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Ltlabner
07-10-2009, 04:21 PM
Willy Taveras made a long run, but got too close to the wall when the ball skipped off the padding and got past him. Right fielder Chris Dickerson wasn't near the play, and that allowed the ball to roll along the warning track to right field. Utley rounded the bases and came home standing up for an easy inside-the-park home run.

"Somebody was spectating and not backing up," Baker said. "When that ball is hit out there, everybody has got to move. You could see when it caromed, it would be an inside-the-parker. No, you can't make mistakes like that."

From here (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090709&content_id=5790502&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

I only got to hear the game last night and didn't see any of it. So maybe CDick was completely asleep at the switch. For those who saw the game, was Dickerson just out there picking daisys as Dusty asserts?

But here's the part I don't get. Dusty, known for protecting his players, blatantly throws Dickerson under the bus here. Yet there's not a peep from The Dusty about Willy misplaying the ball in the first place :confused:

Maybe Dickerson responds well to public chastisement so Dusty is using it as a motivating tool, but it strikes me as very odd that he would dis Dickerson but make no mention of Wee-Willy whatsoever.

Dickerson had a responsibility to know the weird wall layout, but Willy didn't?

Here's (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5498489&c_id=phi) video of the play:

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2009, 04:24 PM
gotta gree with you on this one. from the angle they showed the play...it was hard to tell where dickerson was exactly.

could he have maybe positioned himself better? pretty good chance of that. but willy's route to the ball was horrible. but as bad as his route was...i don't know that it was really anyone's fault. it just took a really funny hop and bounce. it happens. gravity gets in the way sometimes.

traderumor
07-10-2009, 04:29 PM
Maybe Dusty figured RZ could handle any flogging of WT that needed to be done, but that Dickerson would be given a free pass, so he would have to handle that one.

OnBaseMachine
07-10-2009, 04:31 PM
The blame should go on Taveras. Did he really think he could jump 20 feet in the air and catch that ball? He did the same thing on Tuesday night on a ball hit by Ruiz. It's amazing that a major league centerfielder can take such horrible routes as Taveras does. Dickerson may not have backed him up (I don't know), but they wouldn't have been in that situation if Taveras had played the ball off the wall correctly.

Homer Bailey
07-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Thats what we called Dustification.

TheNext44
07-10-2009, 04:32 PM
From here (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090709&content_id=5790502&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

I only got to hear the game last night and didn't see any of it. So maybe CDick was completely asleep at the switch. For those who saw the game, was Dickerson just out there picking daisys as Dusty asserts?

But here's the part I don't get. Dusty, known for protecting his players blatantly throws Dickerson under the bus here. Yet there's not a peep from The Dusty about Willy misplaying the ball in the first place :confused:

Maybe Dickerson responds well to public chastisement so Dusty is using it as a tool, but it strikes me as very odd that he would dis Dickerson but make no mention of Wee-Willy whatsoever.

Dickerson had a responsibility to know the weird wall layout, but Willy didn't?

Here's (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5498489&c_id=phi) video of the play:


My take is that Taveras did something stupid, took a bad route to the ball, again, and should have laid back and played it off the wall.

Dickerson, on the other hand, didn't do his job. Outfielders always back each other up, are always in motion. Dickerson didn't need to know anything about the where the ball would land up, he just needed to be in position in case it got past Taveras, that's his job and he needs to do it on every play. No skill is required, just hustle.

Dickerson was caught sleeping, which I guess Dusty considers something to call a player out on, while Taveras just made a bad play.

Homer Bailey
07-10-2009, 04:36 PM
Dickerson should have been running towards centerfield, as there is no way he could predict that ball would kick dead right like it did (from his angle). Even if he was where he was supposed to be, he would have been in no position to make that play. 100% of the blame goes on Willy for standing 2 feet from the wall waiting for it to bounce off the wall. He is completely clueless out there in center field. At least Patterson could play centerfield.

edabbs44
07-10-2009, 04:38 PM
My take is that Taveras did something stupid, took a bad route to the ball, again, and should have laid back and played it off the wall.

Dickerson, on the other hand, didn't do his job. Outfielders always back each other up, are always in motion. Dickerson didn't need to know anything about the where the ball would land up, he just needed to be in position in case it got past Taveras, that's his job and he needs to do it on every play. No skill is required, just hustle.

Dickerson was caught sleeping, which I guess Dusty considers something to call a player out on, while Taveras just made a bad play.

That's my guess as well. Kind of like where you don't call out a guy for popping up but you would say something if he popped up and didn't run it out.

IslandRed
07-10-2009, 04:38 PM
Nothing really unusual there. Managers have always been tougher on errors of omission, as opposed to errors of commission. Notice that he also called out Roenicke for being late breaking to the bag on the would-be double-play ball that would have gotten us out of the fifth still ahead 6-5.

dougdirt
07-10-2009, 04:44 PM
Dusty being Dusty. Young player bad. Older player not. (I know Dickerson and Taveras are close in age, but I mean more in MLB experience)

flyer85
07-10-2009, 04:48 PM
Buck Showalter (on BBTN on Tuesday IIRC) used Willy T as an example of what not to do when chasing a flyball that you know you can't catch. Willy T on that play did the exact same thing, he got to close to the wall and thus was not able top play the carom. Showalter pointed out as OF has to be able to recognize he can't catch it and then position properly to play the carom ... not just run blindly and end up in a position where the carom cannot be played (that does seem to be something Willy T does excel at)

Nasty_Boy
07-10-2009, 05:01 PM
Willy played some terrible defense in the Philly series... It's amazing to me that Dusty can continually handicap this team with Taveras defense and utter suckitude at the top of the lineup.

I remember being ticked off when Taveras misplayed Ruiz triple. I thought that maybe I was just being too harsh and he really just got a bad break... I then see Showalter's piece of BBTN and his play last night and I just shake my head that Dusty can rationalize playing this guy on a nightly basis.

TheNext44
07-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Dickerson should have been running towards centerfield, as there is no way he could predict that ball would kick dead right like it did (from his angle). Even if he was where he was supposed to be, he would have been in no position to make that play. 100% of the blame goes on Willy for standing 2 feet from the wall waiting for it to bounce off the wall. He is completely clueless out there in center field. At least Patterson could play centerfield.

I don't think anyone, including Dusty thinks Taveras did anything less than butcher that play.

But Dickerson was no where near the play. He did not run towards centerfield to back it up, he stayed in right and watched it until it was too late.

That his what Dusty was calling him out on. He wasn't saying that he should have or could have made the play, just that he "was spectating and not backing up." Even if Taveras made the play, Dickerson was wrong for not backing it up.

Scrap Irony
07-10-2009, 05:46 PM
My old baseball coach would have gotten seriously hostile at Dickerson for that bonehead. Taveras tried (if horribly). Dickerson didn't. You get after the guy that didn't try.

Dickerson didn't.

Shrug.

It does seem as if many Reds lately have had trouble with a lack of hustle. Just from the Philadelphia series, Phillips, Nix, Dickerson-- there may be more, but that's just in the three games in the City of Brotherly Love.

traderumor
07-10-2009, 06:16 PM
See, Dusty knew he could count on RZ ;)

osuceltic
07-10-2009, 06:26 PM
My old baseball coach would have gotten seriously hostile at Dickerson for that bonehead. Taveras tried (if horribly). Dickerson didn't. You get after the guy that didn't try.

Dickerson didn't.

Shrug.

It does seem as if many Reds lately have had trouble with a lack of hustle. Just from the Philadelphia series, Phillips, Nix, Dickerson-- there may be more, but that's just in the three games in the City of Brotherly Love.

Agree on all counts. Dusty gets hot over players not doing their jobs as professionals. Backing up plays, covering first on balls hit to the right side, etc. It's not young player/old player because of the age difference. It just happens to seem that way because we have so many young players who make those kinds of mistakes.

It seems to be a blind spot in our development plan. Unfortunately, it has become unheard of to expect big-league players to take regular infield practice during the season. But there is no excuse at the minor league level. Those guys should be making those kinds of plays in their sleep by the time they get to Cincinnati. Dickerson and Roenicke have played plenty of minor league games, so they especially have no excuses.

I agree and empathize with Dusty. These guys are professionals and allegedly the best in the world at what they do. You can live with physical errors, batting slumps and hanging breaking balls. Those things happen. But when a guy at this level makes a mental error or shows a lack of effort that costs you a game, it's tough to forgive.

CTA513
07-10-2009, 08:37 PM
Dickerson should have done a better job backing him up and Taveras should do a better job playing balls off the walls.

Ruiz had a triple a few days earlier because the ball bounced off the wall and past Taveras.

kpresidente
07-11-2009, 01:13 PM
But here's the part I don't get. Dusty, known for protecting his players, blatantly throws Dickerson under the bus here. Yet there's not a peep from The Dusty about Willy misplaying the ball in the first place :confused:

Let me help. Dickerson was being lazy, Willie T just misplayed the ball. Big difference. Any hobo off the street can back up the play.

mth123
07-11-2009, 02:16 PM
Let me help. Dickerson was being lazy, Willie T just misplayed the ball. Big difference. Any hobo off the street can back up the play.

I'm a Dickerson fan and not a Willy booster, but I see nothing wrong with calling a player out for dogging it or daydreaming (and one or the other would seem to be the case on the play in question). Conversely, I think it would be bad form to call out a player for making a physical error.

IMO, Willy is a wretched defensive player in CF. The more I see the worse I think he is, and his failures repeatedly to break correctly on the ball is hurting the team, but that is not the type of failure that a Manager should go public with. Dickerson is a better player, but if he's going to be picking his toes when he should be backing up the play, then he should be called out publicly.

IMO Dusty handled this correctly. I do criticize him for running Willy back out there. When he and Dickerson are in the line-up at the same time (a poor managerial choice in and of itself IMO), Dickerson should be in CF.

GAC
07-11-2009, 02:21 PM
Maybe the reason CDick was caught off guard was because he was simply standing in bewilderment at CFer Taveras and asking himself "Where in the heck is that guy going?" ;)

I watched the game. And as I saw WT go back, and get himself all turned around, on the ball, I knew it was going to be trouble (for him).

His defense is not as bad as his offense though. But he's trying to make up for lost time.

Tony Cloninger
07-11-2009, 03:31 PM
Mike cameron did the same thing last night versus Los Angeles.... so i guess guys who run fast think they can catch everything?

Ravenlord
07-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Mike cameron did the same thing last night versus Los Angeles.... so i guess guys who run fast think they can catch everything?

that or they think they can make the jump for it. Cameron does it successfully on occasion. Tavares, i don't know anything about his jump skills.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 01:08 PM
A THOUGHT from Manager Dusty Baker on fundamentals: “When you change organizations, sometimes you realize that either fundamentals are not taught or if they are they are not retained. Players should know most of this stuff but I remember (former manager and pitching coach) Roger Craig telling me, ‘Don ‘t ever assume they know it. You need refresher courses. Even doctors need refresher courses.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/07/12/i_think_i_left_my.html

westofyou
07-12-2009, 01:12 PM
A THOUGHT from Manager Dusty Baker on fundamentals: “When you change organizations, sometimes you realize that either fundamentals are not taught or if they are they are not retained. Players should know most of this stuff but I remember (former manager and pitching coach) Roger Craig telling me, ‘Don ‘t ever assume they know it. You need refresher courses. Even doctors need refresher courses.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/07/12/i_think_i_left_my.html

True that is, a common comment concerning that exact thing was often heard in the 70's when guys ended up coming or going from the Dodgers/Reds/O's.

Either lamenting the fact that their new team didn't do it like their old team or the amazement that their new team actually talked about it AND practiced it too.

Matt700wlw
07-12-2009, 01:37 PM
If Dickerson were playing center where he should be, would the ball have been misplayed in the first place?

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 01:55 PM
Taveras cost the Reds another run today with yet another misplay. Wonder if he'll get called out?

VR
07-12-2009, 07:23 PM
If Dickerson were playing center where he should be, would the ball have been misplayed in the first place?

I think so Matt.....CDick is brutal on balls to the wall as well.

Rojo
07-13-2009, 06:06 PM
I do criticize him for running Willy back out there. When he and Dickerson are in the line-up at the same time (a poor managerial choice in and of itself IMO), Dickerson should be in CF.

That's the real issue. Nothing unusual about calling out lazy over bad. But the perception of coddling Tavares taints.

Scrap Irony
07-13-2009, 06:12 PM
Only here does it "taint" anything.

Rojo
07-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Only here does it "taint" anything.

So we're the only ones asking why Tavares is playing center over Dickerson?

CrackerJack
07-13-2009, 08:01 PM
Only here does it "taint" anything.

Yeah I don't know if Dusty is "coddling" Taveras or not ultimately, but I DO suspect he lobbied pretty hard for them to sign Taveras in the off-season, and was granted his wish.

It's just not a good situation and the whole Dusty/Patterson/Taveras mess will be laughed about in the future, I'm guessing.

"Oh man please don't take me back to those days, ugh. The Baker, Patterson, Taveras, Rosales, Nix, McDonald, Janish, Hairston era, no thanks!"

M2
07-13-2009, 08:23 PM
I believe Dusty's comments can be loosely translated as "I know no one asked, but I am NOT playing the wrong guy in center field. I mean, I know it looks like I am, but I not. Really. Why won't you believe me?"