baker runs his.A bit over the top I'll agree.I'd stay that about 99% of decent human beings do not agree with Hitler and about 99% do not agree with Baker.The big difference here is that the 1% that agrees with Hitler are a pathetic waste of life while the 1% that agrees with Dusty are either just not paying attention or doesn't know much about baseball.

I get what he is saying. He is talking about their supporters and I said that in my post that you quoted. I agree this is over the top and simply disgusting to bring Hitler into a baseball forum. He should be ashamed of himself to make any type of comparison that involves a mass murderer and his supporters who is responsible for the death of millions of people and just about anything else. He posted this after I had the audacity to post quotes from Walt himself talking about bringing people up when they are ready and that after Walt saw stubbs in person he does not think he is ready. I guess facts like that make him so angry because he cannot blame the manager for what everyone knows is the GM's responsibility. This thread just needs to be closed. I am quickly moving from simply disagreeing with some people over something as uninmportant in the grand scheme of things as to what is a GM's responsibilities to losing respect for people as people.