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alexad
07-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Bruce just messed up his hand on an attempt to catch a ball.

alexad
07-11-2009, 08:35 PM
He walked off the field and looked okay, but it did not look good. If the ESPN rumor is true and we get Rolen from the Jays for prospects, then it could mean EE goes to Left Field and Gomes to Right.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 08:35 PM
He shouldn't have been in there in the first place. How do you bench a guy against Jamie Moyer and Fernando Nieve and then bring him back against one of the top pitchers in the game?

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 08:37 PM
He walked off the field and looked okay, but it did not look good. If the ESPN rumor is true and we get Rolen from the Jays for prospects, then it could mean EE goes to Left Field and Gomes to Right.

What ESPN rumor?

alexad
07-11-2009, 08:37 PM
The Saga of being a Reds Fan.

alexad
07-11-2009, 08:39 PM
What ESPN rumor?

ESPN said that the talk Hal was talking about a Rolen for EE and a prospect was not totally true. It was Rolen for others not including EE. I read it on another thread after Hal was on with Marty last night. ESPN said the Reds have scouts in Tampa watching Rolen this weekend.

reds44
07-11-2009, 08:40 PM
It didn't look as bad as he was walking off, but your wrist isn't supposed to bend that way.

edabbs44
07-11-2009, 08:46 PM
He shouldn't have been in there in the first place. How do you bench a guy against Jamie Moyer and Fernando Nieve and then bring him back against one of the top pitchers in the game?

Please don't go there.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 08:51 PM
Please don't go there.

Uh, what are you talking about?

edabbs44
07-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Uh, what are you talking about?

Because it was a freak thing. Alluding to this being Baker's fault for starting him is unfair, to say the least.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 08:56 PM
Because it was a freak thing. Alluding to this being Baker's fault for starting him is unfair, to say the least.

Someone said it was Dusty's fault that Bruce got injured? :confused: Do you mind pointing that post out for me?

edabbs44
07-11-2009, 08:59 PM
Someone said it was Dusty's fault that Bruce got injured? :confused: Do you mind pointing that post out for me?

Saying that he shouldn't have been playing in the first place definitely dances around the subject. If that's not what you meant then we can leave it at that.

membengal
07-11-2009, 09:04 PM
1. He shouldn't have been playing, because asking him to break a slump against Santana is stupid.

2. He got hurt. Maybe. Freak thing. But not the reason to rue his playing.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2009, 09:05 PM
Few players could use 15 days more than Bruce just to get his head together. Could be a blessing in disguise.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 09:09 PM
As I said earlier, I thought playing him tonight was a bad decision. Sitting him against Jamie Moyer and Fernando Nieve and then asking him to come out of a slump against Johan Santana is a bad move, IMO. That said, the injury is obviously a freak injury that can't be blamed on anyone. I don't think anyone's blaming the injury on Dusty. I know I'm not.

Reds Fanatic
07-11-2009, 09:12 PM
The news just came in it is a fractured wrist. Probably out at least 6 weeks.

I(heart)Freel
07-11-2009, 09:12 PM
Fractured wrist. Walt on TV now.

penantboundreds
07-11-2009, 09:12 PM
Curse words.

reds44
07-11-2009, 09:12 PM
And this season is ovah.

Caveat Emperor
07-11-2009, 09:13 PM
Austin Kearns v. 2.0.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 09:13 PM
Unbelievable. The Reds season is probably over after this. The Reds boring offense just got even more boring.

Redmachine2003
07-11-2009, 09:14 PM
Bruce getting hurt might be a blessing after all. Alittle time on the DL and some rehab time to fix his broken swing. oooopppps it turned out to be a more severe injury not such a blessing.

edabbs44
07-11-2009, 09:14 PM
Sucks big time.

reds44
07-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Bruce getting hurt might be a blessing after all. Alittle time on the DL and some rehab time to fix his broken swing. oooopppps it turned out to be a more severe injury not such a blessing.
Yeah....no.

Caveat Emperor
07-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Bruce getting hurt might be a blessing after all. Alittle time on the DL and some rehab time to fix his broken swing. oooopppps it turned out to be a more severe injury not such a blessing.

2 months off plus time to regain strength = no Jay Bruce in the second half of 2009.

Joseph
07-11-2009, 09:16 PM
ah man

Tom Servo
07-11-2009, 09:16 PM
This is all Bob Boone's fault. That idiot.

membengal
07-11-2009, 09:16 PM
Back in March, if you had told us that the Reds would lose EE, Votto, Volquez, and Bruce for significant stretches of the season due to injury, we would have surmised it was not going to be a year that would end in the playoffs.

And so it goes.

Tough luck indeed.

Reds Fanatic
07-11-2009, 09:18 PM
That pretty much ends the year for Bruce. With the time out he would not be back until September. By that time the minor league season is pretty much over so he is not going to be rehabbing there. So other than maybe some games in September this pretty much ends the year.

kaldaniels
07-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Few players could use 15 days more than Bruce just to get his head together. Could be a blessing in disguise.

Exactly what popped in my head...blessing in disguise.

LvJ
07-11-2009, 09:27 PM
Sigh......

alexad
07-11-2009, 09:31 PM
Not good. Let's see what walt can pull out of his magic hat. I still believe.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2009, 09:33 PM
As I said in the game thread, half-jokingly, half-not: it's not like Bruce's bat should be hard to replace either in FA, trade or farm system. What he produced this year sucked, so he can take the time to develop again on a much slower time table.

I had high hopes for the kid, but they just got a lot lower. Still, I like the odds of the Reds' system turning up another Votto in the next couple of seasons. Offense isn't this team's long-term problem.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 09:57 PM
My opinion of Jay Bruce hasn't changed at all. It was unrealistic to expect him to produce at a high level at age 22. There's a long list of stars who struggled early in their career. Look at Adam Jones of the Orioles. He struggled pretty badly over his first 670ish plate appearances and then turned it on this season at age 23. I still have no doubt that Jay Bruce is going to be a star in the majors.

klw
07-11-2009, 09:58 PM
Reds a season jumps the shark.

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/Fonzie_jumps_the_shark%5B4%5D3.png

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 10:05 PM
My hope is Chris Heisey is called up. Heisey is hitting .350/.420/.585 - 1.005 OPS in 323 atbats between Double-A and Triple-A. 24 doubles, 2 triples, 16 home runs, 37 BB/42 K, and 15-for-16 in stolen base attempts.

jojo
07-11-2009, 10:11 PM
This is a crappy turn of events.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:11 PM
I want Todd Frazier.

Yep, I said it.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2009, 10:15 PM
This is a crappy turn of events.

Yep. He's had his struggles at the plate but he was still on pace for 35 homers. Not to mention, his defense has been unbelievable. He's a joy to watch in the field. I guess it's only fitting that he got injured while diving for a ball, which btw, would have been a tremendous catch if not for his wrist bending back.

reds1869
07-11-2009, 10:17 PM
This just gets better and better. Hopefully the FO can turn this into a positive experience the next several months, but I'm not sure how they can to be honest.

edabbs44
07-11-2009, 10:22 PM
Reds GM Walt Jocketty said Drew Stubbs would be the first guy the Reds would look at to replace Jay Bruce.

Stubbs has a .280/.373/.373 line in Triple-A Louisville. He's obviously not going to be a tremendous asset, but does have 33 stolen bases on the season. Knowing Dusty Baker, he'll fall in love with Stubbs, despite Jonny Gomes deserving more playing time. In NL-only leagues, Stubbs is worth a pickup. In mixed, you may want to wait to see how things shake out.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:29 PM
Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson would be one helluva defensive outfield.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:29 PM
That's interesting. But would they put Stubbs in CF? And put Taveras in RF? I would think Stubbs would lose a lot of value being in RF...not that Taveras in RF adds a lot of value to the team.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:31 PM
That's interesting. But would they put Stubbs in CF? And put Taveras in RF? I would think Stubbs would lose a lot of value being in RF...not that Taveras in RF adds a lot of value to the team.
Taveras has a noodle arm, no way he'd play RF. Taveras in LF makes the most sense, but you know Dusty will have his two best defensive outfielders (Dickerson and Stubbs) in the corners.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:33 PM
As I said in the game thread, half-jokingly, half-not: it's not like Bruce's bat should be hard to replace either in FA, trade or farm system. What he produced this year sucked, so he can take the time to develop again on a much slower time table.

I had high hopes for the kid, but they just got a lot lower. Still, I like the odds of the Reds' system turning up another Votto in the next couple of seasons. Offense isn't this team's long-term problem.

The thing that sucks the most is in a season that is all but lost for the Reds...it gives him no chance to further his development during games that don't really mean much.

kaldaniels
07-11-2009, 10:33 PM
Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson would be one helluva defensive outfield.

A little off track, but if you had 3 gold glove caliber OF in terms of the range they could cover, would you be able to configure some sort of unique outfield defense where one of the OF would also be a de facto deep infielder??? Or too crazy of an idea?

Redmachine2003
07-11-2009, 10:34 PM
Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson would be one helluva defensive outfield.
Wow they need a RH hand hitter to drive in runs so they get a guy who can play D. Now we can lose games 5-1 instead of 5-2

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:34 PM
Taveras has a noodle arm, no way he'd play RF. Taveras in LF makes the most sense, but you know Dusty will have his two best defensive outfielders (Dickerson and Stubbs) in the corners.

I agree that LF makes the most sense for Taveras...but I think Dusty prefers someone with a bigger bat out there. Dude is old school.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:38 PM
I agree that LF makes the most sense for Taveras...but I think Dusty prefers someone with a bigger bat out there. Dude is old school.
Well if Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson are all in the same outfield, there really isn't a big bat.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:39 PM
Well if Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson are all in the same outfield, there really isn't a big bat.

Well, I agree...but Dickerson easily has the most power of those 3

Degenerate39
07-11-2009, 10:39 PM
Is it offical that he fractured his wrist?

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:40 PM
Well, I agree...but Dickerson easily has the most power of those 3
So you just put the dude who has the most power in LF? That's flawed logic.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:41 PM
Is it offical that he fractured his wrist?
Yes.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:41 PM
So you just put the dude who has the most power in LF? That's flawed logic.

did i say me? no. i said the dusty. and yes, dusty would do that.

reds44
07-11-2009, 10:42 PM
did i say me? no. i said the dusty. and yes, dusty would do that.
God, I hope not. I think he'll just give CF to Willy because of seniority.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2009, 10:44 PM
God, I hope not. I think he'll just give CF to Willy because of seniority.

that's definitely a possibility too...which is the worst case scenario considering that stubbs' major addition is supposed to be his GG caliber CF defense.

Big Klu
07-11-2009, 10:46 PM
My opinion of Jay Bruce hasn't changed at all. It was unrealistic to expect him to produce at a high level at age 22. There's a long list of stars who struggled early in their career. Look at Adam Jones of the Orioles. He struggled pretty badly over his first 670ish plate appearances and then turned it on this season at age 23. I still have no doubt that Jay Bruce is going to be a star in the majors.

Based on the amount of hype he received from the Reds, the media, and right here at Redszone, I think it was perfectly reasonable to expect Bruce to be a superstar right out of the gate. That's what we were told to expect--"The Next Big Thing". Is it his fault that he was overhyped? No, but the fact is that he has been very disappointing this year. Obviously, he is young enough that he can overcome this poor season and still be a star. But some of the shine is off him right now.

nate
07-11-2009, 10:54 PM
This is all Bob Boone's fault. That idiot.

This is the best post in the thread!

Brutus
07-11-2009, 11:00 PM
Let me preface my comments by saying I'm in no way happy that Jay Bruce fractured his wrist. I'm also not saying I'd not rather have him in the lineup. However...

While it can be said Bruce's defensive contributions will be missed, and perhaps any replacement will be unlikely to produce at a high ceiling as he may have later in the year, for now, the Reds are not losing much offensively. Consider at this time that offensive stalwarts Jerry Hairston, Ramon Hernandez, Nick Hundley, Jack Wilson, Geoff Blum, Chris Coglan and Garrett Anderson are among the players producing at or above the Gross Production Average of Jay Bruce (.238). These are the types of players the Reds could insert right now for Jay Bruce and get the same level of run production that Bruce had been contributing. Even the woeful Austin Kearns is producing (or not producing) at a similar rate to Jay Bruce.

Is this is a tough blow? For potential & defense, absolutely. But in terms of right now? Don't think this changes much. Bruce was an out-machine so far this year. That's no indictment of what I think he'll ultimately be, but this is simply not something that hurts the Reds much given his (lack of) production.

IslandRed
07-11-2009, 11:44 PM
I don't think Walt meant Stubbs is going right into the starting lineup, although I could be wrong. The left field platoon hasn't gone anywhere so I'm guessing Dickerson becomes the starting RF for now with Stubbs backing up both CF and RF.

My secret hope for this turn of events: Stubbs quickly proves himself the speed-and-defense CF Dusty craves and a certain someone hasn't been. But we've debated that endlessly so I'll drop it there.

Also agree that the break (pun not intended) will do Bruce good. I hope the Reds have video of where he was tearing the cover off the ball in AAA and when he first came up, and he can use this time to make the adjustments he needs to make.

Kc61
07-11-2009, 11:50 PM
Too bad about Bruce. His bat won't be missed, though, because he wasn't hitting. Hopefully he heals fully and, in the process, somehow regains his stroke.

It sounds like Stubbs might replace him, but I hope it is Heisey. Stubbs might be a better candidate if CF is vacant, but as a RFer, I'd prefer Heisey's bat. He just is more likely to add offensively.

Either way, both of them, Stubbs and Heisey, should be with the Reds soon and it looks like this next influx from AAA will start soon. The outfield offense has been so bad that these two can only help.

RED VAN HOT
07-12-2009, 12:31 AM
The call certainly should go to Heisey. Heisey was not in the Louisville lineup tonight. This ESPN rumor has me scared. Surely the Reds would not be stupid enough to include Heisey in a trade for Rolen.

HokieRed
07-12-2009, 12:32 AM
I would think Heisey would be near the top of the list of prospects Toronto is interested in.

Will M
07-12-2009, 12:36 AM
Bruce's injury changes nothing about how I feel about Taveras. He is beyond terrible. His continued playing is costing the Reds games.
He should be DFAed.
Nix, Gomes, Dickerson, Heissey & Stubbs are all better options than Taveras.
I would be thrilled if the Reds called up both Stubbs and Heissey and DFAed Taveras depite Bruce's fractured wrist.

SirFelixCat
07-12-2009, 12:45 AM
Few players could use 15 days more than Bruce just to get his head together. Could be a blessing in disguise.

When I saw it happen in real time, I said the exact same thing to my gf. I mean, don't get me wrong, I obviously would never wish for JB to get injured. Just that w/ it happening, it could end up being a good thing, in the end...that's all.

SirFelixCat
07-12-2009, 12:53 AM
Just posted this in the minor league forum:

I think it's pretty obvious that the Reds play short handed tomorrow and will bring one of Stubbs/Heisey up after the break.

I would give a kidney (alright, not true, but how about a really bad haircut?) to have Stubbs or Heisey take over for Willy T and Willy T to never see the field again. Obviously, Dickerson manning RF. *sigh*

klw
07-12-2009, 12:53 AM
The call certainly should go to Heisey. Heisey was not in the Louisville lineup tonight. This ESPN rumor has me scared. Surely the Reds would not be stupid enough to include Heisey in a trade for Rolen.

He has the Futures Game sunday. I am excited to see McDonald back up. Could set the record for fastest board crash of 2009.:D:D:D

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 01:26 AM
Bruce on the injury
Posted by JohnFay at 7/11/2009 10:37 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Jay Bruce was in pretty good spirits after the game for a guy with cast on his arm.

“I’m going to get an MRI to make sure everything is structurally fine,” Bruce said. “Other than that, I’m taking it day by day.”

The injury overshadowed Saturday's loss.

“That’s tough news,” Dusty Baker said. “It seems like we get one guy back and we lose another. We’re being tested.”

The injury happened when Bruce tried to make a diving catch of David Wright’s blooper. Bruce’s momentum carried him toward the infield and his glove bent back.

“I obviously didn’t know it was broken,” he said. “But I knew it wasn’t good. One positive was when I got up it wasn’t really, really swollen.”

He threw the ball in. But he immediately bent over in pain. The crowd gasped when replays were shown on the video boards.

“It hurt bad,” he said. “It’s part of the game. I was trying to make the play.”

He did make the play.

“I caught it,” Bruce said. “Once (my glove) came back forward, I didn’t have any strength in my hand to keep it closed.”

Baker is hoping for good news today.

“I hope Jay’s not hurt too seriously,” Baker said. “I hope that we don’t lose him for the year,” Baker said.

The injury comes one game before the All-Star Break.

Baker said the Reds will try to get a player in for the final game.

“Yeah, we’re operating short enough this year,” Baker said. “I’m not sure who. We don’t have a lot of options.”

The top minor league outfielders – Chris Heisey and Drew Stubbs – are not on the 40-man roster. Heisey, in fact, is in St. Louis to play in today’s Futures Game.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a8587e206-f708-4580-83e5-12af5e161ce6&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

RED VAN HOT
07-12-2009, 01:35 AM
He has the Futures Game sunday. I am excited to see McDonald back up. Could set the record for fastest board crash of 2009.:D:D:D

Thanks. My blood pressure is settling back into the normal range.

Jpup
07-12-2009, 03:10 AM
Baker said the Reds will try to get a player in for the final game.

“Yeah, we’re operating short enough this year,” Baker said. “I’m not sure who. We don’t have a lot of options.”

What about all of that depth we keep hearing about?

LvJ
07-12-2009, 03:30 AM
Watch them call up Darnell McDonald...

Jpup
07-12-2009, 03:42 AM
Watch them call up Darnell McDonald...

He's been hitting well in Louisville(he must get a lot of fastballs). I think it will be Stubbs and he will sit the bench until a trade is made. Stubbs isn't any kind of answer for the Reds current problems unless Tavares is dumped. Stubbs ain't much with the stick and that is the Reds biggest problem. Reds fans aren't going to like him much either, he strikes out a bunch.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2009, 05:11 AM
Re: Stubbs or Heisey -- the call should go to the guy they DON'T think is a long term solution for the team in the OF.

No need to start the service clock on a guy they expect to be part of the team's long term plans.

redsfandan
07-12-2009, 07:34 AM
So bring up the one we won't keep for the future to fill a spot AND showcase him for a possible trade?

mth123
07-12-2009, 07:37 AM
So bring up the one we won't keep for the future to fill a spot AND showcase him for a possible trade?

Kind of Risky. I hope they bring some one in from outside the organization. For now, I'd go with Gomes, Dickerson and Nix in the OF but I know Dusty will have Willy in there somewhere.

redsmetz
07-12-2009, 08:02 AM
Am I correct that Richar is also out for the season and would be a candidate to move to the 60 day DL? If so, then it's a bit of a moot point that neither Heisey or Stubbs are on the 40 man roster. If that's not the case, then they do have the option of placing Bray on the roster and then moving him to the 60 day. He'll pick up 3 months of service time in that case. But I thnk Richar is out for the season (same injury as Castillo whose on the 60 day DL).

redsfandan
07-12-2009, 08:15 AM
Kind of Risky. I hope they bring some one in from outside the organization. For now, I'd go with Gomes, Dickerson and Nix in the OF but I know Dusty will have Willy in there somewhere.
Yeah it's risky. I'm not saying I'd deal one of the two unless it was a really good deal. My post was more in response to Caveat Emperor. I'd prefer to deal the vets like Arroyo/Weathers (expensive players made expendable by younger players).
Since it sounds like Stubbs is most likely to be called up IF he's called up I'd prefer:
LF Nix/Gomes
CF Stubbs/WT
RF Dickerson/Gomes

LoganBuck
07-12-2009, 08:17 AM
Am I correct that Richar is also out for the season and would be a candidate to move to the 60 day DL? If so, then it's a bit of a moot point that neither Heisey or Stubbs are on the 40 man roster. If that's not the case, then they do have the option of placing Bray on the roster and then moving him to the 60 day. He'll pick up 3 months of service time in that case. But I thnk Richar is out for the season (same injury as Castillo whose on the 60 day DL).

Richar has been trying to rehab his shoulder in an attempt to avoid surgery. He has a couple of weeks before they make that decision. That was the story on the Reds pregame a couple days ago. That might change with the current situation.

redsmetz
07-12-2009, 08:49 AM
Kind of Risky. I hope they bring some one in from outside the organization. For now, I'd go with Gomes, Dickerson and Nix in the OF but I know Dusty will have Willy in there somewhere.

I know Dusty's the one writing the line up cards, but I'm guessing that his insertion is a joint Baker/Jockety production. I accepted that they saw something they thought they could rectify, but that clearly hasn't been the case. And I belatedly concur with those who have been saying that his defensive skills (particularly how to play balls) are greatly wanting. I understand it's alot to eat, but I think it's time to admit failure and send him somewhere, whether it's on our tab or not.

Dom Heffner
07-12-2009, 09:52 AM
On Base Machine actually raises a terrific point.

This is not Baker's fault per se, but you have to scratch your head sometimes at his decision making.

Baker just gave him a few days off for a "mental break," and decides to bring him back- to regain his confidence, mind you- against not only Johan Santana but against a the exact-handed pitcher he couldn't hit the side of a barn against.

Bruce has a whopping one of his eighteen homeruns against lefties, slugs an inspirational .280 against them while topping out at a .183 clip BA wise.

Part of Bruce's problem has been that Dusty can't figure out that he can't hit lefties.

If doing poorly affects confidence, why would you play a guy against the type of pitcher that does nothing but gets Bruce out?

Santana has been entirely hittable this year, but Bruce entirely hasn't hit lefties, so he should not have been in there.

And part of making decisions as a manager is thinking, why would I put a guy in the lineup who isn't going to give me anything at all offensively, when there is always, always a chance someone gets hurt?

If injuries are a part of the game and there is always a chance to get hurt, why tempt fate with a guy who has proven he is going to give you nothing against the exact handed pitcher that is going that night?

And as far as Bruce not impressing anyone this year- the guy has been the victim of as much bad luck as Votto has benefitted from good.

With BABIP hovering around .200, a K rate that isn't terrible, an improved walk rate and an awesome slugging percentage of over .500 against righties, he was on the verge of turning things around.

This is not a good injury where there is a bright side to it.

mth123
07-12-2009, 10:24 AM
Yeah it's risky. I'm not saying I'd deal one of the two unless it was a really good deal. My post was more in response to Caveat Emperor. I'd prefer to deal the vets like Arroyo/Weathers (expensive players made expendable by younger players).
Since it sounds like Stubbs is most likely to be called up IF he's called up I'd prefer:
LF Nix/Gomes
CF Stubbs/WT
RF Dickerson/Gomes

For me the risky part is calling either of them up now. Even if the team is going to dump vets for youth, one of these guys is likely going to be a significant part of a package sent for other need areas. I don't risk exposing either of them in 2009 and having the value drop if they fail. I'd go with a vet until a deal is made and then commit to the other with a regular role.

11larkin11
07-12-2009, 10:41 AM
I know a lot of people don't think Stubbs would bring a lot of offense, but I think you could see a significant upgrade from having Dickerson and Stubbs and their OBPs at the top of the lineup than when we had Taveras-Hairston. Runners on for Votto-Phillips-Nix/Gomes-Edwin is a good thing. Plus, Stubbs is everything Taveras wasn't in CF and the basepaths. Of course, I'm not expecting Stubbs to play much.

redsfandan
07-12-2009, 10:45 AM
For me the risky part is calling either of them up now. Even if the team is going to dump vets for youth, one of these guys is likely going to be a significant part of a package sent for other need areas. I don't risk exposing either of them in 2009 and having the value drop if they fail. I'd go with a vet until a deal is made and then commit to the other with a regular role.
But don't you expect for at least one of the two to be up in September anyway? Their value could drop in AAA too. We have a need now. If we bring one up that doesn't mean the one left in AAA would be devalued.

cincrazy
07-12-2009, 11:01 AM
This is bad to see, in terms of Jay's development. Clearly you'd like him in the lineup to work through some things.

But on the same hand, maybe it will be a blessing in disguise, as FCB and others have mentioned. If anyone could use some time off, it's him. And I really can't say it makes our ballclub that much worse. If we can withstand the loss of Phillips and Votto, we can certainly withstand the loss of Bruce. Not to say we're making a playoff push, that's not happening. But I don't think we'll go completely in the tank.

Chip R
07-12-2009, 11:12 AM
On Base Machine actually raises a terrific point.

This is not Baker's fault per se, but you have to scratch your head sometimes at his decision making.

Baker just gave him a few days off for a "mental break," and decides to bring him back- to regain his confidence, mind you- against not only Johan Santana but against a the exact-handed pitcher he couldn't hit the side of a barn against.

Bruce has a whopping one of his eighteen homeruns against lefties, slugs an inspirational .280 against them while topping out at a .183 clip BA wise.

Part of Bruce's problem has been that Dusty can't figure out that he can't hit lefties.

If doing poorly affects confidence, why would you play a guy against the type of pitcher that does nothing but gets Bruce out?

Santana has been entirely hittable this year, but Bruce entirely hasn't hit lefties, so he should not have been in there.

And part of making decisions as a manager is thinking, why would I put a guy in the lineup who isn't going to give me anything at all offensively, when there is always, always a chance someone gets hurt?

If injuries are a part of the game and there is always a chance to get hurt, why tempt fate with a guy who has proven he is going to give you nothing against the exact handed pitcher that is going that night?

And as far as Bruce not impressing anyone this year- the guy has been the victim of as much bad luck as Votto has benefitted from good.

With BABIP hovering around .200, a K rate that isn't terrible, an improved walk rate and an awesome slugging percentage of over .500 against righties, he was on the verge of turning things around.

This is not a good injury where there is a bright side to it.


So, tell me, how is Bruce going to learn to hit lefties sitting on the bench? Dusty can sit next to him and tell him Hank Aaron stories but that won't teach him to hit lefties. 22 years old and already a platoon player? I think not. And what better lefty to face than Santana? If Bruce is going to be the star that he was projected to be, he is going to have to learn to hit all kinds of pitches from all kinds of pitchers. He's going to have to learn to hit the 97 mph fastball, the splitter, the slider, the curve, the change, the sinker, even the occasional screwball and knuckler. He's going to have to learn to hit starters, middle relievers, setup men, closers, kids up from the minors he's never seen before, long relievers, guys from Japan and Korea who have funky deliveries. He's going to have to learn to hit the fastball/change/slider pitchers, the soft tossers, the sidearmers, the control pitchers and even the wild ones. And, above all, he's going to have to hit left handed pitching. Now if he's going to be a Laynce Nix platoon player then by all means, sit him anytime a lefty is pitching. But I think Bruce has higher expectations than that.

As for his injury, it was unfortunate but who saw that coming? You said it yourself, there's always a chance someone could get hurt. Whether there's a righty or a lefty on the mound. Whether it's in NY or St. Louis of Cincinnati. Maybe Dusty should consult you before the game to see which of his players will get hurt so he can bench them. Bruce could have not played at all yesterday and injured himself the same way today. It's not like he's injuy prone either. You can't fill out a lineup card fearing that nomally healthy players may get injured. Someone like Jr. you could bench when it's raining so he hasn't the opportunity to hurt himself. But he was injury prone during his time here. Bruce is a perfectly healthy 22 year old. You don't bench perfectly healthy 22 year olds that project to be superstars because they might get hurt.

membengal
07-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Chip:

You want him to learn against lefties? Me too.

So...learn him against Moyer, who he sat against on Thursday. Spare him Santana, who he was asked to deal with on Saturday. He was struggling, help him through his struggles with a smidgen of common sense is all anyone is asking.

That opinion stands irrespective of the injury.

Dom Heffner
07-12-2009, 11:29 AM
So, tell me, how is Bruce going to learn to hit lefties sitting on the bench? Dusty can sit next to him and tell him Hank Aaron stories but that won't teach him to hit lefties. 22 years old and already a platoon player? I think not.

The gist of my point is that Bruce came off of what Dusty called a "confidence break."

So, you sit him for two days and bring him back against not only a lefty, but Johan Santana?

Thanks for the mental break, captain.

And to top it off, he batted him second.

It shows me that Dusty doesn't think past his nose.

The Reds have a several hundred million dollar corporation with a .10 mind running the show.

KYRedsFan
07-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Hope it doesn't linger, wrist problems and hitters, not good times.

Blitz Dorsey
07-12-2009, 11:46 AM
I have to think it will be Stubbs that gets the call today. Heisey deserves it IMO, but since he's playing in the Futures Game today, I bet it will be Stubbs.

redsmetz
07-12-2009, 11:51 AM
The gist of my point is that Bruce came off of what Dusty called a "confidence break."

So, you sit him for two days and bring him back against not only a lefty, but Johan Santana?

Thanks for the mental break, captain.

And to top it off, he batted him second.

It shows me that Dusty doesn't think past his nose.

The Reds have a several hundred million dollar corporation with a .10 mind running the show.

I'm just reporting here: Dusty statement was that batting him behind Tavaras could allow Jay to see fastballs because with Tavaras on, the pitcher would be thinking about Tavaras on base. Of course, the mistake there, is assuming that Tavaras would actually be on base enough to give Bruce that break. Now I liked batting Bruce in front of Votto though, because I think they would prefer to face Bruce than Votto. Maybe my reasoning's wrong, but I liked that.

I'm in the camp that Bruce needed to face lefties to learn how to have success against them. It was way too early to relegate him to a platoon if he's one of your future linchpins.

The deed is done now though. It didn't matter which pitcher he was facing or where he batted in the order. None of that mattered on a ball he's racing in to catch (which he did, btw) and has a freakish turn on his wrist. I knew it was broken the second I saw the play. The only time I hoped it wouldn't be broken was on the final replay they showed and I had a tiny hope maybe it would just be a strain. Alas, such was not the case.

For all the frustration with this season's team, one has to wonder where we'd be without all the big DL stints we've had (Volquez, Votto, EE and now Bruce). For a poorly crafted roster, having had these guys the entire time would have been very interesting indeed.

HokieRed
07-12-2009, 11:52 AM
2 points:
1. Wrist, hand, finger injuries to hitters are never blessings of any kind.
2. If Bruce is to be the kind of player he's projected to be, he should--like any other player--want and be ready to play every day, as I'm sure he does. Any use of his injury to construct stories critical of Dusty is unjustified, plain and simple.

mth123
07-12-2009, 11:59 AM
But don't you expect for at least one of the two to be up in September anyway? Their value could drop in AAA too. We have a need now. If we bring one up that doesn't mean the one left in AAA would be devalued.

I'd leave them both in AAA. A Sept cup of coffee won't devalue them like a half season of struggling will.

redsfandan
07-12-2009, 12:55 PM
For all the frustration with this season's team, one has to wonder where we'd be without all the big DL stints we've had (Volquez, Votto, EE and now Bruce). For a poorly crafted roster, having had these guys the entire time would have been very interesting indeed.
That's what I think too. The Reds were a team to watch this year. A sleeper team that could surprise. I think they could be even more of one next year.

I'd leave them both in AAA. A Sept cup of coffee won't devalue them like a half season of struggling will.I'd prefer not dealing either one and just bringing them up when we have to like they're in the Reds plans for the future with the only consideration being starting their clock as far as service time. Arroyo, Weathers, Maloney, ... we still have some chips to work with. Unless there's a really good deal I'd just as soon plan for a 2010 outfield of Bruce/Dickerson/Stubbs/Heisey/& WhaTshisname.

Kc61
07-12-2009, 01:01 PM
The gist of my point is that Bruce came off of what Dusty called a "confidence break."

So, you sit him for two days and bring him back against not only a lefty, but Johan Santana?

Thanks for the mental break, captain.

And to top it off, he batted him second.

It shows me that Dusty doesn't think past his nose.

The Reds have a several hundred million dollar corporation with a .10 mind running the show.

So you think Dusty didn't understand that Johan Santana is lefty and is good? Is that the point?

Dusty's decision was based on his view that Bruce is his everyday right fielder. He plays against good pitching, bad pitching, righty pitching, lefty pitching. That's the decision he made at the beginning of the season and I'm sure that Walt Jocketty was fully on board. Walt may have even ordered it.

So when Jay gets a two day break he comes back against whomever is pitching. Good pitcher, bad pitcher, righty pitcher, lefty pitcher. In keeping with the decision made earlier.

These criticisms of playing Bruce yesterday are, at some level, an attempt to blame Dusty for what happened. Yes. They all say, well, I'm not blaming him, but Jay shouldn't have been out there. There's only one reason those arguments are being made in this thread entitled "Bruce fractures wrist."

It was not a bad decision, it was in keeping with Bruce's usage during the entire season. Dusty did say he doesn't see any advantage of righty hitters against Santana. There was nobody on the Reds' bench who could hit Santana.

He broke his wrist, it happens. Bruce wasn't hitting anyway, so now he'll heal and take some rahab and maybe it all works out for the better in his case.

TheNext44
07-12-2009, 01:05 PM
It's Rosales. Makes sense for one day before the All Star break.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a960b98f1-65c4-4e5c-a025-5370311b38e3&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com


Chris Dickerson 9
Willy Taveras 8
Joey Votto 3
Brandon Phillips 4
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Edwin Encarnacion 5
Jerry Hairston 6
Aaron Harang 1

vs. RH Mike Pelfrey

Adam Rosales is here. Makes sense since he's on the 40-man and can play outfield in a pinch. Remember, the Reds have 13 pitchers. They could add Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey after the break.

No word on Jay Bruce.

I'm told the break is along the joint line. The bones have to line up perfectly. It looks like it does on the x-ray. But an MRI is much more precise. If it's not perfectly lined up, he would need surgery, ending his season.

If Bruce needs surgery, that's very bad news. Really makes it harder to come back as strong. I've known a few friends who needed the surgery on their wrists, and they have never been the same with that hand.

jojo
07-12-2009, 01:05 PM
I think Dusty is prone to run Bruce out against Johan as a show of confidence.

PuffyPig
07-12-2009, 01:26 PM
I'd leave them both in AAA. A Sept cup of coffee won't devalue them like a half season of struggling will.


I don't believe the Reds will be handling Heisey and/or Stubbs based on increasing thier trade value.

They will handle them based on what they believe will make them the best major leaguers possible. A possible OF in 2010 of Bruce/Stubbs/Heisey might have a big future. It certainly would be one of the best defensive OF's around.

Falls City Beer
07-12-2009, 01:32 PM
So you think Dusty didn't understand that Johan Santana is lefty and is good? Is that the point?

Dusty's decision was based on his view that Bruce is his everyday right fielder. He plays against good pitching, bad pitching, righty pitching, lefty pitching. That's the decision he made at the beginning of the season and I'm sure that Walt Jocketty was fully on board. Walt may have even ordered it.

So when Jay gets a two day break he comes back against whomever is pitching. Good pitcher, bad pitcher, righty pitcher, lefty pitcher. In keeping with the decision made earlier.

These criticisms of playing Bruce yesterday are, at some level, an attempt to blame Dusty for what happened. Yes. They all say, well, I'm not blaming him, but Jay shouldn't have been out there. There's only one reason those arguments are being made in this thread entitled "Bruce fractures wrist."

It was not a bad decision, it was in keeping with Bruce's usage during the entire season. Dusty did say he doesn't see any advantage of righty hitters against Santana. There was nobody on the Reds' bench who could hit Santana.

He broke his wrist, it happens. Bruce wasn't hitting anyway, so now he'll heal and take some rahab and maybe it all works out for the better in his case.

This is totally correct. And yes, Bruce was about as ready for the Show as I am. Unless something is seriously ruined in his wrist, he'll be back and will get a mulligan on this season; hit the reset button and start fresh in 2010.

membengal
07-12-2009, 01:41 PM
KC, respectfully, your post is nonsense. If Bruce had sat out yesterday against Santana, and slipped on sunflower seeds, and broken his wrist, that wouldn't have been dusty's fault. That Bruce played against Santana and broke his wrist is NOT dusty's fault either.

Is that clear enough for you?

Now, having said that, it made ZERO sense to run a 22-year-old who has been flat-lining against lefties back into the line-up against one of the nastiest left-handers in baseball. That was a decision I was cricital of before the game, during the game, and now after the game. It has NOTHING to do with Bruce's injury. It has everything to do with the decision in the first place.

Don't want you to have to nefariously read between any lines...

One can be critical of the initial decision and NOT blame dusty for the injury. No hidden agenda on my part, I promise you, to blame dusty for the risk that anyone takes in playing the game. My focus is simply on the initial decision. It is something I would have discussed whether Bruce broke his wrist or not.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 01:46 PM
And as far as Bruce not impressing anyone this year- the guy has been the victim of as much bad luck as Votto has benefitted from good.

With BABIP hovering around .200, a K rate that isn't terrible, an improved walk rate and an awesome slugging percentage of over .500 against righties, he was on the verge of turning things around.

This is not a good injury where there is a bright side to it.

Nice post. I agree with ya. I thought Bruce was going to have a big second half of the season. Now we'll never know. Hopefully he doesn't need the surgery and can come back in mid September and get 40-50 plate appearances.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 01:48 PM
These criticisms of playing Bruce yesterday are, at some level, an attempt to blame Dusty for what happened. Yes. They all say, well, I'm not blaming him, but Jay shouldn't have been out there. There's only one reason those arguments are being made in this thread entitled "Bruce fractures wrist."


Feel free to assume all you want, but that's simply not true. I don't think there's anyone here who is blaming Dusty for Jay's injury.

membengal
07-12-2009, 01:48 PM
Feel free to assume all you want, but that's simply not true. I don't think there's anyone here who is blaming Dusty for Jay's injury.

100% correct.

PuffyPig
07-12-2009, 02:04 PM
For rthose wondering why Bruce was playing against Santana, his spits may be part of the reason.

Santana has always been tougher vs. RH hitters than left, but that is really true this year.

Santana holds RH hitters to a .617 OPS this year, LH's .882, including a .567 SL%.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 02:05 PM
Baker: Let's not rush these guys
Posted by JohnFay at 7/12/2009 12:04 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The Reds will likely add player right after the break. They have 13 pitchers right now. But it might not be Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey.

“This Stubbs’ first (full) year in Triple-A. He’s doing pretty good. What is hitting .280? What does that equate to here? He’s still trying to figure out his stroke.

“Let’s not rush these guys, like we did with whole bunch of guys. If they’re going to be here, you want to play them everyday. I was really impressed with Heisey in the spring. But he just got to Triple-A.

“I’ve seen guys have a good two weeks or a month. (Adam Rosales) was hitting .390 when he got here.”

“Last year, Jay Bruce was hitting .400.

“Let’s let them play and tear it up for a while.”

“Just because we’re in need . . . Let’s let these kids play and develop. All we see is batting average. We don’t see the total game. There’s base-running, throwing, getting sign, fundamental stuff.”

Does Bruce's injury make a trade more important?

“It depends,” Baker said. “Everyone knows what you need. They want to get the better of the deal. A trade is supposed to be a trade. It’s harder to trade now than ever before. Most teams want your younger players.

“Walt’s already been on the phone.”

On another subject, Baker sounded a little miffed at his former employers at ESPN.

“We don’t get top mention about anything,” Baker said. “The only publicity we got was when we got killed 22-1. They showed every hit, every run, which I took exception to. Why do we get all the publicity in the world when it’s a joke?

“Nobody knows how we do. We’ve got some good young players here.”

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aa96c7e15-ed85-4c40-9dec-8ea741ff4452&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Finding them playing time shouldn't be that hard. It's simple, admit your mistake and release Willy Taveras.

alloverjr
07-12-2009, 02:10 PM
We don’t see the total game. There’s base-running, throwing, getting sign, fundamental stuff.”



That certainly hasn't held back the current 25 man roster.

membengal
07-12-2009, 02:10 PM
For rthose wondering why Bruce was playing against Santana, his spits may be part of the reason.

Santana has always been tougher vs. RH hitters than left, but that is really true this year.

Santana holds RH hitters to a .617 OPS this year, LH's .882, including a .567 SL%.

Puffy, that's a fair point. I just don't think Bruce, given his stuggles against lefties (which were stark), needed to deal with this particular lefty. Given those stats, perhaps Nix...

In any event, he got hurt, and his year was, frankly, disappointing. He needs to do something in the off-season to diagnose what went wrong and address it.

Dusty SHOULD be able to count on Bruce everyday. That there were questions about Bruce by the end is on Bruce, not Dusty.

Joseph
07-12-2009, 02:26 PM
Anyone called up to replace him for this game? I missed it if so.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 02:27 PM
Anyone called up to replace him for this game? I missed it if so.

Adam Rosales.

PuffyPig
07-12-2009, 02:36 PM
Puffy, that's a fair point. I just don't think Bruce, given his stuggles against lefties (which were stark), needed to deal with this particular lefty. Given those stats, perhaps Nix...



Nix is just as bad vs. LH pitching as Bruce.

Dom Heffner
07-12-2009, 02:38 PM
Dusty's decision was based on his view that Bruce is his everyday right fielder. He plays against good pitching, bad pitching, righty pitching, lefty pitching. That's the decision he made at the beginning of the season and I'm sure that Walt Jocketty was fully on board. Walt may have even ordered it.


You're missing the broader point: Baker gave Bruce a "confidence break."

On what planet should your return from that break be against the type of pitcher you struggle against?

And one of the best ones at that?

Bruce has 18 homers, 1 against lefties.

If you want to argue that to get better against them he should play, then fine.

But Baker wasn't arguing that- he had him on a rest break to get back his confidence.

Kc61
07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
You're missing the broader point: Baker gave Bruce a "confidence break."

On what planet should your return from that break be against the type of pitcher you struggle against?

And one of the best ones at that?

Bruce has 18 homers, 1 against lefties.

If you want to argue that to get better against them he should play, then fine.

But Baker wasn't arguing that- he had him on a rest break to get back his confidence.

Do you claim to know what would or would not boost Jay Bruce's confidence? I wouldn't make such a claim.

All this message board psychology amounts to nothing. We don't know the individual, the discussions with him, or what work they have been doing with him including during the two-game break.

Maybe Bruce's confidence would have been hurt if he thought they didn't want to play him against tough pitching?

All I know is that the suggestions that somehow, at some level, Baker is responsible for Bruce's injury aren't well taken.

Joseph
07-12-2009, 03:05 PM
Adam Rosales.

Wow, way to go out on a limb there Walter.

redsmetz
07-12-2009, 03:14 PM
Wow, way to go out on a limb there Walter.

Whether Rosales stays or not, I can't say. But it gives them an extra body for today's game and time over the break to make another decision, if they so choose. No biggie, really.

bucksfan2
07-12-2009, 03:20 PM
Do you claim to know what would or would not boost Jay Bruce's confidence? I wouldn't make such a claim.

All this message board psychology amounts to nothing. We don't know the individual, the discussions with him, or what work they have been doing with him including during the two-game break.

Maybe Bruce's confidence would have been hurt if he thought they didn't want to play him against tough pitching?

All I know is that the suggestions that somehow, at some level, Baker is responsible for Bruce's injury aren't well taken.

Don't lefties hit Santana? I always thought change up pitchers were susceptible to the same handedness.

edabbs44
07-12-2009, 03:27 PM
KC, respectfully, your post is nonsense. If Bruce had sat out yesterday against Santana, and slipped on sunflower seeds, and broken his wrist, that wouldn't have been dusty's fault. That Bruce played against Santana and broke his wrist is NOT dusty's fault either.

Is that clear enough for you?

Now, having said that, it made ZERO sense to run a 22-year-old who has been flat-lining against lefties back into the line-up against one of the nastiest left-handers in baseball. That was a decision I was cricital of before the game, during the game, and now after the game. It has NOTHING to do with Bruce's injury. It has everything to do with the decision in the first place.

Don't want you to have to nefariously read between any lines...

One can be critical of the initial decision and NOT blame dusty for the injury. No hidden agenda on my part, I promise you, to blame dusty for the risk that anyone takes in playing the game. My focus is simply on the initial decision. It is something I would have discussed whether Bruce broke his wrist or not.

Then the discussion of whether he should have played or not shouldn't have even entered this thread, since the thread was solely about his injury.

Problem solved.

TheNext44
07-12-2009, 03:40 PM
Don't lefties hit Santana? I always thought change up pitchers were susceptible to the same handedness.

Nice catch. It's true.

Santana career vs RH

.278 .361 .639

Career vs LH

.287 .390 .677

Better across the board, though not by much.

This season it's even bigger.

Santana 2009 vs RH

.221 .287 .329

Santana 2009 vs LH

.267 .323 .567

Lefties are actually hitting Santana pretty hard this year. Maybe Dusty looks at stats after all. ;)

Brutus
07-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Nice catch. It's true.

Santana career vs RH

.278 .361 .639

Career vs LH

.287 .390 .677

Better across the board, though not by much.

This season it's even bigger.

Santana 2009 vs RH

.221 .287 .329

Santana 2009 vs LH

.267 .323 .567

Lefties are actually hitting Santana pretty hard this year. Maybe Dusty looks at stats after all. ;)

Yep. Santana's changeup is what makes him so good. A changeup does not affect the handedness of the batter as much as a curve or slider does (of course he still has plenty of breaking balls). But the point is, he's not as drastic against lefties as most guys - he's just equally good against everyone.

Kc61
07-12-2009, 05:21 PM
Don't lefties hit Santana? I always thought change up pitchers were susceptible to the same handedness.

It was reported in one of the blogs that Dusty said that lefties hit Santana as well or better than righties. Whether one agrees with him or not, Dusty was aware of what he was doing.

Homer Bailey
07-12-2009, 05:58 PM
It was reported in one of the blogs that Dusty said that lefties hit Santana as well or better than righties. Whether one agrees with him or not, Dusty was aware of what he was doing.

Dusty picks and chooses his Dustification. He follows no method or strategy when filling out a lineup card. Don't let him trick you into thinking he knew what he was doing.

Highlifeman21
07-12-2009, 07:30 PM
Not good. Let's see what walt can pull out of his magic hat. I still believe.

Still believe in what?

Highlifeman21
07-12-2009, 07:32 PM
Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson would be one helluva defensive outfield.

Offensively?

Not so much...

GAC
07-12-2009, 09:33 PM
Offensively?

Not so much...

But in the first half of this season, while his defense has been a huge plus, Bruce's offensive production has been sorely lacking. A young player still, but his stuggles at the plate, espcially vs LHers, has been somewhat of a disapppointment to me. He looks lost a lot of the time.

I hope Dusty gives Dickerson the opp to get more playing time and ABs.

Big Klu
07-12-2009, 09:38 PM
Whether Rosales stays or not, I can't say. But it gives them an extra body for today's game and time over the break to make another decision, if they so choose. No biggie, really.

Bingo. Rosales is on the 40-man roster, so it was an easy call.

Highlifeman21
07-12-2009, 09:54 PM
But in the first half of this season, while his defense has been a huge plus, Bruce's offensive production has been sorely lacking. A young player still, but his stuggles at the plate, espcially vs LHers, has been somewhat of a disapppointment to me. He looks lost a lot of the time.

I hope Dusty gives Dickerson the opp to get more playing time and ABs.

I just hope it somehow means less playing time for our boy Willy T

GAC
07-12-2009, 09:57 PM
I just hope it somehow means less playing time for our boy Willy T

Sadly, that will never happen. It will probably mean MORE playing time as CDick will be seated in RF, with Nix and Gomes platooning in LF.

And WT will still be leading off. (sigh)

Screwball
07-13-2009, 05:14 AM
I found this on Ken Broo's blog (http://kenbroo.blogspot.com/), and I thought I'd share. I didn't know Pete took such an interest in current players...



Friday, I called Pete Rose and asked him to join me on my Sunday morning radio show on 700 WLW in Cincinnati. Rose agreed to an interview. But before agreeing (I had left voice mail for him and didn’t realize he had done this before he returned my call) Rose placed a call to the Reds clubhouse in New York, at Citi Field. He wanted to speak personally with Bruce. They talked about hitting for about 20-minutes on Friday night. Rose told me, he gave Bruce six minor adjustments to work on, but emphatically told the young outfielder do NOT change your swing. That. Rose says, is suicidal for a hitter. He also told Bruce to not believe that he’s in a slump. Rose maintains if a pitcher believes a hitter is in a slump, he’ll own him. It’s a ‘lull’, Rose says, that Bruce must believe he’s in the middle of. He says he promised Bruce he’d watch his games over the next week or so and call him back with some more advice. Now, of course, that’s on hold. But if Jay Bruce wants to return to the kind of hitter he was in the minors, maybe it’s worth his while to buy a plane ticket to LA and seek out Rose for some personal coaching. Why not? The Hit King has already taken an interest.

icehole3
07-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Pete helped A-Rod turn things around, he is still one of the greatest hitting minds still living

bucksfan2
07-13-2009, 10:10 AM
But in the first half of this season, while his defense has been a huge plus, Bruce's offensive production has been sorely lacking. A young player still, but his stuggles at the plate, espcially vs LHers, has been somewhat of a disapppointment to me. He looks lost a lot of the time.

I hope Dusty gives Dickerson the opp to get more playing time and ABs.

Bruce defense has been a plus this year but his bat has been hurting the team. I would argue that offense is more pressing of a need than D is. It sounds bad but the offense should improve now with Bruce out. The problem is that the "potential" offense took a beating because Bruce has much more potential than anyone they can insert.

Hopefully the Reds will bring up Stubbs after the MiLB All Star game and play an of of Gomes, Stubbs, and Dickerson. Stubbs and Dickerson's OBP will be a nice addition and Gomes SLG could be much needed.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 11:34 AM
Any word on the extent of the injury? Is he done for the year?

TRF
07-13-2009, 11:49 AM
Well, EE took 2 1/2 months roughly. He might get 2 weeks worth of AB's, but a week will be regaining his stroke, followed by a week of decent hitting, maybe. I wouldn't count on a thing until April 2010.

mth123
07-13-2009, 11:54 AM
Well, EE took 2 1/2 months roughly. He might get 2 weeks worth of AB's, but a week will be regaining his stroke, followed by a week of decent hitting, maybe. I wouldn't count on a thing until April 2010.

Bruce should sit now and play winter ball in December or January. It would help him and the team.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2009, 12:03 PM
Commentary: Schmidt’s example ideal for Reds’ Bruce

By Marc Katz, Staff Writer
10:23 PM Sunday, July 12, 2009

Jay Bruce, out for awhile with a broken wrist, ought to seek advice from Dayton native Mike Schmidt.

There has been some consternation around Cincinnati about Bruce’s batting average, stuck at .207 just before he hurt his right wrist on Saturday. He does, of course, have those 18 home runs and 41 RBIs, so nobody’s complaining about the power in Dayton’s Bruce (well, he played here for the Dragons in 2006), but that batting average just won’t do, even if it is Bruce’s first full major-league season.

If that low batting average sounds familiar, it should. Schmidt’s first full season with the Phillies came in 1973, when he played in 132 games, hitting 18 homers with 52 RBIs. He also batted .196, which is probably why Phillies fans booed him most of his career.

Schmidt whetted their appetite with a rousing .206 the year before in a cameo appearance covering 13 games.

Schmidt figured it out in one year, hitting .282 in 1974 on the way to the Hall of Fame with 548 homers and an eventual .267 batting average. He is always in the discussion as one of the game’s greatest third basemen.

Let’s review. Schmidt and Bruce are both from Dayton (in one form or another), both showed early power and low batting averages.

Let’s hope Bruce can follow Schmidt’s next step.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/cincinnati-reds/commentary-schmidts-example-ideal-for-reds-bruce-202388.html

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2009, 12:05 PM
Reds’ Bruce expected to miss 6-8 weeks
By Brian Kollars | Monday, July 13, 2009, 10:50 AM

This just in from Cincinnati Reds media relations:

Reds OF Jay Bruce had an MRI late (Sunday) night that showed no damage to the tendons or ligaments in his right wrist. He will be examined again on Thursday prior to the Reds first game after the All-Star break. Bruce is expected to miss 6-8 weeks.

Bruce has played in 83 games this season. He’s batting .207 with 18 home runs and 41 RBIs. He has struck out 63 times, most on the team

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

edabbs44
07-13-2009, 12:09 PM
Reds’ Bruce expected to miss 6-8 weeks
By Brian Kollars | Monday, July 13, 2009, 10:50 AM

This just in from Cincinnati Reds media relations:

Reds OF Jay Bruce had an MRI late (Sunday) night that showed no damage to the tendons or ligaments in his right wrist. He will be examined again on Thursday prior to the Reds first game after the All-Star break. Bruce is expected to miss 6-8 weeks.

Bruce has played in 83 games this season. He’s batting .207 with 18 home runs and 41 RBIs. He has struck out 63 times, most on the team

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Excellent news.

cumberlandreds
07-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Reds’ Bruce expected to miss 6-8 weeks
By Brian Kollars | Monday, July 13, 2009, 10:50 AM

This just in from Cincinnati Reds media relations:

Reds OF Jay Bruce had an MRI late (Sunday) night that showed no damage to the tendons or ligaments in his right wrist. He will be examined again on Thursday prior to the Reds first game after the All-Star break. Bruce is expected to miss 6-8 weeks.

Bruce has played in 83 games this season. He’s batting .207 with 18 home runs and 41 RBIs. He has struck out 63 times, most on the team

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Not having to have surgery is the best news he could have received. He could be back by just before Labor Day but I hope the Reds don't rush him and if he misses the rest of the season it won't hurt him a bit.
That analogy between him and Schmidt is a good one. Schmidt was just awful his first season but the Phils stuck with him and things panned out pretty good I believe. ;) The Reds should do the same with Bruce. he may not be an HOFer but I still think he can be a very MLB player for many years.

Mario-Rijo
07-13-2009, 01:02 PM
Reds’ Bruce expected to miss 6-8 weeks
By Brian Kollars | Monday, July 13, 2009, 10:50 AM

This just in from Cincinnati Reds media relations:

Reds OF Jay Bruce had an MRI late (Sunday) night that showed no damage to the tendons or ligaments in his right wrist. He will be examined again on Thursday prior to the Reds first game after the All-Star break. Bruce is expected to miss 6-8 weeks.

Bruce has played in 83 games this season. He’s batting .207 with 18 home runs and 41 RBIs. He has struck out 63 times, most on the team

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Again as people say good news. Don't rush him back either.

However now that this is done we should see the defense take a major hit. Bruce's arm was responsible for saving this team a lot of runs now we will see teams taking 2nd & 3rd a lot more and tagging up more and making it home.

bucksfan2
07-13-2009, 01:03 PM
Again as people say good news. Don't rush him back either.

However now that this is done we should see the defense take a major hit. Bruce's arm was responsible for saving this team a lot of runs now we will see teams taking 2nd & 3rd a lot more and tagging up more and making it home.

Bruce's bat was also partly responsible for this teams offensive ineptitude.

HeatherC1212
07-13-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm glad there's no extra damage to Jay's wrist and hopefully his recovery goes smoothly. It's never good to be on vacation and randomly catch a glimpse of bad news related to one of your favorite baseball players which is what happened to me over this past weekend. :eek:

klw
07-13-2009, 04:16 PM
Here's the fox sports article. much the same
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9803076/Reds:-Bruce-free-of-tendon-or-ligament-damage

GAC
07-13-2009, 10:20 PM
Bruce defense has been a plus this year but his bat has been hurting the team. I would argue that offense is more pressing of a need than D is. It sounds bad but the offense should improve now with Bruce out.

I agree. I don't want to come across as being really down on Bruce because he is still a young kid learning the game. But offensively, in 2009, he has been a disappointment. Pitchers have learned, and flaunted, his weaknesses, and the kid has to learn to adapt. It's not so much his very low BA, which is even more horrendous vs LHers, but also his dismal OB%. But I still see him having a very bright future with the this organization. He's too talented IMO. He'll come around.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2009, 09:46 PM
From Fay:

Jay Bruce had his cast removed from his right arm Wednesday.

"It feels as good as can be expected," he said. "It's not 100 percent healed. I'm starting to do range-of-motion work. I'm lifting, running, throwing."

Bruce hopes to return in early September. He has no plans on shutting it down for the year.

"Oh, God, no," he said. "I'll definitely play this year, barring any setback."

For all Bruce's struggles at the plate, his injury has had a big impact. The Reds are 4-17 since he broke his wrist trying to make a catch.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ad8e2f1bd-7e9f-471c-bcce-0640324145e9&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2009, 09:57 PM
Bruce's bat was also partly responsible for this teams offensive ineptitude.

To be frank and not a smartellic, I don't care if it was. I call that the price for enjoying him for years to come. The way I see it he knows what to do and his talent level suggest he can get what he knows done just a matter of time and some discipline on his part.

Although I am way late on responding.

Falls City Beer
08-07-2009, 10:20 PM
I call that the price for enjoying him for years to come.

I call it promoting him two seasons too soon.

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2009, 10:23 PM
I call it promoting him two seasons too soon.

I don't, kind of hard to improve your game when all you have to do is swing the bat at lower levels to have huge numbers. His education had to come at the major league level.

Falls City Beer
08-07-2009, 10:50 PM
I don't, kind of hard to improve your game when all you have to do is swing the bat at lower levels to have huge numbers. His education had to come at the major league level.

You shouldn't have to wait two or three seasons for a hitter. A pitcher, sure. But not a hitter.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2009, 11:14 PM
I call it promoting him two seasons too soon.

I wanted him up here maybe more than anyone last year. I have to agree with you now that he was not ready. I hate to see him up here struggling as he had, I would rather see him grow and develop where he might move forward in the right time frame for his career. I was shocked that he has struggled so badly. Looked like he took hitting instructions from me or worse. :(

I just don't agree with leaving players at the highest level to get their confidence and development knocked into the ground.

RedEye
08-07-2009, 11:22 PM
I wanted him up here maybe more than anyone last year. I have to agree with you now that he was not ready. I hate to see him up here struggling as he had, I would rather see him grow and develop where he might move forward in the right time frame for his career. I was shocked that he has struggled so badly. Looked like he took hitting instructions from me or worse. :(

I just don't agree with leaving players at the highest level to get their confidence and development knocked into the ground.

So... the Reds should have left him hitting .350 at AAA for two more years? I don't think so. There comes a time when you have to learn on the job. Bruce wasn't gaining anything at AAA anymore.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2009, 11:25 PM
So... the Reds should have left him hitting .350 at AAA for two more years? I don't think so. There comes a time when you have to learn on the job. Bruce wasn't gaining anything at AAA anymore.

I understand that point. I just don't want to see him get beat up at this level.

Cooper
08-07-2009, 11:49 PM
His BABIP is incredibly low. The guy struggled, but he hit into a lot of bad luck. If he comes back in good health some of the bad luck may even out....unless you don't believe in that (babip) kind of thing.

RedEye
08-07-2009, 11:49 PM
I understand that point. I just don't want to see him get beat up at this level.

I don't either and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the Reds sending him down if I thought his struggles were mostly due to his approach or his confidence. From what I've seen and read, though, neither of these seems to be the case. Bruce has been quite unlucky as a batter and yet has shown the character so far to suggest he can adapt to a slump and, eventually, learn to come out of it. That, IMO, is an important part of being a major leaguer--and something he'd need to learn at some point anyway.

Kc61
08-08-2009, 12:01 AM
Bruce had a very low line drive rate this year and a high fly ball rate. He had an extreme uppercut. The result was a bunch of medium fly ball outs and too few base hits. And it didn't improve as the year went on.

I don't blame the Reds for keeping him in the big leagues this year, but in retrospect he still had work to do on his swing. I hope that after he returns from injury he will level out the swing and hit up to the capabilities we all see in this hitter.

Cooper
08-08-2009, 12:04 AM
KC61--what was his LD rate?

*BaseClogger*
08-08-2009, 12:08 AM
You shouldn't have to wait two or three seasons for a hitter. A pitcher, sure. But not a hitter.

I personally feel the exact opposite. I think the pitchers are way ahead when they are called up; that's why the Pirates have a rookie pitcher every year who starts his career 6-0...

fearofpopvol1
08-08-2009, 12:11 AM
I call it promoting him two seasons too soon.

i don't think it was 2 season too early, but i think 1 season too early. lots of all time greats do struggle in the first full year.

traderumor
08-08-2009, 04:07 AM
From Fay:


For all Bruce's struggles at the plate, his injury has had a big impact. The Reds are 4-17 since he broke his wrist trying to make a catch.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ad8e2f1bd-7e9f-471c-bcce-0640324145e9&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.comYea, Bruce would have made a big difference. :rolleyes: While there is the possibility that he might have just been ready to start a team carrying hot streak, the probability of that was pretty low.

Ron Madden
08-08-2009, 04:56 AM
Jay Bruce has TALENT. Something the Cincinnati reds need more of, not only on offense, defense or pitching but in coaching, scouting and the front office.

SMcGavin
08-08-2009, 11:23 AM
When a guy dominates AAA he earns the call. Bruce didn't fly by AAA, he got 400+ ABs there and he was dominating. The Reds did the right thing in calling him up when they did.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2009, 11:29 AM
When a guy dominates AAA he earns the call. Bruce didn't fly by AAA, he got 400+ ABs there and he was dominating. The Reds did the right thing in calling him up when they did.

He was too young age-wise, not skill-wise. He needed to stay wherever in the minors was going to cause him to experience a major slump; and then to work his way out of that slump. What he experienced in the majors this summer wasn't just a slump; it was an exposure. He's going to have to be one of those especially persistent kids not to let it ruin him. There was no need to advance him so rapidly.

RedsManRick
08-08-2009, 11:33 AM
KC61--what was his LD rate?

It was a horrible 12.7% -- lowest in the majors among players with 300+ PA.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9892&position=OF

SMcGavin
08-08-2009, 11:34 AM
He was too young age-wise, not skill-wise. He needed to stay wherever in the minors was going to cause him to experience a major slump; and then to work his way out of that slump. What he experienced in the majors this summer wasn't just a slump; it was an exposure. He's going to have to be one of those especially persistent kids not to let it ruin him. There was no need to advance him so rapidly.

That's the thing, AAA was not going to cause him to have a major slump. He was too good for that league. I don't think Bruce's play this year ruined anything except maybe the Reds' 2009 chances (which would have been ruined with or without Bruce struggling).

Falls City Beer
08-08-2009, 11:38 AM
That's the thing, AAA was not going to cause him to have a major slump. He was too good for that league. I don't think Bruce's play this year ruined anything except maybe the Reds' 2009 chances (which would have been ruined with or without Bruce struggling).

Well, it's not like they're going to send him down to AAA next season, so we're probably looking at another season in 2010 of a replacement level bat in RF. I guess though it probably doesn't matter in the win-loss scheme of things because they're going to suck next season anyway. But the principle is reasonably important: if you want to want to matter as a franchise, you can't afford to bat too many replacement level guys.

It was astonishing to me to see how bad he got this season with so little change in approach.

IslandRed
08-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Triple-A pitchers weren't good enough to take advantage of his weaknesses, but honestly, I don't think the problem was exposing the flaws he had at the time. I think he's developed new flaws since he reached the major leagues. The dead-pull, extreme-flyball hitter we've been watching lately is not the same guy who was hitting screamers all over the ballpark in the minor leagues. Be it Brook Jacoby or someone else, someone needs to start earning their paycheck and get this fixed.

RANDY IN INDY
08-08-2009, 12:08 PM
When Welsh and Grande talked to him, during the game the other night, he mentioned that Jacoby's approach had been to get him to let the ball travel and hit the ball the opposite way. You cannot force people to make changes. There may appear to be changes in batting practice. When that person gets in a game and under pressure, it is always easier to revert back to the swing that feels more comfortable. I am not sold on Brook Jacoby, but it isn't as easy as telling and showing someone what they are doing wrong to make the change happen. It may take him a while to get that opp-field swing to the point where he will be able to consistently use it in a game. It's all about the muscle memory.

IslandRed
08-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Glad to hear they're trying to work on it.

RED VAN HOT
08-08-2009, 12:23 PM
Triple-A pitchers weren't good enough to take advantage of his weaknesses, but honestly, I don't think the problem was exposing the flaws he had at the time. I think he's developed new flaws since he reached the major leagues. The dead-pull, extreme-flyball hitter we've been watching lately is not the same guy who was hitting screamers all over the ballpark in the minor leagues. Be it Brook Jacoby or someone else, someone needs to start earning their paycheck and get this fixed.

I agree completely. For his first 18 games in the majors, ML pitchers were not able to take advantage either. He was hitting .382 with 4 HRs. IIRC, he was hitting line drives to all fields, just as he did in AAA. I suspect that he was then coached to pull the ball to take more advantage of his power. The marginal increase in power has come at the expense of over 100 points on his BA. The idea, I guess, was that in time he would adapt to the pull hitting style. I see no evidence of that.

Does anyone have access to his LD% in the minors or during his first 18 games of 2008? That might be the smoking bat.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 12:34 PM
So then was he either not ready for the majors, two young, weaknesses exposed or created or has he received poor instruction?

traderumor
08-08-2009, 12:44 PM
So then was he either not ready for the majors, two young, weaknesses exposed or created or has he received poor instruction?Here's a novel thought. Maybe he's just had a bad year!

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 12:45 PM
Here's a novel thought. Maybe he's just had a bad year!

All things are possible, "they say" :)

I haven't really looked seriously into the other Reds players, how many of them are having "just a bad year" too?

traderumor
08-08-2009, 12:49 PM
All things are possible, "they say" :)Reminds me of the low batting average year 3 Dunn had at the age of 23. Everyone had their opinions then, also. I think that was Bob Boone's fault, wasn't it?

StillFunkyB
08-08-2009, 12:56 PM
Reminds me of the low batting average year 3 Dunn had at the age of 23. Everyone had their opinions then, also. I think that was Bob Boone's fault, wasn't it?

You know what they say, when in doubt blame Bob Boone.

:D

RedEye
08-08-2009, 12:56 PM
I would guess at this point that Bruce's new "ceiling" is probably as a .260-.270 hitter with 40 HR power and elite OF defense. Unless he radically changes his approach, I don't see him hitting .300 like some predicted. I can live with that though.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 12:59 PM
Reminds me of the low batting average year 3 Dunn had at the age of 23. Everyone had their opinions then, also. I think that was Bob Boone's fault, wasn't it?

I don't know. I think I see that Dunn is having a pretty good year now. Bruce is very young so there is plenty of time for him to adapt and to adjust so that the talent that he has shown to have can be manifested.

Bob Boone? he is in high demand nowadays? ;)

I don't recall Dunn having a low OBP%

Not that the comparison means anything, different players, different times, but out of curiosity I had to look.



Dunn
G AB OBP SLG OPS
2001 Cin 66 244 .371 .578 .949
2002 Cin 158 535 .400 .454 .854

Bruce
G AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 Cin 108 413 .314 .453 .767
2009 Cin 83 299 .283 .441 .724

Mario-Rijo
08-08-2009, 01:54 PM
I would guess at this point that Bruce's new "ceiling" is probably as a .260-.270 hitter with 40 HR power and elite OF defense. Unless he radically changes his approach, I don't see him hitting .300 like some predicted. I can live with that though.

It's possible and I would agree it wouldn't bother me. However I think it's a bit soon to make any real judgements as he's had just over a years worth of PA's in the majors.

Chip R
08-08-2009, 02:02 PM
I call it promoting him two seasons too soon.


Ah, yes. FCB is always 20/20.

reds44
08-08-2009, 02:03 PM
Ah, yes. FCB is always 20/20.
Except for Johnny Cueto's fastball.

RedEye
08-08-2009, 02:07 PM
It's possible and I would agree it wouldn't bother me. However I think it's a bit soon to make any real judgements as he's had just over a years worth of PA's in the majors.

Sure, I agree. We don't quite yet know what we've got on our hands here--except for that he's got plus D and plus power. My projection of .260 to .270 is basically trying to be realistic about how much he can iron out the rest of the kinks. As for 2009, the power is already in evidence, and I think if you project his current stats out with a more league-normal BABIP, he'd be hitting around .240 or .250 at the moment. Can others back me up on this?

Falls City Beer
08-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Ah, yes. FCB is always 20/20.

Nah. I thought it was the right move to advance him at the time. I've changed my mind.

TheNext44
08-08-2009, 02:57 PM
Bruce's problem this year soimply has been his inability to recognize pitches. He is getting fooled by off speed pitches and pitchers are exploiting that.

There really is nothing to do for this, other than send him out there and have him learn from his mistakes. Playing him in AAA does nothing, since there aren't enough good pitchers there for him to learn from.

He needs to be here, batting against MLB pitchers with MLB stuff and learning as he plays. It means it will be ugly for a while, but it's the right move in the long run.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 02:58 PM
All things are possible, "they say" :)

I haven't really looked seriously into the other Reds players, how many of them are having "just a bad year" too?



Dickerson Age 27
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 31 122 102 .413 .608 1.021
2009 85 258 220 .355 .359 .715

Bruce Age 22
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 108 452 413 .314 .453 .767
2009 83 333 299 .283 .441 .725

Taveras Age 27
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 133 538 479 .308 .296 .604
2009 89 391 359 .276 .287 .563

Gonzalez Age 32
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2007 110 430 393 .325 .468 .793
2009 62 245 220 .250 .291 .541

Hairston Age 33
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 80 297 261 .384 .487 .871
2009 86 340 307 .305 .397 .703

Hernandez Age 33
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 133 507 463 .308 .406 .714
2009 77 316 273 .330 .355 .685

Hanigan Age 28
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 31 98 85 .367 .365 .732
2009 63 220 188 .390 .351 .741

Phillips Age 28
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 141 609 559 .312 .442 .754
2009 101 426 379 .330 .459 .789

Votto Age 25
Year G PA AB OBP SLG OPS
2008 151 589 526 .368 .506 .874
2009 78 316 277 .405 .578 .983

WebScorpion
08-30-2009, 08:37 AM
He was supposed to be examined Friday by Kremchek. Did anyone hear the outcome? :confused:

jojo
08-30-2009, 08:58 AM
He was supposed to be examined Friday by Kremchek. Did anyone hear the outcome? :confused:

Amputated his left leg from the knee down and a liver transplant.....

Afterward Kremcheck was heard squealing, "It's a live! It's alive!"......

klw
08-30-2009, 09:59 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090829/SPT04/308290029/1071/Bruce+anxious+to+get+back+in+swing


Bruce anxious to get back in swing
Reds notebook
By Tom Groeschen • tgroeschen@enquirer.com • August 29, 2009

Jay Bruce still hopes to play before the season is over, but it remains unclear when he might be ready.

Right fielder Bruce, disabled since July 12 with a broken right wrist, has begun swinging a bat. Bruce’s cast is long gone, and the splint also is off his wrist.

“I haven’t been cleared to hit, but I’m taking some dry swings,” Bruce said Saturday. “I hope I can hit soon.”

Bruce broke the wrist July11 while attempting a sliding catch against the Mets, and has been on the disabled list since.

In 83 games, Bruce is hitting .207 with 18 homers and 41 RBI. Bruce is still second on the Reds in home runs behind Joey Votto’s 20.

Highlifeman21
08-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Why have him play in September or October?

Send him to instructional league to rehab.

Chip R
08-30-2009, 04:45 PM
I wonder if he can rehab during the minor league playoffs?

Tom Servo
08-30-2009, 04:49 PM
This is all Bob Boone's fault. That idiot.
I stand by this stance.

Highlifeman21
08-30-2009, 05:13 PM
I stand by this stance.

I firmly support that stance.

Patrick Bateman
08-30-2009, 05:15 PM
Why have him play in September or October?

Send him to instructional league to rehab.

Well we are trying to develop the player. If he truly is fully healthy, and from the sounds of things this isn't a rush job, then getting major league at-bats continues to be the biggest thing for Bruce. Might give him a running start on next year.

SMcGavin
08-30-2009, 05:21 PM
Well we are trying to develop the player. If he truly is fully healthy, and from the sounds of things this isn't a rush job, then getting major league at-bats continues to be the biggest thing for Bruce. Might give him a running start on next year.

That's the big thing, if he truly is fully healthy. If that's the case then yeah, no reason to make him sit just because. But they better be sure about that wrist before he comes back.

Highlifeman21
08-30-2009, 05:28 PM
Well we are trying to develop the player. If he truly is fully healthy, and from the sounds of things this isn't a rush job, then getting major league at-bats continues to be the biggest thing for Bruce. Might give him a running start on next year.

The whole "if he truly is fully healthy" thing is what concerns me with the Reds.

I just want him to be 100% for OD next year.

I don't trust that the Reds know how to deliver him like that to 2010.

HeatherC1212
08-30-2009, 06:36 PM
He's playing in the Dominican Fall League to get some PAs this winter so if he can't get back to the team in September, he will get some at bats down there. I'm glad he's been able to do a little bit more.

OldXOhio
08-31-2009, 11:54 AM
I don't trust that the Reds know how to deliver him like that to 2010.

I think you can fill in the underlined section with most anything you want and it'd be hard to argue

Sea Ray
08-31-2009, 12:37 PM
The whole "if he truly is fully healthy" thing is what concerns me with the Reds.

I just want him to be 100% for OD next year.

I don't trust that the Reds know how to deliver him like that to 2010.

He's not fully healthy right now. He's already feeing soreness in the wrist and all he's done is hit soft tossing

Highlifeman21
08-31-2009, 12:51 PM
I think you can fill in the underlined section with most anything you want and it'd be hard to argue

I'm definitely skeptical that the Reds know how to get Bruce to OD 2010 100% healthy.

lollipopcurve
08-31-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm definitely skeptical that the Reds know how to get Bruce to OD 2010 100% healthy.

Maybe they're pushing the wrist too fast, but you can't know until you have him try to swing.

I'm more concerned about Bruce's productivity than his health. I think the organization is taking the right approach by trying to get him ABs prior to the 2010 season. If the wrist doesn't respond, shut him right down. But if he is healthy, he needs to get back on the field and figure out how to do more than pop the occasional longball.

Highlifeman21
08-31-2009, 12:58 PM
Maybe they're pushing the wrist too fast, but you can't know until you have him try to swing.

I'm more concerned about Bruce's productivity than his health. I think the organization is taking the right approach by trying to get him ABs prior to the 2010 season. If the wrist doesn't respond, shut him right down. But if he is healthy, he needs to get back on the field and figure out how to do more than pop the occasional longball.

I'm more concerned about his health than his productivity.

If he's not 100%, but is still able to play, his productivity might suffer as a result of making changes in his swing and approach due to not being 100% healthy.

RED VAN HOT
08-31-2009, 01:02 PM
Maybe they're pushing the wrist too fast, but you can't know until you have him try to swing.

I'm more concerned about Bruce's productivity than his health. I think the organization is taking the right approach by trying to get him ABs prior to the 2010 season. If the wrist doesn't respond, shut him right down. But if he is healthy, he needs to get back on the field and figure out how to do more than pop the occasional longball.

Call me Mr glass half full, but a temporary loss of the long ball may turn out to be the best thing for his game in the long run. While he is regaining strength, perhaps he will remember how to use the whole field.

lollipopcurve
08-31-2009, 02:09 PM
Call me Mr glass half full, but a temporary loss of the long ball may turn out to be the best thing for his game in the long run. While he is regaining strength, perhaps he will remember how to use the whole field.

Interesting thought -- I hope it works out that way.