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redsfan4445
07-12-2009, 02:49 PM
Watching this team this past 2 games, ZERO offense, and the loss of Bruce, Walt has to be REALLY working the phones this All-star Break.. NOWAY this team does nothing by Thursday!!.. the Front office cant expect fans who are knowledgeable about the team, to want to keep watching this offense putter along and buy tickets!! and with dusty saying he doesnt want to rush the young guys at AAA, sounds like he is asking for veterans.. (Rolen, Rios, etc..)

I would also fire Jacoby and replace him with a Kevin Mitchell (he helped Gomes during the off season).
they have to do something or the rest of this summer looks bleak.. Fans with this economy are NOT going to go watch this team struggle to score up to 3 runs a game..

Lets see what Walt and Bob Do.....

klw
07-12-2009, 03:03 PM
The problem with saying the team has to look different is that something is done for the sake of doing something but not for the sake of improvement this year and beyond. On Thursday the Reds will be in fifth place in the division, either 4.5 or 5.5 from first and either 6.5 or 7.5 out in the wildcard. The offense needs a big fix. For the team to compete this year every outfield position needs an upgrade now that Bruce is down longterm and SS needs an upgrade too. With Volquez out until mid to late August at best, there may be a need for a top starter too for the team to compete this year. This is not really possible to achieve without gutting the minors and hamstringing the team for the longterm.

A better option would be a selective seller role with making deals only if improving the team for a run next season and beyond. The pitching market is so thin explore moves for Harang, Weathers, and Arroyo but don't just dump them. If the move isn't there don't force it. At this point adding Rolen likely won't get the team a title so don't overpay. Bring up 2 of Stubbs, Heisey, and Frazier. Have the other at AAA until September.

I would still look at adding pieces, however, if the fit is good longterm. I believe the Cardinals brought in Carpenter or Williams a few years back in a year when they were not contending and it paid off long term. The Reds should not forget to maybe pick up a piece right now that could help them next year. Buy for next year.

flyer85
07-12-2009, 03:12 PM
yep, time to unload

redsfan4445
07-12-2009, 03:21 PM
So i guess winning this year isnt wanted by Reds fans?? im confused.. im sick of losing and you want to blow it all up 4 1/2 games out of first? cant imagine other teams this close , their fans wanting that to happen! We are close.. they need to add the right parts to get this team closer to 1st.. not unplug and fall to last place..!! start with the hitting coach as his plan isn working..and getting better players here..

If the Reds blow this up and fall to last place, Dusty wont be here next season and they will have to get another lame-duck manager till its time to win.. say 2012.. as it wont be next year they suddenly win with blowing it all up as some want done..

this team hasnt been good since 1990.. blowing it all up will set this team back at least 5 years..

klw
07-12-2009, 03:29 PM
If you reread my post I don't think the team needs to be blown up but rather I feel the moves that need to be made are not available at a reasonable cost. If you can't compete this year then make sure you can win next year. But I will bite- who would you acquire and what are you willing to give up. You mentioned Rolen and Rios. Are these the guys you would target and what are you willing to give up to get them and in Rios's case to pay him through 2014,.

redsfan4445
07-12-2009, 03:34 PM
no i was saying by Dusty's comments that he doesnt want to rush the young outfielders at AAA, He is asking for veterans in a trade from Walt.. Not just those specific names of Rolen and Rios....

also if they get a holiday. even if he leaves, he is a Type A free agent and thats 2 draft picks they would get to replace what they give up.. Stubbs and Travis Wood along with Roenkee and Edwin for Holiday would be a start..

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2009, 03:38 PM
We are close..

In your opinion.

Most people don't see the team as "close" but, rather, close-back in a mediocre division with a below-.500 record going into the break, the team's number-1 starter hurt indefinitely, and one of the team's main run-producing threats gone for the season.

The team has a good, young core of player under team control for 2010. The goal should be to make strategic moves to shed underperforming older players and get return that could help them next year and beyond.

That ain't "blowing it up" -- that's being smart about long term chances for success.

klw
07-12-2009, 03:40 PM
I agree that getting Holliday would bring life to the team. I don't know that his addition alone would put them over but I remember how excited I was to hear the Reds got Vaughn way back when. I don't know that I would include Wood to get Holliday but otherwise the loss of Stubbs is fine with the development of Heisey and Roenicke is replaceable. My other concern is that the team does not have enough starting pitching to get over the top. It could just be that they are all going through their dud period together. "Losing is a disease" The starters need to get out of this funk and soon.

RedLegSuperStar
07-12-2009, 04:16 PM
also if they get a holiday. even if he leaves, he is a Type A free agent and thats 2 draft picks they would get to replace what they give up.. Stubbs and Travis Wood along with Roenkee and Edwin for Holiday would be a start..

Travis Wood should be untouchable in my opinion. I would think Juan Fransisco, Carlos Fisher, and Drew Stubbs would be a good package of ready prospects for Holliday. I would think with the Reds situation the A's would want the Reds to over pay now more then ever due to their dire need for a bat. Even with the drop in Holliday's numbers. I still think he is the answer for this team and he would fit the mold for the GABP.

I see the sides for making moves as pretty even between, "play for the future/wait till next year" or "trade some of the surplus of prospects." This team has about two handfuls of potential prospects. Names like Travis Wood, Todd Frazier, Juan Fransisco, Pedro Viola, Neftali Soto, Chris Heisey, Matt Maloney, Zack Cozart, Yonder Alonso, Chris Valaika, Drew Stubbs, Yorman Rodriguez, and Juan Duran. Fans need to realize that not all these prospects are going to pan out and so will be blocked because someone is already exceding at the next level. We have needs and we need to address those needs now while we have a potential contender. Now is this time to improve this offense because we have been outscored 62-30 (not including todays game).. enough said.

HokieRed
07-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Some of us do not consider this team a potential contender. Next year, possibly, not in 2009. Rotation is too young, bullpen overworked already, offense mediocre to pitiful. We have 43 million dollars worth, at a minimum, of assets that would be tradable only if we absorb a good bit of the cost: Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, Gonzalez. Other players making significant money for whom there would be little market: EE, Taveras, Weathers, not to mention Lincoln. If you start trading away prospects for older players, you run the risk of ending up with more untradable, overpaid types. My hope is that Walt does little the rest of the way unless he can regain significant payroll flexibility, which, at this point, seems to me much more important than what we run out onto the field.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Time to start building for 2010. The 2010 Reds have a chance to be very good if our GM makes a few solid moves.

HokieRed
07-12-2009, 04:37 PM
2010 was the year long before 2009 began.

Kc61
07-12-2009, 04:46 PM
I think the Reds are a bit short on major league talent this year. But I don't think they should just be stockpiling prospects. Hopefully, they are past the stage of going solely with youth.

I hope that soon they trade some prospects for a couple of very good veteran players. Not rentals for this year, but guys they can control for awhile.

In particular I think the outfield is poor and the Reds need at least one top flight veteran outfielder. They also need a shortstop. And you never have enough pitching.

I don't know who they will trade, and I agree with Dusty that nobody should be rushed, but I'd really like to see Heisey get a chance to replace Bruce during his DL stint. Heisey seems to be a hitter. He can spend the rest of this year learning at the NL level and maybe be a real contributor next year.

LoganBuck
07-12-2009, 04:51 PM
Watching this team this past 2 games, ZERO offense, and the loss of Bruce, Walt has to be REALLY working the phones this All-star Break.. NOWAY this team does nothing by Thursday!!.. the Front office cant expect fans who are knowledgeable about the team, to want to keep watching this offense putter along and buy tickets!! and with dusty saying he doesnt want to rush the young guys at AAA, sounds like he is asking for veterans.. (Rolen, Rios, etc..)

I would also fire Jacoby and replace him with a Kevin Mitchell (he helped Gomes during the off season).
they have to do something or the rest of this summer looks bleak.. Fans with this economy are NOT going to go watch this team struggle to score up to 3 runs a game..

Lets see what Walt and Bob Do.....

Dude, take some time, and use a more mainstream posting style, you come off as a ticked off teenager, whose thumbs are on fire.

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Falls City Beer
07-12-2009, 05:02 PM
This team is going to need a pretty big payroll boost to turn it around as early as next season. The pitchers and hitters on the farm who can contribute are still a long way from the majors.

WMR
07-12-2009, 05:07 PM
The Reds COULD be good in 2010 IF Walt Jocketty makes some--as in more than one--smart moves.

The inertia that has marked his legacy as Reds GM to date, however, isn't going to get the Reds anywhere whether it be in 2010 or any other year.

I wonder how many PAs Willy Taveras will get in 2010? You could probably do a reasonably accurate job forecasting the Reds success next season based upon how many hundreds of PAs Willy Taveras receives. Will the Emperor continue to run around butt naked or put some clothes on?

Falls City Beer
07-12-2009, 05:14 PM
John DePodesta would have his hands full with turning the 2009 club into a winner from what was left over of 2008. I'm not saying the club Walt fielded in 2009 was very good, but I think it should be abundantly evident at this point that those who were saying, "But Walt, we're SOOOO close; acquire a hitter or two" are dead, flat-out wrong. This team needs a ton of talent.

Obviously, Jocketty doesn't get much credit because who only threw a paper hat (Taveras, Lincoln, Rhodes, Masset, Nix, and Gomes) into the Grand Canyon of a talent deficit. He was obviously trying to get Dye, but that got short-circuited. It's not an excuse; you need to be able to work with what you got, but clearly there was a priority-shift in late October, early November.

He can do a lot for this club's future at the deadline.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 05:23 PM
If I was in charge, I would fire Jocketty and go after someone like Jed Hoyer, Paul DePodesta, or Chris Antonetti. It's time to go with a different breed of a GM, IMO.

RedEye
07-12-2009, 05:57 PM
If I was in charge, I would fire Jocketty and go after someone like Jed Hoyer, Paul DePodesta, or Chris Antonetti. It's time to go with a different breed of a GM, IMO.

Hear, hear! (Or is it "here, here!"?)

Anyway, I agree 100%. I'm so sick of seeing illogical decisions that cost the roster valuable talent and/or cost the teams wins. Jocketty does seem to be a good people person and a decent enough PR guy, but his moves so far leave much to be desired.

Brutus
07-12-2009, 05:58 PM
If I was in charge, I would fire Jocketty and go after someone like Jed Hoyer, Paul DePodesta, or Chris Antonetti. It's time to go with a different breed of a GM, IMO.

Fire Jocketty? Why? What has he done to warrant being fired?

reds44
07-12-2009, 06:00 PM
No more firing GMs, Jocketty hasn't really done anything that warrants being fired anyway.

Highlifeman21
07-12-2009, 06:14 PM
Good to see more threads like these after we were told there'd be no more threads like these...

Kinda like Bob C. telling us the losing stops now...

Raisor
07-12-2009, 06:15 PM
Jocketty hasn't really done anything

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Fire Jocketty? Why? What has he done to warrant being fired?

That's the problem. He hasn't done much at all. Bobby Abreu, Juan Rivera, Josh Willingham, Nick Swisher ... all those guys were available last season via free agency/trades and Walt did nothing. Instead of pursuing actual talent, he wasted money on guys like Willy Taveras, Jerry Hairston Jr., and Mike Lincoln.

Walt seems like a great guy but I just don't think he's the right man for the job. I'd like to see the Reds bring in a stat-minded GM like Antonetti, DePodesta, or Hoyer.

WMR
07-12-2009, 06:22 PM
I'm afraid we'll be needing a new owner as well before we get any of those GMs.

It would certainly be a delightful change of pace were it to ever happen, however.

Falls City Beer
07-12-2009, 06:23 PM
That's the problem. He hasn't done much at all. Bobby Abreu, Juan Rivera, Josh Willingham, Nick Swisher ... all those guys were available last season via free agency/trades and Walt did nothing. Instead of pursuing actual talent, he wasted money on guys like Willy Taveras, Jerry Hairston Jr., and Mike Lincoln.

Walt seems like a great guy but I just don't think he's the right man for the job. I'd like to see the Reds bring in a stat-minded GM like Antonetti, DePodesta, or Hoyer.

Pick any two of the above hitters you've listed (you can't sign all of them, right? And Rivera wasn't going anywhere): let's say Abreu and Willingham.

Ask yourself: how much better from a RS standpoint would the Reds be right now?

Or is it Walt's fault for not seeing that Bruce would be a replacement level hitter this season?

This team is a failure with many fathers, as it were.

Big Klu
07-12-2009, 09:01 PM
That's the problem. He hasn't done much at all. Bobby Abreu, Juan Rivera, Josh Willingham, Nick Swisher ... all those guys were available last season via free agency/trades and Walt did nothing.

How do you know he did nothing? Maybe he made offers for each of them, but he wasn't willing to overpay, and he didn't want to get in a bidding war.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2009, 09:43 PM
Good to see more threads like these after we were told there'd be no more threads like these...

Kinda like Bob C. telling us the losing stops now...

If you have a problem with the way the site is run or moderated, you can take it up with Boss or GIK via PM or you can post your concerns to the Site Feedback forum.

Keep it out of here.

traderumor
07-12-2009, 09:51 PM
So, we need to fire the owner and the GM? Brilliant! That's right in line with my idea to send everyone with options to the minors and DFA everybody but Votto. Hand over the keys, Bob, you're outta here.

kaldaniels
07-12-2009, 10:11 PM
Pick any two of the above hitters you've listed (you can't sign all of them, right? And Rivera wasn't going anywhere): let's say Abreu and Willingham.

Ask yourself: how much better from a RS standpoint would the Reds be right now?

Or is it Walt's fault for not seeing that Bruce would be a replacement level hitter this season?

This team is a failure with many fathers, as it were.

FCB, in a nutshell what would your plan to improve the Reds be? What players specifically would you keep?

corkedbat
07-12-2009, 10:49 PM
Last thing this teams needs is to be bringing in rentals like Holiday, Rolen, etc. for useable prospects. Not saying don't deal them - just deal them in packages to land better young players.

This team really needs to be looking to deal Harang, Arroyo, EdE, Weathers,Cordero, etc. for any soild return they can get (as long s the return is someone that fits the plan for the next two or three years. Problem is though, is there a plan and if so, have they waited too lonng to move those mentions?

Both are now moot points, because I'm convinced that Jocketty & Castellini will do nothing, but stand pat in fear of looking liek they are fiving up. They'll continue to "sell" the fans that we're still wildcard contenders til the 1st of August and then be stuck. If they do do something, I predict it wiill be something useless like acquiring Atkins for a couple of decent minor leaguers to try and use that to bolster theiir "wildcard dreams".

I'm just praying I don't log in here and see something totally deflating like Frazier & Fischer for Atkins

TheNext44
07-13-2009, 01:53 AM
This won't happen, but here is what I would like to see happen:


Trade prospects to Jay's for Rolen. I would take on half his contract and give them any two minor leaguers not on this list:
Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Stewart, Wood, Frazier, Cozart, Soto, Duran, Y Rodriguez, and Lotzkar.
Rolen basically would be an upgrade defensively over EE. Probably not much better with the bat, but much better with the glove. And he's signed for next year, and would be worth the $5.5 almost on defense alone.

Trade EE and one or two prospects not on the list above to A's for Matt Holliday. This might sound like it's trading the future for now, but let me explain why this is a good move for the future of the team.

If Holliday has a good two months in GABP, he will definitely turn down arbitration next year and the Reds get two draft picks between 15-45. That's a good return for EE and a #10-20 prospect.
If Holliday has a bad two month, he would probably accept arbitration, and the Reds would get a solid cleanup hitter for one year at around $10M next year. Then two prospects if he leaves after that. Or maybe he likes playing in such a hitters park and signs a multi year deal? It won't be cheap because he agent is Satan, but he would be worth it and the Reds need a hitter like him.
EE will cost the Reds $4.75M next year, and they definitely can afford Holliday what ever he gets in arbitration.
He also give the Reds insurance in case Bruce is hurt worse than expected and needs two years to get back to full strength.

Plus these two bats in the lineup afford the Reds to play Janish at SS.

Most importantly, it makes it easier for the Reds to have a winning record this year. This might seem like a silly thing to shoot for, but having them contend to the end really would make a big difference with fans, ticket sales, tv revenue and merchandising, which would allow the Reds to afford better players. And it would give the fans and the players hope for next year. Something the they have not had in a decade.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2009, 01:57 AM
How do you know he did nothing? Maybe he made offers for each of them, but he wasn't willing to overpay, and he didn't want to get in a bidding war.

My thought exactly. I thought it was all-telling that the DeRosa deal fell through because the players offered seems to fit Cleveland better than what we offered. He's out there working, but what he has to give is probably parts nobody wants right now.

Although many here thought Wayne Krivsky was on the right track, I saw nothing but mistakes. You can start with the huge contract extensions to Jerry Narron, Bronson Arroyo, Ryan Freel, Juan Castro, and the signing of Alex Gonzalez (we won't go into the trade because that now seems like a wash for both sides. Only FeLo is still producing and not by much). The Mike Stanton signing. Corey Patterson? Remember when David Ross, Paul Bako and Javier were catching?

Walt has fielded a team with two great catchers, a pretty good pitching staff, and a better fielding team. He was stuck with Gonzo. He's made mistakes. Taveras is one. Hairston is another. Two huge mistakes, but even though it's small steps, we're getting better. Maybe not at the speed we would like, but better. I'm certainly not satisfied, but I'm more satisfied with Jocketty than I was with O'Brien or Krivsky. Like I said, small steps.

RedLegSuperStar
07-13-2009, 08:03 AM
The thing about Matt Holliday and arbitration is that he will recieve anywhere from 12-16 million in arbitration because it is based on his current season and his last season. The economy won't factor into the money Holliday will recieve. This is why the A's want a decent package of 2-4 prospects with at least 2 being comparable to the draft picks. Holliday makes to much sense for this club not to make a deal. Walt said prior to the offseason that Holliday would be a target of this club so he is on or has been on the radar. You know Dusty likes vets over prospects.. :) Holliday can fit nicely in this lineup with Votto, Phillips, and hopefully Bruce if the injury isn't season ending. It's all in the price Walt is willing to pay to net a player of that caliber and with Hollidays stock falling it may save him a prospect. I wouldn't think that a Holliday move would hinder the farm system and I would bet that Walt and Bob would try to keep Holliday rather then letting him walk. I don't think it is about gaining 2 prospects in the 2010 draft.. I think a move to get Holliday would be to solidify this team with a potential run at 2009 and definate chance at 2010.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 09:11 AM
This won't happen, but here is what I would like to see happen:


Trade prospects to Jay's for Rolen. I would take on half his contract and give them any two minor leaguers not on this list:
Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Stewart, Wood, Frazier, Cozart, Soto, Duran, Y Rodriguez, and Lotzkar.
Rolen basically would be an upgrade defensively over EE. Probably not much better with the bat, but much better with the glove. And he's signed for next year, and would be worth the $5.5 almost on defense alone.

Trade EE and one or two prospects not on the list above to A's for Matt Holliday. This might sound like it's trading the future for now, but let me explain why this is a good move for the future of the team.

If Holliday has a good two months in GABP, he will definitely turn down arbitration next year and the Reds get two draft picks between 15-45. That's a good return for EE and a #10-20 prospect.
If Holliday has a bad two month, he would probably accept arbitration, and the Reds would get a solid cleanup hitter for one year at around $10M next year. Then two prospects if he leaves after that. Or maybe he likes playing in such a hitters park and signs a multi year deal? It won't be cheap because he agent is Satan, but he would be worth it and the Reds need a hitter like him.
EE will cost the Reds $4.75M next year, and they definitely can afford Holliday what ever he gets in arbitration.
He also give the Reds insurance in case Bruce is hurt worse than expected and needs two years to get back to full strength.

Plus these two bats in the lineup afford the Reds to play Janish at SS.

Most importantly, it makes it easier for the Reds to have a winning record this year. This might seem like a silly thing to shoot for, but having them contend to the end really would make a big difference with fans, ticket sales, tv revenue and merchandising, which would allow the Reds to afford better players. And it would give the fans and the players hope for next year. Something the they have not had in a decade.

Um, you do realize you are classifying essentially the Reds Top Ten prospects as untouchable?

What in the world makes you think that either the Jays or the A's would be interested in trading those marquee players for suspects? Seriously, are the Jays going to trade Rolen and cash for Chris Valaika? You have to have at least a tiny dose of reality come in to play in these hypotheticals.

westofyou
07-13-2009, 10:09 AM
So, we need to fire the owner and the GM? Brilliant! That's right in line with my idea to send everyone with options to the minors and DFA everybody but Votto. Hand over the keys, Bob, you're outta here.

Firing everyone constantly is always the best way to run a bad business.

I'll pass on reactionary moves myself.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 10:19 AM
Let me add a large dose of reality. Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero are probably completely untradable because of their contracts. Thinking of unloading other large contracts like Gonzalez is laughable. This is the primary constraint, by the way, under which Jocketty has had to operate. Other players like EE, Weathers, Burton, Gomes, Nix, Taveras, Hairston are not exactly guys whom others teams are going to be calling up about either. I can see perhaps a small move involving somebody like Hernandez, Roenicke, Masset. Anything larger will definitely involve at least one of the team's best prospects: Alonso, Stewart, Heisey, Frazier, Wood, Stubbs. (The other guys like Y. Rodriguez, Duran are far too speculative. Anything meaningful is going to involve players who are much more projectable.)

TRF
07-13-2009, 10:24 AM
I'm fixing the Reds right now. New GM... TRF.

I'm sorry Willy, but your services are no longer needed. Oh, we'll pick up your pay for the next year and a half, but please leave the premises.

Chris, this means CF is yours. Don't blow it.

I am pleased to announce that The Reds have agreed to a trade with LAA for Brandon Wood. We are sending Matt Maloney and Josh Roenicke. Wood will join the Reds as we start the second half of the season as the starting SS. Jared Burton will be brought back to take Roenicke's spot in the bullpen.

LF will be a strict Nix/Gomes platoon for the rest of the season, and RF will be manned by Chris Heisey. Heisey, is one of our top prospects and has dominated two levels this year. He's an excellent defender and has some pop in his bat. He's basically getting a jumpstart on possibly being the starting LF next year.

The rotation will sort itself out. Edinson Volquez is progressing in his rehab, and Homer Bailey is doing an outstanding job in his place. It's possible we may make a deal including one of our starters, but I don't see that happening until closer to the deadline.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 10:29 AM
Firing everyone constantly is always the best way to run a bad business.

I'll pass on reactionary moves myself.

x2.

Firing Jocketty is a pretty ridiculous suggestion at this point. Assuming you were going to bring in someone from outside the organization, you would just have to wait another nine months for the new GM to "take stock" of the organization.

If anyone should be fired, it's Baker- but that won't happen either, so there is no use in getting fired up about it (no pun intended.)

What this team needs is some direction, but it is pretty difficult to do the right thing when the owner is resistant to rebuilding. With this owner and the other pieces that are currently in place, they might as well go for it- provided they go for players that will be around beyond this year (ie Rolen, Halladay, etc.)

I still think the most interesting proposal is a blockbuster that includes Arroyo, Encarnacion, Alonso, Wood, and one of the CF prospects for Rolen and Halladay.

The money is close to neutral, the players would make the Reds instant contenders in 2009 and 2010, and the return for the Jays is quite good. Furthermore, all of the parts dealt would be replaceable given the other players in the organization.

If the Jays don't want Encarnacion, play him in LF and offer them Bailey or Stewart instead of Wood. Or you package EE with another player for Holliday- after shedding Arroyo and EE, the Reds still wouldn't be taking on that much additional payroll.

TheNext44
07-13-2009, 10:48 AM
Um, you do realize you are classifying essentially the Reds Top Ten prospects as untouchable?

What in the world makes you think that either the Jays or the A's would be interested in trading those marquee players for suspects? Seriously, are the Jays going to trade Rolen and cash for Chris Valaika? You have to have at least a tiny dose of reality come in to play in these hypotheticals.

Not only do I realize that I did that, I actually stated as much:


and a #10-20 prospect

Rolen is 34 and coming off a series of injuries. That's really important. He has averaged 431 PA's the last 4 years. Teams do not get much these days for older, expensive players, and for good reason.

Basically they get Valaika and another prospect, say Thompson or Maloney, who should provide decent major league production for the next 4-5 years for around $8M, instead of declining production from Rolen for one and half more years for $16M.
If the Reds didn't need a power hitting 3B so badly to help them bridge until Frazier or Francisco are ready, they would choose the former too. That trade is not unrealistic. I guarantee you that if Rolen is traded, it is not for a deal better than that one.

As for Holliday, the Braves got Casey Kotchman last year for Mark Teixieira last year, and he was playing great at the time of the trade. The word from nearly every writer is that no one is offering the A's more than the equivalent of the two draft picks. The offer I made was for a league average, 26 year old 3B and #10-20 prospect. No way they get offered more than that.

Like I said in my original post, I doubt either happen, but I stand by them as being very realistic.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 10:57 AM
Not only do I realize that I did that, I actually stated as much:



Rolen is 34 and coming off a series of injuries. That's really important. He has averaged 431 PA's the last 4 years. Teams do not get much these days for older, expensive players, and for good reason.

Basically they get Valaika and another prospect, say Thompson or Maloney, who should provide decent major league production for the next 4-5 years for around $8M, instead of declining production from Rolen for one and half more years for $16M.
If the Reds didn't need a power hitting 3B so badly to help them bridge until Frazier or Francisco are ready, they would choose the former too. That trade is not unrealistic. I guarantee you that if Rolen is traded, it is not for a deal better than that one.

As for Holliday, the Braves got Casey Kotchman last year for Mark Teixieira last year, and he was playing great at the time of the trade. The word from nearly every writer is that no one is offering the A's more than the equivalent of the two draft picks. The offer I made was for a league average, 26 year old 3B and #10-20 prospect. No way they get offered more than that.

Like I said in my original post, I doubt either happen, but I stand by them as being very realistic.

Well, I was actually the first person on this board to introduce the idea of an EE + prospect for Holliday trade, so I don't think that's quite original. That said, the prospect would have to be significantly better than what you suggest.

As far as the Rolen deal, there is ZERO chance the Jays would even let Walt finish before hanging up the phone if that (Valaika and Thompson) were the proposal. Just wouldn't happen.

mth123
07-13-2009, 11:06 AM
What is the deal with wanting Rolen so much? He was an albatross in St. Louis long enough that it got Walt run out of town. Its a lot of money for a team like the Reds to tie up in an injury waiting to happen. His bat is OK, but his power is waning and his while his defense is still good, I just wouldn't pay money and prospects for him. Get him for something like Maloney or Stubbs and the Jays eating some of the cash then OK, but I don't like the idea of signing up for him in 2010. The Reds aren't the type of team that can afford such gambles. I might be OK with it if the Jays took say Maloney, Willy and Lincoln for him. That would have the effect of the Jays eating about $6 Million of Rolen's deal in 2010. I don't think the Jays would do it though.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 11:18 AM
What is the deal with wanting Rolen so much? He was an albatross in St. Louis long enough that it got Walt run out of town. Its a lot of money for a team like the Reds to tie up in an injury waiting to happen. His bat is OK, but his power is waning and his while his defense is still good, I just wouldn't pay money and prospects for him. Get him for something like Maloney or Stubbs and the Jays eating some of the cash then OK, but I don't like the idea of signing up for him in 2010. The Reds aren't the type of team that can afford such gambles. I might be OK with it if the Jays took say Maloney, Willy and Lincoln for him. That would have the effect of the Jays eating about $6 Million of Rolen's deal in 2010. I don't think the Jays would do it though.

I'm not enamored with Rolen either...

...BUT the Reds have well-documented interest, and I'd like to expand that interest to Roy Halladay- especially if it included swapping out Arroyo's contract. Alonso (Votto), Stubbs/Heisey (Stubbs/Heisey, Dickerson), and Wood (Stewart, Bailey) are all blocked by other players in the organization, so why not parlay them into two significant upgrades to the pitching and defense that would immediately make the Reds serious contenders (if not favorites) to compete for the Pennant in 2009 and 2010?

It seems that Bob's not going to approve any significant rebuilding, so you may as well take the next best option and go for it in these next two years- especially if you are not mortgaging any irreplaceable part of the future.

Highlifeman21
07-13-2009, 11:53 AM
I just hope more than anything we see some kind of roster turnover between now and the end of the season.

This team needs talent, b/c there's currently not a lot of it in the system.

C'mon Walt & Bob, do something

membengal
07-13-2009, 12:00 PM
I'm fixing the Reds right now. New GM... TRF.

I'm sorry Willy, but your services are no longer needed. Oh, we'll pick up your pay for the next year and a half, but please leave the premises.

Chris, this means CF is yours. Don't blow it.

I am pleased to announce that The Reds have agreed to a trade with LAA for Brandon Wood. We are sending Matt Maloney and Josh Roenicke. Wood will join the Reds as we start the second half of the season as the starting SS. Jared Burton will be brought back to take Roenicke's spot in the bullpen.

LF will be a strict Nix/Gomes platoon for the rest of the season, and RF will be manned by Chris Heisey. Heisey, is one of our top prospects and has dominated two levels this year. He's an excellent defender and has some pop in his bat. He's basically getting a jumpstart on possibly being the starting LF next year.

The rotation will sort itself out. Edinson Volquez is progressing in his rehab, and Homer Bailey is doing an outstanding job in his place. It's possible we may make a deal including one of our starters, but I don't see that happening until closer to the deadline.

You're hired.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Why would the Angels trade a guy with the potential to be an everyday player at the hardest position on the field to fill for a starter whose stuff can only be described as marginal at best and an untested reliever?

TRF
07-13-2009, 12:45 PM
Why would the Angels trade a guy with the potential to be an everyday player at the hardest position on the field to fill for a starter whose stuff can only be described as marginal at best and an untested reliever?

Because said player is blocked by Aybar, Izturis and Kendrick? Also because their pitching has been ravaged by injuries, and said SP is a great fit for the AL West? Plus Roenicke would bolster their bullpen.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 01:05 PM
Because said player is blocked by Aybar, Izturis and Kendrick? Also because their pitching has been ravaged by injuries, and said SP is a great fit for the AL West? Plus Roenicke would bolster their bullpen.

What in Maloney's record points to his being a great fit as a SP either in the AL West or any other division?

TRF
07-13-2009, 01:09 PM
What in Maloney's record points to his being a great fit as a SP either in the AL West or any other division?

Well, I'd take him, and I'm a prophet. He can miss bats at a decent clip, is a flyball pitcher and the AL and NL west he quite a few pitchers parks.

It's a good fit.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 01:14 PM
Well, I'd take him, and I'm a prophet. He can miss bats at a decent clip, is a flyball pitcher and the AL and NL west he quite a few pitchers parks.

It's a good fit.

I'm sure the question for Angels management is more like whether he's the best that can be gotten for a guy who projects (if he does) as an everyday shortstop. It doubt Maloney fits that.

TRF
07-13-2009, 01:17 PM
I'm sure the question for Angels management is more like whether he's the best that can be gotten for a guy who projects (if he does) as an everyday shortstop. It doubt Maloney fits that.

Maloney AND Roenicke.

This is the team that has give Dustin Mosely 23 starts over the last 4 seasons. Mosely's minor league numbers are not quite as good as Maloney's, though he was younger.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 02:00 PM
Agree with HokieRed here.

That return would NOT net Brandon Wood. If they were after a young pitcher, they would demand one of the Reds "Big Three" of Bailey, Stewart, or Wood- at least.

TRF
07-13-2009, 02:02 PM
Agree with HokieRed here.

That return would NOT net Brandon Wood. If they were after a young pitcher, they would demand one of the Reds "Big Three" of Bailey, Stewart, or Wood- at least.

It might. Two young arms with some major league experience? there is value in that.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Here's a question: would we go Stewart and Owings for Wood? Angels get some immediate starting pitching help plus a prospect with a great deal more upside than either Roenicke or Maloney. If Wood's as good as TRF thinks, we get an everyday SS.

membengal
07-13-2009, 02:30 PM
That's too much for Wood.

The Angels have held onto Wood so long that he is post-hype, and not worth as much as he once was. He's a cautionary tale in hanging onto prospects too long.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 02:32 PM
Here's a question: would we go Stewart and Owings for Wood? Angels get some immediate starting pitching help plus a prospect with a great deal more upside than either Roenicke or Maloney. If Wood's as good as TRF thinks, we get an everyday SS.

All depends on how sure you are that Wood can stick at SS. If you are convinced, then you probably have to consider it- although that is an awful lot of SP depth to be giving up. Either Stewart or Owings by themselves I would probably do, but together it gets tough.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 02:44 PM
I think that's the kind of return the Angels will be looking for; they're going to put you to the test. If you think Wood's an everyday SS, then a current #5 and a guy with promise but still two years away from a ML rotation is going to seem--to them--about what you ought to be willing to pay. They're not going to give you an everyday SS (which is presumably why you're entering into the conversation for them) for a guy who hasn't been able to crack your top 7 and a reliever with a half dozen ML experiences. (i.e. Maloney and Roenicke)

membengal
07-13-2009, 02:48 PM
They might have gotten that two years ago. I don't think they can get that now. They waited too long.

Will M
07-13-2009, 02:52 PM
I think that's the kind of return the Angels will be looking for; they're going to put you to the test. If you think Wood's an everyday SS, then a current #5 and a guy with promise but still two years away from a ML rotation is going to seem--to them--about what you ought to be willing to pay. They're not going to give you an everyday SS (which is presumably why you're entering into the conversation for them) for a guy who hasn't been able to crack your top 7 and a reliever with a half dozen ML experiences. (i.e. Maloney and Roenicke)

just my 2 cents but we may be over valuing Wood. after all he has been around AAA/majors for ~3-4 years and can't get ahead of Aybar, Izturis, Kendrick & Figgins on the Angels depth chart.

personally I'll take any of the Angels 3 shortstops over what we have currently

Benihana
07-13-2009, 02:59 PM
just my 2 cents but we may be over valuing Wood. after all he has been around AAA/majors for ~3-4 years and can't get ahead of Aybar, Izturis, Kendrick & Figgins on the Angels depth chart.

personally I'll take any of the Angels 3 shortstops over what we have currently

Agree.

I would only consider a trade like that if I was positive Wood is the SS of the future (which implies that he can stick there.) Even still, that would be an incredibly steep price to pay.

I'd guess one of Owings/Stewart and a lesser prospect (or a guy like Roenicke/Burton) might be able to get it done.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 03:32 PM
They might have gotten that two years ago. I don't think they can get that now. They waited too long.


Why are you calling them up then? Are you looking for a utility infielder?

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 03:36 PM
Agree.

I would only consider a trade like that if I was positive Wood is the SS of the future (which implies that he can stick there.) Even still, that would be an incredibly steep price to pay.

I'd guess one of Owings/Stewart and a lesser prospect (or a guy like Roenicke/Burton) might be able to get it done.

All right, let's try this. Do you go Owings and Roenicke for Wood? And I assume that the fact you called the Angels up means you're looking for an everyday SS, not a utility infielder. (Remember TRF began this negotiation by proposing a trade, presumably for an everyday SS, not another Danny Richar or Chris Valaika).

membengal
07-13-2009, 03:38 PM
Why are you calling them up then? Are you looking for a utility infielder?

No. Just because they waited too long to get off the pot, doesn't mean that he can't play. But it does mean that they can't expect to get the same kind of return they could have if they had been decisive with him a few years ago. The Angels do a lot of things well, but moving their prospects from point A to point B isn't one of them.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 03:39 PM
All right, let's try this. Do you go Owings and Roenicke for Wood? And I assume that the fact you called the Angels up means you're looking for an everyday SS, not a utility infielder. (Remember TRF began this negotiation by proposing a trade, presumably for an everyday SS, not another Danny Richar or Chris Valaika).

To be honest with you, I haven't personally seen enough of Wood's defense to have a good feel for whether or not he can stay at SS long-term. Regardless however, he is not another Valaika or Richar because his stick can play at 3B.

To answer your question- I would do Owings and Roenicke if I am confident that he can stay at SS. I don't personally know the answer to that, but the Reds should (having a professional scouting department and all.) If the answer is yes, then I do that deal everyday of the week. If the answer is no (Wood can't stay at SS), I'd still consider it, especially if they're convinced that Frazier is a LF- but it's much less of a no-brainer.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 03:42 PM
No. Just because they waited too long to get off the pot, doesn't mean that he can't play. But it does mean that they can't expect to get the same kind of return they could have if they had been decisive with him a few years ago. The Angels do a lot of things well, but moving their prospects from point A to point B isn't one of them.

Agreed. If you need another example, think of Homer Bailey's trade value earlier this season. He still has/had a LOT of potential, but his trade value wasn't as high as it was a year or two ago. The same could be said for Wood.

TRF
07-13-2009, 03:45 PM
I'd offer Maloney and Roenicke. That's two arms. If they want my #5 starter that has a sub 5.00 (barely) ERA and has 3 HR's and an .811 OPS as a hitter, then I get an arm in return. A ball SP, at least a B prospect.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 04:14 PM
No. Just because they waited too long to get off the pot, doesn't mean that he can't play. But it does mean that they can't expect to get the same kind of return they could have if they had been decisive with him a few years ago. The Angels do a lot of things well, but moving their prospects from point A to point B isn't one of them.

Let me suggest that they're not going to buy any of this logic. They're going to tell you he's a potential everyday SS and say further that that is presumably why you called them up. And then they're going to make you pay accordingly. And that will be, IMO, at least Owings and Roenicke. Your organization's #7 starter, Maloney, won't even get you into the conversation.

membengal
07-13-2009, 04:24 PM
Who knows?

They are not in the same position they once were on Wood. Through their own fault. So you call and you ask. And they say that in return, and then you counter. Either it works out or it doesn't. IF they still value him like that, then you pass. If they embrace the reality they have helped to create by waiting too long to do somthing on Wood, then perhaps something gets done.

But I think, in your scenario, you and your hypothetical Angels team are valuing too high an asset that was left to whither on the vine a bit, causing it to be less valuable than it once was.

M2
07-13-2009, 04:33 PM
yep, time to unload

I'll be amazed if Harang is still in a Reds uniform on August 1.

The real question is whether the club will shop Brandon Phillips. The Giants, Cubs, Angels and Twins have a screaming need for 2B help.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 04:41 PM
I'll be amazed if Harang is still in a Reds uniform on August 1.

I won't be. I think some payroll's going to get dumped, but I doubt it's Harang.

Kc61
07-13-2009, 04:48 PM
I won't be. I think some payroll's going to get dumped, but I doubt it's Harang.

I think it's likely to be Arroyo or Harang. More likely to be Arroyo, especially if he's in one of his "hot" periods. Maybe he will be after the shutout Friday.

Cordero won't be traded, there's no replacement handy.

There's no other major salary to move. They can trade a couple of smaller salaries but that doesn't do much for them without the cost savings of Arroyo or Harang.

Would be shocked if they moved Phillips. The team has so little offense how do they move one of their better hitters?

Reds wouldn't get a lot back for Harang or Arroyo except a prospect or two and payflex. At some point presumably they would apply the cost savings to acquiring a player who can hit the baseball occasionally.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 04:49 PM
I think it's likely to be Arroyo or Harang. More likely to be Arroyo, especially if he's in one of his "hot" periods. Maybe he will be after the shutout Friday.

Cordero won't be traded, there's no replacement handy.

There's no other major salary to move. They can trade a couple of smaller salaries but that doesn't do much for them without the cost savings of Arroyo or Harang.

Reds wouldn't get a lot back for Harang or Arroyo except a prospect or two and payflex. At some point presumably they would apply the cost savings to acquiring a player who can hit the baseball occasionally.

If Jocketty can't get a good bat for Harang at the deadline, he probably should retire.

corkedbat
07-13-2009, 04:49 PM
Agree.

I would only consider a trade like that if I was positive Wood is the SS of the future (which implies that he can stick there.) Even still, that would be an incredibly steep price to pay.

I'd guess one of Owings/Stewart and a lesser prospect (or a guy like Roenicke/Burton) might be able to get it done.

No way I would include Stewart in a deal hor a SS who is arguably no better than Zach Cozart

Jpup
07-13-2009, 04:52 PM
If Jocketty can't get a good bat for Harang at the deadline, he probably should retire.

What should Walt do if he does nothing? Should he retire then too? I just don't see Harang, Phillips, or any of the "veterans" being traded. I don't think they want to give the impression of a fire sale.

VR
07-13-2009, 04:57 PM
Harang and Arroyo have both shown significant decline the past two years, and are gettting paid to produce otherwise. With an up an coming farm system....they both should be turned for immediate needs.

They have both had very good success, but the Reds can't afford to be paying that kind of coin unless its for Roy Halladay or Jake Peavy.

Kc61
07-13-2009, 04:58 PM
If Jocketty can't get a good bat for Harang at the deadline, he probably should retire.

I guess. Reds may prefer to take, say, two prospects, one a good hitting prospect and one a young shortstop, for example.

M2
07-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Pick any two of the above hitters you've listed (you can't sign all of them, right? And Rivera wasn't going anywhere): let's say Abreu and Willingham.

Ask yourself: how much better from a RS standpoint would the Reds be right now?

Abreu would be worth about 30 more runs to the offense right now (provided the club played Dickerson in CF and skipped the Taveras experiment), could be more dependent on park factors.

TRF
07-13-2009, 05:00 PM
No way I would include Stewart in a deal hor a SS who is arguably no better than Zach Cozart

Brandon Wood career minor league numbers:

.287 .355 .544 .899

At AAA this year he posted .313 .367 .592 .959 at age 24.

Zack Cozart career minor league numbers:

.272 .337 .427 764

At AA this year he has posted .281 .372 .444 .816 at age 23.

I'd say offensively Wood is better, but Cozart is supposed to be a plus defender. That said, he's likely another year away.

M2
07-13-2009, 05:01 PM
I won't be. I think some payroll's going to get dumped, but I doubt it's Harang.

Whatever Jocketty asks on Arroyo other GMs will tell him that he can't get unless he makes it Harang.

Kc61
07-13-2009, 05:04 PM
Whatever Jocketty asks on Arroyo other GMs will tell him that he can't get unless he makes it Harang.


So Reds call their bluff and it's Harang. Look at the Reds' outfield. They need to acquire somebody, even if it takes Harang. The rotation will be Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Arroyo, Owings until the next young guys are ready -- Stewart and Wood. Maybe Lecure. With Maloney able to pitch if needed.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Abreu would be worth about 30 more runs to the offense right now (provided the club played Dickerson in CF and skipped the Taveras experiment), could be more dependent on park factors.

In other words, they're still a TOR starting pitcher short.

I wouldn't have had a problem with getting Abreu for what he was paid, but I think it's probably time to face the fact that in terms of talent on the 25-man and in the minors, the Reds are only the 4th deepest team in their own division. As jojo has mentioned, this team is just plum short on talent--far more than even one really amazing offseason was going to fix. Add in the fact that the Reds' budget got hacked down to recession austerity, and Jocketty didn't stand a chance this season.

No GM would have. It's time to put to rest the narrative that says this team was "*this* close." They weren't at all.

M2
07-13-2009, 05:15 PM
So Reds call their bluff and it's Harang.

I don't think it will be a bluff, which is why I suspect a Harang deal gets made.

TRF
07-13-2009, 05:16 PM
So Reds call their bluff and it's Harang. Look at the Reds' outfield. They need to acquire somebody, even if it takes Harang. The rotation will be Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Arroyo, Owings until the next young guys are ready -- Stewart and Wood. Maybe Lecure. With Maloney able to pitch if needed.


no, I already traded Maloney to get Brandon Wood.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:16 PM
If I never get to see Maloney pitch again it'd be too soon.

TRF
07-13-2009, 05:19 PM
If I never get to see Maloney pitch again it'd be too soon.

And yet his first starts in the show were miles better than Volquez, Bailey, and Arroyo. He does give up the gopher ball, but he can miss bats too. He has value to the Reds even if only via trade.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 05:20 PM
I don't think it will be a bluff, which is why I suspect a Harang deal gets made.

If that is the case, the return better include at least one arm and one or two names from the list below-

Jesus Montero
Phil Hughes
Michael Taylor
JA Happ
Matt Kemp
Alcides Escobar


Otherwise, I'm not trading Harang and I wouldn't be surprised if Walt/BC agree with me.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:21 PM
He has value to the Reds even if only via trade.

I don't disagree with this.

But that guy looked like a baby seal facing the poacher's bat. No thanks.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 05:22 PM
If I never get to see Maloney pitch again it'd be too soon.

He's certainly no PJ Walters, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Kc61
07-13-2009, 05:22 PM
And yet his first starts in the show were miles better than Volquez, Bailey, and Arroyo. He does give up the gopher ball, but he can miss bats too. He has value to the Reds even if only via trade.

A shrewd GM for the Mets, Giants, Padres or other team in a large, pitchers' ballpark could probably acquire Maloney for not too much and have a real good pitcher.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:23 PM
A shrewd GM for the Mets, Giants, Padres or other team in a large, pitchers' ballpark could probably acquire Maloney for not too much and have a real good pitcher.

Uh-huh.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:24 PM
He's certainly no PJ Walters, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Who?

Benihana
07-13-2009, 05:26 PM
Who?

Your Cardinals equivalent. Figured you'd always opt for the Cardinals version, so he's their version of Maloney.

24 years old. 1 major league start. 14 IP, 7 BB, 7.71 ERA.

Every team has a fringe major leaguer/spot starter. I see nothing wrong with Maloney assuming that role if he can't be traded for value.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:27 PM
Your Cardinals equivalent. Figured you'd always opt for the Cardinals version, so he's their version of Maloney.

24 years old. 1 major league start. 14 IP, 7 BB, 7.71 ERA.

Every team has a fringe major leaguer/spot starter. I see nothing wrong with Maloney assuming that role if he can't be traded for value.

Looks like similar crap to me.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2009, 05:29 PM
The only way I trade Harang is if I get knocked over with a huge offer. I prefer to hang on to Harang and enter 2010 with a 1-4 of Aaron Harang, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, and Homer Bailey. This team isn't that far from contending, IMO. Upgrade SS/LF, maybe find another arm, replace Taveras with Dickerson/Heisey, and this team will be ready to contend next season, IMO.

M2
07-13-2009, 05:31 PM
In other words, they're still a TOR starting pitcher short.

I wouldn't have had a problem with getting Abreu for what he was paid, but I think it's probably time to face the fact that in terms of talent on the 25-man and in the minors, the Reds are only the 4th deepest team in their own division. As jojo has mentioned, this team is just plum short on talent--far more than even one really amazing offseason was going to fix. Add in the fact that the Reds' budget got hacked down to recession austerity, and Jocketty didn't stand a chance this season.

No GM would have. It's time to put to rest the narrative that says this team was "*this* close." They weren't at all.

I agree the Reds needed to make about half a dozen moves and only made the two that should have been at the end of the laundry list (Rhodes and Hernandez).

That said, Abreu would have been a major asset to this club. I've never been one for the argument that the Reds shouldn't have made a good move because it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Just fold the team if that's your take. The correct answer is the club should keep making smart moves until finally it does matter.

Of course, as you can see from my posts in this thread, I expect the Reds to make self-disfiguring moves rather than improvements. The team doesn't have to do that, but I'm guessing it will choose that route.

TRF
07-13-2009, 05:31 PM
A shrewd GM for the Mets, Giants, Padres or other team in a large, pitchers' ballpark could probably acquire Maloney for not too much and have a real good pitcher.

I completely agree with this, and would add Detroit, Seattle and the Dodgers. K rates translate, and Maloney can miss bats.

M2
07-13-2009, 05:36 PM
If that is the case, the return better include at least one arm and one or two names from the list below-

Jesus Montero
Phil Hughes
Michael Taylor
JA Happ
Matt Kemp
Alcides Escobar

Otherwise, I'm not trading Harang and I wouldn't be surprised if Walt/BC agree with me.

You've got high standards. Standards I agree with (actually Kemp might be the only guy on that list I'd move Harang for). The Reds don't have such standards. Attendance is down and Harang costs money. They'll find a way to justify moving him for a whole lot less.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:38 PM
I agree the Reds needed to make about half a dozen moves and only made the two that should have been at the end of the laundry list (Rhodes and Hernandez).

That said, Abreu would have been a major asset to this club. I've never been one for the argument that the Reds shouldn't have made a good move because it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Just fold the team if that's your take. The correct answer is the club should keep making smart moves until finally it does matter.

Of course, as you can see from my posts in this thread, I expect the Reds to make self-disfiguring moves rather than improvements. The team doesn't have to do that, but I'm guessing it will choose that route.

Of course you have to add talent, but Abreu would rank with the Aurilia move of the DanO tenure in relevance.

This team needs to make trades that really hurt in the near-term. Blockbusters can't be counted on anymore. This is going to be some hard slog for a while. But I see no reason whatsoever not to trust Jocketty's eye over the long term.

There's one person who's hurting Harang's return value right now and it ain't the FO.

M2
07-13-2009, 05:51 PM
Of course you have to add talent, but Abreu would rank with the Aurilia move of the DanO tenure in relevance.

That's beyond preposterous. If acquiring good players is irrelevant then your club needs to disappear.


This team needs to make trades that really hurt in the near-term. Blockbusters can't be counted on anymore. This is going to be some hard slog for a while. But I see no reason whatsoever not to trust Jocketty's eye over the long term.

I doubt Jocketty's around for the long term. Honestly, you think he's looking to do a five-year plan? Walt's walking away from this job if all it offers is endless frustration.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 05:56 PM
I doubt Jocketty's around for the long term. Honestly, you think he's looking to do a five-year plan? Walt's walking away from this job if all it offers is endless frustration.

You might be right. Like I said, he might walk away if he's getting so pinched by payroll there's no room for growth.

Let's be honest: it's going to take a gargantuan spike in payroll to put a winner on the field if Walt's looking to contend now. They are very, very far away from a winner, and the only quick fixes are going to come with big price tags.

You could be very right; in which case, it was idiotic of Castellini to hire him.

M2
07-13-2009, 06:12 PM
You might be right. Like I said, he might walk away if he's getting so pinched by payroll there's no room for growth.

Let's be honest: it's going to take a gargantuan spike in payroll to put a winner on the field if Walt's looking to contend now. They are very, very far away from a winner, and the only quick fixes are going to come with big price tags.

You could be very right; in which case, it was idiotic of Castellini to hire him.

Money helps, but don't discount enterprise. Mind you, the Reds are too lethargic to be all that enterprising.

Ultimately I think the problem with Krivsky was he was too active and Castellini couldn't understand why all that work didn't result in immediate success.

Benihana
07-13-2009, 06:14 PM
Money helps, but don't discount enterprise. Mind you, the Reds are too lethargic to be all that enterprising.

Ultimately I think the problem with Krivsky was he was too active and Castellini couldn't understand why all that work didn't result in immediate success.

Agreed. So far I'd take too active over too static.

Jocketty's tenure thus far has been more like the O'Brien era than the Krivsky era, at least in terms of movement. If something doesn't happen by the end of the month, I'm going to be annoyed.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Money helps, but don't discount enterprise. Mind you, the Reds are too lethargic to be all that enterprising.

Ultimately I think the problem with Krivsky was he was too active and Castellini couldn't understand why all that work didn't result in immediate success.

Name a team outside of TB who has been truly moving their team forward consistently with scant payroll.

Don't say the Brewers because they're simply miles ahead on the same timetable the Reds are on (the "build a farm and wait forever" model that the Twins followed). They made a rental move, but that's not the same thing as bending the universe to their will like Tampa's done.

Seriously, name a team in the last few seasons that has made quantum leaps ahead without adding payroll.

If you're arguing they should be TB, I have no counterargument. I agree.

wheels
07-13-2009, 06:22 PM
The only way the Reds could net a talent infusion the likes of which some say is needed would be a fire sale.

Bold moves build contenders. Either they spend some cash to pump up what they have, or ship the vets out in the hopes they don't roll craps on the return.

I'm not sure what course I favor just yet.

Balking at adding to the club in a substantial way over the winter would suggest that they don't have much in the way of funds (that, or Walt's just stupid, and I highly doubt that), and I don't really know Walt's track record in regards to being a seller rather than a buyer.

You'd think Harang and Phillips could virtually sell themselves, though.

It's gonna be interesting. I'm just not sure it's going to be a lot of fun.

Caveat Emperor
07-13-2009, 07:20 PM
They are very, very far away from a winner, and the only quick fixes are going to come with big price tags.

Hyperbole of the worst sort. Really, it's not nearly as bad as some people on here would make it out to be.

This is a roughly .500 ballclub with an injury to a frontline starting pitcher, 30 games missed from the best bat on the team, and, with the exception of maybe Nick Massett and Chris Dickerson, no one seriously overperforming their talent level.

This team isn't "very, very far away from a winner" -- they've got a bit of work to do, but let's not pretend this is the '03 Reds they're trying to rebuild.

HokieRed
07-13-2009, 07:27 PM
On Harang and Arroyo, I hope some of you guys are right and there are teams out there waiting to trade for them. I doubt this. Both are hugely overpriced in today's economy, IMO. I don't see anybody taking them off our hands for any more than salary relief. If Walt can get that, he'll have to be thankful and take it. But I don't see him getting even that.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 07:54 PM
Hyperbole of the worst sort.

This is a roughly .500 ballclub with an injury to a frontline starting pitcher, 30 games missed from the best bat on the team, and, with the exception of maybe Nick Massett and Chris Dickerson, no one seriously overperforming their talent level.

This team isn't "very, very far away from a winner" -- they've got a bit of work to do, but let's not pretend this is the '03 Reds they're trying to rebuild.

This team needs two big time bats and at least one TOR starter. AND for Volquez to be the 2008 Volquez on top of that.

That's a ton of talent in this current market. No one garnered near that much in the offseason among the under-$100-million-payroll set. Not even close.

And I'm not worried about the overperformers; I'm way more worried about the underperformers (Bruce and EE). This team can start to make noise when a few of their minor league hitters decide they can put it together at the same time. I thought Bruce would make a Votto-like jump; he didn't. The point is that farm progress tends to be staggered, not simultaneous. So in order to make a singular push next season, it's going to take a lot of FA talent.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 07:55 PM
On Harang and Arroyo, I hope some of you guys are right and there are teams out there waiting to trade for them. I doubt this. Both are hugely overpriced in today's economy, IMO. I don't see anybody taking them off our hands for any more than salary relief. If Walt can get that, he'll have to be thankful and take it. But I don't see him getting even that.

I'm not terribly sanguine on Harang, but I think he still possesses a decent amount trade cachet.

Caveat Emperor
07-13-2009, 08:28 PM
This team needs two big time bats and at least one TOR starter. AND for Volquez to be the 2008 Volquez on top of that.

Disagree.

A TOR starter would be nice, but if Volquez is '08 Volquez, the Reds would enter next season with 3 pitchers with TOR stuff (Volquez, Cueto, Bailey). Not a lot of teams in baseball carry 4 TOR starters -- there aren't enough of them out there and they cost too much money to keep.

Concentrate on getting a 200IP guy at 4.25 to replace what Arroyo's given this team over the last few seasons. A "glue" guy that eats innings and gives his team a chance to win every 5th day. That's a more realistic goal and saves money for the offensive improvements.

The shopping list you have for the team is simply unrealistic and not needed. The team is playing close to .500 ball without what you've described. Two big bats alone would push the run differential into the black. Two big bats plus a 200 IP 4.50 guy would push the team firmly into the black and well into contention. Two big bats, plus a 200 IP 4.50 guy, plus '08 Volquez would have the team running away with the division right now. Add in Jay Bruce hitting .250 instead of .200 -- well, you get the idea.

GAC
07-13-2009, 09:34 PM
This team will advance a long way offensively when they can get the "ship" called Jay Bruce righted to complement Votto. It will help a lot.

And fire Jocketty? Give me a break! You have to give GMs a chance. I get so tired of many on this forum who want GMs fired after only approximately 1 year on the job.

Depodesta? If Depodesta was so great, or in such demand as a GM, then how come his tenure in LA was so short-lived (approximately 20 months)? I'm really tired of hearing how great of a GM this guy would be when he hasn't proven it. Why, when he left LA, didn't another organization immediately grab this guy as their GM? He's now an assistant in S.D. That doesn't mean he won't get another shot at a GM position in the future; but I'm not so sold on this guy just because he's a stat guy. There is far more to being a GM then just that lone angle.

M2
07-13-2009, 09:36 PM
Seriously, name a team in the last few seasons that has made quantum leaps ahead without adding payroll.

If you're arguing they should be TB, I have no counterargument. I agree.

The Rays have jumped from $24M in payroll to $63M in just two years. They are just about the worst example of what you're talking about.

The Giants have cut payroll slightly in the past couple of years. Given how lousy their offense is, I'm reluctant to say they've arrived in a meaningful way, but they are spending less and winning more.

It's really not so much a matter of adding payroll to find talent. You really add payroll to keep talent. That's what makes the Twins so unique. Maybe the Brewers or Rays will be able to get on a run for a decade consistently paying tens of millions below the league average, but that's a hard road to travel.

Ultimately the Reds may need to spend $90M to extend a run, but the club could get over the initial hump for less than $80M.

Falls City Beer
07-13-2009, 09:52 PM
Ultimately the Reds may need to spend $90M to extend a run, but the club could get over the initial hump for less than $80M.

They've got to shed a lot of crap (and probably some "non-crap" like Cordero) to do that.

Me, I think they've got plenty of money to spend but aren't doing it.

Okay, yes, the Rays have "added" payroll--what they've done is lock down central pieces. And 63 million is pretty small potatoes. They can do a whole lot now that won't require raising the payroll now that they've locked down their farmhands and Kazmir.

In order for the Reds to have the same level of talent as the Rays by next season, they'd have to add (through FA) almost certainly $30 million. And that's a pretty conservative estimate.

Highlifeman21
07-13-2009, 10:26 PM
If that is the case, the return better include at least one arm and one or two names from the list below-

Jesus Montero
Phil Hughes
Michael Taylor
JA Happ
Matt Kemp
Alcides Escobar


Otherwise, I'm not trading Harang and I wouldn't be surprised if Walt/BC agree with me.


We won't see any of those 6 names coming to Cincy for Aaron Harang.

Highlifeman21
07-13-2009, 10:27 PM
A shrewd GM for the Mets, Giants, Padres or other team in a large, pitchers' ballpark could probably acquire Maloney for not too much and have a real good pitcher.

Anyone could acquire Maloney for not too much and have a crappy pitcher.

No one's knocking down the Reds' door wanting Maloney...

corkedbat
07-14-2009, 12:46 AM
Brandon Wood career minor league numbers:

.287 .355 .544 .899

At AAA this year he posted .313 .367 .592 .959 at age 24.

Zack Cozart career minor league numbers:

.272 .337 .427 764

At AA this year he has posted .281 .372 .444 .816 at age 23.

I'd say offensively Wood is better, but Cozart is supposed to be a plus defender. That said, he's likely another year away.

I still wouldn't deal a Stewart for him. I see Stewart as a solid starting prospect capable of keeping the ball on the ground and out of the GAB jet stream. I see he and maybe Leake as nice compliments to Volquez and Cueto in the Reds rotation in a couple of years along with Bailey or Wood.

By the end of next season, I wouldn't mind seeing:

Cueto
Volquez
Wood
Stewart
Bailey

Ron Madden
07-14-2009, 03:28 AM
The only way the Reds could net a talent infusion the likes of which some say is needed would be a fire sale.

Bold moves build contenders. Either they spend some cash to pump up what they have, or ship the vets out in the hopes they don't roll craps on the return.

I'm not sure what course I favor just yet.

Balking at adding to the club in a substantial way over the winter would suggest that they don't have much in the way of funds (that, or Walt's just stupid, and I highly doubt that), and I don't really know Walt's track record in regards to being a seller rather than a buyer.

You'd think Harang and Phillips could virtually sell themselves, though.

It's gonna be interesting. I'm just not sure it's going to be a lot of fun.

Agreed.

I'm very much of the same train of thought as Wheels on this one, only difference being I wouldn't call trading Arroyo or Harang a fire sale.

redsfandan
07-14-2009, 09:13 AM
This team needs two big time bats and at least one TOR starter. AND for Volquez to be the 2008 Volquez on top of that.

... So in order to make a singular push next season, it's going to take a lot of FA talent.
I'll disagree with that assessment. The Reds need to figure out what they'll do in left and at short. That's it. We'll have in house options for center. I'd be shocked if we have as much missed time next year as we have this year at 1st base, 3rd base, and rightfield. And call me crazy but I still think Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Bailey, Owings can get the job done. The Reds have been cursed by injuries, missed time due to other things, and inexperience this year. It's just not as bleak as you make it out to be.

Disagree.

A TOR starter would be nice, but if Volquez is '08 Volquez, the Reds would enter next season with 3 pitchers with TOR stuff (Volquez, Cueto, Bailey). Not a lot of teams in baseball carry 4 TOR starters -- there aren't enough of them out there and they cost too much money to keep.

Concentrate on getting a 200IP guy at 4.25 to replace what Arroyo's given this team over the last few seasons. A "glue" guy that eats innings and gives his team a chance to win every 5th day. That's a more realistic goal and saves money for the offensive improvements.
We wouldn't have to look too far for that. Harang fits the bill in that scenario. Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Bailey, & Owings works for me


It's really not so much a matter of adding payroll to find talent. You really add payroll to keep talent. That's what makes the Twins so unique. Maybe the Brewers or Rays will be able to get on a run for a decade consistently paying tens of millions below the league average, but that's a hard road to travel.
Bingo. Trading for someone like Holliday or Halladay and then locking them up to a long term contract would make it hard to lock up the players we have now that we want to keep. Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Bruce ... you HAVE to plan on what it will take to lock them up when the time comes. We can't just pretend that day won't come and we can't pretend the Reds will spend more then they will. We'll probably be able to afford 1 good bat. Dye has an option for 2010. If it's not picked up he could work in left for a season (until Alonso, Frazier, etc are ready) and he'd be cheaper than Holliday. I bet there'll be other options as well. Just because there will be an outfielder available wanting $20m doesn't mean we HAVE to have him to compete. The core of this team is young. With time those young players will get better. Add an outfielder with a good bat, a decent ss, and alot better luck and we'll be ok.

TRF
07-14-2009, 09:21 AM
The Reds need an impact SS, one that defends AND hits.

The Reds need common sense in CF. We all know what that means.

The Reds need Jay Bruce to get his wrist healed and his head right.

The Reds need EE to be 80% of the player he's been the last week at the plate, but I'd take 100%.

The Reds need this to be the real Homer Bailey.

And for 2010, the Reds need one of Dorn, Heisey, Frazier or even Stubbs to go all Adam Dunn for the rest of 2009.

With the exception of the last one of those needs, none are impossible or even improbable. The last one is only improbable.

2 of these things require thought by the FO, thought they haven't at least to us seem to have considered.

The other four are in the hands of the players.

redsfandan
07-14-2009, 09:27 AM
I'll take an impact ss that can defend AND hit. But I don't think we'll end up with both a ss like that and an impact bat in left via FA, trade or in house. Maybe one of the prospects will be able to take over in left. But is there really going to be a ss available like that? One that doesn't have any question marks. I think it may be easier to find a good bat for left and get a ss that can be at least average offensively with good defense.

TRF
07-14-2009, 09:52 AM
I'll take an impact ss that can defend AND hit. But I don't think we'll end up with both a ss like that and an impact bat in left via FA, trade or in house. Maybe one of the prospects will be able to take over in left. But is there really going to be a ss available like that? One that doesn't have any question marks. I think it may be easier to find a good bat for left and get a ss that can be at least average offensively with good defense.

<cough>Brandon Wood</cough>

bucksfan2
07-14-2009, 09:54 AM
The Reds need an impact SS, one that defends AND hits.

So is the rest of baseball. Impact SS that hit and defend aren't going to be traded and will sign huge contracts.


The Reds need common sense in CF. We all know what that means.

I have a feeling we will see Dickerson get more and more PT and Stubbs is in the on deck circle. If Taveras doesn't log much PT the Reds are well above average at this position


The Reds need Jay Bruce to get his wrist healed and his head right.

Yup. Us fans may have had too high of expectations for Bruce this season. So far it has been painful to watch him play. Maybe this time off will help him clear his head and develop a better approach at the plate.



The Reds need EE to be 80% of the player he's been the last week at the plate, but I'd take 100%.

I don't expect anything from Edwin. Anything out of him is icing on the cake. IMO it is put up or shut up time for Edwin. He he struggles down the stretch of the season I think the Reds will deal him.


The Reds need this to be the real Homer Bailey.

What is the real HoBail? If he is anything like his last two starts he may be the ace of the staff going into next year.



And for 2010, the Reds need one of Dorn, Heisey, Frazier or even Stubbs to go all Adam Dunn for the rest of 2009.

They need someone who can be a slightly above average LF at the plate and a good defender.


With the exception of the last one of those needs, none are impossible or even improbable. The last one is only improbable.

2 of these things require thought by the FO, thought they haven't at least to us seem to have considered.

The other four are in the hands of the players.

The FO needs to earn their keep. They need to make this organization better as a whole. They need to make this team better going into the second half of the season but also into 2010. They need to do what is right, whether or not the fans agree with it.

TRF
07-14-2009, 11:06 AM
bucksfan2,

Brandon Wood is there for the taking. Walt should be calling the Angels for him as they don't see him as the guy anywhere on the diamond.

While an OF of Dickerson/Stubbs and next year Bruce would be outstanding defensively, offensively it's below average. Someone from the minor leagues needs to see this and step up their game. There really is one spot available once the FO realizes that Dickerson is the guy for CF.

I have huge expectations for EE the rest of the season. I'll predict right now, .850+ OPS 12 HR's and a .295 BA the rest of the season.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 11:21 AM
I think we already have our SS for next year. He's currently on the DL, though.

I(heart)Freel
07-14-2009, 11:27 AM
I think we already have our SS for next year. He's currently on the DL, though.

Mike Lincoln?

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 11:29 AM
Give Walt the twenty million or so in additional payroll room that Wayne had, and I'd like the Reds' chances next season. That would mean Walt would only have to shed one of the idiotic contracts that Wayne signed.

Will M
07-14-2009, 11:30 AM
I think we already have our SS for next year. He's currently on the DL, though.

no way. Gonzo has an OPS+ of 46 this year after missing all of 2008.
The Reds can buy him out for $500K or keep him for $6M.
Easy decision.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 11:35 AM
no way. Gonzo has an OPS+ of 46 this year after missing all of 2008.
The Reds can buy him out for $500K or keep him for $6M.
Easy decision.


They can (and probably will) buy him out then sign him to a deal for less money. $3M maybe $4M a year. Probably no more than a 1 year deal.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 11:35 AM
This single-minded craving for an elite fielding and hitting shortstop is more than a little overplayed. Yes, I would like that, but the Reds could make much better use of their thin payroll space by improving the offense at other positions and finding a defensive whiz for SS.

bucksfan2
07-14-2009, 11:46 AM
Brandon Wood is there for the taking. Walt should be calling the Angels for him as they don't see him as the guy anywhere on the diamond.

With almost all of MLB looking for SS help the Brandon Wood case is interesting. It looks as Aybar has vaulted ahead of him in the Angles organization and Wood has spend most of this season in AAA ball. Either the trade demands for Wood have been way too high, or the rest of baseball just doesn't think he can hack it at SS. It is even more interesting that with all the pitching injury problems that the Angles have gone through that Wood still sits in AAA ball and not on someone else roster. It makes me think that he isn't out there for the taking.


While an OF of Dickerson/Stubbs and next year Bruce would be outstanding defensively, offensively it's below average. Someone from the minor leagues needs to see this and step up their game. There really is one spot available once the FO realizes that Dickerson is the guy for CF.

Maybe the FO doesn't think Dickerson is the CF of the future? Maybe they think Stubbs will be a better all around player. Again they have seen him develop and have seen his abilities much more in depth than either you or I have. An OF of Dickerson, Stubbs, Bruce, and Heisey next year may be below average, but with the exception of Bruce, it they may find their way to first base quite often. With Votto having a good bat at 1B, the potential of Bruce in RF, the top 5 positional bat of Phillips IMO the Reds need one more bat. Whether that be 3b or LF a good hitter could take this Reds team places. That is why I was a proponent of trading for Rolen. When he is on the field he would help this team out offensively and defensively.


I have huge expectations for EE the rest of the season. I'll predict right now, .850+ OPS 12 HR's and a .295 BA the rest of the season.

And unfortunately I see failure written all over Edwin. I hope I am wrong but I am no longer in the potential camp of Edwin (don't really know if I ever was). Until he produces something like you mentioned I will not count on him for much. I don't like his long swing and think it leads to prolonged slumps. When he is hot he can be a very good player, but when he is cold he hurts the team both offensively and defensively.

TRF
07-14-2009, 11:48 AM
This single-minded craving for an elite fielding and hitting shortstop is more than a little overplayed. Yes, I would like that, but the Reds could make much better use of their thin payroll space by improving the offense at other positions and finding a defensive whiz for SS.

Yeah, here is the problem with that. A defensive wiz, say a glove superior to Janish, who I think is very good, usually equates to a Juan Castro like bat. Since Walt deemed it necessary that said bat ALSO patrols CF, that's an offensive hit that cannot be overcome.

Since common sense seems to have taken a leave of absence, the only logical thing to do is get a SS that won't kill you defensively and can rake, cuz WT seems to be entrenched in CF permanently. Talk about an idiotic contract. 1 year was bad enough, but two? with Dickerson, Heaisey and Stubbs in the org? ugh.

So common sense dictates you cannot have 2 sub .600 OPS bats not pitching in your lineup. A simple shuffling of chairs helps this weak offense. The rotation will sort itself out, and trading one of Arroyo or Harang is certainly possible, especially if we are starting to see the onset of the Homer Bailey that was promised to us. The SP depth at AAA next year should include Wood and Stewart, LeCure and Ramirez. Massett is good for spot starts as well. I can't believe I am finally not worried so much about the pitching.

HokieRed
07-14-2009, 11:51 AM
May be that the Angels think Wood can play SS, and everybody else does too, and the price is commensurate. I doubt the demands have been too high; they've just been high. You're not going to get an everyday SS without paying up. I suggest this is a place for Walt to be making inquiries and making realistic offers, which, IMO, would start with a starter they can use right now--Owings--and one other player, possibly Roenicke or Burton or maybe a position player.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 11:52 AM
Yeah, here is the problem with that. A defensive wiz, say a glove superior to Janish, who I think is very good, usually equates to a Juan Castro like bat. Since Walt deemed it necessary that said bat ALSO patrols CF, that's an offensive hit that cannot be overcome.

Since common sense seems to have taken a leave of absence, the only logical thing to do is get a SS that won't kill you defensively and can rake, cuz WT seems to be entrenched in CF permanently. Talk about an idiotic contract. 1 year was bad enough, but two? with Dickerson, Heaisey and Stubbs in the org? ugh.

So common sense dictates you cannot have 2 sub .600 OPS bats not pitching in your lineup. A simple shuffling of chairs helps this weak offense. The rotation will sort itself out, and trading one of Arroyo or Harang is certainly possible, especially if we are starting to see the onset of the Homer Bailey that was promised to us. The SP depth at AAA next year should include Wood and Stewart, LeCure and Ramirez. Massett is good for spot starts as well. I can't believe I am finally not worried so much about the pitching.

Edit: The Astros carried three .600 bats in their everyday lineup straight to the WS: Everett, Taveras and Ausmus.

Get a stable producer in left and a non-replacement level bat in RF, and yes, replace Taveras with Dickerson, and pray EE can figure it out with the bat. Offensively, they'd be looking pretty good. The Reds CAN afford a .650 excellent fielding SS, but they CAN'T afford a .700 RF. That ain't gon work.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 11:56 AM
When he is hot he can be a very good player, but when he is cold he hurts the team both offensively and defensively.


You could say that about any player.

bucksfan2
07-14-2009, 11:58 AM
You could say that about any player.

Huh? The only way Edwin is a 3B in this league is if he can hit. His glove and footwork is just that bad. Look at what Bruce did in the outfield when he wasn't hitting squat. Phillips is the same way, if he isn't hitting he doesn't bring that to the field. Edwin on the other hand is a hot mess when he isn't hitting.

Always Red
07-14-2009, 12:03 PM
They can (and probably will) buy him out then sign him to a deal for less money. $3M maybe $4M a year. Probably no more than a 1 year deal.

I also think that will happen.

By all accounts, the Reds really like Gonzalez.

I think he's gonna be our SS next year, whether we like it or not.

TRF
07-14-2009, 12:06 PM
Edit: The Astros carried three .600 bats in their everyday lineup straight to the WS: Everett, Taveras and Ausmus.

Get a stable producer in left and a non-replacement level bat in RF, and yes, replace Taveras with Dickerson, and pray EE can figure it out with the bat. Offensively, they'd be looking pretty good. The Reds CAN afford a .650 excellent fielding SS, but they CAN'T afford a .700 RF. That ain't gon work.

With the sickest rotation I had ever seen. Nobody has a top three like Oswalt/Pettite/Clemens, and nobody is likely too in the near future. They were a WC team that was LUCKY to even be there with that offense.

Bruce long term isn't a .700 OPS bat, and I'll take a Carlos Guillen type bat at SS, and I think Wood is that bat. LF CAN be filled in house if someone steps up and grabs it. A platoon of Heisey/Dorn COULD do it, but I'm not averse to getting someone from the outside. BTW, EE figured out his bat 3 years ago.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 12:15 PM
Huh? The only way Edwin is a 3B in this league is if he can hit. His glove and footwork is just that bad. Look at what Bruce did in the outfield when he wasn't hitting squat. Phillips is the same way, if he isn't hitting he doesn't bring that to the field. Edwin on the other hand is a hot mess when he isn't hitting.


If he's a liability in the field all the time then he's a liability no matter if he's hitting or not. If EE puts up great offensive numbers, no one really cares about his defense. When he slumps, people pick on his defense. You used Bruce as an example and this subject has been debated on here many, many times but if you replace Bruce's offense with a league average bat while you downgraded some defensively, would his replacement be more of an asset all around than Bruce was?

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 12:19 PM
With the sickest rotation I had ever seen. Nobody has a top three like Oswalt/Pettite/Clemens, and nobody is likely too in the near future. They were a WC team that was LUCKY to even be there with that offense.

Bruce long term isn't a .700 OPS bat, and I'll take a Carlos Guillen type bat at SS, and I think Wood is that bat. LF CAN be filled in house if someone steps up and grabs it. A platoon of Heisey/Dorn COULD do it, but I'm not averse to getting someone from the outside. BTW, EE figured out his bat 3 years ago.

Reds' 2010 offense probably hinges on whether he steps it up or not. I would get two big bats in offseason and take "hope" out of the equation and replace it with a little certainty.

jojo
07-14-2009, 12:23 PM
Reds' 2010 offense probably hinges on whether he steps it up or not. I would get two big bats in offseason and take "hope" out of the equation and replace it with a little certainty.

But acquisition of two bigs bats would likely block offensive solutions in the farm.....

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 12:27 PM
But acquisition of two bigs bats would likely block offensive solutions in the farm.....

Maybe--or maybe it prevents another Bruce-ian collapse caused by a hastily promoted stick.

Do what they do in St. Louis; make the farmhand kill to get on the 25-man.

At the very least, one big bat almost certainly is needed as insurance.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 12:29 PM
But acquisition of two bigs bats would likely block offensive solutions in the farm.....


Who would those be?

Caveat Emperor
07-14-2009, 12:30 PM
This single-minded craving for an elite fielding and hitting shortstop is more than a little overplayed. Yes, I would like that, but the Reds could make much better use of their thin payroll space by improving the offense at other positions and finding a defensive whiz for SS.

If you figure the team is returning solid offense at 1B, 2B, RF, and C, and concede SS to whatever is around that can defend, that leaves 3 places on the diamond to improve: 3B, LF and CF.

CF can be improved by inserting Dickerson imemdiately, and getting a look at Stubbs and Heisey before the season is out. Deal whoever you don't need of the latter two for other players.

3B needs a big bat. Take a look at Todd Frazier when the rosters expand, and go shopping in the offseason if necessary.

LF needs a big bat. Go shopping in the offseason and acquire a ~.900 or better bat to play there everyday.

My take would be -- break the bank to find a slugger to play LF, continue to improve the bullpen and bench, and hope that EE can hold the fort until Frazier kicks the door in at 3B.

princeton
07-14-2009, 12:36 PM
new look Reds: GM Bavasi :D


Cast: "The losing stops now. I mean it this time. Really. I do."

Caveat Emperor
07-14-2009, 12:40 PM
new look Reds: GM Bavasi :D

You shut your mouth right now. ;)

Now, go find some wood to knock on.

jojo
07-14-2009, 01:28 PM
Who would those be?

Personally, I don't think they exist.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 01:48 PM
new look Reds: GM Bavasi :D


Cast: "The losing stops now. I mean it this time. Really. I do."Of course, I can't for the life of me think of a reason that we wouldn't want an owner with such an attitude, so I really don't get this dig at the owner.

TRF
07-14-2009, 02:20 PM
Of course, I can't for the life of me think of a reason that we wouldn't want an owner with such an attitude, so I really don't get this dig at the owner.

Right attitude.

Dumb time to say it.

princeton
07-14-2009, 02:30 PM
Of course, I can't for the life of me think of a reason that we wouldn't want an owner with such an attitude, so I really don't get this dig at the owner.

I always thought it was about execution, not attitude.

wanting cleaner water is a good attitude. but tossing out the baby in the process isn't so good.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 02:41 PM
I always thought it was about execution, not attitude.

wanting cleaner water is a good attitude. but tossing out the baby in the process isn't so good.Not too many folks can execute without first wanting to execute and understanding what the ultimate goal of a professional sports franchise is.

It is far easier to just write it off as so much propaganda, but there is much more to "execution" in this case than looking at the team's record a little more than a year later, unless of course you wanted that to mean "I am dumping whatever it takes into player payroll next season to ensure we have a winner."

I would think someone like you would look at things like spending in Latin America, spending on draft picks, and other such aspects of putting together a winning organization as more substantive than going all in on this year's 25 man roster. Perhaps I was giving you too much credit and you are just as shortsighted as most fans who bring up that statement.

princeton
07-14-2009, 03:02 PM
Not too many folks can execute without first wanting to execute and understanding what the ultimate goal of a professional sports franchise is.

It is far easier to just write it off as so much propaganda, but there is much more to "execution" in this case than looking at the team's record a little more than a year later, unless of course you wanted that to mean "I am dumping whatever it takes into player payroll next season to ensure we have a winner."

I would think someone like you would look at things like spending in Latin America, spending on draft picks, and other such aspects of putting together a winning organization as more substantive than going all in on this year's 25 man roster. Perhaps I was giving you too much credit and you are just as shortsighted as most fans who bring up that statement.


you've been a staunch defender of a really bad organization for a long time. I admire your stick-to-it-iveness. for both of our sakes, I hope that you get it right one of these days.

TRF
07-14-2009, 03:53 PM
Not too many folks can execute without first wanting to execute and understanding what the ultimate goal of a professional sports franchise is.

It is far easier to just write it off as so much propaganda, but there is much more to "execution" in this case than looking at the team's record a little more than a year later, unless of course you wanted that to mean "I am dumping whatever it takes into player payroll next season to ensure we have a winner."

I would think someone like you would look at things like spending in Latin America, spending on draft picks, and other such aspects of putting together a winning organization as more substantive than going all in on this year's 25 man roster. Perhaps I was giving you too much credit and you are just as shortsighted as most fans who bring up that statement.

Really, how much did the Payroll increase in April 2006? Because I saw a major influx of cheap, controllable talent added and nary a dollar more than at the start of ST that year.

Chip R
07-14-2009, 03:59 PM
I always thought it was about execution, not attitude.

wanting cleaner water is a good attitude. but tossing out the baby in the process isn't so good.


It's a better attitude than the team down the street has.

Of course it's one thing to boldly state that "The losing stops now" and then not really doing anything differently than your predecessors.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 04:04 PM
you've been a staunch defender of a really bad organization for a long time. I admire your stick-to-it-iveness. for both of our sakes, I hope that you get it right one of these days.I wouldn't call it defender, I'd call it giving people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Castellini has not proven otherwise. If you want to talk about previous regimes, threw everyone of them under the bus from Lindner-Bowden-O'Brien quite some time ago, so you would be mistaken on "for a long time." Yes, I do err on the side of not assuming that ownership and management are idiots and working from there like the "staunch opponents" tend toward.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Really, how much did the Payroll increase in April 2006? Because I saw a major influx of cheap, controllable talent added and nary a dollar more than at the start of ST that year.Not sure what your point is since the statement Castellini made did not occur until May 2008.

TRF
07-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Not sure what your point is since the statement Castellini made did not occur until May 2008.

That IS my point!

WK was infusing the system with talent. All through the system, and doing it cheaply. No change was necessary, commitment to his plan was. And what has WJ done?

The Reds don't need a payroll boost, they need common sense.

redsmetz
07-14-2009, 04:22 PM
That IS my point!

WK was infusing the system with talent. All through the system, and doing it cheaply. No change was necessary, commitment to his plan was. And what has WJ done?

The Reds don't need a payroll boost, they need common sense.

In many ways, I think WJ has continued what Krivsky was doing, frankly. He hasn't traded away any of our developing talent. I'm not surprised by that as I felt like this year was going to be getting a sense of who we had available to trade, who we wanted to keep, etc. I'm not sure they ever intended to contend completely this year and it's frustrating that we might have had a chance, but I'm not sure we had much anyway.

I'm anxious to see how things play out.

TRF
07-14-2009, 04:35 PM
In many ways, I think WJ has continued what Krivsky was doing, frankly. He hasn't traded away any of our developing talent. I'm not surprised by that as I felt like this year was going to be getting a sense of who we had available to trade, who we wanted to keep, etc. I'm not sure they ever intended to contend completely this year and it's frustrating that we might have had a chance, but I'm not sure we had much anyway.

I'm anxious to see how things play out.

He hasn't traded away anything, but hasn't infused as much talent either. mostly some bit role players and Owings. Massett was a nice find. But he resigned very replaceable players in Weathers and Lincoln. McD was given an actual look as a major league player. And of course my well documented loathing of the WT signing.

But my biggest issue is not recognizing that an instant improvement can be made via a few changes. Some internal, some through trade. The Reds have the depth to make a long term acquisition. It's time to use it.

Will M
07-14-2009, 04:39 PM
In many ways, I think WJ has continued what Krivsky was doing, frankly. He hasn't traded away any of our developing talent. I'm not surprised by that as I felt like this year was going to be getting a sense of who we had available to trade, who we wanted to keep, etc. I'm not sure they ever intended to contend completely this year and it's frustrating that we might have had a chance, but I'm not sure we had much anyway.

I'm anxious to see how things play out.

My only real complaint about Jocketty was his giving Taveras 2 years. I was fine on 'buying low' but we had other options in CF that were/are better.
a one year deal was ok but 2 years was not ok.

He has not traded away our prospects which is a good thing. he is going to have some decisions to make between now & opening day 2010.
We need a SS and may have to deal youth to get it. Who to trade? who to keep?

if walt could pawn off Arroyo on someone & DFA Taveras i'll forgice him for signing Taveras in the first place.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 04:39 PM
That IS my point!

WK was infusing the system with talent. All through the system, and doing it cheaply. No change was necessary, commitment to his plan was. And what has WJ done?

The Reds don't need a payroll boost, they need common sense.I see, thanks for the explanation. I think Krivsky did some good things while he was here, but Cast wanted WJ in charge from the outset and had to say something publicly, so he canned him while the team was in the tank and gave a rah rah speech. Water under the bridge, rich people can be impetuous.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 04:41 PM
That IS my point!

WK was infusing the system with talent. All through the system, and doing it cheaply. No change was necessary, commitment to his plan was. And what has WJ done?

The Reds don't need a payroll boost, they need common sense.

Wayne was given the okay to give 50 million to get a reliever, 40 million to lock up Harang 30 + to lock up Arroyo, 20 million to extend Dunn and 35 million to extend Phillips. Some of those moves were good, some stupid. But let's not pretend that Krivsky was nickel-and-diming his way to contention.

The guy was given a big fat blank check to win. And by and large, you're looking at the fruit of all that money and ingenuity in these, your 2009, negative-50-run-difference-and-sinking Cincinnati Reds.

TheNext44
07-14-2009, 05:02 PM
He hasn't traded away anything, but hasn't infused as much talent either. mostly some bit role players and Owings. Massett was a nice find. But he resigned very replaceable players in Weathers and Lincoln. McD was given an actual look as a major league player. And of course my well documented loathing of the WT signing.

But my biggest issue is not recognizing that an instant improvement can be made via a few changes. Some internal, some through trade. The Reds have the depth to make a long term acquisition. It's time to use it.

Many times it is the bit role players that make the biggest difference. Werth and Romano in Philly last year, Spiezio and Suppan in StL in 06, Cotts and Politte for the White Sox in 05, Millar, Mueller and Belhorn for the Red Sox in 04, Brosius and Jeff Nelson for those Yankee teams from 98-2000. The fans of these teams will tell you that these guys were just as important, if not more, to their teams success than the teams big stars.

And that is what Krivsky was missing. The ability to build a winning team, with all the right parts in perfect balance. He infused the organization with solid talent, but he never built a team.

This is what Jocketty is doing. This is why it seems like he is not doing much. He doesn't have to, thanks to Krivsky. He just needs to find the right parts and the perfect balance. It's going to be boring, but most likely, very successful in the long run.

TRF
07-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Wayne was given the okay to give 50 million to get a reliever, 40 million to lock up Harang 30 + to lock up Arroyo, 20 million to extend Dunn and 35 million to extend Phillips. Some of those moves were good, some stupid. But let's not pretend that Krivsky was nickel-and-diming his way to contention.

The guy was given a big fat blank check to win. And by and large, you're looking at the fruit of all that money and ingenuity in these, your 2009, negative-50-run-difference-and-sinking Cincinnati Reds.

The only bad move of that group was Arroyo. Everyone else has lived up to their contracts. Even the 2008 injured Harang. Walt has made misstep after misstep, signing players to two year deals that were waiver wire fodder. Whether he's hamstrung by budget or not, his little moves, while perhaps not payroll significant, were definitely win significant. WT, Lincoln and Weathers... all replaceable for league minimum, and likely would have netted the Reds 5 additional wins at this point in the season. Gomes up from the start instead of McD, 1 win easily, maybe two. Getting a real SS, 1 more win, possibly more.

It isn't that WJ hasn't brought players in or handed out contracts, it's that he brought in bad players. He points to LF and says we need a big bat while ignoring the gaping hole at SS. And that big bat? Well that, it turns out never existed. Apparently no one was available. Except to other teams. Even the Nats signed Adam Dunn. 10 mil for two years of 40+ HR's per year. Damn cheap.

You have harped and harped on the pitching, but you have to know Walt decimated the offense and replaced it with pretty much nothing. He jump started Jay Bruce, likely before he was ready to infuse some excitement in the Reds. He kept promoting instead of developing Homer Bailey. He's followed in the footsteps of WK's LA program, so he gets credit for not screwing up, but he hasn't done thing one to make this his team in any real sense. Not like he did in STL.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 05:15 PM
The only bad move of that group was Arroyo. Everyone else has lived up to their contracts. Even the 2008 injured Harang. Walt has made misstep after misstep, signing players to two year deals that were waiver wire fodder. Whether he's hamstrung by budget or not, his little moves, while perhaps not payroll significant, were definitely win significant. WT, Lincoln and Weathers... all replaceable for league minimum, and likely would have netted the Reds 5 additional wins at this point in the season. Gomes up from the start instead of McD, 1 win easily, maybe two. Getting a real SS, 1 more win, possibly more.

It isn't that WJ hasn't brought players in or handed out contracts, it's that he brought in bad players. He points to LF and says we need a big bat while ignoring the gaping hole at SS. And that big bat? Well that, it turns out never existed. Apparently no one was available. Except to other teams. Even the Nats signed Adam Dunn. 10 mil for two years of 40+ HR's per year. Damn cheap.

You have harped and harped on the pitching, but you have to know Walt decimated the offense and replaced it with pretty much nothing. He jump started Jay Bruce, likely before he was ready to infuse some excitement in the Reds. He kept promoting instead of developing Homer Bailey. He's followed in the footsteps of WK's LA program, so he gets credit for not screwing up, but he hasn't done thing one to make this his team in any real sense. Not like he did in STL.

The point wasn't that he got bad or good players, the point is *you* said he did cheaply.

He didn't. He spent a bundle of money. Almost 10 times as much as Jocketty's gotten to spend.

Lest we forget Wayne's acquisitions of Castro, Patterson, Stanton, Cormier, Young Body. None of those guys was free.

So much revision of the guy's tenure. Kafka-esque revision.

TRF
07-14-2009, 05:30 PM
The point wasn't that he got bad or good players, the point is *you* said he did cheaply.

He didn't. He spent a bundle of money. Almost 10 times as much as Jocketty's gotten to spend.

Lest we forget Wayne's acquisitions of Castro, Patterson, Stanton, Cormier, Young Body. None of those guys was free.

So much revision of the guy's tenure. Kafka-esque revision.

No, no, no.

Arroyo was acquired cheap.

BP Cheap

Ross Cheap

Hatteburg Cheap

Hamilton Cheap

Volquez Cheap

Herrera Cheap

Did he make mistakes? of course. did he infuse the club with long term talent? yes. Has Walt? no. Not one player has Walt acquired looks to be anything resembling a long term solution. Maybe Owings. Maybe.

You are confusing KEEPING players as opposed to ACQUIRING players. WK had some stinkers, but his mark on this franchise is the core that success could be built around with a smidge of DanO and Leatherpants thrown in. Walt has added pretty much nothing.

WMR
07-14-2009, 05:33 PM
Many times it is the bit role players that make the biggest difference. Werth and Romano in Philly last year, Spiezio and Suppan in StL in 06, Cotts and Politte for the White Sox in 05, Millar, Mueller and Belhorn for the Red Sox in 04, Brosius and Jeff Nelson for those Yankee teams from 98-2000. The fans of these teams will tell you that these guys were just as important, if not more, to their teams success than the teams big stars.

And that is what Krivsky was missing. The ability to build a winning team, with all the right parts in perfect balance. He infused the organization with solid talent, but he never built a team.

This is what Jocketty is doing. This is why it seems like he is not doing much. He doesn't have to, thanks to Krivsky. He just needs to find the right parts and the perfect balance. It's going to be boring, but most likely, very successful in the long run.

He was unable to find the right parts for his two biggest needs this past off-season: a CFer and a SS. He utterly failed at those two tasks. He honestly DESIRED to acquire Taveras and planned on Alex "I'm Hurt" Gonzalez to somehow turn back the hands of time and become a player that he hasn't been in several years. Giving Dusty Baker Willy Taveras is akin to handing a monkey a loaded pistol. You just know that damn monkey is going to blow his brains out, you just hope he doesn't kill any innocents first.

If this is indicative of what he's going to be doing as far as making moves, there's not going to be any success, now or in the future. He's gotta start making SMART moves that will bring honest to goodness projectable talent into the organization. Let's hope there is some shrewd analyzation going on over at GABP as we speak... haven't seen much of it yet, from the owner on down. "Full of sound and fury ... signifying nothing." - always makes me think of Cast.

We're not in St. Louis, anymore.

Will M
07-14-2009, 05:40 PM
Dunn was a goner at the end of 2008. We got Owings & Buck.

Griffey was a goner at the end of 2008. We got Massett.

Nix and Gomes were signed to minor league deals. they are under the Reds control for at least 2010 (both have less than 6 years service time).

Owings, Massett, Nix and Gomes aren't world beaters but they are major league talent added for guys who were going to leave for no return or added as minor league free agents. they are also not just a 2009 patch.

Walt traded Freel (awful) for Hernandez (decent). Signed Hairston as a guy who would be our emergency SS if Gonzo couldn't play. Signed Weathers.
Again not world beaters but decent players to patch the team for 2009 while we wait for more talent to arrive via the minors.

IMO to say that Walt hasn't added any talent to the team is wrong.

WMR
07-14-2009, 05:43 PM
If we were going to stick with the dumpster diving routine we should've kept Krivsky. He was much better at it.

And those are the exact type of moves that can be made every year--wonder who we can get for Harang this year?--and not get the team anywhere. The Reds aren't going to get very far adding a Laynce Nix and Jonny Gomes every year. I mean, these are decent players--being kind--but they're not signing minor league deals because a bunch of teams are clamoring for their services.

Will M
07-14-2009, 05:46 PM
He was unable to find the right parts for his two biggest needs this past off-season: a CFer and a SS. He utterly failed at those two tasks. He honestly DESIRED to acquire Taveras and planned on Alex "I'm Hurt" Gonzalez to somehow turn back the hands of time and become a player that he hasn't been in several years. Giving Dusty Baker Willy Taveras is akin to handing a monkey a loaded pistol. You just know that damn monkey is going to blow his brains out, you just hope he doesn't kill any innocents first.

If this is indicative of what he's going to be doing as far as making moves, there's not going to be any success, now or in the future. He's gotta start making SMART moves that will bring honest to goodness projectable talent into the organization. Let's hope there is some shrewd analyzation going on over at GABP as we speak... haven't seen much of it yet, from the owner on down. "Full of sound and fury ... signifying nothing." - always makes me think of Cast.

We're not in St. Louis, anymore.

maybe Bob C wanted Willy. or maybe Dusty went to Bob C and said 'I want Willy' and Bob C told Walt 'make it so'.

the 2008-2009 free agent market was devoid of shortstops. we had ~12 guys signed for the big league team. then Bob C pulled the plug on the budget when the economy tanked. exactly how Walt was going to fill out a 25 man roster and fix all our issues with little money is beyond me.

imo it is very hard to grade Walt without knowing what Bob C has done behind the scenes.

yes this season has stunk. yes i am sick of seeing Willy bat at the top of the order ( much less on the team). yes i would have done things differently this offseason. however, walt has not traded guys like Stubbs, Alonso, Frazier, etc for a bag of balls nor has he saddled the team with a couple albatross long term deals. no need for the lynch mob yet.

WMR
07-14-2009, 05:49 PM
maybe Bob C wanted Willy. or maybe Dusty went to Bob C and said 'I want Willy' and Bob C told Walt 'make it so'.

the 2008-2009 free agent market was devoid of shortstops. we had ~12 guys signed for the big league team. then Bob C pulled the plug on the budget when the economy tanked. exactly how Walt was going to fill out a 25 man roster and fix all our issues with little money is beyond me.

imo it is very hard to grade Walt without knowing what Bob C has done behind the scenes.

yes this season has stunk. yes i am sick of seeing Willy bat at the top of the order ( much less on the team). yes i would have done things differently this offseason. however, walt has not traded guys like Stubbs, Alonso, Frazier, etc for a bag of balls nor has he saddled the team with a couple albatross long term deals. no need for the lynch mob yet.

I'm definitely not calling for the lynch mob or anything like that. And I agree that any blame that you want to send Jocketty's way should land on Castellini's doorstep as well. I just see other teams making moves and I see us making ... ... NO moves. Ultimately this is a results oriented business and Jocketty/Castellini using the "we tried" excuse won't hold water for very long. Even if the team on the field is still losing, show us some moves that demonstrate that you at least UNDERSTAND what is wrong with this team and are trying to fix it.

Will M
07-14-2009, 05:50 PM
If we were going to stick with the dumpster diving routine we should've kept Krivsky. He was much better at it.

And those are the exact type of moves that can be made every year--wonder who we can get for Harang this year?--and not get the team anywhere. The Reds aren't going to get very far adding a Laynce Nix and Jonny Gomes every year. I mean, these are decent players--being kind--but they're not signing minor league deals because a bunch of teams are clamoring for their services.

How to add star players without giving up much talent:
1. outbid the Yankees, Red Sox, etc for the few prized free agents
2. somehow totally rip off a team via a trade.
3. draft and develop wisely

#1 is not available to the Reds.
#2 doesn't happen very often.
#3 takes a long time

WMR
07-14-2009, 05:55 PM
How to add star players without giving up much talent:
1. outbid the Yankees, Red Sox, etc for the few prized free agents
2. somehow totally rip off a team via a trade.
3. draft and develop wisely

#1 is not available to the Reds.
#2 doesn't happen very often.
#3 takes a long time

Even with the Reds, however, you can trade from positions of relative strength to shore up areas of weakness. We haven't seen that.

Instead we've seen players added--Taveras--who are a complete redundancy in this organization, and a subpar redundancy at that, before the ink on their contract has even had the time to dry.

And I'm certainly not talking about going after guys like Mark Teixeira. Add up the salaries given to Taveras and Weathers and you've nearly got enough cash to go out there and get yourself a Bobby Abreu. The critical thinking just hasn't seemed to be there. I hope we see a series of very good moves made before the deadline to give this team a better shot at a good 2010.

TRF
07-14-2009, 05:56 PM
Dunn was a goner at the end of 2008. We got Owings & Buck.

Griffey was a goner at the end of 2008. We got Massett.

Nix and Gomes were signed to minor league deals. they are under the Reds control for at least 2010 (both have less than 6 years service time).

Owings, Massett, Nix and Gomes aren't world beaters but they are major league talent added for guys who were going to leave for no return or added as minor league free agents. they are also not just a 2009 patch.

Walt traded Freel (awful) for Hernandez (decent). Signed Hairston as a guy who would be our emergency SS if Gonzo couldn't play. Signed Weathers.
Again not world beaters but decent players to patch the team for 2009 while we wait for more talent to arrive via the minors.

IMO to say that Walt hasn't added any talent to the team is wrong.

The trades aside for a moment, none of those signings were anything special. run of the mill moves all GM's make.

As for the trades, again Massett was a great find. Owings has been good, and the injured Buck was injured again.

Dunn > Owings/Buck
Massett > Griffey (sadly)

Walt has added players.

Krivsky added talent.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:00 PM
No, no, no.

Arroyo was acquired cheap.

BP Cheap

Ross Cheap

Hatteburg Cheap

Hamilton Cheap

Volquez Cheap

Herrera Cheap

Did he make mistakes? of course. did he infuse the club with long term talent? yes. Has Walt? no. Not one player has Walt acquired looks to be anything resembling a long term solution. Maybe Owings. Maybe.

You are confusing KEEPING players as opposed to ACQUIRING players. WK had some stinkers, but his mark on this franchise is the core that success could be built around with a smidge of DanO and Leatherpants thrown in. Walt has added pretty much nothing.

I'd argue DanO's and Leatherpants'/Maddox/Kullman's impact is bigger than Krivsky's.

But really, the tit for tat speaks for itself, Krivsky's impact is being almost comically overplayed.

What's funnier, though, is the notion that because he *acquires* a player cheaply (whatever that means), it shouldn't matter that he overpays for their production.

Rojo
07-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Jocketty was never creative. His greatest strength was not over-thinking.

traderumor
07-14-2009, 06:06 PM
I just see other teams making moves and I see us making ... ... NO moves. Which is the crux of the matter, after topping what, 150 posts now, the jest of the matter is "by gum, do something!" I do not see that as entirely helpful.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:06 PM
If we were going to stick with the dumpster diving routine we should've kept Krivsky. He was much better at it.

This is about the only legitimate argument I've heard in this thread.

Bob went from King Croesus to the Clean Plate Club and hobos in boxcars.

WVRedsFan
07-14-2009, 06:10 PM
The trades aside for a moment, none of those signings were anything special. run of the mill moves all GM's make.

As for the trades, again Massett was a great find. Owings has been good, and the injured Buck was injured again.

Dunn > Owings/Buck
Massett > Griffey (sadly)

Walt has added players.

Krivsky added talent.

Here is the list of moves by Wayne Krivsky through 4-8-08:


2-12-06: Scott Hatteberg signed to a one-year, $750K deal.
2-13-06: Adam Dunn signed to two-year, $18.5MM extension.
3-20-06: Acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.
3-21-06: Acquired David Ross for Bobby Basham.
4-7-06: Acquired Brandon Phillips for Jeff Stevens.
5-26-06: Traded Cody Ross to Marlins for a player to be named later
June '06: Selected Drew Stubbs eighth overall in draft.
7-6-06: Acquired Eddie Guardado for Travis Chick.
7-13-06: Acquired Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris, and Daryl Thompson for Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez, and Ryan Wagner
7-26-06: Signed Hatteberg to a one-year, $1.65MM extension.
7-31-06: Acquired Rheal Cormier for Justin Germano. -
7-31-06: Acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward.
8-7-06: Acquired Ryan Franklin for a player to be named later.
8-16-06: Acquired Scott Schoeneweis for a player to be named later.
8-28-06: Signed Javier Valentin to a one-year, $1.325MM extension.
9-25-06: Signed Juan Castro to a two-year, $2MM extension.
11-20-06: Signed Alex Gonzalez to a three-year, $14MM contract.
11-20-06: Signed Mike Stanton to a two-year, $5.5MM contract.
11-20-06: Traded Jason LaRue to the Royals for a player to be named later.
12-7-06: Acquired Josh Hamilton for cash.
12-7-06: Selected Jared Burton in Rule 5 draft.
12-12-06: Signed David Weathers to a two-year, $5MM contract.
1-2-07: Traded Brendan Harris to Rays for cash.
1-10-07: Acquired Jeff Keppinger for Russ Haltiwanger.
2-6-07: Signed Aaron Harang to a four-year, $36.5MM extension.
2-8-07: Signed Bronson Arroyo to a two-year, $25MM extension.
4-16-07: Signed Ryan Freel to a two-year, $7MM extension. - bad
4-27-07: Traded Chris Denorfia to A's for Marcus McBeth and another player.
5-9-07: Released Rheal Cormier.
June '07: Selected Devin Mesoraco 15th overall in draft.
10-31-07: Exercised '08 options on Hatteberg, Dunn, and Valentin.
11-28-07: Signed Francisco Cordero to a four-year, $46MM contract.
12-21-07: Acquired Edinson Volquez and Danny Herrera for Josh Hamilton.
1-23-08: Signed Jeremy Affeldt to a one-year, $3MM contract.
2-15-08: Signed Brandon Phillips to a four-year, $27MM extension.
2-21-08: Signed Josh Fogg to a one-year, $1MM contract.
3-3-08: Signed Corey Patterson to a one-year, $3MM contract.
4-8-08: Released Mike Stanton.


Some good, but a lot of bad, too. And all the money he wasted on throwing things at the wall is sorta irresponsible, but Castilini might have had a lot to do with that. Regarless, the statment that Walt has brought in players and Krivisky talent is stretching it a little.

WMR
07-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Which is the crux of the matter, after topping what, 150 posts now, the jest of the matter is "by gum, do something!" I do not see that as entirely helpful.

The thing is, we've known the issues that this Reds team would likely face for how many months now (including the entire offseason)? It isn't like these issues are recent manifestations.

Heck, optimizing their own 25 man roster would be a huge step foward, which is sort of sad, in a way.

Rojo
07-14-2009, 06:16 PM
What's funnier, though, is the notion that because he *acquires* a player cheaply (whatever that means), it shouldn't matter that he overpays for their production.

You made the argument here or elsewhere that you need a cascade of talent, not a string. Yes, Krivsky overpaid on some players but we went into this year with a bunch of guys locked up or pre-arb. That means you don't have to pop your nut on keeping the core together, especially with older prospects to fill some holes.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:17 PM
Not to mention the cash Wayne threw away hand over fist on his drafts.

redsfandan
07-14-2009, 06:20 PM
I also think that will happen.

By all accounts, the Reds really like Gonzalez.

I think he's gonna be our SS next year, whether we like it or not.
I'd rather have Cozart & Janish fight it out for less than a million then have $3m tied up in Gonzo again. Good player when healthy. That just hasn't been often.

The only bad move of that group was Arroyo. Everyone else has lived up to their contracts. ....
Woops, you didn't forget Cordero did you? There's no way a team like the Reds should commit THAT much to a pitcher that pitches less than 100 innings a year and for 4 years as well.

Sorry but imo WK had some good acquisitions and then screwed them up with bad deals that hang over the team for more then just a year or two.


It isn't that WJ hasn't brought players in or handed out contracts, it's that he brought in bad players. He points to LF and says we need a big bat while ignoring the gaping hole at SS. And that big bat? Well that, it turns out never existed. Apparently no one was available. Except to other teams. Even the Nats signed Adam Dunn. 10 mil for two years of 40+ HR's per year. Damn cheap.

You have harped and harped on the pitching, but you have to know Walt decimated the offense and replaced it with pretty much nothing. STL.
Hindsight is 20/20. I don't think ANYONE could've expected that Dunn, Abreu, etc would've signed for what they did. The market the past offseason was very much out of the ordinary and hard to predict. Not to mention the Reds decided to start the season with a slightly lower payroll. Like ALOT of teams.

And I'm certainly not talking about going after guys like Mark Teixeira. Add up the salaries given to Taveras and Weathers and you've nearly got enough cash to go out there and get yourself a Bobby Abreu. ...
Again, did you really expect Abreu would've only cost that much to sign? Honestly.


Walt has added players.

Krivsky added bad contracts.
Fixed that for ya.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:21 PM
You made the argument here or elsewhere that you need a cascade of talent, not a string. Yes, Krivsky overpaid on some players but we went into this year with a bunch of guys locked up or pre-arb. That means you don't have to pop your nut on keeping the core together, especially with older prospects to fill some holes.

Again, the argument TRF made was that what Wayne did, he did cheaply. The list of acquisitions and contracts (above) obliterates that argument. He spent a ton of cash. And only a minority of those contracts was particularly wise.

I know what he was going for, and I don't disagree with the method; but the talent itself and the money spent was by and large ill-targeted.

GAC
07-14-2009, 06:28 PM
Give Walt the twenty million or so in additional payroll room that Wayne had, and I'd like the Reds' chances next season. That would mean Walt would only have to shed one of the idiotic contracts that Wayne signed.

What about some of the idiotic contracts that Walt signed?

Walt cleared out a lot of payroll last year in Milton, Dunn, and Jr. I also give him credit for letting some of the dregs go - Valentin, Ross, Belisle, Hopper, and others. That's fine. But what has he done as far as additions? He solidified and improved the bullpen with guys like Rhodes and Masset. He got us a capable #5 starter in Owings. And improved the catching tandem with the acquisition of Hernandez, coupled with a player already in the system in Hanigan.

Say what you want about Krivsky, and I acknowledge that he brought in some bad players. But so has Walt. But Krivsky also didn't saddle this organization under bad, long term contracts either (aka Milton). Krivksy (and O'Brien) also added some quality players via drafts and acquisitions that Walt is now relying heavily on without making any sound acquisitions to complement or build on what we have.

Bob C, Walt, and Dusty took us into the '09 season with huge holes, question marks, and crossed fingers, in several skilled offensive positions such as LF, CF, SS. And one could also add 3B.

So that is where we are now. The question is.... What is BobC and Walt going to do to address some of those areas going into 2010?

In 09 they have 1M in payroll obligations to former players (Stanton, Ross, Castro). But they are also receiving 2M fro the Orioles for Hernandez. When added all up, our 09 payroll is about 3M less then 08. Jocketty stated, prior to going into this season, that with the moves he made the Reds would have some payroll flexibility and that their payroll would see a bump.

Right now, I don't know if Jocketty is being brave, patient, foolish or if he just doesn't have any options. Some want some sort of trading deadline deal made; but I think there are a lot of teams still trying to assess where they are at.

09 may be seen as a testing ground for Walt. 2010 then should be seen as a proving ground as far as I'm concerned.

GAC
07-14-2009, 06:30 PM
new look Reds: GM Bavasi :D


Cast: "The losing stops now. I mean it this time. Really. I do."

That was the first thing that entered my mind when some have called for Walt's firing. Good Grief!!

GAC
07-14-2009, 06:32 PM
The guy was given a big fat blank check to win. And by and large, you're looking at the fruit of all that money and ingenuity in these, your 2009, negative-50-run-difference-and-sinking Cincinnati Reds.

Hold the horse here! This 09 squad's negative run differential is not the fault of WK. This is Walt/Dusty's team. Period! Show me any of WK's players, that are still on this team, that aren't producing/contributing?

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:34 PM
What about some of the idiotic contracts that Walt signed?

Walt cleared out a lot of payroll last year in Milton, Dunn, and Jr. I also give him credit for letting some of the dregs go - Valentin, Ross, Belisle, Hopper, and others. That's fine. But what has he done as far as additions? He solidified and improved the bullpen with guys like Rhodes and Masset. He got us a capable #5 starter in Owings. And improved the catching tandem with the acquisition of Hernandez, coupled with a player already in the system in Hanigan.

Say what you want about Krivsky, and I acknowledge that he brought in some bad players. But so has Walt. But Krivsky also didn't saddle this organization under bad, long term contracts either (aka Milton). Krivksy (and O'Brien) also added some quality players via drafts and acquisitions that Walt is now relying heavily on without making any sound acquisitions to complement or build on what we have.

Bob C, Walt, and Dusty took us into the '09 season with huge holes, question marks, and crossed fingers, in several skilled offensive positions such as LF, CF, SS. And one could also add 3B.

So that is where we are now. The question is.... What is BobC and Walt going to do to address some of those areas going into 2010?

In 09 they have 1M in payroll obligations to former players (Stanton, Ross, Castro). But they are also receiving 2M fro the Orioles for Hernandez. When added all up, our 09 payroll is about 3M less then 08. Jocketty stated, prior to going into this season, that with the moves he made the Reds would have some payroll flexibility and that their payroll would see a bump.

Right now, I don't know if Jocketty is being brave, patient, foolish or if he just doesn't have any options. Some want some sort of trading deadline deal made; but I think there are a lot of teams still trying to assess where they are at.

09 may be seen as a testing ground for Walt. 2010 then should be seen as a proving ground as far as I'm concerned.

Walt's gotten infinitely more bang for his buck than Krivsky. The only legitimate argument against Jocketty is that he hasn't acquired enough; attempting him to tar him with the "Well Walt signed some bad contracts too" is just silly tit for tat. When it comes to committing dollars to terrible players, the discussion begins and ends with Wayne Krivsky. Walt Jocketty's not even in the same nebula when it comes to dollars wasted.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:36 PM
Hold the horse here! This 09 squad's negative run differential is not the fault of WK. This is Walt/Dusty's team. Period! Show me any of WK's players, that are still on this team, that aren't producing/contributing?

Arroyo
Volquez

This team is a majority Wayne Krivsky, Dan O Brien, Kullman/Maddox/Bowden.

That's just a numerical fact. You can't say "Walt hasn't done anything" then say "This is HIS team!"

GAC
07-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Walt's gotten infinitely more bang for his buck than Krivsky.

Where, From an offensive perspective? It's not hard to get more bang from your buck when you really haven't spent.


The only legitimate argument against Jocketty is that he hasn't acquire enough

And that's enough. ;)


attempting him to tar him with the "Well Walt signed some bad contracts too" is just silly tit for tat.

Not attempting to tar him. Though that is what you have consistently done with WK on bad contracts. So it's OK to sight WK's bad player signings; but leave Walt's Patterson, Taveras, and others, alone? It's somehow not fair?


When it comes to committing dollars to terrible players, the discussion begins and ends with Wayne Krivsky. Walt Jocketty's not even in the same nebula when it comes to dollars wasted.

Again - no argument there. WK took more risks. Some panned out, some didn't. It's hard to evaluate and judge a GM, like Jocketty, who hasn't made the volume of moves or spent, but basically sat on his hands, other then to make improvements in the bullpen, add a catcher, and acquire marginal inexpensive OFers like Nix and Gomes.

And I'm not calling for Walt's head either. Only that a good GM will see this team's weaknesses and lack, and going into next season, make those moves to address/fill those needs. That is what I am waiting to see. I'm not so concerned about him making some slobberknocker trading deadline deal to give this team a boost/chance in '09, as much as I'm looking for his long term solutions to some glaring problems.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 06:58 PM
Where, From an offensive perspective? It's not hard to get more bang from your buck when you really haven't spent.



And that's enough. ;)



Not attempting to tar him. Though that is what you have consistently done with WK on bad contracts. So it's OK to sight WK's bad player signings; but leave Walt's Patterson, Taveras, and others, alone? It's somehow not fair?



Again - no argument there. WK took more risks. Some panned out, some didn't. It's hard to evaluate and judge a GM, like Jocketty, who hasn't made the volume of moves or spent, but basically sat on his hands, other then to make improvements in the bullpen, add a catcher, and acquire marginal inexpensive OFers like Nix and Gomes.

And I'm not calling for Walt's head either. Only that a good GM will see this team's weaknesses and lack, and going into next season, make those moves to address/fill those needs. That is what I am waiting to see. I'm not so concerned about him making some slobberknocker trading deadline deal to give this team a boost/chance in '09, as much as I'm looking for his long term solutions to some glaring problems.

Walt didn't sign Patterson. Tarry McTar. :cool:

GAC
07-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Arroyo
Volquez

Gee! How'd I know you'd find someway to get in an Arroyo slam? :lol:

Look. I'm no big BA fan; but that contract was in no way horrendous or a bust. While a Red he has been a slightly above league average pitcher.

Volquez? Give me a break. Just because the kid is injured, are you trying to say that was a bad acquisition by WK?


This team is a majority Wayne Krivsky, Dan O Brien, Kullman/Maddox/Bowden.

That's just a numerical fact. You can't say "Walt hasn't done anything" then say "This is HIS team!"

So at what point does it become Walt's team? He's in his second year as GM, and has been able, along with Baker, to make those numerous moves to fashion this team/roster to their liking. They've gotten rid of the players they wanted to - and got rid of quite a bit - while retaining, and bringing in, those players they wanted.

If this team was winning, and doing so with those former GMs players, you'd be the first to complement Walt while giving none of those previous GMs any credit. ;)

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 07:22 PM
If this team was winning, and doing so with those former GMs players, you'd be the first to complement Walt while giving none of those previous GMs any credit. ;)

When all you've got is speculation, you might as well use it.

Rojo
07-14-2009, 07:29 PM
I know what he was going for, and I don't disagree with the method; but the talent itself and the money spent was by and large ill-targeted.

Every GM signs crappy players. The Patterson-for-Tavares, Stanton-for-Lincoln, tit-for-tat doesn't get us anywhere. I'm not particularly concerned that WK signed Tavares. I found the handwringing about AGon's relatively modest contract way overblown. I feel the same about Tavares.

What bothers me is the failure to address key issues.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 07:57 PM
What bothers me is the failure to address key issues.

I guess. Though I'm not sure what this means, ultimately.

In a long string of failed GMs, it gets hard to untangle core problems and key issues, I'd say.

Falls City Beer
07-14-2009, 07:59 PM
The Patterson-for-Tavares, Stanton-for-Lincoln, tit-for-tat doesn't get us anywhere. I'm not particularly concerned that WK signed Tavares. .

I said as much about 15 posts ago.

But I felt compelled to answer the nonsense argument that Wayne built a team "cheaply."

No Reds' GM has burned more cash in my years of following this organization.

GAC
07-14-2009, 08:30 PM
I'm not particularly concerned that WK signed Tavares.

WK didn't. But you're right that all GM make their share of mistakes, and WK did.


What bothers me is the failure to address key issues.

Bingo. Now Walt did address (clean up) the bullpen, and improve it. And he got us a capable #5 in Owings. IMHO, it appears that Walt (and Dusty) took the approach of emphasizing pitching, defense, and (gulp) speed, at the expense of offense.

Several years ago this FO took the approach of spending a great deal of their payroll on position players and offense, while putting together a "patchwork" pitching staff made up of retreads and marginals. This FO now appears to be doing a 180, and acquiring marginal players to fill key skilled positions. They didn't want to commit the money, and that's why we got a Taveras in CF, platooning whoever in LF and using JHJ to fill in the other holes.

IMHO - it doesn't matter if Walt does go out and make a couple key acquisitions. I don't trust, nor have any faith, in this manager.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-14-2009, 08:41 PM
IMHO - it doesn't matter if Walt does go out and make a couple key acquisitions. I don't trust, nor have any faith, in this manager.


Amen.

TRF
07-14-2009, 08:45 PM
Again you are confusing acquiring with retaining. I'll also add in that WK was willing to admit a mistake while Walt not so much. Esteban Yan is a good example. WK brought him in, it didn't work, so off he goes. He ate Cormier's contract I believe.

Jocketty could learn from that. Instead he seems more willing to provide chance after chance after chance. He kept Patterson long after WK would likely have released him. He's doing the same this year with Taveras, but the beauty is, we get a rerun of this performance next year. Oh joy.

WK came int an organization in shambles, one just starting to rebuild. Walt walked into a system on the rise, a farm replete with SP prospects for the first time in forever. One that just graduated baseball's top prospect in Jay Bruce, and one of it's best pitching prospects in Cueto. He was handed a SP that went on to win 17 games. This team barring Bruce's injury wasn't in need of a major overhaul like it was when WK took over. It needed tweaks and common sense.

Jocketty provided neither.

HokieRed
07-14-2009, 10:58 PM
In my estimation, the top 10 talents in the Reds organization are Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Harang, Wood, and Stewart with Votto, Bruce, Phillips, and Alonso. Four of those were signed or drafted by O'Brien; one by Bowden; one by the interim guys; two by Jocketty; and two were acquired by Krivsky. So, again in my estimation, to suggest that Krivsky infused talent into the system while every one else failed to do so, is pretty simply a large distortion. I'm not anti-Krivsky or anti-Jocketty; just trying to suggest the picture is a little more complicated than that. In fact, I'd be willing to argue that all four of the administrations since Bowden have done a reasonably good job and that what we are still mired in is very much the legacy of Bowden's tenure.

Blitz Dorsey
07-14-2009, 11:25 PM
LOL. Doubtful that this organization will do anything. Just like they "had" to get a good right-handed hitting OF heading into the season.

So, I wouldn't expect anything at all.

Scrap Irony
07-14-2009, 11:37 PM
If you can't make a good deal, don't make a deal at all. Jocketty's looking for a good deal. He won't make a bad one.

I, for one, would much rather see that than an overreaction poorly constructed trade that brings back offense at a high cost.

Ron Madden
07-15-2009, 03:07 AM
The FO needs to earn their keep. They need to make this organization better as a whole. They need to make this team better going into the second half of the season but also into 2010. They need to do what is right, whether or not the fans agree with it.

bucksfan2, I agree 100% with this part of your post. the rest is full of ifs.

Yes, this Club needs to move in a new direction. Let's hope Bob and Walt can take us there.
It will not happen if they make moves in order to satisfy a fanbase that has learned everything they know about baseball from listening to the radio.

princeton
07-15-2009, 09:46 AM
I said as much about 15 posts ago.

But I felt compelled to answer the nonsense argument that Wayne built a team "cheaply."

No Reds' GM has burned more cash in my years of following this organization.

Walt has spent more than WK, of course. Payroll is same ($73.6m vs. $74.1m), but Wayne was saddled with Jr's untradeable deal-- both in real terms and also in Cast's mind-- whereas Jocketty has no untradeable contracts. If he's paying these guys, it's because he wants to pay them.

WJ also spent way more in draft and in Latin America than anyone before, and got several more new hires than WK.

it's all set up pretty well for WJ. The young talent is SO much better. the contracts are in much better shape. for the time being, Cast has reduced his meddling (like that will last...)

So, do something.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 10:22 AM
Walt has spent more than WK, of course. Payroll is same ($73.6m vs. $74.1m), but Wayne was saddled with Jr's untradeable deal-- both in real terms and also in Cast's mind-- whereas Jocketty has no untradeable contracts. If he's paying these guys, it's because he wants to pay them.

WJ also spent way more in draft and in Latin America than anyone before, and got several more new hires than WK.

it's all set up pretty well for WJ. The young talent is SO much better. the contracts are in much better shape. for the time being, Cast has reduced his meddling (like that will last...)

So, do something.

Walt didn't even get a cost of living bump. The above post otherwise vacillates between inscrutable and inaccurate.

princeton
07-15-2009, 10:34 AM
Walt didn't even get a cost of living bump. The above post otherwise vacillates between inscrutable and inaccurate.


salary market dropped like a stone. Cost of living dropped. there's your increase.

more FCB absurdities ;). maybe you can explain prostate cancer to me again?

TRF
07-15-2009, 10:35 AM
If you can't make a good deal, don't make a deal at all. Jocketty's looking for a good deal. He won't make a bad one.

I, for one, would much rather see that than an overreaction poorly constructed trade that brings back offense at a high cost.

Dan Haren for Mark Mulder says hi.

bucksfan2
07-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Walt has spent more than WK, of course. Payroll is same ($73.6m vs. $74.1m), but Wayne was saddled with Jr's untradeable deal-- both in real terms and also in Cast's mind-- whereas Jocketty has no untradeable contracts. If he's paying these guys, it's because he wants to pay them.

WJ also spent way more in draft and in Latin America than anyone before, and got several more new hires than WK.

it's all set up pretty well for WJ. The young talent is SO much better. the contracts are in much better shape. for the time being, Cast has reduced his meddling (like that will last...)

So, do something.

Doing something for the sake of doing something is a bad, bad, bad idea.

Whose to say that that Jocketty isn't trying to do something? There are many trades out there that he can/could make, if the don't improve the Reds then why make those trades?

westofyou
07-15-2009, 10:50 AM
There are many trades out there that he can/could make, if the don't improve the Reds then why make those trades?

Seriously?

The Reds might make a trade that has a goal that doesn't improve the team?

Mmmmm okay.

princeton
07-15-2009, 10:52 AM
Doing something for the sake of doing something is a bad, bad, bad idea.

did I need to say "do something good"? I kind of thought that it was implied. I'll be more careful to spoonfeed next time.

bucksfan2
07-15-2009, 10:54 AM
Seriously?

The Reds might make a trade that has a goal that doesn't improve the team?

Mmmmm okay.

Trades happen all the time that are reaches, or overreactions, or overpaying. I am just saying that right now I think there is an imbalance in the trade market. Trying to make something happen is a bad idea.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 10:59 AM
salary market dropped like a stone

more FCB absurdities ;). maybe you can explain prostate cancer to me again?

Take it easy, big pharma. :)

Wayne's contract balloons (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, Gonzalez) began inflating. That explains the proximity of the current payroll to last year's.

Seriously, that may be the least intellectually honest statement ever uttered on this board: "Walt has spent more than WK, of course."

Griffey was so untradeable Walt did it last August.

bucksfan2
07-15-2009, 10:59 AM
did I need to say "do something good"? I kind of thought that it was implied. I'll be more careful to spoonfeed next time.

I just don't get the notion that Jocketty isn't trying to do something good right now. And by the way I don't need to be spoonfed. He tried to do something good in trading for DeRosa but got out bid by the Cards. If the trade balance is out of wack for the Reds its better off that Jocketty sits back and waits until everything gets sorted out. The last think I want to see him do is make a spur of the moment decision because the Reds fan base demands something "good".

RedLegSuperStar
07-15-2009, 11:02 AM
Their is a rumor floating around the baseball world that a deal to send Matt Holliday and Orlando Cabrera to the Braves in exchange for Yunel Escobar, prospects, and cash. You know it is coming so why not get the Reds involved.

A's recieve: Juan Fransisco, Drew Stubbs, Yunel Escobar, and Jo-Jo Reyes
Braves recieve: Orlando Cabrera, Carlos Fisher, Dana Eveland
Reds recieve: Matt Holliday

princeton
07-15-2009, 11:04 AM
Seriously, that may be the least intellectually honest statement ever uttered on this board: "Walt has spent more than WK, of course".

I do so admire naivety

still, I have to break it to you that somebody's paying these guys, Dorothy.

Jpup
07-15-2009, 11:08 AM
With the sickest rotation I had ever seen. Nobody has a top three like Oswalt/Pettite/Clemens, and nobody is likely too in the near future. They were a WC team that was LUCKY to even be there with that offense.

Bruce long term isn't a .700 OPS bat, and I'll take a Carlos Guillen type bat at SS, and I think Wood is that bat. LF CAN be filled in house if someone steps up and grabs it. A platoon of Heisey/Dorn COULD do it, but I'm not averse to getting someone from the outside. BTW, EE figured out his bat 3 years ago.

What's up with all this love for Dorn? He couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Have you seen his AAA numbers this year? His numbers are terrible against all kinds of pitching. He's a AAA lifer, if that.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 11:10 AM
I do so admire naivety

still, I have to break it to you that somebody's paying these guys, Dorothy.

The oracular Oz bringin' it.

Yes, I agree: Harang, Arroyo, Cordero are overpaid.

TRF
07-15-2009, 11:16 AM
The oracular Oz bringin' it.

Yes, I agree: Harang, Arroyo, Cordero are overpaid.

Is a player overpaid if more than one team was offering said salary?

Cordero is not overpaid. Arroyo might be. Harang isn't, and at the time his salary was considered well below market value.

I've heard the "player X is overpaid so many times my head hurts.

ARod is overpaid.

Alex Rios is overpaid.

Carlos Zambrano is overpaid.

Harang? no. not really.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 11:18 AM
Is a player overpaid if more than one team was offering said salary?

Cordero is not overpaid. Arroyo might be. Harang isn't, and at the time his salary was considered well below market value.

I've heard the "player X is overpaid so many times my head hurts.

ARod is overpaid.

Alex Rios is overpaid.

Carlos Zambrano is overpaid.

Harang? no. not really.


You can't overpay a true ace.

Jpup
07-15-2009, 11:18 AM
Is a player overpaid if more than one team was offering said salary?

Cordero is not overpaid. Arroyo might be. Harang isn't, and at the time his salary was considered well below market value.

I've heard the "player X is overpaid so many times my head hurts.

ARod is overpaid.

Alex Rios is overpaid.

Carlos Zambrano is overpaid.

Harang? no. not really.

Arod's not either. He has been worth every penny of his contract.

OnBaseMachine
07-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Walt has spent more than WK, of course. Payroll is same ($73.6m vs. $74.1m), but Wayne was saddled with Jr's untradeable deal-- both in real terms and also in Cast's mind-- whereas Jocketty has no untradeable contracts. If he's paying these guys, it's because he wants to pay them.

WJ also spent way more in draft and in Latin America than anyone before, and got several more new hires than WK.

it's all set up pretty well for WJ. The young talent is SO much better. the contracts are in much better shape. for the time being, Cast has reduced his meddling (like that will last...)

So, do something.

Excellent post. I'm tired of seeing the excuses for Jocketty. It's not like he's working with a $20 million dollar payroll.

princeton
07-15-2009, 11:30 AM
I spaced on AGonz. I concede that there's a totally unmoveable contract inherited by Jocketty. kind of a junior-Junior

TRF
07-15-2009, 11:32 AM
You can't overpay a true ace.

Zambrano's decline continues. in 2008 he was paid 18 mil for a 3.91 ERA and 130 K's. In 2007, his ERA was 3.95.

Roy Halladay is a true Ace.

Lincecum is too... so far.

Zambrano's not really an ace, he's a good #2, and has been for about 3 years. Harang is the same. I don't over value Harang nearly as much as you undervalue him. I agree on Arroyo... overpaid.


Arod's not either. He has been worth every penny of his contract.

Is he worth it right now? Would he have been minus the enhancements? His contract is a blight on baseball as his admitted use of steroids got him the two largest contracts in baseball. The sooner he's out of the game the better. Plus his contract hamstrung the Rangers for years after he left.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 11:34 AM
Zambrano's decline continues. in 2008 he was paid 18 mil for a 3.91 ERA and 130 K's. In 2007, his ERA was 3.95.

Roy Halladay is a true Ace.

Lincecum is too... so far.

Zambrano's not really an ace, he's a good #2, and has been for about 3 years. Harang is the same. I don't over value Harang nearly as much as you undervalue him. I agree on Arroyo... overpaid.



Is he worth it right now? Would he have been minus the enhancements? His contract is a blight on baseball as his admitted use of steroids got him the two largest contracts in baseball. The sooner he's out of the game the better. Plus his contract hamstrung the Rangers for years after he left.


The Reds would be lucky to have one starter who was half the pitcher Zambrano is.

The last pitcher the Reds have had in Zambrano's territory is Jose Rijo, sixteen seasons ago.

Jpup
07-15-2009, 11:39 AM
Zambrano's decline continues. in 2008 he was paid 18 mil for a 3.91 ERA and 130 K's. In 2007, his ERA was 3.95.

Roy Halladay is a true Ace.

Lincecum is too... so far.

Zambrano's not really an ace, he's a good #2, and has been for about 3 years. Harang is the same. I don't over value Harang nearly as much as you undervalue him. I agree on Arroyo... overpaid.



Is he worth it right now? Would he have been minus the enhancements? His contract is a blight on baseball as his admitted use of steroids got him the two largest contracts in baseball. The sooner he's out of the game the better. Plus his contract hamstrung the Rangers for years after he left.

The Yankees sure like him hitting 3rd in their lineup. He has an OPS of .959 (.411 OBP) for the season. He's going to hit, at least, 40 homers and he missed a month.

TRF
07-15-2009, 11:46 AM
The Reds would be lucky to have one starter who was half the pitcher Zambrano is.

The last pitcher the Reds have had in Zambrano's territory is Jose Rijo, sixteen seasons ago.

Harang was better than Z in 2006 and 2007.

OnBaseMachine
07-15-2009, 11:46 AM
Edinson Volquez is Carlos Zambrano. Very similar pitchers.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 11:51 AM
Harang was better than Z in 2006 and 2007.

Harang can tell his grandkids he was as good as a good pitcher for a couple of seasons.

Benihana
07-15-2009, 11:56 AM
Edinson Volquez is Carlos Zambrano. Very similar pitchers.

I've been saying this since April 2008.

TRF
07-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Harang can tell his grandkids he was as good as a good pitcher for a couple of seasons.

Actually, Harang's peripherals were better in 2008 too. Tough thing when pitching injured, but he has MUCH better control, as good a K rate and has given up about half the number of BB's.

Zambrano is a good pitcher, but if Harang is overpaid, then Z is the poster boy for overpaid.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 12:00 PM
Actually, Harang's peripherals were better in 2008 too. Tough thing when pitching injured, but he has MUCH better control, as good a K rate and has given up about half the number of BB's.

Zambrano is a good pitcher, but if Harang is overpaid, then Z is the poster boy for overpaid.

Few pitchers in the game have demonstrated Zambrano's consistent excellence and durability.

Jpup
07-15-2009, 12:02 PM
Few pitchers in the game have demonstrated Zambrano's consistent excellence and durability.

He ain't the same dude he was in 03, 04, and 05. When he's on he's great, but he is a nut.

TRF
07-15-2009, 12:10 PM
Few pitchers in the game have demonstrated Zambrano's consistent excellence and durability.

Few pitchers in the game can be counted on for his epic meltdowns.

He's durable, but his numbers are in obvious decline. He's closer to a 4.00 era guy than a 2.50 ERA guy, which BTW he never was. And that's one mark of a true ace. But then you think Carpenter is a true ace too, a guy that has not been consistent at anything except DL stints.

Z is a solid #2 in the truest sense of the word, just as Harang is. Volquez and Cueto COULD be #1 starters.In fact, Z has only had one season as good as Volquez 2008 season, That's how good EV was last year. Cueto, who was in need of the ASB more than perhaps any Reds pitcher has had a better season then Z thus far.

As stated before, I'm pretty much with you on Arroyo. But overall, I think you are wrong about the GM's and very much wrong about the current state of Reds pitching.

TheNext44
07-15-2009, 12:22 PM
Walt has spent more than WK, of course. Payroll is same ($73.6m vs. $74.1m), but Wayne was saddled with Jr's untradeable deal-- both in real terms and also in Cast's mind-- whereas Jocketty has no untradeable contracts. If he's paying these guys, it's because he wants to pay them.

WJ also spent way more in draft and in Latin America than anyone before, and got several more new hires than WK.

it's all set up pretty well for WJ. The young talent is SO much better. the contracts are in much better shape. for the time being, Cast has reduced his meddling (like that will last...)

So, do something.

First, Walt had at least one huge untradeable contract, and guess what he did with it? He traded it to the White Sox for a solid set up man. And you think Arroyo's and Cordero's contracts are tradable? Really? Really???? I guess if Griffey's was tradeable, any contract is tradeable.

Second, according to you, Jocketty has done something. He has spent heavily in Latin America and the draft. If he has done this wisely and is has some luck, the Reds will see the payoff of that over the next 2-5 years.

And I think that is the part of Jocketty's philosophy that people are missing. He wants to do to the Reds what he did to the Cards. Slowly and carefully build it into strong organization that is in contention every year, for a decade.

It will take some time, and maybe it will cost the Reds at a chance at the playoffs this year. But if it works like it did in StL, then it will have a nice payoff of a the Reds being in contention every year for a decade. I've already waited 10 years, what's one or two more?

princeton
07-15-2009, 12:33 PM
First, Walt had at least one huge untradeable contract, and guess what he did with it? He traded it to the White Sox


when the contract's in the final month, it's tradeable provided the player is ambulatory. for those previous several years, it was an albatross.

Another problem with moving Jr was owner-worship. Cast didn't want to move him; Cast was a win-nower. Walt has, I hope, a free(r) hand with Cast. We no longer hear all of the losing stops now talk. that's a good thing.

WK did a lot more than WJ has, in spite of being in a much worse situation both in terms of what he could trade and in terms of what he was allowed to trade.

I do have to say that because the Reds were SO bad, there was a bigger spectrum of changes that would have helped. As a team improves, a fewer number of moves will help; everything else is lateral. fortunately for Walt, there are still PLENTY of things to do. So, on with it.


Second, according to you, Jocketty has done something. He has spent heavily in Latin America and the draft. If he has done this wisely and is has some luck, the Reds will see the payoff of that over the next 2-5 years.



Walt gets five years plus the last year-and-a-half to show something? ugh. I'm getting old with this team.

Benihana
07-15-2009, 12:35 PM
First, Walt had at least one huge untradeable contract, and guess what he did with it? He traded it to the White Sox for a solid set up man. And you think Arroyo's and Cordero's contracts are tradable? Really? Really???? I guess if Griffey's was tradeable, any contract is tradeable.

Second, according to you, Jocketty has done something. He has spent heavily in Latin America and the draft. If he has done this wisely and is has some luck, the Reds will see the payoff of that over the next 2-5 years.

And I think that is the part of Jocketty's philosophy that people are missing. He wants to do to the Reds what he did to the Cards. Slowly and carefully build it into strong organization that is in contention every year, for a decade.

It will take some time, and maybe it will cost the Reds at a chance at the playoffs this year. But if it works like it did in StL, then it will have a nice payoff of a the Reds being in contention every year for a decade. I've already waited 10 years, what's one or two more?

Have to disagree with this logic.

Not that I disagree with their intentions or logic, but you will not be seeing any of that Latin American spending payoff in 2, 3, 4, or maybe even 5 years. You have to be a LOT more patient than that.

Furthermore, I might agree about "slowly and carefully building it into a strong organization" over many years if we were talking about a different regime. But we are talking about Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty- and not the 40-year-old Jocketty, but the 59-year old, coming out of retirement Jocketty. I doubt either he or Castellini sees this as a decade-long project.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 12:37 PM
I doubt either he or Castellini sees this as a decade-long project.

Of course they do. Old people dwell on posterity.

TRF
07-15-2009, 12:37 PM
First, Walt had at least one huge untradeable contract, and guess what he did with it? He traded it to the White Sox for a solid set up man. And you think Arroyo's and Cordero's contracts are tradable? Really? Really???? I guess if Griffey's was tradeable, any contract is tradeable.

Second, according to you, Jocketty has done something. He has spent heavily in Latin America and the draft. If he has done this wisely and is has some luck, the Reds will see the payoff of that over the next 2-5 years.

And I think that is the part of Jocketty's philosophy that people are missing. He wants to do to the Reds what he did to the Cards. Slowly and carefully build it into strong organization that is in contention every year, for a decade.

It will take some time, and maybe it will cost the Reds at a chance at the playoffs this year. But if it works like it did in StL, then it will have a nice payoff of a the Reds being in contention every year for a decade. I've already waited 10 years, what's one or two more?


OK, I don't get this. Why does anyone WANT to trade Cordero? I kind of like having a shut down closer. People seem fixated on the Reds as if Lindner and Allen were still running the show, like the payroll needs to be 50 mil or less.

Oh, and WK signed Juan Duran, not Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 12:41 PM
OK, I don't get this. Why does anyone WANT to trade Cordero? I kind of like having a shut down closer. People seem fixated on the Reds as if Lindner and Allen were still running the show, like the payroll needs to be 50 mil or less.

He's great if your payroll is ballooning. But the Reds' is shrinking.


I actually think he may not be untradeable. I certainly hope Walt can turn him into a bat.

TheNext44
07-15-2009, 12:53 PM
Have to disagree with this logic.

Not that I disagree with their intentions or logic, but you will not be seeing any of that Latin American spending payoff in 2, 3, 4, or maybe even 5 years. You have to be a LOT more patient than that.

Furthermore, I might agree about "slowly and carefully building it into a strong organization" over many years if we were talking about a different regime. But we are talking about Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty- and not the 40-year-old Jocketty, but the 59-year old, coming out of retirement Jocketty. I doubt either he or Castellini sees this as a decade-long project.

I completely agree with you on all points.

The 2-5 years was for the draft and Latin players. 2 years for the draft, 5 for the Latin. Should have made that clearer.

And I don't think any GM sees re-building a team as a decade long project. I just meant that the plan is for the Reds to be good for at least a decade. He wants to build a strong foundation that lasts, not just a series of teams that go for it every year at the expense of the overall health of the organization, like they have been for the past 10+ years.

It should only take a 2-3 years max to a team to that level. It took Jocketty one year to get the Cards to the playoffs.

TRF
07-15-2009, 01:03 PM
He's great if your payroll is ballooning. But the Reds' is shrinking.

I actually think he may not be untradeable. I certainly hope Walt can turn him into a bat.

oy flippin vey.

So trade the only guy on the staff with closer stuff, one whose makeup seems ideal for the position to get a guy that you probably should have gotten before the season started, when all it would have cost you is cash.

that's the kind of deck chair shuffling the Reds do NOT need. How about identify areas of need, target better players than are in those positions, whether they are in house or not, then go get them.

You know, the Wayne Krivsky method. Sometimes you will be wrong on the player. WK was with Patterson and Yan for example. It doesn't mean you KEEP him. Yan was jettisoned. Walt kept Patterson.

But you do not trade your closer for a LF bat. 2/3 of this OF is set in stone next year. Bruce in RF, and CF is one of three guys in house. That leaves LF, 3B if EE moves to LF, and he won't and SS.

I don't see it.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 01:13 PM
oy flippin vey.

So trade the only guy on the staff with closer stuff, one whose makeup seems ideal for the position to get a guy that you probably should have gotten before the season started, when all it would have cost you is cash.

that's the kind of deck chair shuffling the Reds do NOT need. How about identify areas of need, target better players than are in those positions, whether they are in house or not, then go get them.

You know, the Wayne Krivsky method. Sometimes you will be wrong on the player. WK was with Patterson and Yan for example. It doesn't mean you KEEP him. Yan was jettisoned. Walt kept Patterson.

But you do not trade your closer for a LF bat. 2/3 of this OF is set in stone next year. Bruce in RF, and CF is one of three guys in house. That leaves LF, 3B if EE moves to LF, and he won't and SS.

I don't see it.

For two shining years, money wasn't an issue for the Reds. I'd like to see what Walt can do with a return to those heady days. It'll require the violence of rearrangement.

jojo
07-15-2009, 01:28 PM
For two shining years, money wasn't an issue for the Reds. I'd like to see what Walt can do with a return to those heady days. It'll require the violence of rearrangement.

What two years were those again?

It seems to me that money is always an issue. To the extent that Wayne went on a spending spree, it was money spent in the future...in essence he bought on farm credit.

bucksfan2
07-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Have to disagree with this logic.

Not that I disagree with their intentions or logic, but you will not be seeing any of that Latin American spending payoff in 2, 3, 4, or maybe even 5 years. You have to be a LOT more patient than that.

Furthermore, I might agree about "slowly and carefully building it into a strong organization" over many years if we were talking about a different regime. But we are talking about Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty- and not the 40-year-old Jocketty, but the 59-year old, coming out of retirement Jocketty. I doubt either he or Castellini sees this as a decade-long project.

LA and the draft are two completely different beasts. The players signed last year during the LA signing period are akin to 2010 HS draft picks. The Draft and LA mature at a different rate. Being active in LA and also Drafting well is a very good way to keep your farm system replenished. You hope that by the time Alonso, Frazier, Wood, Steward, Leake graduate from the minor leagues to the big leagues, that the likes of Rodriguez and Duran will be able to replace their prospect status.

Bob Castellini acted like any first time controlling owner. He got handed the keys to the franchise, saw the team overachieve through the first half, and tried to go all in with a sub par cast. After that season I think Big Bob learned his lesson and has acted in a more prudent manner. As for Jocketty its true that he is 59 but he never really was retired. He got fired by StL and then rehired almost immediately by Jocketty. He wasn't the GM but he was the GM in waiting. I can easily see Jocketty working another 10 years until he is 70.

Off the top of my head Jocketty has made one bad trade in which he was fleeced. Over the course of his tenure as the STL GM, he was able to evaluate the talent and knew which players were keepers and which players he needed to prop up their stats. For example lets pretend that Jocketty likes Wood but thinks he is great trade bait. A dominating Wood would have much more value in AA than a struggling Wood would have in AAA. That really was one of Jocketty's strong suits in STL and I don't think he has lost that ability.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 01:35 PM
What two years were those again?

It seems to me that money is always an issue. To the extent that Wayne went on a spending spree, it was money spent in the future...in essence he bought on farm credit.


Money's never been a bigger issue with this team.

Benihana
07-15-2009, 01:38 PM
Money's never been a bigger issue with this team.

Not true.

Remember John Allen?

princeton
07-15-2009, 01:40 PM
For two shining years, money wasn't an issue for the Reds. I'd like to see what Walt can do with a return to those heady days.

more money is spent now than then.

WK got no bump in year one other than Chris Buckley's salary, got an $8mill bump in year 2, then a $5mill bump in abbreviated year 3. Walt had a $9mill bump, most of which he spent on Alonso and the Latins. He's got the same money this year, looks like, even though salaries have really dropped off, so in effect it's probably another $8mill or so bump.

do something with these Heady Days...

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 01:41 PM
Not true.

Remember John Allen?

There's a difference: Allen and Co. never spent anything. And whatever payroll they got off the books was never re-invested.

So they never budged an inch.

Nowadays the Reds are moving, but they'll need money to get where they're going.

Falls City Beer
07-15-2009, 01:45 PM
more money is spent now than then.

What are the chances Walt gets the okay to spend $50 million on a starter this offseason?

Did you awake as a roach this morning, Mr. Samsa?

REDREAD
07-15-2009, 01:49 PM
I spaced on AGonz. I concede that there's a totally unmoveable contract inherited by Jocketty. kind of a junior-Junior

Cordero is also immovable.

Freel was only movable for another albotross contract (I like Hernandez, but I would not have wanted to sign him to a one year deal at that salary, it was only palatable due to shedding Freel)

Arroyo is borderline immovable... Actually, he is a good analogy to Jr. See Jr, wasn't unmovable. This was proven by the fact that Walt actually did move Jr. Also, there was reliable news that Jr was going to the White Sox a few years prior. Ok, so we can make the argument that Carl did not want Jr traded. Not quite the same case as Arroyo and Cordero.

Wayne killed the payroll by nickle and diming more than one monster contract. Everyone that is up in arms about Taveras/Lincoln should also be upset over Freel, Stanton, Comier, Patterson, etc.. And to their credit, most people have been consistent with this.

In the end, Wayne was given roughly 3 years to turn the team around, and the team got worse in the W-L record every year. I counted on an earlier post, but when you look at last year's opening day roster (not counting DL), there are only 12 or 13 people still on the team. Walt has turned over a lot of bodies. The result is a 500 caliber team, something Wayne never did, although he came close in 2006.

OnBaseMachine
07-15-2009, 01:55 PM
In the end, Wayne was given roughly 3 years to turn the team around, and the team got worse in the W-L record every year. I counted on an earlier post, but when you look at last year's opening day roster (not counting DL), there are only 12 or 13 people still on the team. Walt has turned over a lot of bodies. The result is a 500 caliber team, something Wayne never did, although he came close in 2006.

Krivsky was hired in Febuary of 2006 and fired in April of 2008. That's two years and two months. The Reds are close to .500 because of Krivsky and previous GM's, not because of Walt Jocketty.

REDREAD
07-15-2009, 01:56 PM
WK did a lot more than WJ has, in spite of being in a much worse situation both in terms of what he could trade and in terms of what he was allowed to trade.


How can you say that? Walt started with the exact same cast of characters that Wayne had. Half the opening day team is gone. Granted, some were bad contracts that were eaten before Walt arrived. I agree that under Carl, Wayne might not have been able to trade Jr, but there's no reason to believe Cast wasn't willing to trade Jr. After all, he let Walt do it. Same with Dunn.

Do you think Walt would've ever thought that Castro or Cormier was a key piece to the team? I really doubt it. Walt has already shown that he cares a lot more about defense than Wayne ever did. Wayne liked poor defenders like Castro, Dunn, Keppinger, EdE, Valentine, Bako, etc. Most of those guys are gone now.